Urban Middle Class’s Steady Descent Into Conservatism and Religious Right

Re: # 269
Yes that miight be the right idea. but here is another issue. Whenever there is some development towards that some thing takes place which India interprets as "back stabing" and pakistani public interprets it as another grand conspiracy to defame pakistan.
Mumbai attacks happened at a very wrong time and thwarted all peace efforts. In my opinion they were done by non state actors such as taliban but according to indian media it was ISI and according to pakistani media it was RAW with the aim of defaming Pakistan.
Attacks such as that create bad blood and successfully paint the peace makers as "un patriotic" or sell outs.

#268: You are v right. Past history and continued suspicion add fuel to the fire. The problem is there are so many accusations flying about it is difficult to get an objective opinion on what's actually going on. All that the mindset requires to go over the edge is the belief that India has successfully 'encircled' them with its Afghanistan policy. If India is smart, it will try to increase transparency of its ops in Afghanistan to show that it is innocent in character. Or propose joint dev projects with Pakistan so that the thinking shifts to non-zero sum thinking rather than as a zero sum game at present.

Re: # 267
Actually one of the problems is the history of both wars as well as proxy wars between the two countries. this also gives a "legitimacy' to claims of foreign involvement to the conspiracy theorists. Whenever you question banality of absurd theories (particualrly regarding involvement of Indian agency behind Mumbai attacks!!!!), these theorists cite historical aggressions. According to their strange logic both west(9/11) and india (26/11) themselves organized the attacks to have sellable justification for war against Pakistan!!!!!Moreover as a society pakistan has ventured into so much delusional state that terror attacks which occur in pakistan as well as india, are blamed to grand conspiracy of CIA and RAW. Conspiracy theorists exist every where in the world but the crucial difference in Muslim world is that here conspiracy theory is a MAINSTREAM opinion rather than a far right opinion!!!

#266: What is perhaps ironic is that most of my article is a distillation of what has been said and is being said by Pakistani journalists and writers. Perhaps the only thing I can add to this is that as an Indian and a neighbour I have a stake in how Pakistan functions and thus an opinion.

What triggered my writing is the continuing aftermath of 26/11. The reactions to this, oscilating between denial and reluctant acceptance even after substantive proof (part provided by Pak media) and the recent triumphant acquittal of Hafiz Saeed after a non show by the prosecution, are perceived by Indians as a deep ambivalence that still seems to exists within Pakistan on the good militant / bad militant question.

While India is very happy at the way the Pak army is going after the Taliban, the lingering question within India is, will this same army similarly take on and eliminate the LeT, the JeM, the HuM and other organizations which primarily target India or will it continue to turn a blind eye to them. In fact the bigger fear in India is that due to its action against the Taliban and the ensuing approval of the US, the establishment might try to go easy on the 'non-state' actors on the Eastern front.

At least that is the fear and the perception.

Re: # 265 yes both are on the same theme. Its interesting that Indians since they are witnessing from outside often have a correct diagnosis of the problem. Moreover at times people like me are even called closet indians or an indian "asset" because I am mirroring their point of view!!!All I am pointing is the need for serious introspection and making people realize that true spirit of nationalism requires that you correct your own faults rather than blaming each and every thing to external world.

#263: If liberals are not coming out openly with their opposition this is bad news. Everywhere there is the attempt to label liberals as anti-X where X could be a religion, an ethical principle or a community. Thus in India, the right call liberals as 'pseudo secular'.

#264: Glad you liked my article. I was interested to note that your own article "Conspiracy theories, patriotism and religion" and my own had much in common. Since your article is based on first hand experience it is all the more compelling. And more than a little worrying.

Thanks

Re: # 262
Moreover your observation about Left in general is also accurate. This has been a mark of marxists in particular who interpret everything through deterministic materialistic dialectic framework. They would twist facts to make them sound consistent with the doctrine. Instead of a tool of analysis for many hardcore left wingers, marxism is like a religon.
And I have really liked your article "Can Pakistan unplug itself from the Matrix?"

Re: # 262
thanks for liking the article
In my discussions mostly i have heard ultra nationalist or "state of denial" opinion, where public is refusing to beleive that militancy in pakistan is home grown.
Liberal opinion is mostly kept private or just shared with like minded. its seldom debated due to fear of branding as "unpatriotic" by people. In media its restricted to English both in print and electronic. This unfortunately streghthens the conservative claims that liberals are just pro western bunch.
Yes in Pakistan education played a crucial role in 1980s under Zia. Moreover, media in those days was completely state controlled and laid the basis for subsequent "independent" media. When private channels came into existence, they had to cater to the likes of an urban middle class which was already conservative. Consequently they have tried to devise programs which would appeal to their tastes. consequently this non sense conspiracy theory culture has strengthened.

Raza: Thanks for a very interesting article.

In your interactions with people, middle class or otherwise as well as your observations of the media, do you find largely conservative voices or do you find strong 'liberal' segments as well?

