Arundhati ‘Pakistani’ and ‘Patriotic’ Right-wingers

anil saheb:

I do not believe in morality as the basis of diplomacy and said so. But I was dragged kicking and screaming into that debate.

Masadi sahib:

Can you teach me the relevance of right wing / left wing nonsense in addressing problems today's societies face? Today, this is so useless, that this cut cannot be used to factorize any problem.

Otherwise, please get over your rant and delusions of grandeur. It was sad to read Yasser saying what community of your peers think.

Masadi sahib, you have not claimed to replace the prophet of God yet. You have no direct connection to your God, therefore, opinions of community of your peers should be respected and mean a lot to you.

Get over it, Masadi, before you waste away all your marbles.

Dost sahib:

It is a wastage of arguments to discuss the issue of Indian Kashmir on the basis of debris of TNT and partition. There is Kashmiri blood in Indian and Pakistani hands, there is land grab and land sale in Pakistani Kashmir and part sold to China. Both sides have used both Kashmiris as convenient pawns to secure their interests and not thing else.

It is therefore, useless to debate what is moral and who is moral and less moral. Such arguments are necessary only to perpetuate the status quo, and not solve the problem.

TNT / partition debris must be consigned to the Ganges or buried by your generation. This generation has done enough harm to the minds of grandchildren of TNT/partition generation by teaching them "K" for Kafir nonsense. No more corruption of mind. Ajeya is a product of this corruption on Indian side. There is a need on Indian side which has zero tolerance any corruptions in the future. What happens in Pakistan, will be determined by many factors over which even Pakistanis have no control. From the get go, they had been very opportunistic with Kashmiri issue, and have harmed themselves. Otherwise, who would have a state policy to have a civilian guerilla movement created by its own government. Only fools will not realize that this can blow back onto them, as it is now.

There is no point blaming America or India for ambition to have strategic depth in Afghanistan and strategic heights in Kashmir.

This presupposed that only army on donkeys would be facing them at the both places.

Riaz Haq had posted a link to 45 mins documentary on Kashmir. This documentary is prepared by Pervaiz Hoodbhoy. It is a very refreshing and the message is much like what I have seen saying here on Chowk. Please review it and let me know if you have any disagreements with PH. At least for me it was reassuring that there are sane voices and saner thinking in Pakistan on this issue, and these saner voices have courage to speak out.

India too, message and educational and economic benefits need to demodulated out of the current confusion. Indian Kashmiris have an opportunity in Indian Union (to which they are permanent part, as this pregnancy could not be aborted). Indian Kashmiris can achieve the respect for their religions (not just Muslim Kashmiris), can get access to larger markets for their talent, resources and produces. Rest of India needs to show that all the benefits from this union outweigh the all attempts for impossible break up.

The time for TNT/partition is long over. Only thing achieved in current status quo, is more miseries to them. Rest of the world is marching on, India too is limping on. The micro indicators tell a very different story of Pakistan, than Pakistan want to accept or acknowledge. There capable people are busy creating and fighting wrong wars, and in fudging up the macro indicators to fool themselves into believing that Pakistan is genuinely growing and is better off than its neighbors.

This is my view.

In #84 I misread a post and so referred to the quotes coming from "the right wing lunatic Majumdar (with apologies)." However those words were penned by the right wing bigoted moron bjkumar...

Please note the correction and my apologies to The right wing lunatic (with apologies) Majumdar.

TNITC masadi

#231 dost-mitter

dost-mitter,

The vast majority of people believe what they feel comfortable believing. Long-held beliefs are like an old pair of shoes - familiar, comfortable, and fits exactly with existing world-views. It is only the very few who have the self-respect to not want to believe in what is not true. The best scientists are like that. If you can logically prove it to them, they would be happy to be proved wrong. Because truth is important above all.

So I understand why it was so hard for me to get you to finally SAY it - that you feel that IT IS NOT MORAL of India to hold on to Kashmir. And I understand why it makes you so uncomfortable, and why you want no further discussion on the subject. I do understand.

You are, of course, completely wrong. Here's why:

1) One has to ask the question : Did Nehru have to say what he said, and when he said it, in order to get the Maharaja to sign on the dotted line? The answer is a resounding NO. When Pakistanis attacked Kashmir illegally, and started looting and killing, the Maharaja called the Indian government in a panic, and hastily signed the Instrument of Accession. So Nehru had to deceive NO ONE to get Kashmir to join India.

2) So then there is the next question: How about the Indian prime minister's promise to the people? If Lalu Prasad Yadav promises to Bihari muslims that the best state jobs will be reserved for them regardless of merit, and then doesn't deliver on his promise, does that mean that Bihari muslims now have a right to the best state jobs? Because Lalu "promised" them? So the state now "owes" them the jobs? NO. If a politician makes a promise, go catch the politician. The people of the state owe you NOTHING.

3) Now let's go farther. Let's ASSUME FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE (FOR ARGUMENT'S SAKE ONLY) that the Indian State OWES the Kashmiri people the plebiscite that Nehru "promised". Well, that right has been nulled and voided by the following incidents:
a) Pakistan illegally attacking Kashmir, in contravention of the treaty they signed, AND THEN KEEPING THE STOLEN GOODS.
b) Pakistanis murdering, looting and pillaging in Kashmir,
c) Their acts have completely changed the atmosphere in the state from what existed back then.
d) Their acts have totally changed the demographics of the state from how it existed then. 400,000 Pandits have been forced to leave their own homeland by Tahmed and Hamidm's friends because of terrorism, threats and intimidation.

and so on...

4) Let's go EVEN FARTHER. Let's suppose that the plebiscite "promise" has not been compromised by 3) above. Well, as I have said many times before, if in the plebiscite, the majority religious community imposes its will on the minority community along religious lines, then such a plebiscite should be deemed undemocratic (read the American constitution and what it says about the tyranny of the majority). Period.

Therefore MORALLY AND LEGALLY, India has EVERY RIGHT to have Jammu and Kashmir as part of herself.

I will understand if you do not want to answer. Because you have an "image" to uphold on Chowk (rolling eye icon here), and cannot afford to admit the truth. Or maybe you cannot afford to admit the truth in your personal life. I don't know.

In any case - there it is. Read it. Digest it. See if you can refute it. I don't think you would be able to.

The truth is more important than anything else. Satyam Shivam Sundaram.

And by the way, it is curious that you feel like a Buddhist when you are contemplative. Hindu philosophy does not require any contemplation - eh? : )

Dear ajeya:

I really, really, hate this kind of debate. I have made my viewpoint and you have yours and it is an open forum for all to see. After a point, we start repeating ourselves and it gets very, very, very boring.

Okay, this is where I stand:

- India's stand is not moral (and that is irrelevant). We should not make pledges we cannot keep. I have a strong feeling that Nehru knew that he could not win a referendum in Kashmir but made a pledge nevertheless because he was too concerned about his international image. In fact, there was quite a discussion in the cabinet (don't ask me for the source, I don't keep them on my fingertips) about whether to use referendum or plebiscite ..lawyers were consulted and the latter term was used because it was felt that it was a weaker term and could be obfuscated.

And while it is true that Pakistan did not remove all the forces that it was required under the UN resolution, it is also true that during 1950s, the UN sent several envoys to create the required conditions for the plebiscite and they were all frustrated by the lack of cooperation, mainly by the Indians. They made their frustrations with Indians well-known - again feel free to accept or reject what I say but don't ask me to provide proofs, I have neither the time nor the resources to dig out their statements. Gosh I can't even remember their names, though Gunnar Jarring is one that comes to mind).

- India's stand on Kashmir was quite opposite to that in Junagarh, which was more or less a mirror image of Kashmir, namely a Hindu majority and a Muslim Nawab who wanted to join Pakistan. By the same token, Pakistan too was hypocritical in claiming both Junagarh and Kashmir.

However, my support for India getting rid of Kashmir is not based on any morality whatsoever; it is just that I think that Kashmir is a pain in the Indian a*s, and given the pusillanimity of the Indian leadership and the lack of consensus among Indian politicians about removing Article 370, will continue to be so. I think that India will be a stronger country, politically, militarily and morally if it lets go of Kashmir than otherwise.

This is definitely my LAST post on this topic. I am not interesting in either winning any debating points or exercises in logic. And yes, even without waiting for your answer, I would say that you win. So, be happy!

#227 dost_mittar

Ask yourself - why are you uncomfortable answering this question? Let us say for argument's sake that this question is irrelevant to what will actually happen.

But what is the harm in answering it? Just as a logical exercise?

#227 dost_mittar

[Why should I discuss something that I think is irrelevant? ]


Because you have been justifying the muslims' rights to taking Kashmir with them to Pakistan all along as what "should" happen. And suddenly you don't want to discuss whether they have a right to do it or not?

For example:

Justification on why it should happen:

"- Your leader made a commitment to the people of Kashmir (besides to the UN) that the accession to India was tentative and subject to reaffirmation by them;"

Mentioning that Muslims HAVE A RIGHT to separate:

"Where did I say that kashmiri muslims do not have a right to separate..."

Mentionaing that Indians SHOULD let go of Kashmir:

"So, Indians should let the Muslims in Kashmir join Pakistan (I am against an independent Kashmir)..."

And one thing that is obvious to any onlooker should be, WHY, after all these posts, you suddenly feel too tired to type a yes or a no. Whether India has a moral and legal right might suddenly seem to be irrelevant in your eyes, BUT THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT AN INVALID QUESTION. So I see no reason for you to try and avoid answering it.

#226 majumdar

[I am inclined to agree with DM sahib. India's legal and moral rights are irrelevant.]

If there's one thing I respect, it is loyalty, and it is touching to see you rush in to rescue a fellow liberal.

See, the problem with me is, I won't be persuaded to budge from the actual point being discussed. The point being discussed was whether India has a legal and moral right over Kashmir. NOT WHETHER THE LEGAL AND MORAL RIGHT IS RELEVANT TO HOW THIS "PROBLEM" WILL ACTUALLY BE RESOLVED ON THE GROUND.

The point is very clear. Except for those who don't want to admit that they have been wrong for many years on Chowk.



I have litTle respect for intellectual dishonesty.

ajeya:

Why should I discuss something that I think is irrelevant?

Ajeya babu,

I am inclined to agree with DM sahib. India's legal and moral rights are irrelevant. India won Kashmir because India had a bigger bamboo than the Pakis had (although an honourable mention also has to be made of the contribution that the nuns of St Joseph's Baramulla made) and will retain Kashmir as long as India has a bigger bamboo than Pak and has the inclination to wield it.

As Milosevic has found out.

Milosevic is a citizen of Serbia which is hardly a world power. Tomorrow if Jiang was to sluaghetr the entire Tibetan or Uighur population or Putin slaughter Chechen wholesale, you can bet your last dollar that no International Court wud ever touch them

Regards

#224 dost_mittar

[If I give a yes or no answer, will it end this interminable discussion? I am obviously getting tired and quite willing for you to claim victory. ]

It is pretty annoying when people just won't budge from the point being discussed, isn't it?. And I won't. So yes, I need a yes or no.

It's interesting how discussions seem interminable when one is backed into a logical corner that one cannot escape from.

A yes or no please.

ajeya:

If I give a yes or no answer, will it end this interminable discussion? I am obviously getting tired and quite willing for you to claim victory.

#222 dost_mittar

[I never said anything about morality. International issues are decided on the basis of realpolitik, not morality. ]

I disagree with you on that. It is a combination of everything. Realpolitik is cynical, and can backfire. And there are many people with morals who influence the political process as well. And there is International Law and due process. As Milosevic has found out.

However, we are deviating from the topic. I am not asking you how it will ultimately be decided. I am asking you whether you agree with me that India has BOTH moral AND legal rights on Kashmir.

A direct yes or no will be appreciated.

ajeya:

I never said anything about morality. International issues are decided on the basis of realpolitik, not morality.

#219 Pew_Research

[Re: # 218 Riaz

"...The resolution called for withdrawal of ALL troops..."

NO,SIR! Check the following UN resolution:]

Don't hold your breath on Riaz responding to that one. He'll probably do a Tahmed on you.

#215 dost_mittar

[My point is that India does not have a long-term policy to resolve the Kashmir problem. To me, in the long term, India either has to do in Kashmir what China is doing in Tibet or let its Muslim majority decide its future; the policy of buying Muslim Kashmiri's affections has failed miserably and there is no chance of its succeeding in the future also. ]

Dost-Mitter,

On the point we were discussing, then, I am assuming that you agree with me that India has both a legal and a moral right to have Kashmir as part of India.

I agree with you that India does not have a long-term policy. I don't blame India's politicians, though. Their hands are tied. India had a lot of developmental needs, including access to oil. The NATO countries had their geo-strategic needs - mainly oil - too. They still do. This is why they have supported Pakistan for all these years. But all that is changing. Hopefully in the next couple of decades, oil will cease to be a big factor in geo-strategic decisions. This would have far-reaching consequences. Firstly - the end of Islam as we know it. The critics of Islam - and there are many - in the west and all over the world, cannot be silenced any more. Islam will be treated as just another religion - to be dissected and criticized at will. The traditional thuggish approach to silencing critics with murder and intimidation will not work outside Islam-dominated areas. There will be a mass exodus out of this "religion" which will hopefully prompt changes - maybe a more benign form of this "religion" will take shape. As far as Kashmir is concerned - consider this - 1) in a couple of decades, India will be one of the most technologically advanced countries, 2) with the third largest GDP, 3) a veto in the security council, and 4) rapidly leaving the "developing country" status behind. Because of the decreased dependence on foreign oil, Indian politicians can assert their independence in world affairs, and hopefully we will remove Kashmir's special status. This will allow migration into the state from outside, and over time, this alone will take care of things. Oh, and next time there is a major provocation from the wrong side of the LoC, we can take over PoK as well - THIS TIME AROUND, there wouldn't be goras or the Chinese to save their behinds - China and the US would have much more vested interests with India to bother about a much smaller and insignificant country that has nothing to offer - because it's friendship with oil-rich Saudi Arabia would stop paying any more dividends.

Re: # 218 Riaz

"...The resolution called for withdrawal of ALL troops..."

NO,SIR! Check the following UN resolution:

(l) As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

(2) The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavor to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistan nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

source: http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc13aug48.htm

Note the complete silence/requirement on Indian forces! Also note, that this has not happened to date

Since you still persist in stating, 'India acted immorally and illegally in Kashmir', you simply feed the hardliners who are well aware of the language in the above resolution -- 'illegal/moral' behavior arguments do not wash.

In addition, while India has not suffered a 2nd partition since 1947, Pakistan has paid a heavy price for its Kashmir yearnings. If anything, hardliners in Pakistan are getting strengthened with catastrophic consequences for itself. Many in India feel that Kashmir is harming Pakistan more than it is harming India, and are therefore reluctant to concede anything as long as Pakistan persists in its militaristic approach.

I think that if Pakistan had a stable, development-focused government, Kashmir may well be addressed as numerous European disputes have been settled.

Re: # 217 Pew: ".. initial withdrawal from J&K by Pakistani forces. That has not happened - so Pakistan's occupation is illegal! Indeed unless this happens, the UN resolution says, a plebiscite cannot happen."

The resolution called for withdrawal of ALL troops, Indian and Pakistani, as part of plans for a plebiscite in Kashmir. Instead of working out the details of implementation, it's clear that India acted in bad faith and soon started talking about Kashmir being an "integral part of India".

So India acted immorally and illegally in Kashmir.

That said, I agree that there is still a need to get a resolution acceptable to all parties...Kashmiri leadership, Indian govt and Pakistani government.

Failure to get Kashmir resolved will continue to strengthen radicals on both sides of the divide.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 216 Riaz

Was the original Pathan invasion of J&K under Jinnah's eyes 'legal and moral'?

Well, you know the answer.

Regards, J&K and the UN Resolutions, you probably know that the resolutions ask for initial withdrawal from J&K by Pakistani forces. That has not happened - so Pakistan's occupation is illegal! Indeed unless this happens, the UN resolution says, a plebiscite cannot happen.

The larger point is not one of legality or morality, but what can be practically done. This issue has been debated to death by India and Pakistan and by Chowkies. There is not much life left in the issue. The question is what should be done? I think that Musharraf-Manmohan plan was a good starting point. Making accusations actually invite rebuttals and reduce the issue to one of posturing in which no solution will emerge.

