The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition

DM gujjus do this kinda thing..e.g. nagar brahmins formally change caste to vania (bania) so that they can cross ocean for trading which was a nono for brahmins.

eklavya yar, you have presented a plausible methodology. as we have seen from current financial crisis, several ducks need to get lined-up. during this period of imami spread, there was also gain of temporal power of incoming muslim armed men. the military rout was imo very fantastic! indians were simply an incompetent military power.

when such a rout happens, and the new emperor imposes a khutba to caliph (or shia equivaelent) every friday, it would be a surprise if many dependent would not convert.

anyways, coming back to ducks-lining..you have not established any connection between the temporal imperialist and the sufi. imam of persia to who sent these sufis did not spread his empire in india. so what is the connection!

kaal bhai, after accusing murad of using faith to interpret history, you have gone on to do the same.
... and therein lies the irony :)

Eklavya:

I don't think it advances dialogue or discussion to dismiss Sattarbhai's questions. We are all nicks here, would it be okay if sattar bhai posed his questions as om_prakash?

The point is that while what you say would explain some activities, it does not necessarily follow that all psosleytising activities were a result of trickery. One could argue that some of it could be because of various other push and pull factors. Taking two extremes, a community, such as rajputs deciding to change sides because they found some tangible advantages in doing so or when a Hindu biradri banished one of their own for not following the caste rules. Since you are talking about Jinnah, I read somewhere that his grandfather faced excommunication because he was forced under economic circumstances to trade in a commodity not acceptable to his caste community, and was therefore forced to switch to Islam.

sattar bhai, again, nothing in that recounting of events was addressed to any Muslim of any brand. We are wasting each others' time now. Best.

kaal bhai, neither faith nor cynicism - just musings.
But then again, I am not as paranoid as you are.

Your story is very convincing - to those who already believe it. And that's not a bad start after all!

Although I have not written as much yet as I would like to about Mr Jinnah's religious background, the main part of the story has been told.

If ANY Indic person here has any doubt about this being a story of crafty Muslims actively manipulating ignorant Hindus into the fold of Islam, please ask, and I will do my best to explain why I hold the view I do.

(One cannot hope to convince EVERYONE, but if we are reasonable, most of us should broadly agree.)

Sattar bhai, there is nothing to think about. None of that was meant for a believer at all. I am glad you combine faith with cyncism. :)

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If ANY non-believer has a question, I would gladly answer to the best of my ability.

kaal,

Having read your scathing criticism of murad, I was expecting something more concrete. So far you seem to have connected a few dots on whims and offered some half-baked ideas.

Your view, if and when presented in full, would be one of many possible views. There may be some truth to what you say, but perhaps not enough to explain what you are trying to explain … unless all other competing views are rejected … on basis of your faith.

Now, there is nothing wrong with faith and interpreting history on its basis. So tell me again - what is your issue with murad … ?!

Enough sophistry - it has been a futile effort so far. Time to move on …

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Here’s another way of looking at things …

I suspect that like a romantic faithful, your are guarding a value system that has outlived its usefulness. A system not designed to meet its adherents’ basic needs is bound to run into a dead end. Yours has. You have. But take heart, you are not alone. The world is full of miserable bastards …

… Urstruly here is another one, trapped in the same web, bound to go out with a thud. He, also being a hopeless romantic, too is chasing a system that has outlived its usefulness. Like you, he too is facing a brick wall. His last option now is to storm the city and force the people on the blade of the sword.

’Good going, little genius, this is working like a charm’ - I muse cynically.

The resulting backlash, eventually there would be one, would deal Urstruly’s agenda a series of setbacks, each more severe, more lasting, than the one before.

Soon it would be your turn to scream “death or victory�, grab a dagger, and charge up the hill (don’t forget the dhoti, or it would be more funny than tragic). Thud. Your end would be the same as Urstruly’s - not pretty. It’s over, baby. At a distance somewhere someone is tolling a bell.

When all is said and done, don’t be surprised if from the battlefield littered with rubble, smoke, and pile of shit and dead bodies, yours and Urstruly’s, rises a swarm of sufis … smiling madmen, whirling darveshes, chanting hymns to bhagwan, allah, and an assortment of pagan deities no one has heard of.

… an ecstatic murad baig, high on hashish, dressed in colorful clothes, tolling a bell … that may be the last sight you’ll see as you slip into permanent oblivion …

… just a little something to think about …

#447 muradbaig

[I dont believe in omens. I believe that one should TRY to stick to the facts one can observe and measure.]

Murad Baig,

So you like to stick to facts? That's wonderful.

Okay, it is a FACT that Muslims built mosques in Hindu holy places like Benaras and Kashi and Vrindavan, sometimes right next to the holiest of holy Hindu sites, to the utter misery and despair of the Hindu population.

Do you think these mosques should be destroyed?

And another question. Do you think Mecca and Medina should be off limits to non-Muslims? Should there be temples , churches etc. in Mecca and Medina?

Re: # 441
I dont believe in omens. I believe that one should TRY to stick to the facts one can observe and measure. I don't also believe in myths except that the core ideas may have been based on historic events that were elaborated and enlarged by village storytellers, bards and others over time.

Ayodyya IS a myth. What is the evidence that the events of the Ramayana took place within the confines of British India? It could have been in central Asia if Kaikeya was the daughter of the king of the Caucasus.

The Ayodhya near Faizabad in UP where Tulsidas wrote the lyrical Ramacharitramanas did not exist in the time of Buddha and was called Saketa and then Awadh.

Publius
I was not being dismissive. In fact I pass no value judgement whatsoever about this. What is curious though is that long after the East India Company departed and the fear of punishment by a temporal power is no longer there, the superstition continues. Tells you how powerful the fear was to begin with that it lingers even when there has been no reason for it to do so.

Re #441 I don't think that we should dismiss a cultural memory as inauthentic on the mere possibility that a particular political conflict could have strengthened it, at least in part because the political conflict could itself be a result of or be influenced by that memory.

Ayodhya can be seen less a memory creating event and more as an expression of a pre existing memory. Certainly the memory of muslim destruction of Hindu temples precedes Ayodhya movement.

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Secondly the way jang described the creation of a memory is not an amplification but a discovery of a pattern that was present but not visible earlier.

But it isn't even necessary that that was how it came about. We know that there was Hindu slavery , destruction of Hindu temples etc during muslim times and these events were public enough to think that memory was created in an organic and widespread way right then.

I remember , for instance, an explanation offered by Konraad Est about why Hindu marriage became a night time affair( apparently to avoid marauding muslim noblemen who liked to kidnap and rape brides when marriages happened during the day).

If that explanation is true and if such a thing forced a change in the very way a Hindu marriage was conducted, it would be easy to see how it could create memories.

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As long as a cultural memory fulfills two criterion i.e it is widespread and has some level of congruence with known historical facts it should be patiently investigated as a clue to history.

It can be deemed in authentic ,if and only if , it can be shown through historical proof that it was created at a given time in history without any reasonable basis or underlying facts.

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muradbaig's # 439 does not explicitly answer whether he considers muhammad to be a pacifist or not but the facts he provided ( which are commonly available) are of course proof that he was not.

That he allegedly was seeking social justice, emancipation of women is completely irrelevant. Pacifism pertains to the use of violence not (allegedly)having a good moral philosophy. Muhammad frequently used violence and was an aggressive warrior, that is enough to declare him a non pacificst. It is an insult to real pacifists like Gandhi and Mahavir to call him such.

As to the assertion of universal brotherhood about Muhammad's message, the quran so clearly has hatred for unbelievers, that murad's assertions can only be termed as a shameful lie.

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I am still waiting for an explanation of # 407 from murad baig.

omp ayodhya was indeed politically brilliant.

From a tactical point of view the most deadly strategy would be:

(1) To construct, celebrate, progapagate one's own 'collective memory.' Such as Muhammad was a pacifist. Islamic rulers were gentle, nice, and all inclusive.

(2) To distort other people's collective memory. Sharacharya was a non-pacifist/even violent intolerant man who promoted case. Non-Jains and non-Buddhists in India went around massacring Jains and Buddhists.

(3) To construct memories for them that they may not have: Authentic Indic cultural memory is cotton balls blowing in front of your house being a bad omen, and as such has no value.

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Again, we must reject this approach, and replce it with an objective study of past, including investigating wherever possible our own and even other people's collective cultural memories.

Humsab ji, I will put it all together and post it to my ilog probably later tonight. Am travelling right now. Best.

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"I'd say cotton balls blowing in front of your house being a bad omen is what I would call an authentic cultural memory."

As far as I know that is not authentic Indic cultural memory.

Nobody knows the art and science of "reviving, amplifing, coloring by political ambitions" cultural memory better than do Muslims. Any half serious study of their normal day-to-day collective discourse would estalish that.