The Villain of Villains

#171 peonoftheswat

[ajeya seems a muttarwa bhenchod saab.]

Pedophile-follower,

I am not sure what "muttarwa" is, although it seems to smell like camel-dung. While I could try to debate whether I am a "bhenchod", in your case there is no debate. There is absolutely no doubt that either you are married to your cousin sister, OR you are descended from such a union within the last few generations. Which officially makes you either a "bhenchod", or descended from one.

Also, consider this. On top of being a bhenchod/bhenchod offspring, you are the byproduct of rape which your great-great....great grandmother experienced (this is historically accurate, BTW) when the "light of Islam" arrived in our subcontinent.

Chew on that for a while. It's all true. Ask me. I'll supply the historical and scientific proof.

Re: # 165

Masadi sahib:

"...BTW, Ph.D.'s in British Univ take only three years, so 4th year must be to put you through rehabilitation or remedial program...."

University of Edinburgh saved itseld from figments of your imagination. The other possibility is that you imagined a four year Ph.D. at University of Edinbugh to boost your ego and image here. For your information, British Universities had (probably worse now) very limited (read none) funds for finance research. All Ph.D. funds came from SRC (Science Research Council) for science and engineering, and SSRC (Social Science Research Council). These were strictly limited to three years.

I think Univ. of Edinburgh is a imagined to throw a blanket over the eyes, just as you had done claiming you website was banned in Pakistan.

Re: # 170 ajeya seems a muttarwa bhenchod saab.he is trying to be funny saab but bhindians don't have to be funny to make people laugh saab.All they have to do is to 'behave' they normally do saab.it would make everyone laugh saab.

peon thinks it was wrong of tahmed saab to insult ajeya saab out there like that saab.ajeya saab is an environment friendly fella saab.He distributes plastic bags at railroad tracks saab.

#156 tahmed32

[ajeya: dont address posts to me. thanks.]

I apologize if my getting a hold of the scruff of your neck and kicking you repeatedly in the rear somehow appeared to you as "addressing posts" to you. The act was meant solely to provide enjoyment to Indians (read Hindus) on this board - your interest or lack of it was inconsequential.

I hope this remedies the misconception.

thanks.

Re: # 161
Please go to the link I gave you. It'll answer all of your question and more.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 166 masadi...its fine with me if u call me Hindu bigot,I have respect for all religions although I am Secular,but I am not pro taliban religious fanatic like you,masadi u need to grow up and get modran education,u talk like a 10 yr old kid,u r totally insane and need help.You are a guy who spend his childhood on mullahs lap and got only religious education at a madressa,I really feel sorry for you.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

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Anil writes "You are nothing but a hypocrite, who was thrown out of the U.S., as not school will hire you or give you tenure track. In this hope you rejected Univ. of Edinburgh. BTW, Ph.D.'s in British Univ take only three years, so 4th year must be to put you through rehabilitation or remedial program. Now you are angry sitting near or in a madrassa in Pakistan, and having to comtemplate moving to Somalia. "


Wow what a vivid imagination plagirized from that moron Okhal and Hamid's wet dreams. I was NEVER thrown out of the U.S. in fact I returned twice after I went back to the homeland, further I did not seek tenure track only a damn fool would after getting an MA. Third, why would I have to work at a madrassa when any university in Pakistan will gladly hire me except those whose (American) chancellor I told to go F himself and fourth, where does Somaila fit into the equation? you miserable sob.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 160masadi....MASADI SAYS...''address me as SIR from now on'''...''...I really feel sorry for masadi,this guy is a psycho case and needs psychologists...seems like he TALIBAN spokesperson.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

#162 your post is substance-less as usual...

Re: # 160

As much as 10% admitted in Ivy Leagues are from however you classified. Last year I had done some consulting work with a non profit organization (www.questbridge.org) in Silicon Valley, this group only seeks out the kids from this group country wide, and helps them through the entire process to get in top U.S. universities, colleges with full scholarship. 7% of all admissions at Stanford in 2008 were through this organization.

You have zero clue of how the world is changing around you, while you bury your self in 7th century and Mills.

Another thing. Demand that you put on others to address you as "Sir", shows that you crave to crawl back into elite class. Else you would ask everyone to address you as bhangi, and prove it what this bhangi can do and has.

You are nothing but a hypocrite, who was thrown out of the U.S., as not school will hire you or give you tenure track. In this hope you rejected Univ. of Edinburgh. BTW, Ph.D.'s in British Univ take only three years, so 4th year must be to put you through rehabilitation or remedial program. Now you are angry sitting near or in a madrassa in Pakistan, and having to comtemplate moving to Somalia.

Re: # 157

Which year are these figures from Riaz?

Riaz said:What ADB ICP did, instead, was use a basket of 800 different products and services used in various Asian nations to come up with its PPP numbers. And here is what it came up with:

Pakistan has the highest per capita income at HK$ 13,528 in South Asia. It reports India's per capita as HK $12,090, difference of over HK$1500.00 (about US $200)

#159 Anil what percent of the Princeton graduating class comes from the lower socioeconomic classes? And what percent of the US population is comprised of lower socioeconomic classes, one is the flip of the other and your goddamed exceptions don't prove the rule. If the top 1% didn't allow anyone from the bottom to serve them through making them go thru their institutions like Princeton their own survival would become a logical impossibility.

TNITC masadi

p.s address me as SIR from now on...

Masadi Mian:

"...Sotomayor graduated from Cardinal Spellman High School in the Bronx. She earned her A.B. from Princeton University, graduating summa cum laude in 1976.[9] Sotomayor obtained her J.D. from Yale Law School in 1979, where she was an editor of the Yale Law Journal. Sotomayor then served as an Assistant District Attorney under prominent New York County District Attorney Robert Morgenthau, prosecuting robberies, assaults, murders, police brutality, and child pornography cases. In 1984, she entered private practice, making partner at the commercial litigation firm of Pavia & Harcourt, where she specialized in intellectual property litigation..." (thanks Scout on UP)

What do you have to say to this, as the world goes by you, your 7th century and Mills?

Re: # 151
masadi,
You are indeed an equal opportunity offender and an extraordinary agent provocateur. You bring your own unique perspective to Chowk. I enjoy your commentary and your presence, just don't go too wild and crazy, and I'm sure they'll let you stick around.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 148

Let me try and explain to you what Big Mac index is. It's the price a beef burger sold by McDonald's that is used in coming up with purchasing power parity (PPP) comparison. Obviously, with very little demand for a beef burger in India, the low price of a beef burger would make Indian currency, gdp, income etc more inflated than reality.

What ADB ICP did, instead, was use a basket of 800 different products and services used in various Asian nations to come up with its PPP numbers. And here is what it came up with:

Pakistan has the highest per capita income at HK$ 13,528 in South Asia. It reports India's per capita as HK $12,090, difference of over HK$1500.00 (about US $200)

The "real" here refers to the actual purchasing power and living standard comparisons, not international exchange rates.

Check out complete list in Table H at http://www.adb.org/Documents/Reports/ICP-Purchasing-Power-Expenditures/Highlight s.pdf

As this ADB report explains, "The most celebrated example of a PPP is the “Big Mac Index� compiled and regularly published by The Economist magazine. The Big Mac Index is a PPP that is based solely on the price of a Big Mac in various countries—a commodity that is comparable in quality and available in most locations. Although it is a simple example of a PPP, in practice it is of little use for making international comparisons because it is not representative of all the goods and services included in GDP. More reliable measures of PPPs, such as those compiled as part of the 2005 ICP, are constructed using a large amount of data on the prices of a broad range of goods and services that make up GDP. In ICP Asia Pacific, the participating economies priced items from a list of around 800 household and nonhousehold products in 2005 and early 2006."

http://www.adb.org/Documents/Reports/ICP-Purchasing-Power-Expendi tures/Highl ights.pdf

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

ajeya: dont address posts to me. thanks.

Hamidm: That's SIR Masadi to you, you intellectual inferior!!

Re: # 151

chowk staff,

please do something about mad masadi - he is offending tahmed

#150 tahmed32

[In the face of all this, the India-Pakistan water dispute seems to be a like two men fighting on a boat for a drink of water as the boat is filling up with water and sinking. They would be better of salvaging the boat. Perhaps we will see greater realization of this as the global community gets involved and saves the two nations from their unthinking quarrels (as the World Bank did in 1963)]

Pakis have this desperate NEED to equate India and Pakistan. Indian military - same as Paki military. Indian progress - same as Paki progress. And so on...