The Indian occupation Kashmir is neither legal nor moral. It's illegal because it violates security council resolutions that binding on all UN member nations. It's immoral because it breaks repeated pledges to the people of Kashmir in late 40s and early 50s by Indian prime minister and various Indian officials. Read here for more details:

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/kashmir-in-context.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya:

My point is that India does not have a long-term policy to resolve the Kashmir problem. To me, in the long term, India either has to do in Kashmir what China is doing in Tibet or let its Muslim majority decide its future; the policy of buying Muslim Kashmiri's affections has failed miserably and there is no chance of its succeeding in the future also.

#209 dost_mittar

[I never said that that India does not have a legal right to Kashmir. ]

So then are you saying that India does not have a MORAL right on Kashmir?

(I sure wish you would make your point directly, not by omission.)

Re: # 207: DM "My chances of finding Nehru's speech are as good as yours;.."

I have posted a video with Nehru's speech pledging plebiscite in Kashmir on ilog titled "Kashmir in Context".

http://chowk.com/ilogs/71912/48173

The Nehru speech is about 23 min into the 46 min video.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's a link to video by Pervez Hoodbhoy on Kashmir:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5799288985759968523&hl=e n
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya:

I never said that that India does not have a legal right to Kashmir.

#207 dost_mittar

Even assuming that he made that speech, as I mentioned, that is not a fact that will stand in ANY international court of law, because IT WAS HIS OWN GOVERNMENT that signed the treaty WITHOUT ANY SUCH CONDITIONS ATTACHED TO IT.

So, based on that, are you willing to concede that you were wrong on your point no. 1, so we can proceed to the next point?

ajeya:

My chances of finding Nehru's speech are as good as yours; I have seen it referred to in many places, including, a book by Justice Mehar Chand Mahajan, who had been sent by Patel to act as Diwan of the Maharaja during the final days before Kashmir's accession. Mahajan was highly critical of Nehru's commitment and his Kashmir policy in general.

Sorry, post 203 got posted here by mistake.

Dost-mitter,

Please don't forget to send me the source of Nehru's speech.

Thanks.

#201 dost_mittar

Nehru's saying this or that would not override the LEGAL document HIS OWN government signed, in ANY INTERNATIONAL court of law. For all these years, Pakistan has been prostituting itself to America and China to use America and China's power in the UN, to force India to make all kinds of agreements AFTER the ORIGINAL document has been signed. America has always been unscrupulous in it's foreign policy - which was guided by Kissinger's "RealPolitik" (be realistic, not idealistic) theory. Back then, India needed external help much more than she does now. And India will have a veto in the UN soon. This Kashmir "problem" will be history. What will remain would be for someone like Modi to take back PoK which is legally part of India.

In any case, I'll be waiting for that link from you first.

hamidm:

Bhrava, thanks for the invitation but we'll take a pass for now. But if you guys decide to revert to the faith of your grandpas or those of the sons of the soil, Baba Nanak or Ahmad Mirza, give us a call.

#201 dost_mittar

[That commitment was made by Jawahar Lal Nehru at the time of signing the instrument of accession [sorry, I did not read what you posted but I have read the instrument before] but I was not referring to this instrument. He made this pledge to the people of Kashmir in Srinagar. ]

What the politician Jawahar Lal Nehru idiot may or may not have said to the "people of Kashmir" DOES NOT OVERRIDE the LEGAL document signed by ALL PARTIES CONCERNED at that time. Also, could you send me a link to the source of what that idiot Nehru said? I would appreciate it.

ajeya:

That commitment was made by Jawahar Lal Nehru at the time of signing the instrument of accession [sorry, I did not read what you posted but I have read the instrument before] but I was not referring to this instrument. He made this pledge to the people of Kashmir in Srinagar.

#197 dost-mitter

dost-mitter,

I will address ALL the points you made. But we will tackle them ONE at a time, to avoid confusion. (Islamists thrive on confusion - you'll find that they avoid bullet-pointed arguments like the plague).

#197 dost-mitter

dost-mitter,

The one thing I like about you is that although you have converted to islam, you are still willing to argue on point - probably old habits die hard. Although I have also noticed that if at the end you cannot defend a point any more, you too, like islamists, quietly disappear, instead of publicly conceding the point.

In any case...let's take these points ONE at a time....

[- Your leader made a commitment to the people of Kashmir (besides to the UN) that the accession to India was tentative and subject to reaffirmation by them;]

To begin with, WHO made this commitment? And when? (and if they actually did, we can talk about that later)

Here is the complete text of the Instrument of Accession:

from http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/documents/instrument_of_accession.html

The actual photographs of the documents are here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kashmir-Accession-Document-a.jpg

a nd

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/74/Kashmir-Accession-Document-b.j pg


Instrument of Accession executed by Maharajah Hari Singh on October 26, 1947

Whereas the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an independent Dominion known as INDIA, and that the Government of India Act 1935, shall with such omissions, additions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor General may by order specify, be applicable to the Dominion of India.

And whereas the Government of India Act, 1935, as so adapted by the Governor General, provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of India by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof.

Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahinder Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu & Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbet adi Deshadhipati, Ruler of Jammu & Kashmir State, in the exercise of my Sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession and


1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the Governor General of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu & Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as "this State") such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as "the Act').

2. I hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to provisions of the Act within this State so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession.

3. I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make law for this State.

4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor General and the Ruler of this State whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this State of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the Ruler of the State, then any such agreement shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

5. The terms of this my Instrument of Accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or the Indian Independence Act, 1947, unless such amendment is accepted by me by Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.

6. Nothing in this Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorizing the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purpose of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense, or, if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief Justice of India.

7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into agreement with the Government of India under any such future constitution.

8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my Sovereignty in and over this State, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in force in this State.

9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this State and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the Ruler of the State is to be construed as including a reference to my heirs and successors.
Given under my hand this 26th day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Hari Singh

Maharajadhiraj of Jammu and Kashmir State.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------


ACCEPTANCE OF ACCESSION BY THE GOVERNOR GENERAL OF INDIA
I do hereby accept this Instrument of Accession. Dated this twenty seventh day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Mountbatten of Burma

Governor General of India.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------


SCHEDULE OF INSTRUMENT OF ACCESSION
THE MATTERS WITH RESPECT TO WHICH THE DOMINION
LEGISLATURE MAY MAKE LAWS FOR THIS STATE
A. Defence

1. The naval, military and air forces of the Dominion and any other armed forces raised or maintained by the Dominion; any armed forces, including forces raised or maintained by an acceding State, which are attached to, or operating with, any of the armed forces of the Dominion.

2. Naval, military and air force works, administration of cantonment areas.

3. Arms, fire-arms, ammunition.

4. Explosives.

B. External Affairs

1. External affairs; the implementing of treaties and agreements with other countries; extradition, including the surrender of criminals and accused persons to parts of His Majesty's Dominions outside India.

2. Admission into, and emigration and expulsion from, India, including in relation thereto the regulation of the movements in India of persons who are not British subjects domiciled in India or subjects of any acceding State; pilgrimages to places beyond India.

3. Naturalisation.

C. Communications

1. Posts and telegraphs, including telephones, wireless, broadcasting, and other like forms of communication.

2. Federal railways; the regulation of all railways other than minor railways in respect of safety, maximum and minimum rates and fares, station and services terminal charges, interchange of traffic and the responsibility of railway administrations as carriers of goods and passengers; the regulation of minor railways in respect of safety and the responsibility of the administrations of such railways as carriers of goods and passengers.

3. Maritime shipping and navigation, including shipping and navigation on tidal waters; Admiralty jurisdiction.

4. Port quarantine.

5. Major ports, that is to say, the declaration and delimitation of such ports, and the constitution and powers of Port Authorities therein.

6. Aircraft and air navigation; the provision of aerodromes; regulation and organisation of air traffic and of aerodromes.

7. Lighthouses, including lightships, beacons and other provisions for the safety of shipping and aircraft.

8. Carriage of passengers and goods by sea or by air.

9. Extension of the powers and jurisdiction of members of the police force belonging to any unit to railway area outside that unit.

D. Ancillary

1. Election to the Dominion Legislature, subject to the provisions of the Act and of any Order made thereunder.

2. Offences against laws with respect to any of the aforesaid matters.

3. Inquiries and statistics for the purposes of any of the aforesaid matters.

4. Jurisdiction and powers of all courts with respect to any of the aforesaid matters but, except with the consent of the Ruler of the acceding State, not so as to confer any jurisdiction or powers upon any courts other than courts ordinarily exercising jurisdiction in or in relation to that State.

Re: # 196 anil: "No one will disagree with what I have written above, but very few will take claim of 7% + growth seriously."

No one can convince of anything if you are determined not to be persuaded. You just have to look at the data yourself and come to your own conclusions. But you do have to take the trouble of doing the research as I have. I have pointed out to you my blog as a source which quotes a lot of data and analyses from various agencies.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya:

You have to remember the following points about Kashmir:

- Your leader made a commitment to the people of Kashmir (besides to the UN) that the accession to India was tentative and subject to reaffirmation by them;

- Your leader decided that Kashmir will remain a distinct entity with article 370;

- Your leader stopped refugees from Pakistan to settle in Kashmir and do what the Pakistanis did in their part of Kashmir, i.e., let Punjabis into their part of Kashmir;

- Your leaders have banned Indians to purchase property in Kashmir.

So, before you convince anyone else, first convince your own leaders that Kashmir is a part of India like any other part.

Re: # 192

Riaz:

I am certain you know more about a lot of things than I do. My knowledge of Pakistani economy, Pakistani society is extremely poor and mostly gathered at Chowk or gleaned though essays in the Economist.

My points were two (a) it is in the mathematics that if Pakistan doubled its economy during 1999 - 2008, in less than ten years, it has to grow at over 7% CAGR for each of those years; and (b) macro indicators meaningless if micro economy is unstable.

No one will disagree with what I have written above, but very few will take claim of 7% + growth seriously.

None of the above means that Pakistan cannot grow at 7 or even faster rate. It can, especially economies of a war ravaged or strife torn countries grow even at higher double digit clip. If these $15 billions in investments are properly utilized (discounting 10% to corruption and inefficiencies), Pakistan will grow more rapidly than India. The question is can Pakistan quickly provide stability or more regresses into chaos.

Zardari has brought a historic opportunity to the country with the support that he has lined up. With this money, an implicit guarantee comes that no one external can attack and destabilize Pakistan. No one. Only Pakistani leaders have to ensure development plans are executed and internal troubles from Pakistani Taliban are eliminated. Even, if to eliminate, Pakistan must include moderate elements from Taliban, the world would want it and support it.

To an outsider observer like me, it is also very clear that rest of the world, not just Saudi etc. want a stable and prosperous Pakistan, over unstable one. Obama admin is quite serious about this dual strategy to deal with terror and growth together, and so it rest of the world. I would include majority of India in it too, except on the issue of Pakistan's stand on Indian Kashmir. I would say this is a departure from strategy adopted in Iraq. It is historical for Pakistan. For the west, having Pakistan as the base to deal with all contingencies in that region to protect its interest is far more attractive than any Afghan policy, and the delineation of India is going to work for Pakistan too.

Re: # 192
riaz...
so, why roaming around with begging bowl?

All Riaz mian can do is speak about the Indian economy. At least there is such a thing called the Indian economy. Except for funds repatriated back to Pakistan by expatriates, money earned by selling Pakis to the west (as in the case of thousands of Pakis apprehended and flown to Guantanamo without a trial in the country) and the large doses of alms the country regularly manages to squeeze out from rich countries, is there anything else in the Paki economy worth speaking about?

Arundhati Roy is currently in Pakistan. Here's an excerpt from one of her interviews dealing with the growing RSS infiltration of the Indian establishment:

The RSS has infiltrated everything to a great extent. In India, we have 120-150 million Muslims and it’s considered a minority…It’s impossible to not belong to a minority of some sort in India. Caste or ethnicity or religion or whatever, in some way everyone belongs to a minority. The fights that many of us are waging against the RSS and against the BJP are to say that we live in a society which accommodates everybody. Everybody doesn’t have to love everybody, but everybody has to be accommodated. The RSS has infiltrated the (Indian) army as much as various kinds of Wahabism or other kinds of religious ideology have infiltrated the ISI or the armed forces in Pakistan. They are human beings like everyone else and they too get influenced.

It should be recalled that Col Purohit, a serving Indian Army officer, was charged with conspiracy in the Malegaon bomb blast.

“To form this ‘Hindu rashtra [state]’, they were prepared to approach the Israeli government for support, but largely wanted to attract like-minded people into their organisation. From our investigations, we have come to learn that some of the accused had met King Gyanendra of Nepal twice to seek his help,� K P Raguvanshi, the additional director general of Maharashtra police, told a press conference in Mumbai.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 189 anil: "Riaz mian you have a lot to learn. "

I am always open to learning more. But I do know more about Pak economy than you, anil.

Pakistan's economy has grown at a CAGR of over 7% until recently, unlike the false propaganda you may have heard. I invite you to read my post at http://www.riazhaq.com/2008/07/shaukat-azizs-economic-legacy.html if you are serious about learning.

The turn-around engineered by Shaukat Aziz was applauded around the world. A 2005 Bloomberg headline, as reported by China's Peoples Daily, proclaimed as follows: "The world's second-fastest growing economy after China is no longer India. It's Pakistan."

The Wall Street Journal did a story in September 2007 on Pakistan's start-up boom that said, "Scores of new businesses once unseen in Pakistan, from fitness studios to chic coffee shops to hair-transplant centers, are springing up in the wake of a dramatic economic expansion. As a result, new wealth and unprecedented consumer choice have become part of Pakistan's volatile social mix."

Here's an excerpt from a UN Economic Survey 2008 report: "Pakistan’s economy maintained its momentum in 2007, growing by 7%, slightly more than the 6.6% for 2006. Agricultural sector growth recovered sharply, from 1.6% in 2006 to 5% in 2007, while the manufacturing sector growth continued at 8.4% in 2007, slightly more moderate than the 10% for 2006. Services grew at 8% in 2007, down from 9.6% in 2006. But exports were sluggish in 2007, with economic growth largely driven by strong domestic demand. Investment overtook consumption, helped by a surge in domestic private investment and record foreign direct investment (FDI) flows. In 2007, investment in real terms increased by over 20%."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#179 dost-mitter

And if you happen to personally know any muslim in your personal life who just cannot be "convinced" about Kashmir, and you have reached this "compromise settlement" with that person - remember that it is a compromise only between the two of you. You might have had to "compromise" on that because this other person is a muslim, and you are the one who might be the one who has to give in to that person's unreasonable demands - for whatever reason?

#179 dost_mittar

[So, Indians should let the Muslims in Kashmir join Pakistan (I am against an independent Kashmir) and learn a lesson for the future, i.e., not let illegal immigration threaten the integrity of the country in places like Assam and West Bengal.]

This is like saying, "I'll let my daughter/wife/family member get raped this once, and learn a lesson for the future".

Do you think the US public would support the Cuban-Americans in Miami-Dade county to secede from the United States (if they wanted to do so) and Join Cuba because they have now become the majority in that county?

There is no "principle" here - only in the mind of Muslims - who are communal by definition - around the world.

Riaz:

Pakistan's economy economy has to grow at 7% CAGR to have doubled its economy.

I think only believe is the case. It is good to be conservative to financial point.

I took India's CAGR for the same period at 4%.

Almost all economist will agree 4% for India is conservative, and 7% (almost double the rate of India's) for Pakistan to be overly optimistic.

Riaz mian you have a lot to learn.

Riaz:

I have more accurate numbers below on India'd macro indicators.


GDP $ 500B = MSFT market value
CAGR 4%
time 10 yrs
Present GDP $ 740B

external Debt $ 185.03 1/4th of GDP
Debt Service 2%
Debt service $ 3.70B


Budget 25,000 Crores
$/R rate 50
Budget $ 5B

Debt Service 74% of Budget

Re: # 182: "In 1999 Economist had analyzed Pakistan's score card, and I recall ..."

Pakistan's economy has more than doubled since 1999.

