God of Many Needs

Reply to #17

No attribute of God ever discontinues. So if Quran and Islam says that God reveals Himself to humans then it must be true before Holy Prophet SAW. In fact Quran confirms that as far back as huamnity is God always revealed Himself to humankind.

Quran confirms that religion of Abraheem and all of those before him was Islam. "When his (Abraheem_ Lord said to him, Aslim(Submit), he said, 'I have submitted to the Lord of the worlds." (2L132)

Though Quran made one distinction which with a similitude is like this. Before time of Holy Prophet SAW it was the beginging days of lunar month. Whereas the power of revelation through Quran is like Moon on the fourteenth day.

There are all sort of personalties in this world. People of different observations and experiences. Some of them put their experiance in poetry. Now there poetry can be as much authentic as much their observation and experiance is.

There is another aspect which is of Creator and created. For example a poet arrange words and make a poem, then in a way it is Pseudo creation of his mind and this creation is as good as his mind is. For example this famous poem of Khwaja Ghulam Farid sung by Pathani Khan "Mera Kaaba, Qabla, Masjid, Mandar, Ilahm bhi too" leads one to the mind of Khawaja Ghulam Farid, that who that was purified by God, to express his observations and feelings in such a beautiful form. We know that after this poem, Khawaja Ghalam Farid did not stoped saying his prayer, or observing Saum or he did not started offering his prayers in a Mandar infront of Vishnu. It was just a beautiful poetic expresion from him, and to make such an expression one has to be of spititual calibre of Khawaja Ghulam Farid.

There is other side of the coin also, which Quran says, "And as for the poets -- it is the erring ones who follow them. Does you not see how they wander distracted in every valley. And that they say what they practise not?" (26:225-227) Here valley can be valley of wrong thougths or incomplete observations etc.

Re: # 16

you are using the old fashioned argument ... it was Iqbal who said

"agar kitaab se mumkin naheen firaagh ke tu;
kitaab khwaan hai magar saahib-e kitaab naheen"

problem is, if one keeps telling oneself something for long enough, in a repetitive fashion, and closes one's eyes to everything else around one, all of one's 'arguments' are simply for "reaffirmation" and NOT for critique ... the sad outcome of that is that one actually starts believing in it!

you keep forgetting the history of 'asceticism' is a lot older than Islam .. or even any of the so-called Abrahamic traditions

Belief in continuation of Ilham or Kashaf might appear strange to some and some might jump to the conclusion that such revelations have been stopped after Holy Prophet SAW. As if God has stopped talking with humans at a certain point in time.

Please consider Islamic history first before Jumping to any conclusion. Abdul Qadir Jalani RA and Mujadad Alaf Sani and others have reported that verses of Quran have been directly revelaed to them. This is not a matter of disrespect for Holy Prophet SAW, rahter it is a unique respect of Holy Prophet that only in his ummat(nation) are people who are recepient of revelation of God. Moreover those verses are not any new verses but rather verses of Quran and their revelation only strengthen the hearts of those who receive them. This is the secret by which Tree of Isalm is always green, as Quran points out "Do not you see how Allah sets forth the smilitudes of a good word? (13:25)It is like a good tree, whose root is firm and whose branches reach into heaven"

This is especially problem for those to understand, who think Quran is all literal word. This is in contrast to those mis-guided sufis who think all the things are similitudes and nothing is literal. Whereas the acutal road is somewhere in between, basic things are literal which everyone can understand according to their capacity and Islam ordain everyone to observe those literal rituals. But then there are finer grains which God reveals on those He wishes and such revelation does not make them arrogant.

Re: # 13; quin

like I said, I have no issues with your understanding (or its lack) of the nature of 'God' ... and you are welcome to it if it makes you a better/happier person

what I do question is you presenting this 'persona' as the God of the Qur'an ... He is NOT that (the God of the Quran)whatever you might think or say

take care

This is a problem for those who are denier of "Ilham" or "Kashaf" or "Ilqa" or "true dreams" or revelation in this age.

All the attributes of God are for ever, none of them discontinue at any time.

One attribute is "Al-Ghani", God does not need to show Himself. If there is need it is for man to discern his Creator. And if God fullfills this need of some, to whoever He wishes then it is out of His benovalence and mercy and He is still "Al-Ghani".

Even to those to whom God reveals Himself, that revelation is partial. As God is also "Al-Latif wa Al-Khabir". As man has a limit to his capacities so is there a limit to how much he can see God.

