The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism

Kaure , chandigarh ajja tenu DARU pilawanga.!!

[The truth hasn't been so bitter! watch out!]

Good Lord! Ole Kaura is going to come up with another one of his SikhoN ke Guru wala article!

Wahey Guruji -- thoaDa raham kar!

kaurasach#175:

Glad you showed up. Were missing you here.

You call the article hogwash. So, now it is up to you show where are any fallacies in it, so that I can make corrections.

i have heard this bukwas of sikhi as hindu body muslim soul...blah blah blah.....these are redundant statements that are good to hear.....but are lies.....

it will be pointless exercise on deaf ears to counter this bukwas; i have free time, i am going to set the history straight!

The truth hasn't been so bitter! watch out!

what a hogwash! Changing times and changing threats demand the boundaries to be clear and pollution to stop.

the mahants, according to one sakhi, were burnt alive.

these mahants converted Nankana Sahib into a whore house.

these mahants brought in empty rituals of Hinduism into sikhism.

the "hindu/sikhs" are the reason sikhism has suffered. If in past, hindus and sikhs didn't have distinct identity, doesn't mean that sikhism in order to survive, and stop degenratitve forces from polluting it, can take measures accordingly.

the so called sects are polluting sikhi in sikhi's name.

this article is a piece of rubbish and hogwash.... a person illiterate in sikhism and sikhs' history will lap it up....those well versed in sikhism know better.

Q1) Are the Kesh/Amrit Dharis willing to give up their condescending/insulting attitude towars ok HIndus when it comes to doing Sewa in Gurudwaras. Ok Management in Gurudwaras is your the right to define rehat maryada yours everything yours but CAN THERE BE EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO SEWA. Though unwittingly their attitude has done 1 good thing personally to me it has shown me how Upper Caste Hindus behave with Dalits esp when it comes to religous/temple matters.

{I have never seen any condensing attitudes towards Hindus or Sehajdharis in any Gurudwara while they are visiting or doing SEWA. This is fictitious question to mis-lead the conversation(that is how it feels). There is an issue with Harmandir Sahib's caretakers not allowing woman and Non-Amridharis to perform Kirtan Sewa and I think that it needs to change. I have seen opposition to this requirement from all Sikhs everywhere, but by far and large over 98% of the Gurudwaras do not stop Non Keshdharis from doing SEWA)


2) Is the message of the Gurus for the Punjabis only or for Hindu society at large and should steps be taken to have ATTRACTION if not PROMOTION of this message.

{ Message of the Gurus is for all the people who are listening. Guru Ramdas described GurBani as Rain that falls everywhere regardless of region or caste, and at the same time considered Sanskrit verses as Water in a Matka that stays where it is - documented in puratan sakhis written over 300 years ago }

3) This is prompted by Laddu "and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh" may I humbly ask did the Guru ask anyone for this and should not the first four and a willingness to abide by Sikh Rehat maryada be enough. By this definition is the SGPC/Akal Takth not sitting on judgement on the Guru's Bani/Vachan.

{Guru Gobind Singh explicitly mandated his power to Panj, and took Amrit from them, and very clearly annointed Panj Pyaras to be his successor- well documented.
“En Panchan me hum kare niwas�. By that reasoning Sikh matters are decided, granted there is corruption in this process, but that was the last Guru's mandate, hence Panj take matters in their hand. It is this same reasoning that makes majority of the Sikhs to consider Amritdharis as Guru’s image(except on chowk), otherwise Amritdharis would have been rejected and disapproved long time ago. By Pablo’s comment; Amritdharis are only a fraction of Sikh population and they are controlling all Sikh matters then that would mean that 22 million Sikhs worldwide are powerless, helpless, idiots who are letting a fraction control everything. That is not the ground reality. Majority of Non Keshdharis actually support amritdharis role. Please check in the Gurudwaras(not on websites).
OTOH, SGPC's control of the Panj is a pure corruption/politicization, but you cannot negate what Guru Gobind Singh had mandated.
Panj+Sarbat Khalsa have the authority to alter certain things in the larger interest of the community, it has happened in the past}