When Shaukat Aziz took over as finance minister and later as Prime Minister, Pakistani economy was in shambles. In 1999 Pakistan’s total debt as percentage of GDP was the highest in South Asia – 99.3 percent of its GDP and 629 percent of its revenue receipts, compared to Sri Lanka (91.1% & 528.3% respectively in 1998) and India (47.2% & 384.9% respectively in 1998). Internal Debt of Pakistan in 1999 was 45.6 per cent of GDP and 289.1 per cent of its revenue receipts, as compared to Sri Lanka (45.7% & 264.8% respectively in 1998) and India (44.0% & 358.4% respectively in 1998). Read more about it here.
Most recent figures in 2007 indicate that Pakistan's total debt stands at 56% of GDP, significantly lower than the 99% of GDP in 1999. It also compares favorably with India's debt-to-GDP ratio of 59% and Sri Lanka's 85% in 2007. From being the highest debtor nation in South Asia, Pakistan has, in fact, become the lowest debtor nation in its region and achieved economic growth rate of about 7% a year during the last 6 years.

The Economist magazine in its June 12, 2008 issue commented on Pakistan's current and past Economic Performance as follows:" (The current) macroeconomic disarray will be familiar to the coalition government led by the Pakistan People's Party of Asif Zardari, and to Nawaz Sharif, whose party provides it “outside support�. Before Mr Sharif was ousted in 1999, the two parties had presided over a decade of corruption and mismanagement. But since then, as the IMF remarked in a report in January, there has been a transformation. Pakistan attracted over $5 billion in foreign direct investment in the 2006-07 fiscal year, ten times the figure of 2000-01. The government's debt fell from 68% of GDP in 2003-04 to less than 55% in 2006-07, and its foreign-exchange reserves reached $16.4 billion as recently as in October."



Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 184

anil, You are mistaken. I don not suck up to any one, it's not in my nature.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 182: anil: "Let us say debt service is about say 4% of debt per annum. This puts debt service at 1% of GDP as debt service."

India's GDP is $1.3 trillion based on official exchange rate, relevant for dollar-based foreign debt. India's total budget is $195b.

http://www.indiacgny.org/php/showPressDetails.php?linkid=113&newsi d=298

I have not seen the debt service part broken out separately. However, the total for debt service plus defense, security, admin is 63% of the Indian budget 2009.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 181

Riaz:

"...In this case I see hamidm parting the mountains to let his people walk free and then Indian military following to their Pharo-like destruction when the mountains rejoin..."

In your rush to make an imaginary point, you make Hamidm mighty to part seas / mountains. Knowing Hamidm he would not like to part his company from his scotch, for even such a Mosses like tasks. He does not cherishes to be a prophet, just a man who want to have agreat time.

Also, you are making Indian jokers (oops generals) mightier than they are.

Two absurdities do not make a right point. They make two wrong points. Ask Hamidm if you do no believe me. You may have a better chance from such sucking up with Masadi mian.

At least chose a right person to suck up, Riaz.

Riaz:

"Although in 1991"

Please read it as

"Although in 1999"

Riaz:

Make up your mind I will discuss that with you. You cannot jump from "unimaginable amount" to debt service.

India's total external debt is about 25% OF its GDP.

Let us say debt service is about say 4% of debt per annum. This puts debt service at 1% of GDP as debt service.

Now if Indian economy is $4,000 billion. The debt service will be $40 billion per year.

I am trying to find out the number on Indian government budget. I somehow recall to be about $1,000 billion. If this is true the debt service is 4% of the budget. If the budget is only $100 billion then debt service will be 40% of the budget.

For now, take a pick any where from 4% to 40% of the budget.

In 1999 Economist had analyzed Pakistan's score card, and I recall the following:

Although in 1991
Defense :35 - 45%
Curruption and wastage : 10 - 15%
Debt Service : 60%

Left for Civil spending : 100 - 35 - 10 - 60 = -5% of GDP
Left for Civil spending : 100 - 45- 15 - 60 = -20% of GDP

Pakistan has been running on a deficit of 5% to 20% of GDP as for quite a while.

Would like to discuss the above with me, or Roy's "unimaginable summs of public money".

According to me both cases you position is irresponsible, and sensational.

A word of advise please do not jump from discussing "unimaginable sums of public money" to "debt service as percentage of annual government budget.

How long do you think you can run you go on and run you home with 5% to 20% over and beyond you earn to keep up with the Jones next door?

If you do not have, cannot have or do not want to answer, I would say you have buried your head in the sand and you are shouting that "Jones next door squat of rail road tracks each morning.

BTW, America financed upping the ante with Soviets with even worse macro indicators. Like I mentioned to you, please do not go by macro indicators when micro economic indicators have been hijacked by mullahs, military and jihadists.

This is a reality Riaz. Pakistan has to work on micro economy before macro indicators will make any sense. I am certain you know that macro indicators can be manipulated. The real picture emerges out of micro economy from job creation, health education, industrial projects etc. etc.

No one can fool all of the people all of the time. I know you are hurt by Indian right wingers putting Pakistan down all the time. Your response is what motivates them even more.

Re: # 165 DM: "This expression was used by zionists to put pressure on the Soviets to let Russian jews leave Russia and go to their promised land of Israel."

The genesis of this expression goes back to the Biblical times..when Moses demanded Egypt's Pharo Ramses to let his people go. And you know what the Bible says happened?

In this case I see hamidm parting the mountains to let his people walk free and then Indian military following to their Pharo-like destruction when the mountains rejoin.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 171: anil: "Roy needs to check facts rather than play with words "unimaginable sums of public money".

You should know the facts. With budget deficit of 5% of GDP, about two-thirds of India's budget 2009-10 is allocated to debt servicing, defense and security. Sustaining deployment of a half million troops for an extended period to occupy territory is a big part of this wasteful spending, especially in country with such high levels of human deprivation in terms of food, housing, clothing, education, sanitation etc.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23474033-23850,00.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

bulleya:

Where did I say that kashmiri muslims do not have a right to separate; I just want to keep the issue clear, which is one of Muslims not wanting to live in a kafir country if they are in a majority in a viable geographic unit, whether the province is in India, Russia, Thailand, Phillipines or Balkans.

So, Indians should let the Muslims in Kashmir join Pakistan (I am against an independent Kashmir) and learn a lesson for the future, i.e., not let illegal immigration threaten the integrity of the country in places like Assam and West Bengal.

As for Punjab, the problem was one of anger at the attack on the golden temple and innocent sikhs in Delhi. Now, that anger seems to have subsided and they are ready to vote for the Congress against the Sikh party.

Bulleya #174,

"the world still has a un resolution supporting kashmiri plebescite..."

Fair enough. The resolution demands all non-Kashmiri outsiders to vacate Kashmir before any plebiscite, for the ENTIRETY of Kashmir. You first clinically de-Punjabize your part and get Aksai Chin back. We will send all the displaced Pandits and their families back to the valley to ensure integrity of the poll. Then we can have this fictional plebiscite. deal?

Till that happens, find a different non-issue.

Romair:

I think questions like "isn't the best way to avoid separatist, not to occupy them in the first place....." are somewhat theoretical. They tend to make us delve in the past, where there are no answers.

I know your of your analogy of house, I obviously disagree with it. Please do not forget Kashmir is not a Pakistani house, where in the last 60 years Pakistanis from its Punjab have settled. Therefore, your analogy even on moral ground is no longer applicable.

The best is to give clean the debris of defunct TNT out, and let tomorrow's generation of South Asia find a new paradigm to address its solutions. This has happened in Europe, but certainly not overnight. I have faith in South Asians that eventually they will come around, till then the generation in power must not hold the future hostage to the debris of TNT. Namely, religion shall never again be the basis of division, no matter how many nuclear bomb a side has and even lobs on the other side.

Let us not worry about the world being larger place, let us try to make the hearts and minds of South Asians larger places to work together. Too much hatred too much debris of TNT is still being passed down to the next generation, why not try to stop this.

If your generation on the both side can achieve it, I have faith in the citizens of South Asia that they too will find a South Asian solution. No one else will.

Re: # 167
[India needs azadi from Kashmir just as much as - if not more than - Kashmir needs azadi from India.]

And Pakistanis need freedom from the Punjabi army

-dude40000
Free Baluchistan Worldwide Alumni

This Bhikhari gene is pretty strong in Pakistanis.
Now it is down to begging for money from USA, Kashmir
from India. Shameful.

anil #: you didn't answer the simple question i asked......you always come up with strange answers, and avoid the simple questions.....so i will ask it again..

isn't the best way to avoid separatist, not to occupy them in the first place......why blame the victim......if tomorrow you occupy my house, and i try to kick you out, can you simply say, since i am a muslim, hence i have no right to my house?

...the world is a larger place than the usa or india.....the world still has a un resolution supporting kashmiri plebescite.......the world has passed more resolutions in favor of palestinian indepdence than any other issue ever (us vetoes them again and again)......the world, overwhelmingly, opposed iraqi occupation (only a majority of israelis and us supported it).......

.......let's get the simple questions answered.......to quote my favorite poet:

ik nuktae vich gal mukdi hae
phar nukta, chhor kitabaan noonh

(translation: let's not get into theoretical mumbo-jumbo and answer the simple question: is occupation allowed or not; even if muslims are being occupied).......

Re: # 170 Field Marshall Bulleya aka Romair

"....every single province in india, which had a religious minority as a provincial majority, has either separated successfully..."

Check your Ayesha Jalal and your faulty assumptions: Had the Unionist Government of undivided Punjab known that Independence would involve the Partition of Punjab, there may not have been a Pakistan at all. Ditto for undivided Bengal. Both provincial governments believed that partition would not occur.

Re: # 170

Romair;

"...what is wrong with being a muslim separatist...."

I am surprised that you will ask this question. There is so much in today's times and in today's situation in the context of geo-political situation you talk about. We can have a debate just on this line.

I am almost certain that almost hypocritical that in one case you will support, and in other case you will oppose this thesis.

This dichotomy tells me what is fundamentally wrong, that the world and the region has moved away from TNT, the sooner we clear its derbies from our minds the better we would be in our ability to find a permanent solution based on prosperity (however slow), and stability.

Re: # 167

Riaz:

"...The unimaginable sums of public money that are needed t keep the military occupation of Kashmir going..."

Roy needs to check facts rather than play with words "unimaginable sums of public money".

The economics of India-Pakistan was has been thoroughly investigated on Indian side. I am certain, so have been the case on Pakistani side. Even there the general just don't act on their testosterones. In Kargil dollar, this amount was $110 million per day of the war. Pakistan cannot sustain more than 10 day war. Thus in conventional India can give an overwhelming response as it was given in Kargil (accoring to late Pakistani general Kiyani (??) of ISI); or it can drain Pakistan out beyond ten days. The cost would be $1.1 billion (for 10 days).

This is a loose change for Indian economy and not "unimaginable sums of public money".

Ex U.S. ambassador to India, said a couple of years ago in Islamabad, India can create situation like the Reagan created with Soviets. Simply up the ante. This is enough of a deterrent for bent-on war anti-India generals of Pakistani army.

There has been news in the press, that soon Pakistan will part its inventory of purified enriched uranium. This will be transferred to the U.S. This means for such generals nuclear scenario is out of question.

Given this on Pakistani side, and economic urgency and needs of the fabric that brings diverse people together under fragile new Indian identity. I can call myself an optimist about hopes of good relationships between two neighbors. In the next 10 tens years, I think Pakistan too stands a chance to transform itself from terror camp to powerful economy. The solving problems (like Indian Kashmir, if it would still be viewed as problem by that generation Pakistanis and Indians) will lead of permanence. Pakistan's insistence for a solution right now, or nothing is very foolish to put it mildly. There are certainly many ways to skin the cat. The solution now is only one, and it has not worked to date.

dost-mittar #: "And please let's be honest and call your brothers Muslim separatists, because that's what they are, the fact that they happen to be Kashmiris is a mere coincidence; it would be the same if and when they have a majority in Assam."

....what is wrong with being a muslim separatist.....if someone occupies muslims, do they not have a right to demand their independence.....

.......every single province in india, which had a religious minority as a provincial majority, has either separated successfully, or attempting violently to separate....punjab, sind, baluchistan, nwfp, bengal all had muslim majorities and separated......east punjab had a sikh majority and attempted violently to separate......kashmir has a muslim majority and is attempting to separate......

shouldn't you be asking the following questions:......why do minorities not want to live with india......and/or why is india bent upon keeping under its occupation lands whose populations do not want to be a part of india......

isn't the best way to avoid separatist, not to occupy them in the first place......why blame the victim......if tomorrow you occupy my house, and i try to kick you out, can you simply say, since i am a muslim, hence i have no right to my house?

To All pakistanis,

Following is India's sentiment towards you guys:

THE BIRTH, SURVIVAL AND SUREST DEMISE OF PAKISTAN IS IRRELEVENT TO YOUNGER INDIAN GENERATION. PERIOD !!

YOU STAY OUT OF OUR KASHMIR AND YOU WILL NOT HEAR A DIMMY FROM US.

Hamidm2,

"please let my people go and we promise not to bother you"

Gladly. I didn't realize that the Indian govt is demanding that unwilling Kashmiris live in India. We keep the land, though.

Also, given that we are a poor country working hard to improve our economy while we hold on to a democracy, can we get a written affidavit that you will really really leave us alone? At this point, we as a nation (Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians and Marxists - except the unwilling Kashmiris) unanimously feel that you are not a threat in any real sense, but an irritating annoyance whose only objective in life is to piss on the neighbour's lawn. We'd rather not have that.

India, a country with wrenching poverty where two-thirds of the people defecate in the open , spends two-thirds of its budget on debt servicing, military, police, intelligence and security agencies. One reason for the large military budget is the continuous deployment of half million soldiers in Kashmir. Here is an excerpt from an article Roy wrote about Indian military occupation of Kashmir:

The unimaginable sums of public money that are needed t keep the military occupation of Kashmir going is money that ought by right to be spent on schools and hospitals and food for an impoverished, malnutritioned population in India. What kind of government can possibly believe that it has the right to spend it on more weapons, more concertina wire and more prisons in Kashmir?

The Indian military occupation of Kashmir makes monsters of us all. It allows Hindu chauvinists to target and victimize Muslims in India by holding them hostage to the freedom struggle being waged by Muslims in Kashmir.

India needs azadi from Kashmir just as much as - if not more than - Kashmir needs azadi from India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#161 "too sexy for my body" hamidm2

[..... my obsession with kashmir has nothing to do with hoorees - i can barely handle the one i have ....... it is a matter of principle - the kashmiris, have a right to be be free and should be reunited with their people .........]

Shouldn't you be leaving all this complicated thinking to your superiors, the whites? And devote more time in front of the mirror?

hamidm:

Let my people go

If you knew the genesis of this slogan, you wouldn't be raising it in the context of your Muslim separatists. This expression was used by zionists to put pressure on the Soviets to let Russian jews leave Russia and go to their promised land of Israel. Are you asking that India should let your Muslim brothers go to their promised land?

And please let's be honest and call your brothers Muslim separatists, because that's what they are, the fact that they happen to be Kashmiris is a mere coincidence; it would be the same if and when they have a majority in Assam.

Re: # 161

Hamidm mian

"... so once kashmir has been liberated, you will never hear from me ......... "

So what if Indians want to hear from you, then they must not give Kashmir (this does not imply that even a iota of India is for sale or let go). Therefore, India should become Hamidm tolerant. Are their anti-biotic that you can suggest?

Re: # 151
Pakistan Paaindubad

The election stats from the horse's mouth:
http://newsblaze.com/story/20090430112305kash.nb/topstory.html
And while we are on the subject, your 'concern' for election turnouts would have been more believable had you not fully endorsed Musharraf -- the world champion of winning Presidential campaigns with 99.8% margins!

Takbir

Re: # 161 hamid
[... please let my people go ...]

I thought you pakis were supposed to "ladke lenge bhinoodland"... what's up with this "please sir" business: please sir, let my people go, please sir, can I have some more kashmir...

what heck dude...

You are a martial paki who carries grudges for his father being molested by a madrassi a generation ago... well, you got to fight, you got to avenge your father's honor, go fight the bhindoos, you can't avenge honor by saying pretty please....

LOL

Re: # 149

bj mian,

..... my obsession with kashmir has nothing to do with hoorees - i can barely handle the one i have ....... it is a matter of principle - the kashmiris, have a right to be be free and should be reunited with their people .........