The unfortunate fact is that this is not the reality. India is way, way ahead of Pakiland in all areas, and will continue to pull ahead in the foreseeable future. India and Pakistan are NOT like 2 men fighting on a boat. India holds all the cards here. India does not need to make an agreement with Pakistan. India is doing just fine. WE control the water. It is Pakistan tugging at our sleeves. Not the other way round. Many things have changed since 1963. India is much more powerful, and much less amenable to external pressure. Also, America and the West have lost much of their leverage vis-a-vis India, and more importantly, will continue to have less and less oil-related needs in the coming future. So the Paki-Saudi axis will be less and less relevant in the years to come.

To summarize:

India has a STRONGER military (one proof - Pakistan keeps losing)
India has MUCH better R&D (Pakistani mission to the moon - anybody?)
India has MUCH better educational institutions (GRE is a joke in India in post-graduate circles)
India has MUCH stronger industrial muscle (Mittal, Reliance, Tata and so one...)

The list is very long....

Sorry, Abdur-al-rahimi-bin-ghazi-ghaznavi-illaaaaa-ullaaaa-ukht-ghauri-i-tahmedi-bin-tu ghlaqi32. Those are the facts.

Majumdar writes "Riaz babu,

By almost every measure, Pakistan is better off than India.

Some of the sources you have quoted- wikipedia and " observed/reported by many foreign reporters" hardly qualify as very reliable indicators."


Majumdar sahib alumni WW is wasting his time and ours. Wellness indicators when we talk objectively reveal that we are both f'ckd, while psychological indicators would suggest, due to India's distraction potential in the current world order (and its use as flag bearer of capitalism's success by the US), that India is heads and shoulders above Pakistan, no question about that.

TNITC masadi

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anil sahib #137 In saying that global warming would tend to bring more rain, you point to an important aspect of global warming - the entire process far too complex for us to understand exactly what the end result will be. As for shipping in water from the Antartica - that was once proposed for Saudi Arabia as I recall (i.e. tow in an inceberg), but desalination would seem a more viable solution.

In any case, we dont know for sure what "climate change" will result in. Only yesterday there was news that a revised model predicts twice the amount of global change (i.e. a temperature rise of around 7 degrees F vs 3 degrees F as predicted till now). Last month there was news that, using a global satellite and more careful calculations, it is expected that instead of being uniform (as one would intuitively expect), the ocean's would rise to a higher level in the northern latitudes than in the south.

All we can be sure of is that the earth as we see it today has undergone massive (sometimes sudden) climate change in the past (at one time the entire surface of earth was covered by a thick mantle of ice, at another time there was no oxygen at all and the air was poisonous to life as we know it).

In the face of all this, the India-Pakistan water dispute seems to be a like two men fighting on a boat for a drink of water as the boat is filling up with water and sinking. They would be better of salvaging the boat. Perhaps we will see greater realization of this as the global community gets involved and saves the two nations from their unthinking quarrels (as the World Bank did in 1963).

Re #139
"The fact that India backed off from strikes against Pakistan after Mumbai amply showed the impotence of Indian military power".

Pakistani fauj ki Hindustani fauj ke saath barabari ki baatein sunkar kaan pak gaye hain. Ama, muaf bhi keejiye. 48,65,71,99 mein moonh ki khane key ba'ad bhi itni maghroori, itni masti? Ek haara hua pehalwan bhi doosre muqable ke ba'ad apni naqabiliyat qabool kar leta hai.
Shayad is ghuroor ki wajeh us nucleai dehshatgard Qadeer ka churaya hua aetmi bum ho. Waqt aane par shayad yeah bum bhi naheen phatega.

Riaz babu,

The UNDP HDR report places India higher on overall HDI than Pakistan, not just on PPP.

The Big Mac Index used by UNDP has been discredited.

Well, I am sure that any index which places India better off than Pak wud be similarly discredited in your eyes at least.

Regards

Riaz Katue...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1735912.stm
So, you have to create a web Page and put BS there ( with beduinistic logic) and India is militarily weaker than Pakistan!!!!...
Strange...with stronger military, Pakistan failed to capture Kashmir so far and lost 1/2 of it's territory....

Re: # 139
riaz katue...
oh really!!!
So, that is the reason, Pakistan is not committing on "No first use" of nuke with India?

Re: # 143
majumder...
I don't think, Indians tried to project, overall economic success. We always flaunt about Ambanis, Vinod Dhams etc...and that is part of indian culture for time immemorial ( with 5%-10% literates, India contributed most in science and technology in ancient age).....and whenever Indians talk about Indra Nooyi, Vinod Dham, A G Bose etc..., these Pakis comes up with all these railroad etc...UNDP report...
If you have read "Lokahita" (Rabindranath Tagore), you should remember..."If Kalidasa would have dedicated himself on writting books for the peasants of Ujjain, the peasants would have been little bit better off, but Sanskrit literarure would have been deprived of several gems..."

Re: # 143
I don't think you understand how the per capita PPP is calculated. The Big Mac Index used by UNDP has been discredited. You need to look at ABD ICP report that does a more thorough job and explains it well.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz babu,

By almost every measure, Pakistan is better off than India.

Some of the sources you have quoted- wikipedia and " observed/reported by many foreign reporters" hardly qualify as very reliable indicators.

I will quote UNDP's HDI report of 2008 since you have yourself quoted UNDP as a reliable source.

http://hdrstats.undp.org/2008/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_IN D.html

India- HDI index 0.609, Rank 132, GDP per capita PPP - 2489, GDP per capita rank 126

http://hdrstats.undp.org/2008/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_PAK.ht ml

Pakistan- HDI index 0.562, Rank 139, GDP per capita PPP - 2361, GDP per capita rank 130

Btw, this stats shud also be an eye opener for all those Hindoos who think that India is gazillions of times ahead of Pakistan (thanks Salimbhai)

Regards

Good for you, Riaz

Re: # 140
Anil, I don't take every Indian seriously. Only the ones who make any sense.

On the SL/LTTE issue, I do take both B. Raman and national sec adviser Narayanan seriously.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

I may not be knowledge. But do you honestly believe, intelligence chief will spill all the beans? It would be naive to assume. One of the retired high ranking director of RAW is a member of my extended family. He would not even talk other than saying in less than days notice he would be in Israel.

You probably trust their write ups more, while I try to see the trend, if there is any then I believe the trend. The same is true with Indian press, which gets emotional.

My advise take Indian input not very seriously.

Re: # 138
Anil, I don't think you are particularly knowledgeable about the subjects you like to talk about. So, let me try and help you to the extent possible.

"Where did B. Rama put it, can you put the link here, and who is he?"

B.Raman is a former RAW chief frequently quoted in the press. He runs a website on intelligence and strategy.
http://ramansterrorismanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/02/sri-lanka-indias- moment-of-truth.html

"in conventional war they can take over Pakistan in 10 days'

Again you display your ignorance in spades. In terms of ballistic missiles (with conventional warheads) inventory, heavy artillery, tanks and armor, the things most likely to be used in conventional ground war, Pakistan military strength is essentially equal to India's. Please read about the current conventional military balance here:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/01/india-pakistan-military-balance.html

The fact that India backed off from strikes against Pakistan after Mumbai amply showed the impotence of Indian military power.

"Regarding taking Pakistan seriously on economic front. I can assure you that Indians I have met they laugh."

Again, you and your friends know nothing about Pakistani economy. By almost every measure, whether it is real per capita income (ADB ICP report 2008), poverty (UNDP), hunger (World Hunger Index), sanitation (UNICEF), industrial production contribution to GDP (Wikipedia), overall infrastructure and average standard of living (as observed/reported by many foreign reporters), Pakistan is better off than India.

Please read http://southasiainvestor.blogspot.com if you are looking for reliable data and information on Pak vs Indian economy.






Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 136

Riaz:

"...What happened in Sri Lanka last week is India’s moment of truth, as B.Raman puts it..."

Where did B. Rama put it, can you put the link here, and who is he?

You may like to beieve that India takes Pakistan seriously, it may help your ego. India is an elephant that does not know its own underbelly to take it seriously. This generation of India in the city are very cocky, probably that is true in Pakistan too, to take anyone besides "moi" seriously.

When one talks to retired Indian generals, they are very easy to access, as they lead middle class life (yes you have produced a post on Gen. Aurora's loot). Increase in wealth becomes very visible Riaz sahib, because Generals do not make much or retire with much. I know three who live very ordinary life. Two have middle class home in Delhi, and one has a liquor store in San Mateo.

Indian generals will tell you, whether they are boastful - in that case hardly be serious - or whatever, that in conventional war they can take over Pakistan in 10 days, in nuclear war that Pakistan will have to start, but they will have the last say. Therefore, destruction of Pakistan is assured just as great harm to India is assured. It would be like cutting the nose to kill a fly sitting on the nose, then they laugh and say Pakistani generals did exactly that in East Pakistan.

