Arundhati ‘Pakistani’ and ‘Patriotic’ Right-wingers

#201 dost_mittar

Nehru's saying this or that would not override the LEGAL document HIS OWN government signed, in ANY INTERNATIONAL court of law. For all these years, Pakistan has been prostituting itself to America and China to use America and China's power in the UN, to force India to make all kinds of agreements AFTER the ORIGINAL document has been signed. America has always been unscrupulous in it's foreign policy - which was guided by Kissinger's "RealPolitik" (be realistic, not idealistic) theory. Back then, India needed external help much more than she does now. And India will have a veto in the UN soon. This Kashmir "problem" will be history. What will remain would be for someone like Modi to take back PoK which is legally part of India.

In any case, I'll be waiting for that link from you first.

hamidm:

Bhrava, thanks for the invitation but we'll take a pass for now. But if you guys decide to revert to the faith of your grandpas or those of the sons of the soil, Baba Nanak or Ahmad Mirza, give us a call.

#201 dost_mittar

[That commitment was made by Jawahar Lal Nehru at the time of signing the instrument of accession [sorry, I did not read what you posted but I have read the instrument before] but I was not referring to this instrument. He made this pledge to the people of Kashmir in Srinagar. ]

What the politician Jawahar Lal Nehru idiot may or may not have said to the "people of Kashmir" DOES NOT OVERRIDE the LEGAL document signed by ALL PARTIES CONCERNED at that time. Also, could you send me a link to the source of what that idiot Nehru said? I would appreciate it.

ajeya:

That commitment was made by Jawahar Lal Nehru at the time of signing the instrument of accession [sorry, I did not read what you posted but I have read the instrument before] but I was not referring to this instrument. He made this pledge to the people of Kashmir in Srinagar.

#197 dost-mitter

dost-mitter,

I will address ALL the points you made. But we will tackle them ONE at a time, to avoid confusion. (Islamists thrive on confusion - you'll find that they avoid bullet-pointed arguments like the plague).

#197 dost-mitter

dost-mitter,

The one thing I like about you is that although you have converted to islam, you are still willing to argue on point - probably old habits die hard. Although I have also noticed that if at the end you cannot defend a point any more, you too, like islamists, quietly disappear, instead of publicly conceding the point.

In any case...let's take these points ONE at a time....

[- Your leader made a commitment to the people of Kashmir (besides to the UN) that the accession to India was tentative and subject to reaffirmation by them;]

To begin with, WHO made this commitment? And when? (and if they actually did, we can talk about that later)

Here is the complete text of the Instrument of Accession:

from http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/documents/instrument_of_accession.html

The actual photographs of the documents are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kashmir-Accession-Document-a.jpg

a nd

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Kashmir-Accession-Document-b.j pg


Instrument of Accession executed by Maharajah Hari Singh on October 26, 1947

Whereas the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an independent Dominion known as INDIA, and that the Government of India Act 1935, shall with such omissions, additions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor General may by order specify, be applicable to the Dominion of India.

And whereas the Government of India Act, 1935, as so adapted by the Governor General, provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of India by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof.

Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahinder Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu & Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbet adi Deshadhipati, Ruler of Jammu & Kashmir State, in the exercise of my Sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession and


1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the Governor General of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu & Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as "this State") such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as "the Act').

2. I hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to provisions of the Act within this State so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession.

3. I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make law for this State.

4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor General and the Ruler of this State whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this State of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the Ruler of the State, then any such agreement shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

5. The terms of this my Instrument of Accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or the Indian Independence Act, 1947, unless such amendment is accepted by me by Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.

6. Nothing in this Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorizing the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purpose of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense, or, if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief Justice of India.

7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into agreement with the Government of India under any such future constitution.

8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my Sovereignty in and over this State, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in force in this State.

9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this State and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the Ruler of the State is to be construed as including a reference to my heirs and successors.
Given under my hand this 26th day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Hari Singh

Maharajadhiraj of Jammu and Kashmir State.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------


ACCEPTANCE OF ACCESSION BY THE GOVERNOR GENERAL OF INDIA
I do hereby accept this Instrument of Accession. Dated this twenty seventh day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Mountbatten of Burma

Governor General of India.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------


SCHEDULE OF INSTRUMENT OF ACCESSION
THE MATTERS WITH RESPECT TO WHICH THE DOMINION
LEGISLATURE MAY MAKE LAWS FOR THIS STATE
A. Defence

1. The naval, military and air forces of the Dominion and any other armed forces raised or maintained by the Dominion; any armed forces, including forces raised or maintained by an acceding State, which are attached to, or operating with, any of the armed forces of the Dominion.

