Let Me Count the Ways I Love You

Your snide remark regarding Prince Charles goes to the core of the male attitude to wives. Looks fade. Inner beauty doesn't. Men can't seem to understand why one of the most eligible men in the world chose companionship, shared interests and a love that had endured, over a trophy wife . . . the empty choice of most men worried about their libido. Clearly that was never a concern for them.
Men and women can have many kinds of relationships, but the intimacy of marriage isn't one easily shared. A happy and successful marriage takes a lot of hard work . . . not a lot of wives. A lot of wives just stokes a male's ego and deprives women and children of what should be theirs.

update to #124 Looks like the GM CEO's investment in the coiffure did not do the trick either. He is now joining hamidm looking for a job in Utah.

hamidm #123 The GM CEO supported a great coiffure indeed.

Re: # 121

masadi mian,

..... have you seen the nails and coiffures on these wlefare mommas !!!? ....... high fashion like that does not come cheap !

your only friend,

hamidm

hamidm: how about the welfare kings of detroit - the ones who drive out to the airport..in order to fly in the comfort of their executive jets, hat in hand, to beg for welfare payments??

Hamid writes "au contraire, these fat women with half a dozen fat kids have it better than most of us who have to run around like plantation workers trying to make a decent wage .."

This image of the welfare queen was constructed during the Reagan era as the sob cut welfare, blamed individuals, stole from the public to give to military industries by building up debt and used gutter language and racist bigotry to define enemies- may God damn his soul. That said, if those women with children living in extreme poverty enjoy a great lifestyle why don't you encourage your daughters to adopt that lifestyle if it is that easy. The fact is neither is their life easy nor do they live in "luxury", the jobs that are "open" to them are minimum wage, not full time hours and require transportation that in many cases cuts into the very low wages they have, day care is not available at those wages and if it is it is very low quality, schools in those neighborhoods are crumbling and you get sick of eating cheese after a while. Get some goddamned morals....

TNITC masadi

Re: # 106

masadi mian,

.... i don't understand much of what you are saying, but i think you are winning this argument against kulharee ...... however, i disagree with your contention that the porch sitting welfare mamas are somehow being exploited - au contraire, these fat women with half a dozen fat kids have it better than most of us who have to run around like plantation workers trying to make a decent wage ......... getting that government cheese delivered to your front door beats the heck out of driving to the airport at five in the morning like your friend ............

your only friend in this wide world,

hamidm

Masadi Sahib, Instead of red-flagging my harmless post, can you put the two into proper contexts? Let’s see if you are against yourself, which you proved below. One of the arguments you are trying to bat aint gonna fly, no matter how you look at it. That is really sad.

Masadi, is this you are referring to? Get hold of yourself. If you think this is stealing from you, I take my hat off. I wish you thought and processed information like this.

#83 Posted by FerozQutabshahi on March 28, 2009 9:01:55 pm
Re #79
A value judgment? You better believe it. Otherwise why bother to argue against it? Masadi Sahib are you suggesting that the country where it is outlawed has placed women to a lower totem? Are you suggesting that women have a less chance of legal protection in case of abandonment in Turkey than they do in Saudi Arabia? I think absolutely opposite hold the truth. Since a woman is seen as an object in some societies, she is made to feel that she needs protection. I think it is a bit too demeaning to suggest to women that they need legal protection more than men do. I think now you are getting on a slippery slope. I am surprised that female Chowkies have not joined in the discussion. Well, we have Hamid Sahib, which is just as chicky.

Re: # 116 Masadi Sahib, and what exactly I am being accused of here? I think you are one who is pissing in 10 different directions. Now also cut/paste where I used the argument that remotely resembles yours. You are really acting childish now.

This was the post that Kulharee copied the protection idea from after reading it and then reading the next few posts and responding to RiazHaq and then lying shamelessly here on this post

---------------------------------

#70 Posted by masadi on March 28, 2009 6:53:03 pm
Urstruly to Riashaq, "who incinerated 2000 school girls with phosphores bombs.."

What is tragic in the mullah's use of this incident is the flip side of what was tragic in Bush using the "liberate woman" slogan in order to invade Afghanistan. Both of these thugs consider women to be worthy of contempt, both oppress women and want them to be child bearers and khansamas and nannies- yet when it comes to their ulterior motive they tout examples of the injustice to women and children because in their perverted world view, women and children need men's "protection". Go to hell morons and take your dirty protection with you- hear this message coming loud and clear from all women of the world that understand your shenanigans....

TNITC masadi

Not only did you read my post you responded to RiazHaq when he complained about it, now you two timing liar you are further exposed

http://chowk.com/interacts/15647

#113 Kulharee, you lying dishonest person, don't try to suggest that I haven't given enough reason in the previous posts because I have more than anything you on the other hand have been able to muster with your value laden BS. And yes you do read my posts quite diligently and yes you did copy my idea about protection being a patriarchal ideal. You are just lying as you usually do,

TNITC masadi

Masadi Sahib, more of the same BS from you. I didn’t even read your argument in the other thread, so stop being an idiot and accusing me of something that I don’t even know about. Someone has to be insane for wanting to steal your ideas or your lack of logic. All you have is a Phannay Khan attitude, which will surely take you fairly high in your career. You still ducked what I asked repeatedly, and that is, how does polygamy help women. EXPLAIN. Forgot about the big bad USA just for like 10 minutes, we know US is evil.

