Lessons From Another Lahore Tragedy

arjun,

The mullah-military nexus is a distinct possibility. Perhaps they strengthened each other for a while and are now fighting each other to extinction.

... but trust me, we pakis have nothing to fear … prophetboy tahmed is watching over us … very diligently … armed with a google connection. Boo!

Another 'delightful' item from the New York Times magazine article titled, 'Can Pakistan be Saved?':

"David Kilcullen, a key adviser to Gen. David Petraeus, the Centcom commander, recently asserted that “within one to six months we could see the collapse of the Pakistani state� "

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/magazine/05zardari-t.html?ref=ma gazine&pagewanted=all

So, by October 2009, we could see the collapse of Pakistan? Anyone willing to place a bet that it won't happen?

Pakistan Paindubad! Jinnah Zindabad!

More 'refreshing' news from Pakistan today:

"MINGORA, Pakistan (Reuters) – Pakistani Taliban have moved into a new area in Pakistan, clashing with villagers and police in a mountain valley about 100 km (60 miles) from the capital, police and district officials said on Wednesday."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090408/wl_nm/us_pakistan_taliba n_ 1

When is Islamabad going to fall?

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#360 Posted by sattar2 on April 7, 2009 2:53:08 pm

dude

First of all, the paki security establishment is actively supporting the jihadis. if they haven't taken the jihadis on, it's not because there's a lack of political will. that's like saying you haven't hit your kids because there's a lack of political will to do so.

secondly, i don't know if you know who're you're discussing things with. bulleya aka romair aka capt clueless has a long and illustrious history. less than a week after 9/11, he was predicting that pakiland would now be back in america's good books. Using this position, it would march to economic prosperity and continue to support the jihadis against India. Kashmir would be free in 5-10 years he told us. He even told us the taliban weren't much of a challenge to the paki security establishment and they could be easily wiped out. So, it's not that he is against he jihadis or anything. He's fine with the whole jihadi thingy as long as they jihadis are working for the paki state and advancing the agenda of the paki security establishment.

Re: # 359

Romair:

"......and then blaming everything on india, for allowing taliban to cross the border, when in fact, it is the job of the usa army to stop the taliban on their side of the border......."

This is a very simplistic analogy you are drawing with India as the example. The admiral and special ambassador have gone to Islamabad with a huge carrot and a smaller stick. They can no longer carry a huge stick because they are not dealing with a dictator who is in power due to their support.

The huge carrot they have taken is big enough if given and accepted by right Pakistanis they can clean their house and throw or incarcerate their rascals out.

America and NATO will make an exist from Afghanistan during Obama administration. This exit can be in one of the two ways, Pakistan cooperates and uses huge carrot to clean out the house and throw the rascals, or this money will go into hands of favored talibanis and tribes to instigate fights and through it a very chaotic buffer, with certain annual budget to finance this chaotic buffer.

It is Pakistan, not the U.S. or NATO, who will decide which
the events turn out. A cleaned Pakistan with institutions built or an unstable Pakistan with a very chaotic buffer at its western borders.

Re: # 359

Romair:

".....and any war will go nuclear......"

I know you mentioned it out of context to make your point. I think you are wrong, and history of Nuclear powers testify to the contrary.

Organized armed parties go to war to WIN. Never to self-destruct or just inflict damage (guerillas do this). Pakistan cannot WIN a nuclear with India. Therefore, first stike option is useless for other than bluffing India.

In the circumstance, hot heads prevail in Pakistan (India has already said no-first strike) to launch first strike; the country that makes the first strike will get wiped, by whatever is left of India, and by the rest of the world.

All future wars between India and Pakistan will be war of attrition, and not nuclear. If Pakistani Army survives the current crisis in its present form, there will be war between India and Pakistan in the future also.

In the most likely scenario, what has begun in Pakistan at the beginning of Obama administration, will end in one of the two very different scenarios. Neither scenario will leave Pakistan to have Nuclear Bomb, even if it means India to not have.

You pakis love drinking your own coolaid. A country that is financially bankrupt cannot opt out of any "war" that it's main donor/benefactor has imposed upon it. If pakistan had the moral clarity to actually fight the good fight in 2001, perhaps they wouldn't be in this position. Even now, they are begging to walkout.....but this time they can't....no money- no honey...honey!

Romair,

You have made a plausible case that IF Pakistani leaders are united and have the will, they can handle taliban/al-qaeda on their terms, without necessarily bowing to exploitive US policies. My foremost apprehension is that the IF above is a big IF …

Most of our political leaders are easily bribed … and we keep electing the same band of crooks. One may argue that USA interference in Pak politics helps sustain this cycle of corruption. It plays to the USA’s advantage by strengthening the elements that further require and validate USA’s interference. This sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I wouldn’t cross it off the list just yet.

On the other hand the taliban issue continues to unfold, reaching an alarming stage. Fanaticism has been slowly simmering in the background in Pakistan for decades … but has mainly been a minor issue all along, far from the proportions it seems to have recently assumed. Its rise may be linked to USA’s gwot, or Zia’s policies, depending upon how far one goes back in time. The picture gets complicated …

I don’t know the answer … only trying to identify various factors …

"All that the US has to do is announce a huge sale of weapons to India. Watch your brave Generals having kittens."

....usa doesn't need to throw anything towards india.....india's military is already so much bigger than pakistan's and its economy is so much stronger, that the chance of a conventional war between india and pakistan are zero......pakistan's protection is its nuclear deterent.....and any war will go nuclear......

....in addition, i think india is, finally, starting to realize that it is in its interest that the taliban not storm through pakistan......as they will what they historically did....go after somnath.....

......the most sophisticated civilizations in the world were destroyed, eventually, by barbarians......baghdad by the khans......spain by ferdanand......surrounding areas of delhi, repeatedly, by afghans......

"What are the chances of a Libya type coup happening? Some fundo majors & colonels throw out Kayani & the other "peons of the west"?"

when the army carries out a coup, it is always by the coas....however, i think pakistani society has now evolved beyond coups.....

"Nobody else in Pakistan has the "courage" to stand up to the US, or there are more tahmed/hamid types in Pakistan than Romair cares to admit."

tahmad and hamid mian are immaterial to pakistan....they are nothing more than expat pakistanis who cannot get enough attention in michigan, so they try to show their importance, via pakistan........neither here nor there....

.....pakistani people have the courage to stand up to the usa.....but the govt. certainly doesn't.....i think maldives would stand up to the usa better......

can you imagine a usa general flying into india, holding a press conference with the indian foreign minister and telling the indian public that he is not satisfied by the number of attacks us drones are carrying out in india, so he will increase the number.....and then telling the indian army, that even though it is losing far more people than the us army, in fighting a war started by the usa, it needs to do more......

and then blaming everything on india, for allowing taliban to cross the border, when in fact, it is the job of the usa army to stop the taliban on their side of the border.......

and doing so with total disregard to suicide bombs occuring in the length and breadth of india, due to the actions of the usa army.....

i cannot even imagine a usa general doing so in nepal......

i think the americans themselves must be surprised at how bent over the pakistan govts. happen to be......

but i think the tipover point may be about to come......i think public will either reach a point, where the affluent and intellegensia will migrate out....or there will be a mass movement against any govt. that keeps supporitng us hegemony........and eventually, the govt. will have to grow some balls.......and tell the usa to get out of pakistan, where they are neither invited nor liked.....

tahmed "Because that young girl who was whipped by the taliban was the daughter of every Pakistani."

What about the young girls who were killed in a most barbarous manner by US drones, whose daughters were they? Is it only when human life can be linked to greed of the US and its ulterior motive that it becomes of any worth to you, tahmed you spineless immoral buffoon.

TNITC masadi

If, what I'm hearing from the ex military folks on Chowk, the Zia Generation of officers are a lot more conservative and more sympathetic to the ttp; they are also coming of age. Some soldiers are disobeying orders & refusing to take part in this war.

What are the chances of a Libya type coup happening? Some fundo majors & colonels throw out Kayani & the other "peons of the west"?

Nobody else in Pakistan has the "courage" to stand up to the US, or there are more tahmed/hamid types in Pakistan than Romair cares to admit.

Romair,

doesnt take much courage to just propose what youre doing on Chowk.

All that the US has to do is announce a huge sale of weapons to India. Watch your brave Generals having kittens.

...and that MLK jr moron...

TNITC masadi

Tahmed writes "Hasho: So, there was racism in 1944. Welcome to 2009. "

HP sahib this moron tahmed will never get it because he has less morals than a slug. The U.S. "Racial Project" that ensured a 'whites only' victory in WW2 was followed up through state support at home by federal entitlements to whites, the construction of the white category of previously non-whites like the Jews the Italians and the Poles etc, a one way move to the suburbs for them through destruction of ethnic enclaves, while redlining, HOLC practices and the near total exclusion of blacks from the GI bill ensured that they got segregated in the inner cities. The Paris separation was reproduced structurally at home and its legacy continues to this day revealed by all indicators of life chances that are doubly or triply worse off for Blacks, and the rates of arrests by the Criminal (in)Justice System of the US that are 1000% (ten times) higher for blacks than they are for whites. The 1964 Civil Rights Act was a farce designed to coopt the grievance of the colored in the USA and to drive their rebellion underground by co opting its language and that MLK jr.

TNITC masadi

i think the overwhelming public pressure is starting to take its toll......the dg isi has refused to meet twiddle dee and twiddle dum - holbrooke and mullen......as they continue their visit in pakistan to tell pakistanis which part of pakistan they want to bomb next.....

i am sure the dg isi did so on the govts' order....in addition, the govt. has now put together a policy on the rules of engagement for this war.....this will go to the senate etc......

hopefully, this is the first step in getting the usa out of pakistan's dna...after this one foreign nuisance is removed, pakistan can tolerate on the second one - ttp.......

and then these two entities can fight each other in afghanistan, if they want.......

sattar2 #: "What choice does Pakistan have? Does the Pak army have the resources, if not the will, to take on the taliban? Is there a realistic solution for the Pak govt …?"

...finally some valid questions......rather than the self-centered nonsense thrown around by expats like urstruly, hamidm mian, and tahmad......

this is the kind of discussion that needs to occur....i.e. what should pakistan do, first and foremost, for its own interests.....what options does it have, etc......not what pakistan should do to fight for usa's gwot......all of that is secondary if you ask me.......any nationalistic pakistan (be he secular or religious, male or female) has to first worry about pakistan.....

....here are my comments.....

.....no military will ever be able to defeat the taliban.....or any insurgency, if it has any kind of local support......and has a resource pool of suicide bombers available to it......

.......this is a political and social problem.....and it can be easily solved.....for the simple reason that taliban have no historical or social base in pakistan....there whole oxygen in raison d etre is taking on pakistan's support for the usa in afghanistan......

......pakistan, like any half self respecting country needs to tell the usa that it is not going to allow drone attacks, it is not going to attack even a single pakistani, if there are chances of collateral damage, and it can no longer be the usa's logistical supply line (why in the world should every country join every war the usa wants to fight).....

basically do what turkey did......or what spain did.....or what any country would do.....i think the americans themselves must be amazed at how much pakistanis bend over backwards to appease them......

once this happens, i think the suicide attacks will come down drastically......the population will be united.....and most of all, ttp support will be near zero.....at that time, the national assembly has to lay down a policy for tackling the ttp......

pakistanis dislike the ttp.....it has, perhaps, no more than 25000 - 100000 supporters......compared to 170 million pakistanis.......it cannot last if it is seen as an entity attacking pakistan (for no rhyme or reason).....

......it should be given a political option to leave and go fight in afghanistan, now that pakistan is no longer supporting usa......if it doesn't do so, and continues its thuggery, then a combined military action, with full force, and full support of the pakistani population, should be taken against it, on pakistan's terms.......

that war will, actually, be pakistan's war......and i am quite sure, pakistan will win easily.....as ttp is a foreign phenomenon......much of its money, from what i have researched, i believe comes from pakistani labourers who work in saudi arabia and have become salafis......

do keep in mind that taliban etc. are an alien phenomenon that entered pakistan because pakistan became a frontline state for the usa, in the first afghan war, and now in the second afghan war.......they are not organic.....

Romair, HP, masadi etc. … interesting comments …

I agree in that there is validity to the argument … that US has botched up the GWOT and the resulting anti-US sentiment is fueling the recent rise of the Taliban/Al-Qaeda phenomenon in Pakistan … but where do we go from here?

Granted, neither US nor Pak army wants to fight taliban in Pak-Afghan border mountains …and that US is forcing Pakistan to fight its (USA’s) war. What choice does Pakistan have? Does the Pak army have the resources, if not the will, to take on the taliban? Is there a realistic solution for the Pak govt …?

Re: # 344

Yep, it's all gora's fault... pakis have no faults whatsover... LOL

Hasho: So, there was racism in 1944. Welcome to 2009.

wonder how this fits in with prophetboy's "brave paki state taking on the jihadis it had no role in creating" narrative...

will prophetboy try to spin this? or will it be the usual "people who post such news are hateful" shtick?

ISI has contacts with extremists: Gates
By Anwar Iqbal
Tuesday, 07 Apr, 2009 | 12:34 AM PST |

WASHINGTON: The ISI’s contacts with the Hekmatyar, Haqqani and the Nazir groups are a real concern for the United States, says US Secretary of Defence Robert Gates.

In a recent interview to an Afghan television channel, Mr Gates also expressed concern over Pakistan’s agreement with the militants in Swat saying that such deals only allow the militants to reassemble and revive their strength.

‘The ISI's contacts with some of these extremist groups —with Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, the Haqqani network, Commander Nazir (sp) and others —are a real concern to us,’ said Mr Gates.

‘We have made these concerns known directly to the Pakistanis. And we hope that they will take action to put an end to it.’

‘Are US drones flying from Afghanistan to hit militant hideouts in the Pakistani territory?’ he was asked.

‘I can't talk about our military operations, obviously. But the president (Obama) has made clear that we will go after al Qaeda and their planning cells and their training centres, wherever they are in the world.’

And the roots to the problem the US has the world over come from this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7984436.stm

Papers unearthed by the BBC reveal that British and American commanders ensured that the liberation of Paris on 25 August 1944 was seen as a "whites only" victory.

Many who fought Nazi Germany during World War II did so to defeat the vicious racism that left millions of Jews dead.

Yet the BBC's Document programme has seen evidence that black colonial soldiers - who made up around two-thirds of Free French forces - were deliberately removed from the unit that led the Allied advance into the French capital.

By the time France fell in June 1940, 17,000 of its black, mainly West African colonial troops, known as the Tirailleurs Senegalais, lay dead.

Many of them were simply shot where they stood soon after surrendering to German troops who often regarded them as sub-human savages.

Their chance for revenge came in August 1944 as Allied troops prepared to retake Paris. But despite their overwhelming numbers, they were not to get it.

majumdar #: "The only problem is that the Taliban has now acquired some kind of a momentum in Af-Pak region. Even if US quits A'stan, they wont stop and if they are not stopped in time, they will make things worse for Pakistan (wont overwhelm Pakistan though)"

...the taliban has momentum in afghanistan......it's momentum in pakistan is only there because of the point i keep repeating: it has portrayed itself as a group of people who are fighting an american occupation in afghanistan......and it has, to some people, portrayed its violence, in pakistan, as a targeting of a country (pakistan), which is the logistical supply line of the usa......

....one needs to analyze ttp a bit better, to figure out how to handle it......it has miniscule electoral support in pakistan.....not even one seat, i think....it has no social history in the country......it has no religious history in the country.....it is made up primarily of deobandis, which originated from india......and funded by wahabis and salafis, which are the pakistani pathans etc. who go to saudi arabia, as labour (much like pakistani expats become mini neo cons, after living too long in the usa, pakistanis in saudi arabia become mini wahabis).......

while pakistanis are primarily a much more moderate bralevi school of social thought and hanafi school of jurisprudence thought.......deobandis are alien to this land, to some extent....and wahabis and salafis are totally alien....

......ttp came into existence, barely two years ago......what is the oxygen that is keeping it alive and giving it legitimacy.......it is pakistan's participation in supporting gwot and the legitimacy it gets from that.....and the resource pool it gets from all the collateral damage (read brutal killings) by the usa war machine in pakistan......

pakistan cannot handle the ttp if it does not separate out its war against ttp, from gwot....if it does separate it out, then ttp will die a death, rather quickly.......it will be reduced to a group of armed thugs......with no oxygen to breath......they will cause trouble, but will not be able to grow.....

Faisalabad next target of terrorism: Kaira

* Information minister admits government has lost its writ in Swat

Daily Times Monitor

LAHORE: Information Minister Qamar Zaman Kaira has said terrorists had planned to make Faisalabad their next target, a private TV channel reported on Monday.

At a dinner hosted in his honour in Lahore, the information minister admitted the state had no writ in Swat, and that the terrorists had better resources than Pakistan’s intelligence agencies.

He said the public flogging of a 17-year-old girl by Taliban in Swat occurred three months ago and highlighting the incident now was meant to pressurise the government.

Kaira urged the media to play a positive role against terrorism.

#332 Posted by bulleya
"as long as the ttp can link their cause to opposing american occupation in afghanistan, and as long as their is collateral damage, they will always have a resource pool available in pakistan."

Couldn't agree more! Absolutely correct.The resentment to the US goes far back. 2001 US attack just fueled the fire. The true roots are the British colonial treatment of the area, Bacha Khan's anti British stand and after the partition, the US dominance in Pakistani affairs.

The Taliban and their allies are cashing on the hatred against the colonial rule which was associated with the white race.

#342 Posted by tahmed32 on April 7, 2009 4:37:02 am


Because that young girl who was whipped by the taliban was the daughter of every Pakistani.


Does that include the security establishment that's still supporting the jihadis..

say what you want about capt clueless, he isn't completely dishonest like prophetboy here...

bulleya: So, it took you two days to figure out what you would do if an intruder attacked your wife. But if the intruder attacked your neighbor's house, you would do nothing.

Fair enough. Dont call yourself a Pakistani then. Because that young girl who was whipped by the taliban was the daughter of every Pakistani. That is why people in town all over Pakistan came out to protest. That is one brave Pakistani risked his life to record the beating. That is why Samar Minallah risked her life to distribute the recording. This beating means nothing only to beghairats like you.

hey capt clueless..if you're in pakiland and want to stay safe from the CIA drone attacks, wear a tshirt with a redskins logo...no agency operative is going to whack a redskins fan..under no circumstances should you be wearing a dallas cowboys jersey...


April 7, 2009
More Drone Attacks in Pakistan Planned
By ERIC SCHMITT and CHRISTOPHER DREW

WASHINGTON — Despite threats of retaliation from Pakistani militants, senior administration officials said Monday that the United States intended to step up its use of drones to strike militants in Pakistan’s tribal areas and might extend them to a different sanctuary deeper inside the country.

On Sunday, a senior Taliban leader vowed to unleash two suicide attacks a week like one on Saturday in Pakistan’s capital, Islamabad, unless the Central Intelligence Agency stopped firing missiles at militants. Pakistani officials have expressed concerns that the missile strikes from remotely piloted aircraft fuel more violence in the country, and some American officials say they are also concerned about some aspects of the drone strikes.

But as Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and Richard C. Holbrooke, the special envoy to the region, arrived in Islamabad on Monday, the administration officials said the plan to intensify missile strikes underscored President Obama’s goal to “disrupt, dismantle and defeat� Al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, as well as to strike at other militant groups allied with Al Qaeda.

Officials are also proposing to broaden the missile strikes to Baluchistan, south of the tribal areas, unless Pakistan manages to reduce the incursion of militants there.

Influential American lawmakers have voiced support for the administration’s position.

Senator Carl Levin, a Michigan Democrat who heads the Armed Services Committee, acknowledged last week that “the price is very heavy� when missile strikes mistakenly kill civilians, but he said the strikes were “an extremely effective tool.�

The plans have met strong resistance from Pakistani officials and have also worried some former American officials and some analysts, who say that strikes create greater risks of civilian casualties and could further destabilize the nuclear-armed nation.

“You will be complicating and compounding anti-Americanism here,� said Talat Masood, a retired Pakistani general and military analyst in Islamabad. “How can you be an ally and at the same time be targeted?�

Some American experts say a crucial change in aerial warfare, in which American forces are now often stalking individuals rather than tanks and other large armaments as in past wars, has raised new legal issues.

A. John Radsan, who worked as a C.I.A. lawyer from 2002 to 2004, argued in a recent scholarly article he wrote with Richard W. Murphy, a fellow law professor, that the United States should follow the lead of the Israeli Supreme Court and require an investigation of “targeted killings� by the C.I.A. to control the practice.

While the notion of remote-control killing may seem chilling, military experts say the drones, which can transmit live video for nearly a day at a time, typically supply the weapons targeting officers with enough information to avoid civilian casualties.

Marc Garlasco, a former military targeting official who now works for Human Rights Watch, the international advocacy group, said the drones had helped limit civilian casualties in Afghanistan and Iraq, where the Air Force uses them to attack people laying roadside bombs and to attack other insurgents.

But in trying to take advantage of what can be fleeting chances to kill top Taliban and Qaeda leaders in Pakistan, the C.I.A. faces a much more difficult task, especially if it follows the targets into more populated areas.

“When you’re operating under very short time frames, like the C.I.A. is in Pakistan, you are exponentially increasing the risk of killing noncombatants,� Mr. Garlasco said.

In Pakistan, the extensive missile strikes have been limited to the tribal areas, and authorities say they have killed 9 of the top 20 Qaeda leaders. American officials say the missile strikes have forced some Taliban and Qaeda leaders to flee south toward Quetta, a city in the province of Baluchistan, which abuts the parts of southern Afghanistan where recent fighting has been the fiercest.

One of the prized attributes of the drones — the Cessna-size Predators and their larger and more heavily armed cousins called the Reapers — is that they can linger over an area day after day, sending back video that can be used to build a “pattern of life� analysis.

Some experts have compared them to mini-satellites that can monitor a suspected terrorist compound for weeks, watching where the people go and with whom they interact, to help confirm that the right people are being singled out for attack.

Experts say the drones also carry laser-guided weapons with small warheads that are precise enough to kill a group of people in a street without damaging nearby buildings.

Like the military services, the C.I.A. uses computer software to assess possible collateral damage, and the fusing on the bombs can be adjusted to limit their impact.

But in Pakistan and Afghanistan, it can also be hard to evaluate tips about the locations of Taliban or Qaeda leaders if there are no troops nearby to help check them out.

While the Air Force operates its drones from military bases in the United States, the C.I.A. controls its fleet of Predators and Reapers from its headquarters in Langley, Va.

The final preparations for strikes in Pakistan take place in a crowded room lined with video screens, where C.I.A. officers work at phone banks and National Security Agency personnel monitor electronic chatter, according to former C.I.A. officials.

The intelligence officers watch scratchy video captured by the drones, which always fly in pairs above potential targets.

According to the former officials, it is generally the head of the C.I.A.’s clandestine service or his deputy who gives the final approval for a strike. The decision about what type of weapon to use depends on the target, according to one former senior intelligence official.

Top national security leaders have approved lists of people who can be attacked, officials say, and the lawyers determine whether each attack can be justified under international law.

Mark Mazzetti and Elisabeth Bumiller contributed reporting.

#333 by bulleya

.......usa is going after the taliban (let's equate them to your missus and usa to harish_hyd's........let them go at each other......why should pakistan get involved........unless it does so on its own terms......

Wrong analogy Captain Clueless. Pakistan is your country (for a moment assume it is your missus), and between the desi dacoit (Taliban) and the American dacoit (US), it is your missus (Pakistan) that is getting screwed. But you seem to think pimping your missus (Pakistan) to the desi dacoit is far better than pimping it to the American dacoit. Got it?

#333 by bulleya

.......usa is going after the taliban (let's equate them to your missus and usa to harish_hyd's........let them go at each other......why should pakistan get involved........unless it does so on its own terms......

Wrong analogy Captain Clueless. Pakistan is your country (for a moment assume it is your missus), and between the desi dacoit (Taliban) and the American dacoit (US), it is your missus (Pakistan) that is getting screwed. But you seem to think pimping your missus (Pakistan) to the desi dacoit is far better than pimping it to the American dacoit. Got it?

#333 by bulleya

.......usa is going after the taliban (let's equate them to your missus and usa to harish_hyd's........let them go at each other......why should pakistan get involved........unless it does so on its own terms......

