The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism

Chobis Avatar - accounts of twenty-four incarnations of the Vishnu, according to the Hindus, and Brahrnavatar and Rudravtdr, selected because of their warlike character

This is the name given to the seventh Bani in the second holy scriptures of the Sikhs called the Dasam Granth. This text spans from page 643 to page 1343 of the 1478 pages (at the www.gobindsadan.org site) for this holy book of the Sikhs. (Original text is over 1428 pages)

CHAUBIS AVTAR, a collection of twenty four legendary tales of twentyfour incarnations of the god Visnu, forms a part of Bachitra Natak, in Guru Gobind Singh's Dasam Granth. The complete work contains a total of 4,371 verseunits of which 3,356 are accounted for by Ramavtar and Krishnavtar. The shortest is Baudh Avatar comprising three quatrains, and the longest is Krishnavtar, with 2,492 verseunits, mostly quatrains. The introductory thirtyeight chaupais or quatrains refer to the Supreme Being as unborn, invisible but certainly immanent in all objects. Whenever evil predominates, saviours of the humanity or avatars emerge by His hukam, i.e. order, to reestablish righteousness. They fulfil His will and purpose. Kal Purash who creates them ultimately subsumes them all in himself. The poet asserts his monotheistic belief here and while enumerating the avatars discountenances any possibility of their being accepted as the Supreme Being, i.e. Akal Purakh. In the epilogue to one of the episodes in Krishnavtar occurs a statement repudiating the worship of popular deities like Ganesa, Krsna and Visnu (verses 43440). The Supreme Being, called in the Guru's authentic idiom, Mahakal (the Supreme Lord of Time) is acknowledged as the Succourer to whom prayer is made to keep operative the defensive might (tegh) and dispensing of charity (deg). Thus is set forth the basic principle of the Sikh faith amid a long literary exercise. The poet asserts that he, having descended from the martial Ksatriyas, cannot think of adopting the attitude of a recluse towards the disturbed conditions of his time. The greater part of the tales of Ramavtar and Kn'sAnavtar are taken up with battlescenes evoked through many alliterative devices with the clash and clang of arms constantly reproduced. At the close of Krishnavtar, in a kind of postscript, is proclaimed the crusader's creed, which is ever "to remember God, to contemplate holy war; and, unmindful of the destruction of the perishable body, to embark the boat of noble repute."

I am sure Delhi paaji you have not read the Chaubees Avataar by Guru Gobind Singh!!

Your Sikhi is related to the SGPC literature - which is pathetic!!

Re: # 46

wrong Delhi Paji,

Khalsitan is a SEMITIC interpretation of Sikhi and uses the logic of TNT.

The idea of Sikh being soooooooo distinguishible from hindus is the basis of Khalis-thani TNT.

It solely relies upon One-Dog, Last-Prophet, Sunnat-code-of-SGPC agenda and then adds an anti-idolatory hatred of Semitic religions.

A muslim convert to Sikhism is more likely to follow such a formulation- NOT AN ORIGINAL HINDU follower of sikhi!!

I am not going to fall into the trap of this guy called laddu, obviously he is a paid to be on Chowk.

Jab ye gye Vipran ki Reet mai na karoon inki parteet....
- Guru Gobind Singh Jee

Many chapters in Dasam Granth are translations of Purans in verbatim.

BTW, Dasam Granth never was considered book to be worshipped. It is a historic account of land where Guru Gobind Singh lived.

you dont even have to go to Dasam Granth, even SGGSJ has thousands of references to Hindu Gods and also Muslim faith.

Muslims are not claiming Sikhs to be Muslims.

Also, even if let us say Sikhi is tied up to Hindus what has that go to do with Khalistan.

Why are France, Italy, Belgium, Germany separate countries when they all follow same faith and Pope?

Why does many Islamic countries exist even if they have same religion?

Why is Nepal a separate country when it a Hindu nation?

Laddu: your logic is weak.

So, a keshdhari DEFINES Sikhi??

what BS!!!

It is these Dhakosale baaj who are spoiling Sikhi and turning it into some sort of a Sunnat-baji!!

Guru Nanak was against all these dhakosale-baji and rightly considered externalities like yajnopavita as NOT a defining feature of a hindu.

If Guru Nanka was alive today he would REFUSE to call himself a Sikh as defined by SGPC!!!

Once again RSS is at work, this idiot is quoting the lines from Kishan Avatar but the conclusion of the chapter.