Kulharee #111 considering that I have provided ample reasons while you have provided ranting and nothing else, your demand for "empirical evidence" is quite pathetically laughable, and where I have in even one post suggested a biblical or Quranic quote to support my assertions? On the other hand you dishonestly STOLE my post about women not needing men's protection and applied it to my post ignoring its context, and spare me this ceteris paribus BS from dimwit economists who don't have a clue about anything. My support or not, polyandry would not work in capitalist societies that are militaristic and hence patriarchal- since women are the ones that are labor segmented, glass ceilinged and given unequal access to the structure, they are the ones objectified whose worth is determined based on their marital status. Change the entire structure of the society and then we can talk of alternative forms, the way US society is setup polygamy would result in a juster more egalitarian society than monogamy. My victory over your dimwittedness is complete...

TNITC masadi

Re # 106 Masadi Sahib, hold your victory speech for a little while. Not to fast my friend. You may believe that your mission is accomplished, I think you are far from there. So explain to me how exactly, and what mechanism under which polygamy takes place, empowers women. For the purpose of this discussion we will concentrate on Islamic countries only where polygamy is legal. Site empirical research by recognized entities. Don’t give examples from cock and bull Biblical stories. Is it plausible for me to suggest that since you support polygamy, you also support polyandry. This in absence of ceteris paribus.

Beej Bihari was standing in front of the mirror with his eyes closed.
His wife asked what you are doing?
Beej said, "I am looking at the mirror to find out how do I look like while sleeping."

In #106... suggesting that I mean that women need greater legal protection than men is simply BS and ignores the contextual structure based on which I was stating it....

Not to mention the fact that I dismissed the protection business in my earlier post on another thread to Urstruly, which was then picked up by this plagiarist Kulharee and he turns it around and uses it on the person who first stated it here. Talk about dishonest morons....

TNITC masadi

Beej Bihari's wish :when I die, I would like to die like my grandpa Bihari who died peacefuly in his sleep not screaming like all the passengers in
the Bus he was driving..

I rest my case and with that I declare victory over the hypocrites and the ignorant bigots like Qutabshahi....

TNITC masadi

Hamid writes "you have the makings of a fine polygamist if you can ever get within ten feet of a living breathing woman ........ "

Au contraire my ignorant acquaintance, women find me quite attractive....simply because most so-called macho men (unlike myself) happen to be jerks.

Kulharee writes "A value judgment? You better believe it. Otherwise why bother to argue against it? Masadi Sahib are you suggesting that the country where it is outlawed has placed women to a lower totem?"

If you are using value judgments in order to analyze a phenomenon then you bias the evaluation and reach something other than the truth. Yes I am suggesting through evidence that countries that have outlawed polygamy are hypocritical and by outlawing it, they have placed women at greater risk of being exploited because the underlying structure hasn't changed. You BS attempt at suggesting that I mean that women need greater legal protection than men is simply BS and ignores the contextual structure based on which I was stating it. The fact that your model society concentrates poverty among single women with children (the feminization of poverty) bears witness to the fact that without legal protection (when the man absconds) women become poor and extremely poor in a capitalist/patriarchal society like the US and might I add much worse than in Saudi Arabia- is there any comparison on living without food and shelter to "not being able to drive". Please say that you hold both to be equal, so I can conclude that you're a damn fool

TNITC masadi

Re: # 99

kulharee mian,

.... i don't know anbout the rest of it, but i had a full bath built in the basement which i claim as my own and that's where is do most of my serious reading and thinking ...... sometimes i just stand there looking at a picture of venetian canals and then walk away without putting the seat down ....... allah is great and life is good ........

.... but life could be better if i could emulate my grandpa khan baba who had two houses, two wives, two bedrooms and a bathroom to spare ..... my grandmas lived across the street from each other on gurdat singh road in quetta and they got along great even though my grandma ama bibi was twenty years younger than baju gul ..... ama bibi married khan baba when she was thirteen (or eleven, depending on who you believe) and she was the happiest woman i have ever met ........ khan baba was even happier !

..... i think you are being awfully mean and bigoted by calling for a ban on polygamy - stop acting like that homophobe judge scalia ..........

Re: # 102

Sir, that's a relatively easy problem to address. Apparently, you are still resisting the solution that stares so starkly in your face and has always been there.

You need to learn to do things in a different way -- the new way!

You need to learn some new habits (tidiness, for example) and discard some old ones (laziness, for example)!

You need to be able to listen attentively (with the TV set off) and should have the quickness to agree immediately!

You need to develop tolerance for viewpoints that differ from yours. You need to realize that turning 180 degrees is not as difficult as it is made out to be.

You need to have the strength of character to admit when you are wrong, as you invariably will be.

You need to appreciate good cooking and you need to realize that all cooking is good cooking.

What I am preaching to you is that you need to learn to submit to the will of the all mighty!

In case of polygamy, of course, you have to also do all of the above for all those partners and reconcile your various acts with each other -- clearly, not everyone's forte.

Re: # 101

You sick old man. Get out, you stink with your rotten intelligentsia and boring sense of humour. Even your grand children have dumped you.

Beej Sahib, you probably have a nice size bathroom where not every single inch of the sink space has been taken by your sopuse. And oh yeah, the putting the seat down debate.

Re: # 97

Jojeya dear, I must say that your specimen of...

[Sex and marriage. Whats the fuckin relationship with love???]

... is the finest example of a question that answers itself, so eloquently too! Bravo.

Re: # 99

Sir, I would be the last person to intrude upon your fantasy world but the idea of a couple having seprate bathrooms makes as much sense as the same having separate bedrooms.

Re#90 Hamid Sahib. I would like to live in a non polygamous society. One woman for every man and one man for every woman. Nice house with two car garage, his and her own walk-in closet (oh the dreamer in me), his and her separate bath room ( no such luck).

Is that too much to ask?

