India Votes for Stability

Actually Riaz is completely jealous of Sharukhs and Kalams ......

he probably sends chanda to Jehadi producing madarassas in Pakistan in order to continue his jehad against hindus!!

Re: # 483

Riaz - Below is what I wanted to higlight. Indian secularism is much more deeper than you think it is.

Take a note above - On occasion of Eid, Indian country men (not only Muslms but all Indians) were greeted by Manmohan Singh (PM and Sikh), Sonia Gandhi (Catholic), Kalam (ex President and Muslim), Hamid Ansari (Vice President and muslim), Prathiba patil (President and Hindu), Gulam Nabi Azad (now ex CM of J&K and muslim). This can't be just a token representation for minorities in India - its much more deeper.

As for Kalam calling himself Iyer - you really have to understand the way Indian secularism works (or rather the way it should work but in actuality doesn't work 100% this way). Its parimarily based upon a simple sanskrit phrase - "sarva dharma sambhav". Meaning all religions are equal. If Kalam, being a muslim calls himself an Iyer - I don't see him much different from me. I was born in a hindu family but my grandma (she was a born hindu in Lahore) used to go to gurudwara. She had posters of both Guru Nanak and Ram in her prayer room. I have never been to Pakistan but I have been to a gurudwara more times than a Ram temple. I may be an atheist now - but I still beleive in a supernatural power - soemtimes I call it Ram, sometimes Nanak. It really does not matter. My Mom goes to both Gurudwara and Ram temple and considers them equal. That does not matter either.

Re: # 482

Riaz - Your quote about Kalam is from http://www.karuthu.com/forum/forum_posts.aspTID=3783&PID=88289

I looked at Karathu.com and the quote is the opinion of a chatter. Its not a news report.

Look at the following news report talking about Kalam participating in offering prayers at Eid:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1140720

And here's the quote from the above news report:

Clerics led Eid prayers at mosques in the national capital, including at the prominent Jama Masjid and Fatehpuri Masjid, where the faithful turned up in hundreds.

Vice President Hamid Ansari offered namaz at the New Delhi Jama Masjid near Parliament House while former President APJ Abdul Kalam offered prayers at Fathepuri Masjid in Old Delhi.

Jammu and Kashmir Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad, who was in the capital to attend official functions, offered prayers at Jama Masjid in Old Delhi. In his address at the mosque, Azad emphasised the importance of education in meeting the challenges of the modern world.

Muslims visited the houses of their relatives and friends and presented gifts.

President Pratibha Patil, Vice President Hamid Ansari, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and UPA Chairperson Sonia Gandhi greeted the countrymen on the occasion of the festival, requesting them to serve the cause of humanity.



Take a note above - On occasion of Eid, Indian country men (not only Muslms but all Indians) were greeted by Manmohan Singh (PM and Sikh), Sonia Gandhi (Catholic), Kalam (ex President and Muslim), Hamid Ansari (Vice President and muslim), Prathiba patil (President and Hindu), Gulam Nabi Azad (now ex CM of J&K and muslim). This can't be just a token representation for minorities in India - its much more deeper.

As for Kalam calling himself Iyer - you really have to understand the way Indian secularism works (or rather the way it should work but in actuality doesn't work 100% this way). Its parimarily based upon a simple sanskrit phrase - "sarva dharma sambhav". Meaning all religions are equal. If Kalam, being a muslim calls himself an Iyer - I don't see him much different from me. I was born in a hindu family but my grandma (she was a born hindu in Lahore) used to go to gurudwara. She had posters of both Guru Nanak and Ram in her prayer room. I have never been to Pakistan but I have been to a gurudwara more times than a Ram temple. I may be an atheist now - but I still beleive in a supernatural power - soemtimes I call it Ram, sometimes Nanak. It really does not matter. My Mom goes to both Gurudwara and Ram temple and considers them equal. That does not matter either.

Re: # 481
Thanks for the correction. I'm glad to see that Kalam did speak up. How about the other allegations like "he drew a lakshman rekha around him and NEVER allowed any Muslim to cross that" and "he is proud to be called as Kalam Iyer, participate in Deepawali festival but will stay away from Muslim festivals."?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 480

Riaz - Your post is factually incorrect. Kalam condemned the Gujarat riots in front of the joint session of Indian parliament.

Here's a link from the Tribune and the excerpt:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040608/main1.htm

Dr Kalam said: "It is a matter of serious concern that forces of communalism have been able to vitiate the atmosphere in the country, leading to outbreak of riots, the most gruesome face of which was witnessed recently in Gujarat. My Government is determined to combat such forces."

Re: # 478
Shoaib,
You being an Indian Muslim, I do understand the dilemma you face. You have to live with them every day. So, I think it's ok for you to bend yourself backward to vigorously defend your country's record on human rights.

But please don't close your eyes to the reality of how Indian Muslims live. I just recently quoted Shabana Azmi. But don;t go by that, if you wish. Go visit twocircles.net or read Yoginder Sikand or Pankaj Mishra or Asra Nomani or Arundhati Roy.

Here's what I have read about how Indian Muslims feel in general:

The Hindu ruling class arrived at a consensus that Indian Muslims are a threat for the national integrity and pushed us out of the mainstream and we were economically crippled. No one can deny that more than 80% of India's Muslim population lives in ghettos and slums.

In the past 60 years, the so called Muslim leaders have colluded with Congress and have screwedup the entire Muslim population with tags like “appeasement, vote bank, minority commission, Sachar committee, Haj subsidy, Shariah, triple talaq, polygamy, madrassa, mullah, Babri masjid, alienation, descrimination, suppression, Pakistani agent and TERRORIST�.

We get titles like: Thulukkan, Musla, kattus, Babur ke aulad, Hum paanch hamaare pachchees, thulukkane vettu thulukkachiye kattu, Desh drohi etc.

They will keep on repeating the names of a handful of Muslim poster boys, emerged in the past 60 years. Dr.Abdul Kalam, is considered as the best President because he drew a lakshman rekha around him and NEVER allowed any Muslim to cross that. He NEVER uttered a single word till date on Gujarat massacre and will never. He is proud to be called as Kalam Iyer, participate in Deepawali festival but will stay away from Muslim festivals.

Source: http://www.karuthu.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3783&PID=88289
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

And btw, Re #471 the word Punjab in my post ...

Should read, "And btw, Re #477 the word Punjab in my post.."

Cheers,

Riaz,

East Pakistan in 1971 was a civil war in which India recruited, trained and armed Mukti Bahini to attack Pakistani troops, Punjabis and Biharis and all those who opposed the separation movement

I'm sorry, Riaz mian, for getting involved in this discussion.

When people are massacred in a "civil war" it's ok, but a pogrom is bad. And, of course, it’s all India’s fault. I get it. No wonder no one was held responsible from the Pak Army/Government. They didn't do anything only.

Thank you for your patient replies explaining to me why illiterate countries like Pakistan and India should not have representative governments. Let’s hope you are successful in convincing your fellow countrymen in that regard, not that it should take much effort.

And btw, Re #471 the word Punjab in my post is followed a clarifier, namely ‘India’, which most people would take to NOT mean Pakistani Punjab. However, that should not deter you on lecturing me on the demographics of W Punjab and Sindh. You go right ahead.

I'll take your leave now.

Re: # 471

It again shows your ignorance about Pakistan. Sind is where millions of Pakistani Hindus live, not Punjab. I know some of them because they were my fellow students, colleagues or teachers. Many of them lived in the same neighborhoods as Muslims, there was no housing discrimination against them which is common in India against Muslims.

Your report on minorities notwithstanding, Hindu Sindhis in Pakistan have never been subjected to anything like Gujarat or Orissa.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's an article by Sharmila Bose on Bangladesh that Majumdar referred to:

The truth about the Jessore massacre
The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasn’t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose.

The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies.

The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: ‘April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore.’ It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war.

It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites.

Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: ‘The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city.’

The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre.

And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them?

It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasn’t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists.

It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistan’s military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladesh’s independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed.

Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or ‘Biharis’, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India.

As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: ‘East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial.’ The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: ‘The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore.’ “East Pakistani sources said�, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo.

In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled ‘Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal,’ The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. “Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib,� wrote Tomalin, “we saw another 40 Punjabi “spies� being taken towards the killing ground?�

Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the “mid-day murder� of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali “irregulars� were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment.

Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the government’s control. Like many other places, “local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control� in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians.

Tomalin records the local Bengalis’ claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore.

There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brother’s bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a man’s body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet.

Amar Sur’s anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a ‘shaheed,’ but their home was declared ‘vested property’ by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government.

In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and son’s dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: ‘Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army’. Foreigners might just have mistaken the ‘lungi’ worn by Sur for a ‘saree’, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a ‘lungi’ when they see one! And why present the same ‘body’ twice?

The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post “bought� that story too. The media’s reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times.

As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.

Source: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1060319/asp/look/story_5969733.asp
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 470

While I have acknowledged repeatedly on this forum that East Pakistan in 1971 was a shameful chapter in Pakistan's history and Pakistanis paid for it dearly, I find it ridiculous to compare it with Gujarat. East Pakistan in 1971 was a civil war in which India recruited, trained and armed Mukti Bahini to attack Pakistani troops, Punjabis and Biharis and all those who opposed the separation movement. And then India invaded a sovereign country against all international laws in an attempt to assert its hegemony in the region.

Gujarat, on the other hand, was an organized massacre of Muslim minority and more recently Orissa was an organized rape-murder of nuns, priests and other Christians by the same well-known Sangh Parivar murderers. India's history is filled with day-to-day discrimination against Muslims and anti-Muslim riots which continue to destroy large numbers of lives and cause a continuing humanitarian disaster.

As is often said, you judge a democracy by well it takes care of its weak and most vulnerable. India's record on taking care of its people, particularly children, is just as bad. 43% of India's children suffer from chronic hunger and 2.1m die each year from poor sanitation, half a million suffer from violent crime. It's a shameful record of terrible governance and an indictment of India's democracy...a democracy that denies the basic freedom from hunger and disease to vast majority of its own people.

As far as India's literacy is concerned, I am not sure what you are so proud of. It's near the bottom of the pile, not very different from Pakistan's. The organizations you talk about are tools for America's attempt to remake the world in its own image so it can perpetuate its own role as a world hegemon, with India as its favorite example of "world's largest democracy" and a faithful follower to promote US agenda as it faces a serious decline of its power.

I am not a pro-democracy bigot. I do not believe in democracy as an article of faith, as promoted by many here and by Uncle Sam as a panacea to all of the world's ill. I do not believe that countries with large numbers of illiterate people trapped in poverty can afford the luxury of democracy that puts the criminals, thugs and gangsters in parliament and power to perpetuate their crime spree.

Neither Pakistan nor India can grow out of the morass they are in with democracy as it's practiced there. This is the kind of situation for which America's founding father Alexander Hamilton said "Masses are asses". What South Asia needs is a Suharto or a Mahathir or a Lee Kuan Yu to step up on industrialization and human development decisively and forcefully and to save the people from themselves and their daily humiliations of continuing hunger, poverty and illiteracy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 469 Riaz: "Pakistan and Bangladesh have a better record than India".

Your statement is absolutely contradictory when applied to Pak, in view of the recent report from the Pak Newspaper Dawn that states as follows:

"Minority Rights Group International, a watchdog organization, ranked Pakistan last year as the world’s top country for major increases in threats to minorities from 2007 — along with Sri Lanka, which is embroiled in civil war. The group lists Pakistan as seventh on the list of 10 most dangerous countries for minorities, after Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Myanmar and Congo."

The talibans are extorting money in broad day-light from the Sikhs an amount of $150000.00, and the Pak govt is doing nothing to prevent this.

Source:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/ news/pakistan/15-Pakistans-religious-minorities-report-violence-nf-01

Re: # 469
riaz katue..
You need have some non-muslas left in Pakiland to engage in violence...so, jihadis are now crossing border and sneaking into India to carry out islamic task...

Shoaib bhai,

aprox 3 lakh Bengalis or more were killed in the span of a few months. And BHs were meted out 'special treatment'.

I am afraid you are wrong. According to Sharmila Bose, a respected Bengali lady sociologist (well actually I need not have added respected becuase all Bong lady sociologists are respected) only 6 Bongs were killed by Pak Army in 1970-71. Much of the massacre in 1970-71 were pogroms in BD were actually pogroms of Bihari and Punjabi Muslims carried out by Muktis and Indian Army.

Regards

Riaz,

Neither BD nor Pak have such a (riot) system.

And you will also never hear of Hindu-Muslim riots in the Indian Punjab. Why is that, mian?

Riaz,

You can not point to any organized pogroms like Guhjarat 2002...

This will go down a predictable path but have you heard of 1971? It's largely a well accepted fact that aprox 3 lakh Bengalis or more were killed in the span of a few months. And BHs were meted out 'special treatment'.

I'm sure many others on this board can give you many more stats on this.

Riaz mian, I admire your crusade against the ills of India, especially against the people who jerk of to India Shining on the Internet everyday. But with you glossing over the faults of the country of which you are an ‘alumni’ nobody will take you seriously.

Anyways, I'll repeat my question:

So with a literacy rate significantly lower than India's and with the economy growing "much faster" under army dictators, in your opinion, I assume, democracy is a strict no-no for Pakistan too, right?

Re: # 466
"Pakistan or Bangladesh with its record of Army rule/dictators have a better record of treating its minorities than India? I’d be very surprised if you would answer in the affirmative."

I say yes, Pakistan and Bangladesh have a better record than India. You can not point to any organized pogroms like Guhjarat 2002, nor can you find any examples of the destruction of equivalent of historic Babri Masjid led by a major political party and its leaders, in either BD or Pakistan.

As a U of Washington researcher puts it, there is a "riot system" in India that organizes massacres of Muslims. Neither BD nor Pak have such a system.

There is also segregation of where people are permitted to live based on religion. Even Shabana Azmi couldn't find a place of her choice to live in Mumbai, and she talked about it. (http://www.hindu.com/2008/08/17/stories/2008081758971000.htm).

The real estate agents in major Indian cities routinely sell "no Musla" as a plus for a building or a neighborhood.


Here's the Shabana Azmi story:

New Delhi: In a stinging attack on the country’s polity, film actress-turned-social activist Shabana Azmi has accused it of being “unfair� to Muslims, making only “token gestures,� instead of addressing the real issues.

She also targeted the Muslim leadership, saying it had not bothered to “clear the air about what Islam actually is� and contended that Muslims should change the image of their religion and community.

Asked on Karan Thapar’s ‘Devil’s Advocate’ show on CNN-IBN whether the country’s politics had been “unfair� to Muslims, Ms. Azmi replied, “yes.�

On whether it was individual politicians, the system or political parties that were to blame, she said, “I think there is not enough understanding of the fact that in a democracy how you treat the security of the minority must be an important part of its success.�

“You can’t make only token gestures and actually let them be in the state that they are as the Rajinder Sachar Committee report shows. So what happens is that token gestures are made, but real issues are never addressed.�

Asked whether she would say that Muslims were “victims of discrimination,� she said she could not buy a flat in Mumbai “because I am a Muslim.� She said she had read that the same had happened to actor Saif Ali Khan.

On what being a Muslim meant to her, Ms. Azmi said: “I’ve been raised in a very liberal, bohemian family in which religion has not played any part at all. For me, being a Muslim really was about Urdu, about eating biryani and wearing shararas on Id. So the cultural aspect of me was Muslim otherwise, because I am not religious, the religion did not matter. After the riots following the Babri Masjid demolition, I suddenly had people saying, you are a Muslim and hurling it as an accusation … it was a self-consciousness that I have never before experienced … [what] it made me do is say ‘yes, I am Muslim and what do you want to do about it?’ That, I can say, is increasingly happening, particularly in the western world. A lot of young kids today are wearing the burqa, are taking on an identity which really they don’t feel. Just because when you push somebody against the wall that’s what they come up with�

Ms. Azmi, who is a five-time National Film Award winner, emphatically said that Muslims did not need their “own leaders� and to press her point she cited that Jawaharlal Nehru was “a leader for Muslims and that’s the way it should be.�

She accused the politicians of promoting a stereotypical image of the Muslim community and not allowing moderate, liberal Muslim voices to be heard.

“You look at all the politicians, whether it is Atal Bihari Vajpayee, whether it is Indira Gandhi, whether it is anybody, the minute it is a Muslim question, you will get the ‘dariwaralas’ and only all the Maulvis to speak,� said the former Member of Parliament.

Ms. Azmi observed that the moderate liberal voice was witnessing a resurgence in the country unlike in the past.

Ms. Azmi said she viewed “with exasperation, anger, hurt and bewilderment� the way the West looked upon Islam as a threat and treated Muslims as figures of fear and hate.

Talking against the backdrop of violent protests in Jammu and Kashmir over the Amarnath land transfer row, she cautioned that it could create differences between Hindus and Muslims elsewhere in the country and said the crisis should be brought to an end.

“Yes, and if our politicians haven’t woken up to it yet they really don’t know what’s happening,� she said when asked whether the situation in that State was a challenge to the country’s integrity and future.

She emphasised that “the Indian Muslims were in a safer place because the Indian Muslim has a stake and space in Indian democracy.�

“It’s a very huge thing that we are a part of a democracy and Indian Muslims can aspire to become a Shahrukh Khan or an Irfan Pathan or the President of India and that makes the Muslims far more hopeful and far less in despair than in other parts of the world,� the actor said. — PTI
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 451 Riaz:

- "Do you think they have much of choice? The choice Indian democracy offers is between really bad and worse". Why are you having ulcers to make such comments sitting in a far away land and having no connection with the Indian democracy. India is the largest democracy and everybody in the world knows about it. When Mumbai was attacked President Bush stated "As the people of the world’s largest democracy (India) recover from these attacks, they can count on the world’s oldest democracy (USA) to stand by their side.� Recently (on the 14th or 15th May) Richard Halbrook was so cautious / hesitant to comment anything about India in the Af-Pak policy as the Indian election and its result was underway. So much for the Indian democracy, while Pak gets views such as international migraine (Madeline Albright), epicenter of world terror, next 2 weeks are crucial for Pak survival, terrorism as a state policy against its neighbours etc. Better work on the real issues in Pak, rather than create non-issues of India.

- "Is it? Have you looked at the various indicators of progress? Social? Economic? Human? Indonesia is well ahead of all of South Asia". I have nothing against Indonesia (TAHMED32 ARE YOU LISTENING). Yes I have checked and most indicators are similar to that of India. India is definitely much ahead in terms of Total GDP, stock of forex/gold reserves. What these indicators do not show is that in late 1990s and the Asian economic crisis Indonesia was worst affected in entire SA, due to poor governance of almost 160+ companies that were state owned and held by the than Indonesian president and his family.

Riaz: I admire that you do not make personal attacks and bring lot of facts (having lot of internet/google time) to make an objective discussion, but if numbers could say everythig the statisticians would be the rulers of the world. But that is not so. Numbers have to be interepreted, in a context, which in my opinion you deliberately avoid.

You left unanswered a previous interact about India or Pak getting more external aid/debt in a different article. Similarly you have provided enough articles/links about Indian poverty or hunger etc. but I also read an article in HT about Indian govt having stock of 5 times the annual wheat requirement and 2 times the rice requirement. While I would not dispute your facts, but having followed your posts for past few months, they always show Pak in positive light and India negatively no matter what the topic. You do not display the maturity to accept comments opposite to your views. I apreciated your responses on Kashmir we exchanged in another article. Just my thoughts..nothing personal, ignore if you wish, just as I have started ignoring your long posts :) Probably this is the longest post I have written so far.

Riaz,

At least in Pakistan's case, I do know that economy grew at a much faster rate than under military rule.

So with a literacy rate significantly lower than India's and with the economy growing "much faster" under army dictators, in your opinion, I assume, democracy is a strict no-no for Pakistan too, right?

Riaz,

Re Modi. What you say cannot be denied. I think everybody knows Modi was culpable in 2002, even if not directly but by profiting from what happened with more than a touch of glee.

But why in the world do you think that democracy in India is to blame for Gujarat? For what it’s worth, a lot of BJP chaps blame Modi for the debacle in 2009. Chandan Mitra, a BJP intellectual of sorts, went on record saying that projecting Modi as PM was a mistake.

Countries in S Asia have a pathetic record in treating their minorities. However, it’s democracy that offers these minorities the best bet. Does Pakistan or Bangladesh with its record of Army rule/dictators have a better record of treating its minorities than India? I’d be very surprised if you would answer in the affirmative.

Re: # 460
It's not just Modi that's gotten away. His second and third lieutenants, too, have escaped accountability.

The situation is compounded by what B Raman, a hawkish security analyst, was moved after the many attacks to describe as the "inherent unfairness of the Indian criminal justice system".
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 448
dm...
If you treat member of upper house as nominees from PM, then executive in India ( ministers etc...) can be like that USA. Our PM , Manmohan Singh, completed full term, without going to public,directly...

Re: # 459
Riaz Katue...
Let the police and court decide what Mr. Narendra Modi's fate...
It is not the job of the "katua"s to involve into civilised matter ( police /court etc. etc..) ...You can send your brother to carry out allahu kabooms against Modi or other infidels in neighbouring countries ( that anyhow is going on periodicaly)...But then, your other brothers will be paid back with bigger coin...do have the ability to withstand this?

Riaz Haq sahib,

Re: 453

Ayub's reign in Pakistan coincided with a strong global economy, Zia's economic growth was aided by American aid and strong remittances by NRPs (this period coincided with the Gulf boom). Growth in Mushy's period was also aided by strong US support post 9/11 and also much of this period coincided with a global boom. But in each case, the legacy was mixed.

Ayub's period led to great disparity between the two halves leading to 1971.
Zia's boom caused by US involvement also led to radicalisation.
Mushy's boom was frittered away by conspicuous consumption (I suggest you dig out Zee sahib's article written sometime in 2005 or 2006) and increased involvement in WOT led to the current chaos.

In each case, what you have missed is that none of the so-called growth was sustainable. And at least in Mushy's period India's economic growth (despite being a democracy) matched Pakistan's.

Regards

Re: # 453 Riaz: "Pak economy grew at a much faster rate than under military rule. During Musharraf period, the gdp doubled in 7 years".

Doubled or tripled or halved, it has no meaning when you look at just after Musharraf, for past many months Pak is begging every month to its friends and IMF. All other things fade away against this ugly truth and its associated consequences. You better start getting the statics related to the drone attacks, largest(3.5Million) displacment and living in tents since 1947, Pak Army bombing its own territory, killing its own citizens to get more aid and meet the US benchmarks etc.

US has promised Pak of $1.5B aid each year for next 5 years and you are going ga-ga over it. In the IPL closing ceremony the South African President mantioned IPL revived the SA economy by pumping more than Rs5.7B in just one month. You better start wooing ShahRukh, Shilpa, Priety, Mallaya, MukeshAmbani, BCCI etc. Seriously these ladies gentlemen can solve all the Pak economic problems. It is so much easier, all fun&games, no drone attacks, only condition is no repeat of SriLanka team attacks. Choice is yours.

Riaz:

The problem is that everyone knows that Modi is a culprit but no one has been able to prove it in a court of law. In any case, the supreme court has appointed a special investigation unit and has ensured that it remains free from the influence of state govt. So, let's see if anything comes out. No, I am not expecting miracles.

Re: # 454
Dost,
Unlike Hitler, Modi has gotten away with mass murder, and he is still the most powerful man in Gujarat. The long hand of the law has failed to reach him.

AS Pankaj Mishra wrote, "To take one example, the names of the politicians, businessmen, officials and policemen who colluded in the anti-Muslim pogrom in Gujarat in 2002 are widely known. Some of them were caught on video, in a sting carried out last year by the weekly magazine Tehelka, proudly recalling how they murdered and raped Muslims. But, as Amnesty International pointed out in a recent report, justice continues to evade most victims and survivors of the violence. Tens of thousands still languish in refugee camps, too afraid to return to their homes." Predictably, Mishra says, the Hindu nationalists, most of them resident in the UK and US, inundated his email inbox, accusing him of showing India in a bad light. It's not just the Hindu nationalists that are in denial of the facts about Muslim deprivation and suffering in India, the Indian Muslim elite such as Fareed Zakaria, several Muslim image-makers and Bollywood stars promote the exaggerated image of India as a "peaceful, stable and prosperous" democracy.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

dost_mutter writes "...if Modi had dispensed with democratic institutions after election..."

When the time comes some emergency can be constructed to do that also, if it can happen in the US and Germany it can very well happen in India and much more easily given the sorry state of its 'democracy'.

Anil writes "Jinnah's vision was no different on this issue"

Here is a walking talking contradiction. He quotes romair giving a resaon that the cause of secularism was the belief that TNT was wrong and yet he attributes the same quality to the founding father of TNT- get your logic straight and your head out of Adam Smith's _______cks.

Other than that have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

Romair:

""....i think the current govt. level secularism and/or multi-religious identity is more due to the personality of nehru and the fact that the creation of india had a concept that tnt is wrong..."

That is indeed how it all started, and he stayed in power long enough to nurture institutions with this vision.

Jinnah's vision was no different on this issue, I think. He just did not last longer, and no one else among the founding fathers to Pakistan shared this Jinnah vision.

Romair#450:

"....i think the current govt. level secularism and/or multi-religious identity is more due to the personality of nehru and the fact that the creation of india had a concept that tnt is wrong..."

I think that this is the main reason. As for large minorities, if this reason was not there, the proportion of Muslims in India perhaps would have been not much different from those of the Hindus and Sikhs in Pakistan.

It would be refreshing to see a Pakistani observer's take on Savarkar. My own thinking is that if the Hindus had put their faith in someone like Savarkar, the outcome of the negotiations with Jinnah would have been different because both would have understood and perhaps respected the other's viewpoint.

Riaz:

The analogy of Hitler with Modi would be valid if Modi had dispensed with democratic institutions after election. He couldn't and he can't, thanks to the constitution of India.

Re: # 436

At least in Pakistan's case, I do know that economy grew at a much faster rate than under military rule. During Musharraf period, the gdp doubled in 7 years, about 2-3 million jobs were created each year, tens of millions lifted out of poverty, the middle class grew substatially, industrial sector contribution to GDP rose to 27%, a vibrant mass media developed that took on Musharraf's misguided actions in 2007-8 against judiciary.