2. Naval, military and air force works, administration of cantonment areas.

3. Arms, fire-arms, ammunition.

4. Explosives.

B. External Affairs

1. External affairs; the implementing of treaties and agreements with other countries; extradition, including the surrender of criminals and accused persons to parts of His Majesty's Dominions outside India.

2. Admission into, and emigration and expulsion from, India, including in relation thereto the regulation of the movements in India of persons who are not British subjects domiciled in India or subjects of any acceding State; pilgrimages to places beyond India.

3. Naturalisation.

C. Communications

1. Posts and telegraphs, including telephones, wireless, broadcasting, and other like forms of communication.

2. Federal railways; the regulation of all railways other than minor railways in respect of safety, maximum and minimum rates and fares, station and services terminal charges, interchange of traffic and the responsibility of railway administrations as carriers of goods and passengers; the regulation of minor railways in respect of safety and the responsibility of the administrations of such railways as carriers of goods and passengers.

3. Maritime shipping and navigation, including shipping and navigation on tidal waters; Admiralty jurisdiction.

4. Port quarantine.

5. Major ports, that is to say, the declaration and delimitation of such ports, and the constitution and powers of Port Authorities therein.

6. Aircraft and air navigation; the provision of aerodromes; regulation and organisation of air traffic and of aerodromes.

7. Lighthouses, including lightships, beacons and other provisions for the safety of shipping and aircraft.

8. Carriage of passengers and goods by sea or by air.

9. Extension of the powers and jurisdiction of members of the police force belonging to any unit to railway area outside that unit.

D. Ancillary

1. Election to the Dominion Legislature, subject to the provisions of the Act and of any Order made thereunder.

2. Offences against laws with respect to any of the aforesaid matters.

3. Inquiries and statistics for the purposes of any of the aforesaid matters.

4. Jurisdiction and powers of all courts with respect to any of the aforesaid matters but, except with the consent of the Ruler of the acceding State, not so as to confer any jurisdiction or powers upon any courts other than courts ordinarily exercising jurisdiction in or in relation to that State.

Re: # 196 anil: "No one will disagree with what I have written above, but very few will take claim of 7% + growth seriously."

No one can convince of anything if you are determined not to be persuaded. You just have to look at the data yourself and come to your own conclusions. But you do have to take the trouble of doing the research as I have. I have pointed out to you my blog as a source which quotes a lot of data and analyses from various agencies.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya:

You have to remember the following points about Kashmir:

- Your leader made a commitment to the people of Kashmir (besides to the UN) that the accession to India was tentative and subject to reaffirmation by them;

- Your leader decided that Kashmir will remain a distinct entity with article 370;

- Your leader stopped refugees from Pakistan to settle in Kashmir and do what the Pakistanis did in their part of Kashmir, i.e., let Punjabis into their part of Kashmir;

- Your leaders have banned Indians to purchase property in Kashmir.

So, before you convince anyone else, first convince your own leaders that Kashmir is a part of India like any other part.

Re: # 192

Riaz:

I am certain you know more about a lot of things than I do. My knowledge of Pakistani economy, Pakistani society is extremely poor and mostly gathered at Chowk or gleaned though essays in the Economist.

My points were two (a) it is in the mathematics that if Pakistan doubled its economy during 1999 - 2008, in less than ten years, it has to grow at over 7% CAGR for each of those years; and (b) macro indicators meaningless if micro economy is unstable.

No one will disagree with what I have written above, but very few will take claim of 7% + growth seriously.

None of the above means that Pakistan cannot grow at 7 or even faster rate. It can, especially economies of a war ravaged or strife torn countries grow even at higher double digit clip. If these $15 billions in investments are properly utilized (discounting 10% to corruption and inefficiencies), Pakistan will grow more rapidly than India. The question is can Pakistan quickly provide stability or more regresses into chaos.

Zardari has brought a historic opportunity to the country with the support that he has lined up. With this money, an implicit guarantee comes that no one external can attack and destabilize Pakistan. No one. Only Pakistani leaders have to ensure development plans are executed and internal troubles from Pakistani Taliban are eliminated. Even, if to eliminate, Pakistan must include moderate elements from Taliban, the world would want it and support it.