........ please let my people go and we promise not to bother you ..... no one from my father's or grandfather's generation ever went to any part of india even when there were no borders .... and i certainly have no desire to associate with madrasis ...... i was raised to hold all madrasis in contempt (primarily because a madrasi general ruined my father's career; so once kashmir has been liberated, you will never hear from me ......... for the record, i have been against all forms of cross border footsie including cricket and journalists having tea in delhi ............. beena is gulity of high treason and should be thrown in jail and tortured with bollywood movies, idli and sambar ......

Re: # 150

You can wait until the final results are electronically tallied and look at the turnout by constituency at the Election Commission's Website.

poor riaz, still running amok here, i guess no one could help him with his medication problems...

Interesting thing is that fellows like him think that by quoting criticism of indian state by indians, he is proving something we want to hide. On the contrary; just as critics like Chomsky, Krugman, Stiglitz, Mearshiemer, Walt etc. show strength of US culture - similarly sikand, pankaj mishra, arundhati roy, teesta seetalvad etc. demonstrate strength and pluralism of indian culture.

But this point is usually lost on people who have only experienced authoritarianism and dictatorship. They are unused to free thinking and debate and confuse it with weakness and think people will be impressed by quoting only the negative comments from the critics.

Re: # 157 ranger ko mangta 72 aadhmi. hum sab ko mangta phit auraath.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

MBa (Macaulay's Baby)

"No doubt RSS as an organization is well organized and disciplined. It should use this to eliminate caste system out. It has the ability to do so. As a first step, as its Shakha's it should start with open apology to all Dalits."

In recent visit I was surprised to see a Shakha being conducted by a so called harijan/Mahar (Kamble)on the ground floor hall of a Konkanastha Bramhin. The guy was Shakha Pramukh. Many maid servant's kids and kid's from slum area are attending Shakhas to get exercise and good Sanskars. Kangress used to have Rashtra Seva Dal but since 70s you do not see their presence in anywhere at least in Maharashtra. Kangress and other Whisky socialists care only for unearned Mewa.

MBa G, pl do not use the word Dalit. It's in circulation because of imperialist, anti-human, anti-culture, anti-environment Abrahamic gandus which includes totalitarian later day Abrahamic gandus (Marxist).

A day is not far when Shakhas will be conducted in the court yard of a masjid before attending evening Namaz conducted in Shuddha Marathi.

Re: # 151

The remaining kashmiris are perhaps too chicken to vote. Perhaps they need to move to Pakistan where they won't have to put up with such trivialities!

And Pak Whatever Whatever sahib, frankly, we dont care how many people voted in Kashmir. So they dont like India too much. Bloody muslims.Expectedly so. So what ?

Dont waste your no doubt precious breath on it.

Pakistan Whatever Whatever Riaz Haq saheb says :

"Yes, minorities do count, in so far as respecting their basic rights. But not in determining the future of Kashmir. That right belongs to the majority of the people of the state."

Mian Pakistan Whatever Whatever Saheb, it is the people of India who decide Kashmir's fate, and that includes the people of Kashmir. And people of India decided long time back that Kashmir stays with India.

If anybody in Kashmir has a problem with that, they were welcome to turn to the west and keep marching and marching...till they reach a happy place. They land stays with India.

And if you, revered Pak Whatever Whatever saheb, are unhappy with that ? What are you gonna do ? My suggestion is, pick up a gun, jump over the fence at the LOC and fight the Indian Army like many of your fellow Pakis..what do you say ?

Think about it.

Here's one more report of low voter turnout in Kashmir by an "anti-Indian French source" called Radio France with an ax to grind:

As few as 15 per cent are reported to have voted in Kashmir, says correspondent Vickram Roy, with voting following the national trend of 50-55 per cent in Punjab and Haryana.

http://www.rfi.fr/actuen/articles/113/article_3693.asp
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 144

Do you have another "reliable" source of your choosing that contradicts this?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

MiaN hamidm2 is entitled to his dreams of the Kashmiri hooree coming and bringing joy and happiness to those dreary nights!

As always, the real "hooree" -- if she shows up at all, will be less than satisfying to him -- because she would likely be of the unwashed masses variety, with facial hairs of excessive length.

Re: # 126
hamidm2...
in Kashmir, those who try to kill others are getting killed...what indian army should do with armed jihadis?
ans. send them to the arabic moon god's whore house...and that is exactly indian army is doing....

those jihadi bast*** in kashmir thought that killing pundits will make way for integration with Pakistan...but somehow these muslas don't learn from history...when the armed forces were deployed, they got what they deserved....for single bullet these jihadis offer to India, they will receive 2/3 as bonus from india...and no aid from china can sustain these jihadi forces in long run....

Re: # 145
Raiz katue...
Yeh, everything about RSS may be true...
But only Pakis are getting thrashing from US drones!!!!
Only Pakis are dumped from UK for suspected association with terrorism.....
What a unfair system!!!!

Sanatani ji:

No doubt RSS as an organization is well organized and disciplined. It should use this to eliminate caste system out. It has the ability to do so. As a first step, as its Shakha's it should start with open apology to all Dalits. This apology, if rendered by an extremist Hindu organization, at the invocations each morning for the next two only then such an evil can be eradicated.

You may like to make it a personal challenge to get it inside RSS, otherwise RSS has not moral authority to play get even game with any one.

Re: # 142
You continue to display your unabashed and unvarnished bigotry. You should be the poster child of the real face of India's "secular democracy".
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 140 Riaz ul Haq

By quoting a subjective report (without any numbers on turnout) from a govt. controlled media of that magnificent democracy in the Gulf - the UAE, you have undercut your own credibility.

Allah hu Akbar

Sanatani Pai: Lagda hai BJP will lose again. Be prepared for another five years of Pak appeasement.

Re: # 107

Riaz Haq Mistakes:

1) RSS Hindu nationalist not at all it is simply nationalist and often at the cost of Hindu lives e.g. in the events leading to the brutal massacre of erstwhile East pakis (Banglas) in general and Hindus in particular the RSS refrained from any muslai retaliation in the rest of India even when it was known that the urdus were acting as the cats paw in this (1 of the reasons why I dislike the RSS)

2) "when the typical urban middle class voter (with BJP sympathies) did not turn out to vote and Congress benefited from the rural voter turn-out" The congress won hugely in all traditional Urban centres which were BJP or their allies strongholds between Delhi Mumbai and Kolkatta the BJP tally dropped from 19 to 3 and it won 3 seat in Bengaluru (a tradtional congress vote bank). On the contrary it swept Indias poorest states Orissa with an ally, Jharkhand highest vote % it won only 1 seat as it refused an ally tieup, 10/11 in Vidarbha the poorest area of Maharshtra and swept on its own stream MP, Chattisgarh and Rajasthan.

Vaise partition took place between muslim and non-muslim areas of India. The non-muslims were cleansed from the muslim areas it would have been fair to do the same to them in India.

Sanatani

Re: # 131: anil: "The future of South Asia needs to mold based on economic and other modern principles. I envision a blueprint of a roadmap that devolves power to states in India (including Indian Kashmir). I am not certain Pakistani Punjabi (70% of the population) is ready for a similar blue print for Pakistan."

I'd go a step further and suggest Asian Union including all major Asian nations, China, Japan, India, Korea, Indonesia, Pakistan etc, along the lines of European Union. But you know what it took to create EU and how contentious it still is. There has to be a basic willingness to sit down and talk to resolve issues...something India has been unable or unwilling to do.

As Stephen Cohen recently put it: "Indians do not know whether they want to play cricket and trade with Pakistan, or whether they want to destroy it. There is still no consensus on talking with Pakistan: sometimes the government and its spokesman claim that they do not want to deal with the generals, but when the generals are out of the limelight, they complain that the civilians are too weak to conclude a deal. "

As the senior partner in India-Pak relationship in South Asia, India has failed to show any leadership even within SAARC by its own stupidity....a successful SAARC would be far more beneficial to India than others because of its natural advantage in size. But it requires more enlightened magnanimity that has been sorely lacking among Indian politicians from both major parties.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's a report on elections in Kashmir:

The fourth phase of voting in India's month-long general election is taking place, with 85 seats up for grabs in seven states across the world's most populous democracy, as well as in the capital New Delhi.

Heavy security has been deployed for polling in the Kashmir valley, the disputed northern Himalayan region claimed by both India and Pakistan.

The separatist All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference has urged a boycott of the vote in the region's summer capital of Srinagar, arguing that the polls legitimise Indian rule of the territory.

"So far, we haven't seen many voters coming out," Al Jazeera's Prerna Supri, reporting from Srinagar, said several hours after polls opened.

"Remember that a 50-hour strike called by the separatist leaders doesn't end until later this evening after polling has ended."

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/05/2009573279918 445.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 125 Riaz

"...you questions are based on dishonest intent..not to understand the issues .."

You are entitled to your opinions, but not to your facts. I have systematically pointed out the error in your facts. Your opinions are yours alone!

Pakistan Paaindubad!

Re: # 133 anil
[...Pakistanis should...hatred, anger, obsession or whatever to create unity in Pakistan to its betterment to improve economy (not stuffing chanda boxes)...]

if "unity" is achieved using hatred - how can it be used for anything other than jihad against the target of that hatred?...

Anycase - why are you ready to make indians the target for paki hatred anyway?... Why should pakis use hatred of indians to better themselves(even if that were possible), are indians some kind of sacrificial goats?...

Are you stupid?...

Re: # 125 Riaz

"No insurgents in India are comparable in terms of training and armaments to the Taliban in Pakistan".

No, indeed - Al Qaeda camps were used to routinely train Jaish-e-Mohammed and Lashkar-e-Toiba militants to infiltrate Kashmir in the pre-9/11 time frame.

"The Taliban are giving a very hard time to US/NATO in Afghanistan."

That's in large part because the US/NATO have less than 100,000 troops in an area several times larger than Kashmir - remember the criticism of Rumsfeld's Iraq occupation strategy as not having sufficient forces and the need for a subsequent 'surge'. If you want to smother an insurgency - you need troops and lots of them - more like 700,000 in an area the size of Kashmir.

"...but to push your own agenda of demonizing Muslims and Pakistanis..."

Actually, no. I sympathize with the Punjabi and Bengali Pakis who did not want partition to begin with, but had it foisted on them and now have to deal with the ginormous Taliban problem with none of the resources that British India had! (I have read my Ayesha Jalal). And, I am not afraid to call a spade a spade.

Riaz Haq asli mein sala hindu hai. woh pakistani naheen hain.

Chucha buttees sahib, dekhlo yeah hindu ka kamaal. tum sab ko ullu baneke nikla

Re: # 128

Hamidm sahib:

".. ......... i have suggested starting a war with india to keep the taliban busy with killing real infidels instead of beheading poor policemen whose only crime is that they like to shave and take a bath once in a while .......... "

Please come clean and say that you are worried because you do not want your Salwar to be ankle high, and beard touching the chest, and glorious mark on your head. It is for this selfish reason you want Taliban to be shown your eastern border.

Do you realize, if they will be busy with bigger evil and soon float in greenback that their grandfather had not seen, then they not want to spoil a great party. Atleast on Pakistan's werstern border every one would soon talk in billions of dollars, while on the eastern border it will billions of miseries.

Please let me know what anyone who has brain of more than a sheep and less than a vegetable, would decide. If you think eastern border, I would say you two more chances left to think.

Riaz,

"Yes, minorities do count, in so far as respecting their basic rights. But not in determining the future of Kashmir. That right belongs to the majority of the people of the state."

Hmm...how well does this particular argument hold up in justifying partition ? Or was majority of India screaming for partition ?

As far as I am (and I suspect many Indians are) concerned, any Shia/Sunni/Hindu/Buddhist/agnostic/atheist Kashmiri who wants to become a Pakistani is more than welcome to move there. I'm sure they'd get a warm welcome, given the overall level of altruistic concern the state of Pakistan has shown for Kashmiris. But please don't insist on carrying the land with you. When you mess with property, states get a little ticked off and do try to stop you.

Re: # 128

Hamidm sahib:

"........ i am sure that you must have noticed that all pakis agree on one thing - kashmir! ......"

I have said this many times, I would further say that one thing is India.

Pakistanis should this unity through hatred, anger, obsession or whatever to create unity in Pakistan to its betterment to improve economy (not stuffing chanda boxes), education (not K for Kafir) and so on.

Re: # 126 Hamidm ustaad

You know that there is this ancient Indic tradition of never disrespecting your guru - and having shown me the way to several generations of prosperity through the Pakistan Defence Savings bonds, you are my guru, and I dare not disrespect you.

But, I do have the peculiar habit learned from you to objectively question sources. So, when you write, 'kill hundreds of thousands of kashmiris?', I have to ask you:

a) hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris - really? Do you have a source? Last time I checked the BBC was reporting about 50,000

b) Over 20 years, that is still a smaller number than the poor Iraqis (87,000 dead in 6 years). So, is the US to blame for the 87,000 dead?

Shagird

Re: # 125

Riaz:

With all due to respect, your and Hamidm sahibs position on Kashmir is based on bankrupt TNT.

Pakistan sealed the future of Indian Kashmir several times,

1. when it attacked in 1948, and raped and pillaged Kashmiri Muslims through infiltrators. They forgot that they have to capture Srinagar.

2. when it attacked in 1965, and had to watch out for loss of Lahore.

3. when it attacked Bangladesh in 1971, and raped and pillaged Bengalis.

Palistan has no moral authority over India on these issues. I can go on more but this line of thinking is such a waste.

The future of South Asia needs to mold based on economic and other modern principles. I envision a blueprint of a roadmap that devolves power to states in India (including Indian Kashmir). I am not certain Pakistani Punjabi (70% of the population) is ready for a similar blue print for Pakistan.

Devolution of power from center to state, is happening in India, in defective Indian ways. Regional parties now come and rule the center. Not the other way around.

Pakistan can evolve its own blue print, and next generation of South Asians will have solutions for more than just Kashmir.

Pakistan is not ready for a fresh approach. It still harps on TNT, when TNT is no more.

Till then, Pakistanis can make their obsession with Indian Kaashmir as a nightmare to address every few years (last was Kargil).

Re: # 125 Riaz-ul-Haq

Allah hu Akbar!

"...But not in determining the future of Kashmir. ..."

The majority is busy voting in elections right now! Enough said.

"...As far Shia not wanting Pakistan, it is a white lie. Many Shia leaders are part of the Hurriet movement and support integration with Pak..."

Did you ever wonder why there is no separatism in Kargil? Guess what the religious affiliation of people from Kargil is? And while you are at it, do you want to guess why they were singled out for artillery bombing in '99 by your vaunted Army and the Sunni border districts were spared? You won't find the answer in the popular literature you read.

"...Pakistan's founder QA MA Jinnah was Shia..."

Allah hu Akbar

Yes indeed, and what a blunder he made - the Shias of Pakistan get shafted every Moharram! What is the body count of Shia doctors in Karachi? I am sure that Jinnah is turning in his grave trying to figure out that Liaqat Ali Khan didn't waste much time in establishing the Koran and the Sunnah as the bedrock of the Pakistani Constitution. But, let us not stop there - Zafarullah Khan (holy of holies) was an Ahmedi - those other revered minorities in Pakistan! As was that other god in the Pakistani pantheon - Abdus Salam whose wisened face stares down from every Pakistani chowk and in whose name high school students sing praises before physics labs

"Yes, minorities do count, in so far as respecting their basic rights. "!

So, now that we are assured that minority rights (did I mention the Sikhs of Orakzai who are begging to pay Jiziya to the Taliban?) are fully respected in your vaunted Pakistan, I think that you may have a point after all!

Re: # 128 haan....beech raaste mein ek aadh nun mille tau aacha hain....sab khush

Re: # 125

riaz mian,

..... i am sure that you must have noticed that all pakis agree on one thing - kashmir! ...... this is one issue that unites us all and drives the horrible hindoos crazy ....... now, if we could leverage this to overturn the hindoo's charpoy (if he has one) and dump him on the rialroad tracks ......... i have suggested starting a war with india to keep the taliban busy with killing real infidels instead of beheading poor policemen whose only crime is that they like to shave and take a bath once in a while .......... instead of wasting time and ammunition in swat and dir, i think we can achieve the same goal by taking a run at srinagar with the taliban leading the way to clear indian minefields and stop incoming small arm fire .........what do you think?

