Islamic Justice or Talibanisation of Pakistan

#52 masadi

hey masadi,

Don't get so worked up over the quran. It was all made up by mo anyway, as he went along. He made up that whole cock-and-bull story about the winged critter. Don't take it so seriously. You'll feel a lot better. And drink a lot of water.

#73 sattar2

Hey sattar, do you mean "the Quran allows for human intercession" or "mohammed allows for human intercession"?

I mean, isn't it true that mohammed is the one that came up with the quran? Unless of course you believe that he was telling the truth about a winged critter in a cave.

nemesis,

Read my post carefully: The point I have made is that Quran allows for human intercession, period. What kind of intercession, by whom, under what circumstances - is the next issue. But first try to get the basic fact right.

Mullah making mockery of Islam does not justify you or tahmed painting with too wide a brush. Otherwise you may as well argue that religion itself is a curse on mankind. One needs to be careful and not overstate the case.

+++

tahir, who is talking about MGAQ??
Go screw yourself …

#67 Posted by sattar2

"The fundamental issue is : Does Quran make room for intercession, or not? I think the answer is a resounding “yes� …"

You tend to make it an issue of scoring brownie points. Point at issue was whether intercession by the mullas was justified, and under what circumstances. You have unconsciously proved tahmed's point that the kind of intercession by the mullas invites the worst wrath of the God for they are neither prophets, nor retained by the prophet for the job. Just learning a few verses from the holy scripture, understanding them in their own way and behaving as though they are prophets unto themselves, passing fatwas and spreading hatred.

Do you know about the fatwa passed by some mullas against Salman Khan, the bollywood actor? Maulvis have in fact made a mockery of the religion and tahmed has rightly pointed his fingers to their follies.

Re: # 70:
Pee,
"I live in way what I think is right, stuff the book."

And that way is Islam-bashing, right? Do you stuff all your own books the dirty way in a toilet?

Re: # 69

Good to see slavery to an old book. Each trying to prove that he is living per the book.

Why cant you all have a sense of freedom, I live in way what I think is right, stuff the book.

Re: # 68
Stutter-2,

Your incomplete 'intercession' references will soon meet head-on with mine.

I know what you mean, but MGAQ will be found saving his own rear on D-Day, leave alone putting in a good word for you!

In addition to #67 …

masadi, I am not sure if the answer is all that clear cut. Granted, perhaps I, on my own, don’t get to choose who can intercede on my behalf. But Allah granting someone the permission to intercede on my behalf remains a possibility. And this is intercession that tahmed claims does not exist!

And what if Allah grants me the permission to chose someone to intercede on my behalf? I am not sure if I can rule out this possibility, yet.

Furthermore, note that when you pray for someone, arguably you are interceding on their behalf. This suggests that Allah has granted humans some degree of freedom to intercede on each other’s behalf. Whether Allah accepts this intercession or not, depends solely upon Him … and would lead yet to a larger discussion.

Here are a few more quotes from Yusuf Ali’s translation:

�…And those whom they invoke besides Allah have no power of intercession;- only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know (him) …� 43:86

�… No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition? …� 10:3

+++

I don’t know the full answer. But I think that short, absolute statements (“in Islam there is no intercession�) do not hold up when Quran is closely scrutinized and the matter is given more thought. And that’s the larger point I am making …

nemesis (#60), masadi (#61),

Let’s proceed carefully: tahmed has argued that there is no room for intercession, period. I have argued that Quran makes room for intercession … and I have quoted to validate this.

The next issue is: Who can intercede, on whose behalf, under what circumstances. This is a lager issue which requires more digging into.

The fundamental issue is : Does Quran make room for intercession, or not? I think the answer is a resounding “yes� …

Re: # 63
No body can enlighten you my brother in humanity unless you yourself decide to shun away your blinders. Realise your imortance to yourself and begin to value it.

Re: # 63
"open minded and musla!!!!!"

Why, is having another part of your anatomy OPEN (apart from the brain) better?

Rejoice in what you have NGK!

Re: # 59
Laddu,
"...it is YOU who needs to re-read the Quran and Hadith."

Like maybe your own translation, guru-dev?

"Intercession is one of the most important pillars of mullah Islam because it cuts through the vile acts and banditry of momeens and makes them eligible for the special places in Jannah."

I will post an i-log later to answer this intercession merchandizing in detail. Ta..da..with nothing but the Qur'an as my arguement!

Happy, dil meiN Laddu phootay kia?

Re: # 58
open minded and musla!!!!!

#60 nemesis had a point, tahmed is too thickly enslaved to the white man to be able to grasp it.

Sattar sahib you have to dive a little deeper into the Quran.

2:48, and 2:123 completely close the shafaa deal "bottom up" that is. You cannot choose or ask anyone for intercession period.

God does the deciding about "intercession" and that involves only evidence as is quite clear from 43:86 to justify his judgment upon the person involved because he is a "just" God.

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

tahmed,

In your utter disgust to sattar, you have perhaps not cared to read what he has quoted careully. He said,

"Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? …� (2:255)"

Did you notice the words 'except as he permitteth'? I think in fact he is proving your point.