To an outsider observer like me, it is also very clear that rest of the world, not just Saudi etc. want a stable and prosperous Pakistan, over unstable one. Obama admin is quite serious about this dual strategy to deal with terror and growth together, and so it rest of the world. I would include majority of India in it too, except on the issue of Pakistan's stand on Indian Kashmir. I would say this is a departure from strategy adopted in Iraq. It is historical for Pakistan. For the west, having Pakistan as the base to deal with all contingencies in that region to protect its interest is far more attractive than any Afghan policy, and the delineation of India is going to work for Pakistan too.

Re: # 192
riaz...
so, why roaming around with begging bowl?

All Riaz mian can do is speak about the Indian economy. At least there is such a thing called the Indian economy. Except for funds repatriated back to Pakistan by expatriates, money earned by selling Pakis to the west (as in the case of thousands of Pakis apprehended and flown to Guantanamo without a trial in the country) and the large doses of alms the country regularly manages to squeeze out from rich countries, is there anything else in the Paki economy worth speaking about?

Arundhati Roy is currently in Pakistan. Here's an excerpt from one of her interviews dealing with the growing RSS infiltration of the Indian establishment:

The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get influenced.

It should be recalled that Col Purohit, a serving Indian Army officer, was charged with conspiracy in the Malegaon bomb blast.

“To form this ‘Hindu rashtra [state]’, they were prepared to approach the Israeli government for support, but largely wanted to attract like-minded people into their organisation. From our investigations, we have come to learn that some of the accused had met King Gyanendra of Nepal twice to seek his help,� K P Raguvanshi, the additional director general of Maharashtra police, told a press conference in Mumbai.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 189 anil: "Riaz mian you have a lot to learn. "

I am always open to learning more. But I do know more about Pak economy than you, anil.

Pakistan's economy has grown at a CAGR of over 7% until recently, unlike the false propaganda you may have heard. I invite you to read my post at http://www.riazhaq.com/2008/07/shaukat-azizs-economic-legacy.html if you are serious about learning.

The turn-around engineered by Shaukat Aziz was applauded around the world. A 2005 Bloomberg headline, as reported by China's Peoples Daily, proclaimed as follows: "The world's second-fastest growing economy after China is no longer India. It's Pakistan."

The Wall Street Journal did a story in September 2007 on Pakistan's start-up boom that said, "Scores of new businesses once unseen in Pakistan, from fitness studios to chic coffee shops to hair-transplant centers, are springing up in the wake of a dramatic economic expansion. As a result, new wealth and unprecedented consumer choice have become part of Pakistan's volatile social mix."

Here's an excerpt from a UN Economic Survey 2008 report: "Pakistan’s economy maintained its momentum in 2007, growing by 7%, slightly more than the 6.6% for 2006. Agricultural sector growth recovered sharply, from 1.6% in 2006 to 5% in 2007, while the manufacturing sector growth continued at 8.4% in 2007, slightly more moderate than the 10% for 2006. Services grew at 8% in 2007, down from 9.6% in 2006. But exports were sluggish in 2007, with economic growth largely driven by strong domestic demand. Investment overtook consumption, helped by a surge in domestic private investment and record foreign direct investment (FDI) flows. In 2007, investment in real terms increased by over 20%."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#179 dost-mitter

And if you happen to personally know any muslim in your personal life who just cannot be "convinced" about Kashmir, and you have reached this "compromise settlement" with that person - remember that it is a compromise only between the two of you. You might have had to "compromise" on that because this other person is a muslim, and you are the one who might be the one who has to give in to that person's unreasonable demands - for whatever reason?

#179 dost_mittar

[So, Indians should let the Muslims in Kashmir join Pakistan (I am against an independent Kashmir) and learn a lesson for the future, i.e., not let illegal immigration threaten the integrity of the country in places like Assam and West Bengal.]

This is like saying, "I'll let my daughter/wife/family member get raped this once, and learn a lesson for the future".

Do you think the US public would support the Cuban-Americans in Miami-Dade county to secede from the United States (if they wanted to do so) and Join Cuba because they have now become the majority in that county?

There is no "principle" here - only in the mind of Muslims - who are communal by definition - around the world.

Riaz:

Pakistan's economy economy has to grow at 7% CAGR to have doubled its economy.

I think only believe is the case. It is good to be conservative to financial point.

I took India's CAGR for the same period at 4%.

Almost all economist will agree 4% for India is conservative, and 7% (almost double the rate of India's) for Pakistan to be overly optimistic.

Riaz mian you have a lot to learn.