Regarding taking Pakistan seriously on economic front. I can assure you that Indians I have met they laugh.

Cricket is the only thing Indians take Pakistan more seriously than Bangladesh.

They also believe that while Pakistan has good looking actors, they have the Bollywood. Therefore, Pakistanis have to come to India. Talk about cockiness, I have told you.

Polically, it is the same story. No one envies, Pakistan's polical system.

I had not meant to destroy your castle, but you are really building it in the air.

Re: # 131

Tahmed sahib:

"....Both countries need scarce water, and the only real solution is to work together and with the rest of the world to solve the problem of water shortages in the coming decades before it becomes a total calamity...."

I am with you Tahmed sahib this is the only way it is going to be solved. It is would be global problem. Shortage in one supply in the other (much like oil).

To solve it, I feel it should be made viable to bring fresh water from Antartica, and as global warming puts more energy (read more water in the atmosphere) there is bound to be more rain in some parts to complete the cycle, unless some phenomena keeps water perpetually in the atmosphere.

In case, water needs to be brought, and otherwise, it will no longer be free. A market instrument like "water rights" would probably emerge to allow nations to convert them into purchasing or selling water. I do not buy Riaz's alarmist approach.

The value of water right between India and Pakistan will be at the very least the spending by two nations on the war. This I said just to give an idea how "water rights" can be marketed.

Re: # 134
I think Indians do not take Bangladeshis as seriously as they take Pakistanis.

Indians keep raising the specter of Chinese threat, but the reality is that India has about 33 infantry divisions, of which Twenty-four are on Pakistan borders. India has three armored divisions, all three are positioned on Pakistan borders. India has all three of its mechanized divisions deployed near Pakistan borders.

What happened in Sri Lanka last week is India’s moment of truth, as B.Raman puts it. Sri Lanka has triumphed over LTTE terrorists in spite of India, not because of it. Pakistan, along with China, has clearly played a key role as Sri Lanka’s main arms supplier and trainer in ensuring LTTE’s defeat, and India is clearly not happy with how the events played out leading to Sri Lanka’s win. This new reality highlights the importance of Pakistan as a regional player in South Asia and upsets what India’s national security adviser called New Delhi’s “pre-eminent Position� in the region.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I will agree that the water issue is a serious one - but, like I said, hardly one-sided. Not just India and BD, but Pakistan as well need to work together and with the rest of the world on this - since the coming water shortage can only be solved that way.

RiazHaq: I read the article. It is true that Indian-BD relations have a number of irritants (water, BD immigrants in India, unresolved boundary disputes from 1947, and so on). But nothing, I think you will agree, of the magnitude of the Kashmir dispute. And on these irritants, I think you will agree that these are hardly one-sided issues.

The looting issue is I think more serious than I had thought (I just read #133). There does seem to have been a breakdown in Indian military discipline after the fall of Dhaka - this story reminded me of a former Indian military officer who fought in the 1971 war and told me many years ago how he drove back to India in a captured Pakistan Army jeep which he never returned to the Indian military as he obviously should have. But then..this is a dead issue, almost 40 years old.

Re: # 131

Here's an article I saw by a Bangldeshi woman:

Lt. General Jagjit Singh Aurora, the commander of the Indo-Bangla Joint Forces in 1971 has recently passed away. In this article I am going to share some comments with the readers regarding the late General’s financial impropriety following the Bangladesh war of independence that I learnt in the Indian Capital.

In 1990 I went to Delhi to attend the wedding of a Sikh friend. This friend is a relative of Aurora. The wedding reception took place at the famous Gymkhana Club and was attended by many dignitaries. If I am not mistaken, the Lt. Governor of Delhi and the then Union Home Minister Mufti Mohammed Saeed (it was the time of V P Singh) also attended briefly.

General Aurora, however, missed the reception, as he was taken ill. His daughter attended and my friend introduced me to her. She invited me to meet her famous father and said that ‘daddy’ would be home the next morning to receive and talk to me. Unfortunately, I could not take this invitation as the next day was my last full day in India and I was faced with two options, either to stay in Delhi and meet the General for breakfast and talk about 1971, or to go to Agra to see the Taj Mahal. I opted for the latter.

At the wedding reception, my friend also introduced me to General Jacob. Gen. Jacob was Aurora’s second-in-command in the Eastern Command in 1971 and as many people say, was probably the chief architect of the 1971 Indian invasion and war plan in the eastern theatre. Although the General knew a few more people at the reception than I did, he to some extent like me felt stranger in that gathering. For some unknown reasons, the General liked me a lot and spent the next couple of hours in my company. He also introduced me to few people that he knew at the party. Drinks were served. While I opted for a coke, the general settled for a small beer.

We kept on talking. It was mainly about 1971. The General was very passionate about the whole thing. He spoke about his role and experience during the entire conflict. He did not like General Osmani that much. He found it difficult to work with him. On the other hand, the General was full of praises for Zia and Khondhker (the deputy commander in chief of Bangladesh forces during the 1971 campaign and the first Air Force Chief). The General said that these two were professionals and brilliant officers and that he had really enjoyed working with them.

I asked General Jacob, did he not want to visit Bangladesh, the country that he helped to liberate? The General sounded very disappointed and hurt. In an emotionally choked voice, the General said. “How I can I go to Bangladesh when no one has ever invited me?

I was never invited to Bangladesh.� The General continued, “I have never taken anything from Bangladesh. There are many who took a lot. Someone brought me some bananas. I even paid for them. I have never taken a thing, even General Aurora …� The General stopped and did not complete his sentence. As it was a sensitive topic, I did not want to press the General what did he mean by ‘even General Aurora.� However, one does not need to be a genius to appreciate the meaning of General Jacob’s comments.

Later, the day I was leaving India I was talking to my friend’s father, a relative of General Aurora. He wanted to know why did the Indo-Bangla relationship turn sour? I apprised him of what I thought the main reasons, including Tin Bigha Corridor, Farakkha, Chakhma problems and even the lootings by the Indian forces following the occupation of Bangladesh by them.

My friend’s father said that even in India there were talks about lootings and appropriation of Bangladeshi properties and assets by the Indian forces and that the Indian government had also commissioned an investigation. He then said that there was wide perception that even General Aurora had received a lot from Bangladesh.

Although these comments by two close associates do not establish conclusively that General Aurora had actually received any shares of the booty personally, but it may lead at least one to question the propriety and integrity of the General. Sadly, the General is now dead and will not be able to answer these allegations and clear his name.

General Aurora might not have ordered his troops to go for high scale looting, and one may argue that this might have happened because of lack of discipline and supervision among individual members of Indian armed forces.

However, there is no evidence as to what the General did to stop his soldiers from looting. History will probably remember General Aurora not only as the military commander who successfully negotiated the surrender of the Pakistani forces in Bangladesh without much bloodshed and thus paved the way for an independent Bangladesh, but also as a failed commander who miserably failed to impose discipline and supervision in the conduct of his troops when they resorted to stealing the assets of the country they allegedly came to liberate. The failure to prevent this full scale looting actually planted the first seed of discontent in the hearts of the Bangladeshis.


Tuhin Reza
London

Source: http://www.bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2005-05-24&hidType=OPT&hi dRecord=45804
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 131
I think you should read the linked article to fully appreciate what's going on in India-BD relations.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq: I dont think there was a major plunder of BD assets after 1971. I would be surprised if there was, because from all indications the Indian army behaved like a disciplined force in the Bangladesh war (although it has behaved in a criminal manner in Kashmir). As for the water issues - that is what they are: issues. Both countries need scarce water, and the only real solution is to work together and with the rest of the world to solve the problem of water shortages in the coming decades before it becomes a total calamity. Simply accusing one another of "exploitation" on water sharing isnt going to help anyone. Same goes for pakistan-india water disputes, where there is genuine interest on both sides. And surely you cant blame india for "surrounding" Bangladesh - that is simply the way the political geography works.

Re: # 124
Beyond the initial plunder of BD assets and resources by India in 1970s, there are currently very serious border and water issues that threaten the viability of BD. And India treats BD complaints very arrogantly, doesn't even notify it of projects such as river-linking that could devastate BD. "India-locked" on three sides and India's "Blue Water" Navy in Bay of Bengal, BD is completely surrounded and at the mercy of Indians.