Wrong analogy Captain Clueless. Pakistan is your country (for a moment assume it is your missus), and between the desi dacoit (Taliban) and the American dacoit (US), it is your missus (Pakistan) that is getting screwed. But you seem to think pimping your missus (Pakistan) to the desi dacoit is far better than pimping it to the American dacoit. Got it?

Romair:

Why will you not keep it simple, and throw the rascals out?

Re: # 328
hasho...
"Btw, Pakistan will be saved the day the Pak army is completely destroyed and some other army is raised from the ashes...."
oh no...as per general perception, armed forces are more popular than political establishment in Pakistan...so, Pakistani armed forces are not going to vapourize overnight like camphor....if Paki taxpayers are not paying money, NATO/USA or China and Saudi Arabia will provide resources to Pakistani armed forces (for strategic interest).....

Re: # 303
arjun....
this is real problem...when internal security is handed over to armed forces ( a lot more in India than in Pakistan), you see such problem...fortunately for India, the arned forces are fighting in regions, which has very thin presence in armed forces...(Naxalite tribal belt, Kashmir etc...)

Romair,

The only problem is that the Taliban has now acquired some kind of a momentum in Af-Pak region. Even if US quits A'stan, they wont stop and if they are not stopped in time, they will make things worse for Pakistan (wont overwhelm Pakistan though)

HP saeen,

Looking at the larger US interests, it might go for the final solution one day

I presume you mean the destruction of the Pak Army. But why shud US destroy Pak Army which has been a good dog catcher in the region. At worst, Pak Army is of no good use to USA which means that USA has no incentive to fund it any more. But why destroy Pak Army, when really Pak Army has no interest in or intent to to harm US interests.

Regards

tahmad #: "that if a burglar entered your house you would hold down the missus and tell him to have a go at her but not to hurt you?"

the expat pakistan crowd in the usa, has reached extremely low levels of idiocy......i could expect that from you, hamidm mian and urstruly.....but even otherwise reasonalbe commentators of this expat crowd have joined you......

normally, such a question would be far too idiotic for me to answer......however, since this is the gist of your intellectual development, i feel i must answer it.....

if someone was having a go at my missus, i would fight him.....however, if harish_hyd was having a go at your missus, and you were having a go at his missus, i would not get involved......

i would only get involved on my own terms....i.e. if it was in my interest in going after your missus and if i enjoyed it, or if it was in my interest in going after harish_hyd's missus.....

.......usa is going after the taliban (let's equate them to your missus and usa to harish_hyd's........let them go at each other......why should pakistan get involved........unless it does so on its own terms......

fuzair #: "That's also what I've heard; the locals were very happy to have the TTP and associated Islamist thugs exterminated."

...i think everyone wants the ttp finished.......however just wanting something, doesn't make it happen......things happen, when practical solutions are practiced.....

.....nato, with all its firepower and budget, and with none the muslim associations, has been unable to win in afghanistan, against the taliban.....now hillary clinton is offering negotiations and mullah umar is rejecting them!

how in the world do you expect the pakistani army, with a much smaller resource pool, to be victorious......

it is impossible to win these political wars through force.....

......pakistan will have to first separate out the two wars....the us war in afghanistan and pakistan's war against the ttp.....

since you are sitting in the usa, I am quite sure you are quite ill-informed about what is going on in pakistan.....in addition, i have noticed those who live in a certain environment, eventually start adapting the ways and thinkings of that region......much like pakistanis living in saudi arabia start becoming wahabis and salafis, pakistanis living in the usa, slowly start thinking that all us policies are kosher and should be loved......

......as long as the ttp can link their cause to opposing american occupation in afghanistan, and as long as their is collateral damage, they will always have a resource pool available in pakistan.....

pakistan can only defeat them if it de-links itself from the one entity that is hated, in pakistan, even more than ttp....and that is the usa......

standing up to a country, which is, totally, violating another country's sovereignity with no regard for the later's own considerations is what a govt. is supposed to do......there is a unanimous resolution against drone attacks.......shouldn't that be followed.....

there is mass support of getting the usa out of pakistan's decision making process and making the decsions based on pakistan priorities.....this is normal behavior for any country........

if one is going to allow any country to carry out drone attacks in pakistan, regardless of the deaths involved........then why oppose india's right of doing that......why did pakistan not allow ussr to do that......

pakistan needs to get rid of the influecne of two entities......usa and ttp.....

Re: # 316
fuz...
Kargil was Pakistan's stupid mis-adventure, which Paki army carried out on behalf of China...After 1998 Nuke Test, India clarified then PM of Pakistan that, Indian nuke program is mainly China centric and Pakistan need not worry about it...Vajpayee was able to convince NS in this matter...and then the Chinkus threw couple of bones to Paki generals and they acted like obidient dogs of Chinku PLA....After Kargil, RAW handed over intercepted conversation between PLA and their pet dogs on Paki army...but somehowm, NS was thrown out and the entire information landed on the lap of Mussarraf....
BJP govt. was stupid enough to trust Pakistani govt. ( keeping in mind about the history of military take overs)....
From Kargil episode, Pakistan achieved almost nothing (apart from heavy casualty in Indian side)....

Re: # 297
vengat...
I am not fiddling with greatness of Indian mind...but some of the methods identified by ancient indians are quite unique and better to say not driven by animal instincts....yoga is one of them....

Killing others for something you believe (Islam is seer stupidity) is not matter of having spine...it is stupidity.....

Hasho: The Pakistan Army may not want to fight this war, but the Taliban - geniuses that they are - dont know when to leave well enough alone now that Swat has been shamefully surrendered to them. Like I said to fuzair below, Pakistan's saving grace is that the taliban are even bigger duds than our duds.

#314 Posted by fuzair
"I've also heard that one of the reasons why the PA is relying so much on firepower in, e.g., Bajaur, is that it is afraid that if it commits infantry units to FIBUA, they will obviously suffer heavier casualties and might then refuse orders to deploy against fellow Muslims."
-----

This line was advanced by the Pak army and some in the US around 2006. Many were duped. I too for a while thought this might be the case. Since 2008, the bits and pieces that have come out clearly show that the Pak army generals don't wanna fight this war to save their necks and place the blame on the poor jawans who mostly would not refuse the orders given to them by the command. Yes, there may be some desertions but that happens in every war. This would not be the first time that the Pakistan army would attack the fellow muslim. Army has a habit of doing that and many parts of Pakistan have witnessed that.

The issue really is that the both armies(US and Pakistan) don't want to fight the war. NATO has made it clear that it will not fight the war. So now the US is pressuring Pakistan army to fight so that it can save American lives and the Pakistan army generals take the line that the since the US Army would not fight, why should they.

So what both resort to? Drones and aerial attacks by the Pak army. There is no way they can defeat the Taliban that are mostly perched in the mountains, by the aerial bombardment. The aerial attacks are just part of larger face saving strategy.

Until the situation gets really desperate, both Pakistan and the US would continue this dance and the tea talk.

Btw, Pakistan will be saved the day the Pak army is completely destroyed and some other army is raised from the ashes. In the last two to three months(since nov mumbai attacks), it appeared that the US would weaken the army beyond repair but again Pentagon pumped some fresh air.

Looking at the larger US interests, it might go for the final solution one day and I will be out there supporting the US.

Dear Masadi ji:

Do you care to share how you plan to disband Pakistani Army and what will you replace it with? From the news and posters, it could half Talibani already.

Re: # 324

Then may I humbly suggest that you start writing without the froth coming out of your mouth and onto the screen ...

Pssssssst.... Break your sentences so they are at least coherent.

not the gist of my argument.

wiseguyin writes "Another assertion which claims that the first assertion is propoganda! "

Learn how to read you moron. Tahmed referred to the Al-Qaeda "shadow Army" as a new evolution in order to fuel the US GWOT. That was from the propaganda dens of the CIA, now the gist of my argument.

TNITC masadi

The only thing they have achieved was installing the Taliban in Afghanistan and "Saudi-Islamizing" Pakistan through their "Shadow army" what this misrable moron tahmed is reproducing below from the propaganda dens of the CIA itself

Fasadi ji - do you realize you are contradicting yourself in one line? (This is a first for the rest of us ... but you seem to be doing it with well trained practice).

In one line you say: The only thing they have achieved. An assertion of a fact.
In the same line you say: misrable moron tahmed is reproducing below from the propaganda dens... Another assertion which claims that the first assertion is propoganda!

Re: # 320; masadi

[[The sooner this miserable military is disbanded the better it will be for the nation, and a great loss for the Americans whose occupation force it is]]

this is the third post (in as many weeks) of yours that I agree with!

Fuzair writes "This stands in stark contrast to the fighting spirit of the NLI and others in Kargil. "

The lota carrier of the generals touts Kargil like so many other supporters of the dimwit dictator Musharraf. Kargil was a careless, unthoughtful misadventure of the Pakistan Army that risked the lives and security of the 160+ million population of Pakistan. They had no clue how India would have reacted to their BS, and were it not for the US not wanting this mess on their hands because they don't give a damn about India and Pakistan, it might well have escalated to the mainland. In the end it was a humiliating defeat as well as international humiliation by trivializing the Kashmir cause through taking on the role of aggressor- it thus gave the moral advantage to India in the international arena. These thugs of the Pakistan army, the whole lot of whom in the officers corps in the senior levels need to be put on donkeys and paraded naked across the country as people spit on them, are brainless and therefore recklessly careless. For them their own grandeur and wealth matters more than the lives of the people or the integrity of the nation. Sooner or later these sons of bitches will get the justice they deserve...

TNITC masadi

Fuzair writes "Really not sure what is going to happen to Pakistan if the Army breaks..."

Leave it to a goddamned lota carrier of the generals to make such proclamations that by the way have been perfected by this very same army through mullahesque naara baazi of "Pakistan khatray me hai". What the F have they done for Pakistan in its history other than lose half the country and the rest of the wars they have fought. The only thing they have achieved was installing the Taliban in Afghanistan and "Saudi-Islamizing" Pakistan through their "Shadow army" what this misrable moron tahmed is reproducing below from the propaganda dens of the CIA itself. The sooner this miserable military is disbanded the better it will be for the nation, and a great loss for the Americans whose occupation force it is. Talk about traitors and their lota carriers, they occupy our land and then they say "what will happen to Pakistan if we are broken"- same BS as the US saying that chaos will reign if it leaves Iraq. No further damage can be done to Pakistan than this miserable army has already done to us.

I wonder why Chowk censored my "The misadventures of the Pakistan Army" article- Are they afraid of Kiyani or that maybe a drone will be sent their way by the US?

Today Mullen is talking about sharing "cups of tea" with Kiyani, so that through him the US can once again subvert the aspirations of the people of Pakistan. May God damn these immoral swines and their lota carriers....and tahmed...

TNITC masadi

#316 fuzair: no doubt troop morale is a problem, given the mask of "Islam" that the enemy wears.

But..time is on Pakistan's side - since alqaeda/taliban's mask of Islam comes off pretty quick when they occupy some territory. Their attacks on panjab can only help clear the confusion the PA - largely from the panjab - may have had about "fellow muslims". And their organizing along the lines of a conventional military (per the article below, e.g.) means they are fighting on PA turf both literally (i.e. in the Panjab) and figuratively (i.e. in terms of firepower). So hamidm may want to stay away from growing a beard for now.

#317 wiseguy: Here is one...

Al Qaeda's paramilitary 'Shadow Army'
By Bill RoggioFebruary 9, 2009 1:07 AM

Al Qaeda has reorganized its notorious paramilitary formations that were devastated during the US invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and 2002...into a larger, more effective fighting unit known as the Lashkar al Zil, or Shadow Army, a senior US intelligence official told The Long War Journal.

The paramilitary force is well trained and equipped, and has successfully defeated the Pakistani Army in multiple engagements. Inside Pakistan, the Shadow Army has been active in successful Taliban campaigns in North and South Waziristan, Bajaur, Peshawar, Khyber, and Swat.

In Afghanistan, the Shadow Army has conducted operations against Coalition and Afghan forces in Kunar, Nuristan, Nangahar, Kabul, Logar, Wardak, Khost, Paktika, Paktia, Zabul, Ghazni, and Kandahar provinces.

"The Shadow Army has been instrumental in the Taliban's consolidation of power in Pakistan's tribal areas and in the Northwest Frontier Province," a senior intelligence official said. "They are also behind the Taliban's successes in eastern and southern Afghanistan. They are helping to pinch Kabul."

There are units analogous to battalion, brigade, and division formations found in Western armies.

The military organization has a clear-cut command structure with established ranks. A senior al Qaeda military leader is placed in command of the Shadow Army, while experienced officers are put in command of the brigades and subordinate battalions and companies.

The re-formed Brigade 055 is but one of an estimated three to four brigades in the Shadow Army. Several other Arab brigades have been formed, some consisting of former members of Saddam Hussein’s Republican Guards as well as Iraqis, Saudis, Yemenis, Egyptians, North Africans, and others.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/02/al_qaedas_paramilita.php

it seems the latter are a well-organized (complete with formations going from platoon to brigade level in case of some jehadi outfits)

Any links to sources? Credible ones please.

I sincerely hope not.

But, I've also heard that one of the reasons why the PA is relying so much on firepower in, e.g., Bajaur, is that it is afraid that if it commits infantry units to FIBUA, they will obviously suffer heavier casualties and might then refuse orders to deploy against fellow Muslims. So the PA stands back and pounds the villages into rubble rather than risk the already miserable morale of the army.

This stands in stark contrast to the fighting spirit of the NLI and others in Kargil.

fuzair: the army isnt about to break. it does need to get serious about the Taliban/AlQaeda menace - it seems the latter are a well-organized (complete with formations going from platoon to brigade level in case of some jehadi outfits), well-armed force. Fortunately, winning hearts and minds is not the taliban forte, who would rather try to intimidate the local population through public beatings and beheadings.

Our duds dont need to be smart - only smarter than the taliban/alqaeda duds.

Hamidm,

Yes, I've heard that too; the last time I spent much time in BOQs and Army messes with junior officers was in the early 1990s and things were bad then but not this bad.

Really not sure what is going to happen to Pakistan if the Army breaks. This really is blowback with a vengeance. And Romair thinks that it will all be OK if we only stand up to the US!

tahmed (#256, 259)

That was low, very low. If I’ve understood correctly, your posts are in extremely poor taste. Sinking to this level says something disturbing about you. I hope no further comments are necessary … and please, do not try to justify the tone or the content of your posts. This should be a time for you to reflect … and hopefully, regret.

[harish, this applies to your post as well.
Jeez, you guys need to get a grip]

#311 hasnt hamidm heard of the mexican cleaning ladies in michigan??

Hamidm,

" they all thought we were crazy for living without domestic help and cleaning our own toilets but now that it is two late they are having second thoughts"

so many indians share the feeling with your siblings in pakistan

majumdar: The FM also predicted in 2004 that at 11:22 am EST, April 6, 2009, the Dow Jones Index would be 7903!! And lo and behold, that is what it was (I just checked).

He can also tell you the exact day there will be the Second Coming of the Christ, and the weather prediction for that day (so you can receive the christ dressed for the weather).

What amazing vision the Field Marshall possesses!! We are truly blessed to have such an amazing personality among us on chowk.

FM Romair predicted that Hamid mian will now try to evacuate his relations to safety.

Regards

majumdar: what did the genius FM predict?

Hamid mian,

i might be able to save a few nieces and nephews

For once FM Romair's prediction has come correct

Regards

#304 hamidm: maybe you should stop shaving and bathing and stop brushing your teeth and start chewing niswar. and in 6 months you will look and smell just like the taliban.

you can then declare jihad on bulleya, who will promptly wet his pants and start begging you to spare him. that should cheer you up.

Re: # 304 hamidm

well, jihadi chicken you supported for kashmir has come home to roost... LOL

Re: # 301

majumder mian,

.... unfortunately, all our siblings and their broods are in pakistan - they all thought we were crazy for living without domestic help and cleaning our own toilets but now that it is two late they are having second thoughts ....... i might be able to save a few nieces and nephews ...........

.... verily, we are f ....d

#300 Posted by hamidm2 on April 6, 2009 5:57:21 am


....... the middle and lower ranks of the pak army have been infected by the islamic bug and many are refusing to fight 'fellow moslems


From today's NYT

In Jhelum, a town 100 miles south of Islamabad and a place with a proud military history, one village had shown in the boldest terms the anger about the military fighting Muslims on Pakistani soil, said Enver Baig, a former senator with the Pakistan Peoples Party, who considers himself a pro-American politician.

When the body of a soldier killed in the tribal areas was taken home to his family last year, the father refused to accept his son’s coffin, Mr. Baig said.

Instead, the father took off his shoe and used it to slap the army officer who had escorted the body.

A month later, when another soldier’s body was delivered to the same village, the army left the body on the village outskirts, Mr. Baig said.

Jinnah Zindabad for fathering Pakistan - thanks to him, we are all getting a real-time, ringside view of a nation in the process of self-destruction by antagonists who all claim to be 'real' muslims on both sides. Pakistan ka matlab kya - la illah illalah! Allah hu Akbar!
Cheers!

Hamid mian,

You are staying in USA, so you shudnt care either ways, shud you?

Regards

fuzair mian,

....... the middle and lower ranks of the pak army have been infected by the islamic bug and many are refusing to fight 'fellow moslems' ...... just look at the next truckload of army jawans that passes by and count the number of beards ... and check out some of the army officer's messes and you will see majors and colonels runnig around in beards and crumpled shalwar kameez - gone are the days when you had to shave and put on a proper mufti to enter the ante room .........now many of them look and smell like the uncouth taliban they are supposed to be fighting ..........

....... verily, we are f....ed!

..... i think it is time to switch sides and join the winners if you want to keep your head attached to your body

baitullah mehsud zindabad!

#287 TrichMir,

That's also what I've heard; the locals were very happy to have the TTP and associated Islamist thugs exterminated. But, as usual, the PA made a complete hash of things: as my late father used to say, "the Army encourages a cult of mediocrity." I think he would have to update it now to "a cult of stupidity."

and stop claiming your IITians/IIMians will solve all world problems...Wall Street has made possible for anybody to have a look at their prowess...

and choosing Wall Street itself shows their intelligence...

Please read Fooled by Randomness and Black Swan...hes putforth very beautifully what i am trying to say

you get what you deserve

Nkg,

this is a statement i dont believe in...and I am not going to talk about how Ambanis made their riches...GT knows better how Tata and Birla made money...


nobody deserves more than the other...and stop the fiddling with greatness of the Indian mind and its knowledge...

accept the Pakistanis have more spine...can we create a single suicide bomber who can kill himself for his belief...

Re: # 293
vengat....
when you dislike a political leader, kick out him after 5 years (next election)....what the mighty Indira Gandhi faced after emergency is for everyone to see....

Vengy Garu,

Nkg moshai is correct. Killing rich people wont make poor people rich. Only the thugs from the poor will become rich and everyone will be poorer.

Regards

Re: # 293
vengat...
do people know, how this tiny minority accumulated wealth? If Ambanis are rich, they deserves to be. If you kill Tatas, as they are rich, you will never get a Nano for you.....the bottomline, is you get what you deserve ( and it is very difficult to accept it).....

Nkg,

im not in favour of the Taliban ruling but my view is that people would feel more empowered...you just have to become a Taliban...all gates will open...

if you look at any society (atleast the east's) majority of the people live in an abysmally poor set-up and atiny minority's will is imposed as the country's will...if you look at that minority not many would have come up playing fair...

so its all fair in the game...atlease in a Talibized set-up you could kill a politician you dont like at will...:D

Nkg,

"we go for yoga to control sexual emotion but muslas try to cover the entire female body, as if that is the reason for such problem"...

thinking icon...

Re: # 285
contd....
and the result of the talib rule will be, each and every family will be abysmaly poor....I have seen how the quality of education got destroyed in West Bengal in the name of equality....

Re: # 285
vengat....
there is wide spread human perversion of not getting pleasure from what you want but from how you prevent others from getting something better...example, I will be happy with Maruti 800, until my neighbour purchases a Honda City......Those societies, which supports this (foundation of muslaism/islam is this in the garb of egalitarian society) negative thinking and resultant gang crime are bound to sink....so many prosperous societies got destroyed under this evil influence.....I can recall a story from my native place....two people came riding bycle and after looting the bank (SBI), they thrown 6 bundles of (during early 1980s) INR10, while fleeing from the scene...the street urchins and people blocked the road to collect the money. The police, with its gun and Mahindra jeep was not able to touch the decoits....who are the real decoits? definitely the people who were blocking the street for INR10.....Muslaism is mainly based on negative thinking ( we go for yoga to control sexual emotion but muslas try to cover the entire female body, as if that is the reason for such problem).....

Re: # 267 bulleya .....the point i am making, or the two points i am making, is that pakistan will never be able to fight the taliban, if the fight is viewed as an american fight......plain and simple.....taliban are hated; americans are hated even more......

This is a classic example of wanting to cut your nose to spite someone elses face.

Fundementally, Pakistanis are not able to recognise their national interest, nor see a threat under their noses. But are very good at seeing threats which are not there.

OTOH, the rent seeking mentality of the elite - short cut to riches - seem to always take over under all circumstances.

As they say you can take the horse to the water but you cannot make it drink

Romair,

You say you have a lot of friends in the Pak military. What are they saying?

Re: # 267 bulleya
.the point i am making, or the two points i am making, is that pakistan will never be able to fight the taliban, if the fight is viewed as an american fight......plain and simple.....taliban are hated; americans are hated even more......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You are wrong when you say that people view this war as US's war only. They know this war is now their war and those who have brought this war into their areas are Talebans and Pakistani army. Armies all over the world do their utmost to keep any war out of their country whereas Musharraf the great commando and the Pakistani army generals deliberately brought this war into Pakistan.

Whenever Pakistani army went into FATA or any other areas of NWFP to fight Talebans they were welcomed by the local people and they even fought along with the army against Talebans. But unfortunately Pakistani army always ended up killing more innocent civilians than Talibans, it always made a peace deal and left the area and its people at the mercy of Talebans. Even hundreds of Maliks who were pro Pakistan were slaughtered right under army's nose but it didn't take any action to save their lives.

In the western provinces people hate Talebans more than they hate America and don't trust Pakistani army any more.

The only people who still consider it America's war are the Generals of Pakistani army.

and the mental fatigue of public vis-a-vis the regular politicians would propel them to move towards Taliban...

accept it or not...when i heard the girl (who was flogged) backpedalled, i felt sure Taliban has only one way to go...they are going to rule Pakistan and people may like them because of the ease of accessibility...

the main appeal would be that the Talibs not wanting material wealth...they would not loot people (like the regular politicians and babus) but just impose more codes...it would give a feeling that Talibs would make the society more egalitarian...

its long time from now before they wane...

Nkg moshai,

Looks like you have developed the same ailment as Harishbhai.

Regards

Re: # 279
Majumder...
NRT...Non Resident Taliban...

Bull...

Punju sardars have the ability to screw pathans on their own turf...I don't think, the next battle of Panipath will be very easy for pathans....

Re: # 279
Majumder...
NRT...Non Resident Taliban...

Bull...

Punju sardars have the ability to screw pathans on their own turf...I don't think, the next battle of Panipath will be very easy for pathans....

#280 by nb

If he was such a genius, he should have realised that a perfect state like the one he envisaged was impossible, because people are fallible.

nb, I've argued over this point with Yasser for several years now, as you might be aware. But listening to them, one gets the impression that the man was as innocent as a schoolkid.

Harish, buy a new keyboard for the love of Chiranjeevi

If it were my home computer, I would.

Harish, Majumdar, I'm really tired of Majumdar going on about Jinnah. If he was such a genius, he should have realised that a perfect state like the one he envisaged was impossible, because people are fallible.
Harish, buy a new keyboard for the love of Chiranjeevi.

Anil-ji,

.....Questioning loyalties of people (ncluding Hamidm, Tahmed, Urstruly) will only deplete your ranks, while Taliban ranks are probably swelling. .....

There was no need to include Urstruly in that list. Urstruly is with Taliboon, not with Pakistan.

Regards

#273 by nkg

Qaid's Pakistan (if that is MAJ) was not much different from what is Pakistan now...the moment he allowed violence related to DAD and tribal invastion of Kashmir...he ensured that Pakistan will never be a modern state....