You can look at a graph of economic growth over decades under military and civilian rule in Pak at:

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/foreign-aid-trade-investments-and.html

Here's how Dalrymple described comparison between India and Pak in 2007:

"On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.
Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centers and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million."

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 447

Don't forget that Hitler was elected, just like Modi.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 441: "It is for the Indians to decide if they are gettig good or bad governance."

Do you think they have much of choice? The choice Indian democracy offers is between really bad and worse.

"Indonesia is just surviving country and nothing to be emulated."

Is it? Have you looked at the various indicators of progress? Social? Economic? Human? Indonesia is well ahead of all of South Asia. Do some reseasch on it. In fact, India is at the bottom of the pile by most measures.




Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

dost-mittar #: "You have to dig deeper into the past to know the background of hindutva.....Veer Damodar Savarkar, the father of the hindutva ideology."

...i have studied Savarkar quite a bit....much of the article i was writing was on Savarkar.....that is where i figured out that hindutva is the hindu version of tnt.....at least in its initial philosophy.....rss and bjp are the end results of this, not the philosophical base of it....

i, personally, think the hindutva philosophy, or some version of it will, eventually, dominate india....i don't think it will be the violent modi version.....it will, however, be the philosophical savarkar version......

.....it is taking a lot longer for it to happen in india, than in pakistan, because india has a very large muslim minority (and christian minority)......

....i think, evetually, india will have a hindu identity at a govt. level, and even congress will accept it.....minorities will live their relatively peacefully (like they do in pakistan), but they will not be allowed to impact this identity at the national level.....

.....i think the current govt. level secularism and/or multi-religious identity is more due to the personality of nehru and the fact that the creation of india had a concept that tnt is wrong.....if india accepts it, as well, then the concept of pakistan becomes legitimate......then what happens to indian muslims......

in the end, i think indian muslims, much like pakistani hindus on the muslim side, will accept the hindu identity of india, and will opt for a peaceful non-resistance life in such a majority, rather than a resistance based existence trying to deny this hindu identity.......

after which, south asia will slowly autonomise and federate into its historic base of multiple civilizations.....but that is a separate discussion.......

feroz:

I am fine. Thanks. Check your gmail message.

nkg#445:

Federal structure and strong executives are separate issues. The U.S has a federal system but the executive is free from legislature; Britain is not a federal state but it does not separate legislative and executive functions.

Riaz#442:

I am not so sure that minorities would have done any better under dictatorship. In my opinion, it is minorities which are better protected by democracy as it is best suited to protect against the tyranny of the majority, Hitler was a problem for jews and gypsies, not for white christians.

shoab#439:

Riaz is not alone in asking for a strong executive. Many prominent Indians, including the newly elected Shashi Tharoor, have suggested such an action. The NDA govt. had proposed a constitutional review to propose changes for a stable govt., but had to be dropped because "secular" forces suggested that it might be a ploy for bringing in uniform civil code, despite Vajpayee's categorical assurance that it was not so.

Almost all Indians agree that China is growing much faster than India because India is paying a price for democracy, a price which I believe that most Indians are willing to pay.

re: Dost-Mittar

Hello Sirji; hope all is well with you and hope my old friends on this site are well also. Best Wishes!

Ciao

Re: # 281 khyber:

"Spy...what do you think about this election victory by congress. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK CONGRESS WILL PICK Communists or BJB?".

By now you are aware of the Congress govt formation along with its allies of DMK(TamilNadu), TC(WestBengal) and some others like NC(Farooq, J&K) to be completed by Tuesday (26thMay). This time Congress has emerged the single largest party with 206 seats and less dependent on the regional parties.

You asked this question to me, but others have already expressed many views on this. I would repeat/summarize that the Indian style of democracy despite its weakness/short-comings is best suited for the available complexity, diversity across regions, languages, religions, caste, rich/poor etc. As a leading Indian journalist / author M.J. Akbar pointed out that Firstly - "India is not a secular nation because Indian Muslims want it to be secular. India is a secular nation because Indian Hindus want it to be secular". Secondly a model profile for a politician has emerged. The voter wants three qualities in his leader: honesty, competence and modesty"

These qualities were lacking in the left parties as well as the Mayawati/Lalu/Mulayam/Paswan and they lost. Yes the last 4 have been doing nothing but caste politics for last 20 years. While everyone pounces on the BJP as a Hindu party, but these 4 persons/parties have been getting away doing caste based politics and it was good that they have been defeated.

Regarding Congress they have given a large number of seats to the youth and Rahul Gandhi has decided not to accept any ministry. In the next 5 years it is hoped that he would get enough experience of the politics and the country, the people, their needs, issues etc. to be a good PM.

Re: # 438
dm...
India, with huge diverisity and population, should maintain the federal structure. The current trend is healthy for India...powerful state Govts. can make India better than a strong central govt. and weak state govt.s...

DM,

BTW, Riaz bhai should note that there are two Muslim Indians (I presume that they would prefer to be called Muslim Indians rather than Indian Muslims] on this thread and both of them like the Indian model of democracy despite Riaz bhai's contention that it doesn't work for minorities.

If Riaz mian’s contention is that the Indian System doesn't work as well for minorities then I would have to agree. I seriously don't think that there can be any argument about it just as there’s little doubt about that fact that Pakistan conducted a genocide in East Pakistan in 1971 on the majority of its “citizens� for which, till now, not too many have been punished or even censured.

Unfortunately, most of what Riaz mian says seems to be mere brash propganda rather than an honest discussion on the short comings of the Indian system, of which there are many.

Re: # 425 Riaz:

- "India is a living example of the miserable failure to deliver good governance to its teeming millions". It is for the Indians to decide if they are gettig good or bad governance. In the recent elections they have already demostrated this when they voted for Nitish (Bihar), Naveen (Orissa), Modi (Yes in Gujrat) etc. while rejecting the Left (in West Bengal and Kerela), Mayawati (UP) etc. Dont make such strong statements without really knowing about the Indian governance and its success/failure criteria.

- "What countries like India and Pakistan need are benevolent strongmen to lead them out of the swamp they are in to make them capable of good democratic governance". I am surprised at your suggestion, coing after having faced umpteen militry coups / dictatorships, and having seen that they are the root cause of all the problems in today's Pak. You are free to try it once again in Pak, but Thanks (no thanks) for giving that suggestion for India.

- "The experience of ASEAN founder nations of Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore is a good example how this scenario would work". Indonesia is just surviving country and nothing to be emulated. Malaysia and Singapore do not have the diversity as much as India. India needs more decentralization to accomodate multiple, regional views, as they say "unity in diversity".

Re: # 437 Muqaddam, BIMARU...There are other states such as West Bengal, Orrisa, Jharkhand, Chattisgadh that need to be included in this list. Rajasthan despite low literacy and water availability is doing much better with limited available resources. More than 50% IIT students overall India level are from Kota Rajsthan.

DM,

May be a directly elected president or prime minister whose job does not depend on the support of the shifting alliances of legislators would work better, especially if it allows him/her to go over the heads of the legislators directly to the people to get broad support on crucial policy decisions

I find this whole “go over the heads of the legislators directly to the people� really dichotomous after Riaz Main ripped apart Indians and their stupidity (and by extension Pakistan and Bangladesh with those two nations have a lower literacy rate than India’s). On the one hand he says that he doesn’t “know of any non-industrialized nation with widespread illiteracy and poverty that has made democracy work successfully� and then he want those same Indians to be approached “directly� and wants them to offer support on “crucial policy decisions�. Wah!

Anyways, let me ignore that, for the time being.

Coming to the point, so he wants an executive not dependant on the legislature, is that right? That’s the silver bullet—a strong executive?

Might I remind him that Mrs. G did “not depend on the support of the shifting alliances of legislators�. She was by the strongest executive that India ever saw, in some ways much stronger than even the US prez is vis-a-vis his legislature. There was no check on her power largely because she had bypassed all institutions, be it of party or of the legislature, to appeal “directly to the people� who gave her “broad support on crucial policy decisions�. Of course, during her time India most prolly saw its worst time economically.

On the other hand, under executives that did have to depend on “shifting alliances of legislators� since 1991, Indian has had its best time ever, economically. How does he explain that?

I’m afraid, Riaz mian’s advice will only lead to more disaster after which he will derive vicarious pleasure from all the exposed Indians arses its railroad tracks. For God’s sake, we need more decentralisation of power not less in a country India’s size. Having a prez form of Gov’t and “direct ballot’ in India (yeah, right) is nothing but building castles in the air.

majumdar#436:

It is one thing to say that Riaz bhai's prescription doesn't work and another to say that he did not give any prescription.

BTW, Riaz bhai should note that there are two Muslim Indians (I presume that they would prefer to be called Muslim Indians rather than Indian Muslims] on this thread and both of them like the Indian model of democracy despite Riaz bhai's contention that it doesn't work for minorities.

In India the present model is working quite satisfactorily with the benifits of development having percolated to the lower strata of the population in most states like Gujarat, Maharashtra , Haryana, Punjab, Tamilnadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhrapradesh, to name a few.
BIMARU states of Bihar, Madhya Pradesh, Rajasthan and UP are lagging behind in almost all parameters of development. Once these states get on the bandwagon, there is nothing to stop India

DM sb,

SE Asian model was based on dictatorships (of varying sorts). Pak and BD have whole lots of dictatorships with precious little to show for them.

Regards

Shoab/Majumdar:

To be fair to Riaz bhai, he did make some suggestions in his posting# 418; in particular the following suggestion:

"May be a directly elected president or prime minister whose job does not depend on the support of the shifting alliances of legislators would work better, especially if it allows him/her to go over the heads of the legislators directly to the people to get broad support on crucial policy decisions."

He also suggested SE Asian model.

Riaz:

"Currently, a number of industry sectors have scale restriction by law to help small and medium size enterprises."

This was certainly true during the period of Nehruvian License Raj. However, most of these restrictions have been removed during the economic reforms of recent years.

Re: # 431
majumder...
Dictatorship...Hamdim2 would have said "Viceroy from USA/UK"....this fellow will look for Khalifa from Saudi Arabia....

Sorry , badly framed.

What political system would you like to put into place?

Regards

Riaz mian,

You haven't answered Shoaib bhai's basic question. What kind of governance would you like for the countries in South Asia?

Regards

Re: # 429
riaz katue...
India at least constructed 63327 KM Railway track to look for...Buinistic country like Pakistan, does not posses such a huge infrastructure to be used for anything....

Re: # 426

No, you should continue to head to the railroad tracks to assert your democracy, freedom and civility. It's good for you. And don't forget to spray plenty of heeng to enhance your body fragrance. That's good for you, too.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

The previous post of mine was in response to #425 by Riaz mian.

I don't know of any non-industrialized nation with widespread illiteracy and poverty that has made democracy work successfully...India is a living example of the miserable failure to deliver good governance to its teeming millions.


Quite. Most South Asians people couldn't tell their elbows from their bums. But you still haven't answered my question. What mode of gov't do you suggest for the jahils of South Asia?

Re: # 418
riaz katue...
so, we ( India) should follow the beduin gangster's manual and create a hell of a mess like Pakistan...

1 let the NATO forces bomb our country
2 international sporting bodies ban all sorts of sporting event (international) in our country.
3 countries put travel advisory against our country...
4 some super power threaten to bring back the country to stone age
5 rush with begging bowl every now and then...

The list of achievement will be very big indeed....

Re: # 424

I don't know of any non-industrialized nation with widespread illiteracy and poverty that has made democracy work successfully...India is a living example of the miserable failure to deliver good governance to its teeming millions.

The ideas I presented in my earlier comments were meant as suggestions to those who consider absolute faith in democracy as the key part of their own "religious" orthodoxy. But I really don't think tinkering around the edges would work well.

What countries like India and Pakistan need are benevolent strongmen to lead them out of the swamp they are in to make them capable of good democratic governance. The experience of ASEAN founder nations of Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore is a good example how this scenario would work.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz mian,

Who wants the kind of abject poverty, hunger, crime, disease, joblessness, thousands of farmer suicides, general lack of opportunity, violence against minorities, etc that Indian democracy has given the vast majority of its people?

You think Indian democracy is responsible for its "poverty, hunger, crime, disease, joblessness, thousands of farmer suicides, general lack of opportunity, violence against minorities, etc"? Quite.

Before ’52 when we had no form of representative gov’t, of course, we were a veritable paradise. And our other South Asian neighbors, who by and large, thankfully, do not subscribe to any form of democracy, obviously suffer from none of these ills.

By the way, just of out curiosity, what mode of government do you subscribe for India?


Both presidential (US/France) and parliamentary (UK) require a fairly literate and discerning electorates to vote based on key issues and overall agenda rather than region, religion, caste, ethnicity and other considerations that subvert the larger national agenda.

I’m a bit confused. Due to the general lack of education that the avg South Asian has, do you suggest a curtailing of democratic rights in these regions? And what is this “larger national agenda� that you speak of? I feel voting along lines of region is par for the course in a federal set-up. If you admire the US set-up so much, you should agree with me.

A California style direct ballot initiative process may also be helpful in more decisive action on key policies to bypass the legislators.

Hmmm…so now the Indians would not vote on “region, religion, caste, ethnicity and other considerations that subvert the larger national agenda.� ? What’s makes a direct ballot a panacea? The population still isn’t “fairly literate�?

Re: # 421

The way to look at the relative sizes of industrial sector in different nations is by its contribution to GDP. Here are some figures:

India 19.3%, Pakistan 26%, EU 27.3%, US 20.4%, Germany 29%, UK 25.6%, Brazil 38%,...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_sector_composit ion
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Shriman Masadi ji:

Ram Ram.

Riaz:

India has 8th largest industrial base when it is of poor productivity and quality. If these are improved the base is adequate for India.

When I said let market forces decide, means let the market of 470 million cell phones decide where they are made. Hyundai is moving their auto production for certain cars entirely to India (Chennai). Because they want to get a market share.

Riaz:

There is no standard bearer of democracy. Democracy is not written in a book. It cannot be it is for the people, by people, of the people. This means it will be what people want. Therefore, plant and transplant are meanining.

Dear Pakistan Hijras Worldwide Riaz Haq saheb,


According to Forbes, India has 47 companies in the Forbes Top 2000 Global companies list.....Pakistan only has 2....and the 2 Pak companies have a combined market value of under $3 billion...pathetic...what do you have to say about that ?


http://www.forbes.com/2009/04/08/worlds-largest-companies-business-global -09-global_land.html

Re: # 416
tahmed: I have nothing against democracy as a system of governance, I just don't think the system imported and transplanted from US or UK would work well every where. And each has its own limitations. What I like about the US system is the local grass-roots democratic participation in matters such as school boards, libraries, city commissions etc. that allows people to have tangible influence and makes their reps accountable to people. What I don't like about the US system is the inordinate power and influence of big corporate donors/contributors in Washington that works against the people.

British democracy has its own flaws because it does not distinguish between legislature and executive and diminishes the contribution of non-politician technocrats in running the key ministries. And often lead to unstable, fractured and weak coalitions that lack the power to do what must be done to serve the greater interest of the vast majority of people. Small parties with their narrow agendas are able to dictate policies in such coalitions.

Both presidential (US/France) and parliamentary (UK) require a fairly literate and discerning electorates to vote based on key issues and overall agenda rather than region, religion, caste, ethnicity and other considerations that subvert the larger national agenda.

Indian democracy suffers from most of the ills I list above.
The absence of rule of law and extremely slow and unresponsive judicial and criminal justice systems in India make matters worse.

In order to become effective in dealing with the massive challenges of hunger, poverty, lack of opportunity, poor infrastructure, India needs a more decisive and assertive executive that is not hamstrung by slow-moving, unresponsive and corrupt legislators involved in serving their own petty little interests.

May be a directly elected president or prime minister whose job does not depend on the support of the shifting alliances of legislators would work better, especially if it allows him/her to go over the heads of the legislators directly to the people to get broad support on crucial policy decisions.

A California style direct ballot initiative process may also be helpful in more decisive action on key policies to bypass the legislators.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Alumni WW don't waste your time with tahmed, he is skirting around the real issues just so that he can throw "America" out there as terms of the contract based on which he has sold his soul to the white man. Democracy exists nowhere in the world, it cannot exist in a capitalist world order where the few own the means of life period. It is a good idea but for the idea to become reality it needs several preconditions without which it cannot become a reality and those preconditions cannot be achieved by sloganeering about democracy as the US elite and tahmed are doing...Anil on the other hand does not have a clue about anything, he can just recommend that you read the economist and throw out entrepreneurship from the Adam Smith Victorian capitalism era as if that describes the monopoly capitalism of the present....the guy is a total _______.

TNITC masadi

TNITC masadi

RiazHaq: You answer is fine - but it is not the answer to the question I asked in #409.

Second question: Is there any country in the world that has something closer to democracy than India? And if you think there is, why do you think so?

Thanks in advance for your response. (these are not rhetorical questions btw, but an attempt at having an educated discussion on this important subject).

Re: # 412 Prof R.Haq you are wasting your energies preaching to people who are blind followers of democracy.We are different race people and two different people, religion so as waters separate and go different way but end at last in dirty sea.Same Indian so called democracy is giving misery and we have same thing with awami hukumshahi or military hukumshahi end is same begger with increasing begging bowls and humilation. Wonder what is all use of hukumshahi or democracy when finally all people beg for rights. Some times it must be fault with what we drink, breath or eat may be Former president had point when he said humid hot makes blood hot for civil rule. That may be reason ?

Re: # 411
Anil,
I agree that the Indian government should focus on infrastructure as a priority, along with access to public education and healthcare. But it must also promote mass manufacturing as a macroeconomic policy. Currently, a number of industry sectors have scale restriction by law to help small and medium size enterprises. But these restrictions make them uncompetitive relative to other players such as China.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 406 He said something like this. Democracy is bad system of governing but nobody has found any thing better. ( except Nizanm E adl)

Re: # 409

If you believe India is an example of democracy, then I don't see why anyone would want Indian-style democracy. Who wants the kind of abject poverty, hunger, crime, disease, joblessness, thousands of farmer suicides, general lack of opportunity, violence against minorities, etc that Indian democracy has given the vast majority of its people?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

India's startegy:

1. Invest in infrastructure
2. Focus on Service sector
3. Leave manufacturing to market forces

is sound.

I have to go with my daughter. I will answer rest of your points.

Democracy is one man one vote to accumulate power, and let the representatives so elected distribute power. This what Lincoln meant.

Riaz#408:

No, it does not, neither does America's for that matter.

RiazHaq #407 If India is not a democracy, what is it?

bulleya#386:

You have to dig deeper into the past to know the background of hindutva.

People generally consider Jinnah/Iqbal to be the father of the two nation theory. They are wrong: the real founder of this theory was Veer Damodar Savarkar, the father of the hindutva ideology. He was a remarkable character - an atheist hindu who admired Islam in the same way that our kaal/eklavya does and wanted Hindus to emulate it by having a similar umma-type identity. Incidentally, he was the first Indian who called the 1857 mutiny the first war of independence, believed in violent agitation against the British rule and was sent to Kala Pani (Andaman) for that. He was the founder of the famous Hindu Mahasabha. When the RSS was formed much later, he was contemptuous of it because the Sangh shunned political participation and had a mission of cultural reawakening of the Hindus. The RSS came indirectly into politics in 1951 when it sponsored Jan Sangh (it still claims to be non-political) and for some time the JS and HMS were political rival; however, the Jan Sangh which later became BJP displaced HMS as it had a superior cadre of RSS workers behind it. Now, ironically, Savarkar is an icon of the BJP and they have succeeded in having a portrait of him in the Parliamentary gallery during their rule at the Centre.

Re: # 406
Dost,
The best definition of democracy for me is Licoln's definition: “Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, for the people�

Do you think the current Indian democracy fits this definition? If your answer is yes, please explain how.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz#380:

If democracy was that you say it is, then Churchil would not have called it the worse system in the world except for all others; or your own Iqbal would not have derided it as a system in which hands are counted, not heads.

You don't have to change the definition of democracy to suit your hatred.

Re: # 404

Anil,
Comparing India to US today makes no sense because US went through a major industrial revolution before going into financial services, and other service sectors. So did all the other rich countries of the world. India continues to lag even in competitively manufacturing simple stuff like toys which should create a large number of jobs for people who don't have the skills for high-tech jobs.

Here's a recent Time magazine story that should wake you up to the reality of manufacturing's impact on jobs, trade, economy etc.

Fears over Chinese imports are rife in India even though, or perhaps because, bilateral trade between the two countries is burgeoning at nearly 50% a year and the balance of trade is widening in China's favor. In 2004, when bilateral trade was $13.4 billion, the trade balance was in India's favor to the tune of $1.7 billion. But by 2006, India's trade balance had swung to a deficit of $4.12 billion, which grew to $16 billion last year. China is India's largest trading partner.

India's toy industry, which employs some 2 million people, has been complaining of unfair competition since China joined the WTO in 2001. "Plenty of people lost their livelihoods when the Chinese swamped the market," says Subhash Gorwaney of Khazana, which manufactures wooden educational toys, "They offered similar products, more variety, unbelievably low prices, but also lower quality." He added that the competition has not been without benefit. Indian manufacturers "have changed their methods, introduced innovations, and overall the bar has been raised."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 401

Riaz Mian:

Please give up being obstinate, you are making my point.

"... The road that led to the plant was a dirt road, as WSJ described it. ...... The road that took the WSJ reporter there was a six lane highway straight from a modern airport."

These roads, incase you need to be reminded are called infrastructure, and their construction is not called manufacturing.

It was comparable to plant in China, accoring to IBM who qualified this plant and the one in China. There difference was Chinese used nimble fingers to manually do surface mounting of components and had employed over 1,500 workers.

I am talking about early 90s. Chinese industry was non existant. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and Korea were dominating. Manufacturing had started to move into China.

Service sector (IT included) job is higher value and brings more value (even when measured in terms of $) into the economy. Therefore, it puts more in the hands for spending. This spurs demand for goods and services. Jobs thus created are indirect jobs and definitely more than a manufacturing job. Unless you have more than "flipping hamburger" argument, you may think of taking my experience on it.

Therefore, real question is what is that spurs the economy. Service first or manufacturing, no matter where it is as along there is a market to cater.

Just look at the U.S. in today's economy it has more jobs in the service sector. Service sector jobs employ more in service intensive economy) produce more disposable income and hence more indirect jobs. So much more that it can sustain manufacturing done elsewhere. This cycle is sustainable as long as new opportunities are created, like Clean Technology etc. which create jobs that cannot fly away. In global economy they have a tendency to fly to the place where a product (even service) can be produced (or provided) at the lowest cost.

If the trade balance is favorable then import of manufactured goods can be tolerated provided there is something in the economy to generate foreign exchange (Saudi Arabia is a great example of this). And hence the U.S. must innovate else it will be in trouble. What you are missing is a different orientation in thinking from hamburger flipping is the only service job.

Otherwise an efficient, productive and competitive manfuacturing base, even if it is secondary is sufficient, like Tata Nano plant. It is not world class but sufficient to meet demands of Indian market. They have priced themselves so low, that no one can deliver a Honda or Hyundai at their price. Smart move.

Please do not forget what I have mentioned that India already has a large industrial base (8th largest). This is when its productivity and quality are poor.

Can you imagine what would be its output when it productivity and quality increase? Well experts have done it.

McKinsey and Co had done a study on Indian economy where they had rightly pointed to the priorities that I have outlined. This report estimated this manufacturing base with continuing investments in improving productivity and quality would be sufficient to meet demands for the service sector based economy of India. Hence the priority in manufacturing is to improve productivity or quality, rather put a new Semiconductor Fab, when infrastructure is poor.

Even investment to improve quality and productivity was proposed to be left to the competition and market to take care of it.

For your knowledge, infrastructure construction will create the highest number lower skill jobs in India, certainly much more than manufacturing.

Somehow I get a feeling that you think that by throwing more people into manufacturing better cars will come out (for example). I gave you a real life experience of cold $10 million of my own funds into manufacturing.

Evolving world class manufacturing before world class infrastructure is foolish. It renders (as was in my case) a world class manufacturing unable to make money. A lot of firsts, lot of rewards, very high visibiility and a lot of production, but impossible to make profit.

Of course you can run charity, if that is what you have in your mind for "jobs". Unfortunately, markets and bankers are quite brutal in their demand for profits.

Re: # 398

700 jobs in India's largest electronics manufacturing plant? It must not be very large by Chinese standards.

It's probably like the largest shoe manufacturing plant in India that Wall Street Journal described and compared with China's largest shoe manufacturing plant a few years ago.

It was interesting to note the "largest in India" stood for thousands of shoes manufactured in primitive conditions smelling of toxic glue being applied manually and the fans shut because of recurring power outages. The road that led to the plant was a dirt road, as WSJ described it.

The "largest" in China made over a million shoes with modern machines, no glue smells, with reliable electricity and good exhaust. The road that took the WSJ reporter there was a six lane highway straight from a modern airport.

That's what a real Industrial revolution has meant for China. The contrast is very sharp and clearly visible to a casual observer. That's how China has lifted a historically large number of poor out of poverty and India has more poor today than it did in the early 1990s when reform began.

British Minister Alexander last year contrasted the rapid growth in China with India's economic success - highlighting government figures that showed the number of poor people had dropped in the one-party communist state by 70% since 1990 but had risen in the world's biggest democracy by 5%.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 398

Are you suggesting that all of India's low skilled and unskilled labor can be absorbed by IT? If not, what would they do instead? Go into banking and real estate? Flip hamburgers? Work for Walmart type retail outlets? Wait on tables? Who would buy from them if people have little or no disposable income?

Please give me an example of a nation even a quarter or less of India's size that has been able to create jobs en masse without a very large manufacturing sector.

Do you remember what Ford said and did and how he paid his employees when he set up his Model T assembly line? And Ford is still doing much better than the rest of the auto industry.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Full time employment is a myth. Even communist never provided.

Riaz:

In early 90s I had set up India's largest electornis manufacturing plant. To compete globally, I had to bring in automation to bring productvity and quality. It did become the largest exporter of computer electronic parts, and in 1994 it exported 50% of computer hardware exports from India.