Source: http://www.southasianmedia.net/Magazine/Journal/bangladeshindia_tussels.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#128 Couldnt agree more. When thousands of Pakistanis have been killed, it is a betrayal of their memory - not to mention the betrayal of Pakistan at this critical time in its history - to treat as anything less than as traitors those who are trying directly or indirectly to make it more difficult for our troops to fight the enemy.

Re: # 127tahmed32..Its time for Pakistanis to reject those elements who are against military operation against Taliban,including comrade masadi on this forum.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Khyber: Today, in a Pakistani group meeting to see what we could do to help during Pakistan's crisis, we were told that Imran Khan was planning to make his annual fund collection to the US. The feeling was unanimous - Imran Khan had betrayed Pakistan at a time when its military was actively engaged in defending it from the taliban invaders, and as such he wasnt getting any chanda from us.

If that link won't work,here is the story....

Daily Times - Site Edition Tuesday, May 26, 2009

Taliban rob a child of his will to play

By Fawad Ali Shah

KARACHI: Mudassir Khan, aged nine, is playing with his cousins on a street in Sultanabad. Though his cousins seem to be enjoying each and every moment of the game, Mudassir’s face paints a different picture.

His movements lack the freedom visible in the other children. When asked why he is not enjoying the game, he murmurs, “I don’t want to play games.� Khan is one of the thousands of children forced to migrate to Karachi after the military operation was initiated in the area.

His father, Muzammal Khan, steps in to better explain Mudassir’s lack of interest in games. Taking the boy aside, he asks Mudassir to narrate his experiences of the Taliban but the child remains silent. “Once he was playing gulli danda, which was his favorite game, when a Talib slapped him and his friends,� reveals Muzzamil Khan, who used to run a medical store in Mingora.

“My son was not like this at all but the tormenting experiences of the past few months have scarred him deeply,� he adds, still trying to coerce the little boy to share his experiences. Mudassir’s eyes start to well up but casting an annoying look at his father, he manages to murmur, “He was very bad, very bad.�

“I was playing gulli danda when a man with a Kalashnikov and a stick in his hand came up to us. He slapped us because we were playing games of infidels,� he narrates, “The Talib said that infidels have created these games in order to deviate the attention of Muslim children and youth from jihad.� He adds that then the Talib forcefully took him to the mosque and since that day, he has never dared to play a game again.

However, the hatred for the Taliban that Mudassir now harbours was not always present. “They would teach me about religion and prayed five times a day,� he says. However, all that changed when the Taliban started beating up people.

He stated that his madrassah teacher once took his 13-year old schoolmate for jihad training. “Maulana sahib would give sermons on jihad, focusing on stories of the glorious past. That friend of mine wanted to be Muhammad Bin Qasim,� says the green-eyed Mudassir.

It may be noted here that after establishing themselves in the area, the Taliban are forcefully sending children to religious seminaries and mosques. Moreover, though the Taliban are against the modern education system and have destroyed many schools in the area, the son of Taliban spokesperson, Muslim Khan, is enrolled in the pharmacy department of the University of Peshawar, which is a co-education university. More interesting was the reply of Muslim Khan when this was pointed out, as he stated that “the study of medicine is allowed in Islam.�

“He is always nervous and jittery all the time,� Waqma, 28, Mudassir’s burqa-clad mother said, adding that the Mudassir’s face was red for quite some time after that slap.

When contacted for an expert’s opinion over the child’s ordeal, Psychologist Haleem Shah said that the child would not be able to recover any time soon. “If the situation is as the parents describe, it will take months for him to recover and possibly play again,� reckoned Shah.

As the children once again run towards the ground, Mudassir remains with his parents, softly whispering, “I don’t want to play.�
QAZI HUSSAIN,IMRAN KHAN AND OTHER IDIOTS DON'T SEE THIS CRUELTY.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Taliban rob a child of his will to play....

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

RiazHaq: I used to visit Bangladesh, and the only "Indian Influence" I saw was brahma cattle being smuggled (in open trucks!) from India and into Bangladesh. They had an independent military, and my father's friend who had joined the Bangladesh military after 1971 seemed to be perfectly independent of any influence other than (possibly) a bit of what hamidm would have approved. So what exactly are we talking about here?

Re: # 120
I think masadi has gone off the deep end.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Masadi #115 Long live President Obama!! Death to the Enemies of America!!

Re: # 119

mad masadi,

.... how old are you? ... seven? ten?

Rebuttbale is to intelligent people, not to hate filled, ignorant person.

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Anil #117, that is what I expected from you a sorry a$$ rebuttal that does not even approach the argument but used Ad Hominem. You are so messed up that even Einstein's brain transplanted into your sorry skull would cause it to fry up.

TNITC masadi

Masadi (116 and 115)

You need a brain transplant. It would do no good to get education, whether from Univ. of Edinburgh or from the buckle of bible belt college you chose. This choice should tell you something about the damage to your brain, as it tells most others.

Obama asks in his speech on memorial day ""Why in an age when so many have acted only in pursuit of narrowest self-interest have the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines of this generation volunteered all that they have on behalf of others," he said. "Why have they been willing to bear the heaviest burden?"

Allow me to answer the moron: Its a class thing stupid. Isn't that how the military incentives are designed to appeal to those that cannot afford college, those that would otherwise be working at Burger King or some low paying sales job or in the case of AAs end up in jail~ even if they decided to pursue 'narrow self interest' they wouldn't be able to even buy a car without a loan or get a loan for that matter. That is what military recruiters like Christian evangelicals carry around in their 'salvation bag', a shot at college and the American dream- narrow self interest and that is what traps those at the lowest rungs of the economic scale as gun fodder for America's barbaric wars....and that is my message to the US citizens and soldiers on this memorial day of US barbarism around the globe

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I agree with Asadi on this one. Every one at the star level should be dismissed and the rest should be retrained not in the US but in Pakistan.

#109 you ignorant moron, officers of the Pakistan Army don't micromanage the foot soldiers, they are incapable of doing so and when you disband the officers corps to restructure how officers are made, it means new leaders, real leaders from the rank and file not the corn flakes morons will emerge. Those that support this army in its current form are guilty of high treason...

TNITC masadi

Riaz,

Sorry about the last post. Didn't know that it was a reply to ajeya.

"I give a lot of credit to Bangladeshis for surviving the Indian plunder and hegemony for several decades."

Bangladeshis are grateful to you for your certificate.

Re: # 107

The fact that Bangladeshis flock to India (among other destinations) is testimony to what India has done to BD since its invasion in 1971. I give a lot of credit to Bangladeshis for surviving the Indian plunder and hegemony for several decades.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 105

mad masadi,

.... so how do you propose to run the army without the 'officer corps'? ....... anyone who has ever had a real job in a real organization can tell you that you need leaders, managers, grunts and peons to get the job done ...... it is not like teaching sociology at the bronx community college or chichawatni's ghulam rasool madrassa .........

.... by the way, what are you doing to defeat this army - are you providing material support to the taliban or are you just throwing your usual impotent tantrums? ......... in either case, you are guilty of high treason .........

This is to inform you all that our friend Tahir has been illegally banned from Chowk again and his ilog has been removed. Chowk staff is going full speed ahead with their censorship agenda. In case you don't receive replies from me post this posting, know that they have illegally detained me as well

TNITC masadi

#103 RiazHaq

[Talking about Thulakkan, here's what I read recently about how many Indian Muslims feel about India...]

madrassa Alumnus,

Given all of this, why do you muslims keep entering India illegally by the thousands? Also, why are you so concerned about India, India's caste system, India's this, India's that - doesn't this take time away from writing important erudite-sounding articles - eh?

Why don't you stick to the stuff that personally affects you and utilize the time to contribute your literary skills for future generations of Pakis and other intellectuals?

RiazHaq
You should write to that guy and find out what's insulting about being called Turkic.

Alumni WW writes "Your suggestion that Pak army be disbanded is akin to prescribing a very strong medicine that will almost certainly kill the patient, that is Pakistan as a national entity"

Alumni, this is a reworded form of the same age old "Pakistan khatray mei hai" argument that the army uses. Pakistan as an 'national entity' ceased to exist when this army took over, you are lost in time, which Pakistan are you talking about the one that became the whore of the Americans or the one in which the 'national' has a voice?

Now when I talk about disbanding the "officers corps" of the military, I am not talking about putting a million people out of jobs. I am talking about restructuring the institution and no reform can fix the problems that exist at the top. Further, those jobs will be created when the state takes over the industry that the military has usurped and redistributes the land that its generals have incorporated. These changes happen concomitantly. You are seeing one side of the fix not the other. There is no need for a million strong military to be maintained in Pakistan.