Re: # 96

Thanks Feroz. Makes sense. Any inquisitive mind would like to explore such questions... these are kinda xenos paradox

Baba ji, koi kaam ki baat hai tu karen warna rasta naapeen. Chaltey baney. Go play with ur grand children

Joieya

Re: #94

When I submitted the article, I titled it “Let me count the ways I love YOUS� it was a play on a very famous poem of Elizabeth Browning, an early 19th century English poet. Her work has inspired many. I think the Chowk Staff inadvertently thought that I misspelled YOU as YOUS and they took the S off or may be ran my work through a spellchecker. This is how I know to mock a practice, but I can see your point. YOUS sounds so much better when discussing polygamy. I think.

Re: # 94

Jojeya, I am sure the somebody here would like to explain the relationship to you but s/he may get into trouble because of your status as a minor in age.

Sex and marriage. Whats the fuckin relationship with love???
you morron

Re: # 92

Jojeya, I am sure the author would like to explain it to you but if he did so he may get into trouble because of your status as a minor in age.

I dont find any relationship between the title and text of this article! somebody help me....

Re: # 90

[i still don't get why anyone would want to ban polygamy ]

I believe one strong reason is that one out of every five men is already bald and there is no reason to make the remaining four undergo the same ordeal!

........ i still don't get why anyone would want to ban polygamy - what is next? ... oral sex? ..... you guys need to stop acting like the pope and that homophobe, justice scalia ........ if a guy can handle multiple women and they don't mind sharing his bed, it is none of your business .......

...... just out of curiosity, i checked out a few furniture stores in salt lake city but didn't see anything bigger than a standard king size bed ...... so they are not having as much fun as you guys think ........... it is a shame

Re: # 88

[Did chowk staff unplug your loudspeaker again]

Masadi miaN is fully self-propelled and has the stamina of a rhino. He needs no batteries nor any outside sources of power.

If only the world could figure out a way to harness the magical chemical reactions therein, the energy crisis would immediately become a faded memory from the past, something to be told our children's children and referred to (with fear) as tales from the pre-Masadi era.

Masadi miaN, I don't think Tahmed is appreciative enough of your enormous and unparalled value to this site. I have seen few such ingrate individuals (with the possible exception of the Manto, even who apparently finally saw the light, thanks to your efforts, and is now probably reclused somewhere, tearing his hairs and pondering the finer complexities of life!).

Masadi #68 writes "testing"

Did chowk staff unplug your loudspeaker again???

#86..Urstruly, HP aka Hasho is able to look after himself. You hadn't guessed that one?

Re: # 74 I don't want to interact at this board. Hasho seems to be a decent and learned guy, I just wanted to give him heads up, before a rancid mirzai like yourself would drag him down to your level. Get an education moron, preferably from our resident roos ke chaprasi - he seems to be educating everybody.

Re: # 83 Mr. F.Q.....Sir, women's position depends on time and location and where she resides and she just like man must follow law of land. That is value judgement I feel.
Please note that women need man for protection all her life. When she is child she needs protection given by father, when she becomes woman she needs protection from husband. When she is old she needs help and protection from her husband or if he is dead help from ther son. It is not that for man.Women are making choices all time that is reason good looking women marry ugly men. Women marry for different reasons than man.Women marry any ugly even if he is bad as women like bad men if they are wealthy , famous or good looking. As bad man provides good protection, also they feel if she dies then bad man will marry other but will protect her children so legacy will go on and she will be living for ever that way. So women think different way more think not romantically , men are hopeless and just look for beauty and some bad stuff etc.Also in our place if real powerful man has only one wife people start rumors about this strength. Any way generally so called oppressed women are more happy in life than liberated women who are aggressive against manhood and general menfolk for no reason. I do not have good idea about west but read 80% men there also beat women if they do not follow lead of man.
And here my observation hardly 70% men beat their women.Not much difference even after liberation achieved by women. I really have no good idea I never beat my wife or daughters any time , but they all troubled me lot, they used to feel too highly about themselves but never made a rupee in life.At times I used to get very angry about their stupidity now all are gone it just miserable and miss them all and now lady of house left is only my cat.What a life.
Good day.

Kulharee:

Masadi mian is self proclaimed bachelor of unknown preference. This discussion is theoretical, unless it is straight out of Mills.

Re #79
A value judgment? You better believe it. Otherwise why bother to argue against it? Masadi Sahib are you suggesting that the country where it is outlawed has placed women to a lower totem? Are you suggesting that women have a less chance of legal protection in case of abandonment in Turkey than they do in Saudi Arabia? I think absolutely opposite hold the truth. Since a woman is seen as an object in some societies, she is made to feel that she needs protection. I think it is a bit too demeaning to suggest to women that they need legal protection more than men do. I think now you are getting on a slippery slope. I am surprised that female Chowkies have not joined in the discussion. Well, we have Hamid Sahib, which is just as chicky.

Re: # 79

masadi mian,

..... i don't have the foggiest idea what you are trying to say, but it does sound rather scholarly, so i agree with you ...... you have the makings of a fine polygamist if you can ever get within ten feet of a living breathing woman ........

Well actually the "Evil primitive practice" is keeping the woman as mistress. This is in practice since time immemorial.

Marriage is relatively a new phenomenon!