Your notion that world class manufacturing creates more jobs than world class is services is wrong. I created about 700 jobs in this world class plant (if you know Zia Malik, he has seen this plant as him). I benchmarked with IT. For every direct job I created it created 4 indirect job. IT industry created two times more jobs.

Anil: you say, "Industrialization in today's world is not the only way to generate jobs."

Yes, I agree, but it's still the best way to generate massive number of jobs that can pay a living wage that India's huge population needs badly. Service sector is not going to do it. There are no examples of large countries who have succeeded in providing near full employment to their population without industrialization in recent history.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Raiz:

This only tells me what you absorb. There is something that needs to be done.

As they say beauty is in the eyes of beholder.

Re: # 392

Here's an excerpt from Economist's India story you pointed me to:

Then again, Indian voters are not to be second-guessed. And Congress must now earn their support. In a country with 60m malnourished children, 40% of the world’s total, and an abysmal record in providing its citizens with the basic education and medical care that is supposed to be theirs by right, there is much to be done. And freed of its most troublesome allies, Congress will have no excuse for failure.

Mr Singh, who says the party’s victory “comes with a challenge of rising expectations�, appears to welcome this. On May 19th he challenged his new government to provide “a social and political environment in which new investment can be made.� If that promises some liberal reforms, of the country’s statist financial sector, for example, or its ruinously politicised higher education, Congress’s victory would be welcome indeed.

Few in Congress claim to want such changes, however, and Mr Singh, beholden to Mrs Gandhi, does not command his party. Sadly, not much reform may follow. But for many Indians, and all who wish the country well, this is still a pleasing moment. The divisive BJP and belligerent Communists have been forced to think again. The venal SP, whose manifesto included a pledge to curb the worrying spread of computers and English, is not in the government. And Miss Mayawati, who had hoped to be India’s next prime minister, is stuck in UP, inspecting the many statues of herself that she is building there.

Along with the usual accolades in Western India about Indian democracy, it basically reinforces my points about the lack of delivery of basic services.



Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

It seems you are a hog for trivia. Let me share something with you.

India's industrial structure was seventh or eight largest in the world in 1990s. Believe me that there are more than eight industrialized developed countries in the world.

Please talk to some economists and they will tell you that job, capital and markets are more important than anything. Industrialization in today's world is not the only way to generate jobs.

If India and China followed the conventional model that you tout, yhe air you breathe, you will be able to see before you breath.

Classic development trajectory agriculture to industrial to services, is not necessarily the panacea.

Indian model is interesting and different. Its service sector is seizable and quite productive and growing quite rapidly. IT sector is just an illustration.

India's industrial complex despite being eighth largest, is among the least productive and among the lowest quality. This happened due to license raj and captive market that India had created.

Now that competition is getting introduced, there is no reason to believe that market will not play itself out.

India needs to stay on its trajectory of becoming a giant in services, which by virtue of its population is as possible as oil in Saudi Arabia. As far as industrial complex, productive and quality improvements makes this seventh largest industrial complex competitive in global economy.

Where India is gettin killed in its infrastructure which has not kept pace with its growth in other areas. If you have to send goods through goods train, you should add 25% extra to it, and wait as long as 21 days to reach destination.

Its roads suck, you just need to travel to feel it.

Airports are clogged, births at its ports are never empty and ships at times wait for days to off load or to load cargo.

You will see these only when you understand micro indicators are more important, just as the micro indicator of Mumbai rail road track gives you morning delight. Above all get your head out of the sand, and also rid yourself of hatred. There is nothing to gain locking your horns with hindu right wingers who come to Chowk to rattle persons like you.

It seems you have heard someone talking about the classical model of economic development and you harp about it as gospel, as a shloka from gita, or aayat from quran. You may need to go beyond it.

Re: # 391

In the early days of US democracy (about 200 years ago), the voting rights were limited to while men who owned property. It was an agrarian society, much like India's, for which Alexander Hamilton said "Masses are asses".

The term Robber Barron was coined by Theodore Roosevelt, about 100 years later, to describe the industrialists and bankers when industrial revolution came to America. These people were not gangsters and common criminals who dominate politics in the heartland of India.

The US did not become a real democracy until after it became industrialized and voting rights were extended to most of its citizens. India has not really had an industrial revolution that leads to a better educated, more discerning voters.

If you look at the evolution of democracy in US and compare it to US, India has a very long way to go.

The real question is: Can India really have an industrial revolution with the people in charge of India's "democracy" today? For that, you have to look at the rapid industrialization of China for inspiration.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 391

Riaz:

"And when you are done with your screams of holy cow and where is the beef, may I suggest for your envious reading please take a look at the cover of the latest Economist and read the related article."

You might just get a clue to answers to your agony.

Re: # 390

Riaz:

"...Holy Cow!! Where's the beef here!..."

Is this the only thing left at the bottom of your barrel?

Yes, gangster's elections are blot on Indian democracy. If you have a solution please forward it to India's Election Commission, or Supreme Court. Till then just watch and get your early morning delights thinking of Mumbai's rail road tracks.

For a bit of information for you to chew. Do you know who used to get elected in the early U.S. I will give you a hint, they were called as Robber Barons. Machinery is still left in some places, for you to see, but first you might need to get your head out of sand, or while inside there please think of inveting glasses that can help you see through the sand.

And when you are done with your screams of holy cow and where is the beef, may I suggest for your envious reading please take a look at the cover of the latest Economist and read the related article.

Re: # 389
Holy Cow!! Where's the beef here!
What a fantastical response to gloss over the reality of India's failed democratic experience! There is no more powerful turn-off for those wishing for democracy than the criminal-infested Indian legislatures, gangster politicians lining their pockets, lack of basic infrastructure, and the poor, illiterate and hungry residents of India's vast slums.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 386

Romair:

I would love to read your essay whenever you finish and post it, that you must do.

"...Indian pot has variety that no one, ... (including)right wing hinduvta, can change..."

This statement is almost like a law, much like no one could win Russia by attacking it. Napolean to Germans all fell victim. Islam drowned in it and chose to reconcile, as a result a wonderful amalgam evolved in India, something that ended with the partition. I have talked to ardent hindutva wadi even they acknowledged the creation of such an amalgam, which, even according to them, has brought good not bad. Gandhi had often said "let the winds of change blow in through India's window".

You are correct that India can neither be analyzed nor encapsulated by simple slogans. Whether they are BJPs "India Shining", or Riaz's morning delights for comfort and pleasure from Mumbai's rail road track.

It has a critical mass that is gathering momentum in a direction which by no means is wrong (hindutva wadis take over threat). India's neighbors at their own peril can bury their head in the sand and enjoy morning delights.

Shriman Masadi ji:

You and your rant, as long as you continue with it, you will never learn. You are bankrupt of points to bring forward, and resort to this.

"...Indian pot has variety that no one, from your type to right winge hinduvta, can change..."

Learn the above as a mantra or aayat whatever you are comfortable with. You, Riaz & Co can pick at its however defective democracy, but that is no going to change it. Just as right wing hidutva wadis cannot. Even if Pakistan nukes it, there will some of it left to get even not just mad. You have to spend time in India to understand it. Try to find a fellowship in some university there. JNU could be a good place for you to start.

Read what Romair has written. He is one Pakistani who has risked his career to go into India's IT center, bring engineers out to work with him in Pakistan. Ask him to write an essay so that you, Riaz & Co can learn. What he accomplished, I have not heard of anyone else accomplish.

As regards to the rest of your rant, please try yoga and meditation to get over it.

Anil wrote "With faster changes, new dynamics get created at faster space to not let your 7th century to Mills ranting. Indian pot has variety that no one, from your type to right winge hinduvta, can change."

These are the contradictory statements that Hasho was talking about. You write that 60 years is nothing in a 1000 year history, when I say that more changes have been produced in those 60 years which makes your 'shortness' BS invalid you respond with something that supports my point and not yours. Your miserable 4th century BC to Adam Smith nonsense is long passed and no 'entrepreneurship' ranting (rhetoric) that does not represent the reality of capitalism in today's world can prove that you are anything but a goddamned fool.

TNITC masadi

dost-mittar/anil #:"You make several points which should probably be addressed in an article by itself (hint! hint!")"

....all said and done, indian democracy is something, all indians can be legitimately proud of (that and indian rise in IT; and of course malika sharawa and rakhi sawant; not mention arjunm)....at least the election side of it.....it has yet to translate into widespread uplift of humanity....but that may well happen also........

.....it may, actually, be unique in history......no where, in history, has there ever been a democracy of such size.....most importantly, and this is what most pakistanis do not understand - india is so gigantically complex, varied, and with so many potential trouble spots, that it is almost impossible to manage and run......the potential social problems of pakistan pale in comparison.....since pakistani is much less diverse and complex (even though pakistan, itself, is one of the most diverse countries in the world)........india is on a scale of its own.......

........hence, i am not sure if anyone can analyze india correctly......it is like flying a plane, which is based on ten different designs and models, with multiple pilots....yet it remains airborne.......

having said that, i have indulged in trying to figure out the bjp....actually, i tend to look at the philosophical center of movements, and not on the end result......so an attemept to understand hindutva.....

.......i, like many other people, used to think hindutva was a fascist idea, like talibanism, which any reasonable person - indian or otherwise - would hate.......until i started meeting people in bangalore......close friends of mine, whom i expected to be very anti-bjp etc.......it turns out that bjp won in karnataka.......that got me thinking that so many of my friends, must have voted for the bjp.......otherwise normal people.....

hence i concluded that there must be more to hindutva than modi and advani, and the various pogroms.....

.....since then, i have, actually, spent a lot of time researching hindutva.....from its foundations......philosophically, the closest comparison i can make is to pakistani's version of tnt.......one could call it the hindu tnt......hindutva supporters (setting aside the extreme violent ones), simply want a hindu identity for india, of which it should be proud......they don't want to kill minorities etc.....i have never had any problems with any of my hindutva friends.....

but they don't want minorities messing around with india's hindu identity........however, the more extreme amongst them, are ok to kill minorities, if they feel the minorities are harming a hindu identity....

kind of like pakistanis are fine with christians and hindus......there are hardly any pogroms in pakistan's history.....but if tomorrow, a hindu pakistani said he wanted krishna's statue in the national assembly.......or wanted pakistan to be just a republic and not an islamic republic, he would be in big trouble.......

........as for an article, i wrote one, but was unable to complete it.......

Alumni WW writes to tahmed "tahmed sahib,
With all due respect to you, I think your belief in democracy is dogmatic, not pragmatic. "

Alumni WW, you are wasting your time reasoning with this sellout. He is in the habit of using 'democracy' as slogan much like his masters do in the U.S.as they dictate terms not only to their own public in the policies that predominate US national affairs but to the world at large. Democracy is not possible when a tiny one percent of the U.S. population controls the major chunk of its wealth, predominates information and determines the national and indeed international agenda. In such a scenario there is a master-slave relationship, just because those slaves inside the borders of the US happen to be 'house slaves' as against the field slaves of the 'Third World', does not mean democracy either exists or works under advanced capitalism. First we need to cultivate a public that can think and reason, and that cannot happen in the current US social structure- that structure cannot be changed through democratic means because of reasons mentioned above, it requires dictatorial changing at a fast pace, a dismantling of this concentration. Once a public evolves, only then can democracy be practiced.

Now the condition with the Third World is different, they already have a public with a consciousness due to circumstance, the field slaves know their oppressors, so dictatorial bs there is for control purposes only, over their the roots of democracy are much more well developed than anything in the West, so the institutions of democracy that dictatorship destroyed need to be cultivated and the military dismantled.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 382

Please take a look at an OECD graphs showing economic growth in Pakistan over several decades, both under military and civilian rule.

Here's the link: http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/foreign-aid-trade-investments-and.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq: And no doubt India has not achieved a perfect democracy. But it is on the right path, and that is what matters. One can point flaws in any society - just pointing to flows does not make you an objective observer. Merely a polemicist.

Riaz Haq: you seem totally confused. If dictatorship brought prosperity, then Pakistan would have alleviated poverty long ago today. Along with North Korea. No one claims that democracy means instant transformation. Pakistanis have rejected your anti-democratic viewpoint when they got rid of Musharraf the scoundrel.

A Deeply Unfair Cast of Mind

A phenomenal diary at Dailykos.
This site supports President Obama and is probably funded by the Democratic Party. Hopefully, the honest and the upstanding citizens of this country would not let the Abu Gharib pass in to the history w/o appropriate punishment to the culprits at the highest level.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/5/21/734169/-A-Deeply-Unfair-Cast-o f-Mind

A Deeply Unfair Cast of Mind
by Garrett
Thu May 21, 2009 at 08:22:20 PM PDT
May 21, 2009
“At Abu Ghraib, a few sadistic prison guards abused inmates in violation of American law, military regulation, and simple decency. For the harm they did to Iraqi prisoners and to America's cause, they deserved and received Army justice.
And it takes a deeply unfair cast of mind to equate the disgraces of Abu Ghraib with the lawful, skillful, and entirely honorable work of CIA personnel trained to deal with a few malevolent men. “
Dick Cheney

“She was escorted downstairs to another cell where she was shown a naked male detainee and told the same would happen to her if she did not cooperate. She was then taken back to her cell, forced to kneel and raise her arms while one of the Soldiers (SOLDIER31, A/519 MI BN) removed her shirt. She began to cry, and her shirt was given back as the Soldier cursed at her and said they would be back each night. “
Fay Report http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/dod/fay82504rpt.pdf#page=105

He [General Sanchez] said they are like dogs and if you allow them to believe at any point that they are more than a dog then you've lost control of them.
General Janis Karpinski (June 2004)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3806713.stm

The Abu Gharib Pictures. http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/chapter_2/1.html

Pentagon is still hiding thousands of them along with the videos.

Re: # 379

tahmed sahib,
With all due respect to you, I think your belief in democracy is dogmatic, not pragmatic.

Democracy is not the be-all and end-all; it's supposed to serve the people to uplift them and serve their basic needs, not line the pockets of the politicians as the data shows it does in India. It requires inspirational leadership to improve society as a whole, not just once-in-five-years exercise of voting rights in a dubious process where polling booths are taken over by gangster politicians and opponents physically intimidated. It requires a spirit of democracy within parties. It requires accountability of the elected reps. Democracy is much more than elections, it's active day-to-day participation of the people in running the affairs of a country; it's rule-of-law; it require some basic level of literacy, integrity and education, not caste-based or ethnicity based voting of scoundrels into positions of power. Indian democracy fails by most of these measures.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq sahib: You are obviously not being reasonable when you ignore what is indeed a wonderful achievement of India - the conduct of peaceful elections in a vast nation comprising one-sixth of humanity and facing fundamental issues of poverty. This is just another example of the "state of denial" that Khyber talks about below that Pakistanis can ill-afford the luxury of floating on.

From the results on the ground as far as the state pf average Indian citizen is concerned, the Indian democracy appears to be a farce. Indian democracy's main value is propaganda value in the West where they (e,g. Zakaria and co) breathlessly talk about as a "stable, peaceful and prosperous" with middle class Indians presented as mouthpieces and tokens of Indian democracy.

In almost every category of human deprivation, ranging from poverty, hunger, illiteracy, poor sanitation, absent heathcare, to law and order and justice system, state of minorities, India figures among the worst, in many instances worse than Sub-saharan Africa.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#376 while there are many Pakistanis living in denial, those like Jamaat-e-Islami (who are conducting a demonstration right now against US presence in the area and against Pakistan action against the taliban dogs) are more than mere "deniars" - they are the "enemy within" Pakistan, the one that is clearly trying to pave the way for a mullah takeover of Pakistan and a destruction of its democracy.

While the real punishment for these traitors is a bullet in their heads, there is every indication that these demonstrations achieve nothing but expose their true goals before the Pakistani people. Who will no doubt kick their behinds in the next elections even harder than they did in the last.

tahmed32..Unfortunately there are many living in denial and There are many political parties today that are shedding tears over the military operation against the Taliban, despite a realisation across Pakistan that the Taliban are our enemies and must be destroyed, given that all other options have failed. But then it should not be so surprising given the history of some of these parties, which were propped up by the regime of General Zia-ul Haq, and were at the forefront of sowing the seeds of the extremism and terrorism we see today. Their hypocrisy and lies should be challenged by civil society and the media so that they may not mislead the nation.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Pakistani troops retake 'bloody intersection'
ISLAMABAD — Pakistani troops battling the Taliban have captured several points in the Swat Valley's main town, the army said Sunday, including a spot nicknamed "bloody intersection" because militants routinely dumped the mutilated bodies of their victims there.Click following link for more details.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 373..Yes thats right,zia and mushy boy stole miillions of dollars,now mushy boy wana stay there,that should be SWAT HOUSE and let IDP'S families stay there.Hypocrites like masadi and others living in state of denial on this forum.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Khyber #370: Yes indeed - perhaps we should kick Mr. Madani's "shining sun" (the rogue Musharraf) out of his lavish house at Chak Shahzad and make it Swat House for refugees.

Mr. Madani: as for your reference to my being a panjabi, that just shows your primitive mindset that can only see people through ethnic lenses. I hope your great-great-great-grandchildren evolve out of this subhuman mentality.

#368 Mr Madani - If MQM does somethign wrong (denying Pakistanis fleeing the taliban the right to find refuge in any part of Pakistan they wish), I will indeed condemn it. When MQM did something right, as in not joining in support of the Swat deal, I applauded it.

It is your own "MQM can do nothing wrong" mentality that you should re-examine.

Re: # 368,,TAHMED32 is right,IDP'S are not MUHAJIRS from india or any other country
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

It is one thing to play devil's advocate. Put forth clever arguments to shut someone up. That is all ok.

But when you start believing in your own bullshit like this MadrassaAlumnus does then the joke is on him. A la Romair with his Paki T-shirt proclamation. Since this dude is not shy about his verbal diahorrea, it will be fun to make him tapdance and eat his words. He has already taken counter positions on many many topics. Let us see how long he lasts...

SenileRacistBigot32 is so far gone that you don't need to push his buttons anymore. They are always pushed :-) I pity his family

Re: # 365
Mr.T you are reverting to your old ways of blaming MQM ? recently you had shown enlightment saying good words about Mr. Hussai. I guess that liberal state of mind is replaced with with usual punjabi ham headed ways. Only hamid is punjabi but how is not ham headed ?
May be IDPs send to India. Sindh has already too many people in Karachi, we do not need more.I read in future india will be buried in problems as water in see rises all bangala deshis and Bihari have no place to enter India as refugees.

Re: # 359 Prof R.Haq...there is news today we produced too much of wheat ( produced about 3 years needed) they do not know what to or store.May we should send to India's underwight people short of food ? It is not democracy just farce. Here Scholars like YLH have shown so many times specially with foreign references situation is bad and going to worse many ties. With army going after terror have created terror in minds of indians as their terror friends are loosing. Indian sabotage aid is going to drain. Also it must have demoralised indian army seeing army success against terror. Organization like yours need to be helped by GOP as they can spread news there of failing of india and weathering away of indian state. Good luck thanks for putting line of resistance against indian propaganda.

correction to #365 below: keep IDBs out of Sindh (not Swat).

Khyber: MQM goes back to its filthy ways - after providing some rays of hope that it had learnt something from its shameful anti-democracy stand of the past two years when it spoke out against the taliban. Now - while giving materials and goods to support IDBs, it is trying to keep out IDBs from Swat!! Thus demonstrating that mqm is yet to rise above its petty ethnic mindeset.

Re: # 349 masadi,u ever heared this persian proverb,''Dogs may bark but the caravan moves on'''...thats what u r.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 358

Riaz:

"...Why do you keep denying the fact that there is no democracy within political parties in India? ..."

Mai aapke padne ki daad deta houn' if that is what you read from what I wrote.

I only pointed that intra party leadership is not a pre-requisite of democracy. Allow me to define it. One man one vote to gather power, and distribution of power by thus elected represenative alone.

Yes election of party leadership, candidates can be manipulated and is manipulated without exception everywhere.

Re: # 359

Riaz:

"...When I trivialize my comments backed by references and data, you only make a fool of youself...."

This is quite delusional as the data you have is not the only data set in the world. BTW, Hamidm too quoted not Dalrymple but Arab historians of contemporaenous time. He gave the name of the book, and I was able to buy it on amazon.com.

RiazHaq #357

{{"There have never, I repeat never, been anything even close to Gujarat massacre of minorities or murder-rape of Orissa. Unlike India, there is no "riot-system" in Pakistan"}}

You need to compare like with like.

Pakistan, unlike India, is a country where religious minorities (Christians, Hindus, Sikhs) are hardly in a position to be assertive. First of all, they lack any strength in numbers. Secondly, they live in a confessional state; the state religion, Islam, is quite unique among major world religions in the scale and degree of vituperation its primary scripture expresses towards unbelievers of various kinds. Thirdly, the attitudes espoused in Islam have been written into Pakistani law as civic disabilities against non-Muslims. The blasphemy law is available to be used at a moment's notice as an instrument of harassment and intimidation. In brief, any Christian or Hindu with half a brain knows that the knife of Islam could be at his throat in a jiffy, his life and property forfeit if he gets into a dispute with a believer.

So you are most unlikely to encounter a Godhra-like situation where a mob of Pakistani Hindus incinerates a railway carriage carrying Muslim pilgrims. And you are not likely in Pakistan to encounter aggressive and frankly tactless large-scale Christian evangelisation of the kind that goes on in the wilds of Orissa.

You are likely to find systematic constant harassment of individual Christians and Hindus; property disputes leading to allegations of blasphemy against Holy Prophet and Majestic Quran; abduction of women and minor girls followed by amazing conversions to Islam; as well as sporadic larger-scale incidents of violence of the Sangla Hill/Shantinagar kind. This has been reported fairly extensively.

The fundamental level of tolerance of Indian society to vigorous assertion of minority religious identity and religious expression is very high. So are the sheer numbers of miorities (approx 150 million Muslims - comparable with the total population of Pakistan, perhaps 30 million Christians). This is the basic background against which any violence there must be viewed in any comparison with Islamic Pakistan.

"There have never, I repeat never, been anything even close to Gujarat massacre of minorities or murder-rape of Orissa. Unlike India, there is no "riot-system" in Pakistan,''"


Riaz ul Propaganda ji hindus in Pakistan can never 'riot' when they know they can be lynched anytime on the charges of abusing prophet........

Last time one hindu asked for a raise from a paki momeen factory owner and he was lynched......you keep hindus as dhimmi slaves in your fields and zamidaris at subsistence levels only..........it is time hindus revolted against them....

Re: # 339
Anil,
When I trivialize my comments backed by references and data, you only make a fool of youself. As to hamidm as a reference, you and I bothy know hamidm is no historian. I suggesed looking at Dalrymple's story of Xanadu. Damrymple is a recognized historian who has done the necessary research.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 337
Anil,
Why do you keep denying the fact that there is no democracy within political parties in India? I thunk you need to study this topic before continuing this discussion. As to Clinton vs Obama, it was a hard-fought primary in which most of the key party leaders backed Clinton. Again, to deny this is to deny the obvious.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 338

Most of the minority Hindus in Pakistan lives in Bangladesh with some in Sind after partition. Thee continues to be a fairly significant population of several million Hindus in Sind , with many constituencies such as Tharparkar dominated by them. In fact, I remember having Hindu classmates and teachers in the schools and colleges I attended. In addition to Hindus, I had many Christian and Parsee friends. I continue to be in touch with some of them.

There have never, I repeat never, been anything even close to Gujarat massacre of minorities or murder-rape of Orissa. Unlike India, there is no "riot-system" in Pakistan, according to U of Washington's Paul Brass who has researched pogroms and genocides.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 353

Hasho:

"...Gather your thoughts, you time and again make contradictory statements..."

My thoughts are quite consistent. I would not comment on those whose are opportunistic. My essay about this amalgam is very old, in fact older than the age of many who are at Chowk.

I am surprised that you cannot understand the meaning of my living example. I wish Akbar and Jodha were living, but you could not produce such longivity drug. I know you are not naive.

Hasho:

Please either have an interesting debate or just keep your old commitment.

Here Pakistanis come and talk about "slave mentality" of hindus. I am helping you and other such Pakistanis to learn reality, not rehtorics. The ground reality in India despite violence, amalgam still remains. Hindustva hatred could not wipe out, neither did Pakistani propoganda.

If you have points to counter to my point, then please state. Such trivialities "now" this, earlier that please save them for others. There is no need for you to waste with me.

I am looking as amalgam that it produced as Indian Victory
---
So it is now an amalgam, after denying that you even made that point just ten minutes ago.

I doubt that I have interest in debating the issue with someone who is so forgetful.

"living example is that you are a Muslim and I am not. This drowning, this submerge was broken by the creation of Pakistan."

So if the "drowing" or the "submerge" did not take place in the 800 years, how was that going to take place in the sixty years after the independence?

Gather your thoughts, you time and again make contradictory statements.

Hasho:

I am looking as amalgam that it produced as Indian Victory. Yes, do you have problem with this view, then let me hear your points.

Masadi:

Just keep your ignorance to yourself. With faster changes, new dynamics get created at faster space to not let your 7th century to Mills ranting. Indian pot has variety that no one, from your type to right winge hinduvta, can change. With faster changes that are possible dynamics of destruction with out creation cannot survive for too long. Hence hatered cannot have the time to spread.

Learn it Masadi. There is a lot more in the world to know than you know.

"You are wrong in looking of Islam in India in terms of "Indian Victory" or loss."

It is not me, it is you who is looking at that as an Indian victory. Read what I quoted from your post on my previous post. Btw, you make that point on every other post so read all previous posts too. I don't know may be it hard for you believe in a point you made yourself.

Anil writes "60 years is too small a period in 1,000 year history..."

Not when greater change has occurred in those 60 years compared to the past 1000, and if you're so grateful might we ask you to put your money where your mouth is and return to India rather than brag about the Ivy league education your daughter got or HBS that you attended....with an email to match.....

TNITC masadi

Re: # 340

Hasho:

You are wrong in looking of Islam in India in terms of "Indian Victory" or loss. If anything I would call it being in India, an Indian victory. It added new dimensions to India, but it could not conquer India, living example is that you are a Muslim and I am not. This drowning, this submerge was broken by the creation of Pakistan.