Tahir sahib you cannot 'reform' an institution that has a diseased structure, just like you cannot put a band aid to control arterial bleeding. It needs to be dismanteld, and restructured, period. There is no other solution, or it will keep producing Zia ul Fcuqs and Musharraf ul Scuqs, I guarantee you that.

TNITC masadi

peon of the west writes "masadi,

in all seriousness you know jack shit about the life of a common man in Pakistan"

You should restrict yourself to commenting on things you know about, and that would be near nothing. I know quite a bit about the life of the common man/woman in Pakistan due to first hand observation and communication and not from a distance if my life was as detached from theirs as you claim then I'd be acting like your type of fools, the hamids and tahmeds and not have genuine empathy. Do not try to use my arguments against me your rich fart.

TNITC masadi

Talking about Thulakkan, here's what I read recently about how many Indian Muslims feel about India:

The Hindu ruling class arrived at a consensus that Indian Muslims are a threat for the national integrity and pushed us out of the mainstream and we were economically crippled. No one can deny that more than 80% of India's Muslim population lives in ghettos and slums.

In the past 60 years, the so called Muslim leaders have colluded with Congress and have screwedup the entire Muslim population with tags like “appeasement, vote bank, minority commission, Sachar committee, Haj subsidy, Shariah, triple talaq, polygamy, madrassa, mullah, Babri masjid, alienation, descrimination, suppression, Pakistani agent and TERRORIST�.

We get titles like: Thulukkan, Musla, kattus, Babur ke aulad, Hum paanch hamaare pachchees, thulukkane vettu thulukkachiye kattu, Desh drohi etc.

They will keep on repeating the names of a handful of Muslim poster boys, emerged in the past 60 years. Dr.Abdul Kalam, is considered as the best President because he drew a lakshman rekha around him and NEVER allowed any Muslim to cross that. He NEVER uttered a single word till date on Gujarat massacre and will never. He is proud to be called as Kalam Iyer, participate in Deepawali festival but will stay away from Muslim festivals.

Source: http://www.karuthu.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3783&PID=88289
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq
As I understand, Thulukkan means Turkic. I don't know if that's an insult.

Talking about food and bigotry, there was recently a lawsuit filed by Indian Muslim cooks working for a Tamil veggie restaurant "Vaigai" in Silicon Valley.

According to the plaintiffs, restaurant personnel regularly used ethnic slurs such as "Thulakkan," a pejorative term for Muslims in Sri Lankan Tamil dialect, to harass the two Muslim cooks. Also according to the complaint, restaurant staff were encouraged to call the plaintiffs by names such as "Rajan" or "Nagraj" under the pretext of not wanting to upset customers who might stop patronizing the restaurant if they heard the men referred to by their Muslim names.

The complaint also states that the plaintiffs were forced to participate in a religious ceremony despite telling the owners it was against their Islamic beliefs. The complaint alleges that the restaurant owners insisted on their participation and proceeded to smear a powder on their foreheads, making the religious marking known as a "tilak."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 97

dost-mittar ji,

...... you don't have to apologize for the strange behaviour of your coreligionists - it takes a very special (dheet) kind of middle-aged person to overcome the fear of allah mian or ganeshji .... all religions are based on fear - fear of death, fear of the unknown, fear of losing your camel ......... and it would be fine if people simply stopped eating meat or started banging their head on the floor five times a day ...... the trouble starts when they start beheading people for eating beef biryani or ignoring the wailing mullah's call to debasement ..........

shankar: if only all hindus were as "strange" as you. trouble is - the vast majority are plain old stupid, pompous, lowlife with a chip on their shoulder about hinduism. at least on chowk.

hamid,

my wife and I are brahmins ...there is nothing better than a juicy fillet Mignon on the barbie. Used to eat beef at home as a kid. No hindu priest dared to put a fatwa on us ; or knew the first thing about how to "excommunicate" us from the "caste" of my birth.
Yeah, we are strange people

hamidm#96:

That is a problem but not as common as it used to be. My mother never allowed anyone to use even her kitchen for cooking meat but my wife is a much bigger carnivore than I am.

But I also find that as hindoos approach middle age, they stop/reduce eating meat; they say it is because of medical advice but I suspect that the fear of Ganeshji may also have something to do with it.

Re: # 95

dost-mittar ji,

...... you hindoos are strange people ........ saturday night we had three horrible hindoo couples over for dinner and whereas the men dug into the lamb biryani and chicken tikka like a bunch of savage talibans, the women were strict vegetarians .... what's up with that? ......

hamidm:

"i would be okay with that, but i like meat too much ......... "

How about reverting to the religion of the great-great-great grandpa rajupt Ram Chandar, an obedient husband like you who foolishly listened to the Mrs. to chase a deer for fresh meat and came back to find that the Mrs. had been kidnapped by a brahmin worshipper of Shiva?

I have already outstayed my time here ... Khuda Hafiz for now

tahmed ... the 'land' I live on belonged to no one ... it was 'terras nullis'.

aborigines have there country still ... the have rights over 80 odd percent of the land in australia ... where some live in their 'traditional' ways ... and when they get ill from diseases etc they blame the 'invaders' for not making healthcare accessable ... and when the healthcare is accessable it is seen as an 'intrusion' on aboriginal customs etc .... ad infinitum!

the land in Pakistan is where 'my people' have lived for thousands of years ... there were not invaders (but historically everyone is an invader at some stage ... from africa I believe)

as for kashmir ... it will still be kashmiris living in it be it (administratively) a part of pakistan, india or independent ... this is an issue fuelled by the army to retain its support amongst the masses ... nothing more and nothing less

Saint Cheema Sahib (Hallowed Be Thy Name): I understand you plan to hand back the land you are illegally squatting on back to the australian aborigines. And apologize to them. And then you plan to return to Pakistan and return the land your invader ancestors took from the poor madrasis, now smoldering in madras.

You are an example of Peace for the rest of us.

Re: # 90

besides in any of the examples you quoted, I don't see a single one where entire populations were radicalised on the subject ... that is simply a path of self-destruction

we do't see the spainards blowing themselves up in Britain to make a point about Gibralter! ... things are way out of hand in pakistan though

klashnikov culture has been prevelant for a good twenty odd years now ... and it is brandished around kashmir or no kashmir relenlessly ... you would be hard pressed to find similar examples elsewhere (unless we are comparing ourselves to african tribals now)

Re: # 89

that's enough on the subject from me for now ... I am sure it will keep things going here for a bit!

I am off to bed

Re: # 87

their 'demands' have been fueled by us (and the army) ... once that is out of the way, those 'demands' will disappear too

same applies to palestine/israel situation ... there is nothing 'legitimate' about the kashmir cause ... it is simply created and aggarvated by us ... that's what I am saying

Re: # 86

cheema sahib,

...........on this memorial day, when we are honoring the brave men and women who gave their lives to defend our freedom, i draw a distinction between crazy islamic fundamentalism and good old nationalism .....

pakistan zindabad!

Re: # 85

cheema sahib,

.... it is not for you or i to give up kashmir - it is for the kashmiris to decide and it is our moral obligation to support their legitimate demands ...... nation states do not give up legitimate territorial claims just because they can't do anything about it ...... even a third rate power like uk launched an aramada to defend ten thousand sheep on a rock in the south atalantic ..... the japaneses are still sticking to their claim on sakahalin island and the chinese never gave up on hongkong, macau or taiwan ......

.... i agree that we are not in a position to do anything about kashmir at present, but who knows what the future might bring ...... nobody is advocating a 'hot' war, but you cannot back down on principles just because it is convenient .... if we give up on kashmir, we might as well cede the rest of the country to the horrible hindoos and revert to the religion of grandapa gopinath ........... i would be okay with that, but i like meat too much .........

Re: # 85

... besides, we can't condemn the excesses of islam/muslims and condone the same under different pretences ... that would be hypocritical

I am exploring this issue BEYOND the irreversibility of the act of circumcision

Re: # 82; hamidm sahib

kashmir will be the end of Pakistan and still WON'T be Pakistan! ... we need to move on

it was a wrong strategy that ended up us radicalising our own population ... bugger kashmir!! ... I am all for the LOC to become an international border!

once that occurs (officially), those kashmiris in India with an itch for 'freedom' will settle down like 'moot di jhagh'!

hamidm sahib: you think we could convert chak shahzad into an IDP camp?

cheema sahib: So what you meant was that we should disband the army AFTER they have "mopped the mess"? For a minute you had me worried.