Re: # 125 Riaz sala, tu bada shyana nikala. Ekdum Pakistan ka ulta.

Tu sala hindu nikala. such such bata

Yes, minorities do count, in so far as respecting their basic rights. But not in determining the future of Kashmir. That right belongs to the majority of the people of the state.

:D :D :D abey UKP teray dimaagh mein bhoosa hain kya. Soch samjh ke baath leekh

Re: # 123

pepe l'pew,

..... so how did you kill hundreds of thousands of kashmiris? ..... did you smother them with love? ... don't tell me it was the smell of heeng laced bhaji that killed them .............

Re: # 124: "So, minorities don't count?"

Dear Pepe le'Pew,
Yes, minorities do count, in so far as respecting their basic rights. But not in determining the future of Kashmir. That right belongs to the majority of the people of the state.

As far Shia not wanting Pakistan, it is a white lie. Many Shia leaders are part of the Hurriet movement and support integration with Pak. Pak has Shia leaders in the highest places...including the prime minister's office. Pakistan's founder QA MA Jinnah was Shia. Yousaf Raza Gillani is Shia.

No insurgents in India are comparable in terms of training and armaments to the Taliban in Pakistan. Indian military is used to dealing with a much more gentle insurgents. The Taliban are giving a very hard time to US/NATO in Afghanistan. So that should tell you the nature of the enemy and the tactics required to deal with it.

Bottom line, you questions are based on dishonest intent..not to understand the issues but to push your own agenda of demonizing Muslims and Pakistanis. So I don't expect you to understand or even seriously ponder anything I tell you. So let's drop all the pretenses here and agree to disagree.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 122 Riaz-ul-Haq

"..But they are a small minority..."

So, minorities don't count? Isn't that the OPPOSITE of what you were preaching earlier that India ignores its Muslim minority? AND it is not just a BJP issue, right?

Why don't you make up your mind?

BTW, the 'minorities' in J&K number over 30% or 40%. Of the Muslim 'majority', the Shia don't want anything to do with Pakistan.

Allah Hafiz

Re: # 120 Riaz

".... Pakistanis have been far more restrained and slow to respond against much more violent and very well-armed insurgents..."

Allah hu Akbar - tauba! tauba!

Oh my gosh! Wonder what the Bangladeshis (millions dead) have to say about this? Or the Baluchis! or the Taliban now!

I think that the use of helicopter gunships, artillery, jets pounding villages, is unique to Pakistan (compared to India)! That honor is yours alone!

Allah hafiz

Re: # 119: "BTW, did you know that there are Hindus, Buddhists in J&K as well? So, shouldn't the matter be 'anti-xyz', too?"

Yes, I do know that, and J&K Hindus, mostly in Jammu, want full integration with India as does BJP. So they are aligned. But they are a small minority.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 117 Riaz-ul-Haq

I noticed that you put quotes around the word 'secular' India? Do you find India to be not secular enough, or do you believe that striving to be secular is not a worthy objective?

You don't seem to have much of a problem with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan!

Allah hafiz

Re: # 118

India has an ugly, bloody history of dealing with relatively low level insurgencies. Pakistanis have been far more restrained and slow to respond against much more violent and very well-armed insurgents.

Kashmiris never mounted the kind of insurgency that the Taliban are engaged in in Pakistan right now. Yet, India has maintained nearly 500,000 troops there and committed widespread murder, torture, rape and other atrocities well documented by human rights orgs and described by Prof Stanley Wolpert. Just a few years ago, there was a whole issue of National Geographic that graphically displayed Muslim cemeteries full of graves marked with names of very young men and boys who fell victim. Prior to that India executed brutal campaigns of custodial murder and mayhem in West Bengal and Punjab, including an attack on the Golden Temple....even though Sikhs did nothing comparable to what the Taliban are doing in Pakistan.

Even in the absence of any insurgencies, Indian officials (Modi and Co) have also sponsored pogroms of their own Muslim citizens in Gujarat, and gotten away with it.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 117 Riaz-ul-Haq

"...it doesn't take a genius to see who it is directed against and what vote bank it appeals to..."

You are completely discounting these issues on their merit. AND, BJP is not alone on Article 370 (which you didn't know is also of a temporary nature, surprise! surprise!).

BTW, did you know that there are Hindus, Buddhists in J&K as well? So, shouldn't the matter be 'anti-xyz', too?

But, why worry about such trivial matters, when Pakistan's record in AJK is so stellar?

And, your last post is quite a climbdown from, "...This is a continuation of Modi politics of division and hate...".

I appreciate it. Thank you.

Allah hafiz

Oye, Riaz a question to you, Forget BJP etc - they can do didly quat to you, worry about yourself and forget this little contest!

on Up the following was put up - and I am interested in hearing from you:
What would people like you do if India used the same tactics - that the Pak Army is using for the last few days? Say in Kashmir, or Hyderabad, or Lucknow, or Bhopal, Beneras, or Rajasthan, or Gujarat?.

When BJP combines building Ram temple with overriding of Muslim personal law and cancellation of special status for Kashmir as "core issues" on its national agenda, it doesn't take a genius to see who it is directed against and what vote bank it appeals to. Anyone who can not see it is either in denial or deliberately supporting the Hindutva agenda in "secular" India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 115 Dost

"...I think that most of the Directive Principles have been completely ignored by the state..."

Yes, they have been. If the BJP drops the demand for the Uniform Civil Code, then the neglect will be complete.

"Every 10 years, the Parliament decides if the personal laws should be retained or eliminated."

I do not recall the Parliament ever discussing this issue; I think that most of the Directive Principles have been completely ignored by the state.

Riaz,

About personal laws/status of Kashmir being a "pet issue of the BJP" - this somehow means that these issues shouldn't be a part of the Indian political discourse? It takes a special kind of chutzpah to suggest to a billion people what they should or shouldn't discuss in their federal election.

Even for people mortally opposed to the BJP, including people who've forgotten more about socialism than Ms. Roy ever knew, these are wedge issues that need to be resolved. And as far as wedge issues go, these are orders of magnitude less relevant than the "gays/guns/God" platform in the US, for instance.

Pepe le Pew, bolo kiya terray govmint aisaa kaam karela kabhi bhi...

pew_research...dekho padh sakte ho to padhlo...aur socho aur kitna chillar aur bewakoof bante yeah rulers riaz miah jaisa aadmi

paisa wassool, aur taliban khatma - aur kitna chilladh banega yeah rulers sala itna chillardh log...aaapne jaath bhaiyon ko qatl karye ek-aadh dollar aapne bank account mein daalte.

Sala, paisa liya aur kuch talibanoon ko mara. Khalaas.

dekho, yeah har saal ayega congress ke saamne. Everyyear paki elite khatma karne ka do-teen hazaar junta ko.

kya chilladh addmi hain yeah sab

Re: # 109 Pew_research, sala pew take man.

Father, son and holy ghost! Amen.

sala, constotution talk with pakistanis is not pointless, but useful. Constitutional politics in pakistan is Muahmmed's laws. have you read Goran. han, padha ki naiye? naiye tau phir khaali-phukat kyon chik-chik karta, Hajji maulana haq ke saath.

Re: # 107 Riaz ul Haq

"...This is a continuation of Modi politics of division and hate..."

Wondered who perfected it to a fine art in India? You know, who first said, 'We are a separate nation..our heroes are their villains, (and vice versa)..."

Allah hu Akbar

Re: # 108 Riaz

Addendum

Since you are so patently ignorant of India's Constitution, your blase remarks are understandable and reflect how little you know and how unsophisticated you are. That also explains how ignorant you were when Dost Mittar literally replaced word for word between what Geelani and Advani said.

Allah hafiz

Re: # 107 Riaz

'".....what drives it is not merits of the issue but the politics of it..."

Are you really sure about it? or just guessing? Just guessing is my conclusion"

You do not know this, but when the Constitution of India was framed in 1950, the issue of personal laws was included as a temporary measure for only 10 years, and to come up for consideration periodically thereafter (which it does every election time). Every 10 years, the Parliament decides if the personal laws should be retained or eliminated. Bet you didn't know that! Indeed, the Constitution of India requires (through the Directive Principles of State Policy - check out India's Constitution on the Web) that 'the State shall endeavour to secure a uniform civil code for all citizens.'

So, why be surprised that it comes up from time to time during elections. But, through your foggy glasses you see a matter of public debate in India as 'hate politics'.

Riaz, your family left India in favor of Shariat, so it comes as no surprise that it you support continuation of personal laws (regardless of what it implies for women or your distant cousin sisters).

The day is not too far off when aspects of these personal laws are found to be in violation of fundamental human rights (it already was once - check out the 'Shah Bano Case'), and it will happen again. The Supreme Court has already begun to limit some of their most idiotic aspects (especially in the case of divorce).

Ciao.

Re: # 106

The rise of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), a right wing conglomerate that had allies in the Hindu Nationalist RSS and Shiv Sena organizations, has had a major impact on the question of a Uniform Civil Code to replace the Personal Law which is preferred by Muslims. It's a pet issue for the Hindutva groups.

Note the emphasis in bold....what drives it is not merits of the issue but the politics of it.

The Kashmir special status issue is driven by the same politics of hate.

This is a continuation of Modi politics of division and hate in Gujarat. I hope the Indians reject it again nationally, as they did in 2004....when the typical urban middle class voter (with BJP sympathies) did not turn out to vote and Congress benefited from the rural voter turn-out.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 103

SPY Ram does not need a mandir!

What is more important is the equality of all citizens of India? Uniform Civil Code is extremely important - it would provide for a more uniform platform for all citizens to measure themselves from - men, women, hindus, muslims, etc. No one will then feel "left out" - and there will be equitability in law.

Article 370. That is an interesting point. This has made the kashmiris the richest in the country, and their politicians the richest (this includes the people from the APHC).

Re: # 103 SPY

"...SOme of its loophoes are misused by the Indian muslim men against Indian muslim women, which needs to be opposed...."

You didn't have to say that! For folks like Riaz, who like to wear religion on their sleeves, the Muslim Personal Laws are fine (the women be damned, though!)

''Terror czar Sufi Mohammad’s son Kifyatullah has been killed in shelling''
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/p akistan/13+sufi+mohammads+son+killed+in+shelling--za-09

I HOPE NOW HE REALIZES HOW IT IS WHEN HE KILLS INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Re: # 92 Riaz: BJP agenda has three core issues - construction of a grand Ram temple in Ayodhya (and it's clear as daylight that BJP supporters destroyed Babri Mosque), implementation of the uniform civil Code and abolition of the constitution's Article 370 granting special status to Jammu and Kashmir. This would help the BJP retain its committed voters who support it for pursuing a 'hardline Hindutva' agenda.

Not entirely true. I am very much opposed to the BJP (and in fact cast my election vote in opposition to BJP today) but still want the three core issues to be settled rightly and as per the law.

There is enough technology / expertise available to find out if a Ram temple existed on the same site prior to the Babri mosque. If yes than the temple should be created otherwise the mosque should be created. Simple. I believe the government / courts are not taking this route as it is a sensitive issue, but ultimately a few decades later it will get settled legally when the tempers cool down.

The uniform civil code implementation and article 370 removal, are to give equal treatment to all the Indian citizens irrespective of the religion and place. Mind it when the muslims have a separate civil code, do not presume that the rest of the Indian society is benefitting or loosing because of it. SOme of its loophoes are misused by the Indian muslim men against Indian muslim women, which needs to be opposed.
Similarly the article 370 has provided a special status to the Kashmiris which is constantly reminds them of being different and keeps them alienated from the rest of the Indians. It was no different for the umpteen kings / provinces that merged with India when the Brits left, but for that article.

bomb blasts in india arranged by CIA or Israeli Mossad!

(alleged quote from Y. Sikand)

- sorry to read such rubbish. I must say it lowers my opinion of Mr. Sikand, he often has calm commonsensical suggestions based on good research. But with this unsubstantiated quote, illustrating a common problem with the indian left, he joins the loony brigade with their obsession about CIA/Mossad.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Comparing Arundhati Roy with Hoodbhoy is not accurate. They come from a different background and follow different schools of thoughts. Hoodbhoy is mainly concerned with the nuke proliferation and in Pakistan’s case, the emergence of fundamentalism and does not support any discernible change in the system. Ms. Roy believes and propagates fundamental changes in the system and her concerns are not limited to the elitist issues. Her emphasis is on structural changes rather than the cosmetic changes in the system that Hoodbhoy espouses.

A better comparison would be with Faiz Ahmed Faiz of the 50s. Faiz was a young anti-establishment who believed in fundamental changes in the society and political discourse in Pakistan. However, Faiz was not as out spoken as Ms. Roy is. Faiz faced similar criticism from the rightwing and the religious fundamentalists’ in Pakistan that Ms. Roy is facing in India now. She can be compared in her firebrand style with Habib Jalib but Habib Jalib was not an intellectual and a leader. He was mostly a follower.

The charges by the rightwing and the religious nutcases against her in India are just plain ridiculous and that’s why she ignores them.

How meeting Hamid Gul could be a big deal? She was invited to a function in Lahore where Hamid Gul was present and I doubt that she was even aware of that. Hamid Gul is not really a household name in India and most of the Indians wouldn’t recognize him among many participants. I doubt that his pictures are splashed in Indian newspapers every day like Shahrukh Khan’s pictures are. Further, there are some mutual courtesies that have to be maintained when you are invited to a function. I doubt that she would refuse to shake hands or avoid being pictured with Modi, if she meets him in a function.

I have not read anything that suggests that she supports the Taliban. What she has mentioned, and if looked in the context of the US occupation of Afghanistan, the Taliban do represent Pakhtoon resistance to a foreign occupation. The US is an occupier in Afghanistan and it has successfully installed its proxy as the President after the attack and still maintains armies in Afghanistan and frequently bombs the afghan citizens.

The US ostensibly occupies Afghanistan because it is looking for OBL for the last 8 years. Incidentally, the US also claims that OBL is not in Afghanistan. Well, since OBL is not in Afghanistan, then what the hell US is doing in Afghanistan? Why not send the US armies to Pakistan where according to the US media, OBL is hiding? The US really should leave Afghanistan and enter Pakistan, if the sole reason of the US presence in Afghanistan is OBL.

Ms. Roy has strong ideological differences with the Taliban. She has never supported their tactics but she does not want to ignore the reality of the US occupation in Afghanistan.

In pure ideological terms, the fundamentalist and the rightwing Indians are closer and the ideological brothers of the Taliban and the Taliban ideology than Ms. Roy could ever be.

Re: # 78

Dost sahib:

I know the symmetry in arguments at two ends is remrakable. The best part of moderates is that in modern times resorting to religion has not resutled in victory, it only added more to the misrey. Everywhere, without exception. You can look at Ireland, partition, Israel-Palestine, and on to recent times on the sub-continent.

The reason I say is that it is the best part, is because otherwise what would happen is hard to imagine not only in Kashmir, Af-Pak, and at other trouble spot. These spots would not become peacefully, if their direct conneciton to God prevails.

Re: # 80

Masadi sahib:

"...Anil sahib knows how baseless his entire "4th century BC to Adam Smith to entrepreneurship of the Apple variety" is as explanatory model of the World System so he resorts to attacking all leftists ..."

In case you are still dreaming, Left Right classification died long time ago, especially after Deng Ziao Ping came to the center stage. It is now merely for the jokers to dream on.

What started with the arrival of Deng Xiao Ping, Global connectivity will rightly accelerate the speed at which this divide is cast away into the dustbin. You will find its hardcore believers in the same dustbin, in case you would want to have "tea" with them.

Recent defeat of the Wall Street has left its mark also. A more egalitarian, flattened of Earth approach will emerge. This approach will also be more equitable in distribution of profits and hence in generation of wealth. The spoiler can China if it chooses to hog the center stage to ensure that cuts in economic pie remain with the status quo.

Re: # 80

Masadi sahib:

"4th century BC to Adam Smith to entrepreneurship of the Apple variety"

You are indeed becoming creative, I like this branding.

Re: # 94 Riaz Mian

Allah hu Akbar.

I completely agree with your 'conclusion' regarding the shallowness of Dost-Mittar's analysis. All he did was switch words and let the chips fall where they may. Apparently, you did not like the outcome.