Laddu: If you like Guru Gobind Singh Jee so much, why dont you obey what he asked Sikhs to do, i.e. to take Amrit and 5Ks.
Will you do it? you dont have to be a Khalistani.

So, What has Ram and Sita and all those hindu deities to do with Semitic understanding of Sikhism as a one-dog religion??

Here is from Bichitra Nataka-

Founding of Lahore and Kasur:

ਸੀਅ ਸ�ਤ ਬਹ�ਰ ਭ� ਦ�ਇ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਰਾਜ ਪਾਟ ਉਨਹੀ ਕਉ ਛਾਜਾ ॥
Then the two sons of Sita (and Rama) became rulers.

ਮੱਦ�ਰ ਦੇਸ �ਸ�ਵਰਜਾ ਬਰੀ ਜਬ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕੇ ਜੱਗ ਕੀ� ਤਬ ॥੨੩॥
They married the Madra (Punjabi) princesses and performed various types of yajnas.23.

ਤਹੀ ਤਿਨੇ ਬਾਂਧੇ ਦ�ਇ ਪ�ਰਵਾ ॥ �ਕ ਕਸੂਰ ਦ�ਤੀਯ ਲਹ�ਰਵਾ ॥
There they founded two cities, the one Kasur and the other Lahore.

The descendants of Lava and Kusha become Sodhis

ਜਿਨੈ ਬੇਦ ਪਠਿਓ ਸ� ਬੇਦੀ ਕਹਾ� ॥ ਤਿਨੈ ਧਰਮ ਕੇ ਕਰਮ ਨੀਕੇ ਚਲਾ� ॥
Those who studied the Vedas, called , they absorbed themselves in good acts of righteousness.

ਪਠੇ ਕਾਗਦੰ ਮੱਦ�ਰ ਰਾਜਾ ਸ�ਧਾਰੰ ॥ ਅਪੋ ਆਪ ਮੋ ਬੈਰ ਭਾਵੰ ਬਿਸਾਰੰ ॥੧॥
The Sodhi king of Madra Desha (Punjab) sent letters to them, entreating them to forget the past enmities.1.

ਨ�ਰਿਪੰ ਮ�ਕਲਿਅੰ ਦੂਤ ਸੋ ਕਾਸਿ ਆਯੰ ॥ ਸਬੈ ਬੇਦਿਯੰ ਭੇਦ ਭਾਖੇ ਸ�ਨਾਯੰ ॥
The messengers sent by the king came to Kashi and gave the message to all the Bedis.

ਸਬੈ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠੀ ਚਲੇ ਮੱਦ�ਰ ਦੇਸੰ ॥ ਪ�ਰਣਾਮੰ ਕੀਯੋ ਆਨ ਕੈ ਕੈ ਨਰੇਸੰ ॥੨ ॥
All the reciters of the Vedas came to Madra Desha and made obeisance to the king.2.

Sacrifice of Guru Teg Bahadur

ਹਰਿਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪ�ਰਭ ਲੋਕ ਸਿਧਾਰੇ ॥ ਹਰੀਰਾਇ ਤਿਹ ਠਾਂ ਬੈਠਾਰੇ ॥
When Hargobind left for the abode of the Lord, Har rai was seated in his place.

ਹਰੀਕ�ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸ�ਤ ਵ� ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭ� ॥੧੨॥
Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ�ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread (of the Hindus) which marked a great event in the kali age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸ� ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sigh.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸ� ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰ� ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.

DMSir,
My last post is not a reflection on you.

But in defence of people like me(not that I need to defend myself on chowk from anyone).

Anything that defines Sikhi, Gurudwara, Kirtan, meditation, langar, sewa, Itihass, you name it....
Comes from Keshdhari, pooran Gursikhs.

When was the last time you heard a modern, Sehajdhari, Nirankari, Mina, RSS-stamped or anything else but pooran Sikh; gave shahadat or sacrifice.

Will any Sehajdhari Sikh come to a Gurudwara at 4am(Amritvela) and do 5 prayers(or that also is questionable now)?

Will any non Pooran Sikh, recite Kirtan and Akhand-Path(or that is also deemed ritual)?

Would they give their heads for a cause that is just and right like Bhati Sati das, Mati Das or Guru Arjan, Tegh Bahadar, Guru Gobind Singh Jee?