Re: # 79

cheema sahib,

...... i have to disagree with you here ..... as long as the army sticks to what it is paid to do and does not interfere in politics, it deserves our support ........ in an ideal world, where pigs fly and masadi makes sense, nobody needs an army - not even the south koreans ......... but in the real world where you have horrible hindoos occupying part of your country and crazy taliban running wild in the northwest, the army is a necessary evil ......... i agree that the army needs to shut down its land development and cereal making businesses and focus on liberating swat and kashmir ........... once that is done, we can think about disbanding it ........

pak fauj zindabad!

Re: # 80; tahmed sahib

these tally-tubbies are their own creation in the first place ... had there been no army (to the level it was allowed to go to), there won't have been the taliban

now they ARE needed to mop up the mess ... and ONLY to mop up the mess and NOT for any GRAND purpose that is often ascribed to them by our janta

cheema sahib: you are right. we should disband the military and shower flower petals on the taliban as they burn girls schools. i always knew you could see beyond what mere mortals can see.

I agree with masadi and madani sahib here ... de-militarising (and goes without saying 'de-nuclearising') Pakistan would be the ideal scenario ... we don't have any external threats least of all from India

these 'hypes' about existential threats from India are exactly what keeps the army in business ... and forces the common man to say silly things like "pak fauj ko salam" and the like ... it is (and has been) a despicable institution in Pakistani history

Re: # 56
Asadi sahib,

Get a grip over yourself. One reforms an institution, not dismantles it entirely.

These men from the KKK need to be held accountable. The politicians and the Khaki Klan's corrupt men will be the first ones to be butchered by the roadside if the Tall Ebans appear in the plains.

It is THIS that they're afraid of. It is THIS that Mrika is afraid of; their agents will be hard to replace.

Re: # 54

Major sahib, get off Chowq, the heat will burn you. You have no clue how sick and tired the nation is of the KKK.

Re: # 75 Army facing india is farce. There all smuggling going under supervision. Recently air marshall agrees with Masadi incidently. he said we were never attacked by india they took action after our attacks. So if we declare peace on India no army is needed. Army wants war with india policy , without that what is reason for armed forces in such numbers. Also india does not want to capture part for fear of muslims resitaance in India.
Army is needed for kashmir liberation. But situation is getting murkey as they are saying it must be solved peacefully. Then again we do not need army. People from top to bottom do not want army as they are cutting their strength by denying money to them ( no body pays real tax).
My only problem is weak side peace intentions have no value.
It is tough situation.
Masadi is going at source of problems of pakistan and to divert attention people will start mud throwing. Pakistan does not need democracy but needs people democarcy like china with muslim religious undercurrent.

Re: # 63
Masadi,
Your suggestion that Pak army be disbanded is akin to prescribing a very strong medicine that will almost certainly kill the patient, that is Pakistan as a national entity.

I personally believe strong but reformed Pakistani army is needed to deal with real external and internal threats the nation faces today. In addition to a vicious armed insurgency by a committed but misguided band of Taliban in along the Western borders, India has about 33 infantry divisions, of which Twenty-four are on Pakistan borders. India has three armored divisions, all three are positioned on Pakistan borders. India has all three of its mechanized divisions deployed near Pakistan borders.

But, just for the sake of argument, let's assume that the threats from India and Taliban are not real. Even then, don't you think having a million unemployed armed and trained soldiers will cause a lot of damage in Pakistan and the region?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 73

masadi,

in all seriousness you know jack shit about the life of a common man in Pakistan

same is true for majority of Pakistani interactors on this site

#72, I have more ideas about the poor than you'll ever have your __________. You adopted this name because of my exposure of peons of the west on this site, that by itself tell us my influence on the house slaves....

TNITC masadi

Re: # 69

masadi said

peons of the West like you can never understand self worth or self respect

----------------------------------

oye yaar masadi saab meiN haath joRta hooN meri jaan chhoR do saab :(

meiN ghareeb aadmi hooN saab, far more ghareeb that you saab :(

hence you donot speak for the ghareeb in Pakistan because you have no idea saab

Masadi: kidhar bhaag gya? come back you coward!

Prof. Masadi: which school in the US is it again from which you dropped out?

#68 peons of the West like you can never understand self worth or self respect, depart from me you miserable satan....

TNITC masadi

Prof. Masadi #67 I understand they offered to make you Principal of the Sorbonne as well. Except that your french was too fluent even for the french to understand.

#66 Yes I was intellectually too superior for an American community college that is why the univ of Edinburgh offered me one of 4 full scholarships they give WW (world wide) for their Phd program.

TNITC masadi

masadi: you couldnt get admission into the community college? was it because you were considered intellectually too superior?

#64 hamid, first of all you need to address me as SIR since I am your intellectual superior, second, I never attended community college, third it is not an intelligent recommendation to cut off your leg because your toe is bleeding, that is precisely what is going on in Swat. Over a million people displaced, God knows the livelihood of millions more lost for 2000 thugs, is that your solution to the problem?

TNITC masadi

Re: # 63

masadi,

.... let me remind you that all that wonderful american community college education was wasted on you ...........

........ having said that, what the heck do you propose we do with these seventh century barbarians who behead barbers, dig up people from their graves to hang them and chop up female singers after making them dance through the streets? .......... i know that god-crazed folks like urstrly get off on stuff like this, but you claim to be some kind of communist ..... do you see this as part of the class war against the evil elite?

#57 Alumni WW, that is where you and I have serious disagreement. The only institution that is "working" is insuring that no other institution works. The reason for the corruption and stunted growth of civilian institutions is becuase a non democratic, both intrinsically and extrinsically, set up institution has been dominating its affairs and doing the bidding of outsiders. Reform wont cut it, the entire military needs to be disbanded in the officers corps and rebuilt, otherwise it will keep spitting up dictators. Those that want to keep the army as is are Pakistan's worst enemies and sellouts to the colonials....

TNITC msadi

incidentally, urstryl is right about the mindset around wich the armed forces of Pakistan, and also its civil service, have been cultivated. to them the ordinary citizens of the nation are sub-human at best. such institution cannot be effectively reformed except by first cutting them down to size so that the future members learn to exist within their skin.

Re: # 57 riaz sahib,
for all the money and resources it robs Pakistan of, the armed forces of Pakistan work only to the extent of further enriching its elite (lowly jawans are cannon fodder; they do not count).

Re: # 59

There is no bughz-e mawiah; the civilians may be as corrupt but they don't have as many guns. The terrorists of Napak fouj are deadly and would go as far as rape, pillage, and genocide if they will have to. The genocide of East Pakistan is a shameful example of to what extent they will go. The current genocide is another where napak fouj has violated every international convention that there is on crimes against humanity. 2.5 million pakistanis are refugees within their own country. This equals the refugees that have come from Afghanistan.

Re: # 58

Can you honestly say that the key players in Pakistan's other institutions such as the legislature and the judiciary are less corrupt and more concerned about Pakistan's national interest than the military?

If you answers is yes, then I must say that you are a glowing example of bughz-e-Muawia rather than Hubb-e-Ali. It makes you just another one of dime-a-dozen hypocritical armchair critics enjoying the comforts of the West and you really don't give a hoot about the country or its people.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 57

This piece of propaganda is the root cause of all evil (burai ji jaRR) in Pakistan.

"It is the only institution in Pakistan that is working,...."

The truth of the matter is that Fouj is THE institution in pakistan that is not working. It has not worked from the day one after August 14, 1947. The reason is in its making. This institution was established by East India Company as a mercenary enforcers to kill and torture Bengali peasants and occupy their land. Over 200 years of conditioning and brainwashing that the "local people" are inferior, stupid, and malignant and their life has no meaning exhibits itself every cornerstone of our state history. Look! if dsicipline and merit is the yardstick by which you measure the effectiveness of an organization then a mafia is even more disciplined and meritocrate than our fouj. If you want to rise in ranks in a mafia you have to be disciplined and show yourself worthy of your salt.

Re: # 56

I think it's irrational and dangerous to even think of dismantling Pak army as an institution for the sins of a few of its members.

It is the only institution in Pakistan that is working, especially when compared with corrupt, feudal political institutions (that constitute Pakistan's executive legislature) and the Pakistani judiciary ranked by TI as among the most corrupt institution in the nation and the world.

People who push this idea of disbanding Pak army are naively aiding and abetting the many enemies of Pakistan, within and without.

The Pak army should be reformed rather than dismantled, if Pakistan is to survive now and thrive in the future as an independent, democratic nation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#54, it is not about individuals that 'usurp', it is about an institution that produces usurpers at the top and therefore needs to be dismantled. The people of Pakistan on the other hand have nothing to do with how their state institutions has become perverted, the Pakistan Army has more to do with that.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 54

Of course it is fare and just to condemn whole army of haramkhors. Taking money to destroy your own country is not the only crime you have committed, but everything which is wrong today in Pakistan is because of you haramkhor fouj including lost East Pakistan. The fact remains that you took 1.5 billion dollars to kill the children of your fellow citizens - in other words every piece of bread you are feeding your own children are drenched in the blood of your neighbors. I don't understand why you have to be so guilty conscious of your actions; price was right, wasn't it.