60 years is too small a period in 1,000 year history. Besides, India still has the largest population of muslims in the sub continent to benefit from it, despite what you and right wing hindu fanatics say or shout. Neither have ability to change, and I thank God, Allah and Bhagwan for it.

I see that you also post your stupid questions chappati Mystery site too. I guess that is your habit. The best thing is to read about the issues and then post your comments. No one wants to take you to school here.

So get lost.

Re: # 344

Its not a stupid question. Its a valid question - and I genuinely don't know the exact answer.

Thanks for the help anyway.

Dude man, you're making a fool of yourself. You asked the question because you assumed that Pakistan has got rid of its minorities, which is not the case. A few years back the Christian evangelicals were claiming that they had converted 10% of the Pakistani population to Christindom. How's that for minority growth?

TNITC masadi

Don't have stats? Then don't ask stupid questions. It seems to me that you are so stupid that you will not get this simple request.

Re: # 342

Hasho - I don't have any stats. That is the reason I asked the question..duh!

Dudi bachay,
No, I will not provide the answer, though I can very easily do that, until you back up the claim in your question.
So where are the stats that prove that millions of Hindus were killed in the current Pakistan after 1948?

Re: # 338

I just asked a question and you asked me a rhetorical question in return. Do you have the answer to it or not?

"Complete conquor of Iran and others, and inability to repeat the same in India is for all of us to see even now."

Do you mean to say since what Arabs did in Fars, should have been repeated by the persian/Pathans/ and other central Asians in India to make the point that Islamic warriors were equally barbaric, despite the differences in National origin?

Because the persian/Pathans/ and other central Asians were less barbaric, somehow that becomes an Indian victory, is that right?

Riaz:

You seem to be searching for your happiness and satisfaction on the railroad tracks in Mumbai, when you should be looking for in the pillars of Karachi Stock Exchange, or corridors of Islamabad. And how to make it all happen, you have experience under your belt to make it happen. I know you could call it pedantic, but it will remain the truth. Seemingly, Arjun's of the world get you very easily.

#335 Posted by dude40000 on May 23, 2009 12:07:28 pm
Re: # 334
" What is the percentage of minority population in Pakistan now and what was it in 1948?"

Another one of those Bharatrakshisk.net.

In fact it has been proven beyond any doubt that there is no significant change in Minority population in the current Pakistan after 1948 on this site many times over.

Do you have some stats to backup your claim that millions in minority, specifically hindu, just disappeared in the dust after 1948?

Re: # 328

Riaz:

No one other than Bill Clinton spoke publicly how Obama got support from democratic machinery. Besides my counter point was to trashing you give to "however" defective Indian democracy, as if others are so pure and doodh ki dhooli. Politics is messy everywhere, and it is messier in India.

You rely on meaningless macro ecnomic and other indictors, while in developing economies and societies micro-level signs are more important. These micro show who and how each brick is getting laid, macro makes sense when the building is ready.

Riaz:

Question of tolerance or intolerance of Islamic warrior is a discussion you should have with Hamidm and not me. Complete conquor of Iran and others, and inability to repeat the same in India is for all of us to see even now.

My point is only about India, even in that Today's India. I am quite bullish about it, I hope you can be equally bullish about your country Today's Pakistan, then you would not waste time in reacting to right wing hindus here.

Re: # 334

Hilarious!

Riaz - What is the percentage of minority population in Pakistan now and what was it in 1948?

Re: # 325

History of the world tells us that Muslims victors/rulers have always behaved differently than others. British historian Willian Dalymple explains how he started writing "Xanadu" to document the alleged Muslim atrocities against non-Muslims but when he did the research he ended up writing about how tolerant Muslims were to the vanquished.

The greatest example of Muslim tolerance can be found in how Muslims well treated Christians and allowed Jews to return to Jerusalem after taking the city twice in the history...first under Omar and then under Saladdin.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

We dislike begging. But we dislike it only at the national level. At the international level we love begging like mad. At the international level we beg like a baby begging for a nipple. What we have so far got through our international begging is a sacred secret. What our street beggars must be thinking about our bank-beggars and our international begging, one just shudders to imagine.
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-onl ine/Opinions/Columns/13-Jun-2008/Begging-or-selfkilling

Re: # 326

Riaz you are convinently ignoring the facts. 80% of Indians voted for secular parties. Even in Delhi - 66% of population voted for secular parties.

Data does not lie...

http://www.eciresults.nic.in/frmPercentVotesPartyWiseChart.aspx

sala 329 ka story Mingora ka battles per tha..chowk saftwhare ne kha liya

link yahaan heyy

http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Po litics/24-May-2009/Fierce-street-battles-as-troops-enter-Mingora

Story of Child begging in Pakistan

Day by Day increasing Child labour as well as child begging in Pakistan. This is a big question for all over world as well as Pakistan government. No any steps are taken by Govt for Child Education. Pakistani Teachers also begging for increasing Salaries

http://videos.desishock.net/3629/Story-of-Child-begging-in-Pakistan

sala phikar naut Riaz haq , Pakistan banega Wahhabi Talibanistan

Re: # 324

I think you are denying reality here. Everyone knows the machine politics favored Clinton. Only after the primary votes came in that the calculus changed and Democrats lined up.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

sala phikar not Riaz Haq_merra hain Esq sahib.
Our Pakistan Studies text book will soon sala become the only history we will all study.

tu ne sahee, identify kiya yeah devious hunddod ko...

challo, ek aadh peg ho jaiye

Re: # 319

If you look at the detailed breakdown of votes for Obama, you'll find that the majority of whites voted for McCain. But Obama won just enough white vote along with overwhelming majority of non-white vote to get elected.

Now I don't know for sure the detailed breakdown of Congress votes, but my guess is that just enough of the middle class vote and overwhelming majority of the poor led to Congress victory. When you talk about cities, don;t forget the urban poor who clean the houses of the middle class folks and live in shanties close to the high-rises in the same proximity.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 321

Riaz:

History of India also tells you that not all became Muslim. I had called it that Islam drowned here. All other places its success was 100%. This should tell you something too, as it tell me.

Riaz:

Without a Obama had the support of the machinery. Just look at the endorsements one after the another. He, Michelle and kids were picture perfect for democrats to project, than anyone in the oppostion inside and outside the democratic parties.

Re: # 313

Riaz:

"...several "enlightened middle class" California Hindu groups..."

I probably am more knowlegdeable on it than you. To be balanced, and not alarmist please write if they succeeded or not. Success is all that matters in democracy, rest noise, or opposition at its best.

Re: # 320

Do you think Obama won the primary because of the support of Democratic machine? Or did he win in spite of it?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 315

History is filled with examples of a narrow band of fanatics getting control of the government, and change the course of history for the worse. I suggest you listen to a lecture a few years ago by Salman Rushdie after the release of "Moore's Last Sigh". In the lecture, he eloquently described how a Catholic fanatics seized Spain from a very tolerant and diverse rulers (described by Aba Eban as a Golden Era for Jews) and turned it into a fanatical empire in 1492. What followed was widespread persecution of Muslims and Jews by Torquemada in the Spanish Inquisition, Columbus's voyage to America and the brutal enslavement and destruction of native Americans, Vasco da Gama's "discovery" of India in 1497, and later a wave of European colonization of Asia, Africa and America.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 314

Riaz:

Please study party organizations (for democrats it is called machinery for a reason), you would find these purveyors of power in demcracy are ver undemocratic internally. Internal power structure is true in the U.K. also.

It is so easy to come up with simple slogans.

Re: # 318

Another interesting thing to note is - 58% people in Delhi voted for Congress. Amazing...

Re: # 317

When selecting a State choose "ALL" on this page and then you see All India results:

http://www.eciresults.nic.in/frmPercentVotesPartyWiseChart.aspx

Re: # 316

Totally agree with you Anil. In fact not only democracy, secularism is also quite deeply entrenched. And these election results prove it once again.

Checkout the graphic on Electiion commission's website at:

http://www.eciresults.nic.in/frmPercentVotesPartyWiseChart.aspx

BJP's voting percentage is only 18%. Add Shiv Sena to the tally, that;s another 1-2%. Rest 80% of the population voted for secular parties.

Riaz:

I bewilder and admire your attempts to give simplistic reasons, "those who do not go to schools" vote Congress. Take it as reality that India is too deep and diverse. Shiv Sena still cannot influence outside Mumbai. BJP lost in Delhi (a stronghold for them), BJP and Congress lost to Mayawati (a coalition of caste, dalits, and Muslims).

Evolution of Indian democracy is well entrenched.

Riaz:

I am not trying to turn a blind eye toward right wing extremism in India. An alarmist approach only adds fuel to the fire. This fire cannot be sustained in any other way. India is too big and too deep for these trouble makers.

Re: # 303
Dost,
I realize that. The truth about Muslim vote in India is somewhat similar to the Black vote in US. In the US primaries (which do not matter within India's internally undemocratic parties), Black vote does matter. But in the general elections, neither have much choice. Both are taken for granted.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

A few years ago, several "enlightened middle class" California Hindu groups made an unsuccessful effort to distort history books in California.

You can read about it at: http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/textbook/TextbookEdits.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 310
I think you are trying a blind eye to a fundamental rightward anti-Muslim shift in India's middle class that vote in large numbers for BJP and their allies. Those who do not attend school in India vote more often for Congress and are less bigoted against Muslims because they have not been indoctrinated by the Indian education system.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here are some excerpts from Gujarat textbooks promoting an association in young minds between Islam and terrorism:

*Gujarat is a border state. Its land and sea boundaries touch the boundaries of Pakistan which is like a den of terrorism. Under such circumstances, it is absolutely necessary for us to understand the effects of terrorism and the role of citizens in the fight against it

*If every countryman becomes an ideal citizen and develops patriotism, the National Population Policy can definitely be achieved

*When people used to meet earlier, they wished each other saying Ram Ram and by shaking hands. Today, people enjoy their meeting by speaking Namaste. Is it not a change?

*Making full use of Muslim fanaticism, Osama Bin Laden organized die-hard Muslims and founded the International Jihad Organization in the name of the Jehedi movement*
[Excerpted from Social Science textbooks, standard nine (2005) and standard eight (2004)

Source: http://www.indiatogether.org/2007/feb/edu-gujtexts.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

I am very aware of what BJP (Joshi) tried to do, and would try to do if gets in power again. The difference is such people, unlike your country do not stay in power too long to undo and make so huge a difference to convert over 1 billion people to their belief. Islam could not do it, with all its might, and inducement. These guys cannot do it either.

Tahmed sahib:

Please do not put your words in my mouth. I have not said what you have written.

Please read it again. Vote Banks are giving collective power to individuals much like unions do. This is what I have said. If you would like we can discuss it further.

Regarding various divides problem in India did not start with teaching K for Kafir. Manto and I dicussed recently in person, my views about it. Many of these divides are as if they are in Indian DNA. They are that natural.

Re: # 305
anil,
I guess you are not aware of the nation-wide efforts in India to distort/sanitize Indian history textbooks to change or remove references to the positive Muslim influences in India.

You should see the Hoodbhoy video again that shows an Indian scholar discuss this issue. Also read the following.

Here are some excerpts from "HISTORY TEXTBOOKS IN INDIA : NARRATIVES OF RELIGIOUS NATIONALISM" by K.N.PANIKKAR:


The idea of India being a Hindu civilisational state runs through all the texts, either directly expressed or indirectly suggested. The question of the indigenous origin of Aryans and the identity of Harappan civilization with the Vedic society has some bearing on this issue. The former is quite central to the fundamentalist agenda of claiming the nation as Hindu, as the migration theory would deprive the Hindus of indigenous lineage. Therefore, against the widely held scholarly opinion Aryans are credited with indigenous origins, subscribing in the bargain to the colonial view of Aryan race. In the former case the textbooks put forward the view that the Aryans were indigenous to India and that the opinion widely held by scholars about their migration dismissed as inconsequential. In defense of indigenous origin no substantial evidence is adduced, except negative reasoning. It is asserted that the ‘the oldest surviving records of the Aryans, the Rig Veda, does not give even an inkling of any migration. It does not have any knowledge even of the geography beyond the known boundaries of Ancient India.’ It further says: ‘Many scholars think that the Aryans were originally inhabitants of India and did not come from outside. It has been argued by such scholars that there is no archeological or biological evidence, which could establish the arrival of any new people from outside between 5000 B.C and 800 B.C. This means that if at all there was any migration of Aryans or for that matter of any other people in India, it may have taken place at least eight or nine thousand years ago or after 800 B.C. to both of which there is no evidence. Further, the skeletal remains found from various Harappan sites resemble the skeletons of the modern population of the same geographical area.’

Exclusion as a strategy of denial of history is most effectively practiced in the case of architecture and religion. Very few fields of cultural production have been more creative and innovative than architecture, as it developed during the Sultanate and Mughal periods. The blending of the Islamic and Hindu traditions heralded new styles in conception and execution. The textbook on medieval history turns a blind eye to this significant tendency in the cultural history of India. While the Islamic character of medieval architecture is emphasised the syncretic tendency, which developed during this period, as a result of the coming together of two different systems does not find any mention. Some of the magnificent buildings resulting from this interaction have been completely ignored, except Man Mandir built by Man Singh, the ruler of Gwalior, in the sixteenth century. But the influence it exercised over the Mughal architecture, which would highlight the procees of cultural synthesis, finds no place. Katherene B. Asher observes: ‘Man Mandir is rightly regarded as having influenced Akbar in the design of his own palaces. Its exterior influenced the inlaid mosaic façade of the Delhi gate in Akbar’s Agra fort, the interior of this palace had an even greater impact on Akbar’s architecture. The main body of the palace consists of a series of small connecting courtyards around whose perimeter are galleries containing rooms. These rooms are never arcuated, but have essentially flat roofs, a type that reappears in Akbar’s Agra and Fatehpur Sikri palaces.’ Similarly Islamic architecture had exerted decisive influence over the buildings constructed by Hindu rulers.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

anil #306 i am so glad to learn that indians are free of the hindu/muslim divide. This is apparent from the surprisingly non-communal posts written by Indians on chowk. Do they teach this respect for all faiths in India in kindergarten, or is it another fine quality that Indians are born with?

Re: # 291

Romair:

To really understand the plays in Indian politics, you may like to consider the dynamics as it get played out. Parties at both extreme ends of the spectrum lost. Modi’s share of votes went down, Communist lost in West Bengal. Power of vote banks (regional or religious) went up. Economic and foreign ground there is very little difference between either who comes to power.

This is a major achievement of legislative side of the institution. Thanks to T.N. Sheshan of election commission. In my opinion Mayawati who awakened minority voters, and DMK in Tamilnadu who brought regional vote banks played pioneers.

Influence of Sonia Gandhi and Man Mohan Singh’s PM demonstrate maturing of executive side. Thank in large part to Sonia Gandhi.

Despite active judiciary, judiciary is still not transparent. It acts only when there is influence otherwise it grinds at pace slower than the snail. So influence peddling affects it big time.

Center is too different now to take a top down view of BJP vs Congress. BJP has no leadership less than 70 years old. These two are now “frameworks� and not parties any longer. Congress has done a good job of understanding this “framework�. BJP needs to understand it too. This means they cannot go alone. After India shining they tried to go alone and tried to get into south’s regional voting blocks. They had limited success in Karnataka. They ended up helping minority vote banks to get organized. This in my opinion is good. However, what is bad is if in the process of reinventing BJP framework, if there is no alternative, then single framework rule will emerge, which in my view will defeat what has been accomplish in evolving two party system in 90s.

Riaz:

"... In spite of the secular democratic constitution, the ghost of about a thousand years of Muslim rule continues to haunt Hindu's view of themselves..."

I have this debate with Pakistanis. I can assure you, until I left India and met the first Pakistani and had a debate, I did not even know of this issue.

Pakistanis seem to be living in Hindu / Muslim divide even after 60 years (three generation) of being a country. Your statement and those who make statements in 2009 show that. Put vote bank and you will this in Indian context. Yes, in the spectrum of Indian opinion there may be some who believe in this ghost. This ghost is not present when Sonia Gandhi is the most influential woman, when Man Mohan Singh is the prime minister.

It is good to see your neighbor with a new set of glasses.

Raiz:

It is easy to come up with eye popping slogans like:

"...Most Indians vote their caste, rather than cast their votes..."

It shows your ignorance of however defective Indian democracy. In case you are not aware 75% of seats in British, Canadian and the U.S. democracies are also "safe" seats. Will care to explain your understanding of "safe" and point for my education the difference between "safe" seats and "vote banks" in Indian context.

You need to go beyond your mypoic view about "however" defective Indian democracy. It gives a voice. Due to these vote banks, there is devolution of power, when you add "regional blocks" as well. It is through these vote banks, no one can get elected without "Muslim Vote Bank" support in Bihar and the U.P.

Please get some facts. You might discover, the vote banks are like "unions" for collective bargaining to get their share of pie. In 750 million electorate (5 times the entire population of your country), there is no single science or single mathematics on accumulation or distribution of power through elections. This "vote bank" is effective, it is practiced in Israel also.

Riaz:

A significant fact that most people ignore is the importance of Muslim votes. It is crucial in more than 150 seats, which means that the BJP has to dilute its agenda or else it is contesting only for 375 seats out of 540.

Re: # 291

There are a several other points about the complex Indian psyche that should be mentioned here:

1. Most Indians vote their caste, rather than cast their votes.

2. In spite of the secular democratic constitution, the ghost of about a thousand years of Muslim rule continues to haunt Hindu's view of themselves.

3. Regional/ethnic/caste affiliations usually trump Indian nationalism in most parts of India.

Here is how Stephen Cohen of Brookings recently described Indian search for identity:

In their quest for an identity, some Indians tried to replicate Pakistan’s failure by manufacturing a “Hindu� Indian identity—the so-called Hindutva movement. But there is no all-Indian Hindu identity—India is riven by caste and linguistic differences, and Aishwarya Rai and Sachin Tendulkar are more relevant rallying points for more Indians than any Hindu caste or sect, let alone the Sanskritized Hindi that is officially promulgated.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

bulleya:

I think that it would be difficult for the BJP to deduce from the elections that the development agenda does not pay; they did well in Madhya Pradesh, Chhatisgarh and Bihar where their governments have embraced agenda for inclusive development; Modi also claimed to have not neglected rural Gujarat. BJP has also done well in Karnataka but the Party just got into power there a few months ago and is still glowing in that victory.

It is difficult to draw a general conclusion from the elections but if I were to draw one conclusion, it would be that people vote on a regional basis and the benefit of good governance at the state level is reflected in the results for the national parliament also, the opposite is true as well, as was shown in Rajasthan, U.P, Punjab, Kerala and West Bengal.

bulleya#291:

You make several points which should probably be addressed in an article by itself (hint! hint!)and I do not agree with all of them but partly agree with your conclusion, namely:

"......so bjp needs to push a proud hindu identity, to the point of being communalistic (but not in the form of pogroms).....it needs to force a society which is proud of its historical hinduism and allow it to be the indentity of india.....an india that allows minorities to live there comfortably, as long as they don't try to get into india's hindu identity (basically a tnt; i.e. how pakistan defines itself in light of islam)...."

The problem, however, is that this hindu identity is restricted only to the small upwardly mobile middle class (with which you interact mostly both here and in Bangalore). Generally speaking, hindus do not take their religious identity as seriously as their other identities, such as those based on caste, language or ethnicity, unless an emotional issue such as Ram Mandir. However, such emotional unity, even if achieved, is negative and can only last for a very short period.

dude: you are obviously an ISI agent - claiming that hindus had anything to do with LTTE!! It is time you paki terrorists stopped making such preposterous claims.

PS: and your applauding the pakistan army in #298 proves that you are a pakistani spy. I bet you applaud the Pakistan cricket team too in private, while eating beaf-burgers and with a picture of Jinnah hanging from the wall.

Re: # 297

http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=78441

Seems Pak army is doing street fighting in Mingroa now.

Good luck Pak Army!

Never ever thought, I would say this sentence.

Re: # 296

Wrong again - cadres of LTTE are both Hindus and Christians.

#295 Exactly my point!! Hindus are incapable of doing anything less than 100% clean and virtuous!! It is these monotheistic types (christians, muslas) who are the problem!!

Re: # 294
Tahmed - Small correction. LTTE as a terrorist organization is not based on relegion but ethnicity. Most of its top cadres are Tamil Christians.

RiazHaq #290 Actually the LTTE were ISI agents. Everyone knows that hindus dont do suicide bombings. I dont know why Pakistanis like you spread such malicious rumors!! Next you will be claiming that hindus dont steal, cannot tell a lie, and do not walk on air!!

bulleya #191 "i probably know about as much about india and indians, as any pakistan can know"

India-Expert Bulleya - your immense Knowledge of India and Indians is like a vast ocean. I understand if this knowledge was downloaded on computer disks, they would reach all the way to the moon - and back!! Amazing!!

Re: # 291

Re: # 291
bulleya - Generally speaking you have done a good analysis of the Indian political situation for a Pakistani. Though its much more complex than you make it sound.

I disagree with your description of pakistani hating/muslim hating indians though. Pakistani hating and muslim hating Indians can't be equated and demarcated by a slash. Many of Congress supporters are Pakistan haters (because they see Pakistan as sponsoring terrorists) but they are not Muslim haters at all.

dost-mittar/anil#: "The BJP also has to decide if it wants to be a Hindu communal party or a right wing mainstream nationalist party."

....not that i know the details of indian politics, but i probably know about as much about india and indians, as any pakistan can know.....i see the following:

.....congress probably falls into the mainstream central view of india....i.e. all things even, and if every party performs evenly economically, then they have the largest vote bank....the more any party moves towards the middle, the more they start playing in congress's arena, and hence they will lose out to congress....so any party that wants to take on the congress, has to offer either of the following three:

1. it has to, somehow or the other become a better representative, at the national level, of the centrist politics of india than the congress

2. it has to offer a better economic model than the congress - either from the socialist/communist side (communist parties), or from the capitalist side (bjp)

3. it has to move the social debate, from the center towards an extreme, and gain enough support their to counter congress

.....i think it is impossible for bjp (or any other party) to do 1.......they will infact die out if they do that, because that is congress' territory

....i think 2 was possible, and bjp did that for a while.....congress has traditionally had very weak economic growth rates (far lower than pakistan's)......however, over the past 15 years, congress has adjusted and, now, seem to be able to go toe-to-toe with bjp; or even better.....in fact, congress engineered much of india's economic turnaround.....

.....this leaves bjp, only, with option 3......so this is what they would need to do.....this is what they did to get to a stage where they actually started defeating congress....

......i think indians are becoming quite nationalistic....overly so, in my opinion......there is a psychological stigma of being ruled for 1000 years, that needs to be overcome.....which is resulting in being overly nationalistic......

at the heart of this is hinduism.....the only common factor that binds all the provinces/states in india....while pathans may have ruled india, and there were a lot of hindu pathans also, this is still viewed as muslims ruling hindus by indians (and by muslims also).....

.....this is also why i feel pakistanis are not too historically nationalistic.....i.e. they feel they were the ruling class, as muslims (though nearly all of them are descendants of hindus, who were ruled, themselves)....

......this up and coming, economically rising, nationalistic young hindu, who wants the history righted, and wants india to be proud in defining itself in its hinduism (much like pakistan does in its islamism), without the social shackles of secularism, which he feels overly caters to muslims, is the future of bjp.......

....i see so many such indians in IT, business etc.....specifically in the under 30 range.....interestingly the two areas where bjp wins Gujrat/Karnataka are also amongst the most int'lnally integrated; one is a business center, the other the IT center.....

....i think where the bjp overdid it was on the violently communalistic side......politically, it was beneficial for bjp to kill muslims, if india was stuck only in local politics.....this would increase their vote bank.....but i think indians have realized that internationally, this is a huge liability.....having modi as a pm, who is an int'lly condemned terrorrist, up there with baitullah mehsud will not be wise....even if, unlike mehsud, he has a much larger votebase....

.......so bjp needs to push a proud hindu identity, to the point of being communalistic (but not in the form of pogroms).....it needs to force a society which is proud of its historical hinduism and allow it to be the indentity of india.....an india that allows minorities to live there comfortably, as long as they don't try to get into india's hindu identity (basically a tnt; i.e. how pakistan defines itself in light of islam)....

and of course, economic growth......

i think bjp's centrist voter is someone like stuka at one end and eklavya at the other.....generally reasonable people, who want a proud hindu identity for india.....everyone to the right of them, like the pakistani hating/muslim hating indians on this site are its right of center core gropu.....this later group will always vote bjp, anyways.......however, there aren't enough such communalistic voters, to defeat congress......so more stukas and eklayvas need to be recruited as party members.....

so bjp should push the commualism, hindu nationalism, anti-secularism, while continuing with economic growth......without the pogrom type violence......and win on point 3.......

Re: # 277

LTTE terrorists' main contribution to the world of terror is their invention of the dreaded explosives belt that unleashed the scourge of world-wide suicide bombings.
Initially trained and supported by Raw, the Indian intelligence agency, in the 1980s, the Tamil Tigers met their bloody end at the hands of Lankan military using arms manufactured and supplied by Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

shahji#288:

Not just Priyanka, but Bollywood is full of Khatris like Kapoors, Khannas, Mehras, Ahujas, Tandons, Bedis, etc. Hik itt puttso, tay kayee nikalsan!

Re: # 193

Dost Mittar

Thank you dear, but you forgot to mention Pryanka Choprha (should rightly be called 'Choprhi')who is very shining these days. She also seems to be a Pothwaran Khatraain, eh.

Dudi,

A question in the open forum is for anyone to answer. Start a private chatroom, if you looking to exchnage private message.

Pata nahin kidhar say gadhay moonh utha kay aata hain.

Re: # 285

Hasho - the question wasn't addressed to you. Thanks but no thanks.

#284 Posted by dude40000
Honestly speaking, I would like to get convinced that Pak populace is against Taliban. But when I see this and see the IRI survey -
---
Dudeth, You better stay confused because that is how you are. anyway no one gives a damn whether you are convinced or not.

