Karachi Could Bleed To Pakistan's Death

Re: # 637 Posted by hamidm2 on May 6, 2009 7:31:44 am

hamid mian,

US could use pakis in the US and send them as “peace corps ambassodors� and provide these pakis with ample training of how to become effective ambassodors. They could develop several teams of varied paki ethnic background, but they should not be given money authority whatsoever. Only a “white man� should be project managers, and tough new laws should be passed specifically for these returning pakis. Once the new team of pakis return they should be provided with a higher than average standard of living, much more than the current crop of GHQ punjoos and the cabal of ruling thugs enjoy.

Frankly, this will kill two birds with one stone. Most paki cab drivers will return on their new job assignments. What say you?

Re: # 644

You are absolutely ignorant of the realities on the ground in Pakistan. You are simply repeating the right-wing imperialist rhetoric in America that demands compliance and ends up losing in the end...there have been many examples in history of rulers/politicians overthrown by people for being too compliant to American demands.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 636

No, sir, it is not political suicide. It is just about what a country should expect in return of money spent. The US should learn how to handle muslim political leaders effectively, and must not cow in to this type of political blackmail from the political leaders of the muslim world. US could learn from KSA and Iran, regarding effective political leadership, and how these political leaders get obedience from their protégé’s in Iraq, Lebanon, Pakistan, or wherever.

If paki politicians can’t turn the tide of anti-american rhetoric permeating their society, then they are lousy politicians to begin with.

Re: # 640: masadi "This only buys them time since they might be able to fool the people's minds but their hurting bodies cannot be fooled by symbols and images..."

I agree. A well-known American marketing expert and textbook author Phil Kotler who is considered an expert on PR and brand management says that the tarnished US image can not be restored by PR alone. It requires real policy shifts. The Obama effect will be short-lived unless he makes serious policy changes.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Correction # 639 "have the same average number of kids as middle class women"

Hamid writes "and the goddamn uaw ."

So the real auto makers the workers become god damned and the corporate CEOs that make tens of millions (part of their nasty campaign to write off taxes in hidden profits stashed away as salaries) become poor victims. You need to get your morals examined by the resident chowk shrink.

TNITC masadi

Alumni WW writes "PR alone can't fix the US image problem, it requires substantive policy changes. "

Almumni sahib, with the global cultural apparatus at their command the US elite do marvellous things with their PR campaigns, as the "invade Afghanistan to liberate women" BS. The fact is that their PR guys are better qualified than tahmed (and Fox News), they co-opt and feign 'policy change' as with the Obama messiah "change you can believe in" while keeping the underlying oppressive structure intact. This only buys them time since they might be able to fool the people's minds but their hurting bodies cannot be fooled by symbols and images....

TNITC masadi

Hamid get a goddamned education. There is no comparison between "welfare mamas" and corporate welfare. On average those 'mamas' stay on welfare only two years at pittling amounts that cannot sustain a decent lifestyle, have the same number of average kids as middle class women, while your corporate thugs not only keep asking the government for bailouts because of their greed, they "own" this debt as well another way in which they fleece the public on whose behalf the undemocratic government of the USA takes out loans to feed the corporations- the greatest proof that this goddamned US democracy business is just BUSINESS and nothing else...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 637

bubba mian,

... i also think we should impeach obama for interfering with the judiciary ..... who the heck does he think he is, giving the judge 60 days to get chrysler out of bankruptcy! .... is the white house now writing bankruptcy laws ?!!!!

bubba mian,

..... personally i am against giving any aid to pakistan - not one red cent! ...... and it is for our own good ..... it is for the same reason that i am against mailing government checks to welfare mommas ....... it is okay for the us to send food, milk, blankets and tents for the displaced people ..... but the money is all a big waste ....... besides, i am a little short now days after bailing out aig, citicorp, the auto industry and the goddamn uaw ........ obama is acting like a drunken sailor - we need to take away his credit card!

Re: # 634: "Any money paid to paki politicians should be based on how effective their political efforts are by enhancing public image of the US."

In other words, you want Pakistani politicians to commit political suicide in exchange for a few bucks of US aid? Dream on...PR alone can't fix the US image problem, it requires substantive policy changes.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 630 "pardon me, but somehow i find the whole idea of a srawny dhoti-clad hindoo in space rather ludicurous"

It's going to be a while before a dhoti finds its way into space,unless they cover one of their unmanned satellite with it. But I think the Hindutva dream is a saffron space suit with a faux dhoti to show pride in Bharat.

As to the railroad tracks, I think they'll have to use to virtual reality to think they are at RR track as the vacuum works to relieve them....it'll be a really high-tech deal....an Indian urban middle class dream.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 607 Posted by hamidm2 on May 5, 2009 5:30:42 pm

hamid mian,

it appears that ganja pehlevan and his group of punjoos are back in the “getting US aid for pakiland� game again. This time around I hope, the US puts just one stipulation “no more anti-US (negative images) sloganeering in pakiland�. Is that too much to ask of pakis who get so much financial aid?

Any money paid to paki politicians should be based on how effective their political efforts are by enhancing public image of the US.

Why don’t the US taxpayers demand some respect from the average pakis? After all with so much money being doled out to puristanis, one should expect some positive pro-American image created amongst puristanis in the US and in the land of pure.

#624 tahmed32

[sri ram krishna: another kutta from india going rabid....in angreji jabaan]

You think that you, with your low-class education have a proprietary right on angrezi - eh? The world knows you Pakis to be the pagal kuttas. I just consider you guys mangy dogs with sores all over your bodies, yapping at our heels.

#630 hamidm2

[.... you know that there are no railroad tracks in space, do you? ...... pardon me, but somehow i find the whole idea of a srawny dhoti-clad hindoo in space rather ludicurous ...]

"Scrawny dhoti-clad hindu in space" only exists in your imagination. All I see is your brothers the scrawny and emaciated talibans walking around like pests waiting to be exterminated. You should not waste these breaks between masturbating in front of the mirror thinking about space. That requires a non-Paki education. You Pakis' time would be better spent shaving your pubes and rubbing holy stones on your genitals.

"Rumours are also abuzz that if the US gets very disappointed with Pakistan, it will invite the Indian army to take part in the Afghan campaign. Sources also indicate that India is willing to send 20,000 troops into FATA."

I hope Indians are not that stupid and/or crazy to do this even if the US wants them to. India's interests are best served by doing what they are doing, i.e., build roads, schools and hospitals and earn the goodwill of Afghans. If they send soldiers there, they will lose whatever goodwill their current non-military assistance is generating for them.

Re: # 621

krishna mian,

.... you know that there are no railroad tracks in space, do you? ...... pardon me, but somehow i find the whole idea of a srawny dhoti-clad hindoo in space rather ludicurous .... cartoonish, if you ask me .... if i were you i would first try and tackle the science of indoor plumbing ... you don't want to make a mess in space, do you?

Post-Iraq, would-be militants eye Pakistan

The flow of foreign militants to Pakistan worries Western governments, which fear the south Asian country has replaced Iraq as the place to go for aspiring Islamists planning attacks on the West....Now, porous borders, corrupt officials and inventive smugglers mean a determined foreigner has little problem simply entering Pakistan, experts say...

http://blogs.reuters.com/global/2009/05/06/post-iraq-would-be-mili tants-eye-pakistan/

which beduinod red flagged the post #622?

http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Muslim_astronaut_to_blast_off_durin g_Ramadan_999.html

My financial investment plans remain unchanged, the below report notwithstanding:

WASHINGTON DIARY: Two weeks notice —Dr Manzur Ejaz
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009�5�6\story_6-5-2 009_ pg3_3
On his one-hundredth day presidential address, President Barack Obama commented that Pakistan’s civilian government is ‘fragile’ and unable to deliver any services, and hence cannot win the hearts and minds of common Pakistanis. As Obama delivered these remarks, General David Petraeus issued a thinly veiled deadline of two weeks in which Pakistan’s existence would be determined.

What can one make of these seemingly inconsistent statements?

First of all, to clarify President Obama’s statement, one should realise that he did not intend to slight the civilian government in Pakistan. The thrust of his statement was more descriptive of the lack of resources to fulfil people’s demands in Pakistan. This also implied that, given the circumstances, no Pakistani civilian government could do much for the people.

Probably, the US knows that even Nawaz Sharif cannot do much under these circumstances. Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that President Obama would have sent any anti-government messages when he had already invited President Asif Zardari for parleys.

President Obama’s statement was tailored for the domestic US audience, explaining why the Pakistani civilian government cannot deliver much in the war against the Taliban. He was preparing the US public to give more financial assistance to Pakistan if needed. US officials have also increased the frequency of their meetings with Nawaz Sharif, which are meant to make sure that he does not try to exploit the anti-US sentiment in Pakistan against the fragile present government.

In this backdrop, the US is also clear on the point that the Pakistan Army, and not the civilian government, is the one to decide about the war against the Taliban. If the army can manifest its sincerity, the US will support Pakistan’s security, integrity and viability as a country. However, if the US determines that the Pakistan Army is allegedly playing the same old duplicitous game then it will not bother about Pakistan’s security and interests.

This means that under those circumstances, the US will disregard the sovereignty of Pakistan and take steps to safeguard its own interests. This is what Gen Petraeus has indicated in his statement; that the next two weeks will determine Pakistan’s survival.

If the US concludes that the Pakistan Army is not serious in fighting the Taliban, it will send its own troops into FATA, occupy it and make it a part of the Afghan war theatre. Furthermore, some believe that the matter will not end there.

Rumours are also abuzz that if the US gets very disappointed with Pakistan, it will invite the Indian army to take part in the Afghan campaign. Sources also indicate that India is willing to send 20,000 troops into FATA. It should be kept in mind that India is already running most of Afghanistan’s electricity and other infrastructure. Therefore, by infusing a large number of troops India will enhance its prevailing influence in Afghanistan. Probably, Gen Petraeus’ two-week deadline also implies such an eventuality.

In this background, though much of this is based on rumour and speculation, the military action in Buner and Swat is crucial. Some cynical observers have already concluded that the Pakistan Army is making noise but not doing much on the ground. However, the US is portraying the new military initiative as a hopeful sign. The prevailing view in Washington is that the Pakistan Army has come to its senses and realised that, at present, the country’s existence is threatened by Taliban and not by India.

President Asif Ali Zardari will be visiting the White House by the time this column is published. However, his visit will not change much. The US will remain focused on military action, knowing fully well that the civilian government cannot deliver much in the present circumstances

Re: # 606 Hamidm ustaad

May Allah be merciful to you and your family for showing me the light! I am transferring all my retirement savings to the Defence Savings Certificates!

I will be forever grateful to you!

RiazHaq sahib #618 I think it is an important question (i.e. what Pakistanis can learn from the US). You should not wave it aside by saying you have already answered it elsewhere.

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#622 nkg

[BTW, as part of SU30 deal, Russia allowed couple of Muslas from Malaysia to go on space...Instead of carrying out any experiment ( if anything was there), that bugger was trying to observe arabic rituals on space...]

Hahahaha.... un-fcukig-believable...

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Oh, I forgot to highlight:

If realized in the stated time-frame, India will become only the fourth nation, after the USSR, USA and China, to successfully carry out manned missions indigenously.

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madrassaBrain

Sub-Saharan Africa, eh, bedouin-reject?

[Geopolitical and economic considerations during the 1960s and 1970s compelled India to initiate its own launch vehicle program.[11] During the first phase (1960s-1970s) the country successfully developed a sounding rockets program, and by the 1980s, research had yielded the Satellite Launch Vehicle-3 and the more advanced Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle (ASLV), complete with operational supporting infrastructure.[11] ISRO further applied its energies to the advancement of launch vehicle technology resulting in the creation of Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) and Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) technologies.[11]

Satellite Launch Vehicle (SLV)
Status: Decommissioned
The Satellite Launch Vehicle, usually known by its abbreviation SLV or SLV-3 was a 4-stage solid-fuel light launcher. It was intended to reach a height of 500 km and carry a payload of 40 kg.[12] Its first launch took place in 1979 with 2 more in each subsequent year, and the final launch in 1982. Only two of its four test flights were successful.[13]

Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle (ASLV)

Status: Decommissioned
The Augmented Satellite Launch Vehicle, usually known by its abbreviation ASLV was a 5-stage solid propellant rocket with the capability of placing a 150 kg satellite into LEO. This project was started by the ISRO during the early 1980s to develop technologies needed for a payload to be placed into a geostationary orbit. Its design was based on Satellite Launch Vehicle.[14] The first launch test was held in 1987, and after that 3 others followed in 1988, 1992 and 1994, out of which only 2 were successful, before it was decommissioned.[13]

Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV)
Status: Active
The Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle, usually known by its abbreviation PSLV, is an expendable launch system developed to allow India to launch its Indian Remote Sensing (IRS) satellites into sun synchronous orbits, a service that was, until the advent of the PSLV, commercially viable only from Russia. PSLV can also launch small satellites into geostationary transfer orbit (GTO). The reliability and versatility of the PSLV is proven by the fact that it has launched 30 spacecraft (14 Indian and 16 from other countries) into a variety of orbits so far.[15] In April 2008, it successfully launched 10 satellites a once, breaking a world record held by Russia.[16]

Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV)
Main article: GSLV
Status: Active
The Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle, usually known by its abbreviation GSLV, is an expendable launch system developed to enable India to launch its INSAT-type satellites into geostationary orbit and to make India less dependent on foreign rockets. At present, it is ISRO's heaviest satellite launch vehicle and is capable of putting a total payload of up to 5 tons to Low Earth Orbit.]

Re: # 608 hamidm: "It is - is there something Pakistan and Pakistanis can learn from the US? Too many Pakistanis are so busy finding fault in the US that they never have time to actively try to benefit from the US experience."

It's a very good question. I answered this question in a recent ilog titled: "Light a Candle, Do Not Curse Darkness". Please take a look at it. Feel free to leave a comment there.

You are also welcome to read a number of blog posts I have written on this subject in my personal blog. You can search for it by my name.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4 0293&sectionid=4&issueid=104&Itemid=1

madrassaAlumnus,


This is a better report:


Breakthrough for GTRE scientists – develop marine version of the Kaveri engine news


Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment, part of the chain of laboratories operating under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), has achieved a significant breakthrough by developing a modified marine version of the Kaveri engine, which it has been developing for the country's Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) programme.

The marine version is a spin-off, which is capable of generating shaft power for Indian naval ships. Using the Kaveri engine core, GTRE scientists have added low pressure compressor and turbine as a gas generator and designed a free power turbine to generate shaft power.

The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT), as it has been named, has been transported to the naval dockyard at Vishakhapatnam and installed on the marine gas turbine test-bed. This is an Indian Navy facility, capable of testing gas turbines of up to 25 MW of shaft power through a reduction gearbox and a water brake dynamometer.

The Indian Navy has been involved in the development of the engine and has participated in the test phase.


The engine has been tested to its potential of 12 MW at ISA SL 35°C condition, which is the requirement of the Indian Navy to propel the Rajput class of ships. The engine has also been demonstrated before the prime minister, Dr Manmohan Singh.

With this development, India becomes self-reliant in the technology of gas turbines for ship propulsion, and puts the country in the same league of nations as the USA, Russia, UK and Ukraine, who posses the capability to design and manufacture marine gas turbine engines.

madrassaAlumnus

I realize that in Pakiworld - in the world of alternate reality, India is less developed than sub-Saharan Africa. So I'll try to send more educational material for your madrassa-brain to try and absorb.

madrassaAlumnus

FYI

The Gas Turbine Research Establishment, Bangalore of Defence Research and Development Organisation which has been indigenously developing Kaveri engine for propelling the Indian Light Combat Aircraft (Tejas), has now come up with a modified marine version, as a spin off during research, to develop shaft power for propelling Indian Naval ship.

Using the core of the Kaveri engine, the scientists of GTRE have added Low Pressure Compressor & Turbine as a gas generator and designed a Free Power Turbine to generate shaft Power for the maritime application. The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) as it has been named has been transported to Naval Dock Yard, Vishakapatnam and installed on to the Marine Gas Turbine test bed which is an Indian Navy Facility capable of testing the Gas Turbines upto 25 MW of shaft power through a reduction gearbox and a water brake dynamometer.

The Indian Navy has been involved in the development of the engine and participated and supporting the testing phase.

The engine has been tested to its potential of 12 MW at ISA SL 35°C condition which is the requirement of Indian Navy for propelling the SNF (Rajput) class of ships. This engine has been demonstrated to the Prime Minister Dr Manmohan Singh and others including the Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri Shri M. Natarajan, Vice Admiral B.S.Randhawa, Dr. D.Banerjee, CC (R&D).

With this development, India will become self-reliant in the technology of gas turbines for ship propulsion. This will put India in the elite club of Marine Gas Turbine designers e.g., USA, Russia, UK and Ukraine.

madrassaAlumnus

FYI

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaveri_Engine

The GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri is a low-bypass-ratio afterburning turbofan being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the DRDO in Bangalore, India. An indigenous Indian design, the Kaveri was intended to power production models of the HAL Tejas fighter, originally called the "Light Combat Aircraft" (LCA), but it was officially de-linked from HAL Tejas program in September, 2008. It was announced in November 2008 that the Kaveri engine will be installed on HAL Tejas by December 2009.

The Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for the demanding Indian operating environment, which ranges from hot desert to the highest mountain range in the world. The GTRE's design envisions achieving a fan pressure ratio of 4:1 and an overall pressure ratio of 27:1, which it believes will permit the Tejas to "supercruise" (cruise supersonically without the use of the afterburner). The Kaveri is a variable-cycle, flat-rated engine and has 13% higher thrust than the General Electric F404-GE-F2J3 engines equipping the LCA prototypes.
Plans also already exist for derivatives of the Kaveri, including a non-afterburning version for an advanced jet trainer, and a high-bypass-ratio turbofan based on the Kabini core.[3] Another concept being considered is an enlarged version of the Tejas with two engines fitted with fully vectoring nozzles, which might make the vertical tail redundant (the Tejas has no horizontal tail).[1]
An indigenous Full-Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) unit, called Kaveri Digital Engine Control Unit (KADECU) has been developed by the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Bangalore. The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) of Avadi was responsible for the design and development of the Tejas aircraft-mounted accessory gear box (AMAGB) and the power take-off (PTO) shaft.

The Kaveri is still in development, and reports indicate that it will be ready to fly by 2009. Testing and certification for use on the Tejas is expected to take some more time after that. Till then, the first two squadrons of Tejas will be powered by the GE404 engine.
Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further[7]
DRDO has reportedly been able to develop single crystal blades, which represent a major technological achievement for engine development. Production and integrating this technology into the engine is expected to take some more time.
Kaveri has already undergone 1,700 hours of tests and has been sent twice to Russia to undergo high-altitude tests for which India has no facility. The engine is also being tested to power the next generation of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles.[8]
In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to selected.[9] Development of the Kaveri by the GRTE would continue for other future applications.
It was announced in November 2008 that the Kaveri engine will be installed on LCA by December 2009,[10] apparently for tests only.[citation needed]

sanatani...
can you catch the ear of this Riaz katua and force him to confess that with all the progressiveness in musla societies and muslaism/islam and backwardness of Indian culture, muslas has failed to produce a single Indra Nooyi, Padmashree Warrior, Kalpana Chawla... and why the stats in US says this?
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/743/united-states-religion

Why the non-tribal female literacy rate of India is much higher than that of beakon of Islam, Pakistan?

that swine will not answer...will merely red flag the post...

misc. by madrassaAlumnus

I think your plan of fixing your country should begin with making it's constitution non-communal - which will be a starting point to progressing towards democracy. Which, in turn, will be a starting point towards genuine progress - in education, science and technology, research and development. Of course, this kind of thinking is haram for Pakis, having contracted the camel flu congenitally.

But I just thought I'd mention it anyway.

Re: # 607
hamidm2...
as per my knowledge, any US company invested in USA in major way, had to file for bankruptcy....

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Riaz Haq #602: I dont have any problem with what you are saying. Nor obviously am I implying that everything is hunky-dory in the US. Of course there are problems that the US needs to address - that is why Obama ran and won on the "Change" platform.

The issue is not whether the US is a satan or a saint. It is - is there something Pakistan and Pakistanis can learn from the US? Too many Pakistanis are so busy finding fault in the US that they never have time to actively try to benefit from the US experience. And so they remain clueless on how the US is the leading nation in the world - not just militarily but in virtually every dimension of human endeavor.

The prophet said go even as far as China to seek learning. And guess what...the Chinese fall over one another to get admission in a US university. The best seller book in China a couple of years ago was on how to get your child into Harvard! So maybe the Chinese and the Holy Prophet knew something that Dr. Masadi does not.

Re: # 605

bubba mian,

...... the 300% return in 10 years was in us dollars adjusted for currency fluctuations ......

.... i am still bullish on china .... just today i invested a substantial amount in fxi ......based on first hand experience i am convinced that many chinese companies will dominate their sectors in the coming decade - the auto industry is one example (check out the warren buffet and BYD story) ........ xlk is another good buy even though it does not include huawei which is going to leave cisco eating dust in a few years ......you are welcome

Re: # 600

pepe l'pew,

.... zakat and islam are a joke in pakistan (as they should be) ...... all you have to do is submit an affidavit on a 50 rupee stamp paper that you want to be exempted from zakat and you are all set ! ...... previously, you had to declare yourself a non-muslim or a shia to get this exemption - now it is open to everyone ....... allah is merciful and very very understanding !

.... everything, including your faith, is up for sale in the islamic republic of pakistan ......

.......you don't even have to go down to the kutchery to fill out the form .... the bank manager will send someone down there to do it for you while you finish off your chai and biscuits ..........

.... i hope this will convince you to invest your money for a good cause - the liberation of kashmir ....... being a bania, it should be an easy decision .......

Hamid mian,

paki rupees is very much controlled and pegged with USD. There should be some country currency fluctuation risk included in that 15% return that you got. Also, what risk would you include in that 15% number for inflation of paki economy? Do you consider investing in real properties and then flipping it rather quickly?

BTW, you still remember our discussion on US financial war with China? And now the US coming out, once again, smelling like a rose. Or is it too soon to claim "mission accomplished?"

How are our Affucked Baki Ga.dus doing?

Dimwit G,

Bakis are good looking chiknas. That is why all kinds of erect dostums
are exploring strategic depth in Baki rectum,
starting with Arabi totalitarian exclusivist materialistic Abrahamic gandugiri ideology, Amriki and lately even Chini.

Ok can some paki calm this pappu Riaz down...

Re: KSE- it is not a market. It is a local casino...check FII flows into and out of pakistan. To compare it to Indian and chinese capital markets is stupid.

Just as stupid when this kid tries to compare debt servicing and issuing capacity of a US- the most stable government with the currency of choice as the reserves for most nations to pakistan...