#53 Posted by Maj(r)Azhar
Re#38
Khyber, this article was neither aimed at defending self serving dictators(it is not possible to defend the indefensible)nor eulogizing Asif Zardari. It was an effort to give the devil his due. Condemning all army personnel for the wrongs done by usurpers is not fair. It is like holding citizens of a country responsible for what politicians do.

Imran hamara sher hey baaqi her pher hey.....

hamid writes "what is preventing the government from declaring the taliban and their supporters guilty of treason and lining up folks like imran khan, qazi hussain, khawaja saad rafiq, hamid gul and maulana fazloo in front of a firing squad ? ."

Just because IK understand the US game (and reads masadi) does not mean he should be put in front of a firing squad. Fortunately for all its BS, the government of Pakistan has not stooped down to the level of Chowk Staff.....

TNITC masadi

Re: #
Watching public opinion in Pakistan is the key to success for all parties involved in bringing peace and stability to Pakistan. With Taliban's recent well-publicized excesses in Swat, Pakistan public opinion has begun to turn against the Taliban. But public opinion is fickle and it can change again. While it is understandable that there will be refugees who must be well cared for, the Pakistani public opinion will shift against Pakistani government if the military is seen as displacing or killing large numbers of innocent civilians caught in the battle, or the US continues its drone attacks that end up killing innocent civilians. There is a lot of sensitivity required during the counterinsurgency operations.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

hamid writes "masadi mian,

exactly! ..... it is not the army's job to provide " health care and education and food for the over 40% food deprived " ...."

Hamid sahib, heed my sincere advice, get a goddamned education. When military affairs predominate all governmental decisions and indeed the government is controlled by the military then those missiles worth tens of millions and the leeches and retired generals who profit off the poverty of the people get to have their say where the money gets spent and what national priorities are. You talk like a damn ignoramus which makes me seriously doubt the claims of some here that you know whats going on in Pakistan. All you 'know' is your fact less hatred of Islam because somehow it interferes with your boozing.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 48
Droopy has much more important things to do ...like working on cutting the retail price of gasoline.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

........what is preventing the government from declaring the taliban and their supporters guilty of treason and lining up folks like imran khan, qazi hussain, khawaja saad rafiq, hamid gul and maulana fazloo in front of a firing squad ? ...... it would be nice to see pictures of their dead bodies up like that sri lankan trouble maker ..........

....... where is the droopy eyed cj when you need him ?

There are many political parties today that are shedding tears over the military operation against the Taliban, despite a realisation across Pakistan that the Taliban are our enemies and must be destroyed, given that all other options have failed. But then it should not be so surprising given the history of some of these parties, which were propped up by the regime of General Zia-ul Haq, and were at the forefront of sowing the seeds of the extremism and terrorism we see today. Their hypocrisy and lies should be challenged by civil society and the media so that they may not mislead the nation.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 45

Amen to that !!!

Shoaib Mansoor can write the lyrics & Junaid Jamshed can come out of his retirement & sing AGAIN (no coke deal involved this time) & may be we can have a remix version of it as well sounding like a eurotrash music!!!

& who knows a punjabi version may follow ... sung by Naseebo Lal !!!

Re: # 36
We ought to create an anthem out of such realities!

I volunteer to compose the melody.

Re: # 43; banjara

I know what you are saying ... and that's why it is important that the IDPs are treated with sensitivity ... but the socalled 'status quo' ,as it was, was equally unacceptable

problem is these bleeding hearts here are not saying these things because they care for those affected ...they simply do that to nurse their bruised egos ... kick in the teeth if you will ... very common 'victim' mentality rife amongst the members of the Ummah in general, and Pakistanis in particular

now that the army is 'engaged' as it were, they simply cannot go back to their patronage of these elements ... they are trapped ... and that is not all bad for Pakistan's future ... give it some time before we see the positive side of it

Re: # 42 cheema sahib,
support for action against taliban is not so much the contentious issue; rather the strategy that the army is using which is causing massive destruction and an unparalleled humanitarian crisis in the nwfp. this may redound to Pakistan's disadvantage, and ought to be a matter of grave concern for anyone who cares for the future of Pakistan. of course, i understand that u do.

i am not too sure about the asadite solution working in the Pakistani context; it is a very different nation. but i do have a feeling that if Pakistan somehow manages to get through this crisis in one piece, it would have made it over the hump in turning things around. let us wait and see.

for once the general opinion in Pakistan seems to be anti-taliban ... and that is important ... the rellies who 'werent sure' or didn't want to 'fight our own' seem to think differently now

this is 'political islam' under scrutiny (at a subconscious level) in my opinion and is a very positive development ... and this ideology is prevelant amongst far more than the '2000' conveniently mentioned by some to underplay its significance

goes without saying that the "asadite" solution is the only way

the taliban apologists can rant or rave all they like ... the writing is on the wall ... they better start looking beyond their bruised egos if they are actually as sincere about the future of Pakistan as they claim to be

and that goes for people like leadenwinter too ... army is meant to follow orders of the elected representatives of the country ... and at least at present they are doing so ... and they have my support (and every sane person in Pakistan)

Re: # 40

masadi mian,

exactly! ..... it is not the army's job to provide " health care and education and food for the over 40% food deprived " ...... your elected civilian government is supposed to do all that ....... the army is supposed to kill miscreants, terrorists, mullahs, al-qaeda, taliban, wahabis, horrible hindoos and other enemies of the state ............ let them do their job and ask zardari to do his .......

#39 Hamid you are misguided as usual. What kind of salary earning is it when going after 2000 thugs you displace over a million and cause a human catastrophe? When instead of health care and education and food for the over 40% food deprived you use jets and rockets worth tens of millions against ak-47 brandishing thugs and when you play the American war script for propaganda purposes as the Pakistan Army is. Don't let your goddamned hatred blind you to the crimes thugs bigger than the Talibaboons.

And get a goddmaned education,

TNITC masadi

Re: # 36

urstruly,

.... i am not a big fan of the army and i think they have no business making breakfast cereal and running banks, but i think they are finally earning their salaries by killing the vermin that has infested the country ...... let's hope they finish the job and dispatch all mullahs, bearded and unbearded, to allah mian's big jirga in the sky ..........

pak fauj zindabad !

Re: # 36 Urstruly ..Well said,Maj.Azhar ignores that In Pakistan the military has been part of the problem because it has been encouraging the monopoly of a handful of politicians in the country, perpetuating a troubled system and never encouraging its replacement with a better one. power hungry Generals used the army as an instrument for grabbing political power and hijacked Pakistan. Pakistani youth are jobless because all institutions are either headed or controlled by the Army generals or Pakistani elite Bourgeois class.. The country suffered a great loss in 1971 when its own Army surrendered in shame after committing one of the worst human right crimes in history and perpetrating the holocaust of three million people who were the citizens of Pakistan.Pakistan army being ranked as the seventh biggest army in the world has not conquered a single inch in fact it has only brought embarrassment to the nation in the battle fields of Kargil and Dhaka.The military in Pakistan is infamous for a large number of brutalities in the past including the murdering of Z A BHUTTO, the slaughtering of a large multitude of Bangladeshis, in fact, the military regime has never helped the process of nation-building in Pakistan; rather, it has thwarted every relevant effort. Army have biggest share in Pakistan’s stock exchange, operate commercial bank, airline, steel, cement, telecom, petroleum and energy, education, sports, health care and even grocery shops chains and bakeries.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

#20 & #25

LOL

Like the article...."malign the maligned"....HAHAHA Zardari is such as ASS

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#34 The Bhutto family is from Ludhiana..

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#30 flagged? La haula bila quvva!

Flagged :)

Its not as though I'm telling lies..

He was "in fact" indicted and convicted .. ergo... hes a criminal.

Its not that complicated.. Oh but I forgot .. The kind of person who would flag my last comment .. would invariably be kind of person who manages to sell their faculties and common sense along with their integrity.

Yet more fruits of democracy.. Enjoy

The competance and proceedings of Courts and judicial bodies across the World (including Pakistan) evidence the fact that Zardrai is a known and proven criminal.

There isnt much room for doubt.

We know hes a criminal and that he'll sell anything .. including the (ours not his) country. Thats why hes in power.. the right man for the job.

Enjoy your democracy.