Re: # 219

Tahmed - look at this video dated 21-May. And you say the country is unanimous against Taliban? And these are educated students....quite a divided lot wouldn't you say.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/5127068/13587038

Honestly speaking, I would like to get convinced that Pak populace is against Taliban. But when I see this and see the IRI survey - I get confused. Do you have any data points to claim this.....

Thanks,I would not mind communists.




http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Khyber, you're wrongly informed, neither the Congress nor the BJP.

Spy...what do you think about this election victory by congress,seems like congress don't have to depend on allies as it got 205 seats,there are reports that communists and BJP has queued up to be a Congress ally,SO WHAT DO YOU THINK CONGRESS WILL PICK Communists or BJB?

Re: # 275 khyber, I agree the law enforcing agencies clearly failed in protecting the nuns in the Orrisa case. It is no brainer that in most of the similar situations the law enforcing agencies play (either act or not act) due to political considerations, which is deplorable.

However such failures are being noted in the Indian society and more and more people are against such acts. Naveen Patnaik (Biju Janta Dal) ditched BJP in orrisa and won handsomely for the 3rd time in the recent Assembly elections. Although it is not a direct punishment to the perpators in the nuns rape case, but indirectly people have in a way given their mandate against such parties(BJP) / ideas. I hope the BJD now reopens the Nuns case and do a fair investigation and punish the guilty. Also note the law is catching up with Narendra Modi in Gujrat.

But there is also the other side of the Indian secular forces and Indian secular common man. They have all conveniently forgotten the plight of the lakhs of the Kashmiri Pandits who were forced out of the Kshmir valley by the Pak / local-muslim militants. While it is a fashion to claim secular by raking up the Orisa nuns case and Gujrat muslim case, but nobody talks about the Kashmiri Pandits. Solving/punishing Orrisa and Gujrat cases increases Indian secular credentials in muslim and christian countries, but no such gains from solving Kashmiri Pandits case.

#277 by KHYBER

India helped Tamil Tigers of sri lanka as they helped Mujib of Bangladesh.

So what's wrong with it? Didn't Pakistan help the Khalistanis? Isn't Pakistan helping Kashmiri terrorists even as we speak?

#277 by KHYBER

India helped Tamil Tigers of sri lanka as they helped Mujib of Bangladesh.

So what's wrong with it? Didn't Pakistan help the Khalistanis? Isn't Pakistan helping Kashmiri terrorists even as we speak?

Re: # 271...India helped Tamil Tigers of sri lanka as they helped Mujib of Bangladesh.

Re: # 182 tahmed32: "Believe you? Sri Ram Logic (SRL) in action!!"

So you are still stuck at the same place. Looks like I have to give you some more quizzes to improve.

1. Somalia is one of the most dangerous / failed countries in the world, and its sea pirates are a big nuisance to the sea trade on the East African coast.

2. The Japanese are a very hard working nation and they rebuild themselves after the WWII.

What do you conclude from these statements as my opinion, For or Against.

I hope the Sri Ram Logic (SRL) enlightens you after solving this.

Re: # 273..SPY...Indian Police and so called secular indian regime never punish those hindu Taliban,in Orrisa when hindu fanatics were raping christen girls,destroying churches and killing innocent christens police just watched and did nohing,how many people were arrested and punished by secular shinning indian law???

Re: # 181 sri ram bhakt tahmed32:

"I see. Just as the population of Mumbai should be ashamed of letting the attack happen. No wait, that was Pakistan's problem too. Sri Ram logic in action!!"

You are making progress. Apart from name calling which you only started, I fully agree with your post, and you are on target on both the points (Mumbai and Pakistan). Regarding mumbai, I would include the Indian government, the security forces and the common Indians also.

Re: # 187, #184 Khyber: I am very much opposed to the VHP, SIMI and any other orgaization that impose their extremist views on the fellow Indians. I am opposed to all the crimes that happened in Orrisa, Gujrat, Kashmir or anywhere in India in the name of religion or against members of a perticular religion, and wish that the law must punish the guilty.

Re: # 260
"I have been wrong to expect any better from you, because you come from a culture built on the ------------------------- all of these horrible things as normal do not have any sense of decency to be even considered average human beings."

You are basically a Hindu-turned-Muslim-turned-Pakistani so you belong to the same culture so no need to be so hoity-toity. Remain on mother earth

Riaz Haq, I see you are not going to admit that Bengali Hindus were targeted and you are going to call people who say they were targeted names. That is your choice. Not to take someone who behaves in that manner seriously is mine.

Dostmittar, it is possible to rig those elections, why not? I don't understand what makes EVM rigging-proof.

#267 Posted by RiazHaq

madrassa Alumnus,

Is this why Bangladeshi muslims keep pouring into india by the thousands? Is this why Zoroastrians fled for their lives from Islam-invaded Persia to take shelter in India? Is this why jews fled religious persecution to India? Is this why Hindus have to live "under the protection of local tribes" in Baluchistan? Is this why the number of Hindus keep decreasing in Pakistan?

As I have mentioned many times before, the best way to prevent the Gujarat riots was to NOT burn down 90+ Hindu men, women and little children alive.

Re: # 266.Comrade Masadi welcome back!!!!!!!!

Here's an excerpt about India's "institutionalized riot system" by a U of Washington researcher Paul Brass:

In my work on India, I have argued that what are labeled Hindu-Muslim riots have, more often than not, been turned into pogroms and massacres of Muslims, in which few Hindus are killed. In fact, in sites of endemic rioting, there exist what I have called “institutionalized riot systems,� in which the organizations of militant Hindu nationalism
are deeply implicated. I believe that such riot systems exist and have existed in many other places in the world, at least for the past two centuries, including in Russia, other parts of Europe, and the United States.

Source: http://faculty.washington.edu/brass/Ripogen.pdf
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here is something for the sellouts to dwell on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKAxnB6Ap4o&feature=related


and tahmed, hamid and the rest of the peons of the West wherever the hell you are out there.....(the speech fills in the blanks, pay close attention)....and chowkstaff....you're building a rat ship here.......what a sham, what kind of a show are you putting on here...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 264 also let me add something else in this ad...girl and her parents MUST agree to have girl's abortion if girl gets pregnant and we find out baby girl is coming to our home.

Re: # 251...Indians used to have marriage ADS for doctors and engineers now they have ads like this..
Young indian guy from delhi,works at computer lab,makes good money,looking for fair color high cast hindu girl.
indian marriage center.

Babri mosque is one out of millions in India that Hindus have had an issue over since at least 1850. Tearing a building down hardly compares with the 3 million killed in Bangladesh by your rapist army. Besides, according to the following reports, more than a 1000 temples were demolished or damaged all over Pakistan in the wake of that one mosque being brought down:

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1068245

This BBC report by a muslim and pakistani says "dozens" of temples were demolished in the wake of Babri:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4597113.stm

So ulfaq is wrong on all counts; more blood and destruction is on your hands then anyone else.

Similarly, the Gujarat riots that killed 2000 people included several hundred hindus as well. Even if 2000 muslims were killed, this pales in comparison to the 3 million you killed in 1971. It pales in comparison to the tens of thousands of dead in Baluchistan. And who knows what the body count is in the latest drama being staged in Swat. The fact is that in India these are aberations, whereas in Pakistan it's a way of life. Esepcially the reduction of the hindu and sikh popluation from being 23% to less than 2%. That speaks for itself.

Re: # 260

Riaz:

What you have written is not "harping", correct?

Re: # 259

Jang - I disagree again. Sri ram though originally a hindu construct has transcended barriers. I feel equally good about Sri Ram as I feel for wahe guru or for oh...jeez. And I think many urbane Indians do.

So accept it - religion in India has become total khichdi. And I love that.

To: The Hindustani Band of Bigots on Chowk:

You have either continued to harp on the horrible events of 1971, which I have already acknowledged as a shameful chapter in Pakistan's history, or some of you have engaged in personal abuse and cheap shots, rather than responding to three very specific questions I posed to you.

There is absolutely no expression of regret or shame on more recent events in India like the wanton destruction of Babri Masjid, or the mass murder of Gujarati Muslims, or the murder-rape-displacement of Christians in Orissa.

I have been wrong to expect any better from you, because you come from a culture built on the foundation of a caste system that legitimizes abuse and exploitation of your fellow human beings. You belong to a country where 2.1 million children under the age of 5 dies each year because of poor sanitation, 43% of the children suffer from chronic hunger, you have 5m cases of rape and other violent crimes, there are 32000+ reported murder each year, 153 criminals and thugs get elected to your legislature...and the list goes on and on. Any people who take all of these horrible things as normal do not have any sense of decency to be even considered average human beings.

You know who are! I expect nothing better from you than what I have already seen here on Chowk.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

also i got a little confused by his side-kick using the gali prefix of sri ram to address various interactors..

i dont know man..i think the mirchi is meant for hindoos...not poor minorities of bharatistan

i thought his main gripe is how "india" treats its minorities..the india he talks of is the majority hindoo no?

anyways..glad you acknowledge the mirchi.

Re: # 256

Jang - I disagree. For me, he put the mirchi to Indians(be it hindus, muslims or sikh) and I can't tolerate that.

dude..lets be factual. riaj put mirchi to hindoos..main koi joot boliyan?

Re: # 254

OK. I wasn't talking about Jang particularly. I am a khichdi myself. I am atheist born in Hindu houselhold though my grandma used to take me to a Gurudwara when I was a kid.

Now when I visit a gurudwara - its only for the langar :-)

jang is Elephant Singh, a half sikh, dude40000

Re: # 252

Why do people assume all Indians are hindus. That's so pakistani-like to think, innit?

riaj yar, looks like you have put huge mirchi to the hindoos. you ought to be called a gaji.

Re: # 248

If Riaz worked at Intel, I am sure he must have had many Indian bosses. Is this the resentment that's showing Riaz?

Were the Indian bosses making giving you bad performance ratings? :-)

Re: # 248 I must thank Tahmed32 for providing us with the honorifics for Sri Ram Maulana HarishChandra Raiz Haq Swamijee Ullah lulla

Re: # 248 BTW that is a quote from http://pakistan.wikia.com/wiki/Riaz_Haq


also please subscribe to this twit's twits

.Riaz Haq (haqsmusings) on Twitter
Riaz Haq writes this blog to express his opinions and make comments on wide ranging topics.The subjects include events in Pakistan and Silicon Valley.
twitter.com/haqsmusings - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

Peepul, here is a proposition:

A collection for Sri Ram Maulana HarishChandra Raiz Haq Swamijee Ullah. $10.00 per head. We collect meet in San Francisco at any one of the following venues (I gather that he frequents these often)

Bar on Castro
The Cafe
Daddy's
Eagle tavern
End Up

Pay him (or donate to him )the money for the entertainment he has provided us so far, and for the evening entertainment of the RedWood tree he carries on his shoulder. He is a great personality of the Silicon valley as his cv proves, (I quote)

Mr. Riaz Haq (ریاض حق) is a high-tech executive, investor, business consultant and entrepreneur in Silicon Valley, CA. His credits include Intel 80386 CPU design that earned him a Person of the Year Award and two Silicon Valley startups he founded. Mr. Haq is an NED Engineering University alumnus from EE class of 1974 and he earned an MSEE from New Jersey Institute of Technology in 1982. Mr.Haq is the founder and President of PakAlumni Worldwide. For over 20 years Mr Haq has been engaged in complex high-tech product marketing, online consumer marketing, Web 2.0 technologies, development and engineering/operations with strong knowledge in software, semiconductors,microprocessors, networking and personal computer technologies at large and small companies including startups. Mr. Haq is a charter member of TIE Silicon Valley and served as Chairman of NEDians Convention 2007 in Silicon Valley.

I am totally in awe of his abilities. He has the presence of mind to bring to forward knowledge unknown to us. Knowledge in all fields, and has a fantastic and innate ability to screw around with everyone.

I am ready to donate this $10.00 - at the very least to see the Redwood growing on his shoulders

Re: # 202

RiazHaq

On 27th March, Pak army destroyed Ramna Mandira thousand year old himdu temple. During 9 months of war, pak army destroyed other temples and church in different parts of East Pakistan

Re: # 209

RiazHaq

don't get information from wikipedia, bengalis have more resourceful sites, If you want to know what your brave army were doing in 1971, please visit genocidebangladesh.org , you will find all kinds of fact and figures, quotes from all international newpapers and eye witness accounts.

Tahmed & Riaz sahibs:

The world was a witness to the unfolding events. There is simply too much in the archives, and the generation who witnessed it are still alive to question or deny. It is important to accept and move on.

Another deduction you may like to make is from the fact that no Pakistani will ever surrender to "hindu" Indian, but alomost 93,000 did. Why? Where was the jihad and shahadat?

Reason is, what Pakistan faced in East Pakistan was not what two of you believe - Indian trained etc. etc. It was will of people of East Pakistan. This shaped over the years since 1965 war.

A few years ago, I had met a Bangladeshi lady doctor. She being my age group, witnessed events, but from within. I would not call her rabid bengali instead a very balanced person.

She described to me that in pre-1965 war period, schools even had Saraswati Vandana and pooja. She recited it to my amazement. According to her, things started changing very rapidly after 1965. Books were changed, people were asked to change their customs and even dress code (according to her, she was asked not to wear saree to school).

Thus whatever you call it, was being done very visibly and ruthlessly. Apparently, according to her, Bengali poetry is full of revolutionary ideas from the British independence period. These were removed from the books.

When I asked about Pakistani contents, she was introduced and was very emphatic that it was acceptable by and large, and even welcomed like in her own family.

The resentment started to build was from hurt of the Bengali pride of purging Bengali culture, literature, civility (including dress code). This would be quite alike what Taliban wanted to do to minorities and Hitler wanted to do to minorities. In Pakistan's case it was unprecedented, it was being done to the majority. This was like adding salt to the injury.

I would trace the beginning of Bangladesh movement to these acts carried out by Pakistan shortly after 1965.

A friend of mine is settled in London, he told me that until 1965 war, going and coming back from Lahore was very easy. This friend was a college student in those days, and had made several trips himself to Lahore from Ludhiana where he grew up.

Interesting thing, according to him, was that his uncle's factory in Lahore was taken over by a Pakistani, and when my friend visited the Pakistani family welcomed him and proudly showed the work that his uncle had done and how this Pakistani family was managing it.

In England I had met a person from Pakistan. This person's mother was a hindu who was forced married to a Muslim (this person's father). She was a child of post partition, and recalled that in her childhood she was told of her mother's relatives in India. Her mama even visited them, as her mother's conversion, and children were accepted fait-accompli. Then suddenly after 1965 war everything stopped according to her. All contacts with her mother's hindu side broke down completely after the 1965 war. Until after she was married and settled had settled in Manchester that she was able to restart the contacts.

Lot was changed in Pakistan in post 1965 war period, in West and East Pakistan to be "not" India. Denial is not going to help understand issues.

RiazHuq MadrassaAlumnusUniversewide & SenileRacistBigot32, you don't have to go too far to see what the Bangladeshis think of your and your ilk.

From Chowk's own archives Nov 19, 2003 -- Read and weep if you have an ounce of shame or self respect.

Operation Searclight

By Tariq Aqil

http://www.chowk.com/articles/6803

================================== =====

True story of the infamous operation that resulted in the bloody birth of Bangladesh

Dhaka, March 25th 1971, Tejgaon airport. General Yahya, Pakistan’s military dictator, before boarding his special aircraft turned toGeneral Tikka Khan, Commander Eastern Command, and ordered “Sort them out!� Operation Searchlight had received the green signal from the highest authority in the land. The operation to “sort out� the Bengali citizens of Pakistan was launched around midnight on that fateful day in the nations turbulent history. Operation Searchlight extinguished the lives of many innocent Bengalis. It spread a thick pall of doom and gloom all across the fair and beautiful land of Bengal and destroyed the fragile relationship between East and West Pakistan. The night of 25th March 1971 was probably the last night of a united Pakistan. On this day the concept of Muslim nationhood was buried alive. The two-nation theory received a severe jolt and Jinnah’s Pakistan faded into oblivion. All that Searchlight achieved was death, destruction, loot, plunder, rape, and genocide of the Bengali people. This operation was a cleverly crafted blueprint for destroying the unity of the nation. It was also a clarion call for the Bengali freedom fighters and the start of a destructive civil war resulting in the bloody birth of Bangladesh on 16th December 1971.

All foreign correspondents and journalists had already been kicked out of Dhaka by the military authorities and a tight censorship imposed on the local news media. Three correspondents at the risk of their lives managed to stay in hiding and they were Arnold Zeitlin, Michael Laurent, and Simon Dring. On March 31st 1971 the daily Telegraph of London published Simon Dring’s eyewitness account of Operation Searchlight. Datelined Dhaka it was called “How Dhaka paid for a united Pakistan� Dring’s account of the army’s attack on Dhaka University was horrifying and shocking but vivid and factual. “Led by the American supplied M-24 World War 11 tanks one column of troops sped to Dhaka University shortly after midnight. Troops took over the British Council library (situated within the campus) and used it as a firebase to shell nearby dormitory areas. Caught completely by surprise some 200 students were killed in Iqbal hall head quarters of the militant anti Govt. students union I was told. Two days later bodies were still smoldering in burnt out rooms, Others were scattered outside, more floated in a nearby lake. At another hall reportedly soldiers buried the dead in a hastily dug mass grave, which was then bulldozed over by tanks. People living near the university were caught in the fire too and 200 yards of shanty houses running alongside a railway line were destroyed.�

After midnight on March 25th the city of Dhaka resounded with the sound of gunfire and the pungent odor of cordite. Tikka Khan was faced with a massive popular revolution, which he tried to crush with brutal military force and ruthless measures. Dhaka University, the Headquarters of the Police in Motijheel, and the strong hold of the East Pakistan Rifles (EPR) in Philkhana bore the brunt of the army’s onslaught. Heavy weapons such as the 105-mm recoilless rifles were freely used. Major Zia-ur-Rehman the second in command of the East Bengal regiment (EBR) killed all the non Bengali officers in his unit and announced the formation of the Govt. of Bangladesh from the Chittagong Radio station on March 26th 1971. Sheikh Mujib-ur-Rehman too, before his arrest by army commandos had made a declaration of independence “This may be my last message. From today Bangladesh is independent. I call upon the people of Bangladesh wherever you may be and with whatever you have to resist the army of occupation to the last. Your fight must go on until the last soldier of the Pakistan occupation army is expelled from the soil of Bangladesh and final victory is achieved.� Subsequently Taj-ud-din Ahmed the Prime Minister of the provisional Govt. in exile based in Calcutta issued another declaration of independence on 17th April 1971 “Pakistan is now dead and buried under a mountain of corpses.� Operation Searchlight was definitely the last nail in the coffin of a united Pakistan.

Bengali officers and other ranks in the Pakistani defense forces could not remain silent spectators to the massacre of their brethren. Most of them rose up in rebellion, took up arms against their Pakistani comrades and murdered their superior officers in cold blood. Many brutal and shocking atrocities were committed by the rebellious Bengali soldiers. They grabbed whatever arms and ammunition they could and fled to the jungles to join the mukti bahini under command of Colonel Usmani who was later designated as the C-in-C of the liberation forces.

The military Junta in West Pakistan was overjoyed at their initial success. The ruling elite and even some West Pakistani intellectuals actually believed that the entire drama in East Pakistan was staged by Indian agents and their Bengali stooges particularly the Hindu population of East Pakistan. They mistakenly believed that the majority of the Bengalis did not want secession from Pakistan and the power drunk generals often said “The rebels must be crushed; then we can talk of any political settlement.� The only concern or fear they had was about the extent of the Indian involvement. Leading lights of the ruling junta were Generals Hameed, Omar, khudadad, and peerzada safely installed in the air-conditioned luxury of their palatial houses in Rawalpindi. All these Generals were used to a life of luxury, pomp and show, and the accumulation of wealth. They were completely oblivious to the ground realities in East Pakistan. They were deaf and dumb to the cries of the Bengali people and blind to the exploitation of the province of East Pakistan. Their mistaken notion was that the Bengalis had been sorted out forever so why give them any political concessions. Justice Cornelius was ordered to prepare a draft constitution providing for “autonomy� for East Pakistan but within limits. General peerzada the “Rasputin� of the ruling junta wanted to ensure that the “Non Martial� race should never have the chance to rule over the “Martial� races of West Pakistan. Hitler was not the only one who believed in the theory of a superior race!! General Peerzada was also the chairman of the Constitution drafting commission called the Cornelius Committee. The rough draft constitution prepared by this committee was nothing short of a legal document authorizing the loot and exploitation of East Pakistan. Even at this stage the ruling elite of the country believed that the Bengalis could be tamed and browbeaten by the force of arms. The generals and the West Pakistan Beaurocracy were hard at work preparing a constitution for the people who had already declared their independence from Pakistan.

In December 1970 General Yahya Khan held the first ever fair free and transparent general elections in the nations history. The Awami League of Sheikh Mujib-ur-rehman won a landslide victory bagging 167 out of 169 seats from East Pakistan in the National assembly of 300 members. This election victory gave the Awami League an absolute majority in the assembly and the legal and constitutional right to form the Central Govt. of Pakistan. The ruling elite of West Pakistan were faced by their worst nightmare. Since 1947 they had planned and maneuvered to deny the Bengalis their birth right to rule over Pakistan. Sheikh Mujib had by now become the uncrowned king of Bengal. At a massive rally in Paltan Maidan he, and all the elected members of the Awami league had taken a solemn oath on the Holy Quran to implement the six-point program. Mujib was surrounded by the youthful and militant Bengali nationalists. The students committee had announced their own 11 point program and forced Mujib to adopt an inflexible and rigid stance in his negotiations with Yahya Khan and the leaders of West Pakistan. Mujib-ur-Rehman basking in the glory of acclaim and praise demanded the lifting of Martial Law and transfer of power to the elected representatives of the people. Bhutto the majority leader from the West insisted that the Awami League should abandon the six-point program. He maintained that before a constitution is framed power should be transferred to the two majority parties in East and West Pakistan.

Faced with imminent rebellion and civil war General Yahya Khan rushed to Dhaka on March 15th. To defuse the situation through a political settlement. After intense and marathon negotiations the two sides had come to an agreement by March 20th for the transfer of power. At this stage Z.A. Bhutto threw a spanner in the works. He announced that the agreement was not acceptable to him. He wanted the National Assembly session to be called first, or he should be given more time to negotiate with Mujib directly. The National Assembly session scheduled for March 23rd was postponed and Bhutto joined the parleys in Dhaka. On March 21st Colonel Hassan the judge advocate general and a member of the negotiating team handed over the draft of a presidential proclamation to the Awami league. On March 23rd the awami league negotiators met the President’s team. Now the Awami Leaguers were told that their six-point program could be adopted with some minor adjustments. It was proposed that M.M. Ahmed the deputy chairman of the planning commission will negotiate with the Awami League to sort out the economic and financial details of their six-point program. By nightfall on March 24th the Awami League had concluded its political negotiations. It was proposed by Mujib that his Aide Dr. Kamal Hussein and the eminent Jurist Justice Cornelius should work through out the night to finalize the agreement. Cornelius agreed, but General S.G.M Peerzada torpedoed the proposal with the cryptic remark “No, we may discuss it for a while then we can meet tomorrow morning.� When the Bengalis insisted on a fixed time for the meeting they were told that they will be informed of the time on telephone. The Awami League team waited all day on 25th March for the call from General Peezada. The telephone in the Awami League office did not ring all day. The last and final chance to preserve the territorial integrity and unity of Pakistan
was lost.

Z.A. Bhutto witnessed the bloody and gory drama of Operation Searchlight from the balcony of his room in the luxurious Hotel Intercontinental Dhaka and remarked later “At about ten thirty at night after finishing our dinner we went up to our rooms. An hour later we were awakened by the sound of gunfire. A number of my friends came to my room and we saw the army in action. We witnessed the military operations from our room for about three hours. A number of places were ablaze. We saw the demolition of the office of the newspaper “The People� this local English daily had indulged in crude and unrestrained provocation against the army and West Pakistan. With the horizon ablaze my thoughts turned to the past and the future. I wondered what was in store for us. Here in front of my own eyes I saw the death and destruction of my own people. Many thoughts crossed my mind. It was difficult to think straight. Had we passed the point of no return? Or would time heal the wounds and open a new chapter in the history of Pakistan? How I wished I knew the answer.�

The answer to Bhutto’s philosophical musings was that the point of no return had definitely been reached with the launching of Operation Searchlight.



References:

1. Atiqur Rahman, M (Lt.GEN.) Leadership: Senior Commanders. Lahore Ferozesons 1977

2. Cohen, Stephen P. The Indian Army. Berkley. University of California Press 1971

3. Chowdry, G.W. The Last Days of United Pakistan. London: G. Hurst and Co. 1974

4. Khan, Gul Hassan (Lt.Gen.) Memoirs of Lt. Gen. Gul Hassan Khan.
Karachi::Oxford University Press 1993

5. http://www.dhaka-bd.com/march26/OPERATION_SEARCHLIGHT.htm


6. Mazari, M Shireen, “Subversion & its linkage to low intensity conflicts. ethnic movements & violence� www.defencejoornal.com

7. http://www.weeklyholiday.net/170502/inret.html

The author was in Dacca during those dark and dismal days and witnessed a lot of atrocities himself.

SenileRacistBigot32 & MadrassaAlumnus,

Care to comment on this?

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/paki stan/11-curriculum-of-hatred--03

Curriculum of hatred

Dawn Editorial

Wednesday, 20 May, 2009 | 07:28 AM PST |

Schoolchildren take a test in Chiniot - APP/File photo. Sci-Tech Schools, kindergartens closed in Japan: flu cases reach 129 AN article in The Guardian focuses on a matter that our academics have been trying to highlight for at least a decade. It has been observed that the texts used in state-run schools foster religious extremism in a less blatant but more ubiquitous way than the infamous madressahs. By propagating concepts such as jihad, the inferiority of non-Muslims, India’s ingrained enmity with Pakistan, etc., the textbook board publications used by all government schools promote a mindset that is bigoted and obscurantist. Since there are more children studying in these schools than in madressahs the damage done is greater. A lot of research has been conducted on the contents of textbooks by teachers and sociologists who have compiled voluminous reports to persuade the education authorities to take corrective measures. Thanks to their efforts the dangerous implications of having such books in the school curricula are now being recognised.