Anytime I go to a congregation where there are these so called non-practicing Sikhs(including my own brothers), all I see is social aspect, eat free food, throw in a Dollar in box, look around people, who is who, how influential in social ladder, make friends, talk politics, go to Langar hall and walk away.

GurSikhs(practicing Keshdharis) will clean up the hall, donate money to keep these Gurudwaras running(what inspired an outsider like BJ), wash the floor(if that is ritual replace with vaccum clean).

When there is an issue of Sikhs being targetted at the Airport or anywhere else, it is the Kesh Dharis who go to the Governmental Offices and protest and secure our freedom and rights.

Where are the so called modern Sikhs then, name their works and contributions, besides taking grants from Institutions and Universities and write questionable books mirrored after Western way of life.

It has become a fashion to question anything that looks like an eye-sore(Kesh Dhari Sikh) because that is so not-modern.

ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰ� ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸ�ਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥
ਨ ਡਰੋਂ ਅਰਿ ਸੋ ਜਬ ਜਾਇ ਲਰੋਂ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਪ�ਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕਰੋਂ ॥
ਅਰ� ਸਿਖ ਹੋਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਕੌ ਇਹ ਲਾਲਚ ਹਉ ਗ�ਨ ਤਉ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥
ਜਬ ਆਵ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿ ਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂ� ਮਰੋਂ ॥੨੩੧॥ [1]

देह शिवा बर मोहे ईहे, श�भ कर�मन से कभ�ं न टरूं
न डरौं अरि सौं जब जाय लड़ौं, निश�चय कर अपनी जीत करौं,
अर� सिख हों आपने ही मन कौ इह लालच हउ ग�न तउ उचरों,
जब आव की अउध निदान बनै अति ही रन मै तब जू� मरों ॥२३१॥

"Lord! By creating Durga, you have caused destruction of demons. Rama received power from you to kill Ravana with arrows. Krishna received power from you to threw down Kansa by catching his hair. The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages; do not know your limits."

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦ�ਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ� ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲ� ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰ� ਘਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲ� ਕ�ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸ� ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲ� ਕ�ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸ� ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮ�ਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜ�ਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨ� ਤਾਇਆ ॥
ਕਿਨੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤ� ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

Guru Gobind Singh rightly acknowledges the truth of hindu Gods and Godesses.

Any one who reads Semitic-ideology of idol breaking one-dog religion needs to get his khalistani head checked.

It is sad to see this Tamasha-Thread, coming from all but any practicing Sikh.

Like vultures they attack Sikhi on Internet...wow.

BTW, what this idiot calls "sunnat code from SGPC." was hand-written by Guru Gobind Singh Jee in his own hand writing in many forms.

SGPC merely consolidated it in 1920ies.

paid goons of various affilitations have lots of spare time on internet....

Re: # 25

You are wrong the Akalis were in the forefront of Anti-emergency movement no doubt influenced by the need to balance centre-state relations but their commitment to the anti-emergency cause was exemplary.

1 reason why she hated sikhs esp Akalis was the fact they would not genuflect to her the way the others did.

Aur aaj kal ke sardar dekho like dhakkans singing Singh is King they forget Darbaris are not Kings.

Sanatani

Re: # 12

1. fullfil their mission of crusading against caste system and rituals that has victimized indians for centuries. Rest of india has finally awakened to this and we need to celebrate this and facilitate the process with right attitude and behavior. More on that later.

The way you are putting is like that only the sikhs have fought against wrong practices this is most emphatically not correct historically and today 1 does not see the Sikhs/Khalsa crusading against any social wrong. Where is the Akal Takht/SGPC w.r.t to Bride Burning or Female Foetcide or even cow slaughter. However the SGPC is in the forefront of not allowing a girl to join a Sikh run medical college on the speciuous ground that she plucks her eyeberows.

2. we need numbers for our own physical protection (1984?) as well as protection of the faith. I agree with some folks who say that sikhism can easily go the way of budhism, if we leave to our lazy crazy ritualistic indian society to its own devices. Previous life/next life brain washing has permanently impacted lowest strata of the masses (even if middle and upper class becomes westernized or adopts modern aggressive activist life style, their rate of growth is going to be easily swamped by the growth of those poor with older beliefs).