Are all you Pakis this delusional or is this guy like wanting to clear an entire berth on the stupid train for himself?

Re: # 582

tahmed: I have been here longer than you have. And I am thankful for a US education and training that has made me a discerning consumer of media/news and a more critical thinker, something I couldn't have learned in South Asia. So, I do not buy into all of the daily propaganda that highlights only the virtues of US democracy. I try and look at the whole picture, which is not entirely pretty now.

You know how I admire people like FDR, a Democrat, produced by the US democracy. And then LBJ, another Dem who pushed Civil rights and Great Society legislation and voting rights act that eventually made it possible for Obama to get elected. But the US national politics and the corrosive power of corporate money has eroded a lot of what was achieved until the 1960s....when the power of the political-military-industrial complex was still in check.

I also like local, grassroots democracy in communities, cities and counties that has serious people participation in running schools, cities, libraries, various commissions etc etc.

So the bottom line is that it's not all roses in America...especially these days with rising unemployment, home foreclosures, tent cities and crowded soup kitchens. A lot of the blame for it lies in Washington and on Wall Street who have colluded to enrich themselves at the expense of a lot of average American taxpayers. The jury is still out on whether Obama can change that with the same crooks still in charge on Capitol Hill.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 595

masadi, Here's what Princeton bioethics professor Peter Singer said last year: "This consistent pattern of readiness to inflict civilian casualties - often when striking targets that are not of vital military significance - suggests that Bush and other pro-life American leaders have less concern for the lives of innocent human beings in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan, than they have for human embryos."

Bush is gone. Obama is here. But nothing has changed in US posture or actions when it comes to respect for civilian life in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This belies all of America's talk of moral high ground against the Talibs. This is what Pervez Hoodbhoy calls "war of the drones"...predators versus human bombs that is causing heavy "collateral damage" in US jargon. This is the kind of hypocrisy that fuels anger and resentment and it will potentially doom America's (and Pakistan's) effort against the Talibs. This is really sad.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 598 Riaz

So 50-50 between the KSE Index and the Defence Savings Certificates then? Would that be optimal? I still need to address the zakat issue though. Can someone help on that one?

Re: # 583 hamidm: "i am a simple man and not very good with numbers and facts .."

And it shows. But you are a likable guy. I do enjoy your unique sense of humor.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 588

Pakistan's Karachi stock market has taken a nose dive along with the major markets around the world. KSE-100 dropped about 50%. Those who invested in KSE stocks in 2001-2 did as well or better than those who invested in NY, London, Mumbai or Shanghai. KSE increased 10-fold 2001-2007. Even after a 50% drop in KSE in 2008, investors have made 500% gain since 2001.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 596 Hamidm Boss

I never lost faith in your investing ability (read previous posts). As I was telling Bongdongs - you made out alright. Now, can you help answer the zakat and other issues that I raised?

Shagird

Re: # 592

bongdongs and pepe l'pew ,

.... bewakoof! .... when i bought in the dollar was at 61 and when i cashed out the dollar was 78 and change ....... a five lakh rupee certificate was worth 2.7 million in ten years .... now you two banias do the math and tell where you can get a 300% return ..... but like i said, the main purpose was to liberate kashmir which sadly did not happen

Published on Tuesday, May 5, 2009 by Reuters
Truckloads of Dead Civilians After Afghan Battle

by Sharafuddin Sharafyar

HERAT, Afghanistan - Villagers brought truckloads of bodies to the capital of a province in Western Afghanistan on Tuesday to prove that scores of civilians had been killed by U.S. air strikes in a battle with the Taliban.

The governor of Farah Province, Rohul Amin, said about 30 bodies had been trucked to his office, most of them women and children. Other officials said the overall civilian death toll may have been much higher, with scores of people feared killed while huddled in houses that were destroyed by U.S. warplanes.

U.S. forces confirmed that a battle had taken place with air strikes and said they were investigating reports of civilian casualties, but were unable to confirm them.

"There was an insurgent attack on an ANA (Afghan National Army) group and the ANA called for assistance, and some coalition troops joined them to help fight this group," said U.S. military spokesman Colonel Greg Julian. "There was close air support, but I can't give any detail on the type of aircraft."

He said U.S. and Afghan officials would head to the site on Wednesday to investigate the reports of civilian deaths.

"Once we get eyes on the ground we will have a better idea of what may have happened."

Ghulan Farooq, a member of parliament from the province, said he had been told by family members in the Bala Boluk district where the fighting took place that as many as 150 people had died. He said U.S. air strikes had destroyed 17 houses. Those figures could not be independently confirmed.

Lieutenant Colonel Khalil Nehmatullah, commander of an Afghan Army battalion in the province, said: "Unfortunately the Taliban took people into some buildings and forced them to stay in there after the security forces started telling them to evacuate."

"Arabs and Pakistanis were among the Taliban fighters who were armed with RPGs (rocket propelled grenades) ... the ANA entered the scene with help from a unit of U.S. marines, and they were fighting until 11 pm," he told Reuters. He said he did not know the extent of the civilian casualties.

EXECUTIONS

Amin said the battle in Farah province, a vast desert region on Afghanistan's western border, began after Taliban guerrillas moved into a village on Monday and executed three former government officials for cooperating with the state.

Before the reports of large numbers of civilian casualties emerged, the governor said four Afghan security forces members and about 25 insurgents had been killed.

The head of public health and hospitals in Farah province, Abdul Jabar Shayeq, said 11 civilians and three policemen had been admitted to hospital with wounds from the fighting.

Jalil Ahmad, a resident in the district, said earlier that some 100 Taliban fighters had taken up positions in residential areas to fight the Afghan and foreign troops.

"Civilian lives are in danger from both sides and they don't care about it," Ahmad said. "We beg President (Hamid) Karzai to save our lives."

Civilian deaths have become a bitter source of friction between Afghan authorities and U.S. forces. Washington says it is working harder this year to limit civilian deaths and investigate reports of such incidents more rapidly after the number of civilians killed by U.S. forces soared last year.

In the worst incident last year, the Afghan government and the United Nations said a U.S. strike killed 90 civilians. Washington initially denied it, but after three months said it had killed 33 civilians as well as 22 people it called militants.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai is in Washington, where he will meet U.S. President Barack Obama for the first time since Obama's inauguration. Obama has declared Afghanistan and neighboring Pakistan to be Washington's main military concern.

Last year more than 7,000 people, including 2,000 civilians, died in insurgency-related violence in Afghanistan, the United Nations and aid agencies say.

The United States plans to more than double its forces to fight the Taliban insurgents this year from 32,000 at the start of the year to 68,000 by the year's end. Other countries have around 30,000 troops in Afghanistan.

(Additional reporting by Golnar Motevalli, Hamid Shalizi and Peter Graff in Kabul; Writing by Peter Graff; editing by Ralph Boulton)
© 2009 Reuters

Tahmed writes "o get those funds you need to have something going for you"

Yeah you have to whore yourself to the corporate elite and kiss their buttocks so that they give you coverage on their media and frame your message based on manipulation within a two party dictatorship where corporate men interchange frequently with the political elite and ensure that corporations not only run private armies (as they did in Iraq) but that the state military as thugs at the top that interchange with defense industries. Who are you trying to fool tahmed. Never in the history of the world has such a barbaric nation become globally dominant as has the U.S., never before given the technology of butchering humanity at its disposal.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 592 Bongdongs

Hamidm mian must have figured out a way to hedge against currency devaluation. In any case, he is still ahead with 15% per year gain and a 60% currency devaluation over the same 10 year period. He has still more than doubled his money!

"this might surprise you, but the best investment i ever made was in pakistani government bonds that i bought over ten years ago ...... in us dollar terms (adjusted for exchange rate changes ) i made over 15% a year! .."
------------

yeah right!

Pakistan rupee on 05/05/99: 50.95
Pakistan rupee on 05/05/09: 80.05

so you lost 36% on currency itself over this time period and still made 15% annually?

Re: # 590 Hamidm ustaad

Mashallah!.

That sounds like a capital idea! Is there a way to hedge against currency fluctuation?

The return is 12.5% according to information on the website - not quite the killing you made, but good enough! BTW, there is a tax withholding (10%) on these for amounts over Rs.150,000/- maybe you can conjure up a scheme to ensure that multiple tranches can each be kept below the 150,000 threshold? I'll give you 2% for every 10% saved.

There is also the non-trivial matter of zakat 'as per the rules'. Do you know how 'non-Pakistani South Asians from a 'big neighboring country' who happen to be non-Muslims' can avoid paying zakat on account of them being non-Muslims? Is 'zakat' mandatory for non-Muslims (like Jaziya)? If you can handle the 'zakat' issue, I'll figure out how one can hoodwink the authorities of the 'big neighboring country' to directly invest in the same scheme without them knowing:)

I've known you for years now, and can do business with you!

Re: # 588

pepe l'pew,

... i recommend defense savings certificates ...... you can get a 15+% return and also help fund the liberation of kashmir .........

Re: # 565

[Then have some self respect & refuse the aid. You guys act if aid is your frikking birthright. Dont give me crap about Pakistan sacrificing. You hunt with the hound & run with the fox. You are trying the same spin doctoring that Hussen Haqqani is trying. Nice try, no cigar.]

Pakistan is like a whore to America. It takes America's money but does not enjoy the sex. Like any good client America does not understand why is the whore not having fun.

Re: # 584 Hamidm2

Which debt should I be buying? Fauji CornFlakes? Or Fauji Cement? (Reconstruction in FATA will eventually begin) WAPDA?
Enlighten me!

Riaz: hope you are tuned in. Since you are a serious S. Asian investor, and I have some serious money, do help me by relieving me of some of my money and directing it towards Pakistan! I will be eternally grateful!

Allah Hafiz

hamid,

{{i also could not find a place to pee in jinnah super and ended up peeing in the stinking open sewer that used to be a spring fed mountain stream in the early seventies}}

Next time try the railroad tracks...where are gopinath's genes when you need them?.. .

pmishra2...STFU, will ya. seriously you bore me with all that soviet newspaper discussion crap. :\

riaz gets funnier and funnier...but mostly in a sad moronic way...now he is onto explaining why the US has "failed"...its really funny how these fellows who survive by having some little job in the US economy are always giving lectures on how closed it is and how it will be soon destroyed.

He reminds me of some of the soviet newspapers discussion of US in the 60s and 70s. How it was going to be destroyed by racism and hegemonic capitalism and so on. We all know who was destroyed at the end of all that!!

Re: # 577

pepe l'pew,

..... this might surprise you, but the best investment i ever made was in pakistani government bonds that i bought over ten years ago ...... in us dollar terms (adjusted for exchange rate changes ) i made over 15% a year! ...... over the same period my 401k which invested in 'blue chip' stocks and 'aaa' bonds is now a 301K ......... thanks to my temporary loss of sanity, my kids us college education is paid for by the paki government .........

Re: # 569

riaz mian,

......now you have me really worried ! ..... since the us debt to gdp ratio is higher than pakistan's, does it mean that soon i will be living with load shedding, suicide bombings, open sewers and without indoor plumbing and organic baby leaf spinach? .......

...... i am a simple man and not very good with numbers and facts .... i trust you on these matters ....... all i know is that when i went to the redwings game yesterday the joe was full of working class people who had somhow managed to cough up seventy dollars a ticket and were guzzling eight dollar beers and eating five dollar hot dogs ..... on the other hand, on my last visit to islamabad i coughed up almost two thousand a head for lunch at the serena (the marriott was still closed after the bombing) and did not see any working class folks there other than imran khan and a few senators ....... i also could not find a place to pee in jinnah super and ended up peeing in the stinking open sewer that used to be a spring fed mountain stream in the early seventies ....... however, i must admit the urinals at the joe smelt just as bad! .... maybe there is something to this debt/gdp ration or maybe mike ilitch is just too cheap to build a new arena ........ i guess he is just another member of masadi's notorious us elite who has forgotten the days when he was a pizza delivery boy ......

RiazHaq: I do agree with you to the extent that you need to have funds to run for elections in the US. But - to get those funds you need to have something going for you. There are fund-raisers from the ground up - where at the grass root level (county council member, e.g.) the fund raisers are literally at the neighborhood level, where the candidate makes himself available of small groups of 10-15 people at a time, listens to their concerns and suggestions and so forth. I attended a few of these myself, and we actually had this candidate who happened to be jewish but sought muslim votes by presenting himself at muslim gatherings and discussing issues of concern. This is an aspect of fund-raising in the US - down at the grass roots level all across the country, that is actually very positive. So - it is too easy to make simplistic and negative judgements of the US, of the kind one finds "experts" in Pakistan presenting on Geo TV e.g.

RiazHaq #576 I do have a very positive view of the US - after all, I have lived here for over 30 years, and during these years benefitted from the professionalism of everyone here from teachers to plumbers to physicians to police to electricians to business managers to office workers of all kinds.

When you say " It is impossible for anyone to get elected in this country until they have substantial amount of money and the goodwill of certain corporate lobbies and special-interest lobbies like AIPAC", you go too far. Obama (the son of a kenyan father and a mother who spent her dying days struggling to pay her medical bills) made it to Harvard and from their to the Presidency on the basis of his undeniable merit. And Obama is only the tip of the iceberg in this respect. I have seen too many successful first generation immigrants - including some who were considered good-for-nothings in Pakistan, and who suddenly came alive once he came to the US - to buy this theory that the US is the devil incarnate that so many people in Pakistan paint it to be (Masadi is just an extreme case).

Pew Research:

You missed the news. China is dumping the treasuries and is buying Pakistani equivalent due to more trust in its future and it's system :)

Pakistan's army: as inept as it is corrupt

The answer to why Pakistan's mighty army seems impotent against Taliban insurgents is that it is more mafia than military

* http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/mustafaqadri
*
o Mustafa Qadri
o guardian.co. uk, Sunday 3 May 2009 17.00 BST

No institution dominates Pakistan like its army. The armed forces account for 20% of Pakistan's national budget, totalling $5bn last year according to official statistics. But the actual figure, already staggering for a country with high levels of illiteracy and malnutrition, is likely to be much higher. The army has been practically unaccountable since the very foundation of the country – last year's figures were the first it has publicly released since 1965.
Those aren't the only imposing figures. It has some 650,000 active soldiers and another half million in reserve, and internal discipline – strict loyalty to the high command among the rank and file – is very high.
Every one of Pakistan's democratically- elected civilian leaders has been forced to abdicate by the army. A general has directly ruled the country for 34 of its 62 years of existence.
With this vice-like grip on power, many are wondering how a rural insurgency armed with basic weapons has managed to overrun so much of the country. The answers have much to do with the Pakistan army itself.
Part of the problem is that the army is equipped for a conventional war against its historical adversary to the east, India, and not the type of insurgency being waged by the Taliban on the frontier to the west. Its operations in the tribal areas have been imprecise, leading to the destruction of many thousands of civilian lives and livelihood. Up to a million are believed to have been displaced by the conflict.
"Collateral damage always strengthens the Taliban, it helps them get more public support," says Abdul Hakim (not his real name), a journalist from Dir, a tribal agency, next to the Swat valley, in which the Taliban are slowly moving.
But there have been only limited, poorly-coordinated attempts to re-engage with communities devastated by armed operations against the Taliban. As a result the Army and government authorities have sheepishly ended up signing peace deals with the Taliban over the past four years. They have all consistently broken down, the Taliban using the lull in hostilities to regroup and rearm.
The most recent peace deal, over the Swat valley, is on the verge of collapse owing to continued Taliban operations in neighbouring areas.
There are lingering doubts about the Army's resolve to combat the Taliban too, as has been suggested when it initially sent up a lightly armed squad of paramilitaries to fight the Taliban in the Buner valley, just below Swat, even though the region is close to the nation's capital.
Another factor is the fact that many of the army's soldiers involved in operations are Pashtun like the Taliban. This has left the high command nervous about tackling the insurgents head-on for fear of causing rifts within the ranks. Although far from a mutiny, many soldiers have refused to fight their fellow tribesman or have surrendered and deserted.
But that has not prevented the army from engaging in operations that have been highly destabilising for tribal Pashtun communities in the affected areas. People fleeing the conflict in Swat and Bajaur, a tribal agency to the west on the border with Afghanistna, told me they felt that the army was, in fact, targeting them and not the Taliban. Some argued this was because the army feared Taliban reprisals. Others insisted they were being targeted because of their support for the Pashtun nationalist Awami National party, which runs the North West Frontier province government.
The truth of rumours such as these, common in Pakistan, are difficult to quantify. But one need not look to rumours to understand why the Pakistan army has failed to defeat the Taliban.
The army has a long history of strategic incompetence stretching back to the very first war the country fought with India in 1948. On that occasion, tribal militants from the regions now in open insurrection against Pakistan flooded into Indian-controlled Kashmir. After overwhelming Indian soldiers there, they promptly went on a binge of rape and looting while the army looked on.
Again at war with India, in 1965, the better-equipped Pakistan army lost more ground, and tanks, than its adversary. But perhaps the army's darkest moment was the 1971 war that lead to the creation of Bangladesh. That conflict saw Pakistan troops involved in widespread acts of extermination against the indigenous Bengali population of what was, at the time, known as East Pakistan.
The Hamoodur Rahman Commission held in Pakistan following that war found large swathes of the high command to be deeply negligent – the commander of Pakistani forces in East Pakistan, the report revealed, was involved in sexual misconduct even as his troops were killing, and being killed, on the battlefield.
In 1999, an ambitious Pakistani general by the name of Pervez Musharraf devised the tactically brilliant, but strategically near-suicidal, plan to invade Kargil, an Indian mountain post in Kashmir. That gamble nearly led to nuclear war, and almost certainly led to a military coup later that year.
How does one explain these failures? There can be no one explanation. But if there is an overriding message from these debacles, it is that the army is ill-equipped to defend the state because it has captured much of the bedrock of the state to which it is totally unaccountable.
According to Ayesha Siddiqua, in her seminal study, "Military Inc", the army's private business assets are worth around £10bn and it owns a handsome share of the country's business and land. The generals, as a result, appear to be more interested in leveraging control over businesses, properties and politics.
Yet, the army's power is such that although Pakistan's private media have a commendable record of criticising the country's civilian politicians, criticism of the men in uniform is rare – save during periods of crisis under direct military rule, like the dismissal of the chief justice in 2007.
It would be unfair, however, to criticise the army without acknowledging the pivotal role played by its greatest patrons – the United States, and, to a lesser extent, China. Since the 1950s, both countries have lavished military and political support on the Pakistan army.
"Nobody has occupied the White House who is friendlier to Pakistan than me," is what US President Richard Nixon told Pakistan's then military dictator, Yahya Khan, at a 1970 dinner in Washington, on the eve of the murderous war in East Pakistan. More recently, former President George Bush's praise for Pervez Musharraf has become the stuff of folklore.
The army has been rewarded by its foreign patrons despite its incompetence and unaccountability. In the process, civilian political life has been grotesquely stunted, leading the democratic process to be replaced by a crude kleptocracy where non-military leaders represent personal dynasties and not the people.
Is it any wonder, then, that the army struggles to find a concerted strategy for defeating the Taliban?

Re: # 576 Riaz

"...I think you have too benevolent a view of US society..."

Allah hu Akbar, brother! You (living in Silicon Valley) will get along famously with Chowk Maulana Urstruly (living in Michigan).

Takbir

Re: # 569 Riaz

Wah! Wah! brother - kya mooh-tor jawab diya hai

Your command of statistics is breathtaking. Have you met Romair/Bulleya (thanks, Shankar for the typecasting) formerly of the Pakistan Air Force and resident Chowk military strategist? You have convincingly proven that my retirement savings should be invested completely in Pakistani government bonds (I don't care what interest rate they bear currently - I am bullish, like you, long term). Romair convinced us in 2001 that Americans would be wearing T-shirts with Pakistani flags soon because of the yeoman service that Musharraf was providing in the GWOT.

Re: # 571 tahmed: "It is more than the "face" - it is the entire body politic, the entire ethos, of the US vs Pakistan that I refer to."

It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare US with Pakistan, or for that matter any other country. Each country has its own unique history and experience, and the way people behave and what they do is very contextual. So I do not favor transplanting the US system to an environment that will not be conducive to it. For example, no European system, not even the British system, is anything like the US system.

That said, I think you have too benevolent a view of US society. I think the US democracy and its capitalist system is under threat today because of the corrupt political-industrial elite that continues to have extraordinary power. It is impossible for anyone to get elected in this country until they have substantial amount of money and the goodwill of certain corporate lobbies and special-interest lobbies like AIPAC. As Nader said about Obama, "Obama is an overly cautious captive of his handlers". He is a product, part and parcel of the same system that produced Bush, Climton, others before him. If he tries to stray too far from it, he will no longer be president.

In a movie I saw about US elections a few years ago, there was a very interesting tongue-in-cheek comment that basically compared the US electoral races to Nascar races where each race car and its driver are adorned by the decals from their corporate sponsors. Each US electoral candidate has similar sponsorship deals...minus the decals. And as expected, they primarily serve their sponsors with lots of our tax dollars and favorable legislation. The current global crisis has been documented by many as the result of such a corrupt system that threatens the very foundations of the political-capitalist system that has been very beneficial to society in spite of iys many ills.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#571 tahmed you keep repeating your BS even after it has been answered over these years. Your BS about slavery abolition is garbage. Europe/US started the modern slavery era, perfected it, massed it and then when there was a need for free flowing wage labor went in for abolition using moral excuses. The world is not as dumb as you think it is. There is nothing progressive about the U.S. Its elite, in order to rescue capitalism from collapse have employed in new form the very old feudal relationships of slavery among racial minorities and patriarchy for its women. Get a goddamned education.

Alumni WW you don't need to respond to every BS coming from this moron. Even if you answer him with documentation he will repeat his BS. His nonsense about these points was answered by me multiple times in the past but as a dishonest, spineless moron he keeps repeating this nonsense in order to trap unsuspecting folk.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 567 Shankar

The current aid package in the US Congress is like a grant - no expectation of any repayment.

Alumni WW, these people here the Hindu bigots and the peons of the West have embarked on a strategy to drive you to the loony house and you are dancing to their tunes. Leave Chowk for a few days and get your neurons in order.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 566 Shankar

"He believes the militants are "assets" to be saved against India. "

Ha! Ha! Ha! Does he really believe that? I thought that he was a 'smarter' cookie than Bulleya/Romair who was famous for saying that the Pak Army could 'take them out anytime'!

#570 RiazHaq: It is more than the "face" - it is the entire body politic, the entire ethos, of the US vs Pakistan that I refer to.

No doubt, the US has steadily progressed to where it is today (it is after all a progressive nation!).

But you need to compare the US to where it has been relative to other nations at any GIVEN POINT IN TIME. Compare the US with the "muslim world" e.g., or even with western europe, over the past 5 centuries, and you will see what I mean.