But the process of change is not easy to initiate and implement when obscurantist forces are so firmly entrenched in every walk of life, especially in the education sector. In 2004 when an attempt was made to slightly modify a biology textbook that contained a Quranic verse on jihad, it backfired leading to the resignation of the education minister Zubeida Jalal. Once again, the government has announced that all textbooks are being revised to purge them of inflammatory material. When the changes will be made is anyone’s guess. The education policy, which should normally set the guidelines on curricula development and textbook policy, has been put on the back burner.



The fact is that the minds of generations of schoolchildren are being perverted by our public school system. It is not just the textbooks that are preaching hatred, violence and intolerance. The teachers who are the products of this system can teach no better. With a few noble exceptions, they make their students swallow hook, line and sinker what the books say without even attempting to moderate the ideas conveyed. Being disinterested in their work, most teachers do not inspire their students with knowledge acquired from other sources. That makes the textbooks all-important especially when the pedagogy in our schools does not seek to inculcate creativity and curiosity in the child or to encourage him to ask questions and do some research in the quest of knowledge. One can only hope that the exercise to revise textbooks is expedited and private textbook publishers are allowed to enter the field if they can deliver.

#235:
"Bangladesh urges Pakistan apology for 1971 'crimes' ..."

Oh never mind all that. Tahmed and Riaz have been playing gulli danda with Bengali boys since childhood. How do you explain that if all these things are true ?

;-)

#235

Don't bother. A buddy of SenileRacistBigot32 who happens to be a closet islamofascist in BD told him all is hunky dory in BD and they are ready to re-unite with their breathern in the west. That is all that is necesary.

Oh by the way...here is a passport application for the "PureLand"

http://www.pakistan-embassy.org/forms/A%20form%20fillabl e.pdf

Can someone explain how a self respecting country put a section like #16 in a passport application? Perhaps the Madrassa Alumnus Universewide can try to spin this....

Re: # 223

Tahmed sahib:

"...anil/bongdongs/nb #218 if pakistanis were so brutal and mean to bengalis as you say, how come bengladesh has such friendly relations with Pakistan?..."

Are you not mixing brutalities with sympathies. These have been recorded and are there in the archives of media all over the U.S. and England.

Bangladeshis behavior, if what you say is true, then all I can say is that Pakistani leaders were not only brutal but fools also. These are the people who would remain Pakistani in such a case.

I have seen how East and West Pakistani students before Bangladesh war would stick together, and how the war changed the chemistry between them on the campus. I have too met Bangladeshis who were not even born, and I was surprised how derogately they were calling Punjabis names. I had to politely remind them that there Punjabis in India too, and in fact Gen. Arora who got the surrender signed was a Punjabi.

I think you are underestimating Bangladeshis anger. This generation is taught and know each battle fought in details, as if all is on their finger tips.

nb#237:

Those leading the agitation, if not the agitators themselves,must have known the impact of their agitation. And do you really believe in those rigging rumours? How does one rig those EVMs?

nb:

This was more than grieving. When industry is thrown out, grieving is too long and too harmful. Don't you think?

Dostmittar, I think the anger was against the way the land was acquired, not against industry. The CPM forgot it was not China. People do want industry, they were grieved at having to give up their land and a standing crop for the plant. Many of them didn't even receive market compensation, and in many cases, the land of Trinamool supporters was deliberately targeted, and that of CPM supporters spared.
The Left Front has been hand-in-glove with corrupt businessmen for several years, and the current CM is particularly bad, contrary to the image he likes to portray. They behave like complete dictators, and people have long had enough. I heard rumours that the Left Front was not allowed to rig elections this time either as a punishment for pulling the rug out under MMS, they have used 'scientific rigging' in the past.

nb#207:

Are you suggesting that MB's agitation against land acquisition for Nano did not play a role in people's voting?

Re: # 223 Tahmed

"...if pakistanis were so brutal and mean to bengalis as you say, how come bengladesh has such friendly relations with Pakistan?..."

Bangladesh urges Pakistan apology for 1971 'crimes'

Bangladeshi officials have said three million people were killed during the fight for independence. -AFP

Wed, May 13, 2009
AFP

DHAKA (AFP) - Bangladesh on Wednesday urged Pakistan to apologise formally for alleged atrocities committed by its army during Bangladesh's bloody liberation struggle in 1971.

Bangladeshi officials have said three million people were killed during the fight for independence for what was then East Pakistan, and the new government in Dhaka has vowed to try suspected war criminals.

In a meeting with Pakistan's High Commissioner on Wednesday, Foreign Minister Dipu Moni raised the issue of "seeking formal apologies by Pakistan for the genocide in 1971," a written statement said.

A Pakistani envoy told Bangladesh in February to let "bygones be bygones" and rejected plans to try those accused of murder, rape and arson.

A private Dhaka-based group that has investigated the conflict has named 1,775 people, including Pakistani generals and local Islamists allied with Pakistan, as war crime suspects.

http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews/Asia/Story/A1Story20 090513-141247.html

everything in the real world is a shade of gray, so why talk about anything then?

Tahmed, everyone says different things to different people, Bengalis are human, and so of course they do. Have you reached this age without realising this?
Anyway, what do you think about the targeting of Bengali Hindus? I am not talking of war brutalities against soldiers, I am talking of civilians who were not involved in the war in any way. You want to say it never happened, just say so.

#230

a lot of hindu's were also killed in the violence in Gujarat in 2002.

So dont get into this talk of communal brutalities. There is enough brutality to go around as it is, and it is not something to score points with

#229 yes indeed. No one can predict the future. but by all indications, the taliban-alqaeda have shown that dumb-and-dumber can fool people only for so long.

nb #226 so the bengalis say different things behind people's back? you should try and drop this bad habit of making negative generalizations about groups of people. it leads you to poor conclusions.

as for war brutalities, war is indeed not conducted over tea and samosas. and both sides can tell their tales of horror. a family friend of ours, e.g., principal of the Chittagong Cadet College, was brutally killed by the mukti bahini. What was his crime? When in Dhaka, I saw a book showing the mukti bahini carrying the decapitated head of a pakistani soldier. Were these saints who carried around a dead man's head as a trophy?

So, dont get into this talk of war brutalities. There is enough brutality to go around as it is, and it is not something to score points with.

Re: # 228

I hope you are right. But, I still think its going to be a decades long fight - only time will tell though. The jury is still out.

#224 on 1, agreed that these animals enjoyed popular support until quite recently, even upto March 7-30. But they had been eroding this popular support (as I mentioned) with their policy of intimidating the local population, and their reneging on the Swat Deal and proved to be the tipping point. A week is a long time in politics, particularly in a volatile situation as in Pakistan nowadays.

on 2. You would have to be kidding or else seriously unaware of the ground realities of Pakistan if you think every second home - or indeed any home - would willingly open its doors to bloodthirsty animals like these. no doubt they enjoyed Pakistani hospitality early on in the Fata areas - but they abused that and the locals have been forming lashkars to fight them in the months preceding the military action.

3. See 1 above.

bongdongs #204

As far as RiazHaq (PAW) is concerned, a clear pattern should be evident by now. He will lie without compunction whenever he thinks he can get away with it. When confronted, he will try to brazen it out - even ask you to go and read sources that you know pretty well. He perhaps calculates that not too many people have the time to dig things up and corner him. He is hardly unique in this though - in my opinion a general disregard for truth is common among Pakistanis of his class.

Where treatment of religious minorities goes, any discussion involving Pakistan has to start with the observation that it is a country expressly created for Islam (or Muslims - take your pick) and a confessional state, with institutionalised civic discrimination against non-Muslims written into the statutes and a long if varying history of unequal treatment for them under the law.

But you will not find the likes of RiazHaq (PAW) or tahmed32 ever mentioning things like the blasphemy law that have been used to terrorise and intimidate Pakistani Christians and used as instruments to deprive them of their property.

nb #216

{{Will you always change the topic?}}

But of course he will - that is a consistent pattern. Why would he want to be pinned down discussing specifics with someone who is ready to nail him on his lies? Much better to throw up a smokescreen of distraction - also a favoured technique of tahmed's.

Tahmed, Bangladeshis will say the right things in front of you, but in front of fellow Bengalis, not other Indians, they never stop talking about how bad the Pakistanis were and express sympathy that we have to live with Punjabis and Biharis.
But anyway, are you suggesting that Bengali Hindus were not targeted in the War of Liberation, since that is the topic? I try to avoid FP discussions like this, but this is one that I have read a lot about, in English and Bengali, and I can't keep quiet about it. Thanks.

#223

A former VHP member like Stuka has dinner and cracks jokes with Pakistani muslims in the a bar in New York.

so could you super-intelligent beings from Pakistan explain to me how the VHp could be responsible for anti-muslim violence in India?

Re: # 219

Tahmed -

1) Lack of popular support - I respectfully disagree. The International Republican Institute’s public opinion survey, of a “national representative sample of adult residents in Pakistan�, conducted between March 7-30, 2009.

http://www.iri.org/newsreleases/pdfs/2009%20May%2011%20Survey%20of%20Pa kistan%20Public%20Opinion,%20March%207-30,%202009.pdf

The survey suggests that (before the Pakistani army began its offensive against the Taliban in the Malakand region in late April) almost two-thirds of the respondents (72%) supported striking peace deals with the Taliban knowing that such deals with strengthen the Taliban movement. 80% of the respondents supported the government’s deal with the Taliban. That’s not all, 56% the respondents replied in the affirmative when asked if they would support a Taliban support for sharia in other parts of the country, like Karachi, Multan, Quetta or Lahore. Support for the Lashkar-e-Taiba is strong, with 43% viewing it favourably, (46% unfavourably, and 12% didn’t know/didn’t respond).

Sure, surveys are inexact and things might have changed in the last two months, but they suggest that the risk of Talibanisation is not insignificant. Also, if you quantify the numbers - that's 86 million people supporting Swat type peace deals.

2) No safe haven - See point 1 above. We are talking of more than 50% support among the Taliban, that's a safe haven in every second home in Pakistan.

3) No moral legitimacy - Agreed. Taliban goons have no legitimacy in your and my eyes - but what about the more than 50% population supporters in Pakistan.

anil/bongdongs/nb #218 if pakistanis were so brutal and mean to bengalis as you say, how come bengladesh has such friendly relations with Pakistan? how come the bengalis I talked too were rooting for the Pakistan cricket team vs India when I was visiting Dhaka in the late 1990's? how come even a former mukti bahini leader whom i met while visiting Dhaka embraced me like a brother and over lunch had nothing but fond memories of his stay in Pakistan?

I hope you super-intelligent beings from India can answer these stupid questions to a dumb paki like me.

#221

of course anil, Riaz's claim is over the top (as usual)

Bongdongs:

So did Israel. These are only unsubstantiated claims. Unsubstantiated in the sense that these supplies were the reason for Sri Lankan victory. India simply washed its hands off, when its interest did not collide with the west in the region. This happened in early 90s when Indian economy shifted.

Riaz's claim, if true, only shows Pakistani army's help became effective after 15 years of war. This is a Sri Lankan victory, let the glory be theirs too.

correction: it should be "2-3 years", not "2-3 miles" in #219 first sentence below.

dude #192 I think there is reason for optimism that the taliban-alqaeda infestation will not last decades or even more than 2-3 miles (as have other insurgencies that you mention). These reasons include:
1. Lack of popular support. The alqaeda-taliban, being dumb-and-dumber, seem to have not heard the famous maxim of Mao-tse tung, namely that "the guerrilla must move among the people as a fish moves in the sea." These clowns have alienated the local population with their own maxim, namely that "the mullah must intimidate the local population by slaughter people like fish in a butcher shop", or something like that.

2. No Safe haven: The other groups you mention had safe havens in other countries. Pakistani dictators had turned Pakistan into a safe haven for the kashmir "freedom fighters" as well as for the taliban-alqaeda running away from Afghanistan. Being dumb-and-dumber, these clowns decided to play "aasteen ka samp"...and turned public opinion against them. And they have NATO/US waiting to pulverize these basterds in afghanistan if they try running to the West, China keeping a quiet but watchful eye to the North, and India (where you know the situation better than me).

3. No moral legitimacy Their brutal ways have taken off the mask of piety and Islam with which they fooled so many in Pakistan for so long.

and so forth.

Also conversely, the nations of the world have learnt much about fighting counter-insurgencies over the past 50 years - and thus, the US is following the policy (successfully used in Iraq as part of the belated "surge") and literally re-written the book on the subject. This strategy basically calls for first ensuring security to the local population (thus freeing them from fear of the insurgents which cause the lotas to start shouting "Mullah Fazlullah Zindabad"), and then promoting economic progress. And the US is now putting its economic muscle behind this strategy with this new economic aid bill.

Finally, and most important in my view, is the factor I mentioned earlier - while terrorists were musharraf's job security, and thus he made only a pretense of persuing them, the democratic government has no use for them. And that is why the Pakistan forces are going after them hammer and tongs, (or planes and tanks).

Re: # 212

Riaz sahib:

"...Just go and check the facts on how deeply India was involved in East Pakistan..."

As student in England in those days, I had the fortune to witness this war from the front and center as BBC, ITN and other newspaper was so intensive. You might like to check for yourself how brutal Pakistan was in handling East Pakistan even before India got involved.

#215

Pakistani supplied some arms, ammunition and training to the Sri Lankan Army

Riaz Haq, I'm talking about Bengali Hindus being targeted in the war of Liberation. They had nothing to do with India's involvement. Will you always change the topic?

Re: # 212

Riaz sahib:

"...defeated with Pakistan's help..."

Please give up this dream of strategic depth of Pakistan. Pakistan is unable to defeat its own terrorist and probably bombs them more in a month, than Sri Lanka bombed them in entire year.

Since you have been so meticulous about posting copy and paste, and links to sources, can you back your claims of Pakistan being the reason for Sri Lankan victory?

This victory is Sri Lanka's. Just leave it at that. Your position does not reflect well on your talent.

#210

atlest unlike Riaq I'm not thumping my chest and saying

"show me one instance in which minorities were discriminated aginst in India or one place of worship destroyed"

India is a large, complex and highly heterogenous country, any two contradictory statements about India will be correct at the same point in time.

Re: # 209

Riaz Haq:

"...None of you has answered the specific questions I posed to you about the organized nature and targeting of minorities in Babri Masjid, Gujarat and Orissa. ...."

Can you please restate them here in a single posting?

I will try to answer them for you. Mind you those will be my answers, much as the points you make are your points. Therefore, you would have to keep in mind that those answers would not be for for or on-behalf of India.

Your point on Wikipedia is merely a convenient one.

Re: # 211

Just go and check the facts on how deeply India was involved in East Pakistan, who assembled, trained, and armed Mukti Bahnini, who were the key players in Mukti Bahini, about Agartala conspiracy from independent sources like Federation of American scientists who track RAW and its machinations in South Asia.

I am so happy that the RAW funded, trained, inspired LTTE terrorists in Sri Lanka have finally been defeated with Pakistan's help.

Read: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/india/raw/index.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq, please do not try to say that Bengali Hindus were not deliberately targeted in the War of Liberation. All accounts in Bangladesh confirm they were.
Also, I suggest you try to make a change, any change, 'with an agenda' in Wikipedia and see how long it lasts. You constantly quote wiki when it suits you.
In my years on chowk, I have seen several Pakistanis full of fire and brimstone against Indians, unfortunately they usually burn themselves out and leave on their own :)

sri ram bongdong #208 you hindus are so holy and pure. we pakis should be ashamed of ourselves.

While I acknowledge that what happened in East Pakistan is a sad and shameful chapter in Pakistan's history, let me also add that Wikipedia entries can be made by any one with an agenda. The Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information. So don't believe everything you there if you are earnestly seeking truth.

None of you has answered the specific questions I posed to you about the organized nature and targeting of minorities in Babri Masjid, Gujarat and Orissa. ....other than offer wild, speculative and clearly defensive answers.

You don't even have the decency to show any shame or remorse over the wanton brutalities regularly committed in India against various minorities and dalits.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

The genocide and gendercidal atrocities were also perpetrated by lower-ranking officers and ordinary soldiers. These “willing executioners� were fueled by an abiding anti-Bengali racism, especially against the Hindu minority. “Bengalis were often compared with monkeys and chickens. Said Pakistan General Niazi, ‘It was a low lying land of low lying people.’ The Hindus among the Bengalis were as Jews to the Nazis: scum and vermin that [should] best be exterminated. As to the Moslem Bengalis, they were to live only on the sufferance of the soldiers: any infraction, any suspicion cast on them, any need for reprisal, could mean their death. And the soldiers were free to kill at will. The journalist Dan Coggin quoted one Punjabi captain as telling him, "We can kill anyone for anything. We are accountable to no one." This is the arrogance of Power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Bangladesh_atrocities

RiazHaq, now thump your chest with pride

The West Bengal vote is not anti-industrialisation, but because people are tired of the oppression of the West Bengal Left Front.

this is of course without even mentioning 1971 (of which Pakistani's like RiaqHaq have no shame)

1965-69 was an era of systemic discrimination, intimidation and murderous violence against the Bengali Hindu minority in East Pakistan.

"1. What is the equivalent (temple or church) like Babri Masjid that was destroyed in East Pakistan with the active support of major political parties?
2. Which minority (Hindu or Christian) was systematically raped and murdered like Muslims in Gujarat or Christians Orissa?"

RiazHaq,

seems to me like you are really dense (till now I thought you merely pretended to be so)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vested_Property_Act_(Bangladesh)

before you react in knee-jerk fashion, this law was mainly used in the pre-71 Pakistan era. Since '74 this law was significantly changed and is seldom used.

As I said, the BJP lost to its buddies in BJD, the key BJP leaders accused in Orissa still won their seats...so much for justice.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 186

Explain to me the following:

1. What is the equivalent (temple or church) like Babri Masjid that was destroyed in East Pakistan with the active support of major political parties?
2. Which minority (Hindu or Christian) was systematically raped and murdered like Muslims in Gujarat or Christians Orissa?

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

and who won in Orissa, moron?

While BJP lost in Orissa to its former allies in RJD, two out of the three BJP candidates who were accused of anti-Christian rioting and murder were elected to the assembly there.

The following piece was published in The Telegraph prior to the election results:

The Gujarat Model
Why the last week in Orissa was historic

In retrospect, the violence in Kandhamal in Orissa last year seems like the first step in an electoral strategy, a strategy that can be broadly described as the Gujarat model. For those who don’t remember those events, starting in the last week of August, Christians in the Kandhamal district suffered a month and a half of systematic intimidation, killing and displacement. Figures released by the Orissa government put the figure at over 12,000 refugees, fed and sheltered in government camps. This doesn’t account for those Christians who fled their homes and sought refuge in places other than these refugee camps, so the overall figure for the displaced is higher.

The troubles began after Swami Laxmananda Saraswati, a Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader, was murdered by ‘Maoists’. The sangh parivar alleged that his murder had been organized by Christians and used his funeral procession to stoke murderous violence against Christians in the area. Having ‘cleansed’ Christians from their homes, Hindutva militants declared with impunity that they wouldn’t be allowed back till they re-converted to their ‘parent’ faith, Hinduism. There were reports of groups of Christians submitting to ritual ‘shuddhi’ ceremonies organized by these custodians of Hinduism’s integrity, to purge them of Christianity, that alien contagion.

The main accused in this campaign of carnage and killing was Manoj Pradhan. Charged with more than a dozen cases of murder and arson, Manoj Pradhan is currently lodged in jail in G. Udayagiri, a town in Kandhamal. The not-so-subtle irony is that Pradhan is also the Bharatiya Janata Party’s official candidate for the G. Udayagiri assembly seat in the approaching elections. B.B. Ramachandran, the BJP’s leader in the state’s legislative assembly, offered a familiar defence: “he has been arrested under false charges. In any case, he is not yet proved guilty in the court of law. Let the people decide his fate�.

The BJP’s nominee for the newly delimited Kandhamal Lok Sabha seat is a former IPS officer, Ashok Sahu, currently the state president of the Hindu Jagaran Samukhya, who is notable for having declared without the inconvenience of evidence that Christian terrorists had killed Laxmananda Saraswati.

A pogrom is the first step in the Gujarat model. The object of the pogrom is polarization, specifically the consolidation of a Hindu majority. The third ‘P’ in this grim sequence is political victory at the polls. What we’ve seen in the last week in Orissa is the BJP’s political establishment explicitly owning this strategy. The long history of rivalry and tension between the largely Hindu Kandhas and the largely Christian Panos has been brought to fever pitch by the violence. Apart from possibly firming up a Hindu vote bloc, the Kandhamal carnage led to the large-scale dispersal of Christian voters (thousands of whom never returned to the villages where they’re registered to vote) and the large-scale loss of identity cards of those who remained in Kandhamal whether in refugee camps or outside them.

The Catholic archbishop of Cuttack, Raphael Cheenath, even asked for elections in Kandhamal to be postponed because thousands of people had lost both the documentation necessary for voting and the belief that they could vote securely. He pointed out that the government had conducted no survey to determine how many Christians had been chased out of their neighbourhoods.. In these circumstances, the BJP’s leadership sensed an opportunity. Freed from any political need for restraint (having been divorced by Navin Patnaik’s Biju Janata Dal before the polls), it allowed its campaigners to give their majoritarian instincts full, feral play.

In a circumstance where, just over six months ago, dozens of Christians had been killed and thousands made homeless, Sushma Swaraj in a recent speech accused the BJD of not protecting Hindus. Narendra Modi, the pioneer of this political strategy first tested on the bloodied proving grounds of Gujarat, told an election rally that “[t]he spirit of Swami Laxmananda will shatter the dreams of Naveen Patnaik�. But the last word in this matter must be reserved for Ashok Sahu, the BJP’s Lok Sabha candidate for the Kandhamal seat. He said, “What happened in Kandhamal is no reason to be ashamed about, at least not for me. Today Kandhamal symbolizes Hindu culture.�

The reason these contests in Kandhamal are of historic and of national importance is because they show us the BJP being true to its impulses, its gut beliefs. Over the last few years (with the exception of Gujarat), the BJP has been compelled by political and electoral necessity to abide by anodyne coalition manifestos. Now that the party doesn’t have a tiresomely ‘secular’ partner to alienate in Gujarat, it’s taking the opportunity to be itself.

As Jajati Karan reported on Ibnlive.in.com, Manoj Pradhan had already contested the assembly elections before, as an independent, and won over 15,000 votes. The winning figure was 34,000. The calculation is that with the ground-clearing violence of Kandhamal behind him and the endorsement of a major party, he might well win the election.

Manoj Pradhan is 30 years old, roughly the same age as the BJP’s Lok Sabha candidate from Pilibhit …quot; perhaps the best way of understanding him is to think of him as someone who has walked Varun Gandhi’s talk. There were those who were surprised by the BJP’s reluctance to distance itself from the young Gandhi after the Election Commission condemned his hate speech and recommended that the party not give him a Lok Sabha ticket from Pilibhit. Their surprise was misplaced: to stand by Varun Gandhi’s Lok Sabha candidacy was no hardship for a party that was willing to reward Pradhan’s bloodier doings in the cause of a Hindu rashtra.

In recent times, majoritarian organizations in this country have tried to expand the domain of permissible violence. The Sri Ram Sena in Karnataka, the Maharashtra Navnirman Sena in Maharashtra, and the BJP in Orissa and Karnataka have used thuggish intimidation in the name of a defence of culture. Their targets have been the vulnerable and the weak: young women, poor north Indian men and religious minorities. This election is a pointer to the likely political behaviour of the BJP parties were it to be sprung from the straitjacket of coalition politics. And should it win the Kandhamal contests, something ominous shall have been proved.

(The above article appeared in The Telegraph, April 9 , 2009. It is reproduced here for educational and non-commercial use.)
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Dash#198:

"Will it be the golwalkar way or the savarkar way or the HMS way?"

This is the 64000-rupee question. The BJP has now fought two general elections on the non-hindutva plank and lost both. That would normally favour going back to the hindutva plank. However, at the state level, they have been able to win only on the basis of good governance; so if the elections are fought at the regional level, then deelopment plank would make more sense. Ideally, Modi would represent a marriage of both hindutva and development, but he would be an anathema not only to minorities but to many decent hindus who cannot forget the 2002 atrocities - the exception would be if he proves himself to be totally uninvolved in those riots (very unlikely) or express genuine remorse for what happened then.

I am not so sure of this. I was in Kerala and found that the communist govt. there was quite unpopular; moreover Kerala usually alternates between the Left and Democratic fronts of Congress. The Bengal vote can even be considered against industrialization as it is mainly the result of anger following the Tata Nano fiasco.


The nano fiasco and the back lash is an indication of aspirational change.

Land reforms doen some 30 years back, have been okay till now. But the generation which benefitted from these reforms, have children - all of whom cannot earn a living from the land. This is the major driving force behind the change in "aspirations".

That Mamta got it the seats/votes is interesting. Though, she might be the fly int he congress soup. Time will tell.

Mayawati...the % vote share not much lost, here....but as the author (I forget his name) from UP said, she has to develop the the theme of "dalit liberalism" - an inclusive dalit philosohy. So far the "dalit pride" philosophy has taken her to the UP chair. If she has to go beyondit, she needs to develop this "dalit liberalism" concept. This would have been a vote clincher for her. There is amyth that the muslim vote is monolithic....dont think that is the case.

The right to decide which way it wants to go....What is your thinking on this. Will it be the golwalkar way or the savarkar way or the HMS way?

DM go to ndtv.com, then elections then vote share...the percentages are interesting...Mumabi, delhi, Chennai (allies), Bangalore, Kolkatta, Patna, Hyderabad, Bhopal. Jaipur, Chandigarh, ..exceptions are there...similarly Rajasthan rural area was a wash out....like in the earlier elections...

Re: # 194

Even the Indian army chief, General Kapur, is from the same region: at least the two won't have any excuse for not understanding the other's language.:)

Re: # 190

Dash:

Very good points. Let me try and respond:

"a)isn't it more the case that the voter, went for the median in the spectrum of political ideology - resounding rejecting the left, and rejecting the right - rather than "stability"."