I am also quite impressed with your concern for the 'rising tide of fanaticism in India'. After all, as a descendant of Mohajirs who were led astray by Jinnah -- a man who had deep 'concern' for the plight of India's Muslims, but not much more to offer, your words are fully in keeping with the Quaid's example.

Re: # 93

The rise of the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), a right wing conglomerate that had allies in the Hindu Nationalist RSS and Shiv Sena organizations, has had a major impact on the question of a Uniform Civil Code to replace the Personal Law which is preferred by Muslims. It's a pet issue for the Hindutva groups.

Article 370 is about annexation of Kashmir by ending its special status to please the Hindutva voters.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 78

I think it's really shallow of you to compare form while ignoring real substance. What you did is nothing but a cheap shot at a more profound comparison offered by Roy. You can engage in such denials at your own peril....the rising tide of fanaticism in India is real. It has reared its ugly head repeatedly in anti-Muslim riots, wide-spread abuse, torture and jailing, even custodial murders of Muslims in India's Guantanos and Abu Ghraibs. Even B Raman, a hawkish security analyst, has described the situation as the "inherent unfairness of the Indian criminal justice system".

Here's how an Indian writer Yoginder Sikand described them in a article he wrote for twocircles.net:

"America's 'global war on terror' has provided a convenient cover to the Hindutva lobby and to fiercely anti-Muslim elements within the Indian state machinery to launch a concerted campaign of terror against Muslims. Large numbers of Muslims in various parts of India continue to languish in jails on trumped-up terror charges, suffering brutal torture as well as routine insults to their religion by police officials. Meanwhile, Hindu terrorists, often in league with the police and the state machinery, are allowed to run riot, unleashing violence and bloodshed on a frightening scale, while the state, the police and the courts take no firm action against them. Bomb blasts that are now occurring with frightening frequency, whose perpetrators remain unknown, are automatically blamed on Muslims, while some of these might possibly be engineered by Hindutva outfits or by elements within the state apparatus, or even by foreign intelligence agencies like the CIA or the Israeli Mossad who have a vested interest in demonizing Muslims and thereby driving India closer into the deadly American-Israeli embrace. That, in brief, was what numerous social activists as well as dozens of Muslim victims of police and state terror testified to at a public hearing on brutalities against Muslims in the name of countering 'terrorism' recently organised in Hyderabad by a group of noted human rights' activists. Going by their depositions and the verdict of the jury of eminent social activists, journalists and retired judges, it appears that powerful elements within the state apparatus are deeply implicated, along with Hindu terrorist groups, in a witch-hunt of India's Muslim citizens."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Uniform civil code and removal of article 370 are not "hindu agendas" they are secular....which planet do you hail from?

Re: # 85
Most of the interactions Pakistanis have with Indians are with India's urban middle class, which constitutes the biggest vote bank for BJP and its allies in Sangh Parivar. BJP agenda has three core issues - construction of a grand Ram temple in Ayodhya (and it's clear as daylight that BJP supporters destroyed Babri Mosque), implementation of the uniform civil Code and abolition of the constitution's Article 370 granting special status to Jammu and Kashmir. This would help the BJP retain its committed voters who support it for pursuing a 'hardline Hindutva' agenda.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"L.K. Advani began his address with a recitation from the Bhagvad Gita (he has never done that)."

Advani is on record - when asked point blank about his attitude to Hinduism - saying that the religion he admired the most was Sikhism.

Top ten list why the Pakistani left and the Indian left are similar:
...
#3: Neither can unequivocally oppose the Taliban. The Indian left because they feel the Taliban are the voices of the dispossesed poor, the Pakistani left because they are either afraid for their safety or disarmed when some small print concerning Islamic scriptures is mentioned.

#2: They are also similar in that they can both be wholeheartedly against the Indian counterparts of the Taliban without fear or worrying about giving religious offence.

#1: But the number one reason they are similar is because they both set their moral compass by scanning the skies for Amreeka bahadur.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I think Jagdish Bhagwati put it aptly when, commenting on Arundhati Roy's shrill rants on foreign direct investment and globalization, he said "Her writings on the subject are so devoid of intellectual content that one can only remark wittily that her conclusions are more obvious than her arguments."

A fair number of Indians and Pakistanis have always been enamored by Roy's bloviations. She is entirely irrelevant to the political discourse in India, and rightfully so.

Re: # 86 PMishra, what is your preference (in reference to your "vaporization" bit)

(a) A neutron bomb
(b) Daisy Cutter
(c) Hydrogen Bomb
(d) basic nuclear bumb

on

(a) Murdike
(b) Islamabad, lahore, Karanchi etc
(c) anyother place of your choice (you need to mention)

would also include (all or any one) with each bomb (bumb)

(a) Gita
(b) Koran
(c) bible
(d) Old testament

Just curious

I agree that it is pure fascist hindutva terorism that is begind india's attitude towards pakistan. For example, Mumbai attackers (almost all pakistanis) should have been served samosas and given choice of indians to kill. That would have been the right thing to do.

Also Kargil invasion was mostly imaginary, delusion caused by the horrible dal hindus insist on eating all the time. There are no jihadis crossing the LOC in Kashmir that is all Mossad propaganda. Grenades thrown at civiians in Kashmir are due to mixups, they were meant to be apples.

Also my friend who was wounded in the jihadi attack on IISc in Banglore, stupid fellow, he just shot himself with an AK-47 and pretended that a jihadi attacked him. he was a world class mathmetician, now he is unable to work. What else would expect from an indian and hindu?

I agree indians should improve their attitude towards Pakistan. There should be an attitude that for each of our people killed, we will eliminate some of the people on your side who are helping. A reward should be offered for the umm..extinction.. of the Mumbai attackers (say $1 million each) - I am happy to contribute a small part of it. The sooner the Muridke training facilities and JuD facilities are vaporized the happier we will all be. I think thats the best way to improve our attitude towards pakis.

Re: # 82 DM

For pakis, everyone in india is "right wing", except of course, AR... so that means nothing...

The right wing lunatic Majumdar (with apologies) writes "A can whine and claim all the privileges of being of the fair sex to demand special attention. B can’t do that because B is trying to compete with men on talent alone and claiming the “special privileges� and perks of being female is exactly what her bearded adversaries would like her to do – to “prove� their own hypothesis of male-female differences."

There is no such thing as competing on talent alone in a system stratified by gender. You have to change not only cultural perceptions but objective opportunities as well or the end result of this 'competing on talent alone' would be a mass of unjustly failed women and one or two successes that co-opt the whole endeavor. Structural adjustment cannot be countered by 'free and fair competition' where the 'free and fair' means 'white and men'.

Get a goddamned education and B.Sarwar cannot hold a candle to A. Roy, she is just plain simple jealous of a truth talker and so vents on Chowk.

TNITC masadi

"Hoodbhoy is a total moron and a sellout, unlike A. Roy"

++++++

Exhibit A.

major#79:

I am not bothered by labels; there are others on this site who have called me right-wing, too. And I never said that "muslims can do no wrong".

Good scrutiny, Dost Mittar.

Alumni WW, Hoodbhoy is a total moron and a sellout, unlike A. Roy, the two cannot be compared. Anil sahib knows how baseless his entire "4th century BC to Adam Smith to entrepreneurship of the Apple variety" is as explanatory model of the World System so he resorts to attacking all leftists and the author BS is simply jealous of A.Roy.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 78 DM

yep, the AR's stupidity is very clear in the rhetoric... AR is an extreme leftist, but she is not the only one making such stupid rhetoric, you as a regular leftist have been prone similar banal rhetoric as well, even though milder than what AR is doing... ( for example: your thread of "muslims can do no wrong" )

The complete hold that the regular leftists have had over the political discourse in india for 40 years has led to this situation to begin with... Lack of Right Wing parties and opinions has led to unbalanced politics and weakness in national security, economy and general national well-being...

BJP and Advani are poor immitators of a true right wing party, but thank god for atleast that...

anil:

Riaz sahib has provided an example of what I meant wrt rhetoric:

Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Qur'an. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Qur'an for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.

I imagined myself standing in the heart of a Hindu nationalist rally being addressed by the Bharatiya Janata party's (BJP) LK Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the green flags with saffron ones and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India."



I did exactly what AR said and this is the result:

"L.K. Advani began his address with a recitation from the Bhagvad Gita (he has never done that). He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Gita for guidance (he has never said that). He said Hindutva would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir (he never said that). He said India had been created as the home of Hindutva (he never said that), and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as India belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to India (he could conceivable say this). He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe (he would probably say that they have always been safe). Each point he made was applauded.

So, you see that when what is said as rhetoric is examined under reality, it completely breaks down.

Re: # 69 Pablo

Well said... That's the problem with commies and leftists in india - for some reason, they believe it's their duty to play apologists for islamic stupidity... Arundhati is an extreme example of people this tribe, but even mild leftists also do so, to the varying degree...

For example: Dost-Mittar. Even though he is against AR right now, he quite often is found to be batting for muslim stupidity - e.g. his recent post about "it's not muslims fault they don't integrate"...

anil:

Riaz sahib has provided an example of what I meant wrt rhetoric:

"Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Qur'an. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Qur'an for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.

Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Qur'an. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Qur'an for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.

I imagined myself standing in the heart of a Hindu nationalist rally being addressed by the Bharatiya Janata party's (BJP) LK Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the green flags with saffron ones and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India."

Re: # 74

anil:

Quite enjoyable. Was with my daughter this time. Went all over the country. Thanks for asking.

Re: # 73

Dost sahib:

How was India? So very true summary of AR and PH.

anil#63:

The difference between Hoodbhoy and AR is the difference between substance and rhetoric: the former is strong in substance and weak in rhetoric while the latter is strong on rhetoric and weak on substance.

Good article Beena.

Sometimes my American friends ask me about the India-Pak issue and the cultural similarities/contrasts. I resort to saying that we WERE the same 60 years ago, but have grown apart phenomenally. The results of choosing a western style democracy and secularism vs a medieval theocratic culture are there to see. The people in both nations are essentially conservative and will resort to doing the same things, if given a chance, when it comes to treatment to daughters, crime, work ethics and corruption. The difference has been set in motion by what you correctly observe ....

"Another difference is that the family in Haryana who hanged their daughter and the man she eloped with (in their own home) will be charged, tried and probably punished. In Pakistan, the ostensibly Islamic Qisas and Diyat (retribution and blood money) laws imposed by a military dictator in the 1980s allow the murder victim’s family members to ‘forgive’ the perpetrators who are often their own relatives."

I am reminded of countless such murders and crimes that have resulted in conviction and punishment to the guilty in India in stark contrast to Pakistan. Social evils like dowry, harassment to dalits have been appropriately responded by framing laws. These laws over the years have a had a positive impact in these specific sectors. There in I think India is slowly making progress and striving for a better society. The fundamentalists of any shade know that and cannot resort to their ways without thinking of the legal consequences. It remains to be seen if the same laws providing for social justice and security to common people are applied with force against fundamentalists belonging to Maoists, Islamists etc too.

Adios

Let's trade!

We will give you Arundhati Roy!

You give us the Hoodbhoy and Beena Sarwar.

And remember, we won't allow any refunds or exchanges!

Re: # 69: "Would you then criticise Mr Hoodhboy for his moral inconsistency, because of his penetrating critique of Islamist influence in Pakistan, whilst shilling for Hindutva dogmatists in India? That is the inverted position that Arundhati Roy has spun for herself."

Charging Roy with moral inconsistency is absolutely baseless. Here is how she compares the Islamic fervor in Kashmir with Hindutva zeal in India:

"Syed Ali Shah Geelani began his address with a recitation from the Qur'an. He then said what he has said before, on hundreds of occasions. The only way for the struggle to succeed, he said, was to turn to the Qur'an for guidance. He said Islam would guide the struggle and that it was a complete social and moral code that would govern the people of a free Kashmir. He said Pakistan had been created as the home of Islam, and that that goal should never be subverted. He said just as Pakistan belonged to Kashmir, Kashmir belonged to Pakistan. He said minority communities would have full rights and their places of worship would be safe. Each point he made was applauded.

I imagined myself standing in the heart of a Hindu nationalist rally being addressed by the Bharatiya Janata party's (BJP) LK Advani. Replace the word Islam with the word Hindutva, replace the word Pakistan with Hindustan, replace the green flags with saffron ones and we would have the BJP's nightmare vision of an ideal India."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

On the murky question of Arundhati's tacit and sometimes unambivalent justification for Islamist extremists and terrorists as part of the AmeriKKKa - Zion Nazi narrative of the Chomsky school, you can contrast this moral failure with someone mentioned earlier in this thread, Pervez Hoodhboy.

Whilst Mr Hoodhboy offers a rounded critique of the ideology and dogmatic implementation of Islamic nationalism and violence in Pakistan's power structure, he does not write apologia for Hindu extremism in India as a counterpoint. And yet, Roy sups with Hamid Gul and the Islamists, romanticising and offering apologia for their explicit acts. How is that unity and solidarity with the Pakistani Left?

Imagine Mr Hoodhboy 'contextualising' the explicit acts of Hindutvadi ideological violence as part of a meta-narrative - how could such a person sit down with a Leftist in India who confronts and opposes that ideology at home?

Would you then criticise Mr Hoodhboy for his moral inconsistency, because of his penetrating critique of Islamist influence in Pakistan, whilst shilling for Hindutva dogmatists in India? That is the inverted position that Arundhati Roy has spun for herself.

Re: # 62

Anil, I still think Cohen sums up the Indian attitudes toward Pak well in the following words: "Indians do not know whether they want to play cricket and trade with Pakistan, or whether they want to destroy it."

I believe there is a great of internal tension and ambivalence about Pak in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 66: "Next time you organize a function of your group and invite good speakers please let me know."

Anil,
Sure. It'll be my pleasure to have you participate.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 64

Riaz:

Your statement is true, but at times people act and others react only for the sake of it or grabbing attention. AR has done that, Indian Taliban is trying to do it. The latter is more dangerous in India, than Pakistani Taliban in Pakistan.

Next time you organize a function of your group and invite good speakers please let me know. My email is anilkapuria@yahoo.com.

Anil,

Here's an example of how Roy challenges Indians to think about the real issues faced by the vast majority of Indians:

"On a day when the newspapers were full of moving obituaries by beautiful people about the hotel rooms they had stayed in, the gourmet restaurants they loved (ironically one was called Kandahar), and the staff who served them, a small box on the top left-hand corner in the inner pages of a national newspaper (sponsored by a pizza company I think) said "Hungry, kya?" (Hungry eh?). It then, with the best of intentions I'm sure, informed its readers that on the international hunger index, India ranked below Sudan and Somalia. But of course this isn't that war. That one's still being fought in the Dalit bastis of our villages, on the banks of the Narmada and the Koel Karo rivers; in the rubber estate in Chengara; in the villages of Nandigram, Singur, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa, Lalgarh in West Bengal and the slums and shantytowns of our gigantic cities."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 63
Anil,
It is not unusual to dismiss someone who you dislike because she challenges you to think differently from the conventional wisdom and media propaganda in India about Kashmir, Pakistan and terrorism. Many Pakistanis dismiss Hoodbhoy just as you are dismissing Roy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 61

Riaz:

I have read Hoodbhoy, and am very impressed. AR on the other hand is no where near him. She is more of a rabble rouser. Please just look at the words you quoted. Hoodbhoy on the other hand has genuine issues that he has taken up.

Tahmed sahib and Riaz:

" tahmed: "what has 1000 years of servitude to muslims done to you hindus??"

Riaz: I think you've raised a good question..."

The above indicate that there is a strong lingering attitude among Pakistanis which reinforces the message in the above dialog between two knowledgeable Pakistanis(Americans).

Indian identity is precisely getting defined in the fashion (Tendulkar, Bollywood etc.) rather than "To or not to be anti-Pakistan". There is lingering nostalgia, ignorance and may even be a feeling of loss among grand children of the families that were affected by the partition.

Greater the distance from the border, lesser are the feelings, so that Winning Pakistani teams victory round can receive a standing ovation in Chennai.

Re: # 55

Anil,
As I said before, I see Roy as a Cassandra...you don't have to believe or agree with everything she says. But every society needs someone like her to confront realities that would otherwise be swept under the rug.