Thus, it took British pressure (generated by anti-abolitionists in UK) in the 19th century to force the ottoman empire to ban slavery. The US abolished slavery on its own - after fighting a bloody internal struggle in the US Civil War.

PS: btw, the maulvis (who rant piously against the US for slavery and oppression today) vigorously opposed this abolishment, singing the same tune about "western pressure" on the caliphate! Saudis, who make millions with their "religious tourism" industry, aka haj, did not abolish slavery till 1962.

Re: # 568 tahmed: "if one is to make such generalizations, then one should look at the over-all ethos and political structure a society, not just take a few odd examples that are easy to find for any naiton."

I agree. But you are confusing the two faces of this nation. It's external face mask is very different from the face it has at home. This new positive face has taken shape after over 200 years of oppression and slavery.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 562

hamidm: As usual, you are quick to find reasons to be pessimistic. The US spends over $500b on debt servicing, the third biggest expense after social spending and defense. And soon, the US debt service will be the biggest expense in its budget.

The way to look at it is what percent of GDP is the debt.
Most recent figures in 2007 indicate that Pakistan's total debt stands at 56% of GDP (vs 78% for US), significantly lower than the 99% of GDP in 1999. It also compares favorably with India's debt-to-GDP ratio of 59% and Sri Lanka's 85% in 2007. From being the highest debtor nation in South Asia, Pakistan has, in fact, become the lowest debtor nation in its region and achieved economic growth rate of about 7% a year during the last 6 years

Even if Zardari does add a few billion dollars debt and economy slows to 1% growth (pessimistic), it will not fundamentally alter the ratios above.

In India, the lion’s share of the new budget, 63 percent, goes to the military, police, administration, and debt service...in a country with the largest number of poor and hungry people...yet you see a lot of bragging by the Indians on this forum. India does not have a hamidm....this Cassandra is unique to Pakistan.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#563 Riaz: "The US doesn't like any deals other the ones it makes...it demands compliance, not alliance"

it is difficult to argue for or against such generalizations - after all, it is deeply ingrained in human nature to seek compliance where possible, and go for an alliance as a second best solution.

if one is to make such generalizations, then one should look at the over-all ethos and political structure a society, not just take a few odd examples that are easy to find for any naiton.

Thus: compared to other nations, i would argue, the US is a far more pluralistic society (the president has the congress keeping an eye on him, and if that fails, one of the countless non-government actors are there - even Bush had this mother of a soldier killed in iraq park her tent outside his ranch, complete with press cameras). Outside the US, the US reaches out to virtually every country, including past enemies like Germany, Japan as well as possible future enemies like China, Russia.

There has been nothing comparable to this level of nuance and sophistication in Pakistan's relations with the world - the one place where pakistan exercised control over a foreign nation for some time (i.e. during the power vacuum after soviet departure in afghanistan), our government sought nothing but compliance (by foisting their pakistani stooge hekmatyaar, and later the pakistan-created taliban) on them. And pakistan is reaping the whirlwind today.

Riaz ul Haq

Before 911 Pakistan was on the verge of bankruptcy.

The world FORGAVE many of the loans, Saudis have given you billions in subsidized oil.

I dunno about this aid package being negotiated in Congress. Is it a loan? anybody? I, personally, highly doubt it.

Pew Research,

#564

Dont bother. Riaz ul Haq is a bigger spin doctor than Romair ever was.

He believes the militants are "assets" to be saved against India. These nutcases actually believe that the war of a 1000 cuts was a correct policy.

{{The US doesn't like any deals other the ones it makes...it demands compliance, not alliance. That's what destroyed Mush, is destroying Zardari, and will destroy Sharif if he plays ball with Americans.}}

Then have some self respect & refuse the aid. You guys act if aid is your frikking birthright. Dont give me crap about Pakistan sacrificing. You hunt with the hound & run with the fox. You are trying the same spin doctoring that Hussen Haqqani is trying. Nice try, no cigar.

Its a good thing the Obama administration recognized this perfidy. There are very good reasons not to trust the Pakis. If you dont trust Americans, stop being a whore.

I agree with tahmed that Pakistan shouldn't be allowed to collapse. At the same time, I dont want my tax dollars buying a condo in Dubai or India-specific weapons.

Re: # 563 Riaz

"Pakistanis need to be smart. They should make/use deals to divide and conquer the insurgents..."

So, what are you suggesting, brother? Can you be clear?

Re: # 559 tahmed: "In Fata, the US vigorously in fact vigorously opposed musharraf's "deal" with the taliban when the military had them on the run. Pakistani commentators were at that time claiming the usual "The US does not understand the local situation, we do". Turned out, the US government was right all along, and instead of "deals" musharraf should have gone all out and wiped these rats out. but these rats were his job security, not to mention his meal ticket, as i mentioned..."

The US doesn't like any deals other the ones it makes...it demands compliance, not alliance. That's what destroyed Mush, is destroying Zardari, and will destroy Sharif if he plays ball with Americans.

The US made similar deals with the Sunnis in Iraq, and earlier, a few centuries ago, it used such deals to isolate and wipe out the entire native population of America.

Let's face it: The US is viewed with strong suspicion by most Pakistanis, for good reasons.

Pakistanis need to be smart. They should make/use deals to divide and conquer the insurgents...we know the Pakistani Taliban are not really a monolith but lots of feuding tribals. The only thing that unites them is not their undeniable religious fanaticism but their common and visceral hatred of America, the "infidel" hegemon and its cronies...like the Northern Alliance, Indians, Israelis and America's identifiable allies in Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 555

riaz mian,

.......... 40% of the budget goes to debt servicing and you see nothing wrong with that ? ....... i suppose you pay 40% of your income as interest on your credit cards ...... no wonder your glass is always full - hopefully your 'faqa masti' will pay off one day .......

........ i hereby appoint you as the president for life of the optimist club ...........

I worded that badly. I mean, how much of the 40% is conditional aid, unconditional loans, and how much money in written off 'aid', or unconditonal aid that Pakistan doesn't have to pay back, that was gifted to it, has Pakistan received. These are the relevant questions.

And does anyone know what percentage of India's budget goes towards servicing debt?

"Absolutely! About 40% of Pak annual budget pays for debt servicing"

+++++

So what percentage of the Indian annual budget pays for debt servicing? And are the debts being serviced by that 40% direct aid which is written off by various donors, or separate and in reality just loans?

40% of the annual budget. That is bad houskeeping.

RiazHaq #554 I dont totally agree here. as i clearly recall, mush was making "deals" of all kinds with the islamists while trying to push aside what he considered his real opposition - namely, the mainstream parties.

In Fata, the US vigorously in fact vigorously opposed musharraf's "deal" with the taliban when the military had them on the run. Pakistani commentators were at that time claiming the usual "The US does not understand the local situation, we do". Turned out, the US government was right all along, and instead of "deals" musharraf should have gone all out and wiped these rats out. but these rats were his job security, not to mention his meal ticket, as i mentioned...

Here is another tidbit from the same newstory:

"Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas, the Pakistani military's spokesman referred to the Taliban in noticeably respectful terms, even as he complained that it had killed prisoners whose hands had been tied. His language contrasted sharply with the mocking defiance of recent Taliban pronouncements. In the past two days, Taliban spokesmen have asserted that democracy is "infidel" and that the fighters will never lay down their weapons. "

Alla hu Akbar

Tahmed

You had asked, "why does not the military 'take out' the Taliban?" (or something similar). Well, the answer, Inshallah, is in The Washington Post:

"Despite the Taliban's record of rapaciousness, it is hard for the Pakistani military establishment, trained to view Hindu-dominated India as its mortal enemy and inculcated with an Islamist mind-set during the military dictatorship of the 1980s, to accept Muslim insurgents as adversaries. Soldiers home on leave have been taunted for fighting their own people; desertions are rising. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/05/05/ST200905 0501490.html

Re #477

Kindly forgive my limited intelligence. What does it mean and who is the interactor for the statement that :

'fortunately we are better looking than hindoos' ???

Who are these we ???

Re: # 549: "Does Pakistan have to repay the money it receives?"

Absolutely! About 40% of Pak annual budget pays for debt servicing.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 553: "instead, he chose to be use these taliban as his job security and as a means to milk the Bush administration."

Both US and Pakistan were focused on al Qaeda threat for most of this decade with Bush-Mush agreeing. There was a mistaken belief that Taliban were not and could not become a real serious threat...as former US chair of joint chiefs said, " The Taliban have been eviscerated". Everyone underestimated the rag-tag band of the Taliban. That's what allowed them to regroup and rearm and pose the threat they do now. The incompetence and corruption of Karzai and increasing civilian death toll from US attacks also helped the Taliban. Poppy grown by the warlords who were coddled by the US became a source of funding for the Talibs and the failure to deliver to the people swelled the Taliban ranks. So there is plenty of blame to go around.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq #546 You are right that there was progress in a number of ways during musharraf's time - to what you say, I would add that item 3 in #543 below (i.e. the cell phones, and also the internet and TV) - all took off in pakistan during his time. The source of these changes was in the west, and the investors were private parties and not the pakistan government, but musharraf/shaukat aziz can be credited with not coming in the way.

the damaging thing musharraf did, of course, was not to go all out against the taliban when they first entered pakistan. instead, he chose to be use these taliban as his job security and as a means to milk the Bush administration. and in doing so, he negated (among other things) the positive things to the economy and indeed has brought pakistan on the verge of destruction. We now have a full fledged "civil war", a legacy of musharraf's double game of playing both sides of the fence (taliban, US).

#519, Anil I understand your pain, your entire education at HBS was a fitting into a tyrannous system exercise. You cannot think at the world level you are thinking at the individual country level just like individualism bs that keeps the little men and women busy while those at the top maintain a system that keeps them wealthy and in control. Look at the sea of underdevelopment, regardless of culture or religion in our world and then tell me if your Koreas and taiwans and Japans explain development- they do not, they 'developed' at the expense of whoring themselves and offering strategic leverage to the U.S. and for that the U.S. allows development outside of Europe to a tiny very tiny percent of global population.

TNITC masadi

Riaz:

Your scholarship is impeccable. Are you descended from migrants from India to Karachi?

Khuda Hafiz

majumdar writes "I am glad you do admit that Korea, Taiwan and Malaysia are much ahead of Pakistan and India even though these countries were as much US satellites as Pakistan was and far more aligned to USA than India was to US in 1947-91. Would it fair then to comment that it is the stupditiy of the local people/leaders which is responsible for South Asia's backwardness and not the US elite."

Here is where you are intellectually challenged Majumdar sahib as most right wingers like you are: Korea is U.S. occupied and the cost of its 'development' is being a bullwark against one half of the Korean nation for the sake of USA. Taiwan the tiny fart 'country' provides leverage to the US against China and Malaysia is not much of anything. These three are the exceptions that are presented by right wingers like you in order to justify a tyrannous world system in which the many suffer (just like I recently busted the India/China bs). The reason when all suffer except for a few means that they tyrannous system they operate in is to blame not the stupidity of the leaders- what is ensuring predatory relationships and throwing such leaders to the fore is a world system that feeds off the poor to enrich the few.

TNITC masadi

"The real question is whether you understand that difference? In your skewed vocabulary and misguided definitions, anything Pakistan receives is AID, while anything India receives is LOAN.

++++++

Riaz, does India have to repay the funds it has received? What are the terms of the aid? Does Pakistan have to repay the money it receives? Simple question. Elucidation would be nice. It wazs a question. Do you understand the difference between the two.

Also, do I need to be shot or blown up for asking this question?

Re: # 544 Riaz

Takbir!

The chart on the link showed that Mauritius was ranked #1 in the 'world hunger index'. That is why these sources are so useful - they fully normalized the data for the 'size' of the population pool! Allah hu Akbar!

Re: # 537: "Do you think Riaz understand the difference between loans and aid?"

The real question is whether you understand that difference? In your skewed vocabulary and misguided definitions, anything Pakistan receives is AID, while anything India receives is LOAN. It couldn't be any more ridiculous. As Masadi often says, "You need a goddamn education".

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 543

I agree with most of what you say...except the data on FDI under Mush shows that Pakistan did much better than India looking at FDI as percent of GDP. India’s cumulative stock of FDI at 6 per cent of GDP at the end of 2005 compares with 9 per cent for Pakistan, 14 per cent for China, and 61 per cent for Vietnam. The reason FDI has lagged badly in India is perhaps no better illustrated than by India’s unwillingness to fully embrace market forces.

I know you don't look Mush, and for good reasons. But let's not discount the real progress that dd happen earlier this decade.

The Economist magazine in its June 12, 2008 issue summed up Pakistan's current and past Economic Performance as follows:" (The current) macroeconomic disarray will be familiar to the coalition government led by the Pakistan People's Party of Asif Zardari, and to Nawaz Sharif, whose party provides it “outside support�. Before Mr Sharif was ousted in 1999, the two parties had presided over a decade of corruption and mismanagement. But since then, as the IMF remarked in a report in January, there has been a transformation. Pakistan attracted over $5 billion in foreign direct investment in the 2006-07 fiscal year, ten times the figure of 2000-01. The government's debt fell from 68% of GDP in 2003-04 to less than 55% in 2006-07, and its foreign-exchange reserves reached $16.4 billion as recently as in October."

The turn-around engineered by Shaukat Aziz under Mush was applauded around the world. A 2005 Bloomberg headline, as reported by China's Peoples Daily, proclaimed as follows: "The world's second-fastest growing economy after China is no longer India. It's Pakistan."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#543,

This has happened before, around 1000AD and has happened
since then. The then denizens of this area suffered through the same atrocities but their progeny is proud and
glad of that happened, may be same thing will happen after
Talibans run over, 50/100 years from now on, they will be
proud that Taliban happened, that grandpa abdul opted to
follow the true path.

Re: # 538

Observed reality? Here is observed reality:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7669152.stm

Don't forget to see the pictures an graphics.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq #528 direct bilateral/multilateral aid has been significant for both india and pakistan, but it pales in comparison to the other forms of aid:

1. expatriate remittances: $4-5 billion per year for pakistan as i recall (alephnull to please double check with wikipedia and tell me i dont know what i am talking about because the correct figure is $3.98756 billion and 35 cents).

2. private investments: much more in india by top notch companies than in pakistan (thanks general musharraf, for raising these attack dogs, the islamists, who chop off heads of foreign investors).

3. foreign technology: suddenly even our maali in pakistan has a cell phone that he routinely uses to chat with relations in saudi arabia.

4. foreign ideas: pakistan seems now to be coming around to where india has been for 60 years. namely recognizing the merits of what were derieded as "western ideas" like democracy. only pockets of resistance (taliban, masadi, urstruly) remain.

So - all in all - both india and pakistan are very significant beneficiaries from foreign imports of various kinds. Because their traditional cultures are dead-end cultures. totally incapable of surviving in today's environment around the world.

shankar #534 Never heard of "nuisance value". you make your country a big enough a nuisance, and you collect gold. there is gold in them thar hills of swat, doctor sahib.

but more seriously - what else do you expect the world to do? watch a nation of 170 million with nuclear weapons, nuclear scientists, and a vast military fall into the hands of bandits for whom the only thing sacred is the power to oppress, the power to kill, the power to ruin lives by burning schools?

thank God for nuclear weapons - not only have they protected pakistan from india, they are also forcing the world to take notice even though pakistanis have been totally fooled by the mask of islam that these invaders wear, thus protecting pakistanis from themselves.

shankar:

"So, by that logic, we should get 7 times PER CAPITA aid, to be commisurate to the aid package Pakistan gets."

For a bania, your maths is not that strong. I think that you meant 7 times, not per capita.

"more importantly, we are better looking than the horrible hindoos who live on the wrong side of the border"

+++++

If you don't get your dicks out of your hands hamidm you'll all be walking around in burkhas and your men will look like werewolves and your beauty won't mean a thing without a razor blade and black sun-vitamin shields across the face of every woman. And as everyone knows, from Eskimos in the north pole to peasents in Guinea Bissau, who often lament that no community on earth compares with the good lokking-ness of Pakistanis, that will be a loss for humanity. As we know humanity is defined as those who strive to be as good lokking as Pakistanis.

Werewolves and black-ghosts. Save your beauty for the world to gaze upon. I can vouch for this because I have seen the photograph of Riaz on his blog, and it's incredible.

Re: # 536 hamidm2, haven't you read in the news. The brahmans drove their trains over a few low-caste bhindoos and dalits on the tracks the other day.

Re: # 530 Riaz

Allah hu Akbar, brother
Then there must be something wrong either with these statistics or the sources! Have you traveled yourself through India and sub-Saharan Africa to tell the difference? There is no mass famines in India of the scale of the starvation in Ethiopia, Sudan, Chad. The last such famine was in the Bengal in the 1940s.
Somehow the numbers do not square with observed reality.
Allah hafiz

"$100 billions were/are loans. they are being paid back."

+++++

Do you think Riaz understand the difference between loans and aid?

Maybe we deserve to be shot for asking that question.

Re: # 530

riaz mian,

.... more importantly, we are better looking than the horrible hindoos who live on the wrong side of the border .....

..... having said that, it really won't help us when the taliban fan out from lal masjid and burn down beacon house school and the women's college in islamabad ...... i think our problems are much bigger than those faced by starving indians squatting on railroad tracks ...... let's stop consoling ourselves by pointing out the misery next door .... it is like pissing in your pants - it might give you a nice warm feeling, but after a while you begin to stink .....

"If you don't mend your ways and soon, the Maoists and other insurgents will destroy the smug little middle class Indians boasting about Shining India."

++++

How would they do that Riaz? Let us know. By shooting and bombing people? That's your favourite methodology, isn't it? Whether it's 'islamophobic' children, teenagers and women and men in London tube trains, or middle class Indians in India, a little bit of invocation of dynamite and bullets in the head, and the ensuing imagery of the dead bodies of innocent people always gives a nice, sinister coda to your posts.

#528

$100 billions were/are loans. they are being paid back.
As I understand it, the $10 billion GWB gave you wasn't a loan. Also, this tranche of billions are not loans. Pakistan has bad countless billions postponed or forgiven whenever it came to the verge of bankruptcy. That's just from the US. That's not counting other sugar daddies like China , Saudi & other FoP.

Also, the "excuse" 7:1 is always given here by Pakistanis to justify military defeats. So, by that logic, we should get 7 times PER CAPITA aid, to be commisurate to the aid package Pakistan gets.

Its one thing being optimistic; you have the "Polyanna syndrome".

Re: # 530 most of us on chowk are jobless wonders, waiting for the pay day every month. While you are a business man...dont you have a business to run.

Or are you interested in becoming the Ahmed Challabi of Pakistan. May be thatis the intent here

Re: # 530 most of us on chowk are jobless wonders, waiting for the pay day every month. While you are a business man...dont you have a business to run.

Or are you interested in becoming the Ahmed Challabi of Pakistan. May be thatis the intent here

Re: # 530 most of us on chowk are jobless wonders, waiting for the pay day every month. While you are a business man...dont you have a business to run.

Or are you interested in becoming the Ahmed Challabi of Pakistan. May be thatis the intent here

Re: # 529

The World Bank defines extreme poverty as living with less than $1.25 a day and poverty as living on less than $2 a day.
In India, there are 280m under $1 a day, 450m under $1.25 a day and 850m under $2 a day. This is worse than most of sub-Saharan Africa.

Maoists are driven by not just extreme poverty but the growing rich-poor gap in India, the worst in South Asia.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 527

Aslaam aleiukum, brother

The poverty rate in India is 28% (ie. 280M people). Where did you come up with 850M people?
The Maoists don't participate in elections. They are attacking India's strong points - democracy and elections. Nobody has yet succeeded in that strategy.

Re: # 523 "the bania gene ?"

Well, the banias are way of ahead of you in shaking down the West for money...they are still getting a lot more of it than Pakistanis but they do it quietly. They have already received over $100b in the last few decades and recently asked the World Bank alone at the G20 meeting to increase it $15b a year.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 521

Your comment is a strange mix of false pride and ignorance...but it shouldn't be surprising. It's ignorance that is usually at the root of false pride. As I lecture to Pakistanis to warn them against excessive pessimism and self-loathing, I should warn you Indians about your excessive pride. It definitely doesn't suit India with its 850m poor people and about half its children chronically hungry. If you don't mend your ways and soon, the Maoists and other insurgents will destroy the smug little middle class Indians boasting about Shining India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

hamidm #523 so what if the money ends up in general's accounts? generals are people too.

hamidm #523 so what if the money ends up in general's accounts? generals are people too.

hamidm2,

that is not bania gene, it is Bhikhari gene and it is
definitely not come from Grandpa Gopinath.

......... the bania gene ?

... sometimes i wonder if this taliban drama is being perpetuated to scare the world into handing over billions of dollars ...... five billion here and seven billion there, pretty soon you are talking real money ......... it will be interesting to see how much of this money ends up in swiss banks and buying bmws for army generals .........

...... it is hard to kill grandpa gopinath's bania genes ..

Re: # 417

Salim Katue,

Please stop using the Chauhan vaise.

Honestly, I don't hear many Pakis lamenting Kargil thats cause you do not know the truth about it. We lament it as it was backstabbing of the highest order ordered by muhajir mian musharraf after Atal "the pompous windbag" Vajpai had gone the extra mile for so called peace with the katuas (when they do not let us live in peace in India how will they do the same in Pak) and it lead to the death of about 534 Indian soldiers of the pak loss we do not know and care but one 1 paki Young Officer's nana petitioned the Indian Supreme Court and had his body exhumed and sent for burial in Pak. The articles in time and newsweek you can google the same were full of praise of the Indian valour and paki cowardice in some cases see that inset box of Time SA edition where it alleged some pak oaficers paid money to escape service in Kargil. Also remember your PM ran to the white house to save your trapped troops and last but not least this war was televised in Indian tv and the death of our troops due to the backstabbing was too much thus the lament read the book lament of a lost generation at the British library written by the sister of a brit YO who lost his mind in 1921 due to the slaughter of Ypres, Somme and Flanders in general and the loss of every single classmate of his batch in the same next do not suggest the brits lost WW I.

48 and 65 were draws according to you. Theek hai let us see if your country can survive another such draw.

Sanatani

Re: # 344

And Riaz Mian the Brahmins invented Sansrit, Sanskriti, Algebra, Trignometry, Geometry, they made the first important discoveries in Science, Medicine, Metallurgy, Astronomy and Philosophy the only area they did not do well was Engineering. Yes Brahminical pride has been occassionally harmful to India but are you muslai not the same about all these things and much worse egoisitc, narcisstic, egoistic and full of hate for all non muslai. What is Shikwa and Jawab-e-Shikwa all about. What is the koran but a manual of hate, rapine, murder and plunder of towards Pagans.

Abe apne gireban mein jhank aur tab baat kar.