That may be too much of generalization. I agree with the person who said that elections in India are won or lost at the local level (though not necessarily on local issues) and regional factors play a key role.

"(b) The BJP held onto its base in the rural areas, while it lost all of its base in the urban areas. The steep divide between the urban and the rural is even more sharper now."

I have not seen rural/urban breakdown. But I think that regional factors were more important; for example, BJP seems to have lost in the rural areas of Rajasthan and maybe even in U.P (it seems to have done well in urban areas like Lucknow, Ghaziabad, Benaras, etc.). The Congress is generally supposed to have gained in rural areas because of the NREGS, higher procurement prices and loan waivers for farmers.

"(c) the congress did not with the youth vote, as much as it won the urban vote. (see above). This is congress propaganda more than anything else."

Once again, the vote breakdowns are not available yet, so it's hard to say anything in this regard.

"(d) There was no great swing in votes in UP (if you see the break down of percentages) - the congress won fewer votes (okay they contested fewer seats (around 60 I think) - but even if you extrapolate them its not much). This is similar in all other states."

It seems that Mayawati has lost vote share. All indications are that Muslims switched to the Congress in a big way to prevent Advani from becoming the PM: all 15 Muslim candidates put up by SP were defeated in Muslim concentration ridings and the beneficiaries were mostly Hindu Congress candidates.

"(e) The left parties, mainly the CPIM, CPI lost in Kerala and West Bengal not because of internal contradictions and fatigue of the people, but because of an aspirational change in both states."

I am not so sure of this. I was in Kerala and found that the communist govt. there was quite unpopular; moreover Kerala usually alternates between the Left and Democratic fronts of Congress. The Bengal vote can even be considered against industrialization as it is mainly the result of anger following the Tata Nano fiasco.

"(f) in the urban area's, BJP lost due to a lack of clear understanding of what it stands for - as the Editor of Lok Satta, and Chandan Mitra (on NDTV) put it - Sarvarkar or Golwalkar or HMS. Clarity here would have got it more setasin the urban areas - ofcourse the MNS played the spoiler in Mumbai."

I agree completely.

Re: # 193

On the latest Time 100 map, I saw two stars on Pothwar region in Jhelum district. As I looked further, it turns out that the two represent Manmohan Singh and Gen Kayani (from Gujar Khan), both born in the region.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

teshah#173:

Shahji, we pothowaris can indeed take some pride in the fact that we have produced not only two prime ministers but also the last three army chiefs in India. Not bad for a tiny minority kicked out of its homeland and derided as khatri banias.

Re: # 183

[No doubt the democracy movement against military dictatorship, followed by the invasion of Pakistan by the stateless thugs and their local lackeys, the taliban, has reaped a heavy economic cost. And on top of this there has been the global recession. Thus, the GNP growth is only 2.5% this year. But these are short-term things - the economic cost of the democracy movement is thus an investment for improved governance which, it is now agreed by development experts, is an essential condition for long term economic success]

Tahmed - I don't know of any insurgency that has lasted less than a couple of decades. Sri Lanka(30 yr), Kashmir (20 yr), Bangladesh (depends on when you start counting from), India Punjab (15-20 yrs), Baluchistan (don't know how many - but quite a few). These are just some examples from the neighbourhood. There are countless others. Also, notice that in all of the above (except Bangladesh) the state has already won/is winning and during these decades many regimes changed but the state maintained its steadfast reslove to stand against insurgents throughout to defeat them. The key question facing Pakistan is will it be able to sustain a war for the next decade (at least) with the same motivation even though the government may be changing every few years. Guerrilla wars tend to be long fights, likely to be won by the more committed side. The only way in which the Pakistan army can defeat the Taliban is by fighting with them for at least a decade if not many decades.

Having said this, I agree with you that its in India's self interests that Pakistan defeats the Taliban goons (and as quick as possible).

not because =not only because

DM, a few points if I may

(a)isn't it more the case that the voter, went for the median in the spectrum of political ideology - resounding rejecting the left, and rejecting the right - rather than "stability".

(b) The BJP held onto its base in the rural areas, while it lost all of its base in the urban areas. The steep divide between the urban and the rural is even more sharper now.

(c) the congress did not with the youth vote, as much as it won the urban vote. (see above). This is congress propaganda more than anything else.

(d) There was no great swing in votes in UP (if you see the break down of percentages) - the congress won fewer votes (okay they contested fewer seats (around 60 I think) - but even if you extrapolate them its not much). This is similar in all other states.

(e) The left parties, mainly the CPIM, CPI lost in Kerala and West Bengal not because of internal contradictions and fatigue of the people, but because of an aspirational change in both states.

(f) in the urban area's, BJP lost due to a lack of clear understanding of what it stands for - as the Editor of Lok Satta, and Chandan Mitra (on NDTV) put it - Sarvarkar or Golwalkar or HMS. Clarity here would have got it more setasin the urban areas - ofcourse the MNS played the spoiler in Mumbai.

What does pakistan stand for?

------------------------------
Thousands of Pakistanis took advantage of loopholes in UK's immigration laws to register themselves as students of fake colleges, fuelling a surge in arrivals from the Islamic nation, which Prime Minister Gordon Brown has identified as the birthplace of two thirds of terrorist plots in Britain.

As Pakistanis exploited the hole in the immigration system, it allowed in hundreds of youths from Pakistan's militant heartland to register themselves as students at a network of sham colleges, The Times reported.

Eight of the ten Pakistani students arrested last month during anti-terror raids in Manchester and Liverpool were enrolled in one college (Manchester College of Professional Studies between November 2006 and October 2007), which had three small classrooms and three teachers for the 1,797 students.

All were released without charge but are being held in prison pending their appeals against a deportation order.

Another institute claimed to have 150 students but secretly enrolled 1,178 and offered places to a further 1,575 overseas applicants, 906 of them in Pakistan, the report said.

The fraudsters, who have earned millions from the scam, charged at least 1,000 pounds for admission and fake diplomas. They created their own university to issue bogus degrees, the British daily said.

According to the finds of the British paper, they also charged 2,500 pounds for false attendance records, diplomas and degrees that were used to extend the students’ stay in Britain.

Between 2002 and 2007, the number of Pakistanis with permission to enter or remain in Britain on student visas jumped from 7,975 to 26,935.

Mir Ahmad, a wealthy associate linked to two murders in Pakistan, was arrested yesterday after the daily gave the the authorities documents implicating two of the colleges.

The Times has uncovered close ties between 11 colleges in London, Manchester and Bradford, all set up in the past five years and supervised by three young Pakistani businessmen.

Manchester College of Professional Studies, set up in 2006, sold places to more than 1,000 students, including hundreds of men from the restive North West Frontier Province, which is know to have become a safe haven for Taliban and al-Qaeda militants.

The UK Border Agency introduced tougher laws last month to weed out bogus colleges and close the immigration loophole.

Phil Woolas, Britain's Immigration Minister, has said the information provided by The Times "has been passed on to the UK Border Agency, which is investigating."

The minister told the daily last month that the overhaul of the student visa system formed part of "the most significant changes to our immigration system since the Second World War". However, some of those involved in exploiting the hole in Britain’s immigration defences are already seeking to exploit the new system, the report said.

#174 What does pakistan stand for?

1. Islamo-supremacy, or the belief that muslims are inherently superior to other groups, especially the hindus. This is deeply ingrained in almost every facet of pakistani culture and the reason why they keep debating who is a muslim, what makes a muslim etc. If you are a muslim you need no other achievements, you are better than the "other"

2. Warlike agressive behavior as the highest value. Afghanistan and pakistan were repeatedly conquered by muslim warlords for 100s of years. As you well know this was the great failure of the leaders of the area during 1000-1500.
This has led to the belief that warlordism and military values are the highest virtue. Keep in mind the warlords like Ghazni, Ghauri etc. never created any infrastructure or education in india, they created armed camps for themselves and looted the population. So this is the basic model for the pakistani army and its relationship to the state.

3. Finally, pakistan stands for the right of a region and people to practice self-determination and rule itself. In this sense pakistan is a legitimate state, it doesnt matter how stinky their culture is or how lunatic their ideas are. The only problem is that they continue to inflict violence on India and Afghanistan.

So the only hope for pakistan is if they focus on (3) and dont meddle elsewhere. Otherwise, ultimately, india, china and iran will have to take it over and purge it of (1) and (2) over many many years.

SPY..what do you think about indian hard line terrorist ande extremist Hindu group the VHP, the military wing of the political party BHP, they were responsible for some of the worst attrocites in Gujrat and also responsible for attacking christens. what do you think about their policy of "religious cleansing" in India to rid the eastern state of Orissa of its minority Christian population . in SHINING INDIA what do think when Hindu mobs rampaged through dozens of villages, tearing down churches and brick homes, setting them on fire and beating up Christians - as well as engaging in gang-rapes.A Catholic nun was one of those gang-raped.

Re: # 163 Riaz

"...I'd like to now is if you can find any parallels in Pakistan of Babri Masjid destruction, Gujarat pogrom of 2000+ Muslims or recent rape-murder of hundreds of Christians in Orissa? I bet you can't, because non exist...

1971

Re: # 179 many people interacting directly have found this to be the case. Some one somewhere got the smarts on him, I guess

Re: # 180...what you IT GUYS FROM INDIA ignore on this forum is that there are Hindu groups in India too who are acting like Taliban,killing and burning places of other religious minorities,ever local population in India stopped Hindu hard liners not to attack Muslims or Christens???

dude #150 No doubt the democracy movement against military dictatorship, followed by the invasion of Pakistan by the stateless thugs and their local lackeys, the taliban, has reaped a heavy economic cost. And on top of this there has been the global recession. Thus, the GNP growth is only 2.5% this year. But these are short-term things - the economic cost of the democracy movement is thus an investment for improved governance which, it is now agreed by development experts, is an essential condition for long term economic success.

In the 1960's, Pakistan was the model developing country - and there is every reason to believe that it will re-emerge. And that is good for India too, which is part of the region. And the rest of the world. A win-win situation all around (a novel concept for some geniuses on chowk, of course).

As for the credibility of the military success, rest assured there is substance to it. The military has been chomping at the bit for a long time to go after these bastards, and were held back by Musharraf's double-game of keeping the "pot boiling, but not boiling over" (a copy of Zia's strategy vis-a-vis support to afghans against the Soviets in the 1970's where Pakistani support was just short of being openly provocative and thus inviting a Soviet invasion of Pakistan itself (a real threat back then).

spy #195 writes "trecherous, lazy, well-fed-but-always-begging, would-sell-their-mother-for-a-few-dollors and of late the women-beating, rape-as-punishment and public beheading etc. is practiced by the Pathans/phkhtoons etc."

and..

spy #173 writes " Believe me I have nothing against Pathans/Pukhtoons community. "

Believe you? Sri Ram Logic (SRL) in action!!

#180 sri ram spy: " the local population needs to be ashamed of it and take responsibility for letting it happen and also to stop it."

I see. Just as the population of Mumbai should be ashamed of letting the attack happen. No wait, that was Pakistan's problem too.

Sri Ram logic in action!!

Re: # 173 Khyber...You can do the hair-splitting for explanation, but that does not matter. Point is that uncivilised events are happening in that part of the world and the local population needs to be ashamed of it and take responsibility for letting it happen and also to stop it.

- "they have criminals from central asian countries, india, saudi arabia etc". It should be Pakistan and not India. Most Indians dont know the place, the way to it, who is fighting whom and for what etc. unless you are referring to Dawood and likes etc. But there are enough murmurs that it is all stage managed to get more aid from USA.

- "I am sure Pak army will defeat and kill those criminals now". Good you see them as criminals and get rid of them. We are on the same page on this.

Re: # 178

For the 1st time an intelligent post.

1 Malaysian guy of Indian origin but muslim met this guy a couple of years ago and did not let in the Indian part. He was flabbergasted by this guys pomposity and the chip he carried on his shoulder against things Indian/Hindu.

Sample this gem "It is disgusting for an Islamic country to have to call its capital Putrajaya".

Sanatani

Me thinks it is not a chip but a chunk he carries on his shoulder

#176 by devkant

Yaar Devkant, you're talking to the alumni of some world-famous mental institution. A real pompous a$$ with deep seated inferiority complex, if you ask me. Otherwise, why would anyone feel the need to suffix their affiliations to every post?

Re: # 176
DK...
I will oblige to answer you...
Islam is so great that rest of the non-muslas accepted Islam in Pakiland as well as in India...
That should be the expetced answer from people like Riaz Katue...or katuas of BD...But look at HRW report and each musla country have notorious record....

But the problem is that nobody, apart from a Paki katua accepts this logic and so lauds Indian society for its tolerence etc. etc.......
India is secular country beacuase it is ingrained in Indian culture (or they say Hindu culture)...and Pakistan is state epicentre of terrorism, due to Islam...

Every year, muslas living in India, are building several hundred mosques...How many temples and churches Paki non-muslas are able to build there in Pakistan?

Riaz Katue any answeer for this?
I know that beduin clone bast***( Riaz) will avoid it and red flag the post...

"#163 Posted by RiazHaq on May 20, 2009 4:39:52 pm
Re: # 161
These are nothing but a bunch of opinions expressed by the writers with an agenda, without any facts or data to back them up."

ok dude....lets get you some facts.
when india was partitioned, the minorities in pakistan constituted about 25% of the population. Now they are only 2 or 3% of the population wheres in india the percentage of minorities which was about 10 to 12% during the partition has actually increased to about 18 to 20% of the population.

care to explain the dramatic drop in the minorities in pakistan???? and these are facts which are published in ur own country's census.

DK.

Re: # 173..SPY....FIRST you don't know anything about pukhtunwali,second you mentioned,''events of woman-beating, behading and many others became common in lime-light rather than the oft-repeated "Pukhtoonwali'' let me tell you those were actions of ignorant taliban who does not represent pukhtuns or pakistanis as ALQUIDA OR OSAMA does not represent Islam or muslim world,also remember all taliban are not pukhtuns,they have criminals from central asian countries,india,saudi arabia etc and I am sure Pak army will defeat and kill those criminals now.

india stands for inclusion of every religion in politics. not just islam, but hindu, christian and atheistic.
what does pakistan stand for?

Re: # 98 Tahmed32: so it is OK to write insults about some community of people, but to show the mirror to his face make me a communalist. indian logic in action.

Tahmed32: You statements are contradictory and reflect frustration at not being able to respond appropriately, and resorting to personal attacks. Believe me I have nothing against Pathans/Pukhtoons community. In fact the average Indian (including me) had high respect for the Pathans as depicted in the umpteen Bollywood movies till the 70s and 80s. But as mentioned earlier when the events of woman-beating, behading and many others became common in lime-light rather than the oft-repeated "Pukhtoonwali" forcing any man to have a rethinking about the Pathan image. The past also reinforces the idea as Pathans have always been warriors and looters rather builders.

I sincerly wish the Pathans community to get rid of the wrong things in the lime-light and adopt the ideal Pukhtoonwali traditions.

Dost Mittar

Congratulations DM dear as your ‘giraayiin’ has again become the PM of India. In fact all of us Punjbies of Pothohaari region should be proud that Manmohan Singh of Chakwal made a double after Indar Kumar Kujral of Jehlum blonging to the same region as PMs of that great country. This also shows victory for democracy and secularism which will hopefuuly have tremendous effect particularly on the South Asia. Our country, Pakistan, aught to take lesson from it that religion and democracy are an antithesis and that secularism is a must for a real democracy and stability.

Re: # 96 sri ram tahmad32: You seem to have become a Sri ram bhakt (follower). It is your choice if you have become enlightened and seen the virtues of the religion of your great-great-great grandfathers before they were forcible converted.

I have no knowledge of sri ram nor his follower, but seems you had some good things/changes come in your life ever since you made this choice. Please pass on the secret to us.

again, Islam is active in USA...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8060684.stm
Dems should not have shut down gimo...

Riaz tp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ1O9NlnugE

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327 million Indians — about 30% of the population — still live in poverty on less than $1 a day, according to the Asian Development Bank. More than 160 million people in India are considered "Untouchable"—people tainted by their birth into a caste system that deems them impure, less than human.A report released by Amnesty International found an "extremely high" number of sexual assaults on Dalit women, frequently perpetrated by landlords, upper-caste villagers, and police officers. The study estimates that only about 5 percent of attacks are registered, and that police officers dismissed at least 30 percent of rape complaints as false.

Re: # 161.......sounds like in secular india religious minorities are enjoying their rights.
Title State of the World's Minorities 2008 - India
Publisher Minority Rights Group International
Country India
Publication Date 11 March 2008
Cite as Minority Rights Group International, State of the World's Minorities 2008 - India, 11 March 2008, available at: http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/48a7eae3c.html
State of the World's Minorities 2008 - India
During its 60th year of independence, India was slammed by the UN for failing to prevent caste discrimination. In March 2007 the UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) strongly criticized India for its treatment of its 165 million lower-caste Dalits. CERD accused India of widespread abuses against Dalits, saying they faced discrimination in housing, schooling and public positions. In a report released in New York, CERD said that Dalits, also known as 'untouchables', were made to work in degrading conditions.
Violence against Dalits continued through 2007. According to the Dalit Freedom Network (DFN), every year 10,000 cases of violence against Dalits, ranging from attacks and rape to killings, are recorded. In August rioting broke out in Haryana province after a Dalit boy was gunned down by three unidentified gunmen. The World Organization against Torture, a coalition of international NGOs fighting against torture, in October issued a statement calling for urgent action against the harassment of Dalits in Kolathur, a village in Tamil Nadu. The villagers have been attempting to speak out against the health and economic impact of an illegally located aquafarm in their village. In Bhilvara district in Rajastan, a Dalit man was murdered because he refused to withdraw a case against a person from a dominant caste for the rape of his wife, DFN said.


Like low-caste Dalits, India's tribal Adivasis also face issues of discrimination and inhuman treatment. November 2007 saw nationwide outrage sparked as the media reported that an Adivasi woman was stripped in public and assaulted during a demonstration in Guwahati in Assam.

Religious minorities, mainly Muslims and Christians, in majority Hindu India, were also victims of violence and persecution in 2007. In May thousands of Christians took to the streets of India's capital New Delhi, calling on the government to stop violence against the religious minority. The DFN reported on its website that some 4,000 people had been arrested by police and temporarily detained during the protest.

Muslim minority groups in September launched protests against the government for its failure to implement recommendations of the Sachhar Committee report. The report, released in 2006, recognized the discrimination against minorities and called for a series of government measures to bring an end to it. In May explosions in a mosque, Mecca Masjid, in Hydrabad, killed 11 people. Police fired live ammunition and shot and killed five people in subsequent rioting that broke out in the city in protest against the government's failure to protect minority places of worship.

Another major concern for minority groups has been the adoption of anti-conversion laws in four Indian states. In October the state of Himachal Pradesh became the fourth to usher in 'anti-conversion' laws. The controversial Act requires any person wishing to convert to another religion to give prior notice of at least 30 days to district authorities. The laws are expected to largely affect non-Hindu religious minorities.

Re: # 161
These are nothing but a bunch of opinions expressed by the writers with an agenda, without any facts or data to back them up.

What I'd like to now is if you can find any parallels in Pakistan of Babri Masjid destruction, Gujarat pogrom of 2000+ Muslims or recent rape-murder of hundreds of Christians in Orissa? I bet you can't, because non exist.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Dost # 71,

In such matters there can be no evidence of what transpired between two people. One speculates from the outcome if one is not blinded by bias. After sonia's meeting with Abdul Kalam, she gave the drama performance of why she would not run for PM ( People who believe in her to be a saint think that Abdul Kalaam's conversation had nothing to do with it). The same performance had the climax performed by the congress member threatening to shoot himself. A nation of suckers slowly evolving towards better judgement perhaps.

Adios

heh, heh, what a bunch of racist clowns, drunk on islamo-supremacy, pointing fingers at others.

Here are few samples of pakistani culture:

1) Hindus in pakistan - a community groaning under
hatred and prejudice

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/11/protectingpakis tanshindus

There are two levels of prejudice in Pakistan with respect to Hindus - the cultural and the legal.

While it is difficult to say which one is more pernicious, cultural prejudice is certainly more difficult to uproot because it is perpetuated by religious supremacism, nationalism, stories, myth, lies, families, media, schooling and bigotry.

Cultural prejudice has become part and parcel of language itself. Hindus are referred to as "na pak." Na means "un" and pak means "pure." So, Hindus are turned into the impure, or unclean. Given that the word "pak" is part of the word "Pakistan" - which means Land of the Pure - somebody's impurity suggests that they are not really Pakistani.

To make matters even worse, Pakistani mullahs teach a very supremacist version of the Islamic creed, the kalima. Usually, the kalima reads simply: "There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final messenger." The version that children are taught, however, reads as follows: "The first kalima is Tayyab; Tayyab means Pak (Pure); There is no god but God and Muhammad is His final Messenger."


2) Ahmedis in Pakistan
http://www.thepersecution.org/archive/pl_toc.html

The religious establishment in Pakistan does not approve of the reformatory nature of the Ahmadiyya Movement, and they consider it heretic. Politicians have often found it politically attractive to support the mulla in his anti-Ahmadiyya agitation. The first countrywide violence erupted in 1953. A high level judicial inquiry subsequently found and declared that political considerations and exigency were the main cause of the spread of the Anti-Ahmadiyya violence. Many years later, Mr. Bhutto found it politically advantageous in 1974 to have the Ahmadis declared a non-Muslim minority. This was done after another countrywide violent anti-Ahmadiyya agitation conceived and engineered by the government and carried out by mullas. Minority status was an innovation, in that, while other religious groups were a minority by their own profession, Ahmadis were forcibly declared a minority through legislation.

General Zia, the military dictator of Pakistan, went many steps further in 1984, when to gain the support of Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan, he promulgated the notorious anti-Ahmadiyya Ordinance XX which added Sections 298-B and 298-C in Pakistan Criminal Code. Through this Ordinance, Ahmadis were deprived of most of their basic human rights and their freedom of faith.

3) Christians in pakistan
http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/viewnews.php?newsid=1336

It will be very important to note in 21st century that Christian are treated as untouchable by Muslim majority on basis of religion and cannot dine at any roadside vendor, restaurant and hotel which is worst type of hate on globe towards Christian in Pakistan. If any Christian on journey or away from home is hungry and attempts to eat in any Muslim owned dinner, he is beaten and tortured by Muslims and forced to pay for plates and glass in which he eats or any thing he have touched. The Pakistan Christian Congress PCC presented many memorandums to government from 1985-1998 to legislate against curse of un-touchable to ensure social justice in society but such demands were neglected. The curse of un-touchable have prevented Christians to take part in profitable catering industry because Pakistani Muslim terms Christians as infidel under Islamic decree which prohibit to eat any food prepared by them.

Re: # 154

The New York Times reported today that ammunition the U.S. provides to it allies in the Afghan army may be falling into the hands of the militants.

http://worldfocus.org/blog/2009/05/20/taliban-may-be-armed-with-am erican-ammunition/5466/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 158

http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2008/03/04/is_democracy_a_joke_in_ind ia/8658/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 157..Very illuminating...can you post link of this article plz.

Re: # 155

Here is how Indian writer Bijo Francis explains it:

"What else can one expect from a culture defined by at least 2,000 years of systematic oppression? The Indian caste system is unfortunately one of the foundation stones of Indian culture. Though much has changed on the surface, the Indian mind is still under the influence of caste practices.

In a caste-based society there is no scope for challenge or questioning. The concept of equality does not exist. Discrimination is forced upon a person from top to bottom. The top being numerically small compared to the bottom, the caste society resembles a pyramid, where the lowest strata is expected to bear the weight of the top. Caste is not just about religion, but is more about oppression -- of the majority by the minority.

India cannot be understood without understanding what caste is. There is a counter argument to this concept of oppression: What about the lower caste politicians who also have risen to authority? The response is: Can they be different from the social milieu they belong to?"
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

'Slumdog Millionaire': Another young star's shanty home gets bulldozed. Bulldozers flattened the home of another Slumdog Millionaire actor in the Garib Nagar section of Mumbai, India. According to the Associated Press, 9-year-old Rubina Ali, who played Freida Pinto's character as a young street orphan, is homeless after city officials demolished her parents' shanty home. "I'm feeling bad," Ali told the AP. " I'm thinking about where to sleep." Last week, the home of Ali's young costar Azharuddin Mohammed Ismail was also leveled, in a similar government effort to clean up the slum.


http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/05/another-slumdog.html

I feel sorry for India's poor.

Re: # 148...thats right tahmed....One thing i dont get whenever I ask these noble n wise indians about their poverty,homeless people on streets in india,untouchables and pregnancy tests etc they don't say anything?why is that???

Pakistani "Taliban" are using US supplied Ammo.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/worl d/07-afghan-taliban-may-be-using-us-army-ammo-nyt-ha-06


Contrary to the report of being captured from Afghan security forces, this was directly supplied by the U.S. through its Afghan proxies....now you have a direct link apart from the circumstantial evidence of US complicity in the creation and feeding of the so-called Pakistani Taliban

Alumni WW, the Indians haven't learned from the love letters the US wrote to the Pakistan Army's generals whenever it wanted to F Pakistan, now these fools believe that American interest in India is out of genuine love and that after this one night stand is over they'll get a call the next day....Ain't gonna happen, Americans only F their slaves and kill the rebels with impunity, the former like tahmed have no self respect or worth and so they enjoy being treated as a slave, the latter at least die with dignity- the taliban represent a third type hybrid, slaves of the US that enjoy being F'd by it and also get killed with impunity....

TNITC masadi

Tahmed writes "Mr. Masadi #124 That was very thoughtful of you to alert chowk staff. As a World Revolutionary, shouldnt you be beyond alerting the authorities to annoying posts? I mean, shouldnt you be organizing a peasants' revolt or a factory strike?"

Ahmad sahib other than the fact that you come out as a pathetic person who has nothing better to do with his CIA payrolled time than to write banalities. Have you never heard of the expression "by any means necessary"

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

There are some positive signs of a rebound in Pak economy:

1. The KSE-100, Karachi's stock index, is up 27 percent this year, compared with a 12 percent gain in MSCI’s emerging-market stock index of 26 emerging economies, including BRIC countries.