Exactly!

#273 by nkg

Qaid's Pakistan (if that is MAJ) was not much different from what is Pakistan now...the moment he allowed violence related to DAD and tribal invastion of Kashmir...he ensured that Pakistan will never be a modern state....

Exactly!

#273 by nkg

Qaid's Pakistan (if that is MAJ) was not much different from what is Pakistan now...the moment he allowed violence related to DAD and tribal invastion of Kashmir...he ensured that Pakistan will never be a modern state....

Exactly!

Romair:

I can read anger and frustration in your posts. Pakistan is going though one of the most difficult period. Questioning loyalties of people (ncluding Hamidm, Tahmed, Urstruly) will only deplete your ranks, while Taliban ranks are probably swelling.

damn..if the taliban target capt clueless, who'll help VP/CIO types in the west set up their IT departments?

and, like capt clueless told us, for an IT company to be successful, it needs paki management skills...

woe is us!! the IT industry is doomed...

Re: # 271
Majumder...
Qaid's Pakistan (if that is MAJ) was not much different from what is Pakistan now...the moment he allowed violence related to DAD and tribal invastion of Kashmir...he ensured that Pakistan will never be a modern state....here lies the greatness of Gandhi over anybody else....

Re: # 128
BJ2...
when a child caress his mother's breast, does he treat it as sexual object?...you need to control yourself to conquer desire...that is where the beauty of yoga is.....I will like you to study the life story of Ramakrishna....

Regarding flogging of the girl in SWAT...the incident is not much of different from that in Mangalore....only the dress and brutality changed....in the matter of torturing women, India is champion....

Romair,

If dissociating from USA's WOT speeds up the fight against the Taliban, so be it. But Talibs and like forces have to be beaten if the Qaid's Pakistan has to survive.

Regards

#267 by bulleya

......i have been informed (hopefully incorrectly) the area around the office i go to has been declared a suicide target.....

What? Even the Taliban have become so fed up of your BS?

Romair,

the cream of pakistan's professional technical elite will be gone.......

You shud have avoided the bolded part with arjun mian lurking around.

Regards

remember how capt clueless was all in favor of pakiland supporting jihadis against india?

karma..it's what's for dinner...


TIMELINE-Attacks destabilise strife-torn Pakistan

REUTERS
Reuters North American News Service

Apr 05, 2009 04:46 EST

April 5 (Reuters) - A suicide bomber blew himself up in a religious centre for minority Shi'ite Muslims in central Pakistan on Sunday, killing at least 17 people, a day after a deadly suicide attack in the capital, officials said.

Militant violence has surged in nuclear-armed Pakistan in the last two years, with numerous attacks on security forces and government and Western targets. Following is a timeline of major attacks in Pakistan since late 2007:

Oct. 19, 2007 - At least 139 people are killed in a suicide bomb attack on former prime minister Benazir Bhutto's motorcade as she is driven through the financial capital of Karachi at the end of eight years of exile. She was unhurt.

Dec. 21 - A suicide bomber kills at least 41 people in a mosque in Charsadda district, in the North West Frontier Province (NWFP), during the Muslim Eid festival prayers.

Dec. 27 - Bhutto is killed in a gun and bomb attack after a rally in northern garrison town of Rawalpindi. At least 16 others are killed.

Feb. 29, 2008 - A suicide attack on a police funeral kills 40 people in the turbulent northwestern district of Swat, 160 km (100 miles) from Pakistan's capital, Islamabad.

March 2 - At least 40 people are killed as suicide bomber attacks a gathering of tribal elders in Darra Adam Khel, a northwestern tribal region.

March 11 - Two suicide car bombers kill 24, most of them in an attack on a government security office in the country's second largest city, Lahore, near the Pakistan-India border.

March 15 - A bomb attack at an Italian restaurant in Islamabad, a favourite hangout for foreigners, kills a Turkish woman and wounds several others, including four FBI agents.

Aug. 19 - Suspected suicide bomber kills 23 in compound of hospital in Dera Ismail Khan in the NWFP, southwest of Islamabad, as Shi'ite Muslims protest a leader's killing.

Aug. 21 - Two suicide bombers blow themselves up outside the main defence industry complex in Wah, 30 km (18 miles) northwest of Islamabad. Nearly 50 people are killed and about 70 wounded.

Sept. 20 - Suicide truck bomb attack blamed on Islamist militants kills 55 people, destroys Marriott hotel in Islamabad.

Dec. 5 - A car bomb kills at least 20 people and wounds scores in Peshawar, capital of NWFP.

Dec. 28 - At least 30 people are killed in a suicide car bomb blast at a polling station near Buner, in the NWFP, during a by-election for a provincial assembly.

Feb. 5, 2009 - At least 24 people are killed in a suspected suicide bombing near Shi'ite mosque in Dera Ghazi Khan, central Pakistan.

Feb. 20 - Suicide bomber kills 27 people and wounds 65 in an attack on a funeral procession for a Shi'ite Muslim killed a day earlier in Dera Ismail Khan.

March 3 - Gunmen attack a bus carrying Sri Lanka's cricket team outside a Lahore stadium, killing seven people, including six policemen and a driver, and wounding six of the cricketers and a British coach.

March 27 - A suicide bomber kills 37 people when he blows himself up in a crowded Pakistani mosque near the Afghan border. Among the dead are 14 policemen and paramilitary soldiers.

March 30 - Militants armed with guns and grenades storm a police training centre in Lahore killing eight recruits, wounding scores and holding off police and troops for eight hours. The attack is claimed by Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud. Four militants are killed and three arrested.

April 5 - A suicide bomber blows himself up in a religious centre for minority Shi'ite Muslims in Chakwal in central Pakistan. At least 17 people are killed and around 11 seriously wounded. The attack comes a day after a suicide attack in Islamabad killed eight paramilitary troops in Islamabad.

majumdar #: "Having said that, Pakistan has to fight Taliban, they are not going to stop even if USA quits A'stan or India give up Kashmir."

...yes, this is definitely true....and there is widespread national agreement on this....an example of this, is that taliban cannot even dream of getting elected....what to talk of taliban, even mainstream relatively sane religious parties can barely win 1-3% of the seats in pakistan.....

take a look at the govt. people elected in nwfp - anp and ppp - the two most secular parties in pakistan......

.....the point i am making, or the two points i am making, is that pakistan will never be able to fight the taliban, if the fight is viewed as an american fight......plain and simple.....taliban are hated; americans are hated even more......

.....point no. 2 is that the number of civilians being kiiled by american drones and by pakistan military actions, is only making the taliban phenomenon stronger......they are gaining sympathizers.......

........people are in two minds....they hate the taliban for flogging the girl and for suicide bombings.....but they respect them for fighting the usa in afghanistan.....when pakistan fights taliban, as a us ally, people don't know whether to support pakistan military or to oppose it.......

when the taliban say, so many innocent civilians were killed in a us drone attack, and they say, in retaliation, they will kill police and army in suicide bombings, people don't know which way to go......

so, there is only one way to take on the taliban.....and that is to nullify their raison d etre of the taliban......i.e. stop supporting the usa, in any way form or manner......force them to stop drone attacks...and if that cannot be enforced, then at least not support it......

a girl flogged by taliban is bad, but the same girl killed by a usa drone is much worse......

......once pakistan govt. is seen to be out of gwot, i am quite sure, there will be a drastic decrease, if not disappearance of suicide attacks in pakistan (they only started after pakistan sent forces into fata)........this will stablize the intellegensia, and will keep them from migrating......

......this will, however, not remove the taliban from swat etc.....as much of that is thuggery and nothing else......

that is when pakistan govt. will be able to get the whole country, all the soldiers etc. behind this war.......that is when the taliban will be weak, and that is when pakistan should take on the taliban, on its terms, for its interests, and not for the usa's......

i.e. if they need to be bombed, it should only be done by pakistan, and for pakistan's interests.......

otherwise, trust me, this war will be lost in pakistan......pakistan will be nothing but a cycle of drone attacks and suicide bombings.....

to give you an idea of what is happening now......i have been informed (hopefully incorrectly) the area around the office i go to has been declared a suicide target.....now if that office goes, the cream of pakistan's professional technical elite will be gone.......

this is what everyone in pakistan is going through.......not just me.......

after that, their families and others like them will leave pakistan, in a hearbeat, with or without taliban......then we will have nothing left but tahmad and hamidm mian encouraging eveyone from pakistanis to indians to americans in fighting the taliban, from the comforts of their keyboards......

#265 Posted by harish_hyd on April 5, 2009 11:46:26 pm

sounds like I need to print a tshirt with an image of a fox and sour grapes...

Is it just a coincidence that as long as Captain Clueless was living "comfortably abroad (read America)" (as he now accuses other expatriates of), he was a rather passionate advocate of the American invasion of Afghanistan (in fact the man wanted to give up his career in IT and lead American troops into the country). When he was kicked out to Canada, he began sounding disillusioned (but not totally against) of what America was doing. Now that he's back in Pakistan, he's become an outright opponent of the America's Afghanistan strategy?

#259 Posted by tahmed32 on April 5, 2009 11:33:43 pm


but what about the Pakistnais in Pakistan who are not beghairats like you???


prophetboy...does this include the paki security establishment that is still backing jihadis?

#257 Posted by bulleya on April 5, 2009 11:23:31 pm


why not put your money where your mouth is, and get involved in this war.....what is the point of pushing other people into wars, when you yourself will never get involved......


our taxes pay for the pakiwhackers...so we're pretty involved...

in fact, i'm thinking of getting a tshirt with a predator/pakiwhacker photo on it...

#260 bulleya: quit bleating the same tune and respond to the question i had for you. and see third para. of #259 as my response to the cheap shot you are taking to hide your wet pants every time some mullah issues a threat to the Pakistani people.

#258 majumdar: see #259 as my response.

tahmad#: you, hamidm mian and urstruly are all cut from the same cloth....as mentioned below, you will, always, be parasites on any society,where you live.....

urstruly will push what is happening in swat, but will never have the courage to go to swat.....he will want america hammered in afghanistan, but will never have the conviction to join in that war....he will push war against india, and freedom of kashmir, but will never volunteer in that war either......

he will sit comfortably in the usa.....

you and hamidm mian will push the destruction of iraq and afghanistan, and will cheer the us forces....but will never ever volunteer to join that war......you will want other peoples' kids killed, but will never risk your own......this is your payback to the usa......

.....in pakistan, you will support all kinds of violence, and will the first in line to support going against the forces that urstruly supports......but much like urstruly, you will yourself, never even live (or work) in the country, in the environment that is created because of that violence.......

much like people like you destroyed iraq, you will destroy pakistan also.....all from the comforts of your keyboards in the usa.......

i wonder what would happen if people like you were, all of a sudden, put on the frontlines of all the wars you support......

if you are so up in arms about the taliban, why not come to pakistan and fight them.......or at least join an ngo that is active in fata and swat etc. and go work there......

bulleya: I asked you a question: Is harish hyd correct when he implies that if an intruder entered your house, you would offer to help him have a go at the missus if he doesnt hurt you?

And if not, isnt this exactly what you are saying when you ignore the thousands of pakistanis who have been butchered by these animals, and ignore this latest outrage caught on camera that has led even a former taliban supporter to declare he is no longer supporting them (see letters in Dawn)??

You can take cheap shots at me by claiming my sitting in the US makes any difference - but what about the Pakistnais in Pakistan who are not beghairats like you??? Some of them even come to chowk (like Adam Khan) - even MQM had a moment of silence in sympathy with this girl and even the scoundrel altaf spoke out for hanging the flogger.

You have to be the most beghairat individual in Pakistan today.

Tahmed sahib,

I am afraid Romair has a point. People like him who have actually left USA to go back to Pak have a point. They and the native Pakis are the ones who have to pay the price for GOP's decision.

Having said that, Pakistan has to fight Taliban, they are not going to stop even if USA quits A'stan or India give up Kashmir.

Regards

tahmad #: "quit peeing in your pants every time the mullah issues a threat, you coward. The beating of this poor girl has touched a raw nerve in every Pakistani except the beghairats."

....that is quite a statement from someone who is, safely, sitting in the comforts of the usa......i am sitting right in the middle of where the battle is going on....

so between the two of us, who is the coward?

why not put your money where your mouth is, and get involved in this war.....what is the point of pushing other people into wars, when you yourself will never get involved......

people like you are parasites on any society, they adapt.....you pushed american kids into wars in iraq and afghanistan, but would never volunteer yourselves, or your kids.......now you want pakistanis to fight this war, but will never participate in it yourself......

during the past few weeks, there has been a suicide bombing across the street from where our family house is.....there has been one, in the area, where my family was visiting, right after they left....and if there will be two a week, then the city will empty out......

trust me, it is long distance keyboard warriors like you, who are the cowards.......

as for the flogging of the girl, it did touch a raw nerve......if it touched one in you, then why not come to pakistan and do something about it......

the more the usa bombs pakistan and the more pakistan stays involved in this gwot, the stronger the taliban will get....there will be more violence, and more people will migrate out to join you......

bulleya: address the chowkies who are here, you coward. I am here. harish_hyd is here. yeh hamidm kahaan yaad aa gyaa??

is it true as harish hyd implies, e.g., that if a burglar entered your house you would hold down the missus and tell him to have a go at her but not to hurt you?

hamidm mian #: is your family staying put in pakistan, or are you assisting them with their immigration process.....

As I've said before, Captain Clueless is the sort of person who, if an attacker entered his house and threatened to molest the inmates, would request him to take control of the house but not harm anyone inside.

With soldiers like him, is it any wonder the Paki military has never won a war, not even against a ragtag outfit that the Taliban is, what to talk of against a regular army.

....the ultimate downfall of a country doesn't come through wars, and famines etc......as long as there is someone left to rebuild the country, and there is a system under which they can work, it survives and even prospers.....japan and germany went through a lot worse in ww II, than pakistan is going through today.....but they survived.....

the ultimate downfall comes, when the educated professionals and intellegensia - the groups through which the country competes in the int'l arena - decide to migrate out.....once that happens, the downfall is immediate.....

this is the reason that pakistan has survived, despite being threatened heavily by india etc.....however, things are different now.....

the suicide bombings are taking a heavy toll....i go around offices in pakistan, and people who had survived through the worst economic and social crises in pakistan, but never thought of leaving, are starting to plan....

their main concern is their children......they feel their children will eventually get hit.....after than gwot, or afghanistan will have no meaning......

i can make a bet that hamidm mian, for all his cheering of pushing pakistanis to fight taliban, is, secretly planning and assisting his remaining family members' exit from pakistan.....i know him,and his priorities far too well.....he will want pakistanis to fight through suicide bombs, but just not him and his near family......

....a drone attack, followed by suicide bombs, followed by drone attacks, in a never ending war will have one affect.....all the pakistanis who can leave pakistan (including hamidm mian's brothers and sisters) will leave....

that is the only way the taliban can move into pakistan.....and it is on the verge of happening......

pakistan's first and foremost priority should be to ensure suicide attacks come down to zero......fighting taliban etc. is a second priority.....fighting in usa's gwot should not be a priority at all........unless, of course, there are americans who feel the pain, and shed tears, everytime a suicide bomb explodes in pakistan and someone dies......

bulleya #251 quit peeing in your pants every time the mullah issues a threat, you coward. The beating of this poor girl has touched a raw nerve in every Pakistani except the beghairats.

Following is a gist of the future pakistan has in front of it, if it continues being a frontline ally of the usa:

"A Taliban commander on Sunday claimed responsibility for the suicide attack on the FC camp in Islamabad and promised that they would carry out two suicide attacks per week.

“We claim responsibility for the Islamabad suicide attack. It was in retaliation for a drone attack in Orakzai,� Taliban commander Hakimullah, a close aide of feared Taliban chief Baitullah Mehsud, said.

“We have shown enough restraint,� he said. “Previously, we were striking once in three months, but from now onward we will go for at least two suicide attacks a week.� Hakimullah warned the government of more attacks if missile strikes by US drones continued in the tribal region. “In Islamabad we have been successful to hit our target and we will launch more attacks in retaliation for drone attacks,� he said." (www.jang.com.pk)

....pakistan will be bombed by us drones one day and then there will be suicide bombings....in both these cases, many innocent pakistanis will get killed.....and in both these cases, by entities, which are at war with each other (usa and taliban), but with whom pakistan does not want war....

......i have not met anyone in pakistan who is gung-ho about pakistan's actions against the taliban.....pakistanis realize that any sane nation would have gotten out of this fight, after the first suicide bombing (much like spain did).....

if the usa, itself, had two suicide bombings a week in new york, or detroit etc., it would have gotten out of afghanistan, long ago.....there would have been too much public pressure.....

......while the hatred against taliban is high, the hatred against the usa, in pakistan, is now sky high.....everyone from the liberals to the conservatives, are openly hateful of the usa.......

the feel the usa is not allowing pakistan to get out of this war....the usa will keep carrying out drone attacks, which will result in further suicide bombs......

i doubt anyone in the usa is concerned about pakistanis getting killed.....i am amazed how concerned the pakistani govt. is regarding saving a single american life.....

......i think at some point something is bound to give.....either the public pressure on the govt. will be so high that they will have to dump the usa.......or the suicide bombings will take such a toll, that all the educated professionals in pakistan, who can run banks, telcos, IT etc. will migrate out......

the later will leave behind a gap, which will, then be easily filled by the taliban.......

the usa policy of putting pressure on pakistan to destroy itself, by, "doing more" is, obviously counterproductive......it is making everyone very anti-usa....and will destablize pakistan further......

unless, of course, the ultimate aim of the usa is to destabilize pakistan....in which case it is working as planned......

.......interestingly, people have a respect-hate relationship with the taliban now.....the respect them for taking on the usa (which is hated even more than the taliban), and hate them for the suicide bombings, floggings etc......

another strange consensus emerging is that baitullah is sponsored by the americans (which is why, people think usa never goes after him) and is financed by india....

in any case, the pakistan govts' job should be to protect pakistanis.....not to protect americans.....unfortunately, no political leader, other than imran khan, has the guts to state this publicly......

#249 Posted by ahmedmadani on April 5, 2009 10:17:22 pm

now prophetboy will be along condemning altaf..

the ISI and the paki security establishment supporting the jihadis? he's fine with that...

THere only one quaid E Awam who is living, SES (Sher E Sindh) and that is honorable Altaf Hussainbhai who wants action not cheap words. Let Bha Sahib live 1000 years to save and serve people. Kindly read.
"demands public hanging of culprits




Monday, April 06, 2009
MQM observes black day against flogging of Swat girl; ‘we oppose Talibanisation not Pukhtoons’

By Fasahat Mohiuddin

KARACHI: Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) Quaid Altaf Hussain on Sunday demanded of President Zardari, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and Interior Adviser Rehman Malik to publicly hang those who had flogged a young girl in Swat. He also demanded that they should be hanged.

He made this demand while delivering a telephonic address on Sunday at a massively-attended MQM women wing’s rally at the mausoleum of Quaid-i-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah. The Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) observed a peaceful black day all over the country, including Karachi, on Sunday, vehemently condemning the flogging of the young girl in Swat. The rally was the culminating event.

Protests were also held in other parts of the country, including Mirpurkhas, Hyderabad, Umerkot in Sindh and parts of the Punjab. Protests were also registered by MQM in parts of England and some states of the USA.

Lashing out at Ulema who had issued statements in support of flogging, Altaf said as per the Quranic verses, the girl could only be punished if four pious eyewitnesses, who prayed five times a day, were produced. He added if these people failed to produce such witnesses, then the people who had flogged the girl should be whipped publicly 80 times.

Altaf also lashed out at the Taliban and said they were defaming Islam. The MQM chief made it clear that he was not against the Pakhtuns but opposing the Talibanisation of the society, adding he did not accept the Shariah of the Taliban.

He referred to a report prepared by the MQM Rabita Committee, and disclosed that the incident had taken place after the federal and the NWFP governments entered into a ‘peace deal’ with the Taliban, adding the provincial government was denying this fact.

He said according to investigative reports, the marriage of the girl and the boy was forcibly solemnised and now the boy was under immense mental pressure. One of the brothers of the girl works in Saudi Arabia and the victim had done intermediate from a college in Mingora, he said.

Altaf disclosed the Taliban had been chasing both the boy and the girl. He demanded of the authorities concerned to save them from these elements. In a emotional tone, Altaf said this act of the Taliban had brought shame to the entire nation. He demanded that those responsible for this act be publicly flogged to death.

He further said he had been repeatedly cautioned about the danger posed by the Talibanisation in Pakistan, including Karachi, but the authorities had turned deaf ears to his warnings and they themselves saw how the girl was flogged.

Earlier, the MQM workers hoisted black flags, banners and posters all over the city, particularly in Saddar, Mazar-i-Quaid, MA Jinnah Road and at the party’s headquarters, Nine-Zero in Azizabad. A majority of the town administrations had also made special arrangements to observe the black day peacefully.

The banners read: “The whole nation is ashamed of the flogging of the nation’s daughter in the name of so-called Islam being spread by the Taliban and this heinous crime should not go unpunished.� Others asked how long “Eve’s daughters� will be tortured.

Youngsters belonging to the MQM tied black flags to motorcycles and wore armbands while riding around the city. The MQM workers, including women, kept visiting the party headquarters to condemn the flogging of the girl.

They chanted slogans against the Talibanisation and cursed the so-called custodians of Islam for committing this shameful act which, they said, was totally against the Shariah and the law of the land.

The MQM women’s wing also staged a demonstration at the Mazar of Quaid-i-Azam Mohammed Ali Jinnah and chanted slogans against the spread of the Talibanisation in the country.

They urged the chief justice of Pakistan, President Asif Zardari and Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani to provide speedy justice to the young girl. Women protesters also urged parliament to hold detailed deliberations on this issue so that incidents of subjecting women to torture and suppression in the name of Islam or Karo-Kari should be stopped once for all.

They demanded that the culprits who had flogged the girl be awarded exemplary punishment. The rally was also joined by various trade organisations and NGOs, as well as members of the general public. The protesters later released black balloons in the air."
"Long live MQM Supremo"

quick prophetboy....close your eyes....find a hole to bury your head in..reality ahead

‘Mehsud has pals in high places’

LAHORE: Baitullah Mehsud, the brazen Taliban chief based in Waziristan, has been able to escape several attempts to kill and capture him because he has friends in Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, according to a Newsweek report. An “increasingly-emboldened� Mehsud has claimed credit for several attacks in Pakistan and also threatening to attack the US. "Soon we will launch an attack in Washington that will amaze everyone in the world," he told the Associated Press last week. An unnamed Pakistani official told Newsweek that senior US officials had even shared with their counterparts in Islamabad “some intelligence indicating that renegade ISI elements helped Mehsud's group train for the December 2007 assassination of Pakistan's former prime minister Benazir Bhutto�. But despite that and Pakistan's purported knowledge of his whereabouts, “it's a puzzle why they're ignoring and avoiding any strike against him,� one tribal elder in the region told the magazine. “On several occasions over the past couple of years, security forces in Pakistan have launched operations to kill or capture him, and each time he has vanished without incident,� the magazine writes citing unnamed officials in Islamabad and Washington. “Mehsud's contacts, the theory goes, are tipping him off before Pakistani troops can pounce.� "Baitullah is very much mixed up in Afghanistan and with Al Qaeda," said one Afghan Taliban commander, adding that Mehsud was capable of shipping foreign fighters into Afghanistan "and even [farther] west". Washington does not take the threats seriously, according to the Newsweek, but also does not rule out Mehsud could be cooperating with Al Qaeda. daily times monitor

Mohammad enters his classroom


- What is your name? asked the teacher.

- Mohammad, answered the kid.

- Here we are in France , there is no Mohammad,from now on your name will be Jean-Francois, replied the teacher

In the evening, Mohamed returned home.

- The day went well, Mohammad? asked his mother.

- My name is not Mohammad,i am in France and my name is Jean-Francois

- Ah, are you ashamed with your name, are you trying to disown your Parents????? your heritage ????? Shame on you .......and ##$%$# she beats him


Then she called the father and %$%#$%^he beats him very hard



the next day Mohamed returned to school



When the teacher saw him with all the bruises she asked:


- What happened my little Jean-Francois.