Re: # 78

kulharee mian,

...... on a serious note, i truy believe that there is nothing wrong with polygamy as long as the people who enter into this type of living arrangement are consenting adults ...... repeat - consenting adults ..... the same argument applies to homosexuality, polyandry and other alternative lifestyles ........ as long as there are no children or sheep involved it is none of our business what people do in their bedrooms ....... now, it is different if fifteen year old girls from madras or salt lake city are being forced into marriage with seventy year old bedouins or ranchers ........ after twenty three years of marriage i have come to the conclusion that monogamy can be very monotonous ........ zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Kulharee writes "evil primitive practice"

A value judgment based on no facts that can directly link it to women's status compared to monogamy which merely whores women to the men they are married to for property transmission and consolidation, and is hypocritical because the proponents of it follow serial monogamy and kind of polygamy that keeps women out of legal protection in the case of abandonment and is a projection of monogamy's tendency to whore women as it is practiced in the West...

TNITC masadi

#76, Pandhiani - Why are you so insistent on making this a discussion about Mukhtaran Mai? It’s not even about Pakistani laws about polygamy. I beg you to read the article again as I suggested earlier. It is about the practice of Polygamy wherever it takes place. Laws should be made to protect everyone, even if only a minuscule segment of the society is being impacted by an evil primitive practice. If only 1/100th of a percent practices anthropophagy doesn’t mean that Papua and Congo should protect their right to eat people.

Masadi Sahib, by religiously perverted I implied �Royally, and of extreme energy�. Islam was never meant. I choose my words carefully, you should too. Now let’s hear some thoughts about how the Polygamy can be outlawed. It is in most of the world.

Polygamy is better for the redistribution of wealth as well compared to monogamy especially where women are given right of property ownership and within the household they can trump men's power through collusion.
----
First it was the author of this article who had no clue abt what goes on in the world and specifically in Pakistan and now we have another extreme. There are less than one percent people in Pakistan that are polygamist and a minuscule percentage of the one percentage has the kind of property that can have the kind of social impact that Mr. Asadi is talking about.

The only thing that can be in polygamist favor is that they provide legal cover to the women they marry. In the rest of the world, where polygamy is not legal or is not accepted socially, it takes many efforts and years in the legal system for the women to get legitimate rights for them and any kids that are conceived in the either one off sexual relationship or some other temporary relations where the woman is invariably referred to as a mistress.

Both sides have some merits and demerits but claiming that polygamy is good amounts to taking a contrarian approach and nothing else.

In Pakistan, the moneyed class and especially some landowners from the backward areas tend to marry again. There are several reasons for that one being; the first marriage is often imposed upon young children to save the property. One good example was ZAB himself. His most enlightened father, who held several prominent positions during the British days and had special relationship with the colonialist, forced his son to marry in the family at a tender age.

However, generally the polygamy problem does not have a major social impact on the society. The things that impact the society are mostly rape and kidnapping of the young girls and sometime forcible marriage to the kidnappers. After these girls are recovered, they are quickly married to someone to remove the scars of forced abduction and rape after a pseudo Nikah.

Comparing Mai’s rape and her attempt to have a legitimate married life, is just pathetic. Her marriage should never be used to launch a movement against the polygamy. Rape is the biggest blot a woman can have in Eastern societies and that unfortunate black mark persists as long as the woman lives. Marriage provides her a shield, perhaps in name only, but still is better than what she was going to face in her village.

She should be praised for her efforts to rehabilitate herself.

Kulharee to the mullah "Only a religiously perverted mind will think of bhangi, choorah, and jamadars as any less of human beings...."

Once again you reveal your perversion. The bhangi, choorah and jamadar are given status based on the position they fill in a structure of employment hierarchy that describes capitalist production and not a "religious mindset". Capitalism has removed the corporate work from house work, relegated the devalued housework only to women and thereby devalued their status. It takes a perverted capitalist mind (which most of these mullahs possess, they don't have a clue about the egalitarianism of Islam) that talks of churas and bhangis as less than human , and not religion....However since you are a pervert yourself you wont understand....
TNITC masadi

Only a religiously perverted mind will think of bhangi, choorah, and jamadars as any less of human beings. May be that’s what the scripture has taught some people. No good. A choorah will never lower himself to a Mulla level.

Turly Sahib, what else do you have to say about polygamy? Do you approve of it?

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FQ

Very well said, thoroughly enjoyed your article and 100% agreed.

thanks

arif

tahmed to hamid "hamidm: did you get any traffic tickets in Utah confirming your memebership of the white race?"

There is no such thing as a "white" race. In fact there is no such thing as a "race" unless socially constructed by the white man to grant himself undue privilege and power...

TNITC masadi

I had sent the following to Majumdar to post when I was banned, here is what I had written in response to that dimwit Kulharee...

"Maj sahib,

Please inform friends and enemies that I have been banned again and will return to reply to Kulharee's BS. Also inform him that polygamy that is brought under legal control with rights established for women is much better than the serial monogamy and extramarital affairs that are widespread in the hypocritical so-called monogamous culture of the West. Polygamy is better for the redistribution of wealth as well compared to monogamy especially where women are given right of property ownership and within the household they can trump men's power through collusion. On the other hand gay sex is harmful in that its political use for boundary maintainence as in the US strengthens gender inequality through promotion of a particular family form as "normal". One wouldn't expect Kulharee the illiterate to dig deeper than the BS slogans of the US elite..."

free again

testing

Hasho Sahib, I am almost certain that if you read this article a few times, you will begin to realize that it discusses that “where the laws of the land are tilted in favor of men and supported by scripture, women will continue to occupy subservient position in those societies". Honestly it is beyond me how you can possibly think that this is an insult to Mukhtaran Mai. The issue of Polygamy is lot bigger than Mukhtaran Mai. Quite frankly what is disgusting is someone not wanting such instances (including her gang rape) publicized so women can be kept in their place in some backward sections of Pakistan. Polygamy should be outlawed as it is outlawed in most of the world (including Turkey). Saying that the Law makes it very difficult for it to take place is not an intelligent argument if one wishes to take either position on this issue.

Re: # 65

hasho mian,

.... i think it is incumbent upon us to bring up the 'ahmedi stature' in every discussion with the true believers ...... this is just to remind them that they are a bunch of bigots and that anything they say has has little or no credibility ......

Just wondering if my being an Ahmadi Muslim upsets you.

---
You are the one who brings up his Ahmedi stature in every discussion. I did not refer to it in any of my posts. However, I object to your making fun of a victim(MM) by writing an article relating to her personal affairs and you did not even fact check your claims on polygamy laws in Pakistan.

The problem with you is the that anyone other than an ahmedi is not a victim for you. He/she are just objects to make fun or ridicule their plight and the horrible circumstances they might be in.

Throughly disgusting!

#52 Posted by hamzaad on March 28, 2009 12:45:09 am

Is it true that you copied pasted expressions from a blogger and then AlphaNull exposed it?
---

Badzaat, Are you talking abt the same alephnull or A-lun/Algay who wrote a precis of Richard Dwakins book abt the Meme Complex and presented that his own ideas without blinking an eye? Must be your guru!

Re: # 62

tahmed mian,

..... i know that you have found another 'cause' to fight for now that the droopy-eyed pco-1 judge has been reinstated, but you don't have to pick on women who don't mind sharing their man with other women ....... let's not forget that good folks like our prophet (pbuhahc) and abraham kept a well stocked stable of fillies and a few nags

anil: as mormon jehadi, hamidm could conduct cross-border terrorism on nevada brothels!!

Re: # 58

kulharee,

.... you are right ... mormons are more confusing than mohammedans..... for example, you can't buy a drink without buying food! ..... but here is the kicker - they won't pour you a double but will mix you a martini straight up! ......... a lot better than moralizing mozlems like tahmed ......

...... let us legalize polygamy and get over it

Hamidm sahib is converting to Mormon. He would become their jihadi, and would not tolerate any criticism. His cave is by the Salt Lake.

#58 kulharee: Morewoman will make a Moreman out of Hamidm!!

Hamid Sahib, don’t pours Salt on our wounds. Did you also notice one blonde with 4 or 5 Men and 5 or 6 naughty children? Mormon is such a confusing religion, why don’t they call it what it is, Morwoman.

hamidm: did you get any traffic tickets in Utah confirming your memebership of the white race?

Re: # 54

tahmed,

..... like i always say, you are a self-righteous and pompous ass!

..... all i can tell you is that the mormons must be doing something right - the place is booming with new construction everywhere, the temples are grand and the women are beautiful ........ besides, with four percent unemoployment that is the only place where i could find a gig so that i don't have to hang out with morons like you all day .......

..... i think i have finally found a religion i like .....

feroz...
"MukhtaraN Mai ties the knot; she married the constable who guarded her after her tragic and horrifying ordeal. Except the man that she married was already married...."

This is not a big deal!!! The man is already married and that lady wants to marry him, to be his second wife!!!!

I can provide her a better option....
Don't marry at all and join some convent as nun...that is nice life....

hamidm: you went to bed with three or four blonde women and a half dozen well-behaved children? And all at the same time!!! I knew there was something weird going on in Salt Lake City, but this seems illegal and immoral not to mention fattening!!

.......... you guys are so full of cow dung!

..... i spent all last week in salt lake city and wherever i went for lunch i saw three or four beautiful blonde women sitting at big tables with ten or twelve beautiful and well behaved children ........ it was a scene to warm the cockles of my heart .......

..... stop being such prudes! .... it is none of our business to tell people what they can or cannot do in bed.........

.... the only thing i am curious about is whether the mormons get in bed with all their wives at the same time .... just curious ......... next week when i am back in salt lake i will ask and let you guys know on saturday ....... till then, mind your own business !

Hasho,

Is it true that you copied pasted expressions from a blogger and then AlphaNull exposed it? What was the name of the blogger? kaka would like to read him/her..

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if you tell me where you went to school, I will give you mine. So you attended university of Googlia, right?

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Sorry the Muslim Family laws was enacted in 1961 and not in 1963.

When someone does not have knowledge, he would resort to abuses.
The laws were made in 1963 and in Urdu they are called Ailli Qawaneen or the family laws.

You certainly have no clue abt Pakistan and what goes on there.
A little google search would always help the ignorants.
http://www.vakilno1.com/saarclaw/pakistan/muslim_family_laws_ordinan ce.htm

Here is the section about Polygamy.
Get some education The fake diploma from LSE does not diminish your ignorance.

6. Polygamy.
(1) No man, during the subsistence of an existing marriage, shall except with the previous permission in writing of the Arbitration Council, contract another marriage, nor shall any such marriage contracted without such permission be registered under this Ordinance.

(2) An application for permission under Sub-section (1) shall be submitted to the Chairman in the prescribed manner together with the prescribed fee, and shall state reasons for the proposed marriage, and whether the consent of existing wife or wives has been obtained thereto.

(3) On receipt of the application under Sub-section (3), Chairman shall ask the applicant and his existing wife or wives each to nominate a representative, and the Arbitration Council so constituted may, if satisfied that the proposed marriage is necessary and just, grant, subject to such condition if any, as may be deemed fit, the permission applied for.

(4) In deciding the application the Arbitration Council shall record its reasons for the decision and any party may, in the prescribed manner, within the prescribed period, and on payment of the prescribed fee, prefer an application for revision, to the Collector concerned and his decision shall be final and shall not be called in question in any Court.

(5) Any man who contracts another marriage without the permission of the Arbitration Council shall,

(a) pay immediately the entire amount of the dower whether prompt or deferred, due to the existing wife or wives, which amount, if not so paid, shall be recoverable as arrears of land revenue; and

(b) on conviction upon complaint be punishable with the simple imprisonment which may extend to one year, or with fine which may extend to five thousand rupees, or with both.

Pakistani laws restricts polygamy? Hello? Where and when? When was the last time you saw a copy of Pakistani legal code? You are a joke Hasho and a pretty stupid one for that matter. This discussion is way beyond your panache.

It is hard for a woman in the rural society in Pakistan to remain unmarried. On top of that, MM has plenty of money. I am sure she had plenty of suitors. She is an adult and after the horrific experience she went through, she in her best interest made the decision to marry someone who is already married. Though after the experience she went through, she needed to be more circumspect and should have thought about the other woman's (His first wife) situation.

There is no reason to begrudge her. Living in NY is not a license to discuss someone's personal situation and also that MM is not a public figure. She was a victim and her private life should remain only her business.

Polygamy is not a major problem anywhere in the world. It is all about money. 80% of the Pakistani men barely provide for one family and can't afford to have another family. Changing laws for a mere 5% of the men that have the ability to support another family is a bad practice. We need laws that help the majority of the people.

Sounds like the author barely has any knowledge about the country, Pakistan already has laws that restrict polygamy. The law should be enforced but wasting money on policing a small minority is just plain ridiculous.

Re: # 39

Anilji, saying that MM entered into that "marriage" willingly is like saying that Shah Bano withdrew her court case out of her own free will.

BJ2:

Don't you think that subjugation would be if MM was forced into this marriage?

I think Islamic view of polygamy is similar to that of violence - best avoided, but may be needed under dire circumstances. Yes, there inevitably would be some abuse … but banning it altogether may not be wise either.

Arguably, violence and survival instincts have played some role in human evolution. Islam (and religion in general) aims to uproot senseless violence … while allowing one to pick up arms in defense when all other options have been exhausted. Same applies to polygamy, in my view …

Kul (#34), an obvious issue is that of women outnumbering men … esp. in times of war. I don’t see polygamy necessarily as a macho issue, but that of providing family life and care for women in a manner that Islam deems proper and respectable. It requires maturity and a lot of responsibility, and not just quick sex, for the husband.

Now, you may argue that Islamic view is too idealistic (or idiotic) and not practical. But that may be a different discussion …

Lustful men in backward societies very well may exploit polygamy … but that alone should not be the reason to ban polygamy. E.g., zamindar you mentioned may also exploit government schemes and bank loans aimed at helping the farming community … but that alone should not be the reason to ban such schemes. I hope you see the parallel.

Re: # 36

Tauheed sahib, Marriage of the MM type (marriage, Pakistani style) is simply a subjugation of the woman.

(1) MM had no suitors -- except this one man who was already married. Clearly, her earlier ordeal had stigmatized her permanently in that society.

(2) She married this man without the element of love. It was a travesty of marriage. It should not even be called a marriage -- merely a one-sided accommodation.

(3) He threatened to divorce the first wife. It was not only cruel for that wife, it was clearly a form of emotional blackmail of the MM -- to which she clearly succumbed!

In view of all of the above facts, if you still consider MM "empowered", clearly you have no clue what an empowered woman is supposed to be able to do.

#31 BJ2: and you are merely making negative assumptions, ignoring the facts - like a good chowk Indian.
mm is doing well financially and is very much in control of her life - choosing to live in her village and run a school. the police officer was assigned to protect her, and had been asking for marriage the past couple of years. true - he is already married. and she has chosen to continue to live in her village while the policeman is welcome to visit her - but he will continue to live with his first wife.

if mukhtaran mai had asked my advice (which she didnt), i would perhaps have advised her against marrying a man who already has a wife. but as jesus said, before casting judgement on someone else, walk a mile in his shoes!!

also, unlike you, i dont have to pick on this one straw of her being a second wife to condemn her - because not being indian, i dont have this need to find fault in pakistanis. perhaps the marriage will turn out to be a successful manaage e trois, perhaps it will not. but you are in no position to condemn it. unless you tell me that in hindu society rape victims have no trouble finding a husband. i am familiar with the primitive "values" of even "educated" indians.

BJ2 #31: Look at the bright side. If Mukhtaran Mai had been in India, that would not have been news since Indian babus are all busy looking for bad news from Pakistan. Ask Jay Thakeray if you dont believe me.

Regards. My understanding is that Islam restricted the number of wives to 4 at a time. Polygamy was practiced in all parts of the world much before then. And why do widows have to “find� married men? Why can’t widows or other unmarried women find other unmarried and widowed men? Today’s practice of polygamy is much different than that of the past, and today it is only practiced in backwards parts of the world by lustful immoral men. Care can be provided without marrying someone, and women should not be subjected to this obvious discrimination in macho societies. I cannot tell you how many times I hear about some 60 year old Zimindar in our village bringing home a 14 year old as his 3rd bride. Religion and cultural idiosyncrasies are only used as an excuse. A Muslim man, woman, widowed, can live in a monogamous union in all western countries, I am sure it is possible to live in similar unions in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India. Gay sex is not harmful to anyone, but polygamy is.

Polygamy in Islam was introduced initially to enable widowed women find shelter. In Hinduism, Krishna married several thousdand women because they were found enslaved by one villain, Jarasandh, he defeated and had nowhere to go. It gave them resepctability.

Just imagine that situation exists in todays society. Not in normally established families but in broken families. What is the answer? Should some woman or for that matter a man, handicapped, is left uncared for, not only for food and shelter but for emotional balance also?