Sanatani

Re: # 295

Guru Shreshtha Shri Guru Ravidass (who was by birth a charmakar) gave Deeksha to Mirabai (the daughter of the Rathores and Daughter-in-law of the Sisodias the Sun of the Hindus [does not transalte as well as Hinduon ke Surya]).

Guru Shiromani Shri 1007 Guru Nanak Dev ji also visited him and was influenced by him.

Bhagwan Shri Ram ate bers given by Sharbari.

WTF are you talking about???????

Also your countrymen use the term Shoodar, Choorha and Chamar frequently and among the many Hindu women whom the Muslim married all were from so called High castes and Maharani Durgavati who married into a Gond family a so called Scheduled Tribe is revered as an avtar of a Devi by the same people.

Go figure

Sanatani

Re: # 487

Masadi:

You like to trash almost everything you write about.

Why can you not accept that each society has dynamics between its “legally� armed (= military), and legally “unarmed� (=civilian) parts. A symbiotic relationship must develop across this boundary that separates the two.

History shows us that when and wherever the relationship is transactional (give and take), it is has a way of finding equilibrium for peace which results in prosperity.

The equilibrium cannot be attained if either institution in legally armed or legally unarmed part is weaker. When legally armed part is weaker then the nation-state can face existential threats from within or from outside. While weak legally unarmed part threatens because fear can be instilled in nation’s thinking that legally armed people are superior, and hence can rule unarmed parts of the society.

India developed equilibrium out different exigencies than Pakistan. Dominance in India would have destroyed the fabric of patched together legally unarmed diverse society.

Pakistan had no such exigency in Pakistan. First religion and after break of Bangladesh other factors, like 70% Punjabi civilians ensured a critical mass. Even today in India, its however defective democracy has moved to toward attaining the same patched together civilian society, but within democratic institutions.

Temptations are the same even today in Pakistan, for at least one outside observer to see. There is a sense to dominate to bring equilibrium, than to compromise and bring the equilibrium.

Arrival of Taliban is no different than arrival of army to dominate and attain equilibrium. Until there is a Punjabi Taliban, just there is Punjabi Army, the equilibrium cannot be achieved unless Taliban and Army cooperate, of civilian part shows strength based on outsiders support. It is also possible if, as in Iran, there is support among Taliban and civilian that too can force equilibrium.

Therefore, blaming outsiders is as foolish as burying head in the sand. Masadi as a state of mind commits both mistakes. An outsider can dominate this state of mind, only if there is a failure to recognize that this points to weakness in me also. This state of mind ignores it, because almost it is programmed in the genetic code, there is always something outside, which today can be from the U.S. to Army, tomorrow Taliban, or “extreme bigotry� of the outsider.

All of the above comes from the basic problem which is the imposition of belief system. This imposition simply divides. Unquestionable belief in redemption of people through social value of the belief system is so strong. Such beliefs always put “others� as outsiders by default.

There is no inclusivity. Instead there must be submission for it to work. There indeed are examples of functioning and stability through submission. There is very limited room for pluralism – whatever lip service if any there may be. This forces exclusions at all levels of society and nation-state. In Pakistan, Army, Lawyers, Mullahs, Lal Masjids etc. etc. and etc. are for exclusion of others. Even judiciary looks exclusive, executive behaves independent, and legislative is confused.

Again it is very different from India. In India, its defective democracy is for inclusion to build coalition now, and not exclusion, exclusion in India means disintegration. In many ways, Pakistan’s constant threat and noises on Kashmir have done a reactionary job to creating uniting power to avoid disintegration, and hence exclusion is unacceptable.

Here is an example, that however defective democracy in action to keep the country united and moving on with its disparity, dogmas and biases.

These situations are very different from S. Korea, post war Japan, Taiwan they were all ravaged and rebuilt. China, like India, is a different story altogether.

Re: # 224

Can Islam get over its bigotry of Non Muslims. Chaiye muhim chalaiye to remove derogatory references to Muslims and setting up of 1 just 1 Mandir in Mecca.

Sanatani

Chalo to please you we shall make it Medina

Sanatani bhai,

There are many reason's amongst them not the least illegal immigration from Bangla

You are right about EOK being a hell hole but Bangla illegal immigrants alone are not responsible. The legal Bongs are much more responsible for the mess- you know why they vote Commie 'cos the Commies promise freedom from work-and of course Jawahirullah and his progeny(ies)

Regards

Jaago India Jaago,

If you do not like political activity then at least get into some kind of volunteering (Swayam Seva) to help the Matrabhumi else maybe not now but within 20 years you will be standing before Kangaroo courts of the maoists.

Sanatani

Re: # 216

I wont even say that I hate to say this what this guy is saying is correct especially what Jairam Ramesh called the EoK syndrome that is East of Kanpur. Draw a meridien from kanpur to the pole and the community stays that here is amongst the world's most wretched.

There are many reason's amongst them not the least illegal immigration from Bangla and the destruction of the natural habitat and lifestyle of the Vanvasi habitats forcig them from a genteel poverty to a wretched one.

Our countrymen have got intoxicated by the rubbish the media feeds them that it is India and China. Nothing isa further away fromthe truth the Indian trait of too much ego and too little pride and the craven feeling prevalent among the Elite to get certificates from the west for whatever they do is shameful.

In some ways i think Masadi is right a large no of Indians are peons of the west or should I say Resident Non-Indians.

Having said that I had listened to the discourse many many years ago of a retired former diplomat about how dangerous a Pakistani General Park chung Hee would be for India. While he is dead and long gone I am happy to tell him if he accesses the net from Swarg Lok that it is not possible the 2 quams that could produce one suffer from serious character defects the poonzabis to smug the muhajirs too quarrelsome.

Riaz but regaring PPP I have a query see Pak does not have a Public Distribution system grain medicines and fuel are much more expensive there so how does the PPP be more please enlighten.

Sanatani

Masadi sahib,

If that potential was directed towards industrialization and building civilian institutions, you can bet your (swine) a$$ that these Malaysias and Taiwans and Koreas couldn't hold a candle to us.

I am glad you do admit that Korea, Taiwan and Malaysia are much ahead of Pakistan and India even though these countries were as much US satellites as Pakistan was and far more aligned to USA than India was to US in 1947-91. Would it fair then to comment that it is the stupditiy of the local people/leaders which is responsible for South Asia's backwardness and not the US elite.

Regards

Re: # 506: tahmed: "However, the bowl between the ears of too many people has the capacity of only half a cup. And so, it can only look at the half empty part and run out of room in the bowl between their ears,"

I think it has much more to do with South Asian emphasis on teaching/learning facts rather than reasoning. I have harped on it in my blog.

The second reason is that most of us armchair critics prefer to curse darkness rather than light candles.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiaqHaq,

There is Pakistani guy in Austin, TX called Behtram Atashband (sp?), you really should get in touch with him, you two will get along famously.

#491
"Around 200 Million Dalits or Untouchables are employed in this profession"

thanks Freehussani, now I understand why economic progress is so slow in India.

We have 1/3rd of our workforce engaged in the low value added task of transporting sh*t on their heads!

Re: # 508

The Red Neck tips good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7aEG__LZ3g&feature=PlayList&p=0FC681229D BBCB99&index=28

Video about the Spanish civil war - striking similarities to the situation in Pakistan - army, church, feudalism, anarchy, poverty, military.

so I place a few pakistanis, a few Indians, some bangles, some Sri Lankans, and few arabs in line. ASk this red neck to pick one up for some sport.

the Red Neck goes, damn these people who do I pick...and goes

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe,
Catch a ****** by the toe.
If he hollers let him go,
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe

Damn thing, is when the same Red neck goes to these countries, he is treated better than you or I. Heck, he can walk into that 5 * hotel in dirty shorts, torn T-shirt and feet unshod. Let us try it, and see the treatment. Even the chicks run after him ignoring you, who are properly groomed. Life sucks.

#504, 503, 502, 499, 498 and everybody else,

leenah got something exquisitely beautiful by Iqbal Bano posted on his latest iLog.

See it, for a change, for Christ's sake. Retain your sanity.

Riaz #498 While the cup is indeed never totally empty or totally full, as you say. However, the bowl between the ears of too many people has the capacity of only half a cup. And so, it can only look at the half empty part and run out of room in the bowl between their ears, and so will consider their full bowl to represent an empty cup. And vice versa, no doubt, with the shinging, full cup.

PS: The above is meant to be very profound to so it can rise to the level of a chowk discussion. ;-)

Re: # 502

You are a decent man, Sir. However, I identify myself with the lady or the gentleman who are hauling, in a bucket perched on their head, another human being's bodily refuse. I, personally, hold myself responsible for the part I play in maintaining the status quo and continuing their misery. The shining you speak of is a torturous glare which blinds me and many others.

Re: # 498
You wage a lone battle! Godspeed to you.

Re: # 496
[...The cycle of contempt by the Pakistani people for the military whenever it takes over ...]

so then where is the action?... take over the GHQ and show them generals, send them to their barracks... 60 years and counting...

Re: # 501 freehussaini

Agree... but realistically speaking, breaking bondage is not an overnightly activity... it's medium-to-long term process, we should be looking at the incremental results...

On dalit issue - that's what I was pointing out - there is elaborate process that has been set in motion for this - right from the get go... millions have been lifted from penury and oppression, and former dalit persons are in every positions of power as possible... Obviously there is still large number to be affected, but life of a dalit today is vastly improved than his life 60 years ago... it's medium-to-long term process...

The whole "India shining" business was indeed part of that story as well - the idea is that india has broken bondage of low economic growth and is now generating wealth at a pace that's required to make dents on poverty... obviously - while wealth generation was impressive, the wealth distribution has not been so... but that does not take the credit away from the original idea of india shining...

Re: # 495

No. I am not happy now. I will be happy when we all will break the bondage our minds are in, now. When we are able to think as people beyond our personal belief, care for each other and work for it.

Re: # 497

Hold it. Stop. This happens in Pakistan, too.

Re: # 481 Tahmed

"the question we should ask is - why did it take so long for us to recognize the reality of the taliban?"

Allah hu Akbar, brother. Have you read the book by Ahmed Rashid, "Descent into Chaos: The US and the Failure of Nation Building in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia"? They say that you'll find a lot of heretical 'truth' in it. Or, you can read the book by that apostate Hussein Haqqani - the Pak Ambassador to the US, "Pakistan: Between Mosque And Military". They say that you find a lot of 'answers' in there as well.

It seems to me that every nation, as every forum, needs a few Cassandras to force people to see and acknowledge their problems and bad news. Unfortunately, however, Chowk seems to be populated almost entirely of Cassandras...maybe it's part of the editorial policy here.

As great philosopher throughout history have said, there needs to be balance between excessive honesty and self-deception for a healthy society. The cup is almost never completely empty, nor is it ever full. We, as those who care for our country of origin, need to find a way to see the glass half full, then strive to fill the rest of it as best as we can.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 491
The inhuman practice of manual removal of human excrements from dry toilets---with base hands, brooms, and metal scrapes---taken to the dump site on their heads---this act alone, qualifies India as the most shameless, heartless, cruel, barbaric and uncivilized society on earth---bar none. ]

Yep - you are right, this practice is even worse than beheading people on a public square in Swat. Damn - I am moving to Pakistan today.

Major writes "people dance in the streets when they take over"

Like the Iraqis were dancing in the streets when the U.S. took over? What a fantastic "moronic" sample you have generalized from. Compare this dancing to the number the vote for popular politicians in elections and you will note how idiotic your observation is. The cycle of contempt by the Pakistani people for the military whenever it takes over is not a new occurrence and has been happening ever since the Ayub regime. You suggest in your amnesia that Musharraf was the only one who was disliked by the people. BS

TNITC masadi

Re: # 491 freehussain

take it easy dude... India is not shining, Hindooos are bad people, they are poor and wretched and live on railroad tracks, you happy now?... :)

Re: # 481

That is really a very good question, Mr. Ahmed. Off the cuff, may be, because the middle class just noticed them now and started reacting to the situation. I am not sure. There might be many more answers to your question.

Major (thug)claims that the Pakistan Army has been pursuing public opinion in its shenanigans throughout the history of Pakistan. Zia ul Fcuq claimed the same after his referendum, which merely proves that these majors and generals are from an inherently undemocratic institution where they are trained/resocialized to look at civilians with contempt, and except for military men every person with an intelligence above the damn fool scale can recognize that standing armies are a threat to democracy, especially when they translate their outside contempt into active interference in the state. Every standing army of any country in the world is a potential military coup waiting to happen, sometimes it happens explicitly as in Pakistan or implicitly like the U.S. where the military elite are part and parcel of a permanent war economy.

TNITC masadi

#491

very nice, this kind of message gives us insight into the mental makeup of riaz haq, the foundations of the mental disorder that has now fully overwhelmed him.

Two parts were specially revealing -
[quote]
Poor Hindus--they won't get 72 virgins!
[\quote]

and the final sign-off

[quote]
islam1234@msn.com
[\quote]

Lots to learn from output like this...

Honestly speaking, the movie Slumdog Millionaire is a truly revealing portrait of this so-called Mahabharat called--India. The movie shows the devastating poverty, the slums, the shanty towns, the backwardness, the harsh and atrocious living conditions of India today. Here is the biggest shame of the bloody Indians---The inhuman practice of manual removal of human excrements from dry toilets---with base hands, brooms, and metal scrapes---taken to the dump site on their heads---this act alone, qualifies India as the most shameless, heartless, cruel, barbaric and uncivilized society on earth---bar none. Around 200 Million Dalits or Untouchables are employed in this profession! Progress Indian Style! According to Indian Express, average Indian makes 100/ Rupees per day. Now you know why the Haves push Opium of the masses---Religion and Hindi Cinema. Just chant Hare Krishna Hare Raam and that's all. Poor Hindus--they won't get 72 virgins!

It’s no secret that the vast Majority of Indians still live a wretched existence with unclean drinking water---Not enough food to eat---No health care---Most people in India are still Homeless---Most people in India still are Jobless---Most Indians still do not get three Meals a day---Most of the India is still undeveloped, 70% of Indians are still illiterate, and Most of the Indian children are still badly malnourished or undernourished- --Child Labor is Widespread-- -Most Girls are still Married Off before they attain the Age of Puberty and surprisingly, these Indians are singing—‘Saaray Jahaan Say Achhaa Hindustan Hamaaraa’---incredible! According to a recent survey conducted by the Indian Health Ministry, and backed by UNICEF, almost 46 per cent of the children in India, under the age of three, are undernourished. This is more than the Sub-Saharan Africa region where only 35 per cent of children are malnourished- --And last but not the least, if this Indian Success story is true--Then Why in the State Legislatures across India, the so called Globalization Forces are taking ‘Mother of all electoral Beatings’ at the hands of The Communists? The humiliation, which persons belonging to the lower Castes in general, the Dalits, and the Muslims in particular suffer even today, more than half a century after India proclaimed itself to be a Republic is a matter of bloody crying shame indeed!


SaifDevdas
islam1234@msn.com

Re: # 489 masadi

oh, come on - paki army may be a criminal enterprise, but it is NOT a stalin-ist outfit that can steam-roll over the base public opinion... For large part, paki army has been in sync with paki people (until now) - which is why they have ruled pakiland de-facto/de-jure for last 60 years and people dance in the streets when they take over...

major (moron), Pakistanis have never signed up U.S. wars. Pakistan is not a democracy neither is its military one, nor does everyone have equal access to power for you to blame the people in this dumb a$$ manner.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 485
[...Pakistan has been fighting U.S. wars......The fact is your class has been in bed with the military... ]

Pakistan ka matlab kya - Allah, Army and America... So of course pakiland is fighting america's wars - how else is it going to survive?...

But, it's just not :Hamidm's class" that's the culprit, it's most of the paki nation that has signed on to this "rentier" mentality... even jinnah himself has approved it from the beginning...

Tahmed writes to free-moroni "#480 the question we should ask is - why did it take so long for us to recognize the reality of the taliban? these are a bunch of throat-slitting bandits with overinflated ambitions of not just preying upon the odd victim here or there, but upon an entire nation!!

Ahmad sahib the question we should ask is - why did it take so long for us to recognize the reality of our relationship with the U.S. These U.S. elite are a bunch of genocidal maniacs with overinflated claims to moral superiority, and they do not only prey on the odd victims here and there but destroy whole nations based on lies with impunity. After having destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan recently, they are now after Pakistan and care not about the consequences of their BS on the lives of the 170 million plus in Pakistan.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 479: "like i tell my friend tahmed, pease pull your head out of the sand ...... the first step towards a cure is recognizing the fact that you suffer from camel flu ........"

The disease of depression, that causes you to see the glass as completely empty, not just half empty, is far worse than the "camel flu" that you think affects people who have not been within miles of any camel. While the "camel flu', if there is such a thing, can be cured by a dose of Tamiflu, your depression can not be cured by repeated massive doses of Prozac. The only cure for it lies within you...and that is to see that there are sign of hope an progress in the midst of serious challenges and prevailing doom and gloom. You can't see these signs of hope if you do not consciously and deliberately look for them.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#479 hamidm, these BS rants are fine and dandy but you conveniently forget the fact that for the past over 50 years, Pakistan has been fighting U.S. wars, concentrating on enriching its generals and whoring the nation through military rule to the objects of your worship, the U.S. elite. Its potential has achieved great results for the Americans and that is why whenever they want to start a global war without end they home in on Pakistan and its military. If that potential was directed towards industrialization and building civilian institutions, you can bet your (swine) a$$ that these Malaysias and Taiwans and Koreas couldn't hold a candle to us. The fact is your class has been in bed with the military from the very beginning and your kind of sellouts have benefited from this predatory relationship with the people setup by the Pakistan Military in Pakistan. It is a god damned miracle that the people still survive and go to work and negotiate their day to day existence- much greater than any "potential" with the Wall Street banker when he goes to his office everyday planning and conniving how he is going to fleece the little man through debt.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 481
[...why did it take so long for us to recognize the reality of the taliban?...]

that's because - you are busy branding people as pundit-hate everytime they pointed this obvious reality... LOL... "Reality of taliban" was pretty obvious years ago, but - as arjun mian says - you pakis always live in PakiWorld(TM) where reality has trouble getting in...

Anyhoo - better late than never...

I don't understand why people are allowed to get away with calling "Hindus" as Pakistan's enemies. First of all, not all Hindus want to destroy Pakistan. Secondly, India is not a Hindu country. Thirdly, Pakistan I believe, has normal relations with the only "Hindu" country in the world, namely Nepal. Clearly the third point proves that there's nothing in Hinduism that is fundamentally antagonistic toward Pakistan.

Please stop mixing Hinduism with Indian foreign policy.

I cannot imagine what sort of pressure Hindus in Pakistan must feel every time some nutjob in Pakistan calls Hindus the enemy.

hamidm #479 i dont think you understand the situation pakistan is in - it is now defending itself from this deadly onslaught. in other words, it is at war.

and in wartime, indivduals like you ("Ready, Surrender, Declare we are Fked!!) are called "defeatists". Considered as dangerous as saboteurs.

So, it is you who needs to take your head out of the sand, rather than bleating "we are fked" from the safety and comfort of the Utah while Pakistani soldiers are fighting these devils who were allowed into Pakistan by your "rising sun" musharraf.

#480 the question we should ask is - why did it take so long for us to recognize the reality of the taliban? these are a bunch of throat-slitting bandits with overinflated ambitions of not just preying upon the odd victim here or there, but upon an entire nation!!

Re: # 478, 479, 476, 474,

This is really troubling, folks.

The TTP spokesperson Muslim Khan says that the those whose throats were slit deserved it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oP0eUmXF7bU

If this isn't enough, here is a link containing propaganda videos being circulated by Taliban showing beheadings of our beloved soldiers by these barbarians (caution: this is very violent material and you should only watch it at your own discression. For several days, we have been debating whether we should distribute it but have finally very reluctantly decided to do so because we need to recognize the this ugly reality of what we are facing)
http://islamabadobserver.com/2009/04/25/new-leaked-videos-of-taliban-be heading/

and here is a new blog on the Taliban's violance, containing more reports and videos:
http://talibanviolence.wordpress.com/

So streight from the horse's mouth. No more room for denial. Those Taliban sympathisers who used to defend them by denying their role in these brutal killings must now face reality. Like it or not, they are really as barbaric as they have been portrayed. It's time to stand up to them and bring an end to their brutality.

Re: # 478

riaz mian,

.... like i tell my friend tahmed, pease pull your head out of the sand ...... the first step towards a cure is recognizing the fact that you suffer from camel flu ........

..... the fact of the matter is that you cannot have much of a textile industry when there is no power supply for sixteen hours a day in faisalabad ...... a car dealer friend of mine who sold over three thousand cars sold barely six hundred last year and another friend who supplies parts to japananese and european customers had to set up operations in thailand and is looking at vietnam to keep his customers - they do not want to get caught with their pants down by the taliban ..... and don't tell me about the car dealers in detroit - there is no comparison ....... in the last two three years my sister has been robbed three times - once at gun point - and her tenants were murdered by their servant - all this within a mile of ghq ...... and you can get run over by a hungry crowd if you try to distribute roti from a tandoor at peshawar more which is a few miles from the parliament ........... the good news is that you can buy a four hundred dollar pair of designer sunglasses for three hundred from shaheen opticians in super market if you want to risk going out .........

.... the taliban are just a symptom of the disease that afflicts the entire nation ......

Re: # 460: "i hate to point this out - specilly when we have the horrible hindoos listening in - but where there is smoke, there is fire ........ pakistan is a fckued up country and most of its citizens are in a state of denial ...... there is no "economy, business and industry, financial services sector, defense production capabilities, manufacturing sector, educational institutions, science and technology base" to speak of because there is no rule of law, corruption is rampant and the security situation worse than baghdad ......."

I think your ignorance is compounded by your stubbornness to stay ignorant....as demonstrated by your assertion of falsehoods in your comments. With friends like you joining with "horrible Hindus", as you describe them, to bash Pakistan, who needs enemies. You talk about the Taliban being an existential threat to Pakistan. Your renunciation of your faith and the denunciation of Muslims does not bother me as much as the pervasive pessimism you reinforce here on Chowk. It is far more of a threat to the future of Pakistan than anything else you say or do.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 462

tahmed mian,

.... you reminded me of the dhobi's starving and abused jackass ..... on the other hand, i am like the wild jackass who might not have any 'potential' but at least i am not deluded and having some fun ............ unfortunately, we both remain jackasses (pakis); fortunately we are better looking than hindoos ............

"(b) Where I live, an unfortunate consequence of the activities of the poonjabis and others is that every South Asian wants disassociate themselves from them. This is sad since such a seperation does not one any good"

++++++

I agree. Both with how Indians are beginning to disassociate themselves with Pakistanis, and how it is not healthy either. Btw, alot of those Indians are Poooonjabis too!