2. The Pakistani rupee, which declined 22 percent against the dollar last year, the second-worst performer in Asia, fell 1.8 percent this year.

3. On the corporate profitability front, during the worst global down turn in a century, Pakistan’s corporate profitability of listed companies declined by a mere 3% in aggregate in the 3rd quarter of 2009.

4. Foreign direct investment (FDI) inflows jumped 100 per cent year on year to 708 million dollars in the month of December, 2008, as the telecom, oil and gas, and financial-services sectors continued to attract foreign inventors.

5. At the end of calender year 2008, remittances topped 7 billion dollars, an increase of 17 per cent year over year, led by higher remittances from oil-rich GCC countries, which grew by 30 per cent year on year.

To learn more, take a look at http://southasiainvestor.blogspot.com/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 148

Tahmed - I agree with you that 2007 was a turning point for Pakistan from a political point of view. But from an economic point of view the trajectory started going downwards and that's what I am referring to. After 2007, Pakistan received a double whammy of a) GWOT becoming a full scale insurgency within Pakistan b) The global financial crisis.

Both these factors combined turned out to be a fiscal disaster for Pakistan. Obviously, one can argue that in the long run getting democracy will be better so 2007 was in fact a positive inflection point. The jury is still out on that. And I agree with you that it was only after democracy returned to Pakistan, national opinion could be formed against Taliban (army without public opinion wouldn't have done what it has done in the last 2-3 weeks). But, I was totally speaking from an economic (and hence Human development index) standpoint, that the trajectory went downwards. With GDP growth dropping to about 1-2% only if not negative.

RE:1971 - I never commented on India's military achievement. All I am saying is that its hard to believe ISPR's propoganda machine that they have killed 1000 taliban so far (and 80 today) considering their track record from 1971.

Riaz Sahib: I knew I could count on you to keep the Mishra's in line. :-)

#145 dude: I dont agree with you - 2007 was in fact the turning point in a positive direction away from dictatorship and lawlessness towards a democratic society. And this was the result of a sustained struggle led by the civil society and supported by the vast majority of Pakistanis - of which I am very proud as a Pakistani. Look at other nations ruled by dictators (Burma, middle east etc.) and the magnitude of the achievement of the Pakistani people becomes clear.

In 2009 the democratic government of Pakistan has taken the legacy of the dictator's rule - the taliban - and exposed their true face behind the veil of "Islam" that they wear, and is thus giving them a thrashing they never received during 8 years of dictatorship (for which they were in fact a form of job security, and thus allowed to flourish).

As for 1971, that was hardly the military achievement that Indians like to believe it was - it doesnt require much to overcome an outgunned, outmanned group with no air cover, a hostile local population, and no supply lines. In any case, 1971 was the best thing that could have happened to Pakistan for a number of reasons - it spurred efforts to build the nuclear bomb and thus neutralize the Indian military threat, and made it a more cohesive nation with the drag of inter-wing issues eliminated.

So - you obviously wont hear the above in India, and I would be surprised if you were to change your lifelong views based on one post. So, we can agree to disagree on this. While agreeing that it is in the mutual interest of both countries that they prosper.

Re: # 142
tahmed,
Don't worry. It's my distinct honor and privilege to tweak them, as and when necessary.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 117
masadi,
It's not unusual for many Indians, including their prime minister, to suck up to some of the most hated Americans like George W. Bush. Bush was deeply unpopular with his own people when Manmohan Singh came to Washington last October to assure him, "The people of India deeply love you, Mr. President."

Later, India's Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon explained: “I think, if you look at the public opinion polls, the ratings for President Bush are higher in India than in any other country. That is the factual basis.�

Bush's popularity in India was explained well by Yoginder Sikand when he wrote as follows:

"America's 'global war on terror' has provided a convenient cover to the Hindutva lobby and to fiercely anti-Muslim elements within the Indian state machinery to launch a concerted campaign of terror against Muslims. Large numbers of Muslims in various parts of India continue to languish in jails on trumped-up terror charges, suffering brutal torture as well as routine insults to their religion by police officials. Meanwhile, Hindu terrorists, often in league with the police and the state machinery, are allowed to run riot, unleashing violence and bloodshed on a frightening scale, while the state, the police and the courts take no firm action against them. Bomb blasts that are now occurring with frightening frequency, whose perpetrators remain unknown, are automatically blamed on Muslims, while some of these might possibly be engineered by Hindutva outfits or by elements within the state apparatus, or even by foreign intelligence agencies like the CIA or the Israeli Mossad who have a vested interest in demonizing Muslims and thereby driving India closer into the deadly American-Israeli embrace. That, in brief, was what numerous social activists as well as dozens of Muslim victims of police and state terror testified to at a public hearing on brutalities against Muslims in the name of countering 'terrorism' recently organised in Hyderabad by a group of noted human rights' activists. Going by their depositions and the verdict of the jury of eminent social activists, journalists and retired judges, it appears that powerful elements within the state apparatus are deeply implicated, along with Hindu terrorist groups, in a witch-hunt of India's Muslim citizens."


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 144

Tahmed - With due respect, I really don't believe the ISPR when they say they have killed 80 Taliban today. Its the same army which until 24 hrs before Gen Niazi surrendered was saying that Pak army is winning. So, I take that with a grain of salt.

Having said that, I agree that up until 2007 Pakistani trajectory was on a positive path too but after that its taken a severe beating(after GWOT became Pak's own war). Hope you guys finish the Talian goons quickly and start moving up again sooner than later.

#143 dude. OK then. In that case I dont have any quarrel with you.

Of course Pakistan has problems too - but today we took care of 80 of them I understand. Sent them on a direct flight from heaven on earth (i.e. Swat) to hell, thanks to the Pakistan Army. Other problems (poverty etc.) will take a little longer - but rest assured Pakistan is on the way up too.

Re: # 141

I come on chowk to do exactly what the site says at the top discuss "India Pakistan Identities Ideas".

There is a lot to be proud as an Indian - sure we have a lot of problems that need to be fixed. But what gives me hope is the trend is positive, if you look at any Human development data.

Dr RiazHaq: Please post another lengthy article on some aspect of India that you wont hear a peep from the indoos on chowk. (I need that for dramatic affect to accompany my posts #140/#141 below).

#139 dude: i am glad you are proud of india. what brings you to chowk? nothing here but us pakis getting bashed from brave indian keyboard warriors!!

Mishra #138 for a dedicated "paki basher" you whine too much when receiving the favor. You need to learn from some of the veteran "paki bashers" on chowk. What a disgrace you are to the hindutva cause!!

Re: # 138

Misharaji - You are right. These Pakistanis just don't get it that one doesn't need to be hindu to be a proud Indian.

Once again - Three cheers for Indian democracy and MMS!

But dude40000 - you dont get it - in the paki worldview all indians are hindu - i.e. nasty people about whom any racist rubbish can be written anytime. Even comments from Chinese papers about "democracy" are OK - I guess that is even more laughable than a paki lecturing us on secularism !!

You are just lucky he didnt call you "kali ma dude4000" :-) But maybe that comes next...

Re: # 136

And I am not a Hindu. I am Indian. Understand the difference!

Re: # 135

I said chinese newspapers not Chinese. Well done again! keep it up.

Re: # 134

Since when is Bijo Francis Chinese? From your perspective, I guess he's not Indian enough because he is not Hindu.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 133

Only Pakis can quote about democracy from Chinese newspapers.

Keep it up Riaz - no wonder you army is bombing your own civilians (once again!).

Re: # 113

Indian democracy and constructive debate? Who are you kidding?

Watch this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Aw5wleqIhI

Then read the following:

Hong Kong, China — The Indian Parliament is a joke. If you think this is merely the twaddle of a columnist who writes unpleasant facts about his country, you are wrong. The statement was made Monday by none other than Somnath Chatterjee, speaker of the lower house of the Indian Parliament.

And yes, he is right. The chair was expressing his concern about the behavior of the members of the Lok Sabha, the lower house of Parliament, when he found that the "honorable" members of Parliament were behaving in an unmannerly way, continuously interrupting the proceedings during a session.

Why did Chatterjee expect that the members he is supposed to control would "maintain decorum" from the moment they entered the Parliament? A majority of them have no past experience to stand on. Chatterjee will either have to sit back, enjoy his cup of tea and endure their behavior, or refuse to put up with them any longer.

Chatterjee's position is not much different from the average Indian citizen. Indians are forced to accept -- rather, destined to tolerate -- some of the worst anti-democratic and anti-people legislators the world has seen. Yet this happens in the name of democracy.

Take for example the Union Railway Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav. This honorable minister who was invited to Harvard University to give a lecture in management is one of the most notorious politicians India has ever suffered.

Before taking charge of the Indian Railways, Yadav was chief minister of the state of Bihar. Yadav's tenure as chief minister is better known as the dark days of that state. Kidnapping for ransom was the easiest way of making money in Bihar during his time in office. When he faced prosecution for corruption he was forced to step down from office, but he continued to rule from home, appointing his wife as chief minister. This period is known as the "kitchen raj" in Bihar.

The fact that such a person could turn Indian Railways into a profit-making enterprise speaks volumes about the previous personalities that controlled the railways. There are hundreds of such unique examples in Indian politics.

The chief minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi, is yet another example. Modi is one of the chief conspirators of the Gujarat massacre. Report after report has accused him of being personally responsible for the massacre that killed more than 1,000 people in the Hindu-Muslim riot that literally burned the state in 2002.

At least in Modi's case the Americans were reasonable. The U.S. government in 2003 revoked his visa on the grounds that Modi was responsible for violations of religious freedom. The bureaucrats in the U.S. government are apparently more capable of reasoning than the five-star managers at Harvard.

Yet, all these specimens get elected again and again in the world's largest democracy. The question is how this is possible. If you expect an answer, I do not have one. However, I could suggest some indicators.

Take for example the recently concluded election in Gujarat. Modi assuming office as the chief minister of Gujarat on Dec. 25, 2007, should have been viewed with horror by anyone who is serious about democracy and democratic values. There was no other choice, however, since the Bahratiya Janata Party managed to win 117 out of the 182 seats in the State Assembly. Naturally, the leader of the pack was chosen as chief minister and that was Modi.

What happened to the massacre, the futile prosecutions and the criminal charges? All has been lost in thin air.

What else can one expect from a culture defined by at least 2,000 years of systematic oppression? The Indian caste system is unfortunately one of the foundation stones of Indian culture. Though much has changed on the surface, the Indian mind is still under the influence of caste practices.

In a caste-based society there is no scope for challenge or questioning. The concept of equality does not exist. Discrimination is forced upon a person from top to bottom. The top being numerically small compared to the bottom, the caste society resembles a pyramid, where the lowest strata is expected to bear the weight of the top. Caste is not just about religion, but is more about oppression -- of the majority by the minority.

India cannot be understood without understanding what caste is. There is a counter argument to this concept of oppression: What about the lower caste politicians who also have risen to authority? The response is: Can they be different from the social milieu they belong to?

In the midst of a disorderly session, Chatterjee said the Indian parliamentarians were "working overtime to murder democracy." I beg to disagree; how many times can democracy die?

--

(Bijo Francis is a human rights lawyer currently working with the Asian Legal Resource Center in Hong Kong. He is responsible for the South Asia desk at the center. Mr. Francis has practiced law for more than a decade and holds an advanced master's degree in human rights law.)

Source: http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2008/03/04/is_democracy_a_joke_in_india/8658 /

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

heh, heh, tahmed shows his colors by using "sri ram" as a perjorative term. No surprises there :-)

There used to be another deep thinker from pakiland in chowk who would use "kali ma" in a similar fashion. In both cases, a religous symbol is being used as part of a pejorative nickname, sort of like "stupid XYZ". No doubt these clowns think this is very liberal, secular etc. But then this is what they are taught from an early age.

But as masadi as appeared on the scene, well, not much remains to be said. He reminds me of this nut job I knew twenty years ago who kept insisting that Albania was the only free society in the world. And,yet, he bathed everyday and seemed to do his work. I doubt that about Masadi though.

SenileIdiot32

Dude, I like bashing Pakis like you. I enjoy seeing you bashed by others too. I am not selfish that way.

Re: # 128

Tahmed dude whatever - you are jealous!

OK, gentlemen. Class Dismissed.

Homeword Assignments:

Mr. Masadi - You are detained for negligence as World Revolutionary by indulging in red flags rather than fomenting Peasant Revolts.

CoolAl and Dude to practice avoiding India Shining through their Gora Nicks.

Sri Ram Dude #126 Thanks for providing another illustration of the point I was trying to get across to Sri Ram Al below (i.e. about India Shining through in your posts despite your fancy gora nicks).

Sri Ram CoolAl: You forgot the standard Indian line on why you are here on chowk - i.e. for "paki bashing". So dont lose focus!

Re: # 121

Good to hear someone in Pakistan jealous about IIT.

Well Pakistan also has International Institute of Taliban- it has 13000 branches, last I checked.

Mr. Masadi #124 That was very thoughtful of you to alert chowk staff. As a World Revolutionary, shouldnt you be beyond alerting the authorities to annoying posts? I mean, shouldnt you be organizing a peasants' revolt or a factory strike?

chowk staff I am redflagging tahmed's post, please do the needful.

TNITC masadi

SenileIdiot32

Sorry Dude that is not a gora nick. I don't get angry if you call me Sriram. You are welcome to. I don't hate muslims dude. I can't stand sanctimonious idiots like *you*. That is all.

Take a look in the mirror yourself dude. You blame the Indians and then indulge in the worst kind of riligious bigotry yourself. The only person you fool with this crap is yourself. But don't mind me -- continue.

I just come here for entertainment. I used to come here more often for insight but now I only see people like you here. Anyway, I am living in interesting times. I am fascinated by what is happening in your country and your people.

Mr. Masadi: Are you writing a PhD dissertation in response to my post? Hope you are feeling well and are not slowed down by fever.

and btw, being old is not a crime. and pointing to the fact that you are not Al does not make me an idiot. (these are things they dont teach you at IIT).

#119 Sri Ram CoolAl: If wishes were horses, you would be riding. Get used to the view of Wagah Border.

Well anyway, it is a good day. I see Pakis now claim to have exterminated 1057 "Miscreants" in Buner district. This after the Taliban was "cleansed" from the area a week ago.

I pray to allah to stock up on virgins. May this conflict continue for a looong time. Viva la Taliban. Viva la Pure Army.

I hope SenileIdiot32's relatives back in Punjab are packing. I see only one direction for them to go -- Back to East Punjab!!! LOL!!!

Professor Masadi: Just when I was feeling good about Jinnah sparing us all these hindu nuts...you had to come along to remind me that duds, duffers, dumbs and dumbers exist on both sides of the border. :-(

Alumni WW how goes? The point that is lost on most Indians is that this so-called 'vote for stability' is a vote for their further enslavement to the US, and the people had no part in it, the common Indian has no clue about IT or capitalism's shenanigans where the success of 1% of the population is achieved and promoted at the expense of the over 80% that languish on less than $2 a day. In the U.S. game India and China are major distractions from the miserable state of the US constructed world (including India).

Have a nice day and stay away from viruses that float on chowk, I wont name any names otherwise they will ban me again....

TNITC masadi

Sri Ram CoolAl: It is not cool to get angry when someone reminds you that you are not Al (or Bubba, let alone an entire US research organization that Pepe le Pew fancies himself to be) but Sri Ram. And the miserable Sri Ram culture of hatred and self-promotion Shines Through in your posts despite your fancy gora nicks.

SenileIdiot32

Indians may be stupid. So call them that. You calling then Sriram because they said something that you don't agree with makes only you look stupid and worse a religious bigot. Not that I mind. Please continue :)

sri ram pmishra #113 to Mr. Riaz: "unlike you we indians are used to constructive debate and discussion. "

You indians are funny..but only unintentionally.

riaz,

unlike you we indians are used to constructive debate and discussion. This is one advantage of living in a democracy and not depending on the army HQ to define our nation. Mr. Sikand is a better quality critic than pankaj mishra, yet i am also aware that he believes various nonsensical things about CIA, Mossad, Capitalism, Hindutva and so on.

Of course, pakistanis, starting right from jinnah have always arrogantly tried to style themselves as secular and high-minded critics of indian society. Mr. Jinnah once proclaimed that since democracy was invented in 7th century arabia, pakistan would naturally be democratic! In part this is the legacy of islamo-supremacy that forms the core identity of pakistan, something that thinking individuals like Ramachandra Guha have also noted.

Unfortunately, the strange thing is that paki society has over the years gotten more and more extreme and intolerant. First the hindus and sikks were cleansed and expelled, then the ahmedis outed, now the sunni fight the shia. But that has never stopped them from lecturing indians on secularism, freedom of religion, prejudice, caste and so on!

As a friend once said to me, after listening to a pakistani "intellectual" - its just like having a shark give a long lecture on the virtues of vegetarianism. I think its an apt summary of your outputs.

As I offer this following piece by another Indian writer Yoginder Sikand, I fully expect more cheap shots and vicious personal attacks from the now familiar Indian band of bigots on Chowk:

Terrifying Testimonies
By Yoginder Sikand,
TwoCircles.net

several months now, almost no week passes without the media reporting about 'dreaded Muslim fundamentalists' being picked up by the police and allegedly confessing to being involved in bomb blasts or plots to engineer violence across India. It is not my argument that all of these reports are cooked-up and dished-out propaganda. Some of these stories must be true, and those behind such acts must be caught and punished. But, the fact remains, many of these stories circulating in the media are wholly fabricated, and these are being manufactured and highlighted for a particular motive: to fuel anti-Muslim passions and, thereby, justify various forms of discrimination and oppression—even murder—of hapless Muslim citizens who, far from having anything to do with terrorism, are victims of terror—of agencies of the state, especially the police and Hindutva terror outfits.

America's 'global war on terror' has provided a convenient cover to the Hindutva lobby and to fiercely anti-Muslim elements within the Indian state machinery to launch a concerted campaign of terror against Muslims. Large numbers of Muslims in various parts of India continue to languish in jails on trumped-up terror charges, suffering brutal torture as well as routine insults to their religion by police officials. Meanwhile, Hindu terrorists, often in league with the police and the state machinery, are allowed to run riot, unleashing violence and bloodshed on a frightening scale, while the state, the police and the courts take no firm action against them. Bomb blasts that are now occurring with frightening frequency, whose perpetrators remain unknown, are automatically blamed on Muslims, while some of these might possibly be engineered by Hindutva outfits or by elements within the state apparatus, or even by foreign intelligence agencies like the CIA or the Israeli Mossad who have a vested interest in demonizing Muslims and thereby driving India closer into the deadly American-Israeli embrace. That, in brief, was what numerous social activists as well as dozens of Muslim victims of police and state terror testified to at a public hearing on brutalities against Muslims in the name of countering 'terrorism' recently organised in Hyderabad by a group of noted human rights' activists. Going by their depositions and the verdict of the jury of eminent social activists, journalists and retired judges, it appears that powerful elements within the state apparatus are deeply implicated, along with Hindu terrorist groups, in a witch-hunt of India's Muslim citizens.

27 year-old Yakoob Khan from Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, was arrested at the age of 17, accused of being involved in the Coimbatore blasts in 1998, a charge that he vehemently denies. 'On the day of the blast I attended class at the Industrial Training Institute where I was enrolled, and when I was returning home I heard about the blasts'. In the wake of the blasts, the police went on a rampage, indiscriminately picking up Muslim youth. Some days later, Yakoob found himself in prison, where he was to spend almost the next ten years, much of it in solitary confinement in a small cage- like cell. 'I was accused of being in possession of explosive material, and of being associated with the Islamic group Al-Ummah, although I had never even heard its name.' In addition to routine torture, while in jail he was often abused for his religion. 'I would be beaten up if I wanted to say namaz. My torturers would tell me to face them while praying, rather than the Kaaba. They tore my Quran, and while beating me they would scream "Bharat Mata ki Jai"'. 'They ruined ten precious years of my life, my youth, falsely branding me as a terrorist', he says.

Yakoob Khan's friend, 34 year-old Shiv Kumar, alias Abdul Hamid, is a Hindu convert to Islam. He eked out as livelihood selling old newspapers and utensils for recycling. He was accused of being involved in the Coimbatore blasts, a charge that he denies. The police forced him to sign a blank piece of paper which they later filled out themselves, threatening him that if he refused to do so they would arrest his family as well. He was remanded to the Coimbatore jail on the basis of this forced 'confession' and his repeated applications for bails were rejected. Because he was the sole earner in his family, his wife was forced to beg in order to survive. He was finally acquitted only recently, after almost ten years in incarceration. 'I was mercilessly tortured in prison. I was constantly told that if I had not become a Muslim and had remained a Hindu I would not have been beaten like this', he says.

Shabbir Masiulllah Ansari was picked up by the Mumbai Crime Branch in August 2006, but he was soon released on bail for 'lack of evidence'. Yet, he was charged anew for being allegedly the 'mastermind' of the Malegaon mosque blasts, while, it is said, that at the time the blasts took place he was actually in police custody. He continues to languish in jail and has suffered routine torture, including acid being thrown on his private parts. In the course of torture he was coerced into making a forced confession, but he later retracted this in court.

Maulana Muhammad Zahid is originally from Malegaon. Some two years ago, at the time of the Malegaon bomb blast, he was in Phul Savangi, a village 500 km away from Malegaon, where he used to lead the prayers in a mosque. The police implicated him in the blast, although his relatives insist he is innocent. When he was produced before the magistrate in Mumbai Esplanade Court, he gave a statement listing the torture that was done to him and also the false statement on which the police had taken his signature. The magistrate ignored his plea and asked for the police produced statement and accepted that as evidence. He still languishes in prison.

Faisal Attaur Shaikh and Muzammil Attaur Rehman Shaikh are among the thirteen Muslims charged for the 11 July 2006 Bombay local train blasts. The police accused Faisal of being a commander of Lashkar-e Tayyeba and of setting off the blast. They also claimed to have recovered maps of Mumbai and some CDS from Muzammil. In October 2006, 11 out of the 13 accused in the case gave their confession, but later retracted it in the sessions' court. It is alleged that almost all the accused were subjected to brutal torture, which forced them to confess to crimes they said they had not committed. It is claimed that 11 out of the 13 accused could not endure the torture and finally agreed to whatever story the police fabricated. This is why their confession stands retracted.

33 year-old Kalim Ahmed Karimi used to manage a small radio repair business in Ahmedabad. On 3rd April, 2003 he had gone out to get some medicines for his pregnant wife who was unwell. The police picked him up and he never came back. Although Kalim was arrested on the 3rd April from Ahmedabad, the CBI states that they arrested him on the 26th of April in Andhra Pradesh. He was charged with being allegedly involved in the Tiffin Bomb Blast case, the Haren Pandya murder case and a 'jihadi' conspiracy. Thereafter, he was sentenced to 14 years imprisonment for the Haren Pandya murder case and to 10 years in the Tiffin Bomb Blast case.

Says his 70 year-old father, Habib Karimi, 'My son is innocent. Officials of the crime branch picked me up for questioning. Under duress, I was forced to sign some blank papers that they presented me with. They told me that I should not contact any lawyer and that they had men keeping an eye on me. I was also told not to forget that they had my signatures on blank sheets. My son has been tortured brutally and he has been forced to sign a confession. He and some others have narrated the experience of torture and forced confessions before the POTA Judge Sonia Gokani.'

Junaid is a final year student at Unani Medical College, Hyderabad, and president of the student union. He was picked up on the 3rd of September 2007 while returning to his home. He was produced before the magistrate on 8th of September 2007. Police claim that he was apprehended at Nampally railway station on the 8th of September. He was accused of conspiring against the state, which he vehemently denied. The argument given by the police was that some literature was found in his possession. While in custody he was subjected to heavy electric shocks, including on his private parts, and was coerced into making a forced confession. During his interrogation he was constantly rebuked for having shouted slogans against police violence. They asked him why he raised questions regarding the Sohrabuddin fake encounter and why he attended a conference against it. They even asked him why Muslims have so many children. For two days he was not given anything to eat. His face was kept covered in a black cloth throughout this ordeal. A shoe was stuffed in his mouth and he was told to read the Quran in that condition. In order to further humiliate him he was forced to shout 'Jai Shri Ram'.

24 year-old Aftab Alam Ansari, the only bread-earner in his 10- member lower middle class family, and an employee of the Calcutta Electric Supply Corporation, was picked up by the police and taken to Lucknow. 'I was badly tortured with iron rods by drunken policemen who accused me of being a Bangladeshi. I was forced to declare that my name was actually Altaf Muletar and that I was responsible for the bombings in Sankat Mochan Mandir and the Courts in Lucknow. Of course I had nothing whatsoever to do with these.'

Aftab was then sent to the civil jail in Lucknow where he was stripped and was imprisoned for twenty two days. 'I was accused of being the area commander of the Harkat ul-Jihad al-Islami, although I had never even heard of this outfit. My interrogators heaped abuses on Muslims and Islam.'

'They are targeting us just because we are Muslims', Aftab says. 'They want to falsely implicate us in terror cases so that our image gets tarnished and people start hating Muslims.' Like many other innocent Muslim youths who have been picked up and brutally tortured by interrogating agencies and then released for lack of any evidence, Aftab received no compensation for the enormous amount of money his family spent on securing his release. Nor has the state compensated him in any way for the damage to his health caused by the torture in prison. Nor has he received any sort of apology.

Scores more Muslim men and women testified at this public hearing, narrating the harrowing brutalities that they or their relatives have been subjected to, being, so they insisted, unfairly blamed for various terror acts. Predictably, though, the so-called mainstream Indian media took little notice of the hearing, the first of its kind in the country. Nor, for their part, did major political parties and state authorities. As Ghadr, the popular cultural activist from Andhra Pradesh who addressed the gathering, rightly put it, 'To expect anything else from the media and the establishment is folly. The answer lies not in simply narrating our woes but initiating a mass movement against this sort of oppression.'

Sukhia Sab Sansar Khaye Aur Soye
Dukhia Das Kabir Jagey Aur Roy

The world is 'happy', eating and sleeping
The forlorn Kabir Das is awake and weeping
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide