The Gentle Power of the Sufi Tradition

Cool!

So now the Pakistani's can declare Sufi's non Muslim too.

Regards,


Faruk

sufism is islamic spirituality. non-islamic spiritual movements are not sufism. suf means wool in arabic.
arabic term is tasawwuf.

read hazrat ali hijwiri data ganj bakhsh lahori's kashf al mahjoob.

Haven't read baig bhai's article but is he saying that sufism teaches worshipping 'Muslim saints'?

In that case, it surely ain't Islam, whatever else it may be.

Read the article.

Either one makes Sufism's relationship with Islam logically clear and evident - as Naqsh bhai does - or it is little more than a membership management racket for Islam and Muslims.

I am not surprised Murad bhai carries forward the racket.

Naqsh,

"...non-islamic spiritual movements are not sufism ..."

Thanks for casting the first stone … by drawing a line in sand and declaring who is and who is not a sufi. Of course, you are the oracle of spirituality … with trademarks, patents, and copyrights …

Now Urstruly will claim that sufism is not Islam and that sufis should be hanged, sorta like Al-Halaj getting what he deserved.

Question to Murad Ji or any other knowledgeable Muslim

Murad ji argues that sufis/sophis "respected the spritual core of Islamic beliefs".

What was this spiritual core of Islamic beliefs without this sophism/sufism?

What 'spiritual' ideas did Islam have that sophis 'respected'?

The case this article makes can be turned on its head (which probably was closer to reality, in any case). So some clarifications will be greatly in order.

Murad ji !
You said "how it defined many devotional Bhakti faiths." Now, this is wrong. Bhakti faiths were already well developed even before Islam appeared on the scene. Vaishnava Bhakti Scriptures and "Narada Sutra" , "Bhagvata Purana" etc. where the account of various Bhaktas is given has nothing to do with sufism. Even the Shaiva Bhakti tradition has NOTHING to do with Islam . On the other hand , Sufism arose from the influence of Bhakti tradition on Islam and Sufism was praticed as a reverse-taquiyya by most 'muslims' who never wanted to be a full fledged Sunni and showed that there is a path towards God even without Sunnah. Sufis was in all probability a result of some of the Hindu sect followers or Vaishnava Maths who were forced to convert in order to survive and they transformed the Islam for ever by Hinduiszing-Islam. Sufism is the result of movement of Hindu-Islam which showed the true path towards Allah without keeping an obsession for Mohammad.

Sufism, epecially of non-Darbari type showed that Shariah and Sunnah are dispensible in the path to Allah. However, some Sufi sects compromised on this and aligned themselves with the political Ulemas and Qazis and paid most of the time lip service to these Qazis and Ulemas in order to avoid confrontation.

Then, the reference of the `Land of the Great Sophy’ does not refer to 'Sophist' but refers to 'Sophia' the Goddess of Knowledge - Saraswati!!

Re: # 1

now Pakistan can accept the call of "Sufi" Mohammad !!

Cool!!

laddu ji, unIslamic sophism, extant before Islam, in Persia or wherever, might have shared some ideas with the Indian thought. The concept of merging with the Divine was an old Indian idea and might even have been more widespread in some form.

Most likely, these unIslamic people in Persia simply read or were forced to read the shahada and became "Muslims". Given where Indian philosophy was in its stage of development, these sophis influencing Indian philosophy seems like a ridiculous assertion to me, at least. Same with assertion about bhakti. But if murad bhai has any evidence to back up his reverse-world interpretations, he should share.

His arguments remind me of his brilliant brainwave that Indians began to worship the cow as a way to harrass and starve invading Muslims to death.

Eklavya ji,

What was the dominant religion in Persia before Islami invasion??

It was Parsism ( instead of calling it Zoaroastrainism - which semitizes it as a personal cult of Zoroaster). And Parsis worshipped Aryan deities like Mitra, Yama, Indra etc. and performed Yjnas or fire oblations to them. Their mysticism was similar to Hindu mysticism.

So the Parsis shared almost similar spiritual traditions with Vedic Aryas.

Even ancient Sumerian religion has references to Ram and Laxman. And you missed the stature of Vishnu on one of the domes of Masshad Masjid in Persia!!

These regions shared a lot of spiritual traditions with the Hindus of Bharat Desh.

Murad Sahib, well researched and written, though it could have been beefed up with some more personal experiences?

Thursdays to Mizamuddin Bastee area is a good idea, but do enter from the Link Road Crematorium side (just before the IOC CoCo pump there is a turn-off to the left . . . and ample parking available once inside.

You would see how the "gentle power of the Sufi tradition", in this place atleast, has been hijacked. Totally.

And Ajmer? What's left of Sufi Traditions there, in your opinion?

+++

Infact, early Persian Sufism is considered as spiritualism of Parsism's 'revenge' upon imposition of Arabian Imperialism.

It is also precisely my point about indian sufism as a 'revenge' by hinduism on political Islam and imposition of their cult on various hindu bhakti traditions.

The similiarities between Persian sufism and Hindu sufism as spiritual 'revenge' are too evident.