Dash_Dot, you really should buy and read Kenan Malik's new book, 'From Fatwa to Jihad', he traces exactly how this has happened, the rise of the influence of the Jamaati and Maududi disciples, and by implication touches on the breakdown of Indian-Pakistani unity in the UK.

"Don't the Tally Bans remind you of those Hindutva dudes in BangaLore who pull down skirts of women having beers in bars, pulling them by their hair, and burning Valentine Day cards to stay warm?"

+++++

No, those asssholes remind me of the original Tally Bans from your neck of the woods. Taliban have become the default comparison. That's why they are called the Hindu Taliban.

Re: # 473
well that is deliberate because when you genuinely want to make a point you are perfectly articulate. Any how, keep up the good work and just be equal to all.

Re: # 472 my misunderstanding Skeptical.....I blame the bada patiala Pegs from last night :D

And many thanks for the compliment. BTW that "incoherence" is not deliberate - it is genuine ....

Re: # 470
First of all, my reference was not to MUSLIM behaviour in general but chowk interacts. In internet at least we cannot conduct suicide attacks.
Those who interact at chowk are less than the extreme hardcore variety and Riaz Ahmed is frankly less bigot than many other muslim as well as hindu interactors.
I think its the fact that you are a muslim yourself and in your bid to prove secularism and unbiasdness you bend too much on one side. Like Noam Chomsky who is prepared to criticise Israel rather too much to prove his left wing credentials despite being a jew.
Regarding your brilliance, well frankly in my humble opinion you are brilliant in your interacts. I love the deliberate "incoherence" which you at times adopt. Your interacts are thought provoking and devoid of logical fallacies.

Re: # 470 I forgot to add,

above all I am a safron undy wearing hindutva bigot who an make ranjith, gujju and everyone around look like liberal secularist.

:D :P

Re: # 465 The answer is manifold.

(a) Where I live it is the Muslims who have caused the greatest disruption. Not only that they continue to cause it. They are fighting against their own people not only here in the UK but outside the uk as well. The reason is not difficult to discern

(b) Where I live, an unfortunate consequence of the activities of the poonjabis and others is that every South Asian wants disassociate themselves from them. This is sad since such a seperation does not one any good.

(c) I have personally expereinced the threats and their bigotry first hand at work place.

(d) I dislike religion of all forms - esp public displays of piety. I am critical of it all. I have been critical of the other as well.

(e) I am not the most brilliant interactor here - that accolade goes to the likes of Aleph, HP, Hamidm2, neembu, GT, Kaalchakra, Publius, Sadna and many others far more worthy and their league is way above mine. They are the big hitters of chowk. I mean it. I am just an average kind of guy, who has done reasonably well in life (so far).

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05042009/postopinion/opedcolumni sts/just_walk_away_167489.htm

Just walk away from Pakistan.

Re: # 467

Major - Very interesting articles. I am happy that Pakistan is doing so well.

Re: # 451 Raiz Paki
[...interested in learning about Pakistan's economy, business and industry, financial services sector, defense production capabilities,... educational institutions, science and technology base...]

Well paki - we are always learning about details on pakiland from reliable sources. For example: NYtimes is running an article right now on Pakiland's "educational institutions" aka madrassas... there is another article on the front page on your "defense capabilities" as well - apparently your nukes are not safe anymore....

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/world/asia/04schools.html?hp
http://www.n ytimes.com/2009/05/04/world/asia/04nuke.html?hp

Riaz Paki will not like this, this is all jewish conspiracy...

After many years of fervent lobbying and deal-making in China, American media companies have little to show for their efforts there and are increasingly shifting their attention instead to India.

.... many companies have been pulling back out of frustration over censorship, piracy, strict restrictions on foreign investment and the glacial pace of its bureaucracy.

.......“There’s this undercurrent, this competition, between China and India. Particularly when they see Bollywood do well.�

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/business/media/04media.html?_r=1&hp

Re: # 456
Once again Dash Dot...religous intolrence on this website is exercised by all....it includes hindus as well as muslims.
why you always bend backwards to prove your secularity by pointing to muslims(or muslas) alone. WHY
You are in my opinion the most brilliant of the interacters and being a secularist, you should CRITCISE all for their religous chauvanism

shankar #436 Good that we agree on the War of the Talibaboons. As for past wars, there was a poem we had in school (The Battle of Blenheim, by Robert Southey), which I just looked up, and which goes like this:

"With fire and sword the country round
Was wasted far and wide,
And many a childing mother then,
And new-born baby died;
But things like that, you know, must be
At every famous victory.

"They said it was a shocking sight
After the field was won;
For many thousand bodies here
Lay rotting in the sun;
But things like that, you know, must be
After a famous victory.

tahmed,
#435

100% agreed.

#450 hamidm: look at the bright side. pakistan doesnt have you inside the country. one less problem.

good morning. i see hindu hemmerrhoids (thanks hamidm) bleeding on chowk - as usual.

Re: # 451

riaz mian,

" find that there is a great deal of misinformation or ignorance, even disinformation, about Pakistan"

.......... i hate to point this out - specilly when we have the horrible hindoos listening in - but where there is smoke, there is fire ........ pakistan is a fckued up country and most of its citizens are in a state of denial ...... there is no "economy, business and industry, financial services sector, defense production capabilities, manufacturing sector, educational institutions, science and technology base" to speak of because there is no rule of law, corruption is rampant and the security situation worse than baghdad ........ most paki industrialists have to set up shop in thailand, vietnam, uae or malaysia to keep there export customers and foreign investors are scared kakaless to invest anything .......... madrassas are not 'educational institutions' and the fauji foundation is not a real bnusiness ......... so let's pull our heads out of the sand before the taliban shoot us in the rear ........

.......... everyone keeps on saying that pakistan has a lot of 'potential' ..... of course ! ..... we are like the dhobi's starving jackass who is waiting for the day the dhobi acutlly carries through on the threat to let him have his way with his nagging wife ...........

Friends, please join us in our faith and become our friends.

bismillahi al r-rahmani al r-rahim
bismillahi al rahman al rahim
bismillah al rahman al rahim
bismi Allah al rahman al rahim
bismillahi-r rahmani-r rahim
bismillaah ir rahmaan ir raheem
bismillah ir rahman ir rahim

Islam, the message of Peace and Love is Allah's gift to mankind. I ask everyone to use their freewill to read the message, understand the message and join us in the faith and freindship.

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood (49:10)

Allah, has shown us the path to follow. There is no need to search for the path. It is there. A muslim is the best of all people.

Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (3:110)

The Prophet (pbuh) was the medium though which Allah spoke, and sent us his gift. The message of peace and love. Read the message and join us in our faith

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves… (48:29)

And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way to triumph over believers [Pickthall – “any way of success�] (4:141)

Joining the faith, will bring you peace and tranquillity of the kind you can never experience otherwise. The brotherhood. the Peace. The love.
Of Allah.

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)

Dear Friends, you all have freewill. Your freewill will tell you what is right wrong. Follow the right and join us in our faith.

(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire (3:10)

But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads, Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron Whenever, in their anguish, they would go forth from thence they are driven back therein and (it is said unto them): Taste the doom of burning. (22:19-22)

Re: # 413
India is a democracy and democracies move slowly but surely. If India decides to make surgical strikes into Pakistan it will be a well thought out move which will factor in all possible reactions.
It is not Musharraf's Pakistan where the army launches a foolhardy (may be clever as the Commando-in-Chief might have then thought) adventure in Kargil without as much as a with your leave from a politically elected Prime Minister, is soundly thrashed and forced to retreat by the adversary, loses 4000 men, refuses to take back dead bodies of its own soldiers and then compels the Prime Minister to beg US to get them out of the quagmire.
The Pakistan proponents would do well to look at its army's past performance before betting them bottom dollar on it.

Re: # 451
Riaz...
Will that blog save your a** from drone attacks?

pabloGanja,

forget it, Riaz Haq is not worth it. Riaz haq is an Islamist Fundementalist, the kind bent on immolating themselves and taking a few others with them. Its a pity!


At the same time he doesnot do his home work well, see his retraction to Alephnull's assault.

Whatever it is, like hasho thinks on chowk he is the only aristocrat (rest are lousy slaves) Riaz thinks he is gods gift to mankind! The reason is not too hard to find

Riaz..
Mr. Beduinoid....

Here is some examples of how Indian/Hindu females are lagging behind musla females...

Our HP lab in Bangalore...
http://www.hpl.hp.com/india/people/index.html

This is from GE Lab, Bangalore....
http://www.ge.com/research/grc_5_1_0_3.html

#424 hamidm2

[...the hindoos are like hemmaroids...]

Actually I have felt many times like comparing muslas to hemorrhoids. When Pakiland (read muslas) was called the "world's headache" by a US official, she probably meant the "world's hemorrhoids". But I could never bring myself to call muslas our collective hemorrhoid. This is because a hemorrhoid, though despised, is part of the body, and therefore personal. So I had to look for some other comparison. I guess the perfect comparison I made earlier was the mangy dog comparison that Muslim editors didn't seem to like (could it be because mo did not like dogs - apparently they used to bark at him - as is well known, dogs have an uncanny ability to sense criminals). The next closest comparison would be that Pakiland and Pakis are like a steaming pile of $hit that we have stepped into, but just cannot seem to be able to shake off of our shoes.

Re: # 451
Riaz...
Yeh, and based on the misinformation people are bombing Pakis.....dumping them back to where they are supposed to be.....all based on mis-information....

Re: # 447
Riaz...

You are skirting the issue...

With all these

Why NATO drones are killing only Pakis and not Indians?
Why the musla countries topping the list of most HR abuses?
Why a person named after your prophet is sent to Gitmo or other jails in US, UK , Spain etc...?

Why muslas are dumped into Pakistan from UK ?

Why female letarcy rate of Indians/Hindus is much higher than musla females living in any musla country?

Why don't your musla countries produce a single Indra Nooyi, Chanda Kochhar, Padmashree Warrior....?

Do you have any answer for this?

Looking at the various interacts on Chowk, I find that there is a great deal of misinformation or ignorance, even disinformation, about Pakistan. Even many well-educated Pakistanis fall into the trap of believing false negative information about their country during various discussion threads. This behavior adds to the currently prevailing doom and gloom about Pakistan which can be very toxic, if not appropriately checked.

For those of you who are seriously interested in learning about Pakistan's economy, business and industry, financial services sector, defense production capabilities, manufacturing sector, educational institutions, science and technology base, and other similar overviews and data, please take a look at South Asia Investor Review blog. It can be easily searched and found using any search engine.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's a story about the tradition of temple prostitution in India from Times of India:

Traditional empires, being despotic, restricted trade to the palaces and temples, forbidding hoi polloi from trading or travelling. Only priests and princes and certain privileged merchants (who were closely regulated) traded and travelled. And one lucrative trade that the priests and princes often monopolised was the oldest and most despotic of all, prostitution.

Temple prostitution was, therefore, a feature of Hinduism and other imperial cultures — and a profitable one too. There were, for example, some 400 women on the payroll at the Rajarajesvara temple in Tanjore in the 11th century. They were procured by priests who roamed the land in search of pretty young girls.

Doubtless the girls were seduced by a theology of mysticism, just as the widows who, as suttees, threw themselves on their dead husbands’ funeral pyres believed they were attaining spiritual purity, but the sexual economics of female exploitation provide a candid explanation of what was happening.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/artic le642206.ece
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Correction:

Besides being a PAIN in the butt, hemorrhoids can kill you too. Even in America, 17 people die from hemorrhoid complications each year. I bet the rate is much higher in South Asia.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 433

Besides being a the butt, hemorrhoids can kill you too. Even in America, 17 people die from hemorrhoid complications each year. I bet the rate is much higher in South Asia.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's a story about the status of widows in Shining India today:

VRINDAVAN, India (CNN) -- Ostracized by society, thousands of India's widows flock to the holy city of Vrindavan waiting to die. They are found on side streets, hunched over with walking canes, their heads shaved and their pain etched by hundreds of deep wrinkles in their faces.

These Hindu widows, the poorest of the poor, are shunned from society when their husbands die, not for religious reasons, but because of tradition -- and because they're seen as a financial drain on their families.

They cannot remarry. They must not wear jewelry. They are forced to shave their heads and typically wear white. Even their shadows are considered bad luck.

Hindus have long believed that death in Vrindavan will free them from the cycle of life and death. For widows, they hope death will save them from being condemned to such a life again.

"Does it feel good?" says 70-year-old Rada Rani Biswas. "Now I have to loiter just for a bite to eat."

Biswas speaks with a strong voice, but her spirit is broken. When her husband of 50 years died, she was instantly ostracized by all those she thought loved her, including her son.

"My son tells me: 'You have grown old. Now who is going to feed you? Go away,' " she says, her eyes filling with tears. "What do I do? My pain had no limit."

As she speaks, she squats in front of one of Vrindavan's temples, her life reduced to begging for scraps of food.

There are an estimated 40 million widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married.

It's believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a city of about 55,000 in northern India.

"Widows don't have many social rights within the family," says Ranjana Kumari with the Center for Social Research, a group that works to empower women.

The situation is much more extreme within some of India's rural community. "There, it is much more tradition-bound; in urban areas, there are more chances and possibilities to live a normal life."

But the majority of India's 1.1 billion population is rural. "The government recognizes the problem," Kumari says. "It can do a lot, but it's not doing enough."

One woman, a widow herself, is working for change. Dr. Mohini Giri has formed an organization called the Guild of Service, which helps destitute women and children.

Giri's mother was widowed when Giri was 9 years old, and she saw what a struggle it was. Then, Giri lost her husband when she was 50, enduring the social humiliation that comes with being a widow. At times, she was asked not to attend weddings because her presence was considered bad luck.

"Generally all widows are ostracized," she says. "An educated woman may have money and independence, but even that is snatched away when she becomes a widow. We live in a patriarchal society. Men say that culturally as a widow you cannot do anything: You cannot grow your hair, you should not look beautiful."

She adds, "It's the mind-set of society we need to change -- not the women."

Seven years ago, Giri's organization set up a refuge called Amar Bari, or "My Home," in Vrindavan. It has become a refuge for about 120 of India's widows. Giri's organization is set to open a second home, one that will house another 500 widows.

But as she says, "Mine is but a drop in the bucket."

At Amar Bari, most widows reject traditional white outfits and grow out their hair. Along the open air corridors that link the house's courtyard are green wooden doors, leading to dark tiny rooms, home for each widow. Photo See the widows of Vrindavan »

Bent over by osteoporosis, 85-year-old Promita Das meticulously and slowly sweeps the floor just outside her door and then carefully cleans her dishes.

"I came here when I couldn't work anymore. I used to clean houses," she says. "Nobody looked after me, nobody loved me. I survived on my own."

She married at 12 and was widowed at 15. Seventy years later, she finds herself at Amar Bari. "I used to live in front of a temple, but then I came here," she says.

She carries with her not only the pain of a life without love, but also the loss of her only child. She gave birth at 14; her baby lived a year.

Another widow, Ranu Mukherjee, wearing a bright red-patterned sari, shows off her room at the home and wants to sing for her guests. The lyrics of her song are about a lost traveler.

"When did you come here after losing your way?" she sings. "When I remember the days gone by I feel sad."

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/07/05/damon.india.widows/ind ex.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 441
Riaz..
Mr. Beduinoid, this is ultimate of your mohamedanism( bluff)...
Thirumala temple sells maximum amount of hair...In Indian custom, every child (bellow the age of 5) has to donate hair to their family god/goddess...and even people after getting their desired result ( either in business, examination...) donate their hair to the god...
Anyhow, mr. bluff master, you have not answered my query...
after all this why Pakistan is "most dangerous place on earth", "cause of international migraine" and moslem countries dons the top slot in human rights abuse cases....

any reply from you mr. beduiod?

#441 Posted by RiazHaq on May 3, 2009 6:31:16 pm
Re: # 418 Anil: "If in a society 1,400 years ago, 40 year old widow can run a successful business and marry a younger person, that society must have been very advance."

Riaz,
Anil probably has no clue abt what he is talking abt. she was not running some cotton ginning factory. The business was trading. Her husband ran the business and after he died, her brother was in charge of the business and later on it was taken over by mohammed. She never traveled with the business nor she visited the market selling her goods.
These fact are available in many historical documents. If anil had bothered to research a little before writing whatever he wrote.

"The Hindu widows often have their head shaved and left in temples to fend for themselves. According a story I read in the Wall Street Journal a few years ago, Hindu temples are biggest source of human hair used to make wigs in the United States."

Hindus go through ritual head shave in lot of South Indian temples, mainly Venkateswara temple in Tirupati, Andhra Pradesh. This hair is sold by temple authorities and the money is used in running many hospitals under their trusteeship. The hair is not from widows. India has many ills and we are completely aware of them and we do not deny them like you, but what you wrote above is not one of them.

There is a reason for most of us Indians not liking Pakistan. Your country is huge head ache for the India and rest of the world because your country actively supports global terrorism no matter how much you deny. Until Kasab's identity was proved, every 2 bit analyst on chowk was claiming that the Mumbai attack was done by Indian intellgence agencies just like the Parliament attack.
Anyways i don't want to disturb an ostritch (thx to hamidm) continue with your rants Mr Worldwide.

Re: # 441
Riaz..
Mr. Beduinoid, still Pakistan is most dangerous place on earth and most of the top 10 countries in terms of worst human rights record are musla countries...

Can you please explain this?

Re: # 437
Salim Ch...
This is ultimate beduinistic claim...Comparing Bangalore (2nd "Silicon Valley") with Pakiland ( most dangerous place on earth)!!!!...

Re: # 418 Anil: "If in a society 1,400 years ago, 40 year old widow can run a successful business and marry a younger person, that society must have been very advance."

There you go again! Using exception to prove the rule, not unlike use of Muslim tokens in India to prove your pluralism and secularism while ignoring the reality of disproportionate unemployment, poverty and illiteracy among Indian Muslims.

If you bother to learn about pre-Islamic Arab society, you'll discover that women were disinherited completely and many infant girls were buried alive. Some of these evil practices from Jahiliyah still persist in different forms in India. Demographic data shows female infanticide and female fetus abortions are common and rising in India. Ultrasound technology is being widely abused for gender-selected abortions. Women are still commonly disinherited in India. The Hindu widows often have their head shaved and left in temples to fend for themselves. According a story I read in the Wall Street Journal a few years ago, Hindu temples are biggest source of human hair used to make wigs in the United States. Women who do not bring sufficient dowry are burnt alive and made to look like an accident.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

439 contd...
Mr. Beduinoid, your country missed top 10 in worst human rights list...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/rightsindex/0,,201749,00.html

....and surprisingly, there are some non-musla country as well...

Re: # 407
Riaz...
Mr. Beduinoid, that is the reason, NATO forces are stationed at the boprder of Pakiland and hellfire missiles are raining on Pakiland...and Pakiland has more disapproval rating than any other country in the world...

Anyhow, inbred -retards like you should not try to interpret caste system...in needs some human sense...not beduinistic stupidity....

Re: # 423: "Would you mind giving me the page reference to Perkovich's 'explanation' that you referred to above, so that I can be edified?"

I was wrong. I misremembered the origins of where I read the differences. But fundamentally, Von Braun's V-2 (1939) was the beginning of the missile age, and elements of its design still persist in modern systems. After the end of the Second World War, both American and Soviet forces rushed
to capture German rocket scientists. Von Braun and others from Peenemünde were sent to Huntsville AL. All of the modern missiles, including American, Russian, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, basically originated from V2 and successors modified in different ways by different nations.

Ghauri I and II are different from Nodong in important ways...Ghauri's guidance system, course correction and trajectory control (using multiple gyros)are much more sophisticated than in the Korean design. It is generally accepted that Ghauri I and II are much more precisely targeted than Nodong or Taepodong.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Pablo Ganja #430 {"By the way you should call them Telly Bans, it is more evocative of cavemen smashing televisions and banning men and women from watching Hundoos in Bollywood"}

Ganjoo Bhai,
Don't the Tally Bans remind you of those Hindutva dudes in BangaLore who pull down skirts of women having beers in bars, pulling them by their hair, and burning Valentine Day cards to stay warm?

hey hey ho ho
hussein haqqani got to go
==========
Our man in Washington
Hit and run

Monday, May 04, 2009
Shakir Husain

Ambassador Haqqani wants the US to give us counter-terrorism training which we have been stonewalling against until very recently. He wants the US to give us night vision goggles. I would like him to know that they are being sold in Peshawar as I write this. It would cost the government of Pakistan $3.6 million to purchase 1,000 AN-PVS 7-3, third generation, night vision goggles. My napkin math tells me that this could be financed by selling 22,500 square-yard plots in Islamabad. He wants equipment to knock out FM transmissions from the extremists, yet he forgets that during the 1971 war, the government of Pakistan was blocking the BBC World Service. Blocking FM transmissions is a high school science project at best. The ROZ’s are another example of the ridiculous. These regional opportunity zones are designed to give market access to these regions.

Read the complete article about how stupid Hussein Haqqani appears to a paki.....or is just another conspiracy of JI to discredit the civilian paki govt. of mr 100%...or is it ganja pehlavan's siyaasat?

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=175716

#422 shankar: we can agree or disagree on past wars, but we can agree on one thing - india needs pakistan to win this War of the Talibaboons almost as much as pakistan needs to win this war.

"You are using the same tactics that the Brits and Americans have used to demonize all Muslims...nothing more, nothing less. This is clearly not conducive to any reasonable discourse. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for resorting this kind of labeling"

++++++

Riaz, I have used reason and cited writers and instances for you, and explained why your apologia for the horrible form of extremism and the reckless violence against innocents it manifests as, is upside down, immoral and as we say in England, arse over head. As much as you try to bait-and-switch and talk about demonization, it would do you some good to reflect on the reality of how Islamic extremism grew in the UK, how talk of it being a response to 'marginalisation' is erroneous and craven, and how equating imaginary marginalisation with the forms that supremacist reaction takes amongst SOME (note 'some') Muslims is obscene. Your instincts are clear. Try reading my post dispassionately. I have cited British Muslim authors in there.

#424 Hamidm: "the taliban present an existential threat to pakistan whereas the hindoos are like hemmaroids "

ha! ha! that kind of wraps it up.

just look at these pictures of what is today's puristan:

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/05/04/world/20090504SCHOOLS_i ndex.html

Re: # 414: "Now I am convinced you are an Islamist, Riaz."

You are using the same tactics that the Brits and Americans have used to demonize all Muslims...nothing more, nothing less. This is clearly not conducive to any reasonable discourse. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for resorting this kind of labeling.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"So, now we are going to get into a pissing contest about who is hurting more?"