-Well Miss , 2hours after becoming French I was attacked by two Arabs.

Oh look prophetboy....the new york times is in on the pndit hatred too...they're besmirching the reputation of the land of the pure as wind driven snow..

April 6, 2009
News Analysis
Time Is Short as U.S. Presses Pakistan, a Reluctant Ally

By JANE PERLEZ

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan — President Obama’s strategy of offering Pakistan a partnership to defeat the insurgency here calls for a virtual remaking of this nation’s institutions and even of the national psyche, an ambitious agenda that Pakistan’s politicians and people appear unprepared to take up.

Even before the insurgency has been fully engaged, however, many Pakistanis have concluded that reaching an accommodation with the militants is preferable to fighting them. Some, including mid-ranking soldiers, choose to see the militants not as the enemy, but as fellow Muslims who are deserving of greater sympathy than are the American aims.

The distrust has been heightened by charges from American officials, including General Petraeus and Mr. Holbrooke, that Pakistan’s spy agency is still supporting the Islamic militants who pour over the border to fight American troops in Afghanistan.

The lack of trust was evident, military analysts said, in the American refusal to consider a request from the Pakistani military that it operate the remotely piloted aircraft the C.I.A. has been using to hit the militants in the tribal areas.

The Americans have been stingy on even the more basic tools for guerrilla warfare, like helicopter gunships and night-vision goggles, which Pakistan has requested for the past three years, Pakistani military officials say. There are still doubts that Washington will deliver such equipment speedily, they say.

Then there is India. Its growing presence in Afghanistan — the building of roads; the opening since 2001 of two consulates in two cities close to Pakistan — makes Pakistan believe it is being encircled, said Ishaq Khan Khakwani, a former senator from the Pakistan Muslim League-Q party.

The deep questioning about why the Pakistani Army should fight the Taliban reaches well down into the ranks of the soldiers and their families. Dissent on that goal has become increasingly prevalent among rank-and-file soldiers, and even in the officer corps, said Riffat Hussain, a professor of international relations at Quaid-i-Azam University here who also lectures to soldiers at the National Defense University.

There have been at least a half-dozen reported courts-martial of soldiers who refused to fight, and the real number was probably larger, Professor Hussain said.

In Jhelum, a town 100 miles south of Islamabad and a place with a proud military history, one village had shown in the boldest terms the anger about the military fighting Muslims on Pakistani soil, said Enver Baig, a former senator with the Pakistan Peoples Party, who considers himself a pro-American politician.

When the body of a soldier killed in the tribal areas was taken home to his family last year, the father refused to accept his son’s coffin, Mr. Baig said.

Instead, the father took off his shoe and used it to slap the army officer who had escorted the body.

A month later, when another soldier’s body was delivered to the same village, the army left the body on the village outskirts, Mr. Baig said.

Re: # 243 nkg:

- How did you arrive at the $300bn figure. There is no such proposal floated from any of the parties having interest in Kashmir.

- "muslas living in UP and Bihar? They are far worse than Pakistani muslas.....". I am no fan of UP/Bihar walas, but at least appreciate that nowadays they do indulge in frequent riots as in 70s and 80s. They are much quiter nowadays.

#241 Posted by major on April 5, 2009 7:51:15 pm



india isn't a factor in the paki civil war.. ok..I guess iran is then...after all, strategic depth, the strategy that led the paki state to create the jihadi monster, was aimed at iran...even now, the paki army isn't wholeheartedly taking on the talipakis because they want to use them against iran...

The ability of the paki mind to delude itself boggles..

Re: # 237
Pardesi...
India is doing that. The problem is, large number of Pakistani population supports jihadi militancy in J & K. So, the best solution from Pakistani establishment should be to convince India to hand over Kashmir to Pakistan. I would have advocated that (for some 300bn US$ sponsored by Saudis)- a win win for both India and Pakistan....but somehow, the way they started supporting Kashmiri jihadi movement (not much different from Talibs of Afghanistan) Islam/Korun-Public Donation Box-Mosque/Madressa based terrorist training Centres-Gulf money...this setup will not vanish overnight...demand may not stop at Kashmir alone...and what will you do with muslas living in UP and Bihar? They are far worse than Pakistani muslas.....

Re: # 222
devrandom...
Indian leaders (specialy that from Congress) were far worse than Paki leaders. At least Paki leaders were polished and wise. I don't see any Nehru like figure, who has destroyed a country for 3 generations and once people got rid of them, the country started prospering little bit....Pakistani political establishment got very less opportunity to administer Pakistan....

ok - we know mullah32 is an idi0t, but let's indulge him... if india were a relevant factor in paki politics - then pakis would blame india even more for their own follies - just like they US right now...

Anycase - how can India establish itself as a "factor" in paki "politics" where entire paki poltics and ideology is based on being anti-india?... LOL

Pardesi #237 That would certainly help expose the bluff of those in the Pakistan military who refuse to go all out against the taliban. But if the Indian government was that smart, it wouldnt have steadily reduced itself to basically an irrelevant factor in Pakistan politics, good only as an excuse by taliban-sympathizing traitors in Pakistan.

Re: # 236

"...What kind of system and society would have him, with his pathetic knowledge of almost everything, including Islam for which he supposedly stands up, as a public figure?..." Ejaz Haider

Wow, Ejaz Haider so accurately described dear Masadi ji.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

The best help India can give is a guarantee that there would be no shaitani on the border when Pakistan uses its forces (as many as needed) to clear Taliban threat. This guarantee can be enforced by US/Western/Chinese forces stationed at the India/Pakistan borders.

What's needed is right ordering of Pakistani priorities and balls to do it's own dirty work rather than looking for others to do it.

HE OTHER COLUMN: Up shitcreek —Ejaz Haider

Listen to Haji Muslim Khan on tv channels. What kind of system and society would have him, with his pathetic knowledge of almost everything, including Islam for which he supposedly stands up, as a public figure?

Apropos the faith -reviving video from Swat: let me congratulate, not necessarily in the same order, various people — Mr Imran Khan, the Jama’at-e Islami leadership, Lt-Gen Hameed Napoleon Gul, the ANP government in the NWFP, the majority of Urdu-language columnists, some English ones who write poetic prose, and yes, tv anchors and my fellow Pakistanis.

Finally, we have something to emulate, straight from the pure times of the rightly-guided caliphs. Islam, ladies and gentlemen, is here. General Zia’s dream has been fulfilled. Allah be praised.

Since yesterday I have this strange sensation coursing through my veins, the feeling one gets after reading about the brave Muslims of yore in a Naseem Hijazi novel. I can’t forget the sight of three specimens of Islam’s purity, two of them pinning down a fallen young woman and one flogging her backside for having allegedly committed zina while the girl, may she be damned, cried and repented.

This is Islamic justice at its most effective. It is simple, straight, speedy, effective, earthy and devoid of the meanderings and trappings of modern existence, historical accretions and bid’a-infested innovations. That’s the stuff the satanic West is made of.

Okay, sure. I am bullshitting. But really? How far from the truth am I? Let me recount.

Columnist upon columnist has been writing about the brave Taliban in Afghanistan; how Taliban rule had recreated khilafat-e rashida; how there was peace in that country; how everyone was secure and so on.

Mr Khan has been hell-bent on reversing all his great contributions to this country, both as a scintillating cricketer and a remarkable philanthropist, by misguiding this nation on issues of politics and inter-state relations — about which his knowledge rivals only that of a kindergarten student. He has been talking incessantly about ghairat, how this is not our war and how our sovereignty is under attack from outside etc etc.

The Napoleon, Lt-Gen Gul — or shall I say Hans Guderian, since Gen Gul is an armoured corps officer and not a gunner — has been mouthing his conceptions of grand strategies even as he carries the weight on his shoulders of the shameful defeat in Jalababad, a veritable fiasco.

The religious parties, especially JI, have been fudging issues and telling lies about everything under the sun.

C’mon folks. Go back and focus on the discourse in this country. From news anchors and tv hosts to columnists and experts and politicians. Revisit the days of the extraction operation against Lal Masjid and how we dealt with that. Recall how we have done everything possible to pull down the state in our enthusiasm to voice dissent on the basis of democracy which, incidentally, will be the first concept to lick the dust when the warriors come knocking on the doors.

I had a hard time deciding how to deal with this issue of the flogging of a girl in Swat: express my deep resentment at the obscenity I saw or congratulate fellow Pakistanis for having successfully brought the state to this. Listen carefully to what people say on tv; deconstruct the discourse; discover the lies; the dissembling; the fudging and you would know why the flogging happened in Swat.

I carried an article some weeks ago in these pages by Nasir Abbas Mirza (“How we lost Swat�, Daily Times, March 9). Go and reread it to see how and why Swat has been lost and how and why we are likely to lose the rest of Pakistan. I see outrage now. Why? Was everyone sleeping?

The Urdu-language tv channels, for the most part, should be ashamed of the role they have played in giving airtime to the likes of Mr Khan, our various Napoleons and moronic politicians; for asking leading questions; for allowing them the opportunity to mouth crap; for supporting extremists in the name of jihad; for giving these thugs an aura of respectability and acceptability.

So what the hell are we shocked about? Sow the wind and reap the whirlwind. It’s as simple as that. We are still unclear and confused about the threat. Every outrage begets a standard response: “Muslims can’t do this; this is a conspiracy�. In which case, we deserve what happened in Swat; in fact, far from expressing any outrage, we should celebrate the incident.

The truth, however, is that Muslims can do this and more. They are doing it and will continue to do it. Listen to Haji Muslim Khan on tv channels. What kind of system and society would have him, with his pathetic knowledge of almost everything, including Islam for which he supposedly stands up, as a public figure?

Listen to his fudging and his threats. Listen to what ANP minister Zahid Khan had to say about this being the tip of the iceberg. The question is not about when this incident was filmed but the fact that it did happen; also, that the Taliban, according to their admission, have been giving these punishments and will continue to do so since this is what shariat calls for.

Well, how about telling them to stuff it; that we do not accept such barbaric and medieval practices in today’s world; that Pakistani society is sophisticated enough to reject, in categorical terms, the obscenity the Taliban stand for.

Are we prepared to do it; or will we remain confused about the nature, direction and extent of this threat?

Finally, hello Pakistan Army. Are you guys there? I remember the in-camera briefing given to a select group of analysts back in November 2007. We were told that come March 2008, Swat would be reclaimed. Whatever the hell happened to that? Would someone tell me?

But before I sign off, let me make a confession. Insert in all spaces whatever expletives you can think of because they are all there. That’s the kind of column I wanted to write.

Who gives a f*** about niceties, intellectual and of other varieties, in the face of an existential threat that a collection of people has brought upon itself simply because they have some morbid notion of religion coursing through the body politic. I don’t.

So, fellow Pakistanis, here you are: up shitcreek without a paddle. Enjoy!

Ejaz Haider is Consulting Editor of The Friday Times and Op-Ed Editor of Daily Times. He can be reached at sapper@dailytimes.com.pk

prophetboy...don't go beheading your wife like that bridges tv guy...

Suicide attacks result of US policies: Imran

http://www.geo.tv/4-5-2009/39137.htm


LAHORE: Chief of Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf, Imran Khan and other leaders of the country expressing concern on the increasing terrorist activities, have demanded of the government to give up what they called being slave to the US and ensure safety to the life and property of the people.

In a statement issued here, Imran Khan and other leaders of TI condemned the drone attacks in North and South Waziristan and the suicide attacks in Islamabad, Chakwal and Miranshah.

#233 arjun90: i protest this indian sweatshop that forces you to stay on duty on chowk even over weekends, repeating the 10 gora phrases they taught you and the chimpanzee in the next cage!! even india-men have rights!!

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hamidm: so which is the real hamidm - the martial-race-conqueror-of-kashmir hamidm or sheikh-rashid's-lota hamidm?

Re: # 205 Posted by hamidm2 on April 5, 2009


Hamid mian,

Are you now ready for asking UNSC to send in an international force under Chapter 7 to get rid of the ills facing the state of Pakistan?

[.. please help us instead of lecturing us ! ....... help!]

Only an international force can save the Pakistani state.

Remember US is bound by War powers act to operate in Afghanistan only. Besides there is more work to be done in FATA than in Afghanistan.

So are you willing now to accept some humility?

Re: # 211 Posted by hamidm2 on April 5, 2009 6:35:11 am

Hamid mian,

I couldn't help but LOL.

[.. so, stop acting like a cowardly bania and help us! please..]

Help you for what? They'll say that you brew in your own stew.

Re: # 213

tahmed mian,

... there is an advantage to being a lota .... when the taliban take over - which should be soon - i will simply grow a beard, start shaving my pubic hair, hike up my shalwar, trade in my tooth brush for a twig from the kiker tree, get someone to hit me between the forehead with a two by four to get an instant mark of the devil, bruise my ankles, buy a tasbeeh, stop taking a shower so that i can smell like a sheep, take a sheep for a special friend and i will be just fine ............ you, my friend, on the other hand will be tied to a post and whipped across your buttocks and then taken down and beheaded .......

baitullah mehsud zindabad !

roses are red
violets are blue
you continue to support the jihadis
who are now killing you..


April 6, 2009
In Pakistan, 3 Suicide Attacks in 24 Hours
By JANE PERLEZ and PIR ZUBAIR SHAH

ISLAMABAD — A suicide bomber blew himself up at the entrance to a crowded Shiite mosque just south of the capital on Sunday, killing at least 26 people. It was the third suicide attack in Pakistan in 24 hours, in a sign that the Pakistani Taliban are overwhelming the nation’s security forces.

The assault south of the capital, Islamabad, appeared to be carefully crafted. It took place in Chakwal, a town that historically has had strong ties to the Pakistani Army, and in a Shiite mosque, which have come under increasing attack by the Pakistani Taliban.

The bombing occurred about 12 hours after a suicide bomber struck in an upper-class neighborhood of Islamabad on Saturday night, killing eight paramilitary security officers assigned to guard foreign diplomats and well-to-do residents. On Saturday morning, a suicide bomber drove his vehicle into a group of civilians on the side of the road in Miram Shah, in North Waziristan, killing at least eight people, including schoolchildren.

In a telephone interview on Sunday, Hakimullah Mehsud, a powerful deputy to Baitullah Mehsud, the leader of the Pakistani Taliban, said the Taliban were responsible for the suicide attacks in Islamabad and Chakwal.

He said the Islamabad bombing was in retaliation for an attack against him by an American pilotless aircraft, known as a drone, on April 1 in Orakzai, southwest of Peshawar in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. The attack killed at least 10 people, intelligence officials said.

Anyway...like this madani guy says...have a g'night...sleep tight.

#222 Posted by devrandom on April 5, 2009 10:24:56 am

dude..get with the program...the real cause is kashmir...pakis are killing pakis because of kashmir...india's occupation of kashmir made the paki security establishment create the islamic jihadis who're now killing a bunch of pakis..

all we need is for india to hand over indian kashmir to the pakis on a platter and the jihadis will stop blowing up people and line up for auditions on paki idol..

Interesting they haven't found any concrete evidence yet...like the attackers were saying "JULUM" instead of "ZULM"....hahahahaha, where are our chowk experts when we need them...HAHAHAHA Harhar har har

And when these jihadis will have all pakis pulverized to smithreens, they will go after amricans, then yahoods, then europeans, and after that (maybe after that), but maybe before europeans)they will go get us, and then kashmir banega pakistan.. but wait, there is something wrong here, am I too drunk....hahaha hahaha

I strongly believe that this terrorists can be suffocated, demoralized and defeated if there is a strong enough push from the ISI and Pak Army. There's no need for thousands more of troops from US or NATO or any one else. All it needs is a principled stand from the ISI and Pak army to sever all contacts and isolate the terrorist in terms of resources (arms, ammunition etc.) and intelligence. It is essentially an internal (law and order) problem of Pakistan that it can resolve, provided its most powerful organizations have the resolve.

Though Pak Army/ISI probably do not control every last terrorist leader, I strongly suspect they control enough of them to make a significant difference if they want to stem the rot. I believe these entities are just trying to retake the government from civilian leadership, show the 'donors' their real might and are just letting things get so bad that people would beg them to take control.

Today's Pakistan is a result of what happens when you have a few decades of extremely selfish and corrupt leadership at the very top that survives by pitting one group against the other and by magnifying perceptions of external threats to rein in their own people. Its worst problems can also mitigated quickly if there happen to be just 2-3 guys at the top who really feel for their country and want the average guy to have a normal life (screw extreme selfishness, screw the ideology, screw the religious crap, screw the ambitions on annexing more land and screw the imaginary threats from their western neighbor).

Btw, I know that India too has its share of these dangerous myopic 'leaders', but luckily none of them got to the very top (lots of absolutely horrible leaders exist at state levels as we speak). Also, its relative stability over the last 60 years has helped nurture a sense of 'things will be okay eventually' mindset that a 'critical mass' of people didn't fall for these psychopathic leaders. Hopefully they never will.

And anyway, this thing is going to be routine affair now, so the best thing we Indians can do is build a monument to Jinnah saheb and do phool-mala-aarti twice a day..Om shri jinnay namah....we are all thankful to him

Re: # 218 Laddu bhai, kyon apna munh kharaab kar rahe ho aur apna waqt be jayaa kar rahe ho?

(I write a few posts only when I am a li'l tipsy, what about you?)

Suicide Bomber Kills 22 in Pakistani Shiite Mosque

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/04/05/world/AP-AS-Pakistan.html?h p

No muslim could have performed such a deed. The "foreign hand" is clear. Also never condemn freedom fighters before understanding the root cause. Until the root cause is satisfied, no progress can be made.

To understand who is behind this, we should think of who gains? Only india and USA. And, of course, the joos, even though they are absent from the subcontinent. Attack india and teach the horrible kafirs a lesson, quick, this is the opening we have been opening for 61 years! What is this army for, anyway?

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17 killed in Chakwal suicide attack

Sunday, 05 Apr, 2009 | 12:44 PM PST |

ISLAMABAD: A bomb exploded in a religious centre for minority Shia Muslims in Chakwal 100km from the Federal capital on Sunday, killing 17 people and wounding around a 100, police said.

‘According to information received so far at least 17 people have died and some 100 were injured in the suicide attack,’ Provincial Law Minister Rana Sanaullah told AFP

‘The bomber was intercepted at the entrance otherwise he could have caused large scale casualties,’ Sanaullah said.

‘We have sent two helicopters to move the injured to hospitals in Islamabad,’ he added.

Blast victims are being taken to the local DHQ Hospital in Chakwal.

Police said some 1,200 people were attending the religious gathering when the attack occurred.

‘Our policemen deployed at the gate tried to stop the attacker from going inside where some 1,200 people were attending a majlis,’ senior police official Chaudhry Zulfiqar told AFP.

According to an eye witness’ account, Adeel Raza, a young man about 16-17 years old, dressed in black, got out of a car and detonated his explosives at the entrance of the Imambargah.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani strongly condemned the attack and has ordered an immediate inquiry.

The Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) Director has deployed his team at the site of the attack and is expecting a report by this evening.

The blast came a day after eight paramilitary soldiers were killed in a suicide attack in the capital, Islamabad.

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bulleya #197: you missed my point. i said you were a beghairat - pakistanis murdered and swatis brutalized by these animals mean nothing to you.

so dont write these long essays apeing lota hamidm's style. you and your kind remain beghairats.

lota hamidm: that martial gora-like talk should teach this cowardly hindu!!

sheikh rashid's security deposit Zindabad!!

Re: # 211

Abey hamidm - stop yapping all the time... think.

what's point of 100K more troops in afaganland - what are they going to do there - shoot at the boulders and goats?... afganland is not the source of the terror - pakiland is... more precisely - the GHQ in rawalbhindi, or whatever you call that place....

you don't need no troops - just a couple of daisy cutter over rawalbhindi is what is required... you wipe out pakiland generals, all will be fine...

Re: # 207

nkg,

.... you guys are all talk and no show! ..... no wonder you have been ruled by outsiders for thousands of years ......

...... lala ji, if you don't step up to the plate and send your troops to afghanistan nobody else will ...... now that we have the bleeding heart sissy liberals running america with an afirmative action president, america does not have the stomach to stand up to the barbarians knocking at the gates ...... the europeans, led by a gay purse carrying frenchman, are more interested in climate control and saving the musk rat than fighting crazed moslems in far off places ......... they are the same people who thought hitler was kidding when he invaded poland after they had given him half of czechoslovakia ............ contrary to what bewakoof bulleya says, swat is pakistan's sudetenland ............

..... so, stop acting like a cowardly bania and help us! please......... you can do it if you start eating meat once a weeek ......

What amuses me is that in order to tackle the problem of religious violence Pakistanis start quoting scriptures....


when it is a problem that can be tackled OUTSIDE Islam....

either through humanism or secularism.......

Re: # 208

NKG,

Most of the Indian Muslims are not alike Pakistani muslims and have no use for violent Jehad . They may pay lip service to ummah thing in order to look muslim, but are more interested in keeping their indianness instead of arabic identity.........

Re: # 206
laddu....
there are enough psssive vermins living inside India...I don't think, external threat is that much dangerous....Mind that, India is still a 3rd world country...

hamid...
I don't see any involvement of Indian armed forces in Afghanistan. That will be very stupid and even the BJP Govt. will not do that. In case, the 3rd front comes to power, they will definitely not do anything, which is like of assisting USA and NATO and creates animosity with musla leaders in India (including Deobandis)...India may face far more trouble from muslas living inside India than those are living outside....

...in any case, GoI have to wait for the approval from Iran...much of the activity from Indian side depends upon Iran's green signal...

Re: # 205

hamidm,

I would have thought about extending all help were it not your delusional thinking that the best way to get rid of these vermins is to push them across into India.........

now, if you stop thinking about pushing these vermins and talk about extending help to exterminate them inside Pakistan only we all all ears and willing to do all that is required..........

laddu, jayp, arjun and other horrible hindoos ......

............ i want you guys to put your money where your mouth is! ........ get your bania government to send a 100,000 troops to afghanistan to help exterminate the vermin that threaten the world ......... i would support the indian airforce carrying out targeted attacks on muridke, mansoora and other dens in pakistan but that wouold start a larger war with india which is counter productive ....... it is time for the civilized world (and horrible hindoos) to help us ....... if not, you will be fighting these barbarians in the streets of panipat and madras !

..... i am not ready to give up on on kashmir yet, but if you help us i am willing to consider it ...... omg! in the last twenty four hours they have struck chakwal and islamabad killing more than fifty people - that is too close to home! ........ don't listen to romair - he is a fool who will one day die of suffocation in a container trying to flee to iran like those poor fifty plus bas**ds who died in quetta yesterday ....

..... please help us instead of lecturing us ! ....... help!

Romair,

If, as you say, civil society & institutions are slowly getting stronger, now is the time for continuous marches. The situation looks extremely unstable.

Just from judging responses of Pakistani, those who live in Pakistan are just as divided. Even the generally optimistic Ejaz Haider has said "we are up sh*tcreek without a paddle!" He was so disgusted that he really didnt give a damn about swearing.

I'm wondering how long it will take us Indians to realize, that if Pakistan falls, there will be a war & the whole Indo-Gangetic plain will be a wasteland.

Re: # 202

So, you mean I should be shouting -

"Jehadi zindabad!!"

so, asking Pakistanis to hate Jehadis who are killing Shias is "hate mantra"??

Wow!!!

Re: # 201
"Come on Pakis repeat with me.......Jehadi-kuttey hai hai!!!"

Legitimate struggle (JIHAD) is prescribed in the Qur'an and was practised by all of God's prophets, why are you afraid Laddu?

Sons of female dogs needn't be feared though.

Don't ask people to repeat your hate mantra.

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I am not a fan of AH but if MQM has stood up and spoken against the Taliban and resolves to fight them, my vote is with him. Just came back from outside and the city is dotted with black flags and banners condemning the flogging in Swat. And you are right about Police Training Centre, Saeedabad: one can actually see into the compound from the streets. And half the police is out there to escort/guard the bloody VIPs. If any suicide monkey decides to wreak havoc in Karachi it will be one hell of a disaster though I don't see Talibanisation yet taking roots in the sense that people have no sympathy for these goons. The educated, multi-ethnic, money-based social strata of Karachi also ensures that we would not accept any brand of Shariah in the city.

