Arundhati ‘Pakistani’ and ‘Patriotic’ Right-wingers

#215 dost_mittar

[My point is that India does not have a long-term policy to resolve the Kashmir problem. To me, in the long term, India either has to do in Kashmir what China is doing in Tibet or let its Muslim majority decide its future; the policy of buying Muslim Kashmiri's affections has failed miserably and there is no chance of its succeeding in the future also. ]

Dost-Mitter,

On the point we were discussing, then, I am assuming that you agree with me that India has both a legal and a moral right to have Kashmir as part of India.

I agree with you that India does not have a long-term policy. I don't blame India's politicians, though. Their hands are tied. India had a lot of developmental needs, including access to oil. The NATO countries had their geo-strategic needs - mainly oil - too. They still do. This is why they have supported Pakistan for all these years. But all that is changing. Hopefully in the next couple of decades, oil will cease to be a big factor in geo-strategic decisions. This would have far-reaching consequences. Firstly - the end of Islam as we know it. The critics of Islam - and there are many - in the west and all over the world, cannot be silenced any more. Islam will be treated as just another religion - to be dissected and criticized at will. The traditional thuggish approach to silencing critics with murder and intimidation will not work outside Islam-dominated areas. There will be a mass exodus out of this "religion" which will hopefully prompt changes - maybe a more benign form of this "religion" will take shape. As far as Kashmir is concerned - consider this - 1) in a couple of decades, India will be one of the most technologically advanced countries, 2) with the third largest GDP, 3) a veto in the security council, and 4) rapidly leaving the "developing country" status behind. Because of the decreased dependence on foreign oil, Indian politicians can assert their independence in world affairs, and hopefully we will remove Kashmir's special status. This will allow migration into the state from outside, and over time, this alone will take care of things. Oh, and next time there is a major provocation from the wrong side of the LoC, we can take over PoK as well - THIS TIME AROUND, there wouldn't be goras or the Chinese to save their behinds - China and the US would have much more vested interests with India to bother about a much smaller and insignificant country that has nothing to offer - because it's friendship with oil-rich Saudi Arabia would stop paying any more dividends.

Re: # 218 Riaz

"...The resolution called for withdrawal of ALL troops..."

NO,SIR! Check the following UN resolution:

(l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

source: http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm

Note the complete silence/requirement on Indian forces! Also note, that this has not happened to date

Since you still persist in stating, 'India acted immorally and illegally in Kashmir', you simply feed the hardliners who are well aware of the language in the above resolution -- 'illegal/moral' behavior arguments do not wash.

In addition, while India has not suffered a 2nd partition since 1947, Pakistan has paid a heavy price for its Kashmir yearnings. If anything, hardliners in Pakistan are getting strengthened with catastrophic consequences for itself. Many in India feel that Kashmir is harming Pakistan more than it is harming India, and are therefore reluctant to concede anything as long as Pakistan persists in its militaristic approach.

I think that if Pakistan had a stable, development-focused government, Kashmir may well be addressed as numerous European disputes have been settled.

Re: # 217 Pew: ".. initial withdrawal from J&K by Pakistani forces. That has not happened - so Pakistan's occupation is illegal! Indeed unless this happens, the UN resolution says, a plebiscite cannot happen."

The resolution called for withdrawal of ALL troops, Indian and Pakistani, as part of plans for a plebiscite in Kashmir. Instead of working out the details of implementation, it's clear that India acted in bad faith and soon started talking about Kashmir being an "integral part of India".

So India acted immorally and illegally in Kashmir.

That said, I agree that there is still a need to get a resolution acceptable to all parties...Kashmiri leadership, Indian govt and Pakistani government.

Failure to get Kashmir resolved will continue to strengthen radicals on both sides of the divide.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 216 Riaz

Was the original Pathan invasion of J&K under Jinnah's eyes 'legal and moral'?

Well, you know the answer.

Regards, J&K and the UN Resolutions, you probably know that the resolutions ask for initial withdrawal from J&K by Pakistani forces. That has not happened - so Pakistan's occupation is illegal! Indeed unless this happens, the UN resolution says, a plebiscite cannot happen.

The larger point is not one of legality or morality, but what can be practically done. This issue has been debated to death by India and Pakistan and by Chowkies. There is not much life left in the issue. The question is what should be done? I think that Musharraf-Manmohan plan was a good starting point. Making accusations actually invite rebuttals and reduce the issue to one of posturing in which no solution will emerge.

The Indian occupation Kashmir is neither legal nor moral. It's illegal because it violates security council resolutions that binding on all UN member nations. It's immoral because it breaks repeated pledges to the people of Kashmir in late 40s and early 50s by Indian prime minister and various Indian officials. Read here for more details:

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/kashmir-in-context.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya:

My point is that India does not have a long-term policy to resolve the Kashmir problem. To me, in the long term, India either has to do in Kashmir what China is doing in Tibet or let its Muslim majority decide its future; the policy of buying Muslim Kashmiri's affections has failed miserably and there is no chance of its succeeding in the future also.

#209 dost_mittar

[I never said that that India does not have a legal right to Kashmir. ]

So then are you saying that India does not have a MORAL right on Kashmir?

(I sure wish you would make your point directly, not by omission.)

Re: # 207: DM "My chances of finding Nehru's speech are as good as yours;.."

I have posted a video with Nehru's speech pledging plebiscite in Kashmir on ilog titled "Kashmir in Context".

http://chowk.com/ilogs/71912/48173

The Nehru speech is about 23 min into the 46 min video.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's a link to video by Pervez Hoodbhoy on Kashmir:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5799288985759968523&hl=e n
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya:

I never said that that India does not have a legal right to Kashmir.

#207 dost_mittar

Even assuming that he made that speech, as I mentioned, that is not a fact that will stand in ANY international court of law, because IT WAS HIS OWN GOVERNMENT that signed the treaty WITHOUT ANY SUCH CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO IT.

So, based on that, are you willing to concede that you were wrong on your point no. 1, so we can proceed to the next point?

ajeya:

My chances of finding Nehru's speech are as good as yours; I have seen it referred to in many places, including, a book by Justice Mehar Chand Mahajan, who had been sent by Patel to act as Diwan of the Maharaja during the final days before Kashmir's accession. Mahajan was highly critical of Nehru's commitment and his Kashmir policy in general.

Sorry, post 203 got posted here by mistake.

Dost-mitter,

Please don't forget to send me the source of Nehru's speech.

Thanks.