Pakistani people have to decide what kind of polity they want. If they have opted for democracy then they will have to play by the rules. Zardari has fought against dictatorship, is a recognised leader in his party and legitimately elected President. If he is working within the norms, the Pakistani people should give him his full term, if he is a failure do not elect him next time.

As far as India is concerned, Zardari is making the right overtures and he appears to be a person with whom it can do business.

Corrupt civilian politicians abound in all democracies, it is when the uniformed soldier decides to take over the reins, it is disaster for the country because absolute power corrupts absolutely as has already been seen in Pakistan.

Anyone who mistakes the woods for the forest deserves everything he or she gets, and then some! Is Zardari the only villain? He's been out of jail for only the last two years or so, and before that for about 2-3 years when BB was PM (I don't know if BB was married during her first term), when he could have indirectly exercised some power in the government. Could he have done all this to Pakistan in such a short span? What about those before him? If Pakistan can be run to the ground in so little time and by one man, then Pakis do not deserve to be a free nation in the first place.

such leaders are found in historical times when counries are about to be disintegrated or destroyed like in later mughal times (1707-48) , later Abbasid times , China (1911-49) .

finally every one gets so disgusted that the old order is destroyed.the same is the story of pakistan.
Agha Amin

some people on this forum spares no opportunity to bash Zardari.

Re: # 21ZEENA...KAHSKUL is Pakistani leader's national symbol,he is not the only one, that'' KAHSKUL'' BEEN floating around the globe for the last 62 years, so he is not the only one.

Re: # 23

Yet you have the time and audacity to respond, interesting.

Re: # 20

paisay dekay yaa playing his gay porn star role?

I'm free! This article is written by a pma graduate and deserves to be read as such. It is fit for students that have recently passed class two (grade two) and are well qualified for grade 3.

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

testing

Dear writer
Can't agree more with you on this S** Zardari who is just a shame for all Pakistanis. I used to admire BB, but, just because of this B***** zardari I started hating bb.

Zardari is a beggar and that runs in his genes. All he does is to go to different countries with a KAHSKUL in his hands and starts begging. This pathetic character has caused nothing, but, embarressement for our nation.

Time to go, zardari.
Go zardari go.....

Azhar Sahib I heard from some people in Lyari that Zardari Saab nay apni jawani mein marwai thi, is this true?

great analysis for an arse h like zardri...

Re: # 15

Malik Rashid Sahib

"We know that Zardari was jailed for a few years"

There is a big difference in 11 years and few years, please correct your records.

Re: # 16
err... don't u think you had better worry about the problems in india. pakistanis would like to solve our own problems. thanks for ur help; but no thanks.

Re: # 11 Posted by KHYBER on May 20, 2009 1:35:06 am

It seems to me these days pakis may have finally realized that no one in the world like Pakis and the way they have handled themselves inside and outside puristan. Punjoos are the biggest contributors of this negative international image. This ethnic group, whether they are part of pml-n, pml-q, TI or JI have almost always promoted their ethnic brand of politics. This kind of politics is not sustainable in the 21st. century. Pakis must prepare themselves for the worst that is yet to come. Paindoostan can not survive such a political thought. Just look at your local “halaal meat� market run by a paki, and you will easily figure out the problem faced by a paki mind.

We are told that Zardari has amassed wealth by corruption.
We know that Zardari was jailed for a few years by the Military government.
After becoming President, Mr. Zardari offered a congenial and peaceful posture towards India. His government had announced a welfare/assistance program named after his late wife. His government, besides being faced with the insurgency problem, does not hold sway in matters of governance, it appears. A government that does not represent Punjab and military could be easily branded ineffective.
History has seen un-expected heroes and villains. Achilles wanted to avoid war but he became a legendary war hero.

Re: # 13,
"Rotten egg"!
Who? :o

Re: # 12...What I am trying to say is that MAJ.AZHAR should write a fair article and should have mentioned other villains of Pakistani politics too , I think it was not fair to just single out one rotten egg and ignore others.

Re: # 11

Nobody denies what Ameer ul Momaineen or Mushy did or what we are reaping owing to all those misdoings. But the article speaks of various (mis)deeds of sitting Mr. President, who by the way has some serious work at hand as far as his public and international image and rating is concerned.

Give the devil his due share ;)

Who killed Benazir..is a different topic and I am not going to open can of worms,lets face reality,if Zardari is a villain then other Pakistani politicians are not Angel either,the fact is they are all VILLAIN,corrupt and selfish but the real VILLAINS are Generals of Pakistani army who never won a war but always broke their constitutional promise and messed up the country.Zia was the one who started Pakistan's downfall. Zia was founder of drugs and arms culture in Pakistan .Zia was the dictator who damaged Pakistan most. Mushy boy played double game with Americans and did not crush Taliban and nation knows about two other villains of Pak army too.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re # 6,9

"He has done with Bhutto's principles precisely what he did with Bhutto's daughter."

Now he is doing exactly the same with the entire nation.

Re: # 6
"I am Bhuttos's son in law, not of any 'natho khera'."

He has done with Bhutto's principles precisely what he did with Bhutto's daughter.

Re: # 6
"The country of Benazir Bhutto's children deserves mercy in a ruthless society."

It definitely isn't very polite of you Khyber to comment on Sheikhs' and Queen's lands like that!

Re: # 6
Khyber,
"This man who is a father of two daughters and one son needs a break."

Needs a BREAK, my Khyber Pass (that's an euphimism for one's hinderquarters)!!!

He's already broken whatever is left of our collective backs! His children KNOW who is responsible for the Laiqat Bagh KILL.

Damned dynasty!

There is a general tendency to blame President Asif Ali Zardari for every thing under the sun: he is responsible for the price hike, for non-revival of top judiciary, for non implementation of the 'Niazam-e-Adl in Swat, for the drone attacks and for the falling standards of education and for the downward trend in estate market and even the stock market.

I wonder how one man could be held answerable for so many things; he has to be a giant or super natural being. He is not. President Zardari is an ordinary person with extraordinary qualities. AAZ suffered because of this 'friendship' tag and I fail to figure out how long he will be made to suffer as it is not possible for him to abandon his 'friendship' route.

As Pakistan faces a make-or-break scenario all eyes are focused on him and he is doing his best.

He is in a precarious situation. If he strikes a deal with the militants in Swat, the US raises its eyebrows and if he doesn't he buys the anger of all those who favour a safe and peaceful Swat. Is it easy to clean up the mess created by Pervez Musharraf?

It was the responsibility of AAZ to steer this country out of Musharraf presidency and he played this inning admirably. Even Nawaz Sharif tends to agree it was no easy task to drive Musharraf out of the presidency. It was Asif Ali Zardari who raised the slogan 'Go Musharraf go' and within weeks, out he went disgraced and injured with his ego he primed the most.

In the post-Musharraf scenario it was not easy to pick up the pieces and build institutions. It is hard to disagree with the fact that Mr Zardari has proved himself to be the real son of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Shaheed. Musharraf was a hard nut to crack but Mr Zardari dismantled him within no time and now he is lecturing on national security in India almost playing a 'Pakistani Gorbachev' in Armani suits. Musharraf was well dressed but was not well prepared for Zardari's onslaught that took him by surprise and forced his to surrender the presidency.

We must not to forget that President Zardari despite his weaknesses is a national leader. He can never sell one rupee roti in Larkana; Bhutto's home town and deprive others who buy it in five rupees. He has to take care of all even the poor miner in Baluchistan to a farmer in Multan to a school girl in Swat.

He cherishes national ethos of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Benazir Bhutto Shaheed. He once rightly declared: "I am Bhuttos's son in law, not of any 'natho khera'." Times and tides have proved that AAZ was so right. This man who is a father of two daughters and one son needs a break.

He deserves some mercy, some passion, and some consideration. He has hurt nobody, he is wounded and hurt, his children Bilawal, Bakhtawar and Asifa are wounded and hurt. The country of Benazir Bhutto's children deserves mercy in a ruthless society.

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Maj..I don't know if you are really a Major but what do you think about ''VILLAINS'' in Pakistani Army like ZIA,MUSH,AYUB,YAYA KHAN????????????????Who really screwed Pakistan during their dictatorships,and thanks to Zia who created monsters like Taliban.

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Major

Well said, thoroughly enjoyed your piece. Thanks

And Mushy said unto the Lord, "O Lord, my folks have wronged me, they un-garbed a commando out of his choice; make them suffer and punish them with sustained democracy" And the Lord smileth, "Not to worry, Mushy old boy, they will have it"
And the Lord said, "Let there be blight"; and there was Zardari. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Good take on what is now a social phenomenon...i.e. Zardari

Drop that MAJ and I'll read this article.