+++++

Honestly, no pissing contest my friend, I just don't see a bunch of Sylhetis oozing into India being as much of a problem as getting cut in half is all.

By the way you should call them Telly Bans, it is more evocative of cavemen smashing televisions and banning men and women from watching Hundoos in Bollywood to spare their souls as I understand some of those knuckle draggers have done in the past. As we know one glimpse of a Hindu in full lyrical flow is constantly subversive and can lead to total breakdown amongst the Ummah.

Shankar #422 {"YOU LOSE"}

Shankar Bhayya,
You are trying TOO HARD to convince me that Pakis lost in '48, '65 and THAT CONSTANT HINDU HEMORRHOID called Kargil. LOL

Arey Bhai,
You won clearly and completely in '71 - now don't get greedy or we will detonate Kassab Payee remotely. :)

PabloGanja #425 {"Ultimately the fanatical element that takes issue with India from Pakistan is hurting you more than us, and the same for Bangladesh. For sure they have issues with India, I hope we can treat them with respect and fairly no matter what happens. The armies of Taliban bearing down from the west upon you is more of an immediate concern."}

Mian Ganjoo,
So, now we are going to get into a pissing contest about who is hurting more? Or, in other words, which is a bigger menace, the Hindu Hindutva Hemorrhoids or the Muslim Tally Ban Swine Flu?
You bet the Bangladeshis are pissed off at the Injuns. After all, you guys took away their railroad tracks, bijli kay khambay, and even their best looking girls to decorate Sonagachi and Grant Road. Pretty soon, they will be the majority in Assam, West Bengal, and even Mumbai. :)
As for the Tally Ban, I am almost certain that the Paki Army is pumping up the volume to maximize the aid from Bama.

Hamid mian

Pakis just added another 10 million to their count of unwashed masses:

[He said Pakistan is an important country of 180 million people and...]

Sunni Tehreek to take on Talibanisation: Qureshi

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009�5�4\story_4-5- 2009 _pg1_7

What is going on in pakiland? They just keep on inflating their population numbers, or are they actually producing some more walking-talking bombers to continue their fight against their own unwashed masses.

#424 Hamidm2 {"the taliban present an existential threat to pakistan whereas the hindoos are like hemmaroids "}

Hamidum Sahib,
LOL! Thank you for the kind welcome. Yes, I have every disdain for the Tally Ban (and more importantly their supporters and dispatchers). As President Hussein has demonstrated, we can multitask and combat the Tally Ban swine flu along with the bloody Hindu hemorrhoids simultaneously.
We could send the Tally Ban all the way east, but then we have to keep them away from Baramula - if you know what I mean. :) The problem with the stupid Tally Ban is that they think My Man Manmohan Singh, with his saintly beard, is a momin while both Mr. Ten Percent and Boob Fondler are clean shaven kaafirs. Now, where is that chikna pappoo Jawaharlal when you need him? Even Vajpayee, slow as he was, could be useful. I am rooting for Advani with his close shave, but with our luck, the horrible hindus will probably elect Narendra Modi with his week-old Arafat beard. Enjoy your Strohs. :)

"You forget that your own Bengalis are not the calmest of people and having a Bengali magnet right next door, not to mention the religious fanaticism that can emanate from the east just as it can come from the west, and ...."

+++++

Yeah, but that's not going to be worse than being cut in half. Ultimately the fanatical element that takes issue with India from Pakistan is hurting you more than us, and the same for Bangladesh. For sure they have issues with India, I hope we can treat them with respect and fairly no matter what happens. The armies of Taliban bearing down from the west upon you is more of an immediate concern.

salaim mian,

.... it is nice to have you back ..... i have put the mission to liberate kashmir from the chungals of the horrible hindoos on the back burner until we can exterminate the taliban vermin .......... it is a matter of priorities ..... the taliban present an existential threat to pakistan whereas the hindoos are like hemmaroids - they might hurt like hell, but they won't kill you ...........

Mr. Haq,

In case you missed it, let me ask you to read my #375/#376.

In response to your remark in #353

{{You should also read Perkovich who explains how Pak missile designs are different from North Koreans and Chinese.}}

I dug out my copy of Perkovich's book and using the index read through all the references to subcontinental missiles. Alas, I could locate no such 'explanation'. I did however find several references to the Chinese supplying M-11 missiles to Pakistan, for instance.

Would you mind giving me the page reference to Perkovich's 'explanation' that you referred to above, so that I can be edified? I know you must have it handy - since you seem to have a lot of quotes available to post at short notice.

Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Salim_Chauhan,

{{Oye! Jhoot not! 48 and 65 were draws. Yes, '71 was a loss}}

Win & Lose War depends on :
Is the OBJECTIVE accomplished?

48--Objective--Pak wanted whole of Kashmir.
It failed. Now make all excuses you want (pathan sexual appetite!). If "mission" not accomplished ; you LOSE.

65--Objective--IOK. Failed; you LOSE.

71 - Indian Objective--defeat Pak in East & kick your sorry asses in the West. Mission Accomplished. You LOSE.

Same can be said about Kargil.

Make any excuses you want; spin doctor it any way you want; you LOSE:)

Its like losing a tennis match and boasting about a couple of aces you served!

Just so you dont accuse me of being an arrogant jingoist (but, like I said we are all bigots)---the Chinese kicked out sorry asses in 62. We know that; & dont irritate them like Pakistan irritates us.

#419 Posted by PabloGanja on May 3, 2009 3:04:59 pm
{" would mean that Bangladesh would cause India to be split in half. Are you really saying that is what Bangladesh is going to do to India? Come on now. Whatever issues arise, it's not going to be as drastic as that."}

Ganjoo,
You should be that lucky! :)
Sometimes a clean break (even in two) is the kindest cut of all. You forget that your own Bengalis are not the calmest of people and having a Bengali magnet right next door, not to mention the religious fanaticism that can emanate from the east just as it can come from the west, and ....

{"#341 Posted by Hasho on May 3, 2009 9:20:33 am
....
Raiz, we have gone thru this debate and here are the salient features of Indian response.

1. India built it to fight China not Pakistan"}

Hasho,
Wrong! Indians couldn't even come up with poisoned chopsticks if their defense against China depended on them.

"Bangladesh is going to cost India much more than it has cost Pakistan. Mark my words"

++++

That would mean that Bangladesh would cause India to be split in half. Are you really saying that is what Bangladesh is going to do to India? Come on now. Whatever issues arise, it's not going to be as drastic as that.

Re: # 409

Riaz:

"...bigotry in marginalizing its Muslim population is what bred the Muslim bigotry against the Brits.."

It seems your attacks start at the earliest by boxing non-Muslims in "extreme bigotry" or "bigotry" against Muslims. I know that you have powerful arguments still in your armory.

You tried doing that to me, just because I tried to use positive example of Muhammad's life to explain, and also to use Muhammad's life example, so that people like Masadi do not jump into attacking, as his ilk does not like to attack their prophet. Let me give you a new one.

If in a society 1,400 years ago, 40 year old widow can run a successful business and marry a younger person, that society must have been very advance. Despite the fact that you like to call that society Jahiliaya. They can hardly be Jahils as I understand what it means. You may view it as an attack or Muhammad, or like me an evidence that pre-islamic Arbia was very advance also. Muhammad saw an opportunity and grabbed it to become one the finest humans of all time. Quite alike Bill Gates who saw an opportunity grabbed it, and became world's richest man, to lose out to Buffet.

Even if you call me, "extreme bigot" against Muslim, do you think that will change my view?

"...If you are Muslim (regardless of your nationality), you'd better watch out..."

Why don't you be honest, and first ask why now Brit bigotry against Muslims, and not against Indians?

When I was a student there, for Brits all were Pakis and subject to racial slurs. What happened since then? Answers will stare you, if you want to be honest.

When you summarily dismiss and box people, one thing is for sure, you will never find the root cause. Wherever the problem may lie, and why would you not accept that at the slight whiff of trouble people would act against potential trouble makers. Isn't that exactly you did to me to term "extreme bigot" against Muslims?

I am neither defending Brits, I have experienced my share during my student life; not am I defending Arjuns of this board. However I am pointing to you that people like you can lead introspection and fix your end of the ship for sure, irrespective what happened first. That is a chicken and egg problem. Right now your end too needs fixing up.

Why must you put all Muslims on the defensive?

It is completely unnecessary, and almost as fascist as Nazis tried to categorize to create fear.

Many may expect better from you. You attack other's one-sidedness, and then all that you have done since you have been here is lop-sided at the very least.

I for one is willing to understand it as your anger at others for what you perceive as unfair attack on your personal beliefs and religion. Why then you are not willing to accept that Arjuns of this board may also have anger.

Once I attended an Art of Living lecture at Stanford. One thing I always remember was the comment on Anger.

Anger always is about past incidences. No one can change the past, and an angry person may effect his/her presence and future and not others. Others simply don't care, or those on whom you are angry, they simply have moved on to even know that you are still angry.

Sadly your acts in anger bring out a racist in you, because you automatically lump non-Muslims and assign a tag, out personal experiences and interpretations.

You even go on to warn all Muslims irrespective of country or origin. Yet another racist and bigoted attempt.

This oneness of non-Muslims and Muslims for opposite reasons that you project and perceive is truly skin deep. Else issues would be different, actually very different.

Should you be relentless in your methods?

I am at loss, as to why sensible persons including yourselves, indulge in such bigoted and racist approach? I am certain you know that the approach you take cannot solve problems. On contrary it will and it does bring more fodder out for Laddus, Arjuns of this board.

{"#411 Posted by muqaddam on May 3, 2009 1:52:55 pm"}

MQM Damn!
Please allow me to correct you as best as I can. My corrections to your comments are in BOLD.


{"Pakistan's nuclear programme is far superior to India's,"}
I wouldn't say far superior, but definitely in quality but not in quantity.

{"India's missile programme is lagging behind Pakistan's"}
FALSE

{"Pakistani army is much stronger than Indian army"}
Perhaps, in its financial portfolio, but considering the state of most financial and real estate markets, even that is doubtful. Paki army is much weaker than the East Korean Army.

{"Pakistani growth in outsoucing business is much faster than India's"}
Only if you are talking about the fact that Pakistan will be outsourcing its defense and government to Uncle Bama soon.

{"Pakistan's economy is more resilient than India's----------------!!!"}

Pakistan's economy is more resilient than any other country's. How else do you account for Pakistan having an economy after all the plagues, dictatorships, calamities, and looting that it has endured?

{"With this overwhelming superiority it is not understood why:
- Pakistan could not annex the Kashmir valley in 60 years"}
Pakistan was poised to take the Kashmir Valley in 1948, but the ancestors of today's Tally Bans made a side tour of Baramula to impregnate some nuns against their will, and the rest is history.

{"- Pakistan could not retain Bangladesh"}
You are forgetting the slight detail concerning the intervention of the Indian Army

{"Pakistan lost the 48, 65, 71 wars"}
Oye! Jhoot not! 48 and 65 were draws. Yes, '71 was a loss, but then when all is said and done, Bangladesh is going to cost India much more than it has cost Pakistan. Mark my words.

{"- Pakistan had to shamefully vacate Kargil heights"}
Perhaps and maybe Pakis have no shame when it comes to running with our tails between our legs. But, please explain me one thing, while Pakis keep complaining about East Pakistan and '71, it seems to me that the Indians do complain a bit too much about Kargil - is it possible that the one with the more seriously bloodied nose is crying the loudest? Honestly, I don't hear many Pakis lamenting Kargil they way they lament East Pakistan or the way Indians cry oceans about Kargil. Was it perhaps a Pyrrhic victory?

{"- Pakistan could not capture Siachen"}
Siachen was and is Paki territory. Just because Kassab Payee and his comrades took over the Oberio and Taj Mahal, it didn't mean that for three days those hotels were part of Pakistan.

{"May be they are just being goodneighbourly to India!"}
Nobody can come close to India when it comes to being good neighbors. You guys invented cross-border terrorism when Pakis and Sri Lankans didn't even know how to spell the term - remember the Mukhti Bahini and the LTTE?

Jamaat-i-Islaami has a massive presence in Britain in the Muslim community, and has had for decades. Maulana Maududi and his hatred of the West and secularism etc etc has had his ideas disseminated in the UK in certain mosques and by groups for decades. The first generation of Pakistanis in Britain had no time for this because they were too busy working hard. The next generation had it easier, and could spend time on spreading the message of how the West and Britain are dens of vice and to be hated that people like Maududi preached.

These are the facts, Riaz. Islamists in Britain were channeling the issues of Iranian Khomeini-ist hatred of the west, and Deobandi-Wahaabi ideology emanating from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia long, long before even 9/11.

Read the recently published book 'From Fatwa to Jihad' by the British Muslim writer Kenan Malik to understand all of this.

oh my god, riaz is still wandering around unmedicated!! Who let him out of the asylum??

Somebody please call a doctor - we need emergency supplies of anti-paranioia drugs and maybe even electro-shock therapy.

"The British bigotry in marginalizing its Muslim population is what bred the Muslim bigotry against the Brits"

++++

Now I am convinced you are an Islamist, Riaz.

Muslim extremism, and suicide-bombing terrorism, pre-dates 9/11. Wahaabi and Salafi money has been pouring into British Muslim communities for years.

But what I find most repulsive of all is your apologia for terrorism ... that in some way any prejudice that individual Muslims might face is morally equivalent to planting bombs around your waist and carrying out suicide-murder terrorism against innocent children, women, and men in trains and buses in London.

I urge you to read the novel 'The Black Album' by Hanif Kureishi, and see the movie 'My Son the Fanatic' which he wrote the script for, to understand how this supremacist hatred, based on Islamic extremism originating in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, became a reality amongst some British Pakistanis. And this was all happening in the 1980's and early 1990's.

Also, if it is the case that British prejeudice has led to Muslim supremacist hatredm why have Indians and Blacks, who also face racism in Britain, not resorted comparable levels of hate-preaching against white people, and against democracy, Britain, and secularism? And why have minorities who are persecuted by Muslims in Muslim countries not carrying out the forms of extremist violence we see in Britain?

British Muslims are amongst the most free Muslims in the world. Only Muslims in America can compare with the freedoms and priveliges that British Muslims have. And yet there are still elements, funded and encouraged by ideological extremism from abroad, who preach hatred and supremacism.

Riaz, you just justified, and apologised for suicide-bombing and terrorism. Shame on you

Re: # 411

In spite of all the talk by Indians at home and abroad about "doing a Lebanon" to Pakistan , India has not dared do that. As Sashi Tharoor put it: "It's India's Israel envy."

On NPR show "Talk of the Nation" a couple of months ago, the Indian callers jammed the phone lines and everyone to a person asked Sonmini Sengupta of NY Times, "Why don't we launch strikes in Pakistan?". Her response was simple: "It's easy for you to say that sitting in the US. But we in India know Pakistan will respond swiftly and massively to any strikes by India. And we're all within the reach of their missiles." She was referring to a statement by Gen Kayani.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 411

What is it? An India-Pakistan political cricket match? Could we ever grow up? Could we stop bragging over our so-called achievements and start discussing our failures? Pakistan has 122 million poor. India has 825 million poor. It is a shame that both build nuclear weapons and not clean drinking water taps. We are both led by brain-damaged thieving scoundrels.

Pakistan's nuclear programme is far superior to India's, India's missile programme is lagging behind Pakistan's, Pakistani army is much stronger than Indian army, Pakistani growth in outsoucing business is much faster than India's, Pakistan's economy is more resilient than India's----------------!!!

With this overwhelming superiority it is not understood why:
- Pakistan could not annex the Kashmir valley in 60 years
- Pakistan could not retain Bangladesh
- Pakistan lost the 48, 65, 71 wars
- Pakistan had to shamefully vacate Kargil heights
- Pakistan could not capture Siachen

May be they are just being goodneighbourly to India!

#409
Yeah everybody is bigoted against the muslims. Blame the Brits now.

Playing the victim mentality & rattling the begging bowl are 2 things that you civilized
guys go very well.

7/7 wasnt carried by hindus. You have "earned" that Islamophobia.

Re: # 382: "Indeed such bigotry we see here in the UK, as well. If it is not directed towards Indians, it is towards the English. It is this lack of understanding which results in a great deal of trouble and trauma."

The British bigotry in marginalizing its Muslim population is what bred the Muslim bigotry against the Brits. Most recently, there were terror allegations and high-profile arrests of Pakistani students in England which turned out be based on falsehoods. In fact, the evidence was not just thin, it was non-existent and the courts released all of the so-called "terror suspects". Islamophobia and the fear of the changing demographics favoring Muslims in Europe are driving this behavior. And I expect this anti-Muslim hysteria in Europe to get worse in the coming years.

If you are Muslim (regardless of your nationality), you'd better watch out.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

{{Some of us are much more civilized than others....especially those of us who do not believe in the reprehensible, inhumane, caste system that is based on bigotry.}}

LOL...those very egalitarian muslims are hating killing each other based on sect, ethnicity & tribe...thats not bigotry?

2 civil wars in 60 yrs .. CIVILISED?!!..cant even govern yourselves...look in the mirror

wait...dont...you look homely enough to pass off as as...gasp..Indian!!

Re: # 402: "When it comes to pissing matches on Chowk, we are ALL bigots."

Some of us are much more civilized than others....especially those of us who do not believe in the reprehensible, inhumane, caste system that is based on bigotry.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 371

Brahmos, built with Russian help, is about two years behind Pakistan's cruise missile Babur.

It does not fundamentally alter anything in terms of the power balance. Besides, Indian claims have proved to be inflated, even false, in the past, as seen in the report I posted #367.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"If the brits were so concerned, why were they not helped before 7/7/2005?"

++++

Helped with what? What do the Brits have to help them with? The point is, you don't have to have help off anyone, you just need to integrate and not cut yourself off from mainstream society.

Re: # 320

No. The Ahmadis are oppressed in Pakistan. We LOL over what we are talking about but the Ahmadis don't. Neither do dalit.

Yeah show them mirror and they complain of abuse.

What dash wrote was clearly bigotry and has nothing to do with the topic here. He decided to take the conversation away from the Brahman pride and make it Indian- paki issue and how pakis are bad in UK.

These same pakis have lived in the UK for more than half a century now but there was no problem. All of sudden they are in the eye of the strom because the so called war on terror. that is all there is to it.
If the brits were so concerned, why were they not helped before 7/7/2005?

We hear lots of self righteous nonsense from the BNP too.
1947 made them Pakistani before that they were Indians how their behavioral was going to change, had they landed in UK as Indian.

If India had a complete control of Kashmir, they would have been Indians. I wonder what the reaction of dash type bigots would have been then.

ajeya,

I agree with you about India's conventional superiority. Pakistan has lost every war its fought with India. In that respect they are like what the British say of the French, "never won a war in the 20th century, but damn proud of their military".

{{will not dare to use nukes unless they want to commit mass suicide - which would be highly unlikely - at least if the general Paki masses have any say in it and even otherwise.}}

I wouldn't bet on it. Look at the mentality..Riaz is a perfect example ...their minds operate in a different dimension...even at the brink, they will go down believing...
AT LEAST WE ARE BETTER OFF THAN THE HINDIANS

When it comes to pissing matches on Chowk, we are ALL bigots.

dashy dot

Hasho is very free with his abuse! There is something of a running joke on unplugged that he cannot write a sentence without calling someone an idiot, so being called a bigot is part of the same comical and funny knee-jerk continuum.

However, the cult of victimhood is one of the things stopping some sections of the Pakistani community from tasting the fruits of modern multi-cultural society, and anyone who wants to shine a light on a worrying drift of insularity in some parts of the Pakistani community ultimately has their best interests at heart. I believe the major assault to multi-cultural harmony in the UK is not coming from the majority community, it is coming from the extremists that preach hatred of 'infidel Britain' and even produce suicide bombers.

Look at the people who died in the 7/7 suicide-bombings and you can see how multi-racial Britain is. To be frank, it is affecting all of us negatively, this drift to separatism.

Alright...none of my business.
Serves me right to occasionally wander into Chowk & butt into conversations:)

But please ....whats up with you guys changing your nicks all the time?

dude is Arjun?
HP is Hasho?

#394 shankar


[Yes, & they can nuke the crap out of us too...so..whats your point?! ]

Point is that India can squash them like a bug in conventional warfare - and they will not dare to use nukes unless they want to commit mass suicide - which would be highly unlikely - at least if the general Paki masses have any say in it and even otherwise.

And this point is a simple one that always escapes Pakis and their enablers.

Re: # 396 neither, Shankar.

Re: # 395 Thank you PabloGanja. You said it. I said the same before and more clearly in #393 - but then we will be considered bigots by brother HP.

I guess that is the burden we have to bear.

Dash_Dot

I'm confused...so are you an NRI, or a NRP?

"Most of the Pakistan in England were recruited from the poor sections of the population in Pakistan for exploiting them as cheap labor. They did not land there on their free will. MOst of them had never even heard of Manchester in their whole poor, miserable lives. Now only bigot Brits have problem with them."

+++++++

Hasho, lets get one thing clear. The Pakistanis who emigrated to Britain 'exploited' Britain as much as Britain 'exploited' them. Pakistanis benefited greatly from the work and prosperity they found in British society. They were not enslaved or forced to come to the UK; they came of their own free will. They were not tricked into becoming indentured labourers like Indians who were taken to Trinidad.

Pakistanis in Britain are not some kind of enslaved class, and their experiences are not special or separate from the experiences of Indians, Sri Lankans, Jamacans, Trinidadians, Irish, Polish, Cypriots or Nigerians in the UK.

To be frank, a section of Pakistanis in the UK is drifting into self-ghettoisation and separatism, and this in turn feeds into extremism and fundamentalism. The London suicide-bombers all came from well-to-do, materially comfortable Pakistani families from Leeds. TO not acknowledge this is just being in denial.

ajeya,

{{You agree then that we can squash you like a bug, then?}}

Yes, & they can nuke the crap out of us too...so..whats your point?!

and for the record HP this is what I said below,(I suggest you read it carefully before you make yourself more of a foool with your name calling)


For the record, pride in Brahman does not exist - its like saying I have pride in allah. Brahman and allah and God do not require your pride. If they do, they should not exist but should be eliminated.
You have rpide in being a Sindhi, a Sufi, Pride in your lineage (which you have stated many times here), Pride in everything else man-made but never Allah, God, Brahman. You can have pride in your marxist knowledge, the Brits can have Pride in the fact that allowed Marx to right that book using their resources, Russians can have pride in their achievements and in Lenin or stalin. Now you get the drift - HP. There is a fundamental disconnect happening here, in the haste to use insulting-rhetoric which is really only insulting ones own intellect. That is the kind of hara-kiri Riaz is

Re: # 387 name calling HP. You are reducing yourself.

- and your natural curiosity made you read the rest of the post just in case....