Condition of those to whom God reveals is not like some of the insane Sufis, those who show no respect for Quran and Islam. But not all the Sufis are like this, rahter actual Sufis are those who experience improvement in their faith and observance of True injections of Quran and Islam, as taught to us by Holy Prophet SAW.

One example is Khawaja Ghalam Farid, when he says "Mera Ashiq bhi too, Meera Yar bhi too". In fact for such people center-point of all thier activities become God and at the same time they are true rold models as far as observance of Islam is concerned. Their condition draws attention to this verse of Quran," And of men there is he who would sell himself to seek the pleasure of Allah; and Allah is Compassionate to His servants" (2:208)

Re: # 12 You sir, might be playing word games, and I did enjoy your playfulness, but I am not just playing game with words. You pre-suppose too much in your axioms; then stretch too much your argument - in every possible direction.

(who the hell is talking about fairies and santa ?)

I am using words to create a metaphor to express a truth. That truth can be accessed by one with a heightened sense of poetic expression. Only if you would let go of rigidity of logical mind and your obsession with dogma.

(who the hell is talking about 'absolutism' here? and I don't know what you mean by 'absolute', maybe you would care to enlighten us)

As I said, you seem to have become obsessed with 'dogma' and 'organized religion', you too fight dogma with dogma. And should I add, it makes little difference to me if you keep fighting dogma with dogma or have peace within.

Regards to you too

Re: # 11

I am simply playing the same word games as you ... you have selected a certain collection of words to convey something .. whatever that is ... and I am using exactly those (yours not mine) to convey the a very different message

it concludes that nothing is absolute but relative ... and if there is 'no absolute truth', it strikes at the heart of religious dogma ... which does thrive on absolutism ... other than a dogma within the confines of an 'organised religion', you may believe in the tooth fairy or santa clause ... makes very little difference to me

Regards

Re: # 8 logic based on a false axiom will lead to false inference. There is no way to test your axiom. So there is no way to judge validity of your argument.

Your are sir, presuming what a god should be or should not be.

Interestingly, I am not even talking about God.

"... kuchh na samjhay khuda karay koi" - Ghalib

your car is far luckier than yourself .... it can be fixed

MM sahib,

Since quite unsurprisingly you're in the unsafe hands of the one and only Down-The-Underwearer, I must rush off to get my car fixed. Every now and then its fuel supply line attracts sufi-kachra sediments.

Sentiments express.

a God of ANY (let alone MANY) need is no God at all ... God HAS to be beyond all needs

... the NEEDY can't be the divine ... hence, ironically, by applying the above logic, you don't really believe in God

Well done!! .. you are a free man now quin sahib

Re: # 6
MM sahib,

"sufis and scholars like the one I mentioned were (and are) the ones who were (and are) the channel for Quran's light."

I've checked them out eons ago, any more so-called heavy-weights?

Those who went contrary to the prescribed Qur'anic teachings and wandered about as conjurers/bachelors are NOT my guiding light. They may be for you and the entire sufi-loving west, and that's fine with me; the final matter will not be settled on Chowq pages I assure you.

In order to repel the vicious attackers here, you need to give that sufi cloak away to (let me think now)....a sufi!

Regards.

Re: # 5 sufis and scholars like the one I mentioned were (and are) the ones who were (and are) the channel for Quran's light. Rest was (and is) an exercise in empire building - in its various guises.

Re: # 4
Thanks for the quick response.

"The literalist will never understand Mansour's Inal Haq. Nor Ibn Arabi's inclusiveness."

Perhaps a piece on Mansur the magician and Ibn Arabi's mumbo-jumbo will appear on these doomed pages sooner than expected.

Video killed the radio-star, sufism killed the once dynamic Islam.

Re: # 3 I was referring to the Board you referred to where 'Dubious poetic-licenses can get cancelled'.

Anyway, you won't get it. One thing however I must say. Letters or words cannot stand for the reality. How they can. They are symbols, portals, access points, images; and if you start worshiping them, they become your idols. That is what they become. Idols. Then all the humanity goes down the drain, because life is turned into slavery. That was the precise reason Prophet smashed the idols of Arabia.

And then the irony sets in. ... ....

If anyone thinks saying 'Khuda Hafiz' makes you less of a Muslim, then you are committing idolatry. If you start worshiping words, any words, you are committing idolatry. If you are substituting Word for Reality, you are committing idoltry.

The literalist will never understand Mansour's Inal Haq. Nor Ibn Arabi's inclusiveness.