Also imagine the two women or the two men get along as great friends and accept to share one man or woman. There are multiple cases of that too.

By outlawing all polygamous and polyandrous relationships, such families which are pulling together shattered lives will be further stigmatized by the pontiffs of 'Norms'.

NO FEROZ, I VIOLENTLY OPPOSE LEGISLATING PERSONAL LIVES AND ATTITUDES. Tomorrow you'll ask gays and extramerital sex outlawed.

NOOOOOOO.

B2J Sahib, Polygamy is not widespread in Pakistan. The discussion should be about outlawing it. While it may not be widespread amongst Indian Muslims either, India should outlaw it too. I think viewing it from gender inequality perspective is only one way of looking at this issue. There are tons of other reasons. Gender inequality is commonplace even in the absence of polygamy. Japan is one example.

Mai has come a cropper -- and is now the SECOND wife of a noname somebody who she did NOT marry for love. The circumstances under which she humiliated herself to such degradation (and did great damage to the positive image which existed) speaks volumes about the low, low status of women in that society. It is understandable that Pakistani society would promote polygamy -- since the value of a woman is so little. It is the height of hypocrisy (and wishful thinking) to see Mai as "empowered"!

Very well presented article. No religious biases. Article treats subject at very basic Human level with no godly/prophet justifications attached.

As a child I would have felt miserable if my father and/or mother had been polygamous. By that same token, my child has a birth right to have monogamous parents. Father and Mother who consider personal libido desires more important than child’s emotional wellbeing are biggest curse a child can have. And this in itself is good enough reason to abolish polygamy/polyandry.

ahmedmadani: So that little toad who sounds as if he has an advanced case of some rare mental disease when he starts gibbering is Quiad a awam? and you claim he is a leader of the Sindhi people?? The only Sindhi who seems to even want to talk to him is Zardari, and that is because both are crooks.

You have no shame when you make up such lies, mr. madani??

BJ2: Mukhtaran Mai can hardly be considered to be under anyone's thumb (the Washington Post had an article on her a couple of years back titled "A courageous Pakistani woman"). So you must mean that it is Zeena who is under the thumb. I will now step aside and let Zeena (if she is around) tell you what she thinks of this charge against her.

#12 Posted by tahmed32

[BJ2: what if the women earn a living? would the profit-making motive, not to mention the sex drive, cause men to accept polygamy? Shouldnt it then be in the self interest of men to burn boy's schools in Pakistan, destroy male fetuses in India while promoting the education of girls at the same time?]

Tauheed sahib janab, I assure you that empowered women act very different from those who are kept under the thumb. How different? I suggest you compare my little sis Zeena with Mukhtaran mai and you will get the idea.

Re: # 20 I do not react to you generally as in your case T stands for "tiny" brain and I am charitable person.
Last timeyou made some hateful comments about Quiad E Awam Mr. Hussain. Tere was no reason, but you like to abuse him as Altaf Hussain is patriot for Sindhi people and he wants real freedom for provinces. He has supported president so there is no problem of Instability. Also he serves ling etwwen Gen. M and President Z to have good relations as nation is more not more but VVVIMP than people. He is only person urging for peace and helps to bring down mental instability of Mr.Z. When Z was in trouble in CJ stuff Mr. Hussain respected contactng of Mr. Bhutto Jr ( Bilawal) as young brother and through Bilawal bring back Prsident Z to sense and for survival of presidency and nation as mr. NS was on war path. Now he can not come to Karachi at this time as MQM Internation HQ ( Like politBeuro) ruleds out his return for stratergic reasons. MQM strength lies with Quaid E Awam. Obviously like chase game ( this more deadly game where leaders are shot and killed and succession through assisinations and taking over of power and whole players are changed that is fact)te king is to be protected at al times, at times even queen can be sacraficed , pawns have no value. A wise army never allows it top genral to get exposed to unnecessary dangers as whole armies faith depends on Commonder in Chief. If he comes back there are many people who can do same thing what was done genral Z ( blowing up), or Mrs Bhutto ( bombing) or Bhutto Sr ( Legal killing). He is better for people of Sindh their leader is safe and and well beyond range of Guns. I hope this you can understand and understand why supreme policy making body of International MQM higher leadership forbid Altaf return and asa democratic , nonfedual person he has to follow advice and live boring life in london . He is philosopher King andhas given his opinions on variert of subjects and people who want to get benefit from his knowledge and experience should visit MQM site and help themselves in furthring their knowledge and learn from wisdom.
Let us hope somejokers will nt star prosecuation of Ge M aand his Lawyer Legendary Leagal Eagle mr. P who has served so many decads andhave eceived highest kitab from govt. Hope they understand implications if they toch General Karachi wil be uncontrolable only one person can control is A. H. So jokers do not playwith fire be respectful of A.H. for he is very generous to friends is deadly fetal more poisonous than Cobra. Hope common sense will prevail.
Good day.

Re: # 23

Masadi sahib:

"....as people did with every truth presented by the prophets...."

So you regard yourself as a prophet, and Muhammad as the final prophet.

Re: # 23

Those that worship the false will invent reasons to reject the truth, never mind those reasons are high stinking BS

He he .... coming from a muslim !
Now thats tall :D

Anil, don't act like a jamadar and get off my case. people can read my ilogs and interacts to see what predictions I came up with, like a dishonest idiot when stumpted, you will find excuses....as people did with every truth presented by the prophets. Those that worship the false will invent reasons to reject the truth, never mind those reasons are high stinking BS.

TNITC masadi

tahmed pushing the BS American pov like the "invisible" WMDs just like you are about the "invisible" Taliban government in Baluchistan is all too convenient to promote US barbarism...It wont work to fool people this time, you were made to eat your BS about Iraq now I suggest you eat your sh** regarding Baluchistan.

TNITC masadi

Tahmed sahib:

Masadi has a knack of reading others handwritings on the wall and turns around to call it as his prediction. With few more miracles he may be contesting for the sainthood the second one after mother Teresa.

However, I do wonder why his predictions about Elites & Co does not come true. Many before him have waited and gone with the wind.

Inka kya hashar hoga, inka khuda jaane.

Masadi: Someone has already invaded Pakistan's Baluchistan. And it is not the US. To find out, I suggest you travel to Baluchistan, and no doubt you will see for yourself the ugly faces of the taliban. The invaders that Pakistanis refuse to see.

Biden's six months are fast approaching, prepare for the US invasion of Pakistan's Baluchistan....the prepping of the US public has begun already....read Pavos blog and yesterday's NYT report...

TNITC predicted this long before the US got rid of BB.

TNITC masadi

Masadi sahib

Aap Qiblay-i- mohhtraam nay jau kuchh abhi farmaya hai beech maslay-e-femisnism(nisaaeet) ke, main bohat ahtraam aur aajzee kay aap say darpaish maslay per Ikhtalaaf karna cha raha tha,laikin Hazoor ki ghazab naak aur qahiraana mizaj-e-garami(garam) ki waja say meri himaat zuban aur ilfaaz ka saath dainay mein ta'amul barat rahi hai.

Masadi sahib,I am Moron,AH, anything you may call but I am not certainly one thing and that is "peon of the west".I have gathered all the courage in the world to ask you in the humblest possible way,kay hazooor ki zaat-e-waala sifaat kaisay feminism,marxism aur methodology of religion ka itnay kamaal-e-maharaat se "tarka" laga laitay hain.

masadi mian, in my opinion(and i am serious) you are the most brilliant guy on chowk and i firmly believe that
most of the chowkies are not even worth responding to when it comes to serious intellectual discourse but there is a huge problem with your temperament.I don't know why you have to stoop to their level.I have always wanted to share my own insight with you on these issues but your language pisses me off.I want to share, learn and dare i say correct you(Don't jump the gun yet please) on certain issues.I have some real problems with your understanding on the issues like,methodology and the philosophical basis of the Marxism,Feminism,methodology of religion(islam, that you have posted on your website).I am great fan of your intellectual skills and knowledge but i still think that there are some serious gaps in your scholarships.(God help me now).

Regards.

cannot be considered oppressive to women, compared to any other system.

That said Kulharee's purpose in this article is just to disparage Islam out of ignorance and kiss the a$$ of his masters the US elite, the sell out brown sahib that he is. A system based on peace, i.e. Islam, where just compensation for child bearing is made compulsory, where the pains and travails of reproductive labor is recognized, and where women are made just sharers in property and where they are given a voice in household disputes and a chance to end the marital relationship can be considered oppressive to women, compared to any other system. And finally the Quran's statement 'badokum mim baad', the one is as/from the other showing equality of status busts the myths of the brown sahibs and they hypocritical gora sahibs who because they devalued women treated colonized races as is they were women.....God damn them all

TNITC masadi

clueless writes "Physical weakness is a boon for women"

There is no such thing, it takes great physical strength to bear a child and great pain to deliver it that can equal anything that men might be able to do with their "strength"- these images are perpetrated by those that want to promote the breadwinner/housewife model of family one that very few people can maintain while in many premodern societies women work like "mules" and when the capitalist system wants to use them as mules then "strength" doesn't become an issue does it- this BS strength business is part trained incapacity and result of division of labor and part politics of gender...

TNITC masadi

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BJ2: what if the women earn a living? would the profit-making motive, not to mention the sex drive, cause men to accept polygamy? Shouldnt it then be in the self interest of men to burn boy's schools in Pakistan, destroy male fetuses in India while promoting the education of girls at the same time?

Most men are monogamous because they can only support one household economically. That's why -- over the ages -- polygamy has been practiced mostly by rich folks. It does not matter what is allowed or proscribed by religion, most people don't pay any attention to religion if they can get away with it. Also, most men are opportunists. Most women are like most men, except they are less secure financially and get fewer opportunities.

Very profound and well written, Kulharee! As mentioned by Mr banneditem, do you watch Big Love?
A mention of Chand Mohammad, aka Chandar Mohan and Fiza, aka Anuradha Bali is appropriate here, even though he gave her a talaaq a few weeks ago.

Is this about the Kamasutra? I didn't read it thinking it might be part of forbidden knowledge.

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Why not raise voice declaring extra-marital affairs illegal? and yes also imprison its practitioners.

nice article, Kulharee. I agree that it's a difficult question -- if you are for gay marriage, it should follow that you should be for polygamy as well since the same arguments apply to both situations. I think that really does expose some of the weaknesses of the libertarian pov, because it shows that a bit of social engineering by the state in terms of defining marriage is not a bad thing unless we want the US to look like an FLDS ranch which really does not seem like a nice place to live.

Feroze is a thoughtful, intelligent writer whereas Kulharee isn't.

Keep writing Feroze.

LOL hamzaad...you are such an idiot..but funny one

The author is like the retarded child of the neighborhood. You know his logic and organization of fits and starts brings smiles to our lips. He knows it and we all feel good that he is happy.

Good work!!

I am sure Producers and Director of Big Love are in agreement over your article, Dont know if FLDS agree wit hyou or not.... so let me ask mr shahi... is polygymy good or bad?

Nice one Feroze