I think you should also read Pervez Hoodbhoy of Pakistan who I also regard as a Cassandra, not unlike Roy. I invited him for an alumni event in Silicon Valley in 2007 and many of my Indian friends were very surprised to hear and see someone from Pakistan who is so brutally honest and highly critical of Pakistan's government and society.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

What has 1000 years of turkish servitude has done to you TAhmed, :)

You think what doesn't belong to you as your house.

Re: # 56

AR chooses her words to provoke the right wingers, and right wingers for sure respond. Besides herself and right wingers hardly anyone pays attention to her and her causes, just as is the case with right wingers causes.

From whatever, I have of AR and Hoodbhoy, I think comparing the two is insulting Hoodbhoy.

Re: # 53: tahmed: "what has 1000 years of servitude to muslims done to you hindus??"

I think you've raised a good question about the attitude of the anti-Muslim Hindutva bigots on Chowk. Stephen Cohen of Brookings has recently tried to explain the India-Pakistan relationship. It appears to be strongly influenced by the rising Hindutva tide in the urban middle class of India, most of whom strongly influence policy, whether BJP is in or out of power. Here's what Cohen said:

In their quest for an identity, some Indians tried to replicate Pakistan’s failure by manufacturing a “Hindu� Indian identity—the so-called Hindutva movement. But there is no all-Indian Hindu identity—India is riven by caste and linguistic differences, and Aishwarya Rai and Sachin Tendulkar are more relevant rallying points for more Indians than any Hindu caste or sect, let alone the Sanskritized Hindi that is officially promulgated.

India is groping now for a national identity that would allow it to approach Pakistan with confidence, but there is no consensus on how to mesh India’s identity with that of Pakistan’s. Indians do not know whether they want to play cricket and trade with Pakistan, or whether they want to destroy it. There is still no consensus on talking with Pakistan: sometimes the government and its spokesman claim that they do not want to deal with the generals, but when the generals are out of the limelight, they complain that the civilians are too weak to conclude a deal. The default option seems to be that Pakistan is now someone else’s problem--in this case the United States’. Not a few Indian generals and strategists have told me that if only America would strip Pakistan of its nuclear weapons then the Indian army could destroy the Pakistan army and the whole thing would be over. This of course is both silly and dangerous—and could lead to a catastrophic misjudgment when the fifth India-Pakistan crisis does come. We were close to one last year, I have no doubt that the people who tried to trigger a new India-Pakistan war will try again.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

anundhati seems like all talk to me - and so clearly belongs on chowk. if she is really serious about helping mankind, what has she done to help the wretched of the earth (of whom there is no shortage in india)?

"The last is a truism, even a vegetable can recognize"

+++++

It certainly impresses Riaz.

Re: # 51

Riaz:

I have read Arundhati Roy and have seen her in Nizamuddin where she also lived in Delhi for a while. I find her writing fascinating, but her blind ambition to take up social causes is very disgusting.

The following are good play on words and nothing else:

"We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies.�

“Like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we're expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it's all been said and done before...�

“But November isn't September, 2008 isn't 2001, Pakistan isn't Afghanistan and India isn't America.�

The last is a truism, even a vegetable can recognize.

One does not have to a person of AR’s caliber to use truism as revelations.

There is no doubt the right wingers in India target her. These right wingers are equal rabble rouser, may be less intelligent than her, but very high on emotions. I frankly both (right wingers and AR) are attention seekers, and are rebel without a cause.

Only agenda they have is to create Indian Taliban, and for her to act or react to ensure Indian Taliban is created. As far as I am concern they are equal partner in crime.

Someone had posted on Chowk the link to Musharraff’s speech in India. I personally thought that kind of interaction is needed more at the public forums. I am confident Sonia Gandhi, Man Mohan Singh will be able to deal with such public platform in Pakistan also. Karan Thapar was being sensational.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#50 Cobra: what is puzzling is...you are like someone coming to my house to tell me how much you hate me. fine. then you say you dont want any relations with me. fine. then you sit down on the chair and say (like major just did) that this is your house anyway.

what has 1000 years of servitude to muslims done to you hindus??

Re: # 51
riaz katua...
the truth is that...in spite of Govt. and court passed the bill to allow amarnath shrine board to acquire the land, katua/musla rascals (your brothers in Kashmir) resorted to violence to stop the acquiring of the land...disrupting normal life is not the monopoly of katuas/muslas alone...sometimes, civilised people/indians also use the tactic as tit for tat....
so, the first part you have to ignore due to solidarity to your brothers of truncated d***...here is what the people oppose her double standard....

keep it up beduinoid....

Re: # 34: "but if you are suggesting that all those Indians who do not respect Arundhati Roy for her rabidly anti-India rantings are merely fanatics, then 80% of India's population"

I don't think 80% of Indians who live in rural India have even heard of Roy. It's just the 80% of the city folks most of whom probably vote for BJP and its allies any way. Besides, Cassandras are generally not liked anywhere because they tell the harsh truths about society.

As an example, here's are excerpts from brilliant pieces Roy has written recently:

"We've forfeited the rights to our own tragedies. As the carnage in Mumbai raged on, day after horrible day, our 24-hour news channels informed us that we were watching "India's 9/11". Like actors in a Bollywood rip-off of an old Hollywood film, we're expected to play our parts and say our lines, even though we know it's all been said and done before... But November isn't September, 2008 isn't 2001, Pakistan isn't Afghanistan and India isn't America. So perhaps we should reclaim our tragedy and pick through the debris with our own brains and our own broken hearts so that we can arrive at our own conclusions."

"Days of massive protest forced the (Kashmir) valley to shut down completely. Within hours the protests spread from the cities to villages. Young stone pelters took to the streets and faced armed police who fired straight at them, killing several. For people as well as the government, it resurrected memories of the uprising in the early 90s. Throughout the weeks of protest, hartal (strikes) and police firing, while the Hindutva publicity machine charged Kashmiris with committing every kind of communal excess, the 500,000 Amarnath pilgrims completed their pilgrimage, not just unhurt, but touched by the hospitality they had been shown by local people.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

There should be no relations with Pakistan at any level, period.

Re: # 38

Cobra:

"..Did you know this woman, Arundhati, supports Taliban?..."

Where did AR supported Taliban? Can you provide some link?

Re: # 46
Ganja...

These so called people to people contacts are meant to create some positive image about Pakistan....

Now, how many people travel from India to Pakistan ( non muslas) for tourism purpose?
Not many...

How many Indian news papers and channels cover Pakistan?
Very little. That too, through Reuters etc. for its association with Islamic Terrorism...

How many people in India are aware of Pakistani demographics, their habits etc....?
Very little. Some segment in north India....

Now, all the story about donation boxes in front of mosques and jihadi infrastructure is not what the Indian media investigation brought in front of us...all that we got from foreign media...VISA constraint is very strict for Pakistani nationals (in India)....and you know the reason...
4 wars, so many allahu kabooms, dirty beduinism....

Some clue here....

Nepal and India border is almost soft border...no VISA is required from either side....
There is no quota-restriction imposed on Bhutan-India travel...If Mynmar returns to normalcy/democracy, India-Mynmar relationship will be also in similar way...

So, here we get the migrants from BD and Pakistan, who wants India to treat Pakiland and BD, the same way like Nepal, Bhutan, Mynmar...whatever may be the atmosphere....

Re: # 45 achmed - learn to read, it's right at the top: "Chowk: India Pakistan Ideas and Identities"...

chowk is as much a "paki website" as you are a holy bedouin - much as you want to be one, prophetboy... Ha...

nkj ... I don't think you quite understood what I meant.

My point was that about the futility of people-to-people meetings between activists from Pakistan and India who have some kind of altruistic intention of solving the respective problems of each others society. There is nothing that someone called Beena Sarwar can do to improve the life and conditions of the socially marginalised in India. And there is nothing that Indian activists can do to help the situation in Pakistan. It just strikes me as pointless and futile and as an exercise in navel-gazing. In cultural terms what is there that India and Pakistan don't know about each other? Not much. We are familiar with each others musicians, and some of the biggest advances that Pakistani writers receive are from Indian publishers and amongst the Indian literati.

India needs to look far beyond her immediate borders. India needs to bring young students, activists, journalists and artists from places like Brazil and America (especially America), the European Union, Japan, China, even 'smaller' nations like Vietnam and Cambodia and Phillipenes, because these are the people who are going to shape the future of their countries, and we need to develop cultural exchange and intimacy with them.

#44 lets start with all the sri rams on chowk who want nothing to do with pakistan going to some indian website.

Re: # 42
exactly...
apart from business ties (that does not need much people to people contact), India should avoid Pakiland and should treat Pakistan like any other middle east countries...
Now, the problem is that, people like Kuldip Nayar etc.., whose ancestral home was in current day Pakistan and they even spent their childhood, there, will not let leave Pakistan lead a fully beduinistic society...You ask average Pakistanis, they will deny existance of people like Kuldip Nayar (anyhow arabic moon god created Pakistan and Muhammed Bin Khashame brought this land from Arabia. How come these indians claim to be here any point of time? Raise this issue in OIC/OMC or next terrorist summit in Mecca ( aka Haj) )....We the bongs see similar problem in Kolkata too...Those people migrated from East Pakistan/BD want to enhance people to people contact with BD....We need to change the attitude of these people( migrants)...otherwise, it will be like this only....

India should initiate cultural ties with Brazil,South Africa, Thailand and strengthen it's ties with Japan....
The semi-beduin countries should be like any other beduin country, or little inferior....

bismillahi al r-rahmani al r-rahim
bismillahi al rahman al rahim
bismillah al rahman al rahim
bismi Allah al rahman al rahim
bismillahi-r rahmani-r rahim
bismillaah ir rahmaan ir raheem
bismillah ir rahman ir rahim


Friends, I have everyday, been inviting you to join me in faith using your freewill. No force, total tolerance. Plese read the message of peace and love. This is allah's greatest gift to all mankind. The right path is in front you and no need to search for something you are not likely to find. Read it and in freewill join me and become friends.

Just Jinnah, the greatest of modern musalman, invented Typographical Number theory and used his genius to translate it into the resolutions and speeches, Mohtarma Arundhati Roy Invented the Algebra of Infinite justice. This new algebra is a variation of algebra in infinite dimensions.

Both these people were ableto do it because they are people of the book and new the book very well. Musalmans at heart, in mind, and in life.

Islam teaches you all of this. So plese jon in my afith and attain peace, obtain love, and friendship and tranquility.

Freewill. Freewill. Freewill.



then I tell, Jinnah was an advanced mathematician, because he was a devote musalman and had intimate knowledge of the Quran. Samar, do you have this?

He knew of the typographical number theory (TNT) long before Hofstadter came up with it for natural numbers. Jinnah was like a good musalman, and using knowkledge he gained from quran, he came up with this typographical number theory. Simply he said, actually three axioms

Axiom 1:
~[(Muslims0+Hindus0) = India]

Axiom 2:
Muslims0+Muslims0+Muslims0+Muslims0+Muslims0+Muslims0 = Hindus0

Axiom 3:
Muslims0 = India0

It is the greatness of the man, that he translated these axioms into the Lahore declaration, and messed up the HIndians. Out foxed Gandhi and Nehru, who didnot know about TNT which Jinnah used. Hence Gandhi and Nehru taught TNT was two nation, which is really no no.

Jinnah the great

Mohtarma Arundhati Roy Great musalman.

Anyway, as some have pointed out, there is nothing that Indian activists can do to assist Pakistanis, and there is nothing that Pakistani activists can do to help solve problems in Indian society. These conferences have the whiff of navel gazing.

Indian civil society should organise more people to people to contact with activists, journalists, students and artists from America, Japan, Brazil and the European Union, to name just a few countries and regions that we must increase our intimate friendships with. These are going to be our future trading partners, and a grassroots movement between us and them, and the cultural wealth we can share, will be more helpful and invigorating than cultural exchanges with Pakistan, at least for the foreseeable future.

It's very difficult to discuss the ideas and opinions that Arundhati Roy propounds because of how she polarises people. For a start, she is not the only dissenting voice in Indian society. She is high profile because she won the Booker Prize and belongs to the Noam Chomsky / Howard Zinn / John Pilger school of seminaraians and polemicists.

My issue with Arundhati Roy is primarily this; her apologia for Islamist terrorism. There are many people who are able to not play a zero sum game of saying that Hindu extremism is bad, but Islamic terrorists who shoot children dead with machine guns is unfortunate, but 'understandable'.

When the Left starts to offer apologia for this, for me it ceases to be of the Left, and enters a dark confluence of extremist Right and Left, which is some of the space that Roy occupies. Supping with the Hamid Guls and child murderers in the name of 'rebellion' against oppressors is the most serious criticism she has to face. Those who don't see this are often those who share her view on this. By all accounts, according to an earlier post, Beena Sarwar might belong to that school.

So - it was only one man shouting, and he was kicked out. Dawn reported something about Pakistani visitors to India being roughed up.

Re: # 38
Interesting... even liberal pakis can't manage to get out of bedouinism mindset... wow, that's some liberalism... Ha Ha...

The difference, my dear Beena, is that your "liberals" require a non-momin man to convert to mominiat to marry pious woman (case in point Asma Jahangir's niece.) Where as our liberals would willingly sale their soul to be liked by Pakistanis. Did you know this woman, Arundhati, supports Taliban?

Re: # 28 leenah
i understand what u r saying. i understand our culpability, our shortsightedness. but does this not burden us with a certain level of responsibility for that shortsightedness, that hatred that u r talking about. that being so, what i don't understand is why should Allah(SWT) protect us from the consequences of our choices? if i am intent upon going and jumping off the cliff, don't i deserve what is coming to me as a result?

i am afraid i am still lost.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

And if this Arundhati Roy is so popular, why doesn't she stand in the election ? I will tell you why. She is certain to lose her deposit. After rapid leftists and anti-India muslims are still a tiny minority in India.

Only way she could win an election in India would be if her Pakistani fans (millions and millions of them - for obvious reasons, foremost among them being that great Paki peacenik Hamid Gul who Roy was photographed with) were some how made eligible to vote in an Indian election. Then she would win handsomely !!!

RiazHaq : "Roy is much more comparable to Pervez Hoodbhoy, who uses his academic freedom at a government funded university in the capital of Pakistan to bravely criticize the powerful ruling elite, including the feudals, the military and the mullahs. Both are fearless and very well respected by everyone, except by the fanatics in their native countries."

Listen O'Pakistan Alumni Worldwide , I dunno about this Hoodbhoy character, but if you are suggesting that all those Indians who do not respect Arundhati Roy for her rabidly anti-India rantings are merely fanatics, then 80% of India's population (which does not include muslims and leftists) qualify as extreme fanatics. We are talking of 900 million people. Lots of fanatics, dont ya think, O Mr.Pakistan Alumni Whatever ?

Re: # 32
sorry...I missed something....what does matter for me?

Re: # 31 ngk it does matter, and as proof I give you, yourself :D :P

Re: # 29
nb...
well said...
Regarding Utpala (She must be non musla..Utpala means lotus in Sanskrit)....
This is surprising to me,too...There is minimum (non musla) people to people contact between India and Pakistan...Indian print and electronic media spends very little on Pakistan...Pakistani effect on Indian day to day life (culture, art...) is almost null and void......and btw, how the state of women in Pakistan effect state of women in India?

A few questions Beena

(a) What has Arundhati Roy got to do with the article?

(a hint: Can Arundhati Roy do the things she did or make the statements she made, in Pakistan or any other country and still carry on as usual?)

(b) what do you expect Indians to be or do when you turn up with an olive branch? Dance on the streets?

When you visit a country, one should never expect boquets all the way. Expect brick bats first, and the way you handle the brick bats informs the way you would be greeted the next time. If you reaction is to turn your little nose up even more, expect more brick bats.

Hi Beena, I really don't think you can compare your situation with that of Arundhati's? When was the last time you tore up your passport and wanted to secede from Pakistan? Things have come to a pass with Arundhati where people suspect her of saying things only for shock value. I do think she is anti-national because she has one standard for India and the West and one for the rest of the world. I supported her stance on Phoolan Devi and early in the Narmada dam agitation, but I cannot accept that Hindu fundamentalists are evil incarnate while the Taliban is fighting oppression in Pakistan.
About this statement from 'Utpala', “How can we in India be happy until there is a pro-people, pro-women government in Pakistan?� I have only this to say: there has never been a truly pro-women government in India, including those led by women. Indian society even today - Hindu, Muslim, and everyone else- still does not treat women as equals. I think Indian women should work on these issues instead of worrying about a state over which they have no control.