Jehadi-kuttey and their handlers should go to hell!!

Vaitarani (river of Hell) for these Jehadi-kuttas who kill innocent people........

and the worst form of Jahannum for those who donate and financially support these Jehadi-kuttas and their organizations.......

Death to those who spuport these Jehadi-kuttas!!:@:@:@:@

Interesting article from the Washington Post, on the legacy of the first Afghan war: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5339-2002Mar22?language=printer

Fro m U.S., the ABC's of Jihad
Violent Soviet-Era Textbooks Complicate Afghan Education Efforts

By Joe Stephens and David B. Ottaway
Washington Post Staff Writers
Saturday, March 23, 2002; Page A01

In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.

The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.

...What seemed like a good idea in the context of the Cold War is being criticized by humanitarian workers as a crude tool that steeped a generation in violence.

.....Published in the dominant Afghan languages of Dari and Pashtu, the textbooks were developed in the early 1980s under an AID grant to the University of Nebraska-Omaha and its Center for Afghanistan Studies. The agency spent $51 million on the university's education programs in Afghanistan from 1984 to 1994.

..... Children were taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles and land mines, agency officials said. They acknowledged that at the time it also suited U.S. interests to stoke hatred of foreign invaders.

"I think we were perfectly happy to see these books trashing the Soviet Union," said Chris Brown, head of book revision for AID's Central Asia Task Force.

AID dropped funding of Afghan programs in 1994. But the textbooks continued to circulate in various versions, even after the Taliban seized power in 1996.

Officials said private humanitarian groups paid for continued reprintings during the Taliban years. Today, the books remain widely available in schools and shops, to the chagrin of international aid workers.

"The pictures [in] the texts are horrendous to school students, but the texts are even much worse," said Ahmad Fahim Hakim, an Afghan educator who is a program coordinator for Cooperation for Peace and Unity, a Pakistan-based nonprofit.

An aid worker in the region reviewed an unrevised 100-page book and counted 43 pages containing violent images or passages.

The military content was included to "stimulate resistance against invasion," explained Yaquib Roshan of Nebraska's Afghanistan center. "Even in January, the books were absolutely the same . . . pictures of bullets and Kalashnikovs and you name it." ......

Above the soldier is a verse from the Koran. Below is a Pashtu tribute to the mujaheddin, who are described as obedient to Allah. Such men will sacrifice their wealth and life itself to impose Islamic law on the government, the text says....."

tahmad #: "have a few choice words for the babus on Geo News commentators who ignore the fact that these drone attacks are taking out these animals."

...there is a resolution, a unanimous one, of the pakistan national assembly, against the drone attacks.......

....even the elected govt. of ppp - which is considered a strong us ally - and whose president is considered as much a usa man as musharraf, is unwilling to own the drone attacks......

......who exactly is this aryanna institute?.....a survey of an unknown institute, vs. a resolution of the complete elected body of the whole country.....

.....if there needs to be drone attacks anywhere, they should be done on pakistan's own terms, by the pakistan air force or army.......not by the usa.......

......these drone attacks kill a lot of innocent people also......there was one that killed 83 or so students......another attack killed a group of army soldiers........would be interested in your views on that......

.......a ttp leader just said recently, he will target islamabad, if drone attacks occur........a drone occurred yesterday, and, immediately, a suicide bombing in islamabad's central market (not to mention the one in miranshah)......

this maybe the kind of pakistan expats want, but i don't think this is what pakistanis living in pakistan want......drone attacks by the usa one day and suicide attacks by the ttp, the next......both entities hated by normal pakistanis, yet both killing pakistanis......


had there been 160 suicide attack in washington dc, i am sure the us voters would have put pressure on the govt. and the america would have been out of this gwot a long time ago......

the drone attacks will continue, as long as pakistan doesn't take action, the subsequent suicide bombings will continue, as will the related rise of ttp........and it will go on forever.......as there is no logical end in sight of this war.....and it will all continue to spill into pakistan.......

if these suicide attacks get worse, isb and lhr will empty out......all the professionals holding up paksitan's economy will migrate out.....after that, no amount of drone attacks will solve anything........

#195 Posted by bulleya on April 4, 2009 9:32:53 pm


tell the usa to stop drone attacks, and shoot them down if needed


yeah...go ahead...why dontcha?

fuzair #: "Very interesting survey: seems as if Pathans in FATA approve of the drone attacks and want the TTP out."

...one need not carry out a survey to figure out that people don't want ttp.....it is quite obvious they don't....take a look at the last election results in the region.....nwfp and sind, invariably, elect the most secular parties - ppp and anp in nwfp and ppp and mqm in sind......

......the only exception was musharraf's election......when mma won......

......this point isn't even debatable, that religious parties don't have electable power in pakistan......a party like the bjp could never be mainstream in pakistan........

ttp isn't even a normal religious party like mma.....infact it isn't even a party......it is a small movement to fight americans in afghanistan, which has spilled over in pakistan.......they could not win an election.......

however, they have one weapon, which is unbeatable....and that is the suicide bomber.......they, apparently, have an army of them....this is something no other political party has......

.......obviously the people in fata want the ttp out......and they want the writ of the govt. of pakistan to be established......as do the people of swat......but it will be impossible to do so, if pakistan is trying to support the usa's gwot and fighting the ttp at the same time......

.......as long as there are even 48% people who oppose drone attacks and as long as there are a fraction who are getting killed by them, organizations like the ttp will have a strong supply of militants and suicide bombers available to them......and there will be at least x% of pakistanis who will support their cause......

.......i don't think the ttp is more than 25,000 people.....barely enough to win one assembly seat.....but they are violent enough to create havoc......

........pakistan civil society has to take them on......however, i don't see how this can be done, if pakistan's actions against them are seen in alliance with the usa's action.......there are areas of the pakistan society, which hate the usa more than they hate ttp......

so what pakistan needs to do is to first: get out of gwot.......it is a lost cause......cut off all the logistical lines.......cut off all the bases......tell cia to get out of pakistan.....etc......tell the usa to stop drone attacks, and shoot them down if needed (if drones are needed then pakistan air force should launch them on its own terms; not usa)......

.....this will take away the oxygen on which ttp type organization survive.....i.e. hatred for the usa...after that, the ttp attacks in pakistan are bound to go down or disappear......and their support base will reduce......

at that time, any action by the ttp will be seen solely against pakistan......that is when pakistan will be able to isolate ttp......

otherwise, as long as it has even 10% support, it will survive.....what to talk of 48%.......

shankar #: "if he supported the US, the US would ensure that Pakistan becomes a very prosperous country. Musharraf made the right choice (both morally and politically), in my opinion.}}"

...i still think musharraf did the correct think....i am, totally, against the taliban.....i am, even more against what they did in afghanistan....and the fact that they were created by pakistan and imposed on afghanistan by pakistan, will always be one of the darkest moral chapters in the history of pakistan....

in a sense, one can say, pakistan is paying for its sins, now, of creating the taliban and imposing them on afghanistan.....

....i don't agree with the tactics the usa used in afghanisan.....i tink it could have gotten obl, without bombing a complete country into the stone age.....

i also don't support what pakistan has done since gwot started.....musharraf should have supported the usa upto a limit......he should have dumped the taliban, and should have allowed air space rights to the usa.......if the war was short, perhaps logistical rights......that is about it....

.....he should not have kept this going for seven years, when it was clear that usa did not know what it was doing.....and was losing the war......he should not have sent in the army like he did in fata, which was done around two years ago......he should not have picked up people and shipped them off to the usa, without a trial in pakistan.....

i still think the usa has done the correct thing in removing the taliban in afghanistan......i still think pakistan did the correct thing in dumping the taliban......what i don't agree with is what the usa (and pakistan) have done since.......

what to talk of supporting the usa action.......i supported musharraf, fully, when he carried out the coup......as did most of pakistan......

i supporte obama, today, fully, today.......if five years from now, he turns into hitler, then i will not support him......

Editorial from Daily times ( notoriously against generally against Altafbhai, admits only real decent and brave man is MQM chief all others are useless , good for nothing leaders.) woth reading.
"SECOND EDITORIAL: ...but will the citizens rise?

Karachi’s City Naib Nazim, Ms Nasreen Jalil, said Friday that “the people of Karachi have rejected all forms of extremism because they strongly believe in freedom and democracy and they will thwart any attempt to place the city under the control of the Taliban�. She was talking to some German diplomats who called on her and she must have surprised them with her resolve to fight a national threat that few are willing even to describe in realistic terms.

Ms Jalil further said: “The failure of the Taliban to capture the city as yet is due to MQM’s campaigns. The people of the city have always endorsed MQM’s standpoint against Talibanisation�. Before she spoke, the MQM leader Mr Altaf Hussain had addressed the people of Karachi and told them that his party would fight the Taliban as they converge on Karachi as per the threat issued by their leader Baitullah Mehsud. Unfortunately, the PPP in Karachi is not greatly convinced of the threat, or it simply can’t be seen to agree with the MQM.

But the Karachi police say the Taliban are already in Karachi and making life miserable for them because the size of the city police is half what it should be and those on duty are poorly paid and poorly equipped. The Rangers remain standoffish and the army says it has to be ready for the Indians when they attack on the border. If the police is not good enough and scared of being caught like sitting ducks in their unprotected training centres — Karachi training centres are without walls — then who will fight the terrorists and their suicide-bombers?

It develops that the MQM is the only entity in national politics capable of fighting the terrorists after the state has given up. The charges against the MQM include past incidents of terrorism, the latest being the May 12, 2007 firing during a lawyers’ rally in Karachi last year. Despite efforts to “normalise� its ethnic identity by going “national� the MQM is looked upon as a shadowy organisation allegedly living on protection money or “bhatta�. But relative to who else is doing what in Karachi, the MQM has the people’s vote and deploys a modern political strategy. Its willingness to fight the Taliban when the state is unable or unwilling or a bit of both, gives it the honour of leading a citizens’ resistance to terrorism when others are simply complaining." *
All truth though is bitter for MQM haters.

hamidm mian #: ".... are you sure? ..... check your history ... sufi mohammad and the sharia nonsense in malakand has been around for a long time.... you will only understand this when they whip your butt and make you squeal like that poor girl on tv ......."

....all this nonsense has been in these areas for centuries......it didn't just arrive.....however, it has never been able to consolidate, itself.....and it never attacked mainland pakistan....it will be there forever.....

it became stronger when pakistan became a frontline state in the first afghan war......after this second afghan war, it has turned into a suicide bomb machine, which is targeting all of pakistan.....this is a two year old phenomenon, and is a result of gwot......

the chance of someone getting blown up by a suicide bomb in islamabad, is far higher than being whipped....there is whipping going on in guantanomo also, and in isi's safehouses.....just like you support whippings in guantanomor, urstrulies of the world support whippings in swat.....

pakistan will never be able to tackle this problem, if it is seen to be fighting it in an alliance with the usa....ttp is hated in pakistan, but the usa is hated even more.....

why are you so against pakistan, disengaging from gwot and then tackling this problem on its own terms......once pakistan disengages from gwot, that is when civil society will truly come out against these elements, and that is when their actions will be viewed as specifically anti-pakistan......

i can well understand that your position in the usa may weaken, if pakistan is no longer a usa ally......but i think if americans want to fight wars, they should do so themselves......pakistanis should worry about pakistan.....

By the way these mullahs and the American elite are closer in their dirty thinking than you might imagine even though one side has no shoes and the other owns the world, right now the US media is similarly dismissing anyone challenging the official renditions of BS as "conspiracy". I would like for this moron to explain to me how tens of thousands of people cross borders of countries with impunity popping up here and there upon US expediency, why a few thousand of them compared to the much larger insurgency (as in Iraq) are given dominance and how symbolically they are annihilated from the same area when US desires shift to another area? He must think we are all damn fools....

TNITC masadi

Urstruly: moron, it collapsed for the same reason that your thugs are going to collapse, it had no chance playing the US game...Your friends will do much better if they arrange for the Bata shoe company to provide them free flip flops rather than pretend to be Captian Kirk.....and get a goddamned education. When the ROOS "collapsed" I didn't even have a bachelor's degree you moron....

TNITC masadi

fuzair #167 interesting analysis. and yet - I bet the pathans who have seen the evil actions of the taliban first hand would have a few choice words for the babus on Geo News commentators who ignore the fact that these drone attacks are taking out these animals.

US, Pakistan launch joint operation against Mehsud

Sunday, April 05, 2009
LONDON: The US and Pakistani authorities have launched a joint operation to kill the head of the Pakistani Taliban, Baitullah Mehsud, according to the Daily Telegraph.

A Pakistani intelligence official told the newspaper that Washington had agreed to target Mehsud after months of persuasion by Islamabad’s military leadership.

Pakistan will pass on intelligence about Mehsud’s movements with the aim of guiding a missile attack from an American drone. The intelligence official said that Pakistan had twice given America intelligence about Baitullah Mehsud’s whereabouts so that he could be targeted.

///////////////////

while the paki military complains in public about the drone attacks, this is what they are doing in reality.

cRY PAKIS..CRY

Re: # 186

Ok, I accept your thesis that since you can spell the word socil-struxture correctly, you are scholar and educated while I can't therefore I am a moron. But could you opine scholarly as to why did roos failed and collapsed while it had such gem as yourself i.e. social-structuralism-causists at her service and payroll?

Oh! right, that thing, the capitalist-androids-vulcans conspiracy; lenon, stalin, breznev all amerikan agents - never mind.

#185 you moron, have you ever bothered to study criminology? It is not as simple as 'policemen stopping crime'. Have you ever bothered to study the administrative structure of the medical establishment and how various non-diseases have been medicalized just to enhance their nuisance value and for social control? For your kind of halwa khors you knowledge goes only surface deep, for those that bother to find out they see these things not as conspiracy but as institutionalized processes. For you the entire global war on terrorism, much like US propaganda is a cops and robbers scenario though the sides are flipped, for those that go deeper it has socio-structural causes that go much deeper than your naara baazi.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 184

Yes and policemen don't stop crimes because it will put them out their jobs - no crimes no job. Doctors don't cure diseases because it will put them out of their jobs too - no disease no jobs. Everything is a big conspiracy against you marhooma roos k pimps ke liyay.

Urstruly:"...conspiracy theory that Ameicans are doing aggresion against other countries and suppoting resistence against themslves as well. "

It is not a conspiracy theory you moron, it is fully embedded in the socio-cultural-structure of a US dominated world. Your so-called resistance is no resistance, people wouldn't know about your halwa khors were it not for the Western monopolized media to give it coverage and if you think that the US will mind giving you all a few million worth of fire crackers to resist from changing a multiple trillion dollar economic structure, not to mention the viability of the capitalist system then you must be a damn fool. They created the war, they created a resistance, by their media coverage the gave ownership of the resistance to those that would best fit in with their long term goals and those so-called resistors are playing the US game and destroying as a result a lot more than what their moronic naara baazi would have done without US support both explicit and implicit....

TNITC masadi

TNITC masadi

The 3000 odd "Arab Afghans" that formed the so-called Al-Qaeda amounted to nothing in the soviet/afghan war, they weren't considered sh** by the Mujahideen either, were it not for the US handing them ownership of the war and major enemy status post 9.11, they and Osama would have amounted to minor nuisance at best. Their 'privitized' capitalist "Jihad" moving men and materials with CIA support like migratory workers in the World System merely shows us how fully imbedded in the US militaristic political economy they are. Mullahs don't understand this simply because their world view is naara baazi, halwa khori and sexualization of all morality. God damn their souls as well.

TNITC masadi

Mr bulleya is wasting his time arguing with tahmed regarding the barbaric GWOT. You can squeeze more humanitarian morals out of a slug than you can out of tahmed....Even after a million have been butchered and two million displaced and the rest made food and water and life insecure in Iraq, he still claims that democracy has been brought to it and it is a Japan-esque beacon of light for the ME. May God damn his kind of "people" who sell humanity for a chance to live in the US.

TNITC masadi

a corporal clueless if you will

Damn ! you are nasty dude ;D

Re: # 176

What do you want it to be?

:)

do not see AQ as anything but an ideological movement that would have swept across mUslim world anyway whether 9/11 happened or not.

----
Urstruly,
Yeah which was the last organization created by the CIA that fought against the US. May be alqeeda is the first one. But still its attempt is to confine the war to Pakistan and Afghanistan, which suits the US well.

Let us assume that the Alqaeeda is an idealogical movement and would have swept all the arab world of its feets within days magically, under what circumstances it would have done so in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India(indian muslims), Indonesia and Malaysia?

An idealogical movement needs local cultural and social network to gain political power. The Alqaeeda has no such connection with the majority of Muslims who happened to be nonarab.

Alqaeeda may have a genuine gripe against the US and it may not be a US puppet anymore but its all goals are Arab centric or more specifically Saudi Arab centric with control of Oil and the promotion of the Arab Islamic nationalism.

Why we in Pakistan not accept the reality that it is fighting a war for the benefit of the arabs and especially the Arabs in Saudi Arabia?

How OBL can compete with Nawaz or the Indonesian president and beat them politically based on his total commitment to the arab cause alone?

You need to ask these questions yourself and see what answers you come up with. Just being anti US and supporting a supposedly anti US organization would not serve Pakistani cause. It was okay to oppose the US in Vietnam and it is okay to oppose the US in Afghanistan or Pakistan but to support an arab based organization whose goals are confined to the Arab political and economic demands is just plain stupidity. We accept that some uneducated Pathan might have been taken in by the Islamic naara baazi but there is no reason to accept that people who can think would support alqaeeda just because they oppose the US.
Will pick up this debate later got to take a little nap now.

Househusband "haha the nuclear deal won't go through" Paki is sort of a capt clueless Jr...a corporal clueless if you will...

Re: # 172

The corrupt pro=western ruling elite in Arab lands is paying rogue countries like Pakistan, britain, and Us to keep those who challenge their thrones, in Afghanistan. pakistan is handsomely paid by saudi arabia just for that. Before 9/11 Arabs especially SA were paying Talibans just to keep Arab resistence in their country.

The ordinary Arabs with political, nationalist or religious ambitions are paying AQ to trap the colonial power Amerika that supports the corrut vicious regimes in their lands - they want it weakened or destroyed.

On the other hand US alnoe spends over 150 billion dollars in security and war to keep its oppresive terrorit policies going. Similarly, europeans, japanese, and austrialians add billions to address the fist ever challeneg to their 500 yaers of monopoly on violence. If you say, despite all this that, it is a fraud ctreated by amrika, then one can only wring his hands and walk away. There is nothing left to argue.

I do not see AQ as anything but an ideological movement that would have swept across mUslim world anyway whether 9/11 happened or not.

#175

Is this a comment or a display of typical Indian stupidity?

Re: # 174
and that is why we see so many posts w/o any substance against him

Paki ... atta boy :)

I have not read Romair's posts(they are boring) but I am sure he sent a big mirchi up in someone's orifice and that is why we see so many posts w/o any substance against him.

Arjun, is Romair the topic of your MS dissertation?

After so much carnage and destruction and genocide across Pak, Afghan and Iraq please let go of this conspiracy theory that Ameicans are doing aggresion against other countries and suppoting resistence against themslves as well.

---
Urstruly,
what resistance? I am talking abt the Alqaeeda and the US unified in one objective and that is to keep the war outside of the middle east. Even tho they are fighting each other. Why can't you accept that the Alqaeeda is basically Arabs and a fighting for the Arab cause and being financed by their Arab sponsors. What interests they have in fighting for Pakistan?

remember how capt clueless was against pakiland's "voluntary" participation in the WoT..

oh..wait..he was for it before he was against it...just like he was for musharraf before he was against him...just like he was against nawaz...well..you get the picture...

#18 Posted by Romair on September 16, 2001 5:35:46 pm


I think the people who support democracy in Pakistan will be in a dilemma soon. I have heard that 42 political parties in Pakistan are issuing a statement that, while they condemn the WTC attack, they do not want Pakistan to allow the use of its ground and airspace. Being a supporter of democracy in Pakistan, would you support their decision? I would oppose it (assuming certain US gaurantees), but I have always supported the current govt., even though it is undemocratic.

Hasho

That's is what I would have thought except that it is Pakistani; based in Islamabad; punch of Pakistani Pathans, not Afghans, running it.

Re: # 166

After so much carnage and destruction and genocide across Pak, Afghan and Iraq please let go of this conspiracy theory that Ameicans are doing aggresion against other countries and suppoting resistence against themslves as well. Amrikans are not gods ok. Pakistan is facing the the most dire challenge in the 60 years of its existence; when titanic sinks the froth and dirt is also swallowed into the whirlpool. This disaster has been caused by the corruption of our leaders and corruption of us as a nation. We have been sustaining ourselves and feeding our children the blood of our fellow citizens for years now. Every time we get our payment of blood money from amrika and IMF we celebrate as if the whole nation has won a Noble prize. The Laws of Nature on the other hand are discrete and they act indiscriminately. Nature abhors, corrupt, weak, and malignant. A time has come that Pakistani nation will pay through its ass.

Aryana Institute

---
The name itself suggests it has something to do with many Afghanistan based NGOs.

Very interesting survey: seems as if Pathans in FATA approve of the drone attacks and want the TTP out.

=============
Survey Results:
-- Do you see drone attacks bringing about fear and terror in the common people? (Yes 45%, No 55%)

-- Do you think the drones are accurate in their strikes? (Yes 52%, No 48%)

-- Do you think anti-American feelings in the area increased due to drone attacks recently? (Yes 42%, No 58%)

-- Should Pakistan military carry out targeted strikes at the militant organisations? (Yes 70%, No 30%)

-- Do the militant organisations get damaged due to drone attacks? (Yes 60%, No 40%)

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=165781

++++++++++++++++ +

Anyone know anything about this Aryana Institute that carried out this survey? How legit is it?

That is the reason the war is being escalated through indiscriminate masacres of pakistani women and children through drones and smart missiles. Their media has already working double shift pouring venom into the minds of their people.
---
Urstruly,
Why are you shy of adding the Pakistan taliban or the sponsors of the suicide bombers who seem to be acting on the cue to create as much mayhem as possible to hasten the war you are talking about?

"Al Qaida is detremined to keep imperial america trapped in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Obviously, no enemy in their position would want to give a breathing space to its enemy when enemy is down and its economic backbone has been broken."

Very well so both the alqaeeda and US have the same goal and that is keep the fight in Pakistan and not let it spread to the other parts of the Middle East where Oil is needed by the arab Alqaeeda owners to make money and the US industries to make money to pay for the alqaeeda sponsors in the ME.

The Pakistan Islamists are so ch*** that they are helping both parties who would rather fight in Afghanistan or Pakistan than in the ME, where the true reasons of the war are located.

"another strategy would be to start with their whiskey-drinking kashmir-obsessed masters but they seem to be immune from the consequences of their actions"

Kashmir is a legitimate issue between India and Pakistan bad handling by the army Generals does not mean that the Kashmir issue is sacrificed at the alter.

Saying things that make some idiot Indians on this site happy, will never make you popular.

The issue in Pakistan is army's illegitimate grab of power not the Kashmir, if there was no Kashmir they would have invented somethings else. Kashmir issue was not created by the Army and both Pakistani and Indian civilian governments had plenty of time to deal with it before the army started using it.

The line of attack abt Whiskey drinking is right out of the JI literature. There is nothing wrong in Whiskey drinking and non-drinking Generals are/were as guilty as the drinking ones.

The Taliban problem has nothing to do with Kashmir however, if an issue persists for a long period of time many onlookers and sidelined groups make cause with it too.

There are no temporary fixes out there. It is all about perseverance and chipping away.

America desperately needs a war.

It is just a matter of weeks that what is happening in Europe as a fall out from the economic disaters that Americans have caused, will pretty soon be happening in North America as well. In Germany, England, France and several other countries 100s of thousands of people have started marching against the policies of their governments. Americans are not used to have protest marches. Last time there was a march in US was in 1963 when they killed both Malcolm X and Dr. King to stop the rebellion. People in Noth America usually protest by taking their high powered assault rifles into the shopping malls, cultural centers, schools and universities and kill as many as possible of their fellow citizens before shooting themselves.

America's corrupt ruling elite and powers that be desperately need a war for diverting its peoples attention from hunger, disease, joblessness and homelessness that are striding towards them every moment that goes by. What is a better enemy than the "nuclear failed state" pakistan. That is the reason the war is being escalated through indiscriminate masacres of pakistani women and children through drones and smart missiles. Their media has already working double shift pouring venom into the minds of their people.

On the other hand Al Qaida is detremined to keep imperial america trapped in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Obviously, no enemy in their position would want to give a breathing space to its enemy when enemy is down and its economic backbone has been broken.

The only chance that corrupt ruling elite and haramkhor fouj in Pakistan has is to make ammends with Talibans and hasten the evacuation of crusaders from Afghanistan. Pakistan must offer a startegy to USA for an "honorable" exit. Americans will cut and run, no doubt - all empires have done so in the past when they were close to the collapse so this is not going to be any different. This is the Divine Law. Americans must relinquish their criminal attitude towards rest of the world, especially third world so that huamnity could live in peace and in one piece.

ALLAH's LAW of RISE & FALL OF NATIONS

He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way. . They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Job 12:23 & Isiah 40:15

Allah o Akbar

Romair miaN is a good man who always uses polite discourse and it is ridiculous to ridicule him simply because some of his past guesses did not hit their marks.

Suicide attack in Pakistani agency kills over 20
Military and Security 4/4/2009 2:04:00 PM

ISLAMABAD, April 4 (KUNA) -- More than twenty people including at least two security personnel were killed in a bloody suicide attack Saturday in a Pakistani trial agency, bordering Afghanistan, said sources.
A suicide bomber rammed his vehicle into a military convoy heading towards Miramshah, the main town of North Waziristan tribal agency, from Bannu town, security sources told KUNA.
They said the attack killed more than twenty people including at least five children and two security personnel.

drones whack pakis
pakis whack pakis

lather, rinse repeat...oh..and virgins

30 killed in US drone attack, suicide bombing in Pakistan

Islamabad (PTI): At least 30 people were killed on Saturday in Pakistan's North Waziristan tribal region where a suicide bomber targeted a police convoy, hours after a US missile strike levelled a militant hideout in the same area.

A US drone fired three missiles at the home of a tribesman in a village located 40 kms from the headquarters of North Waziristan tribal agency, killing 13 people, including women and children, local residents said.

eleventy one: HamidM pai does not want to get whipped himself - hence the pass to the whiskey drinking masters. :) If anything, Jihadis have casrificed more for Pakistan than the Pakistani Fauj. What has the Pakistani Fauj done? Surrendered to India, made money off of arms purchases, acted as contracters and rain inspectors in cities and taken parcels of prime land. At the same time it is the Jihadis who fought and died for the furtherance of Pakistani aims and objectives. The Jehadis are our enemy but at least we see them as an enemy. The leechads of Pak Fauj are not even worth being called enemies. Instead of uniting with these Leechads, the Hindus should encourage true Muslims to take over Pakistan and hand them over Kashmir as a goodwill gesture.

"...... you don't defeat them, you kill them all and send them packing to fornicate with virgins in their jihadi nheaven ......... the are not that many"

another strategy would be to start with their whiskey-drinking kashmir-obsessed masters but they seem to be immune from the consequences of their actions

Re: # 157

hamidm2

John Solecki has been released by the BLA, intact.

Re: # 126

urstruly,

"Their dedication to their cause and their yearning to die for it was just another thing but what impressed me most ............ How can one defeat such people? "

...... you don't defeat them, you kill them all and send them packing to fornicate with virgins in their jihadi nheaven ......... the are not that many

bewakoof bulleya,

"what i am saying is that all the ttp would not have been created, had pakistan not jumped into gwot"

.... are you sure? ..... check your history ... sufi mohammad and the sharia nonsense in malakand has been around for a long time - an army friend laid of mine caught a bullet in his shoulder during the malakand campaign in the seventies ......... it is just that these islamists from all over the world are now converging to make a concentrated push to impose what mo of mecca started fifteen hundred years ago ...... the civilized world (and the horrible hindoos) must unite to exterminate these barbarians ..........now! .......

.... you will only understand this when they whip your butt and make you squeal like that poor girl on tv .......

Re: # 126

"...Their eyes were always lowered to the ground or away from her. How can one defeat such people?..."

Not difficult. These people would not even know when their masters were changed or changed their loyalty. Written history is a testimony. Their eyes are looking at where their heads are burried. If you do not believe, read history, including Islamic, and that of peoples who now form Pakistan - keep it balanced for your consumption, India too.

Ignorance never wins. I mean never.

#153 Posted by shankar on April 4, 2009 10:02:09 am

I can't believe anyone takes him seriously..

#54 Posted by Romair on September 17, 2001 10:30:11 am

I can`t imagine Bush driving on the wrong side of the Islamabad highway, like Clinton did. Bush will stop at all red lights, and let the tongas cross.

Romair,

{{a friend in the Pakistani Foreign Service told me that Bush called Musharraf and emotionally told him if he opposed the US, Pakistan would turn into Afghanistan, and if he supported the US, the US would ensure that Pakistan becomes a very prosperous country. Musharraf made the right choice (both morally and politically), in my opinion.}}

Lol, thank you, arjun!

You've said a lot of things in the past, Nostradamus, that you'd better regret!:)

If you were the Pakistani interior minister then; you'd be a Bagdad bob...no..Isloo bull.

Taliban strategy is very clear. Their objective is to cripple the government enforcement machinery in order to bring it down. That is exactly the repeat of the three month camapaign against mushraf that brought him and his murdorous machinery down to its knees in mere three months. The current puppet regime that is imposed on Pakistan through a doctored election by that vicious dictator and his foreign masters consists only of crooks and some of the most notorius people in the history of pakistan. This house of card will crumble in a matter of weeks as well.

After elections people thought that government of pakistan will adopt a sovereign foreign and domestic policy but this "experimentation" has proved that merely having elections - and doctored at that - is not democeracy. People know that ghee seedhi unglion se nahin nikle ga. The corrupt, pro-western ruling elite is still not willing to relinquish its murderous ways.

bulleya: the lives of pakistanis killed by these animals obviously mean nothing to you. there is no excuse for the crimes committed by the taliban/alqaeda to date. only a beghairat can ignore the crimes committed by the taliban/alqaeda.

trouble with beghariati is - the attacker senses it, and goes for the kill. so - the beghairats NWFP and central government betrayed the swatis and replaced their elected reps with the taliban. So...the taliban/alqaeda simply launched attacks on the pakistani police chowkis in lahore, peshawar, islamabad within a period of a few days!!

Get the picture, captaan sahib??? beghairati only gets you a bigger danda.

Shaheed Sahab yaar!

Sorry, forgot the container. But apparently those guys were Afghans. We have become so desensitised to human carnage that many would suppose that them not being pakis would not put that much strain on our emotions. Some guys dead on our soil while being smuggled through it. Doesn't quite cut the same thing as with chaps bearing green passports, hayna?

????

This has to be among the worst 24 hours in the country. Bombs, drone atatcks, scandulous video footage, more suicidal attacks. And all that the federal govt is busy doing is eulogizing a dead guy. Don't nobody say that Pakistanis don't know their priorities.

#145 by bulleya

total suicide bombings in the history of pakistan, prior to gwot = 0

total suicide bombings in pakistan, since 2002 = 160

total suicide bombings in pakistan, in 2007, alone = 56

total suicide bombings in pakistan, in 2008 = 61

And moron, your prediction: the total number of suicide bombings in Isloo after the Swat deal = 0. But there's just been one. How are you going to spin that?

total suicide bombings in the history of pakistan, prior to gwot = 0

total suicide bombings in pakistan, since 2002 = 160

total suicide bombings in pakistan, in 2007, alone = 56

total suicide bombings in pakistan, in 2008 = 61

....one need not be a genius to figure out that these suicide bombings are not an organic affair, and are directly related to pakistan's involvement in gwot.....specifically, since it moved in its forces into fata......

people like imran khan, who are very familiar with that area, have been screaming for years for pakistan to change its policies......i am not sure what it will take to change.....

pakistan will never be able to defeat ttp etc. if it is seen to be fighting them, in an alliance with the usa....it needs to do so on its own terms......

suicide attack in Islamabad..6 FC men killed..

bulleya: so, i assume your point is "....it is counterproductive to get involved in usa's gwot". (Why do you have to write three pages I dont know - and I just picked this from the beginning of your post).

Please confirm that this is your point.

If you have some other point, please state that as well.

#122 by hamidm2

bewakoof bulleya

I think he actually is much more than that. Just last week he was marveling at how the Swat deal had put an end to all bomb blasts in Islamabad and Lahore. There was an attack in Lahore just last week and an hour or so ago, Isloo has been attacked.

This moron will now crawl back into his hole now and reemerge when none of us is around.

tahmad #: "please write plain english. what is the point you are trying to make?"

...the same point i was trying to make to you in iraq....

....it is counterproductive to get involved in usa's gwot....it is counterproductive to become the logistical supply for usa's gwot....it is counterproductive to engage one's armed forces as a frontline state in any war usa is fighting......

......no one in the usa is concerned about people dying in pakistan.....they are only concerned about saving their own soldiers.....

......swat situation, ttp, suicide bombings, the situation in islamabad are all alien to pakistan...they are not organic.....they are a reuslt of pakistan getting involved in this war in afghanistan......

.......to scream about ttp now, is ridiculous......when they rest of us were saying that this is what will happen, if pakistan doesn't leave gwot, people like you were cheering on all the military action......

spain had one explosion, and it left iraq......turkey would have been like pakistan is today, had it become the supply lines for usa's war in iraq....it refused......

........what is happening in pakistan is real life......people are dying in places which i visit regularly........

there is no way to stop suicide bombers.....other than getting out of such ridiculous wars.....these things have arrived in pakisan, from the outside.....they are not going to go away, regardless of how much military firepower pakistan uses.....one cannot check every single person, every single hour.....

.......the only way to stop it is to get out of usa's gwot in afghanistan.....and then try to clear away whatever mess has been created (ttp etc.) on pakistan's own terms, and in its own interests.....

these guys seem to have said, for every drone attack they will carry out a suicide attack in pakistan.......if you have any suggestions on how to stop such attacks, pls present them.......

otherwise pls stop being a mouthpiece for usa's policies in pakistan......you don't live in pakistan.....why are you bent upon turning it into a mess....

damn...capt clueless has hit it on the head..are these indians deluded or what??!!

#292 Posted by Romair on September 20, 2001 8:38:09 pm

This is the key to the whole US-Pakistani relationship. If the US takes some bold gestures towards Pakistan, it can get the Pakistanis on its side. People in Pakistan are not stupid (despite what most Indians seem to think :-)). They are logical and know what is in there interests. According to their logic, the US will use Pakistan due to which Pakistan will get some benefits, and then dump Pakistan due to which internal and external reprecussions will occur. The reprecussions will outweigh the benefits of helping the US. If the US can create a situation where the benefits are far higher than the reprecussions, then it will be able to get the Pakistani population behind it in the long term.

#95 by Catchy

The lesson from Lahore tragedy is that people sitting in Islamabad, Delhi, Tel-Aviv and Washignton need to learn some lessons from the Chaos created by them in mis-handling of Afghanistan, Kashmir, Iraq and Palestine issues.

Wow! So Catchy yaar, are you saying Islamabad is actually cooperating with India, Israel and the US to create chaos in Pakistan? No wonder the Taliban are furious and exploding bombs everywhere in the country like there's no tomorrow.

#388 Posted by Romair on September 23, 2001 11:13:57 am



Musharraf has killed four birds with one stone. 1) He has emerged on the worldwide stage as a good guy, and thus strengthened his own position and rule. 2) He has called the bluff of the extremist and not so extremist religious parties in Pakistan. 3) He has greatly strengthened Pakistan`s stance on Kashmir (even Senator Joseph ``the parrot`` Biden is keeping his mouth shut now). 4) He will getting a big economic deal for Pakistan. Following are some good news:

seriously...only kuldip nayyar types and newbies can take captain clueless seriously...

If you want context, all of bulleya/romair/capt clueless' posts are here

http://www.chowk.com/interacts/5131/1/0/a

#400 Posted by Romair on September 23, 2001 2:29:46 pm

Asif Naqshbandi #401: As someone who has followed the Kashmir issue more closely and personally than probably anyone on this site, I think I can safely state that Pakistan`s position is now stronger than it has ever been historically on the Kashmir issue. The chances of a Kashmir solution now are greater than they have ever been. India has never been in such a defensive position on this issue, as it is right now.

The US stance has always been to support the right of self-determination in Kashmir. The US is not going to do anything against Pakistan now. Nothing. Zero. This is a new phase of a long-term alliance, with Musharraf at the head. He is becoming a hero in the US media circles. His definition of differentiating between fighting terrorism and supporting freedom fights is now going to become the international standard, as he is one of the only people in the world whose govt. has actively participated in both. A friend of a friend in the Pakistani Foreign Service told me that Bush called Musharraf and emotionally told him if he opposed the US, Pakistan would turn into Afghanistan, and if he supported the US, the US would ensure that Pakistan becomes a very prosperous country. Musharraf made the right choice (both morally and politically), in my opinion.


I think Bush will force Vajpayee to change his decision on cancelling his visit to Pakistan. The extremist versions of the freedom fighters (who are a minority, by the way) will automatically come under control after the current unsuccessful protests in Pakistan. The US will then push for a UN based solution which will divide Kashmir into three parts, with an independent Valley (something the Kashmir Study Group (and I) have been suggesting for a while). I think Musharraf has plans to stay as President for the next ten years. The US will ensure that it assists him during that time, and I see an independent Valley within the next five to ten years.

For people who're relatively new to chowk, romair is bulleya aka capt clueless


#415 Posted by Romair on September 23, 2001 11:48:11 pm

Zahra #412: I had suggested before the interview that Benazir is now cornered. The whole world is now aware of her corruption. Her two trump cards of denouncing the military govt. and presenting herself as a, ``westernized`` alernative are down the drain, now also. She cannot criticize Musharraf as the US (and most Pakistanis) have now seems to have figured out that he is the right man to back.

#43 Posted by Romair on September 17, 2001 2:42:50 am
Haven`t sent emails to my old military buddies for a while, so I don`t know whether they will respond now. But I will attempt to see whether I can get any latest info on what is going on inside the military planning circles, if anyone at Chowk is interested.

I do know the PAF is on alert. I think the US C-141s are going to start rolling in soon. I have a feeling the Pakistani pilots and army will assist and guide the US into Afghanistan, if it decides to carry out an invasion (even though the Pakistani govt. won`t admit it openly). There is no way the US soldiers can carry it out on their own. They don`t have the intelligence, they don`t know the terrain, can`t speak the language. Infact, they can barely pronouce the names of the cities.

I`ve trained with the Pakistanis, with Middle Easterners and with Americans. I will take the Pakistani soldier over any other soldier anyday (any soldier except for an Afghan soldier, that is).

Man, this is getting interesting. Information Technology suc/ */s as a profession. No glory. I wanna go back and put on the uniform.

#44 Posted by Romair on September 17, 2001 2:42:50 am
IMPORTANT:

---------

Advice to all Pakistanis, Indians, Sri Lankans, Arabs and Muslims in general, in the USA: If you want to feel safe and not have anyone attack you on the street, wear a shirt with a Pakistani flag on it.


Advice to all Pakistanis in Pakistan: If you want to feel safe and not have anyone attack you on the street, wear a shirt with a ttp flag on it.

bulleya: please write plain english. what is the point you are trying to make?

Damned turncoat ex-pats think they own Pakistan just because they send some Dollars back home!

Keep at it for a few Dollars more....

tahmad #: "so you think the taliban are brutalizing the people of swat, murdering people all over pakistan, because pakistan maintains diplomatic relations with the US and has military ties with it?? you are like the abused spouse who claims the husband beats her every day because it is her fault."

its about time, people like you cut the crap....you made similar comments about iraq.....you have absolutely no idea about what is going on in pakistan......

take a look at what is happening in islamabad......people are planning to pack up and leave......there was a suicide bombing last week and one right now in jinnah market.....there is firing going on in jinnah market....

swat was a tourist resort three years or so ago.....islamabad was one of the most peaceful places in the world, prior to gwot.....even prior to pakistan, moving its forces into fata, a few years ago......

.......i am not saying, ttp is brutalizing swat because pakistan has diplomatic and defence ties with usa......it has had such ties for decades......

what i am saying is that pakistan is facing all this, including ttp, because it became the logistical supply lines for usa's gwot in afghanistan......further more, because it entered its forces into fata.....for no rhyme or reason......

to save the live of one us soldier, pakistan has risked its own country....is anyone in the usa shedding any tears for all the soldiers, policeman, and civilians dying in pakisatn....do you seriously think anyone in the usa cares.....

ttp is a blowback of the jihads in afghanistan......the first one and this one.....in both cases, pakistan was a frontline state for the usa....

the ttp is to be blamed......but a better solution would have been to not be in a situation, where it was to be created......

why are you so against, pakistan getting out of gwot......why are you bent upon pakistan becoming a center of suicide bombings.....

pakistan can fight the ttp and anyone else, without being a part of gwot......can it not......it will be much easier to do so......

how long do you think people will live in a city which has one suicide bomb a week......and if you seriously think, more violence is going to reduce suicide bombings, you are truly clueless.....

Jaafer Az Bengal
Urstruly Az Chowk
Nang-e-Deen
Nang-e-Qaum
Nang-e-Adam

hamidm mian#: ".... so you are sugggesting that pakistan should surrender to the taliban? ........"

...no i am not saying that.....what i am saying is that all the ttp would not have been created, had pakistan not jumped into gwot.....ttp was created less than two years ago.....

.....there are news out that there has been a suicide bombing across the road from jinnah super market.....i passed by there a few days ago......

.......there is no way to stop this.....people like you have been pushing for violence for years now.....look what it has resulted in......

........once pakistan gets out of gwot, much of this will die down.....one of the taliban leaders stated just yesterday that they will target islamabad for drone attacks.....

there were two suicide bombings in pakistan, just today....one in miranshah and one in islamabad.......

its about time people like you and tahmad, cut your nonsense and try to see where pakistan is going......there is no way to stop suicide bombings.....there is one a week in islamabad.......

none of these problems are organic.....the only homegrown violence in pakistan is shia-sunni violence and ethnic violence.....all this violence has been inherited because of pakistan's participaion in usa's gwot.....

.......pakistan should get out of gwot......after which, much of this will die down.......then it can tackle whatever is left, in a better way, as the whole public will be behind it.......

......if you are so concerned about gwot, why not join the us military and fight it out.....or at least move to islamabad.....

.......i had mentioned a year or two ago that pakistan would turn into baghdad if it hooked on with the usa.....this is what is happening......

Re: # 126
[none of them ever looked at that jouranilsts face. Their eyes were always lowered to the ground or away from her.]

Perhaps they did not wish any impure thoughts to enter their head.

Re: # 122

"do you know what they have done with the 12 billion dollars that we have given them so far ?? .......... "

who the hell is this "we"? you and the lice in your patloon?
Gadhay insaan, if this money was spent on Detroit, instead of the genocide of Muslims, Rick Wagoner and other us elite like him would still had his job, and yours too.

Recently I saw a documentary of Swat and Fata, by a British or Canadian journalist of Pakistani origin. She went deep inside the troubled areas and interviewed several Talibans, especially the youth of 13 - 18 years of age. Their dedication to their cause and their yearning to die for it was just another thing but what impressed me most was that none of them ever looked at that jouranilsts face. Their eyes were always lowered to the ground or away from her. How can one defeat such people?

I am distressed by the latest demo of cruelty -- the public lashing of a young woman -- in Pakistan. I hope this sorry episode opens the eyes of those few Pakistanis who still have not realized they are headed the wrong path (since day one).

Finally, someone in Pakistan spoke out - letter in Dawn where letter writer calls for public lashing of the generals who created these "strategic assets" that were lashing the poor 17 year old girl. He names General Zia (who escaped to hell), and General Hamid Gul he says is still alive and should be publicly lashed. I would add to this every other treacherous arab-wannabe in Pakistan!

bulleya: so you think the taliban are brutalizing the people of swat, murdering people all over pakistan, because pakistan maintains diplomatic relations with the US and has military ties with it?? you are like the abused spouse who claims the husband beats her every day because it is her fault.

bewakoof bulleya,

.... so you are sugggesting that pakistan should surrender to the taliban? ........ we all know that the pakistan army is very good at surrendering and building housing societies, but i don't think this time they can get awaay with it ..... if the taliban take over ghq i doubt they will be able to continue with their business enterprises ........ do you know what they have done with the 12 billion dollars that we have given them so far ?? ..........

.... if you think the taliban will just go away if the americans leave afghanistan you are mistaken ..... they will march on lahore and you will be back in toronto before arjun can say 't-shirt' ..............

Faruk #118 Actually the ones blowing themselves up are often mentally retarded - the taliban/alqaeda kingpins are not so stupid and they dont blow send themselves or their own progeny to blow themselves up. There is a method to their madness.

Khyber #119 Well said!!

#102 Posted by Urstruly .....do you keep your female family members at home the way TALIBAN wants women to stay home?are your hands clean,you never commit any sin???its easy to impose your ideas on others but do you follow Islam 100%.Those who are bitching about drone attacks.let me clear one thing,your army refused or not willing to take action against criminal and thug Taliban,MUSHY BOY was paid more then 11 billion dollars but he did not arrest any of Taliban leaders,stupid and coward ANP leaders in NWFP paid 6 million dollars to criminals of SWAT and made deal with them,so what you guys expect from U.S.A. to just watch these criminals attacking people on both sides of the border???What these TALIBAN THUGS have done for their community,whether its LAL MASJID CHICK WITH STICKS OR TALIBAN IN SWAT AND IN TRIBALS,they are only killing and destroying schools???so if your army is unable to kill them or punish them then there are others who can take care of them.Those who feel they hate USA then don't take AID and money from USA either.

re: hamidm2

".... can you tell me why mullahs like you fear and hate women? "

Came on man! these guys are blowing themselves up to get laid and you want to know why they hate women.


Faruk

Re # 110, 113

Agreed. There is intense hatred against USA that is apparent and transcends all cross-sections and layers of the society. This is bound to grow as we sink deeper into the so called WOT.

As for drone attacks, it is the inherent weakness of the government and compromise on the sovereignty that such shameful attacks are being allowed.

Given the strategic importance and geographical location, pull out of Pakistan is only unfortunately a theoretical possibility. One way or the other Pakistan has to go for or against the US designs.

#109 Posted by bulleya on April 3, 2009 10:53:30 pm


.......why are people who don't even bother to live in pakistan, who pay taxes to the usa, so concerned about pakistan.


seeing as how you all are out with a begging bowl at the IMF, it's the US taxpayer who's keeping you alive...not the paki taxpayer...

#113 Posted by bulleya on April 4, 2009 1:14:16 am


.......the second is regarding the drone attacks......there is no law in the world that allows a country to attack across another country's borders, just because it wants to.....


there's always the "not a damn thing you can do about it" law....take a look at section 2.c titled "so what the fuck are you going to do about it"....



and pakistan will be cut out of the int'l economic supply chain


seeing as how you're out with a beggging bowl, a 2% GDP growth rate and 25% inflation, you already amount to less than a hill of beans in the international economic order...



if this taliban revolution storms into punjab, it is not going to stop till it reaches panipat......
trust me on this one.......i stated this before the mumbai attacks, also.......


So...are you saying we should pre-order t-shirts with taliban flags?

Romair, if we're concerned, people tell us to mind our own business. If we're not concerned, you say not to mind our own business. Most people I know are keeping an eye on things, but don't really care a lot about what happens in Pakistan.
You have a 100% record when it comes to predictions.

...there are certain incomprehensively illogical statements that the usa has been making, regarding pakistan's role in the gwot's afghanistan theatre......ironically some (though luckily, very few pakistani commentators have been parroting the same (il)logic)......

....the first is the responsibility thrust on pakistan to stop the flow of taliban across the borders, between pakistan and afghanistan......

......why doesn't the usa stop this on the afghan side of the border....if someone tries to cross into pakistan, us soldiers should shoot him......and if someone tries to go in the other direction, from pak to afghanistan, us soldiers should do the same......

......whenever a country is invaded, its fighters will cross into a neighboring country.....if pakistan invades mexico, its fighters will cross into arizona, texas and california.....at that time, is it the invader (pakistan's) job to stop this infiltration, or usa's......

similarly, if the usa has decided to invade afghanistan, it should go in with enough soldiers, to gaurd the borders......how does it become pakistan's responsibility to guard the borders for the usa......pakistan never asked the usa to invade afghanistan.......

.......the second is regarding the drone attacks......there is no law in the world that allows a country to attack across another country's borders, just because it wants to.....

......if we accept the usa's case that the taliban, after crossing the border and creating safe havens in pakistan, hence the usa can go after them, then this principle should apply to all such situations......

.....in such a case, india should be allowed to send drones into pakistan, as and when it wants, if it declares that it feels militants have safe havens in pakistan.......pakistan should quitely sit back and let india bomb lahore......why does pakistan not allow india to do so.......

.......similarly, in the first afghan war, pakistan, was, actually and fully, creating safe havens for jihadis to go fight the soviet invaders in afghanistan.....this was state policy, supported and funded by the usa......(in case of this war, it is not state policy)......

......however, in the first afghan war, pakistan never allowed a single soviet jet to bomb pakistan and these safe havens......the moment a jet entered pak airspace, it was shot down......

.......if we, however, follow the same rule, then the soviets had total rights to bomb pakistan.....the soviet case is actually stronger......in that war, the state of pakistan had created the safe havens and training camps in pakistan, to train jihadis.....

how, then is the situation of the soviets different from that of the usa.....both invaded a country, and both show concern about safe havens in pakistan.....not to mention, india's case....

pakistan needs to have one policy....either let everyone bomb, across borders.....or let no one bomb across borders......in addition, it needs to make it clear to the usa that since it has invaded afghanistan, the usa needs to bring in its own soldiers to stop afghan traffic on the afghan side of the border......if usa doesn't have enough soldiers, then i am sure hamidm and tahmad are ready to volunteer as proud soldiers of their adopted land......if they cannot do the job, then the usa shouldn't have invaded, in the first place......

if pakistan doesn't get out of gwot, then i think in two years, pakistan will have huge problems........a few more suicide bombs in isb and lhr, and the pakistani intellegensia is going to migrate out.......and pakistan will be cut out of the int'l economic supply chain.....even hamidm mian and urstruly will stop making their annual visits.......

no point in supprting a war that is a lost cause, in afghanistan, and destroying your own country in the process.....

P.S. another thing that surprises me is the lack of concern from our indian colleagues on what is happening.....if this taliban revolution storms into punjab, it is not going to stop till it reaches panipat......

trust me on this one.......i stated this before the mumbai attacks, also.......

i had always wondered how the afghans conquered a more sophisticated indus and ganga valley......now i know.......

Pakis treated like cattle in cattle market ready for slaughter
by their sarkar.

this sarkar in pakiland needs to be over thrown. the rulers sent to afghanistan and given Najibullah treatment

Re: # 83

HP, Masadi & Co.

Sahibs, I have other things to do, like travelling and enjoying also. Masadi became mundane and HP sahib aapka tou subhanallah (sahi use kiya, nahi tou maafi chahta houn).

Masadi ji, I did not see what you posted on HBS. If you posted a british journalist's experience. You are a little too late, it has been widely publicized by HBS. BTW, this shows the difference, you look for the sewer and write or post sewer inspection report. Many, like me, see value very differently.

tahmad #: "Now it is up to the Supreme Court to do something to bring justice."

...i am not sure what the supreme court will be able to do.....this wave will continue to increase, as long as pakistan is in support of usa's gwot.....

......literally everyone in pakistan hates the usa, now.....by hates, i mean truly hates.....from the liberal to the very conservative......they all hate the usa....they feel the usa has forced pakistan inot this gwot, which has led to violence in pakistan, and the rise of ttp.....

......there was no ttp, prior to gwot.....and swat used to be a popualr tourist resort.....pakistan had never seen a single suicide bomb......baitullahs and fazlullahs were nobodies......

......now everything has changed......

.......pakistanis hate the ttp also......and they hate the usa.......however, there is a small group that supports the ttp.......until pakistan gets out of gwot and dumps being the usa's supply line, there will never be end to end consensus in pakistan, against ttp.......

.......ttp has now stated that the will carry out bombing attacks in islamabad for the drone attacks by the usa......

the war is between taliban and the usa.....pakistan needs to stay out......after which it will have some chances to taking out ttp.....their support will dwindle on its own to a great extent.....

urstruly/hamidm mian#: why are pakistani expats in usa so supportive of violence.......urstruly encourages whipping young girls, if they walk out with their father in laws, instead of their husbands.......and hamidm mian supports bombing them, if they wear a burqa or don't use indoor plubming.....and their isn't a usa war on muslims that tahmad hasn't supported wholeheartedly

.......why are people who don't even bother to live in pakistan, who pay taxes to the usa, so concerned about pakistan.....and why are they bent upon pushing their causes in pakistan in such a violent manner.......

......is it because they suffer from a complex.......they don't get any attention in the lands they have migrated to, want to feel important by pushing their views in pakistan.....

why not try to push these policies in the usa.....why be such hypocrites....why not let pakistan be, and enjoy yourseles in deaborn.....

Re: # 102 Urstruly,

First of all, the system of justice, crime and punishment has to be based on context. It is not absolutely rigid. Islam says that the basic principles of crime and punishment are sacrosanct, but it also recognizes and provides for Ijtihad on how to implement dispensation of justice to achieve the objectives of a just and orderly society. For example, even during the time of the prophet and his closest companions, the punishment for stealing (cutting off of hand) was not always implemented. That should give you a clue as to the contextual nature of the Islamic penal code.

Second, the strict rules of evidence, eyewitness testimony by several reliable witnesses, qualifications of the judges fully conversant with the Islamic jurisprudence, proper representation of the accused, and due process are an integral part of the system of Islamic justice. It seems that none of these rules and processes were respected in Swat. It's nothing but rough, tribal "justice". It's not Islamic Shariah. It's a travesty of Islamic Shariah.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 93

masadi mian,

... did those guys beating up on the poor girl look like american elite? ......... you are one sick puppy

Re: # 99

urstruly,

.... you are a very sick person who should be castrated (not that you are ever going to get a woman with an attitude like that) ......

.... can you tell me why mullahs like you fear and hate women?

HAHA....

U.S. drone fires missile in Pakistan, kills 13: officials

Reuters
Friday, April 3, 2009; 11:36 PM

PESHAWAR, Pakistan (Reuters) - A pilotless U.S. drone aircraft fired a missile in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing 13 people including some foreign militants, security officials and residents said.

The attack was in the North Waziristan region, a stronghold of al Qaeda and Taliban militants on the Afghan border, in an area 35 km (20 miles) west of the region's main town of Miranshah at about 3 a.m. (6 p.m. EDT on Friday), they said.

"The missile hit a house where some guests were staying," one intelligence agency official said, referring to foreign militants.

"We have information that 13 people were killed including some guests," said the official, who declined to be identified.

One resident, Amir Shah, said drones were still flying over the area several hours after the attack.

Many al Qaeda and Taliban militants fled to northwestern Pakistani border regions such as North Waziristan after U.S.-led forces ousted the Taliban in Afghanistan in late 2001.

From the remote ethnic Pashtun tribal lands that have never been governed by any Pakistani government, the militants have orchestrated the Afghan war and plotted violence beyond.

With the Afghan insurgency intensifying, the United States began launching more drone attacks on the Pakistani side of the border last year.

Since then, about 35 U.S. strikes have killed about 350 people, including mid-level al Qaeda members, according to reports from Pakistani officials, residents and militants.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

There is no reaction but to condemn it loud and without any exceptions. I heard on the telly yesterday a Minister from NWFP condemning the media portrayal of this barbaric incident as a conspiracy to sabotage the peace deal in Swat. This is crap, to say the least. If continuance of such acts by the Taliban is to be allowed on the pretext of any peace deals then its better that we wash our hands off this whole drama and take these goons out. Bravo to CJ for taking timely action and ordering the girl to be presented in his Court. But I am afraid that's asking too much. If she has not been killed by now (God forbid), then I don't see the Police or any one of our agencies being able to produce her from God knows which cave these Talibans have shoved her in.

Re: # 100

Obey Allah not amrika

"The man and the woman guilty of fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes and let not compassion move you in their case in the enforcement of the law of God, if you truly believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. This man guilty of fornication may only marry a woman similarly guilty or an idolatoress and this woman guilty of fornication may only marry such a man or an idolator. The believers are forbidden such marriages. (The Light 24:2-3)

Re: # 100 Khyber... Now govt and Sufi Mo. both have accepted Sharia as law. The punishment is lawful according to rules. Now what is this hypocracy of PM and president, they agreed to counditions laid by Sufi and his Son in law. If they are so remorseful and saddened and angered havethey got guts to any thing ? They have not shown any thing of sort. Crying and making gesture in forest is fine but its impotent. They should have thought before, now that area is out of bound, no point in closing barn, horse is out and running strong. PM and president should put up or shut up.
Good morning.

#99 Posted by Urstruly ...why don't you join Taliban club?what these thugs are doing is unacceptable in civilized world. Taliban are bunch of ignorants who even can't write their names.Do you want this kind of SAUDI ARABIA'S WAHABI VERSION OF ISLAM????
The video exposes the barbarity that lies at the heart of the Taliban movement. This is the Taliban version of Sharia law in action, and it is coming to a chowk near you in the foreseeable future. How should we respond to this? There will be those who will watch the video and say 'Yes…that is the right thing to do. She deserves that punishment. Others should be punished in a similar way.' The people who are of this view are often vociferous, strident even, in their support of an interpretation of religious law that fits their medieval paradigm. We hear their voices every day. Then there are others who will watch it and say 'No, this is not the way things should be done. This is not the Islam that I believe in. Brutal behaviour such as this makes a vile mockery of my faith. I do not want this to happen in my country.' Unfortunately, we do not hear the voices that speak in terms of moderation and tolerance and diversity and acceptance of 'other'. We do not hear them because they are either drowned out by the louder voices of barbarism or because they are voices that speak low and soft, out of the range of normal hearing. We would like to think that the voices not being heard are the voices of the majority, the voices that belong to men and women who want to see a developed and prosperous Pakistan that is a model for the Muslim world.

You members of the softly-spoken majority have a choice to make. Either you continue to speak but have your words drowned out by those who would publicly whip your sisters, mothers, daughters and wives for whatever petty gossip is parlayed by jealous or malicious neighbours; or you raise your voices loud in protest. Say strong and clear that this is not for you. Organise and march and lobby and agitate and protest and in so doing stem the tide of extremism that rolls ever closer. You choose. Because if you don't choose, and the tide rolls around the corner of your street and it is your wife or daughter or sister or mother screaming in front of you as she is flogged – then you have nobody to blame but yourselves.

Whether the requirements for evidence were met according to Qura'nic injunctions or not while flogging a girl in Swat for commiting fornication, is a seperate issue. But if those conditions were met then that is exactly the prescibed punishment for fornication. I think the girl received 70 leaseh short because prescribed punishment is that of 100 leashes for unmaried fornicator.

Mirasio! hoshiar ho jao tumhare 60 sal ki ayashion ke shamat ayi hay.

Bad girls, bad girl,
watchu gonna do, watchu gonna do,
When Taliban come for you...

Re: # 97

Ahmed - You are not seeing the big picture. However, on your advice, I am currently measuring the distance to Indian Border, and as my personal initiative the distance to Afghan Border and size of Afghan Jihadi's beard who was caught attempting to bomb the army helicopter. I think the puzzle will be solved when seen through this triangle prism.

Re: # 95 Catchy you have missed point, can you tell me what was distance of police training and Indian border ? There lies the key to secret of this operation
Good day.

Mr.T you please do not comment about Sher E Sindh aka Quaid E Mohajir as you have no pure mind but predejuiced mind.Now you have probblem when Mr.A.H. address the MQM gatherings from London. Then you criticise his style of talking. But all other people like his address so what is your problem. Due special dangerous conditions existing in country he can not be present but still he cares enough to address from London.People value is quite high and ready to suffer in rain, sun and winds as they know Altaf Bhai cares for them and their progress in his mind all time. He does not have normal luxuries of life but 24 hours , 7 days work.
Now he is bot best orator is true and he has notr best delivery. He some times get "voice problem" and is not singer to pass from one octave to other smmothly. When he sees people waiting for his lecturer he just can not control him. Like a mother who is prisioned and when he sees the little baby she can not control her voice that what is happening. Bhai is not master of MQM masses but he is servant of people of Karachi. When he sees his people his thoughts start flowing as poetry and words are not coherant some times as his speech is poetry to his devotes, it is spiritual distillation, construction and emotions meeting and that starts that flow and words flows from his brain and meaning of those words chases. It is some times compressed material and his brilliant mind is fast and moves with light of speed while words lag and speaking is mechaniocal act of voice box it can not keep pace with his brain power and there happens discordency of notes. When that happens he gets frustrated as his voice can not keep up with his chains of thoughts spreading in all direction as big artillery at same time the foucus is directed forwelfare of Human kind. Also as he is far too long and he misses so much Karachi and Sindh Dharati, when he sees soil, water and air of karachi he almost goes in transe and then he even looses his mind and only he goes on as he has courage with faith and and faithful courage. He loves Sindh Dharati and City Karachi he can not control when he wants to help people by telling what people should do. He overcomes with emotion as misery of people touches him lot and it saddens him instantly. Then he goes animated, it is when he leaves physical plane of normal people and and when people respond to his intelluctual discourse he feels like batsman who just made century with sixter and people are greeting him, by emotion he breakes his voice and even looses control on his voice machine and to release that energy this hands and all body gets animated as any great actor or like and real spiritual pir experiencing spirit which kind of makes hin feel disoriented.He feels sad when people and country do not pay attention to his sage advice. By that he does not loose anything, he has nothing to loose , he has lost all what he had, he is naked King of Karachi at same time Fakir not beware of normal things. Galib said " Fakiri me muze bhi mangneke shurm aati hay. Altaf bhai has gone beyond Fakir he has nothing only he asks people to follow path of tolerance, brotherhood and nothing much. He is shameless in asking people for sacrafice as he has done is all his life.
Kindly think lot about it. A Bhai is not even liked by Sindhis of Karachi as some times he is hardmaster and asks them to improveHe has gone beyond praise , only welfare of Sindh is his mind so does not go on appeasing people as he is not interestedin cheap "Popularity" but in welfare of people.
I request you to listen carefully to his lectures which gives us great advantage of his knowledge , experience and wisdom . Please take out hatred of A. Bhai and that can help you condition which is now pathetic. You were talk about 40 people killed when CJ even after advice decided to drop on city like bomb. A.H. has requested to come later so his people can give good reception. After that incidentA.H. got very pensive and hurt at heart people are not following peaceful ways, he decided last resort to sacrafice himself and went on hunger strike and things subsided as awam got worried. Any way you are not going to think about these matters. I wish you peace and good morning.

The lesson from Lahore tragedy is that people sitting in Islamabad, Delhi, Tel-Aviv and Washignton need to learn some lessons from the Chaos created by them in mis-handling of Afghanistan, Kashmir, Iraq and Palestine issues.

Quran 2.11: "And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers."

2.12: "Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive."

Let's us all work towards real enduring peace for survival of all of us by shunning hatred, violence and oppresiion. Mere accusations, finger-pointing, arrogance and war-mongering will escalate the chaos.

Interestingly I must agree with Masadi .. The US in 2002 has the third highest rape rate in the World after South Africa and Canada according to UN statistics..

http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/eighthsurvey/8sv.pdf

They also have amongst the world's highest rates of child prostitution ..

Although in no way does this vindicate the monkey mullahs and their nonsense...this protection of women business and the heartfelt American laments to this effect are total rubbish designed to elicit international support to invade/destabalise Pakistan.

Can't you see what's happening. Beating women is being linked to the peace deal and sharia` who stands to gain from the continuing conflict and military action in the region, certainly not women- they are butchered by the Americans, certainly not the people they are displaced and killed- only the Taliban and the US, these leeches live off each other...

TNITC masadi

so a video pops up making the case for America to go on a rampaging war against Pakistan to "liberate women" just as they have liberated Afghani women, while at home over 4 million women are beaten blue and black and no videos "leak" to the media....Canada needs to invade the US and liberate its women folk....

Tahmed needs to quit fighting for "justice" on Chowk- for him supporting "justice" is supporting the thugs that have created gendered division around the globe and quite directly in the case of Afghanistan and the Taliban I might add....

TNITC masadi

amath: better yet, why not flog an untouchable caste hindu instead of tea. that will be much more fun, and will guarantee your next life as a high caste brahmin.

Sanatan Dharam (Hinduism) does not say that hitting untouchables will grant you paradise. Also, NO hindu believes he will be born as brahmin by this act. Its an invention of your imagination.

But you HAD to come up with something ,,,,, right?
:D

#89 tahmed32,I was able to get this video although its not working on youtube.com,but i invite to post a comment by visiting following link.

http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Now it is up to the Supreme Court to do something to bring justice.

Khyber #86 indeed. and youtube says "This video has been removed due to terms of use violation". It would be interesting to know who complained and got the video removed - the Pakistan government (hoping to get public pressure off) or some taliban sympathizer. The BBC shows a sanitized version (fast forwards, and the girl's screams of agony are taken out). Too bad the truth about such brutalities has been taken off the internet.

THERE IS A NEW LINK TO WATCH BARBARIAN TALIBAN WHO ARE PUNISHING A GIRL.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/7980877.stm

#76 tahmed32
SEEMS LIKE THEY REMOVED THE VIDEO OF THAT POOR GIRL WHO WAS VICTIM OF TALIBAN...ITS NOT THERE ANYMORE....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8i_aovQYQQ

HP sahib what about my new article are "they" going to publish it on FP?

TNITC masadi

HP sahib, couldn't resist the HBS, otherwise I do not post or bother with Anil.

Have a nice day and take it easy....glad to hear he has been banned, his keyboard fingers needed a rest as did his chaprasee following of me around these streets...

TNITC masadi

Specially for Anil

What they teach you at Harvard Business School
---

Mr. Asadi, Please stop posting against Anil. He has been banned for posting against you and I think it is time you stop responding to him. Someone has to stop this madness.

=== Interact Filtered ===
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Re: # 69
beduin32...
If Pakistan is not fully islamised, it is the indian influence, that is making it possible...otherwise, it would have been like that of 7th century arabia...anyhow, Pakistan is reaching that point...couple of decades from now, it will reach its destination (if US do not force to impose humanity within Paki muslas i.e. do not spend money on war on terror/islam)....

Specially for Anil

What they teach you at Harvard Business School

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/book s/article4443213.ece

Quote:
The total bill for his time at HBS is $175,000. Was it worth it? For all its vast reputation, power and pomposity, you feel that HBS neither understands the complexity nor acknowledges the chaotic unpredictability of the world economy any better than anyone else. More conclusively, it encourages its little alumni to major in hypocrisy. You go there for one simple reason: to make shedloads of money. Fine, so it’s no crime in itself to want to be absurdly and pointlessly rich, although it’s certainly no virtue. What sticks in the gullet is graduates’ self-flattering delusion that they’re on some kind of crusade, their “very American� insistence, as Delves Broughton puts it, on being not only “the most powerful, the richest and most successful�, but also “the most morally good�. At the same time as learning how to manipulate billions in order to profit, say, from ordinary people’s fretful indebtedness during a recession, you can believe that you are a philanthropic leader of men. Yet these are people whose answer to their own question, “How will I know how much is enough?� is, “When you've got your own jet.� Any notion that such jet-setting plutocrats are truly concerned about the rest of us, or the planet, or the future, is laughable.

to continue #76: and ANP (the party most directly responsible for Swat) is, in their usual beyghairat fashion, silent.

kamath: better yet, why not flog an untouchable caste hindu instead of tea. that will be much more fun, and will guarantee your next life as a high caste brahmin.

Khyber: indeed (I am assuming this is the one about the girl being flogged). keep a close eye on how the politicians react - zardari "condemns" (words are cheap, particularly zardaris); PM "demands" punishment (OK, lets wait and see); CJ uses suo moto to demand girl be produced before court.. (OK, lets wait and see). Jamaat-i-Islami says this is a "minor matter" and people should focus on drone attacks by the US (thus demonstrating their hypocrisy and savagery!!).

Hi All;

I am really enjoying all this Tamasha going in Land of the Pure. Pour some good tea and enjoy watching the fun and what is going on the Radio.

Kamath

Watch this video and find out what kind of Islam Taliban wants to impose in Pakistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8i_aovQYQQ

nb: how does that follow from what i wrote in #69?

Tahmed32, I see everything and everyone you don't like is dismissed as a gift from India.

mr. madani: and we panjabi people even thinking we have right to vote. so we kick out poor general mr. enlightened musharraf. very bad. we also kick out poor governor-rule of mr zardari even when mr ataf bhayya try very much to tell panjabi people they very bad villagers only and have no right to electing own leaders. have very good day, mr. madani.

mr. madani: yes we panjabi people extremely very bad people. we think we have right to live in pakistan. poor frog-shaped altaf bhayya go crazy and start dribbling from mouth like madman when he started the talking, talking, talking, always talking, on telephone and from their on loudspeaker to mqm follower people. very good day to you, sir gentleman mr. madani.

majumdar: my point was that it is not the local Sindhis who are the extremists - they voted overwhelmingly for PPP whom Dr. Cheema was ignoring. Sindhis have traditionally followed sufi Islam with its rich and peaceful culture and traditions. Political instability and violence in Karachi (whether religious or mqm) were imports from India (via maudoodi in case of religious violence, via altaf in case of ethnic violence).

There have been many positive imports from India too no doubt - most notably, there is no doubt that the successful nurture of democracy in India, has provided an excellent example in Pakistan to follow, and shut the mouths of the Pakistani babus who are uncomfortable with idea of the "unwashed" having the vote. And of course Pakistan itself is the creation of an Indian, Jinnah. But those were not relevant to the point I was making to mr. cheema.

nb and nkg ... I have already stated my point of view below ... I have nothing more to add to that

#66 NKG, I mentioned him already indirectly, Hanif's cousin.

Re: # 59
akcheema...
the london/glasgow bomber( from Bangalore) was member of Tablighi Jamat and he was indoctrined to jihad/islamic value system via this organisation...in normal circumstance (where there is no sign of conflict) these people may behave as ordinary peace-loving citizens...but at the time of adversary, how they react, is there for everyone to see...fundamentalism is root cause of extreamism/terrorism....

Re: # 64; nb

all I amsaying is (without defending individual's actions) that when one becomes comfortable with one ideology, he/she is less likely to falter into another form of the same ... it is those who are undecided that are fair game for the extremists ... point is, just because someone is a tablighi, doesn't mean he has to be (internally) comfortable with everything (good or bad) it stands for .. hence always room to deviate from that mainstream

#63 This is the one I meant
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablighi_Jamaat_and_allegations_of_terrorism

Being human is a marker for being terrorist too, where did you last see a terrorist bunny?
I think some people looking for meaning in their lives start out with this because it's so mainstream, and some of those in turn move on to more radical groups, as a result of which an awful lot of terrorists have probably gone through this group. I still think it's worthwhile keeping an eye on members and ex-members, but not to keep someone out of the US because he is a member.

Re: # 62

this is the article I did read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablighi_Jamaat

... besides, by your logic in 61, any muslim can turn terrorist (and you'd be right in thinking that) ... I still reckon propotionately less of the tablighis do so than the general population

#60 Also the wiki article is fairly neutral, have a read of it before you diss it.

#60 That's why I said I wasn't 100% convinced. I think myself that this group is probably more of a marker for individuals who will eventually become terrorists than a terrorist group in itself. So it's worth looking at these people, but it's not worth banning this group.
No, I haven't looked at anti-Jewish sites, as you know I'm not that way inclined. I get a regular digest of their content from alert chowkies known as catchy and atif2. Catchy still hasn't caught on to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion being a hoax, please don't tell him.

Re: # 58

and as for articles on the internet about 'groups' are concerened, have you ever ventured into anti-jewish sites? ... if yes, do you believe everything you read?

if we just follow the americans on everything, we will lose all objectivity there is ... that may well be your way of thinking, just not mine

Re: # 58; nb

problem is tablighis have literally tens of thousands of adherents around the world ... they still have active centres in the UK and India too where they are not regarded as terrorists

individual members can chose to do what they want ... theseguys are universally ridiculed in Pakistan by hardliners as 'negaters of jihad' ... and called 'almost hindus' in their outlook (apart from the missionary element of course)

individuals in any group are exacly that ... individuals, who will do their 'own thing' from time to tome

personally I find it difficult to just take the american understanding on everything at face vlue ... they themselves have a lot to answer for

'independent thinking' means exactly that to me ... independent

#57 It's ok, I just googled him. He lost his green card and had to leave the US (yet another occasion to rejoice for Masadi).
Akcheema, there is a wiki article on "Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism". It doesn't seem 100% convincing, but it is enough to be concerned. You remember Dr Mohammed Haneef's cousins, the Ahmeds? They were involved with this group.

#56 Arjun, that's amazing. It just shows how differently the US and Pakistan view the war on terror. Do you know what happened to this doctor eventually?

#55 Posted by akcheema on April 3, 2009 2:15:10 am

nope..it's the same organization..the one almost half the paki cricket team belongs to...

Re: # 53; arjun

you may be right but the tablighis I have ever come across are not jihadists and I can stake anything on that

also, many jamaats take up similar names ... I wonder if the 'tablighi jamaat' and the 'jamaat-e tabligh' are the same? ... given until a couple of months ago I came across a few who've been literally around the world without too many issues

#49 Posted by muqaddam on April 3, 2009 1:32:31 am

lots of bird metaphors...chickens coming home to roost for pakis with head buried in the sand...

#52 Posted by akcheema on April 3, 2009 1:49:22 am


the 'tablighi' jamaat ... which is hardly a 'jihadist' organisation


The TJ has been identified as a terrorist organization by the Us intel agencies...although without a formal declaration... In fact, membership of the TJ will raise a red flag with DHS if you try to enter the US.

Feds: Arizonan tied to terror
Officials detain Tempe doctor

Dennis Wagner
The Arizona Republic
Jan. 19, 2006 12:00 AM

An Arizona doctor and mosque leader returned to the United States on Wednesday from a pilgrimage in Mecca to face allegations by the FBI and Department of Homeland Security tying him to a terrorist organization.

Nadeem Hassan, 41, made a phone call to his father from Kennedy International Airport in New York, saying he was in the custody of immigration officials.

Zaheer Hasnain said his son does not know whether he will be jailed or allowed to come home.

Days earlier, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services revoked Hassan's right to work and travel inside the country based primarily on his ties to an orthodox Islamic missionary group that the Department of Homeland Security identified as a terrorist organization.

Hassan, a gastroenterologist at Maricopa Medical Center and former chief executive at the Masjid el-Noor Mosque in Mesa, has worked for years as a coordinator with Jamaat al Tabligh (Society That Propagates the Faith). The worldwide movement calls upon Muslims to live up to their faith.

Jamaat al Tabligh, or JT, previously has not been designated a terrorist group by the government. However, in paperwork rejecting Hassan's application for a green card, Homeland Security described JT as "a terrorist organization (that) . . provides material support . . . to members of a designated terrorist organization - al Qaida; and provides the same types of material support . . to an undesignated terrorist organization - the Taliban."

The papers go on to tell Hassan, "You are found to have engaged in terrorist activity by providing material support to an undesignated terrorist organization."

Homeland Security representatives declined Wednesday to discuss Hassan's case. An FBI spokeswoman declined to comment.

Muslim officials expressed shock at the accusations against Jamaat al Tabligh, insisting it is a loose-knit missionary movement that shuns politics and violence. Hasnain said that his son is not a terrorist and that JT "has nothing to do with the Taliban, nothing to do with al-Qaida."

Re: # 50

Inter-marriages between Punjabi speakers and Siraiki speakers, even in urbanised areas of Bahawalpur is very rare indeed

there are exceptions of course, but they are exactly that ... exceptions

the current wave of blaming 'southern' punjab for all the ills of Pakistan is nothing but a devious attempt to shift blame .... those who do partake in 'sharaarats' are almost always punjabi settlers and NOT the native Siraikis (for the most part) ... the most the natives will do (from a religious perspective) is to join the 'tablighi' jamaat ... which is hardly a 'jihadist' organisation

Re: # 17

"But, as a practical step to make it happen, the world must in parallel ensure that the underlying causes are addressed to give people hope, be it lack of economic opportunity, military repression and human rights abuses in Kashmir, or serious pursuit of resolution of regional and international disputes."

Sure, we should all address the root cause which is TNT and in the final count ISLAM.

Let us eliminate the "root cause" .

Raiz bhai we are all with you.

Re # 43

The population of Punjab may not be monolithic so to speak. Population, customs, culture even language and dialects varies from region to region. The distinction is more apparent in larger blocks like Saraiki, Punjabi and Potowar. Also the regions in northern Punjab namely Chakwal, Jhelum, Gujjar Khan and Potowar has bred more Army Generals than anywhere esle in Pakistan. To quote an unconfirmed source 84% of Pakistan's Army personnel hail from the 'entire Punjab'.

Having said that, the social and physical interaction and relations transcend any boundaries that pave way for a peaceful co-existence. Intermarriages and joint businesses are frequent that enable these geographically isolated people to gel together.

Differences in personalities, behaviour and attitudes do not give rise to a friction that should spark some serious concerns.

chickens coming home to roost, shall we say?

'I think ISI is or parts of ISI are certainly a problem to be dealt with,' said Undersecretary Flournoy, one of the two witnesses testifying before the committee. But I think we have a new democratic government and I think we have strong parts of the military who see the extremist threat, who want to deal with that extremist threat. And part of our policy challenge is to empower them to be more effective in doing that

///////////////////

That is a brilliant idea to empower some sections of the military. Already some pakis are attacking the others in the name of jihad, now some parts of teh paki army can attack the others.

I do hope that this will finally split teh paki military into the jihadis and no-jihadis.

That will be a great fun to watch. Time to de-nuke and resize pakiland may not very far.

Ather mian,

Not many pakis care about deaths in the streets. Right from childhood they are used to seeing their fathers killing large animals like cows and goats in the back yards as part eid.

In no other muslim country is such brutality so rampant. In most of UAE, such killings are banned. It is this desensitization of children at a young age that makes pakistanis immune to blood and guts in teh streets.

There were marches in support of the CJ. Not even a single paki protests in the streets about jihadic killings like in lahore.

Tahmed sahib,

Jamaat e Islami is maudoodi's creation, another gift from india. along with altaf psychopath.

And the habit of branding of people by their ethnicity and religion (which has been picked up by a few Pakis too) is another filthy gift from India.

Regards

Manmohan Singh is a wise, wonderful man: Obama
3 Apr 2009, 1037 hrs IST, PTI
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
LONDON: It appeared like a mutual admiration society with President Barack Obama and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh effusively praising each other
Obama and Manmohan
US President Barack Obama meets with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh during their bilateral meeting at the G20 Summit in London. (Reuters Photo)
after their first meeting. ( Watch )

The 48-year-old new American leader described Singh as a "wise" and "wonderful" man as the two leaders met on the sidelines of G-20 here last night.

"First of all I should say that your Prime Minister is a wonderful man. He is wise and decent man," said Obama, clearly impressed by the economist-PM's persona.

////////////////////////

I recall that one paki PM wanted to be tapped on the back by Bush. Another PM was trying to impress condi rice.

The new PM is so stupid that he cannot talk. The zardari, president of PM was wonder stuck by the beauty of sara palin.

This reflects the nature of pakistanis and their value system, only the idiots come to the top.

"I truly believe that we do not want to continue killing our own people. "

////////////////

Ather mian..very sobering thought. Where were you when thousands of jihadis were trained and sent to india. So your motto killing of "our own people" is bad. That means there are some others that are to be killed.

Ather mian there in lies the fallacy.

It is people like you who create the good taliban and the bad taliban, the kashmir jihadi and the afghan jihadi.

Take it from me, the jihadis are general purpose killing machines produced in the paki madrassas. Some join baitullah, others join the paki army, and that is why the so called security is lax.

that is the only reason why not even a single person was arrested for the cricket attack, the jihadi in the ISI will not arrest a jihadi of the baitullah.

Re: # 41

because central punjab are the most 'self-righteous' of all Pakistanis and upper Punjab forms the backbone of the armed forces

the natives in southern Punjab are generally well meaning siraikis who have a very sufiistic attitude towards religion (and life in general ... live and let live)

the state of Bahawalpur should never have agreed to the 'one-unit' ... the socalled 60% population of Punjab is often portrayed as 'monolithic' by tahmed et al ... not so

one of my cousins is a lawyer ... and as per his own admission the Bar assiciations threatened to 'defrock' anyone who didn't stick to the 'official' lawyers' movement and tried to dissent ... or have a 'different' point of view

what was said about Naeem Bokhari (for his open letter to the CJ) is hardly indicative of a 'democratic' movement by anyone's standards

Re: # 36; tahmed sahib

I have attempted to answer your questions much more satisfactorily than you've ever reciprocated ... won't say any more

Re#33
Revelation that central/upper Punjab is the fulcrum of all problems confound me. Would you elaborate this point of view further?
Re#37
What message is Altaf Bhai delivering by asking people to buy arms,more appropriately to a nation that stands at the verge of civil war?

Re: # 39 Before QEAwam Altafbhai came on scene Mohajirs was voting block for JI/ Noorani

Re: # 38 Mr. T this restoring of CJ etc is very easy as you have to bend Z who is like Character of Hamlet.
We are Talking of Your Mountain friends, who are above law .
You take those marches to "sufi land" and see what happens.
We can not go on talking about old things, time is fast and life is fast. BB is dead, General is gone, millions of bengalis killed are gone and brave Punjabi soldiers in East Pakistan killing andraping their mothers and sisters and lahoreparties going on discussing as eugenics of raping upgrading of bengali dark race. I would not say this but you talk of bravery of punjab state and 60% residing there etc. I hope you should had little shame and you hypocratically talks about 40 killed by MQM or others. It was state policy/ 60% people policy to kill innocent people and rape their mothers and sisters and then when they resist you shoot them. Punjab was really lucky to be doing this to Bengalis, in other lands people would be coming to pakistan to kill these killers even after decades, you must have heard Eichman and others. Please do not talk of 40 People killed , it is sad and one feels diminished always. But do not wear skins of Lion a galant animal and proclaim as lion when you punjabis are hynas or vultures in this matter. Major A.Amin is right punjabis are hopeless in many matters but specially in integrity and honesty and character.
Good day and shut up crying for 40 killed all time.

Only leader who is openly hostile to TTP is one that is Altafbhai. Others are too feeble or they do not hate them. In fact mr. NS is openly for them and mr.Z says for American consumption. The most powerful man who has nuclear arms and can blow up India mr. Kayani is not even "harsh" in words. He is defeatist from start. He considers conceding writ of nation as winning and he is confused with abandoning position and retreating without fight as Victory. The sage from Mountains mr. Sufi Mo say you abandon position and hand over all ruling to him and he gives garanttee for peace is similar to Mr. Chemberlin bringing little paper from Hitler..."peace in our time". Kayani is mentaly dead defeated commander and dead mind can accomodate any defeat as victory. Now in prison guards whip prisoners and there is peace similar type of peace has come to Sufi's paradise. If there is Ghunda in your town and he is doing problem and troubleing your daughter wise way to confront him and punish by police. Now many times if top police boss is afraid Ghunda will kidnap you daughter. You goto police chief aand he say let us send your second daughter to him and then he will not make trouble and he has promised to be gentleman. The game is lost even before being start. General can claim president and Pm and all politicians have no guts. Then leave them and go away but do not try cover upboss imcompetenance.
MQM has gut to take on God dam TTP if they start coming to Karachi. They have fear of Altaf as he is not backboneless as president or Genral. He is ready to fight. Altaf knows if they come to Karachi they will start to Hurt MQM. He will not tolerate. Please all should note with all problems also Altafbhai has brains to plan and strong hands or wrist to cary out those plans. One of good thing with Bhaisahib is confronts problems head on and doesn not try to hide or avoid. In his recent message from London he has warned and asked people to buy arms and be prepared for resisance if needed. Zardari Kayani gang does not want to fight for "so called stability" which is dynamic instability controlled by TTP and enforced by fear and fear is key.NS and co is civilian lazy and saudi financed civilian front for TTP. Brother go after ophaned widowed poor Z but they never say a word against TTP. Brothers are fools, they are thinking they are wise by appeasing TTP and TTP will use them for some time and when they climb down and settle in Punjab they will devour brothers as corroupt and cowards.American think rightly brothersas coward but at same time want largeness of American, two imcompatible goals. TTP does not have to defeat army they just have to survive and that is deafeat for govt.
In TTP country army can go there only at pleasure of TTP commonders.
There is no leader or party resolutely against TTP and their friends except MQM. Only Party ready and mentaly prepared to fight trouble makers in way they want. One may like or not but only party standing tall is MQM no other and is only strong obstacle to Ghundas. Now Mqm can not fight TTP types by Gandhian way. Ruling is not easy in this times. Fear is key. Fear is lost on TTP and they are fear and useing violence to bend and rebend and squeeze army and top leadership. A message in action should from Zardari, if they use terror a elected govt can also use terror to meet them their way. If Z and gen. G can not lead govt and army to bring back rule of law let others have chance. terror is not destination but can be tactics to deal with terror. MQM was savaged for short time by Pathan and their friends Punjabis called PPI. MQM took challenge and gave bloody nose to PPI and problems were settled as MQM supremacty was established by violent ways leading to present empowerment of sindhis of Karachi. Hope people will and understand what MQM chief is saying. Today tribal areas gone, Peshawar
is partly lost, They can strike any where in city. Quetta is their capital HQ. Lahore govt control of terror is big joke when lanka and police attacked. Southern Punjab is fertile land for terror where 100 of thousands od Kasabs are in search of mission. Ther is one place TTP can not start their activities openly as MQM will target them and LLIMINATE them. Karachi is very safe from such problems as Karachi and urban areas are MQM country. Hope time will come when useless general and president will run to Karachi to catch flight on American Helicopters and then MQM will start fighting for them and bring justice.
Please to not underestimate the contribution of MQM mentaly so Karachi has no madness of extremisim.
Good day.

#23 Posted by tahmed32 on April 2, 2009 7:20:15 pm


cheema #22 You mean the philosophy that led MQM to shoot 40 peaceful demonstrators on May 12?


prophetboy is in a huff about that but the hundreds of thousands of bengalis killed without anyone being prosecuted? zilch...

#35 these are the thoughts you leave me with: you failed to answer any questions i had below about the mqm. all you could say was that if it was not mqm it would be ji. you berate the panjab - the province where 60 per cent pakistanis live, the province that was on the forefront of the struggle to restore the supreme court of pakistan.

so this is what i think: you are truly a genius.

anyhow ... I have to get going ... leave you with those thoughts

Khuda Hafiz

Re: # 33

Punjab is very much what the problem is with Pakistan sir ... especially Central/Upper Punjab (contrary to popular belief)

and I say this being a 'jaddi-pushti' Punjabi myself (with no identifiable adultrations to speak of!)

#31 and if you find it hypocritical of the PPP to be ruled by a wadera, shouldnt you also be finding it hypocritical of MQM to join the wadera and to support him in his failed attempt to disenfranchise the people of Panjab??

what we need is a truly secular alternative to what exists, with grassroots amongst the underprevilaged and low middle classes ... and MQM (and its following) has very much the potential to be incorporated into something more acceptable at a national level

time has come when we need tomove on from the questions/debates as to why this country was created ... be it 'for the muslims' or 'for Islam' ... unless we move on and acquire some maturity as a nation, we'll remain stuck in a rut

Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis

PPP lost its grassroots in Karachi a while back ... besides, I find it a bit hypocritical of a party claiming to be 'socialist' yet ruled (with no internal elections ever) by a feudal family as its 'jaageer'

the only good thing that came out of it (within cautious limitations of course) was ZAB ... he had a charisma of sorts and I say that despite many disagreements with what he stood for) ... could never be replicated in Pakistani politics after he was killed

akcheema sahib: i think you are forgetting PPP - and you are forgetting that the the Jamaat e Islami is maudoodi's creation, another gift from india. along with altaf psychopath.

Re: # 27; tahmed sahib
[[if MQM was not in karachi the only alternative was jamaat e islaami?? ]]

I am not sure of hamidm sahib's pov on this but for my part the answer is a YES ... loud and clear

... you may (and will) disagree of course ... but that is your prerogative

mr. masadi: good evening to you too. i am afraid i will have to do some work now. but i trust you will save the world in my absence.

#25 cheema: and did Hamidm the Oracle advise you that if MQM was not in karachi the only alternative was jamaat e islaami??

#23 so who are you speaking of?? the MQM members who actually fired the guns that killed 40 peaceful demonstrators calling for the rule of law?? or the MQM members who did not fire the guns and are therefore to be applauded??

Re: # 23

I am not speaking for altaph here ... as for isolated incidences, there are plety on all sides in Pakistani politics/religious sects etc for things to more than 'balance out' in my opinion

it is the overall ethos of what a group of people stand for and the outcome of course

had it not been for MQM, Karachi would have fallen long ago to Jamaat-e-Islami ... would you have preferred that option?

Ahmad sahib the Prosecutor's office in your esteemed town probably has three cabinet full of all kinds of pictures, maybe some videos too of women batterers among your esteemed American folk, what should be done with those "animals".

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

cheema #22 You mean the philosophy that led MQM to shoot 40 peaceful demonstrators on May 12?

Or the philosophy that led them to support the failed attempt by the next crook to disenfranchise the Panjab province?

Or the earlier philosophies of the 1980's that cause altaf to get out of the reach of the law in Pakistan and to rant long distance to his cult members from UK?

tahmed sahib ... without hazarding a silly discussion with you, MQM and its philosophy is not completely without merit

... the results are all too obvious at the disparity in the 'thinking' between Karachi and the rest of the country (including Lahore)

PS: my 'theory' is based purely on circumstantial evidence ... though I am working on something more concrete at present (and so far the trend is also very obvious)

RiazHaq: You should see this video of the Swati girl being beaten by the taliban. Then tell me why one needs to reward these animals with "economic opportunity" when a bullet in their head would do wonders to teach them how to behave.

Mr. Madani: Please dont insult Mr. Masadi by comparing him to this pschopath whom you keep trying to promote on chowk.

Re: # 10 What Masadi said is right and workable also. But army will not allow it, no body wants to cut their own perks.
Mr Altafb Bhai (MQM Supreme Leader) has almost same way of thinking.
good day.

the lessons are simple..

roses are red
violets are blue
the jihadis you created
have killed a lot of you...

Re: # 16
Shankar: "What about Lashkar-e-taiba or jamut-ul- dawa or some this-e-that who are fighting a guerrilla war in India?! Are they reconcilable? if they promise not to kill Americans & Pakistanis, should they be killed."

I think it's in Pakistan's own best interest to stop all terror outfits that get in the way of Pakistan's political stability, regional peace and economic progress. But, as a practical step to make it happen, the world must in parallel ensure that the underlying causes are addressed to give people hope, be it lack of economic opportunity, military repression and human rights abuses in Kashmir, or serious pursuit of resolution of regional and international disputes. Merely treating the symptoms without attempts at curing the underlying disease will have only short term results.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Mr Haq,

What about Lashkar-e-taiba or jamut-ul- dawa or some this-e-that who are fighting a guerrilla war in India?! Are they reconcilable? if they promise not to kill Americans & Pakistanis, should they be killed.

Pakistan will not be allowed to hostage the Kashmir issue.That's a non starter. It has already been made very clear to the US , by India & they have recognized that.

Either you get rid of them or live in reality---this war to bleed India is a failed war. At least that is being recognized in many in the Pakistani English press.

Re: # 14

SPY: "they also would be convinced / prevented from attacking any non-Paksitani targets such as in India and Afghanistan."

Yes. Reform means reform...they must get out of terrorism as a way of life and helped to find a positive way to contribute to Afghan and Pakistani society.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 13 Riaz:

Your response is fine, but you remain silent on the statement "they also would be convinced / prevented from attacking any non-Paksitani targets such as in India and Afghanistan."

Your neighbours are more interested in getting to know in black and white, the full intentions and its implications. Otherwise you are playing the same old double game, of saving the "strategic assets/interests" and resort to "bleeding the neighbour" after dousing the in-house fire.

Re: # 12
SPY: "How about the reconcilable Talibans.."

Taliban are a local phenomenon in Afghanistan and Pakistan and they have local roots in the tribal areas along the border. So anyone who wants to end terror has to deal with them in a way to end terror.

As has been repeatedly and rightly said by many sane Americans like former President Clinton and journalist Fareed Zakaria, you can not kill or jail every terrorist. You have to try and reform some of them while killing those who can not be reformed.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 2 Riaz: "A careful approach will help separate those who are reconcilable from those who must be defeated."

I guess you meant that talibans causing attacks in Pakistan need to be defeated. Ok...Good for Pakistan.

How about the reconcilable Talibans - I assume they also would be convinced / prevented from attacking any non-Paksitani targets such as in India and Afghanistan. That was the main purpose of creation of Talians/LeT, and Pakistan would stop meddling in the affairs of its neighbours.

Re: # 8 Masadi:

Impressive...

Pakistan finds itself in a mess as it looks at everything through the India prism. The govt, army and general population are more interested in playing a zero sum game with India.

Making peace deal with India in earnest sense and actually following it, would automatically solve many of the problems for Pakistan as well as give them enough opportunity to handle the real internal issues effectively.

Re: # 8; masadi

that's not bad sir ... I am impressed

and yes, the mullah needs to be put back in his place

see ... this is your second post I have agreed with unconditionally ... you never know, we may well think alike without actually knowing it!

Re: # 8

US is indeed part of the problem that keeps on propping army (and hence Jehadi-kuttas) in Pakistan.

But now that these Jehadi-Kuttas are soon going to do something "magnificient" on US soil , US is going to get the pay back of their life time!!

Good for these rascal Pentagon Generals and other arms-Elites who are getting kickbacks and percentage cut out of "aids" pilfered out of common US taxpayers.

The first step towards weaning ourselves off America is to disband the officers corps of the Pakistan Army, second is to make peace with India with or without Kashmir being settled, unconditionally, the third is to form economic/defense alliances with Iran, China, Russia, India for regional security and peace, and the fourth is to grant regional autonomy under a weak federal backbone to the various provinces and have affirmative action programs on those that have been neglected. The fifth is to crackdown on the CIA in Pakistan and that involves financial scrutiny, closing down some newspapers and tv channels that are financed by them and so on and so forth....It is very easy to recognize where are problems are coming from (USA) and how they are translated for oppression of the nation (through the Pakistan Army), in order to neutralize this influence and enhance democracy we need to remove the feeding tubes that make these parasites grow fat on the blood of the people of Pakistan.....

TNITC masadi

Ather:
You are right... the Punjab IG and Interior Minister must resign for the two attacks in Lahore. However, I disagree with your comments about tribal society being brothers. Unlike Afghan Taliban, the Pakistani Taliban are neither a religious nor patriotic movement. They take their orders from Al-Qaeda members who fled from Afghanistan in 2002. Under the garb of Shariah, they want to take over the Pakistani state and export global terrorism.

However, since December 2007 the Pakistani Taliban (and their Al-Qaeda masterminds) have suffered enormous losses. They are being attacked by US drones from the west... and by Pakistan Army and local tribes from the east. The Mumbai attacks provided Al-Qaeda with an opportunity to turn this into an India-Pakistan conflict... but Pakistan did not move troops from western border. The Al-Qaeda strategy failed.

The recent deal between Sufi Mohammad and NWFP govt in Swat has also irritated Al-Qaeda because it would prefer to deal with a militant like Fazlullah... than a scholar like Sufi Mohammad whom they cannot control.

Having failed to win militarily in Swat, Bajaur, Mohmand and Waziristan... the Pakistani Taliban are now trying to look for soft targets like Police trainees and cricketers. Any change in strategy at this point will hurt Pakistan and strengthen the Taliban.

Re: # 5
this is not a typical law and order problem... or a train accident... even if your entire police department resigns - so what?...

Worse is no-one has got the guts to take responsibility and resign. On the contrary, the authorities are shamelessly celebrating over the fact that they were able to seize control in nine hours.What do you expect from this mindset and attitude?