Having moved miles, it is natural that the first generation congregate together. That is extremely natural, specially in an alien environment.And if you have come from a sunny country, landing in Bradford is daunting, and miserable without a doubt. This first generation were extraordinary brave and had a strong character to withstand the change. But what about the second generation? There cannot be any excuse for third generation to be also like that. These subsequent generations are satisfied in their own little cocoons - and they are unable to show the hardiness of character which the first generation had shown. Its a pity.

It is not bigotry, HP, but questioning and searching for reasons.

AS for the bigotry in India - that is their problem. Bigotry of any form diminishes them more than it diminishes others. And yes, the same can be said about the ghettoisation by the hindus who deny others from living amongst them. I will say that what I said about Bradford applies there as well. the difference being, I have experience of UK, but none of India.

#389 Hasho

[Yes you touched a raw nerve. I never credited you with anything but I just did not realize how bigotry is part of your system. ]

Oh, and I thought it was YOUR country with a bigoted and communal constitution that forces non-muslims to accept a Koran-compliant legal system?

You Pakis ARE deluded. Common logic is incomprehensible, eh? Pinhead?

#373 Hasho

[blah blah blah....defending brahmins...blah blah blah...running around UP and FP asking questions about Brahmin pride...blah blah blah...Most Brahmin's are..blah blah blah... are you worried abt Brahmin....blah blah blah.....you are not a brahmin...]

Hasho,

Isn't it true that Pakistan has nothing to compare with India's strength and technological prowess? You agree then that we can squash you like a bug, then?

Keep running around in your banana republic shouting brahmin this..brahmin that - it will do you a lot of good.

I heard your Taliban govt has inmposed jizya on hindus and Sikhs (although I cannot imagine how hindus and sikhs can live right inside the belly of the beast) - congratulations! And it was your parliamanet that approved imposition of sharia in Swat, eh?

Oh, and another question - why does your Paki army ALWAYS lose? Must be difficult to be the loser ALL the time. Hahaha.... :)

Yes you touched a raw nerve. I never credited you with anything but I just did not realize how bigotry is part of your system.

hp, :D :D

I see I touched a raw nerve.....
I will accept that you have not read the rest of the interact. That is your prerogative.

So a similar formulation for Pakistanis by Indians should not bother you, I guess. Yet, isn't this precisely what is happening here.

A lot of Pakistanis have been here in the UK for years, and yet, they are unable to understand the English, and carry on with their stereotypes which in turn leads to ghettoisation. (it works both ways but being the incoming population, they need to make some move further outwards).

---
Dash,

Well I decided to read that post and I can see your bigotry shining through all the way to the bottom of the post.
These exactly the words that some bigots use here for Hispanic, mostly Mexicans immigrants.

Most of the Pakistan in England were recruited from the poor sections of the population in Pakistan for exploiting them as cheap labor. They did not land there on their free will. MOst of them had never even heard of Manchester in their whole poor, miserable lives. Now only bigot Brits have problem with them.

" let me assure you will find it difficult to buy property in Bradford - because you are not from Mirpur."

And exactly thhe same thing becomes excusable in India where some major celebrities complain of denials by the property owners.

This is what is called metthaa, mettha hap hap, karrwa, karwa tho tho.

You are a bigot and a bootlicker.

hp the correct terminology is Brahmin pride, not Brahman pride.
---

Wrong and I don't have to read the rest of your post.
Brahman is the word used in English.Like the Boston Brahmans. Brahmin in India may be the correct pronounciation but for us Pakistani Brahman is the correct word as we are not familiar with Brahmin.

Sorry but we had Jatt, and casteless Hindus, sikh etc in our part of the world hardly any Brahmin.

Main Entry:
Brah·man
Variant(s):
or Brah·min \ˈbrä-mÉ™n; 2 is ˈbrÄ?-, ˈbrä-, ˈbra-\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English Bragman inhabitant of India, from Latin Bracmanus, from Greek Brachman, from Sanskrit brÄ?hmaṇa of the Brahman caste, from brahman Brahman
Date:
15th century
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Brahmin

dude40000 #379

{{He is become an expert at using selective information to prove his argument. At best it can be called ignorance and at worst its ingenuinity.}}

Yes, I know this very well (BTW, i believe the correct word is 'disingenuousness'). Still, since Riaz Haq has claimed that a book I've read, and own, describes how 'Pak missile designs differ fromm North Koreans and Chinese", I've asked him to provide page references so that we can all confirm it from the source (even if it is selective information).

The malodorous troll is back with 40000 instead of __-a_--103.

Welcome back the site was not the same without you. I had to search the papers for real news instead of getting it from one source.

u bet u know i am correct. but that will not stop your masochistic jalna bhunna inside. that is ur inescapable karma - and may u wallow in it for eternity.

hp the correct terminology is Brahmin pride, not Brahman pride.

It is the terminology that I am querying, that there is "brahmin pride" is not being questioned. There is Brahmin pride, and I have no doubt about it, HP.

You need to acknoledge that wrong terminology is used, which results in the main points being ignored. That is my case. So in what Riaz has said, there is some sense, but his argument goes out of the window, when he displays ignorance and bigotry of a kind which would send shivers down anybodies spine.

Indeed such bigotry we see here in the UK, as well. If it is not directed towards Indians, it is towards the English. It is this lack of understanding which results in a great deal of trouble and trauma.
A lot of Pakistanis have been here in the UK for years, and yet, they are unable to understand the English, and carry on with their stereotypes which in turn leads to ghettoisation. (it works both ways but being the incoming population, they need to make some move further outwards).

Forget the stereotypes against the Egnlish, HP as a Sindhi, let me assure you will find it difficult to buy property in Bradford - because you are not from Mirpur. Even if you were from Mirpur, you would not be able to buy a property in any street - because all the others were from a different street in Mirpur. Which is idiotic, you would agree, but that is the case.

Ignorance, not erudition is the issue here. For the erudite people around, the ignorance can be occasionally breath taking, and jarring.

For the record, pride in Brahman does not exist - its like saying I have pride in allah. Brahman and allah and God do not require your pride. If they do, they should not exist but should be eliminated.
You have rpide in being a Sindhi, a Sufi, Pride in your lineage (which you have stated many times here), Pride in everything else man-made but never Allah, God, Brahman. You can have pride in your marxist knowledge, the Brits can have Pride in the fact that allowed Marx to right that book using their resources, Russians can have pride in their achievements and in Lenin or stalin. Now you get the drift - HP. There is a fundamental disconnect happening here, in the haste to use insulting-rhetoric which is really only insulting ones own intellect. That is the kind of hara-kiri Riaz is committing.

Re: # 380

Banjara - You are correct. We can't convert you - your country is a suicide bomb doctored through education during last 60 years. Its impossible to change the mind of a suicide momber.

Heck - can't blame a guy for trying though.

the indian interactors on this board, and other boards as well, apparently believe that if they keep on barking incessantly it will somehow validate their propaganda about Pakistan and demoralize Pakistanis. these idiots are so blind that they can't even see that after years and years of non-stop Pakistan bashing they have not been able to convert a SINGLE Pakistani to their obscene view point. one would have thought that after decades of shouting themselves hoarse even the most stupid buffoon would have sobered up, but not these Indian jokers. one day their ashes too, like those of their frustrated ignoble leaders before them, will end up floating in the Ganges thoroughly intermixed with the rotting caracasses of dead animals alongside. and a well deserved inglorius end that would be.

Re: # 375

AlephNull - you are wasting your time on Riaz. He is become an expert at using selective information to prove his argument. At best it can be called ignorance and at worst its ingenuinity.

here's a whole lot of interesting material in that book that you, Mr. Haq, will never post.

--

Algay, what is preventing you from posting them if they are so interesting. Interesting in your opinion would be the Pak program. let see what you can post.

Karachi will not stop bleeding as long it is run by the Dracula from London. He demands army action against Taliban but when as a result people migrate to karachi from areas under army action, he orders his party to kill them branding them Talibans.

#375

Correction:

"early 1999 announcement of April." should be "early 1998 announcement of the Ghauri missile".

My apologies.

#353

{{You should also read Perkovich who explains how Pak missile designs are different from North Koreans and Chinese.}}

OK, I've fished out my well-thumbed copy of George Perkovich's 'India's Nuclear Bomb: The Impact on Global Proliferation' (University of California Press, 1999). I've used the index entry for 'missiles, ballistic' to quickly scan the references to all missiles and missile programs in the book (from 'Agni' to 'Trishul' by way of, among others, Ghauri, Hatf-I, Hatf-II, ..., M-11, ..., Prithvi, ... Sagarika).

Would you please give me the page reference(s) for where Perkovich allegedly 'explains how Pak missile designs are different from North Koreans and Chinese'?

[For what it's worth, I'm looking at the paragraph at the top of p. 406 that describes Indian reactions to the early 1999 announcement of April. A significant sentence:

"In fact, the United States would reveal in April that the help came from North Korea, not China."]

There's a whole lot of interesting material in that book that you, Mr. Haq, will never post.

Demeanor and self discipline of Dr Kalam has been impeccable and exemplary. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of Khan and therefore there is no clubbing them together
---

And Why not? If you claim that Kalam is the father of the Indian nukes, then he will always be compared with AQ khan. Who cares what his personal demeanor is / was.

#369 Posted by Dash_Dot

As usual you are fighting a losing battle here.

Many Indians including ajaya and nkg have recently supported the caste system and are full of praise for that.
There is no need to be Shah say barah kay Shah.

You are defending brahmins or why else would be running around UP and FP asking questions about Brahmin pride. Most Brahmin's are proud of their religious status and rightly so. The hierarchy of the Indian society makes them proud of their position.

Why are you worried abt Brahmin, if you are not a brahmin?

Re: # 369 As i said earlier my brilliant friend......secularism is for everyone to exercise....hindus and muslims alike

#367 RiazHaq

[blah blah blah blah.......“Pakistan has always been one step ahead of India in its missile programme,� the newspaper said....blah blah blah blah...]

madrassaAlumnus,

So nothing to match the BrahmOs, eh? Hahaha.... :)

Re: # 367

The Mail Today? Never heard of it!

Okay i stand corrected...Ajeya, as stated by him, is a Brahmin.

I am not defending a brahmin - just asking for proper statement of facts and concepts. I need not defend any body for I donot hold a brief for anybody.


Again, this is something which is extraordinary - for you are unable to grasp that maybe a non-hindu Indian can support Indian cause. Just i will support a british cause even though I am not an anglican. But then given the righteous path towards homogeneity in pakistani society, such a demand might not be surprising.

Re: # 366
Demeanor and self discipline of Dr Kalam has been impeccable and exemplary. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of Khan and therefore there is no clubbing them together

NEW DELHI, Jan 9: India’s missile scientists have said that the country’s indigenous missile programme is flagging and needs foreign assistance to revive it.

The embarrassing admission came amid claims by Indian analysts that Pakistan’s missile programme had proved to be more robust and surefooted than India’s. The Mail Today newspaper on Wednesday quoted the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as announcing that it would scrap its 25-year Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) by the end of this year.

“Plagued by cost overruns and repeated failures, the announcement is a virtual admission of failure,� the newspaper said. “In fact, some former chiefs of the different services said as much on hearing the news.�

Speaking of the Trishul surface-to-air missile that has now been termed a technology demonstrator, former naval chief Sushil Kumar said: “It was a national embarrassment. DRDO made fake claims for 25 years. In the 1999 Kargil conflict, the navy was vulnerable to attacks from Pakistan’s Harpoon.

“Finally the project was scrapped when the navy went in for the Israeli Barak missiles. The Prithvi’s naval variant, Dhanush, is also flawed and ill-conceived, which is being inflicted on the navy.�On the Akash missile, which was the subject of the DRDO media conference here on Tuesday, former air chief S. P. Tyagi said: “Akash was to be ready at a certain time, but it wasn’t. I had to change everything to make up for the delay.� Both missiles were part of a programme to develop indigenous weapons, which began in July 1983, with plans for Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag missiles.

The IGMDP, which was aimed at achieving self-sufficiency in missile development and production, comprises five core missile programmes -- the strategic Agni ballistic missile, the tactical Prithvi ballistic missile, the Akash and Trishul surface-to-air missiles and the Nag anti-tank guided missile.

The Mail Today quoted S. Prahlada, chief of the Control Research and Development, DRDO, as saying that development and production of most of the futuristic weapon systems would henceforth be undertaken with foreign collaboration.

With regard to the nuclear-capable Agni series, comprising I and II, the newspaper quoted army sources as saying while they had been tested five times each “a handful of tests are not enough to prove a missile’s worth�.

There were different problems with other systems too.

“Pakistan has always been one step ahead of India in its missile programme,� the newspaper said, adding that Islamabad has “a much more robust missile force than India, one capable of launching nuclear weapons to any part in this country.�

Unlike Indian missiles, which were declared “inducted� after a few tests, the Pakistani projectiles have always been thoroughly tested.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Maqqadam,

I see the you agree with the point. Dr.Kalam is not a nuke scientist, I believe and I can be wrong here and he supervised the missile program not the nuke program. Like AQ is not a nuke scientist. But both got credit due to their administrative posts.
There is nothing fancy in missile technology anymore that needed some specially gifted people. Same is the case with the nuke technology since the 60s.

Many scientists have that ability, the issue is getting the hardware. There is nothing out there to prove that Indians developed the hardware too. It was all Canadian, European with some US components.

I don't have time right now to show some links that explain the whole process that India used. Riaz might have them handy.

RiazHaq

Does Pakiland have anything that is able to neutralize the BrahMos?

No? Hahaha....

To this day, there is no deterrent for the Brahmos, and definitely not for it's hypersonic version. It could take out any Aircraft carrier of any country at will, including other targets.

361 RiazHaq

[blah blah blah blah....like the bunch here Chowk is clearly infected by the false Brahman pride..or totally ignorant of the facts.....blah blah blah blah...
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]

madrassaAlumnus,

Here are some more FACTS:

BrahMos is a supersonic cruise missile that can be launched from submarines, ships, aircraft or land. It is a joint venture between India's Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) and Russia's NPO Mashinostroeyenia who have together formed the BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited.
The acronym BrahMos is perceived as the confluence of the two nations represented by two rivers, the Brahmaputra of India and the Moskva of Russia. It travels at speeds of Mach 2.5 to 2.8 and is the world's fastest cruise missile. It is about three-and-a-half times faster than the U.S.A's subsonic Harpoon[2] cruise missile. A hypersonic version of the missile is also presently under development (Lab Tested with 5.26 Mach Speed).[3]
Though India had wanted the BrahMos to be based on a mid range cruise missile, namely P-700 Granit, instead Russia opted for the shorter range sister of the missile, P-800 Oniks, in order to comply with MTCR restrictions, to which Russia is a signatory. Its propulsion is based on the Russian Yakhont missile, and guidance has been developed by BrahMos Corp.

BrahMos claims to have the capability of attacking surface targets as low as 10 meters in altitude. It can gain a speed of Mach 2.8, and has a maximum range of 290 km.[1] The ship-launched and land-based missiles can carry a 200 kg warhead, whereas the aircraft-launched variant (BrahMos A) can carry a 300 kg warhead. It has a two-stage propulsion system, with a solid-propellant rocket for initial acceleration and a liquid-fueled ramjet responsible for sustained supersonic cruise. Air-breathing ramjet propulsion is much more fuel-efficient than rocket propulsion, giving the BrahMos a longer range than a pure rocket-powered missile would achieve.[citation needed]
The high speed of the BrahMos likely gives it better target-penetration characteristics than lighter subsonic cruise-missiles such as the Tomahawk.[5] Being twice as heavy and almost four times faster than the Tomahawk, the BrahMos has almost 32 times the initial kinetic energy of a Tomahawk missile (although it pays for this by having only 3/5 the payload and a fraction of the range despite weighing twice as much, suggesting a different tactical paradigm to achieve the objective).
Although BrahMos is primarily an anti-ship missile, it can also engage land based targets. It can be launched either in a vertical or inclined position and is capable of covering targets over a 360 degree horizon. The BrahMos missile has an identical configuration for land, sea, and sub-sea platforms. The air-launched version has a smaller booster and additional tail fins for added stability during launch. The BrahMos is currently being configured for aerial deployment with the Su-30MKI as its carrier.

It's Ajeya, not Ajaya.

---

It was also the bansuriwala_ABCD sometime ago.

Re: # 355
A noteworthy observation. What was stated in my post was what was actually said by a Pakistani participant in a live debate on Pak TV. As far as Indians are concerned, Dr Kalam will always be remembered as a great Indian scientist.
As for bracketting him with Abdul Qadeer Khan, Dr Kalam never stole drawings from a European employer nor was he tried for theft and one does not remember him starting his own enterprise and selling sensitive secrets for his personal gain. AQ Khan has been called variously including a nuclear terrorist due to his actions which unfortunately the Pakistani government, dictated by the Pakistani army, continues to support.

Re: # 356

Any Indian who derisively talks about Pakistanis' capabilities like the bunch here Chowk is clearly infected by the false Brahman pride..or totally ignorant of the facts. I think many of you Indians who are not Brahman sound like Brahman wannabes. That's what the Indian culture does to you....brainwashes you into believing that your status and rights come from the accident of birth....not from being a human person endowed with the ability to achieve whatever you wish for yourself.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 356 Dash Dot you are brilliant...........but at times you do have a tendency to go over board to prove that you are secular.
I have seen religous chauvanism from both hindus and muslims on chowk. But you only pick muslim chauvanism because you are yourself a muslim( and you have to bend backwards to prove that you are unbiased and secular). Do not get me wrong here...please. I think religon should be avoided in intellectual discourse and it holds true for both Muslim and Hindu bias towards their religon.

#358 Hasho

[I don't know abt others but Ajaya is a Brahmin. At least he has written that on many occasion. May be he too is lying like many other who claim to be Christians, secular, non religious, agnostic and what not but in the end just support the Hindu causes. Like you are doing defending the Brahmin. ]

It's Ajeya, not Ajaya. That's a Sanskrit-derived term - like your Sanskrit-derived mother tongue - Urdu.

There is not one Brahmin arguing with you here - there is an arch conservative christian, a muslim, and another non-hindu India.

---

I don't know abt others but Ajaya is a Brahmin. At least he has written that on many occasion. May be he too is lying like many other who claim to be Christians, secular, non religious, agnostic and what not but in the end just support the Hindu causes. Like you are doing defending the Brahmin.

#353 RiazHaq

[....false brahmin pride.....blah blah blah blah....]

Shaurya
The Shaurya missile is a short-range surface-to-surface ballistic missile developed by DRDO of India for use by the Indian Army.It has a range of 600 km and is capable of carrying a payload of one-tonne conventional or nuclear warhead.The Shaurya missile provides India with a significant second strike capability[28]. Shaurya Missile is considered a land version of the Sagarika. This missile is stored in a composite canister just like the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile. The composite canister makes the missile much easier to store for long periods without maintenance as well as to handle and transport. It also houses the gas generator to eject the missile from the canister before its solid propellant motors take over to hurl it at the intended target. Shaurya missiles can remain hidden or camouflaged in underground silos from enemy surveillance or satellites till they are fired from the special storage-cum-launch canisters.DRDO Defence scientists admit that given Shaurya's limited range at present, either the silos will have to be constructed closer to India's borders or longer-range canisterised missiles will have to be developed.The Shaurya system will require some more tests before it becomes fully operational in two-three years. Moreover, defence scientists say the high-speed, two-stage Shaurya has high manoeuvrability which also makes it less vulnerable to existing anti-missile defence systems.[29]. When Anti-Ballistic Missile Systems AAD and PAD are to be tested again, the Shaurya invulnerability to anti-missile systems will be tested. The DRDO scientists also have said that if Shaurya is successful and manages to avoid anti ballistic missile radars then the missile can even be used to improve the AAD and PAD systems.


[28] ^ http://www.hindu.com/2008/11/14/stories/2008111456561300.htm
[29] ^ "India successfully test fires Shaurya missile". Times of India. November 13, 2008.

Re: # 353 Riaz with every post, i can see you fall into the usual propagandist stands. The wrong, and factually incorrect assertions from you, make your arguments irrelevant - pig ignorance from an erudite man.

e.g
his is usual racist nonsense we hear from Indians. It again comes from the false Brahmin pride not unlike the European racism that accuses others of stealing everything from them

There is not one Brahmin arguing with you here - there is an arch conservative christian, a muslim, and another non-hindu India. And yet your ignorance or pig-headedness is unwilling to accept this and you go on you horse with a whip which just disturbs the air, and does not even cause a small scar on the backs :D :D

Now see what I mean, you are losing your argument with inconsequential stuff which does not even cause mild irritation :D :D

The Pakistanis found it hard to believe that India's integrated missile system was so ably being overseen by a Muslim scientist.

Maqaddam,

If you think abt it seriously, your calling him a Muslims scientist instead of an Indian scientist shows the really depth of communal problems in India.

He was an Indian scientist and Pakistani had every right to deride him like you deride AQ khan.
You need to take pride in his being an Indian scientist and not a Muslim scientist.
The scientists all over the world are known by their nationality and not by their religion.

Re: # 347: Hasho "Ask these guy individually and only a Brahmin would proudly tell he is a Brahmin and the others will sheepishly tell you abt their caste."

Thanks for pointing it out. Actually, I'm quite familiar with the Indian culture...particularly the false pride of the upper caste Hindus and how they hold others in contempt...particularly their fellow Hindus but Muslims too.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 340: "Pakistan's indigenous techical capability should be regarded as highly suspect. What they might have is a gift from China. It should properly be regarded as a semi-independent component of China's arsenal."

This is usual racist nonsense we hear from Indians. It again comes from the false Brahmin pride not unlike the European racism that accuses others of stealing everything from them.

Anyone who is interested in understanding that "indigenous technical capability" is no one's exclusive preserve should read "Lost Discoveries" by Dick Teresi. Here's what he says:

" I began to write with the purpose of showing that the pursuit of evidence of nonwhite science is a fruitless endeavor. I felt that it was only responsible, however, to attempt to find what meager legitimate non-European science might exist. Six years later, I was still finding examples of ancient and medieval non-Western science that equaled and often surpassed ancient Greek learning.

My embarrassment at having undertaken an assignment with the assumption that non-Europeans contributed little to science has been overtaken by the pleasure of discovering mountains of unappreciated human industry, four thousand years of scientific discoveries by peoples I had been taught to disregard. "

You should also read Perkovich who explains how Pak missile designs are different from North Koreans and Chinese.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 347 Hasho,

yes it is Brahmin pride - now you have used the right term/phrase here.

Nothing called Brahman Pride.

AS to me being a wannabe - I aspire to being like Valmiki, Christ, Einstein, Pasteur and a few others. I will not hide that. As to whether I will, may be I will tell you after a few more of these patiala pegs (T)

#348 Hasho

[Btw, I am not even planning to read that. ]

I know. It would hurt too much. :)

Re: # 345
That was never in doubt. The Pakistanis found it hard to believe that India's integrated missile system was so ably being overseen by a Muslim scientist. Dr Abdul Kalam's contribution was recognised by the nation and the Hindutva party BJP took the lead to see that his contribution in the nation building was aptly rewarded by making him the President of the Republic

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction):

With the exception of sourcing plutonium from the CIRUS class reactor for the 1974 nuclear weapons test, India's nuclear program has been almost entirely developed without foreign assistance, due mainly to a total nuclear and missile technology embargo and severe sanctions regime imposed on India after it conducted the 1974 nuclear explosion at Pokhran. In a briefing to Congress on the United States-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Cooperation Act, then U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said, "[India] has a 30-year record of responsible behavior on nonproliferation matters."[75]

[75] Our Opportunity With India, Condoleezza Rice, The Washington Post, March 13, 2006

Ajeya,

I can edit that link, do you know that? Any one can post on wiki and you will find many contradcition of this on wiki.

Btw, I am not even planning to read that.

Riaz,

Dash_dot is wanna be Brahmin so it is natural for him to be upset. The Brahmin pride is very much alive and in existence despite many denials here.

Ask these guy individually and only a Brahmin would proudly tell he is a Brahmin and the others will sheepishly tell you abt their caste.

If you live in the US test that with the Indians you meet.

#341 Hasho

Islamist Paki idiot, check out this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

I ndia is least concerned about the Paki "threat". Pakistan is a small banana republic that only has nuisance value for India. Pakiland is a bug that can be squashed at will. India is a global power, and is only going to be more and more powerful in the days to come.

#343 Posted by muqaddam

---

That was point number 3 in my post.

So your claim is that India developed the technology by itself..

Re: # 336

Here's a direct quote from Perkovich's book: "The lack of intelligence on the test and general Indian contempt for Pakistan's technical capabilities caused some in India to assert that the test was a hoax."

Where do you think this "contempt" comes from? Are you unaware of the implications of the caste system in India that gives Brahmins false sense of superiority based on birth? Is it different from racism?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 340
The missile technology was obtained by the Pakistanis from North Koreans as part of their nuclear proliferation policy spearheaded by the disgraced nuclear physisist Qadeer Khan.

Re: # 329 BTW I red flagged your little ditty there -

because
(a) it is wrong
(b) it is mired in ignorance

The red -flag is deserving because
(i) you are an educated person
(ii) very erudite

If it was some other i**** I would have ignored it.

the offensive phrase is "Brahman Pride" - no such thing.

And heck even in a drunken stupor I would not commit such a blunder!

India needed to test for technical reasons because their designs are home-grown and need actual validation.

---

Thats a joke algay? isn't it?
Tricking Canada and all that was just learning the technology.
Raiz, we have gone thru this debate and here are the salient features of Indian response.

1. India built it to fight China not Pakistan.
2. India developed the whole technology from a to z.
3. Pakistan got technology from China, N. Korea and some other countries.
4. Indians did not even know that Canada had nuke technology.

You are dealing with some really ignorant types who would never admit that Indian foreign policy is Pakistan-centric and Indian nukes were really meant to harass Pakistan. There was no other purpose and there will never be another one.
Though in the end the Indian policy backfired...

#329

{{Read "India's Nuclear Bomb" by Perkovich}}

I have read Perkovich. It is an OK - though not perfect - record of facts. Of course you will not mention any facts that undermine your agenda.

{{the author talks about the intolerant pride of the Brahman caste that first "dismissed" and then was "shocked" to learn that}}

Perkovich's editorialising is another matter - it is almost as agenda-driven as yours.

{{Pakistan had extensive nuclear and delivery capabilities....not one but two missile programs.}}

Yup - two Pakistani missile programs. They are called the PRC (M-11s and M-9s) and the DPRK (Nodongs - renamed Ghauris).

All this from a country that to this day cannot put even a pingpong ball into low earth orbit.

{{BJP would not have proceeded with testing the bomb, had they known that Pakistan was equally capable and serious about maintaining deterrence that would neutralize India's conventional superiority.}}

Pakistan's indigenous techical capability should be regarded as highly suspect. What they might have is a gift from China. It should properly be regarded as a semi-independent component of China's arsenal.

India needed to test for technical reasons because their designs are home-grown and need actual validation. In any case, their arsenal is aimed as much at the PRC as Pakistan. There were multiple drivers behind the decision to test - the fact that Pakistan makes the biggest racket does not mean it was the sole or even primary one. Forcing Pakistan to test - using imported Chinese maal - and suffer consequences, was a secondary political goal for India.

The rest is your usual self-serving Paki wishful thinking.

#338 RiazHaq

[I don't find this story credible. I believe Pakistan's strategy was.....blah blah blah blah....
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]

No kidding? And I thought Paki strategy was simply to bend over...

How interesting...

Re: # 333: "There is another side to the story. Intelligence suggested that Pakistanis were about to explode the device and the Indians just exploded the big one to beat them to it."

I don't find this story credible. I believe Pakistan's strategy was to be a screw-turn away from the bomb, without actually building it...not unlike the Iranian strategy now. This would still be a deterrent, without the extra expense of a nuclear arsenal.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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And BTW you are more than a few years late in your analysis. On Chowk we have heard about this (what you here), read the book, and have extensive discussions on this.


should have been

And BTW you are more than a few years late in your analysis. On Chowk we have heard about this (what you have said here), read the book, and have had extensive discussions on this.

#329 RiazHaq

[To Indian bigots with their false Brahman pride, here is a suggestion:

blah blah blah blah......

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]

from bbcnews(http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7730157.stm):

India sends probe on to the Moon


India's first unmanned lunar spacecraft, Chandrayaan 1, has sent a probe on to the surface of the Moon.
The probe, painted with the Indian flag, crashed into the Moon's surface at 2034 (1504 GMT), the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) said.
During its controlled plunge, it took readings including measurements of the composition of the Moon's atmosphere.
The mission is regarded as a major step for India as it seeks to keep pace with other space-faring nations in Asia.
The BBC's Sanjoy Majumder in Delhi says the success of the mission has been hailed in India where many see it as another sign of the country's emergence as a global power.

Earlier this week Chandrayaan 1 began orbiting the Moon some three weeks after it was launched from a space centre in southern India.

The dropping of the Moon Impact Probe (MIP), weighing about 30kg, concludes the first phase of the mission.
"During its descent from Chandrayaan 1, an onboard video camera transmitted lunar pictures to the ISRO command centre," spokesman S Satish said, AFP news agency reports.
For the next two years, Chandrayaan 1 will map a three-dimensional atlas of the Moon and also check for the presence of water-ice with the help of instruments built by India and other countries including the US, Britain and Germany.
The chairman of India's space programme, Madhavan Nair, has described the mission as 95% successful so far and has announced a second lunar mission to be launched by 2012.
"We have now successfully put our national flag on the lunar surface," he told a news conference.
Mr Nair has also said India is considering sending a satellite to Mars.

Depressing, eh, madrassaAlumnus?

Brahmin "haters" making stuff up, eh? Islamic banker?

Re: # 329 riaz Haq To Indian bigots with their false Brahman pride, here is a suggestion:

For a man of your apparent erudition you do show your pig ignorance in abundance. It is not "Brahman Pride" - there is not such thing as "brahman pride" never existed in all of India history. I will leave it to your ability to find the right word and phrase!

Could ask you to trouble yourself to read up a little, before putting your foot into it.

And BTW you are more than a few years late in your analysis. On Chowk we have heard about this (what you here), read the book, and have extensive discussions on this.

Re: # 329
There is another side to the story. Intelligence suggested that Pakistanis were about to explode the device and the Indians just exploded the big one to beat them to it.
Had Pakistanis been the first to explode, they would have walked away with the awe of the world. There is a veracity to this because the tit-for-tat from pakistan was too swift leading everybody to believe that they were in any case ready to show to the world that they had caught up with India.

Re: # 331
Riaz - I hope you are right.

Re: # 330

Reading all the headlines, it seems to me that this livewarjournal.org clearly has an agenda. It emphasizes only one side of the story while discounting/ignoring all the other sides.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Very interesting analysis of the military situation on the ground in FATA and SWAT:

www.longwarjournal.org

Unfortunately, the Pak army is losing the war - slowly but surely.

To Indian bigots with their false Brahman pride, here is a suggestion:

Read "India's Nuclear Bomb" by Perkovich in which the author talks about the intolerant pride of the Brahman caste that first "dismissed" and then was "shocked" to learn that Pakistan had extensive nuclear and delivery capabilities....not one but two missile programs. In all likelihood, BJP would not have proceeded with testing the bomb, had they known that Pakistan was equally capable and serious about maintaining deterrence that would neutralize India's conventional superiority. It's been a big strategic blunder for India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 325 muqaddam

Like Anthony Hopkins says in the movie "The edge": "what one man can do - another man can do"... pakis are indeed capable of achieving more, but that's besides the point...

pakis are stuck in their own make-believe world of rampant bedouinism and hate... it's a downward self-filling spiral... I don't see a easy way out of the hole pakis have dug for themselves...

#324 dude40000

[Ajeya - I dont't agree that this happens in only "some" sections. I was brought up in Delhi, stayed in a Delhi hostel and the hostel was full of people from very diverse backgrounds (religion and castes) all over India and we shared food/drink. Sure, there were some people who didn't like to share stuff - but they were the exception. ]

I went to a hostel too - where there were students from all over India. My experience has been very different in this regard. And this is the same experience I've had all my life with ALL my associates, friends, relatives etc. It came to me as quite a surprise that there are people that share spoons etc.

Anyway...enough on this.

#315 freehussaini

[As we go forward with time, many of us retain our hangovers. India, with all its technological advancement, needs cultural changes freeing the dalit from discrimination and economic persecution. The dalit issue is a drag on the development of the human resources of India. ]

Yes, unless India "solves" the dalit "issue", India is never going to progress.

Yup. That's what holding us back. Not "solving" the dalit "issue". Chowk is full of brains like this FreeHusseini and Tahmed.

Indians and Pakistanis are for the most part from the same stock. So if Indians can do something, the Pakistanis can do it , too. After all there was no Pakistan or Islam for that matter when India made great advances in language, literature, grammar, mathematics, science, diplomacy, economics in the BC era, so if they want (and they must), the Pakistanis can claim as their own all the advances made by Indians in the pre-Islamic era. Likewise, if presently India is doing well, it does not mean that the Pakistani people are incompetent. It is just that their true potential has not been realised because right since inception they have not had the good fortune of having mature and wise statesmen at the helm to steer the country through the formative years. The country has been ruled mostly by a shortsighted and bigoted military-mullah-bureaucratic triumvirate, the cornerstone of whose policies was a singular agenda of hating India.

Re: # 322
Not "believing" in germs does not make them go away. It is entirely possible that as you say there are some sections of the Indian society where they don't have the same traditions. I did not know this, but I guess that's true, now that you mention it.]


Ajeya - I dont't agree that this happens in only "some" sections. I was brought up in Delhi, stayed in a Delhi hostel and the hostel was full of people from very diverse backgrounds (religion and castes) all over India and we shared food/drink. Sure, there were some people who didn't like to share stuff - but they were the exception.

#319 dude40000

Even otherwise, I think it makes perfect sense to be queasy about having other people's bodily secretions in one's mouth.

#319 dude40000

[Re: # 318

I am an Indian Hindu and I don't believe in sacha jhootha and share my food drink with any person - Hindu, Muslims, lower caste, upper caste. So, I guess its not a hindu thing its just a the way people are brought up in their respective households. ]

Not "believing" in germs does not make them go away. It is entirely possible that as you say there are some sections of the Indian society where they don't have the same traditions. I did not know this, but I guess that's true, now that you mention it.

#312 RiazHaq

[For those of you who are seriously interested in learning about Pakistan's economy, business and industry...blah blah blah blah....
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]

The Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) is a nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine being constructed for the Indian Navy at Visakhapatnam, India.
The submarine is a part of India's US$2.9 billion project to construct 6 nuclear submarines and the submarine is expected to enter trials by the end of 2009. India will also be leasing Russia's K-152 Nerpa to familiarize itself with the operation of nuclear submarines.

Details

The ATV is an SSBN and will be armed with the ballistic missiles like the 750 km range Sagarika missile, or possibly a sub-launched variant of the 3500 km range Agni-III missile. The missile has been successfully test fired six times, and tested to its full range up to three times.
The former Chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission confirmed that the light water reactor for the submarine is constructed at Kalpakkam.

The nuclear reactor has been fitted into the submarine. The first submarine of the class is anticipated to be launched in 2009 for sea trials and by the year 2010 three submarines of the class will be in commission by the Indian Navy. The first time the Indian public and media will be able to see the submarine will be in January 2009, when the government will take out of the dockyards for a "ride", though the tests will commence much later. Recent reports suggest that the launch is postponed to mid 2009 due to some delays. During Aero-India 2009, the Defense minister of India, A.K Anthony said that the submarine is in the final stages of completion.

Depressing, eh madrassaAlumnus? :)

Re: # 315 freehussani
[... The dalit issue is a drag on the development of the human resources of India...]

thanks for that pearl of wisdom man, we didn't know this... LOL...from now on, we will do what you said - we will provide all opportunities to the depressed classes - reservations in jobs, education, seats in legislatures... wait a minute, we are already doing that... hmmm... bummer... A former dalit person is Chief Minister of the largest state, may even become Prime Minister someday... But never mind...

BTW - is a qadiani allowed to call his mosque a mosque, or just a "place of worship"... is he allowd to say "salam alakum"... may be not... LOL

Re: # 318

I am an Indian Hindu and I don't believe in sacha jhootha and share my food drink with any person - Hindu, Muslims, lower caste, upper caste. So, I guess its not a hindu thing its just a the way people are brought up in their respective households.

#313 dost_mittar

[freehussaini#295:

That was a strange question. I don't drink from a glass used by anyone, including my wife and children. My children, on the other hand, don't mind licking ice cream licked by their friends. These are cultural differences and quite apart from significant caste-based discrimination. ]

Actually this is a good point. I have discussed this with my wife many times. I have seen that Muslims are used to sharing each other's spoons, plates etc., whereas we hindus would never use the same spoon that another person has eaten from (regardless of caste). I remember once we went to a restaurant from our office, and one hispanic girl in our group did not like the ice cream she had ordered, and after eating one spoon puched it away. The Indian muslim girl sitting next to her just took the spoon from her and started eating the ice cream with the same spoon.

Ewww!!!

My wife grew up in a city where there are lots of muslims, and she knew many muslims growing up. So she informs me that this is the way with muslims - they have no hygiene sense in THIS regard - this is probably the arab influence.

Re: # 315

Of course, I agree with this statement, which is quite different from the example you gave earlier. We have this concept of "sucha-jootha" which is independent of the caste system. I won't be surprised if it is prevalent among subcontinental Muslims as well.

Re: # 294 Posted by hamidm2 on May 3, 2009 6:05:58 am

hamid mian,

[.. you, on the other hand, are evil - i am sure you have the mark of the devil on your forehead ...] what about his ankles?

Re: # 313

As we go forward with time, many of us retain our hangovers. India, with all its technological advancement, needs cultural changes freeing the dalit from discrimination and economic persecution. The dalit issue is a drag on the development of the human resources of India.

Re: # 284 Posted by hamidm2 on May 3, 2009 4:59:31 am

hamid mian,

[.. how many are left? ...] 170 million and counting..

[...everyone says there are only fifteen thousand ....] this is only for the first batch of money pakis want from the west. after this money is given, the US accounting office will be unit pricing the war games as to how much the US is paying the paki military per head. You know they would be unit/pricing the war.

[how long will it take to kill the other three thousand five hundred ? ] another 18 months, because that is when kiyaani is to retire and become the chief executive of some cereal company.

Hope this helps you to understand the current foreign policy team in puristan. You must admit, this land of pure will never have existential threat, because the ruling cabal thrive economically on chaos. The only problem is that now that puristan's population has exploded to 170 million, membership in this cabal is shrinking because of their own greed.

freehussaini#295:

That was a strange question. I don't drink from a glass used by anyone, including my wife and children. My children, on the other hand, don't mind licking ice cream licked by their friends. These are cultural differences and quite apart from significant caste-based discrimination.

For those of you who are seriously interested in learning about Pakistan's economy, business and industry, financial services sector, defense production capabilities, manufacturing sector, educational institutions, science and technology base, and other similar overviews and data, please take a look at South Asia Investor Review blog. It can be easily searched and found using any search engine.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 275 Posted by hamidm2 on May 3, 2009 4:30:30 am

hamid mian,

[.. i always liked karachi} But alt-f and his bunch will have to check your dna, which is not all that great....or is it? punjoo-pathan mixture is not a good omen in alt-f's world.

[altaph bhai zindabad ! ] now, even I can say amen to that as well. But, these punjoos are a misfit to our way of life and they are jealous. Would you agree?

Re: # 298

LOL.

Re: # 308

Sorry mate, Won't share a drink with a Pakistani ever.

Re: # 307

Great. Thanks. I look forward to sharing a drink with you.

Re: # 295

When would an upper-caste Indian drink water from the glass a dalit drank from?

I do almost everyday.

#305 is to monkeyman2(who is standing in for the original monkeyman from india), sri ram ajeya.

sri monkey man 2: see..like i said, you cant read at the monkey level either. so you keep repeating yourself. just like a monkey thinks that if he repeats his howls long enough, someone will toss him a peanut.

#302 tahmed32

[#301 you, of course, are a great example of the indian education system. i have seen monkeys in a zoo who are better educated.]

Re-posting #297

Tahmed has no shame. When he is unable to answer straight questions, he starts namecalling. You should know this after all these years on Chowk.

#276 hamidm2

[..... i know you haven't been able to answer my question about why the parliament overwhelmingly voted for the imposition of taliban rule in swat...

#300 tahmed32

sri ram ajeya: i answered hamidm's question not once, but twice. ]

Hamidm2,

Didn't you read tahmed's posts that he made not only once, but TWICE??

Misanthrope! Neanderthal! Swindler! Baboon! :)

#301 you, of course, are a great example of the indian education system. i have seen monkeys in a zoo who are better educated.

#293 RiazHaq

[You continue to amaze me with the scope and extent of your ignorance, while pretending to be very knowledgeable. You are nothing but a third-rate bigot incapable of having a civil discourse with any one.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]

Truth hurts, eh, madrassaAlumnus?

Here's another FACT. There was a recent article on Chowk by a Pakistani physicist that to improve (ha ha ha) the standards of Paki Doctorate students, they should have to take the GRE education, and that it is too hard for Paki Doctorate students. I found this almost unbelievable. Look at the IIT entrance exams or even the 2nd rate Indian engineering or medical school entrance exams. About 100 times harder than GRE.

What a joke!

sri ram ajeya: i answered hamidm's question not once, but twice.

hamidm #296 because democracy is the worst form of government - except for all the alternatives.

#295 freehussaini

[When would an upper-caste Indian drink water from the glass a dalit drank from? ]

Either...
a) after muslims let women enter their places of worship,
or...
b) when muslims stop shaving their pubes and rubbing their pubes with stones....

:)

#276 hamidm2

[..... i know you haven't been able to answer my question about why the parliament overwhelmingly voted for the imposition of taliban rule in swat...]

Tahmed has no shame. When he is unable to answer straight questions, he starts namecalling. You should know this after all these years on Chowk.

calling tahmed,

.... can you please explain to me what is preventing the 'elected' government from restoring the constitution ? ..... don't tell me it is the ghost of musharraf .........

Re: # 274

When would an upper-caste Indian drink water from the glass a dalit drank from?

Re: # 291

urstruly,

.... this is a serious discussion between a prophet wannabe and his potential disciple, so please stay out of this ........

...... unlike you, tahmed mian is a harmless but naive well wisher of pakistan ...... you, on the other hand, are evil - i am sure you have the mark of the devil on your forehead ...

Re: # 274:

You continue to amaze me with the scope and extent of your ignorance, while pretending to be very knowledgeable. You are nothing but a third-rate bigot incapable of having a civil discourse with any one.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#290 hamidm: i have been called many names on chowk. But hardly ever has anyone been able to make the name stick by pointing to anything i actually wrote. So, that namecalling means nothing.

You on the other hand think you can predict the future without uncertainty. And I am accurate in saying that your aspirations to being a Nabi are beyond being even a stretch.

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Re: # 288

tahmed,

.... so you are saying that you believe the government which is in the process of establishing darul qaza in swat, negotiating with an outlawed organization and then killing them at the same time?

..... look, you officially hold the title of 'prophetboy' so you should be able to explain all this to me ........ as you well know i don't believe in nabis, like that character from naco libre i believe in science .........

i mean, i dont have to be actually smart on chowk. just smarter than than you. (as the man said to his buddy as both were being chased by a bear - i dont have to be faster than the bear. just faster than you).

#267 i dont have to be clever to tell you that God didnt appoint you Nabi.

Re: # 286

tahmed,

.... don't try to be clever! .... you know what i am trying to say ..... you might be old but you are not that senile ... yet ...... i am sure you still remember listening to radio pakistan news in 1971 when they kept on telling us that the 'enemy' was on the run even as tiger niazi was unbuckling his pants at the race course in dacca ..... am i wrong to worry about the vearcity of these claims today?

hamidm #284 yes, i am sure you have been carefully monitoring the score. and i am sure you have mathematical proof that makes you a Nabi. but, like i said, that is beyond even being a reach for you.

#283 here, india man. i know you are dying for attention. this is a mercy post for you.

tahmed mian,

...... one more thing ...... i just added up all the taleban that the paki army claims it is killed in the last two months and the total comes to eleven thousand five hundre and sixty eight ............ how many are left? ... everyone says there are only fifteen thousand .... how long will it take to kill the other three thousand five hundred ?

Message of Peace, Love and taqiyya



bismillahi al r-rahmani al r-rahim
bismillahi al rahman al rahim
bismillah al rahman al rahim
bismi Allah al rahman al rahim
bismillahi-r rahmani-r rahim
bismillaah ir rahmaan ir raheem
bismillah ir rahman ir rahim

I once again, every one to see the beaty in the quran. Its message of peace is there. Out of your free will read it, investigate it with the right mind and fairness of thought. Then through your freewill join me in friendship in the faith.

Quran is the greatest message for all mankind, a gift from Allah. Message of peace and love.

Muslim scholars teach that Muslims should be truthful to each other.

There are two forms of lying to non-believers that are permitted under certain circumstances, taqiyya and kitman. One of those circumstances is to gain the trust of non-believers in order to draw out their vulnerability and defeat them.

The Qur'an:

Sura (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Sura (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Sura (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Sura (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Sura (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"





Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).



Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.



Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."



Bukhari (52:271) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.