Re: # 26 banjara286,

The people across both sides of border are WE. It is we who form the awaam, the janta, and also unfortunately, the ultimate instruments in the hands of those who know no glory but the one achieved by brandishing the opponent as 'kaafir', or 'ghaddaar'.
If you talk to a lay man in any street of Lahore or Delhi, he would not be so full of poison against the other view point, but when a 'leader' begins to lead, the communion of mutual hatred leaps out with monstrous proportions. There is no sense you can knock into the head of a charged mob then.
As our misfortune would have it, we are perpetually bombarded with round-the-clock hatred sermons from our expanding media. It is making people less tolerant of an opposing view. The role that media is playing is of a catalyst for the polarization of the society(on a collective basis), hence being a source of escalating extremist tendencies.

Our shortsightedness lies in our inability to let 'leaders' lead us into a mad foray of destruction. It lies in being manipulated by those who, either carry the name of religion, or of a greater India, as the selling commodity. It lies in our propensity to adopt the 'jingoist' approach as a means to handle all discerning views.

Hope I make myself clear now.
Great day all

Beena...
Keeping aside, India...

Do any other country want to listen to what Paki/Musla (so called) journos want to say?
Nope...
Pakistan is almost an international pariah (apart from some Chinku and musla countries)...Why India has to accomodate Pakis?

I don't think majority of Indians want "friendship" or "enemity" with Pakistan...The dream option for India would be to send beduinoids/muslas living in India to Pakistan and then relocate Pakistan somewhere near arab deserts, their holy land...That will be good for Pakis and Indians (both)...but somehow that is not feasible....
I don't know, what for the Pakis come to India or some nuts in India shout at visiting Pakis (do they expect some positive effect on Paki mind? Do they expect that will drive away Pakis from beduinism and bring back to civility?)...I don't think Pakistan is different from Oman, Sudan, Somalia, Afghanistan, Yemen or for the best UAE etc.....in the eyes of Indians....

Re: # 6 leenah,
i am extremely confused by this. why "may we be saved from the havoc that our own shortsightedness is bringing onto us"?

Re: # 22
majumder....
muslas were irritants in India throughout history...
Bankim Babu was clear in definining who is the greatest enemy of indian civilisation....

Re: # 16
hasho...
"While the Muslim Nationalism led to division of India, the Hindu nationalism will not allow promotion of good relations with a country which was carved out of India, the most important symbol of Hindu..."
So, what Indians should do? Like Pakis be slave to arab beduinism and engaged in all sorts of crime or allow the medieval barbarims to spread?

The assertiveness (post liberalization) of Indian middle class, brought India much more growth and achievement and more muslaism/beduinism brought hellfire missiles (and aid though) to Pakiland....
...more and more Islam/ beduinization of Pakiland,more the probability, you will get bigger bomb from US bombers and will get 72 smelly arab virgins and some camels when you will reach little upper layer....

Re: # 21

As a Cassandra Extraordinaire, Roy is much more comparable to Pervez Hoodbhoy, who uses his academic freedom at a government funded university in the capital of Pakistan to bravely criticize the powerful ruling elite, including the feudals, the military and the mullahs. Both are fearless and very well respected by everyone, except by the fanatics in their native countries. IMHO, Sarwar does not belong in this category of super Cassandras...she is still working on it.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

HP saeen,

.........where the Muslims in central India were in the 40s when they defined religion as the basis of a Nation.........

Why single out the Muslims of Central India? Did not the Muslims of Punjab, Sindh and Bengal define religion as the basis of a nation in 1940s? Was Ch Rahmat Ali a "Central Indian" Muslim.

Post 1920, religion has been the main (if not the sole) marker of nationhood for almost all Indians/Pakis/BDs.

Regards

It is highly not-on-the-dot to compare (for example) the likes of Beena Sarwar to (for example) the likes of Arundhati Roy. (Note: the two names are to be considered illustrative only.) For simplicity, let us refer to those (illustrative examples) as B and A.

B and A are two very different items! There is no analogy between them except for the superficial gender analogy.

A has it easy! A can badmouth whoever she likes. B has no such luxury. B has to look over her shoulder before and after expressing every little word.

Neither A nor B is at liberty to take too much liberty with certain people – but only one of them is honest about her reasons on the inside.

A knows how to raise the roof and create maximum noise without accomplishing anything except get attention to self – B has the objective of creating minimum disturbance while trying to gain maximum progress on issues of importance.

A can whine and claim all the privileges of being of the fair sex to demand special attention. B can’t do that because B is trying to compete with men on talent alone and claiming the “special privileges� and perks of being female is exactly what her bearded adversaries would like her to do – to “prove� their own hypothesis of male-female differences.

B knows exactly how to make her point – A has no clue what a point is! B has ideas – A has…, oh well!

B has the sharpness of a superhuman analytical mind – A has a vision as clear as that of a bat!

Indeed, B and A are very different! Comparing B to A is not even like comparing apples to oranges because after all – apples and oranges are still fruits.

Comparing B to A is like comparing fruits to fruitcakes!

There were two recent encounters a little different from this one involving South Asian peaceniks. Both involved Musharraf and Indians. The first one at Stanford University was described as follows by Stanford Daily editorial:

After delivering a nearly 55-minute speech that highlighted the importance of combating terrorism, resolving political strife in the Middle East and South Asia and other issues, Musharraf faced a question-and-answer session with the Stanford community. No sooner had the microphones been turned on did the cat-calls start flying. Enraged Indian nationalists and other emotionally charged students questioned everything from the legitimacy of Musharraf’s rule to the inherent corruption of the Pakistani government. The end result was ultimately a back-and-forth between strong-willed, would-be inquisitors and an equally defiant, finger-wagging Musharraf.

Undeterred by Indian hostility, Musharraf then went to Delhi to jump into what Karan Thapar described as " the lions den". Here's an excerpt from his piece:

Last Saturday, as he held the India Today Conclave spellbound for over two and a half hours, my mind jumped to our own politicians and I couldn’t help compare Musharraf to them. Would Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi or LK Advani and Prakash Karat willingly submit themselves to such hostile questioning from an Indian audience and emerge both unscathed and with their amour propre intact?
The question answers itself. Yet Musharraf has done just that but with one critical difference. The audience — the lions’ den — he faced was not his compatriots but Indians, who could be more accurately described as his enemies.
In contrast, it’s not just impossible to picture Manmohan Singh or Sonia Gandhi addressing 500 Pakistanis in the banquet hall of the Marriott in Islamabad; the fact of the matter is they are not even prepared to visit the country. And I would hate to think what could happen if they were questioned the way Musharraf was. Perish the thought!

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 5
neembu...
this is typical beduinistic way of thinking....are you a k'tua/musla? most probably....
an irritant like Suzane A Roy, is irritant...i have not seen her writing article with some positive agenda ( like how we can improve school drop outs, how can we reduce corruption in public service etc...)...only once, she said the right stuff..."India needs freedom from Kashmiri muslas more than the Kashmiri jihadis"...

Re: # 16
that was a very good post and in fact worthy of being an article itself. Right wing jackals are everywhere and their intolrence is legendary. Although they dominate the media but even one voice of dissent is abused out of proportion

I don't know, why that lady (Suzane) gets so much publicity...She is close to NDTV (Pranoy Roy) and may be he (Pranoy Roy) is influencing to keep her in media high light......

and Ms. Beena, most part of Indian media is well balanced (IE, Statesman and host of other regional newspapers)....
I have not seen crap like paktribune, anywhere else....

One sample....
http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php?id=214427

Can you please stop comparing Paki stuff with Indians?
This is real irritating.....

The idea of people to people contact was good in the 70s but perhaps now the whole thing does not matter. In the 70s and 80s people to people contact with India was a good idea in the sense that most of the people working for the democracy in Pakistan got inspiration from a secular and democratic India.

The politics between the two countries has since changed. The rise of religion based nationalism in India simply eroded the secular basis of Indian politics. Indian Hindus are at exactly the same point now, where the Muslims in central India were in the 40s when they defined religion as the basis of a Nation. Indian Hindus now define Indian nationalism based on Hindu religion. While the Muslim Nationalism led to division of India, the Hindu nationalism will not allow promotion of good relations with a country which was carved out of India, the most important symbol of Hindu identity.

I think the leftist and the progressives do have the right ideas but sticking to one approach year after year and not adjusting to the changing times is just plain ridiculous. In both India and Pakistan rightist have become enormously popular and effectively control the ideological battleground. The rightist politics is not based on peace and friendship, it thrives on creating artificial conflicts and that is exactly what is going on in both countries. I think the progressives in both countries need to rethink their strategy. The people to people contact is not effective as the governments manipulate all public discourse and resources and they can easily nullify all the efforts that the progressives make over the years in just days.

A word about Ms. Arundhati Roy’s situation in India.

She is probably the most vocal voice India has that differs with the official rightwing ideology of the major political parties in India. Her voice not only gets attention but she is immediately billed as anti-Indian and the howling, rabid rightwing followers of the ruling parties tell her to leave India and go to Pakistan.

We have seen this phenomenon in Pakistan before the 90s when some prominent figures like Faiz Ahmed Faiz, Habib Jalib, Wali Khan, and the entire Baloch and Sindhi leadership was dubbed as Anti Pakistan.

Strangely enough, the Pak TV that now plays Faiz Sahib’s ghazals often, never did that as long as he lived. Except for a brief period during the ZAB rule, none of his ghazals were played on radio or tv. He himself was never invited on Pakistan TV(except in the ZAB era). Habib Jalib was sent to jail and there were plenty of people in Pakistan who called him a traitor and Indian agent. There were many voices that actually asked him to leave the country and live in India. The poor Ahmed Faraz and Fahmida Riaz actually had to go India to save their lives.

I remember discussing the 1971 days with Mrs. Nasim Ashraf Malik in Lahore. Since we had no clue abt those times, she gave us specific instances when her own neighbors told her that she was an Indian agent and practically forced her and her family to move out of their home for a short period of time. All due to her and her husband Shamim Ashraf Malik’s active protest against the army action in Bangladesh.

Like Faiz and Habib Jalib were harassed in Pakistan, Ms. Roy will be hounded by the rightwing jackals in India for a long time.

Re: # 8That was a good post. I fully agree with you Mr Dost Mittar that extreme one sided opinions makes it easy for the critics to discredit it.
Regarding Mis Roy, I would like to add that for such individuals it becomes more difficult to even adopt a middle ground with a passage of time. The reason being that that to protect their reputation as a liberal left winger they have a tendency to bend backwards. When they do try to give a balanced opinion they risk being branded as a "closet" bigot!!!
Excellent point about media as well. Frankly though i really dont think that there is any difference between the media of two countries. Both are trying to sensationalise and whip a particualr brand of national extremism

When it was time to stand up and be counted - which is to say, after the Jihadi attacks in Mumbai in November - Beenaji was busy blaming Indians for their 'knee-jerk' reactions in pointing the finger at Pakistani sources.

She remained consistent in this blame game. Even after the antecedents of Kasab and his handlers were exposed conclusively by British media. To date I don't recall a clear unequivocal statement from Beenaji about the Jihadi organizations for this particular act of terrorism.

I am not sure where this places her in the jingoism, nationalism, patriotism, Jihadism, feminism, misogynism, left or right wing topology.

We are pleased to share a call for nominations for the NYU-Scholars at Risk /
Vivian G. Prins Global Scholars Fellowships for the 2009-10 academic year. We
invite you to share it with colleagues in the NYU community, and to consider
nominating candidates for visits to your center, department or school.

Fellowship details:
The fellowships are available to support temporary visits to NYU of up to one
year by professors, lecturers, researchers and other intellectuals who have
shown potential as important contributors to their discipline and community,
and who suffer intimidation or persecution in their home country or country of
current residence.

Fellowships are expected to last for a maximum of one year. Fellows will be
appointed through the inviting host center, department or school. Award
amounts will vary based on the fellow's level and needs, as well as other
available support. Total fellowship awards will be in the range of $50,000 -
$70,000 per annum (including fringes and any additional host support).

Deadline and application:
Fellowship applications are available at: http://scholarsatrisk.nyu.edu. The
deadline for first round nominations is June 1, 2009. Nominations will be
accepted on a rolling basis thereafter until available funds are committed.
The fellowships are provided by the Provost's Office, thanks to the generous
support of the Vivian G. Prins Foundation, to support the work of the Scholars
at Risk Network, an international network of universities working to promote
academic freedom and to defend threatened scholars worldwide. Scholars at Risk
is headquartered at NYU.

For questions, please contact:
Robert Quinn, Director, Scholars at Risk Network, New York University, 194
Mercer Street, 4th Floor, 1-212-998-2179 (tel), scholarsatrisk@nyu.edu.

Hi Beena,I missed your articles on some hot issues.Welcome Back.!!!!!

Re: # 10

I am all for more "jingoism" against jihad... For far too long - bhindoos have taken threat of jihad far less seriously... Commie-infested elite had always tried to hush things up and play it down...

But not any more...

Re: # 9

Major sahab,

Yeh kaisa comment hai. The media is not downplaying it is disinforming and for once I have to agree with DM as the Indian English media is not representative of the society except a tiny denationalised elite but pak's is.

The Indian media raises passions in a very jingoistic way that instead of war we were going to play a cricket match. The pak media for all its faults whether rightist or centrist addresses the issue the analysis may be wrong many a time but the general sentiment expressed on this issue is in tune with the populace's thinking.

Express an anti muslim opinion in India and see the fun.

Sanatani

Re: # 8 Dm
[As far the media in India, the less said the better... I would say that it is more jingoistic and irresponsible ...]

Nah - I think Indian Media is doing it right... for far too long, paki-related issues has been downplayed in indian media...

Beena:

Arundhati Roy has every right to her opinion and her opponents have every right to condemn her opinion, as long as they do not stop her from expressing her opinion freely without any threats. In my opinion, she would be more effective if she were more balanced in her criticism; the same is true of the Pakistanis critical of their society. When criticism is unbalanced, it becomes easier for the critics to discredit the person, thus reducing their effectiveness and they end up merely speaking to the converted.

As far the media in India, the less said the better, especially the electronic media. I would say that it is more jingoistic and irresponsible than its Pakistani counterpart, maybe because in the cut-throat competition of the market place, the one catering to the lowest common denominator wins.

"also, perhaps someone could speak to the unacceptable misogyny that drowns anti a. roy bias...is this institutionalized patriarchy as usual, even in the subcontinent's self proclaimed democracy?"

++++++

Arundhati Roy engages in the public space of ideas and opinions. If her ideas and opinions are criticised it's not because she is a woman, it's because of what she says.

When it comes to extremist tendencies, both sides of the border have been equally unfortunate. The more zealot and less rationale mindset is expressive in many social behaviors and cultural norms, and to a great degree, is a trade mark feature of the sociology of the Indo-Pak subcontinent.
Be it nationalist approach in India, or TNSM in Pakistan, both seek to impose their own doctrine of self-suited versions of ideals. And for this purpose, each lobby exploits the masses to disturb the emotional tectonic plates so as to manipulate the eruptions of these emotional volcanoes.

Since we are hardly sure of the strength of our own argument, we seek the strength in pointing out the weakness of the other's argument. The result is a you-are-wrong-I-am-right attitude. Now, add to it the ravenousness of the unruly beast of media, and here you go! we get a charged mob of frenzied ideas without any sense of direction, and armed by a lot of animosity at hands.

May we be saved from the havoc that our own shortsightedness is bringing onto us. Ameen.

also, perhaps someone could speak to the unacceptable misogyny that drowns anti a. roy bias...is this institutionalized patriarchy as usual, even in the subcontinent's self proclaimed democracy?

"institutional corollary of a larger conceptualization"

+++++

What is the larger conceptualization that the media in India is an institutional corollary of?

Just curious.

Re: # 2

what the heck is Anti-Progressivism?... LOL

India's media is an institutional corollary of a larger conceptualization. And their anti progressivism is a serious problem for them.

I honestly wonder what good these meetings do, and what they can actually achieve.

There is nothing that Indian activists can do to better the situation in Pakistani, and nothing that Pakistani activists can do to better the lot of the oppressed in India.

I think a lot of it is sentimental navel-gazing, to be honest.