Boss if you cannot get out of your Jutt/Khatri infighting where will you get the numbers. Please see my previous posts on the Bengalis and SC's wanting to get baptised as Sikhs which met with no encouragement from the Khalsa themselves. 1 more example here after the Moplah riots the Arya Samaj (Yes the arya samaj) primarily of western UP and the west Punajab took the initiative to get 1 son of Hindu families who had more than 1 son to be baptised as Khalsa after around a 100 or so conversions the same stopped as the SGPC was unwilling to have the Adi Granth transalated into Malayalam as a result most of thes guys lapsed back as Hindus except for 3 who stayed Khalsa and the last one died in 1999 and there was an article about him in the Hindu Chennai edition.

Today you have Sikh missionaries trying to get Blacks and whites in America and Europe to convert to the Khalsa but none in Tamil Nad and Orrisa (where it would be much easier).

On numbers and on 1984 you are forgetting that the very same RSS/VHP you deride were in the forefront of protecting Sikhs from Congressi mobs (and please get this right congressi mobs not Hindus ones). If you were actually true to the Guru's injuctions (implied) then the Khalsa as a panth within the larger Hindu Samaj would never have to have any worries about protection. Let me illustarte this in a skightly different way when you revered mother married your father who was then a Hindu would she have to change her name from say Jasbir Kaur to Savitri Bai but if she had married a Muslim or Xtian the same would have to happen and similarly hardly any Hindu would object to getting married via the Anand Karaj but no muslai or isai would agree on the same. Just as being Paki can never be not Indian being Sikh should never come down to not-Hindu.

So i think there is some soul searching to be done by the Khalsa themselves on where do they stand vis-a-vis the Hindu society at large. I most emphaticall reject that we wish to swallow the Sikh panth but at the same time the Sikh attitude towards us when we wish to do Seva in the Gurdwara is patronising to say the least (the behaviour is that it is a Sikhdwara).

Experience 1 thing which a Tamil lady told one of my distant cousins who is Keshdhari if any Indian anywhere in India where he has a language barrier or is a stranger say a Tamil in Assam the 1st person he would ask for help/ directions would be a Sardar as despite all what has happened the Pug and Kesh remain the greatest symbol of Trust in India.

Sanatani

BTW this criticism some true some due to a form of aggrievement is from a person who's eldest son has taken the Khande ka Pahul and who refused marriage offers from some very beautiful Sardarnis as he never wanted his decision made in 1984 as a 16 year old (when the Harmandir was shelled) ever to be thought to have being made under somebody elses guidance/influence

Re: # 30 Mr.Sanatani..... As old fashioned person feel people should marry their own type people.Now tigers and lions look same type people but their religion/way/culture/habits different and they do not marry each other. So opposed to love marriage Tamasha for communal hormony. Now most normal husband and wife quarrel many time and man has to discipline different religion wife can lead tension.If woman beats man what man can do ?
How people married different hindu or Sikh at that time when men or women did not court before ? Or it was kind of like punishment for bad deeds of one family to compensate as done now.
About children what they will take down is difficult say but in north hemisphere all rivers go down , degradation is nature of things. Nature does not allow to pick up good things. We never pick up control and being nice but we pick up liquior and drugs. Like all deshis marrying white people children pick up bad qualities like dark color skin reason is water always goes down and it findest steepest slope to go down. now things are changing landscape is changing and vertical and horizontal integratinon is going on. Now I am for one or step down or up or little horizontal movement but anybody marrying anybody is not good. Can both parties win in marriage or there is always ones loss and ones gain ? Do human hybrid is also good as in plants what science says. Some say you pick up best mother and father its kind of recist remak has any basis or is joke.
People are really strange when they are young. I had friend his name was Sherkhan and when angry he will say remember mai Sher Ka Bachha hay. There was very vulger man in quarrel he asked tell me your mother went to forest or sher came to vist her home. Being timid I just ran away but sher khan was hurt badly. Sorry for such story.

Any do not understand in old days how they married different say hindu and sikh and accepted or most couple ran away and others were afraid of british govt to troubles them specially all punjabis went to military job and were afraid of military court ? To marry hindu was was upgradation or degradation ? ( Like if desi marries white it is upgradation for deshi and downfall for white.)
Good day

{"The process of circumscribing Sikhism with ever tightening boundaries is not yet over. There is sometimes talk of tightening the definition even further to exclude those who have cut their hair or are not baptized as amritdhari. If the talk turns into action, this definition would exclude the overwhelming majority of modern Sikhs from any new definition."}

DM Sahib,
Very informative article and I must say that this mad rush to "standardization" is bound to hurt all religions. The more purity one imposes the more adulterated one's faith becomes.