"This was Persia's revenge for the humiliating defeat she suffered at the hands of the Arabs and the consequent imposition of the Arabic language for all religious and juridical purposes. We might go on to say that Persia's revenge for the imposition of Islam and of the Arabic Qoran was her bid for the utter transformation of the religious outlook of all the Islamic peoples by the dissemination of the Sufi creed and the creation of a body of mystical poetry which is almost as widely known as the Qoran itself. The combination in Sufism of mystical love and passion with a daring challenge to all forms of rigid and hypocritical formalism has had a bewitching and breath-taking effect on successive Moslem generations in all countries, an effect repeated in all those non-Moslem milieux, European or Asiatic, where these doctrines, often interpreted by the most ravishingly beautiful poetry, have been discovered. In this way Persia has conquered a spiritual domain far more extensive than any won by the arms of Cyrus and Darius, and one which is still far form being a thing of the past. "

There are many things that can be debated, but it can be said with absolute certainty that Islam and Sufism have nothing to do with each other. While people try to show it as such - for reasons that have to do with culture and tradition, the efforts are futile - like putting a square peg in a round hole. Just one look at sufism's core principles, and mo's words and actions would be enough to convince anyone of this fact - anyone, that is, who is not trying desperately to BELONG to the fold of islam for various reasons.

On this point, again, Urstruly is absolutely correct. The two have absolutely nothing in common - no dhimmis or beheadings or raping slaves or keeping slaves in Sufism.

The very best features of Sufism - the ones that intellectuals find endearing - for example the poems and sayings of Rumi - are lifted straight off of Hindu philosophical texts. And it is no surprise - Rumi was born in Afghanistan (which was 100% Hindu, and then almost 100% Buddhist prior to Rumi's birth), in the kingdom of Khorasan. The two major influences in his life - his father, who was a mystic, and the poet Attar, were both from Khorasan (Attar for example travelled extensively through India).

Take this poem from Rumi, for example:

Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!

That's Hindu philosophy 101. And TOTALLY and RADICALLY different from the Abrahamic religions.

Sorry, naqshbandi, sattar, murad etc. That's just how it is. Murad - you are an Islamist, not a sufi. Sattar - I am rooting for your sect, or maybe the sufis, to substitute islam in this world. Naqshbandi - you are not a sufi, but a closet Islamist - sorry - your tendencies are islamic.

Re: # 11

Yes all spiritual traditions have suffered erosion as well as being hijacked. Regardless of Islamic and other sources history is history and Alexander's scholars cannot be dismissed either. The link with `souf' a single piece of white woolen cloth has been mentioned in my article. Zoroasterian faith may have been the main religion in the 7th century AD and was undoubtedly in full strength at the time of Cyrus and Darius but the Sufi spiritual idea MAY have predated it.

The Indian Bhakti faiths really developed after the 5th Century AD and Vaishnava bhakti ideas after Ramanuja in the 12th century so the ideas of other spiritual ideas influencintg Hinduism cannot be ruled out even if there is no definite confirmations. Most spiritual ideas were spread by the teachings of wandering preachers of which there are not many documented records.

I like to think of sufism as a great spiritual idea and urge all of you to not be too possessive about it. If it is found at hazrat Nizammuddin or at Ajmer Sharif it may have an Islamic colour but that does not make it exclusively Islamic.

Although many Sufi saints are venerated by Muslims, Hindus and others I do not think that the veneration of saints is required of Sufis. As at all religious places the keepers of holy places start their own traditions to attract followers and generous donations that make them rich and powerful that may have nothing spiritual about them.

The music, and dance of the whirling dervishes is widely practiced as a celebration of the great cosmic energy. Many orthodox religions abhorred music and dance wanting to keep religion somber and serious but these too were add on's of later times and not the teaching of the founders.

What I would commend to all of you was that the Sufis emphasised love, compassion and human under standing that is so hard to find in these troubled times.

Murad ji, alexander never really entered India.

And you are familiar with Alexander's interactions with Pakistani philosophers?

What do Alexander's historians say that your cloth wearers in Persia had that wasn't in India, in terms of ideas, then?

---------------

Given that sufi 'philosophy' remains rather childish and amateurish even today, what stops you from assuming (which would be more logical) that those cloth wearers Alexander presumably saw weren't influenced by Indian (Pakistani) philosophers, instead of vice versa?

#14 muradbaig

[The Indian Bhakti faiths really developed after the 5th Century AD and Vaishnava bhakti ideas after Ramanuja in the 12th century so the ideas of other spiritual ideas influencintg Hinduism cannot be ruled out even if there is no definite confirmations. ]

A little study would tell you that the idea contained in :

Why should I seek? I am the same as
He. His essence speaks through me.
I have been looking for myself!

is 100% Hindu philosophy that predates the Bhakti movement by a couple of thousand years at least. And the Bhakti movement is the expression of Bhakti Yoga - which is ONE of the many paths to Nirvana that has been part and parcel of Hindu philosophy LONG BEFORE the advent of the Bhakti movement - the suggestions of external religions influencing the Bhakti movement is foolhardy at best.