I was also wondering whether this conservatism could in part be because even the formal education system since the late 70s (according to some studies) has been more religiously slanted and this may have contributed to a mindset.

Capturing educational institutions is an old trick since it can influence generations. In India, the NDA under Murli Manohar Joshi tried to do it clumsily, the attempt was found out and it was thankfully stopped. That is actually ironic because the people protesting the most about it were the left who also have a track record of reinventing history to fit their ideological model of class conflict.

Re: # 194 Riaz: "there is no all-Indian Hindu identity".

What are you trying to say.....There is an Indian identity of the peopel living in the Indian sub-continent which is more than 3000 years old dating back to the Greek, Persian and Indus valley civilizations. The name India and Indus come from that identity. Unfortunately you seem to have forgotten or want to forget that as it reminds of you past.

Re: # 258 Ok I am wrong at every level. Totally wrong and you are 100% right.
Thanks a lot for your nice, polite and humble comments.
Lets not discuss this any further you are way too good for a low IQ person like me.

Re: # 258 Ok I am wrong at every level. Totally wrong and you are 100% right.
Thanks a lot for your nice, polite and humble comments.
Lets not discuss this any further you are way too good for a low IQ person like me.

"Ironically this class has always been in power and has grown substantially richer since the late 1990s. If there are “gaps’ in the society, at least urban middle class does not face them the way impoverished masses are facing them."

The quote above from your article pretty much summarizes what you think of this class. That they've had too much influence, they have it too good, and they're over-represented. Ask any economist if the Pakistani middle class has it good. And ask any politician how much influence the middle class has on the national stage. I think you'd find yourself to be wrong on every level.

Ilogs are not articles that are being posted on the main page...they are meant to be comments and rough ideas. I am not pretending to try to educate an entire class of people...I am pretty straight-forward about my disdain and dislike for the Kemalists of Pakistan.....frankly I have no hesitation in openly abusing them either on the net or in person...something I thoroughly enjoy doing. You on the other hand are trying to come across as a scholar who is analyzing and trying to persuade people. However, your article clearly won't win any friends in the middle and lower classes because of the way you have painted them. You obviously won't convince any upper class conservative. The only people you will be speaking to are liberal upper class and foreigners....it doesn't really serve your purpose to preach to the choir does it?

"Majority of people belonging to urban middle class, I have talked to, have been in this strange state of denial where there have until very recent past refused to admit that Islamic militants were behind anything."

According to you, you've taken a statistical sample that reveals "...this strange state of denial where there have until very recent past refused to admit..."

Please explain how you can say this about the entire middle class.

"Pakistan army which draws its rank officers from the middle class was also agitated and finally intervened."

Please explain the purpose of throwing the middle class into this argument here. Since you've mentioned the middle class and "this lot" so many times....one has to conclude that your point revolved around the fact that it is the middle class that forms the army.

Also....both of these above quotes simply demonstrate that you have a beef with the entire middle class. I assume you don't mention the lower class since they're not even worthy that much.

Re: # 255
I never tried to say all the middle class is one organism who collectively thinks like a person. I merely said that it has natural tendency towards conservative side. Moreover I have tried to give reasons that as to why this tendency has increased. Regarding arrogance, well once again read your own interacts which are full of abusive language. people who differ from you are morons and A holes. Whats is more arrogant this article or your writings. In social sciences particualrly evenit comes to interpreting behaviour of a group of people, no one can be 100% right or wrong. We can only talk about tendencies and introspect. Compared to me, your own I logs are venomous and display complete arrogance as if only you know 100% truth. Thats it. baqi right now you are angry and want to dish it out so much so that you start taking on Riaz Haq thinking that it is me!!!! You write I logs which start with reference to this article and use all kinds of branding. Compared to me you are far more insulting and reek of arrogance. And yes this is the last time I am communicating with you on chowk. Just compare our interacts, i have not been rude or insulting to you. Insulting behaviour, usage of words like you are totally wrong or you are moron, display far more arrogance than what i wrote.
Good luck and keep up the good work. You do write well and partly I do agree with some of your I logs.

I've read your article Reza and you should take a step back and read it again yourself. Other than the obvious poor choice of words which I have already pointed out, your underlying thought process is also flawed. You are talking about a middle class that likely constitutes over 40 million people....yet you are talking about them as if they are one monolithic brainless group which the liberal class didn't handle well enough. When you're talking about that many people....its ridiculous to suggest that MOST of them feel the way they do as a reaction to something or another rather than due to an actual belief that they hold to be true. You stretch their position by saying that they are apologizing for the Taliban, in a state of denial, and so on as if they're following something on a reactionary basis that lacks logic and now they're cornered and need education to get them out. According to you....all it takes is for the "educated" liberals such as yourself to correct them from their downwards descent. This article ain't right on any level man....try again and try not to be so arrogant next time.