4) This is prompted by you "they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus", is the mission of the Khalsa ONLY to be tonclaim their share of Hindus. Do the Sikhs feel they owe nothing to the Mother Religion from which they have taken so much for example things like Hindu Dharam Asmita and Hindu Samaj Sudhar. I for one have no objection to Hindus embracing Khalsa indeed I feel if a Hindu embraces the Khalsa truly inspired by Gurbani and Gurbachan then it shows progression but are the Sikhs now going to behave like the christus. To me the ideal would be that seeing the selfless example of the Khalsas around them inspired by their Sewa and seeing them live upto the Guru given concepts of Degh, Tegh, Fateh and Nischay Kar apne jeet karo and Kirit Karo vand Chakho naam Japo Hindus are attracted to and embrace the Khalsa. Can there be debate on this.
{All Sikh Gurus have pointed to the fact there is one God and all people are equal. Gurus have asked Sikhs for Dharam Yudh not nationalistic Patriotism. Concept of a country as we know it came much later. By Guru’s teachings Sikhs should treat a Hindu Muslim, Budhist and Christian with same perspective.
There is also a historic angle for Sikh’s disassociation from Hindus, While Mughals were outright enemies, Hindu Rajas and leaders(proponents of Snatanism) were always responsible for undermining and hurting Sikhs. Guru Arjan was martyred by Jahangir while Chandu was the vaqil of Lahore. Guru Gobind Singh fought more battles with Hindu Rajas who opposed Sikhs than he did with Mughals. After 1708, Hindu Rajas and leaders were always causing roadblocks for Sikhs in addition to Mughal atrocities – Jaswant Rai is one man who is responsible for one of the holocaust.
By far and large Sikhs feel insecure around Hinduism due to past record and evaporation of other minorities from India. I could sum it up as “Self Preservation�}

5) And finally when the wounds heal then at least can there be a debate on the larger relationship between Hindus and Sikhs.
{These matters do not get resolved by debates, proof is in the pudding. If no Sikh boy or girl in any part of India feels being ridiculed or made fun of in his/her appearance, or Sikhs are not portrayed in a negative or humorous manner, perceptions over a generation will change}

6) Furthermore Laddu has raised important points even if he has raised them impertinently they should not be glossed over.

7) Last not least please ask DW if he is condoning the murder of the Ravidasia just because he made a mistake.
{You are wrongly accusing me of some thing that I never said nor supported. Ravidasia is a Sikh just like me and there is no justification of Ramanand’s murder. Even Sikh clergy has condemned his murder. I was correcting the fact that he was killed not because he was of low caste but due to him being viewed as comparing himself as a Guru. None of these justify his murder, so please do not misquote me. I myself go to Ravidasia Gurudwara sometimes and I have not seen anything wrong being practiced there.}

laddu#170:

Don't you understand sarcasm?

Re: # 169

For the rest later but;

Sikhs have borrowed not only from Hindus but also from other religions. For example, they borrowed the concepts such as that of langar, covering head and, most importantly, the concept of the Sikh brotherhood akin to Umma from Islam. If you look at the Khanda saheb, it too looks similar to the insignia of Iran. I sometimes view Khalsa as a Hindu soul in a Muslim body.

Sikh brotherhood or Sangat is from Sangham in Buddhism as in Sangham Sharnam Gacchami as in todays Sangh the RSS and it is not meant as a facetious remark or a joke. The langar is from the concept of the cooked prasadam served in Mandirs as you will see in the south except the Gurus made it more humane and the covering of the head is a custom of the Hunas and those Huns who became Jat, Goojar and Rajputs were the per-Islamic adherents of the same. Please read Cold Todd's annals and antiquities of Rajpootana for a further clarification. The only Islamic injunction my neighbour came up with was the ban on idol worship till I showed him the Jains.

Please DM ji there is no Islam in Sikhism but as I said out of their innate goodness they accomodated frauds like farid.

Sanatani

Re: # 168
"Fifty years from now, anyone using bhagwati in ardas can then be ousted from the panth in the name of rehat-maryada"

As I suspected, you also have fallen prey to Abrahmic interpretation of Sikhi as idol-breaking religion.

Sanatani#162:

I did not misunderstand you. It's not you but there may be other Hindus who do not like idol worship or polytheism who would feel more comfortable in the Sikh panth than in Abrahmic faiths.

Delhiwala can certainly answer your questions, if he wants to. I can give my own opinion on some of the points you raised:


"1) Are the Kesh/Amrit Dharis willing to give up their condescending/insulting attitude towars ok HIndus when it comes to doing Sewa in Gurudwaras. Ok Management in Gurudwaras is your the right to define rehat maryada yours everything yours but CAN THERE BE EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO SEWA. Though unwittingly their attitude has done 1 good thing personally to me it has shown me how Upper Caste Hindus behave with Dalits esp when it comes to religous/temple matters."

Frankly, I do not have much knowledge on what is going on inside gurudwaras in India. As for the sewa part, our local gurudwara does not stop anyone from doing sewa.

"2) Is the message of the Gurus for the Punjabis only or for Hindu society at large and should steps be taken to have ATTRACTION if not PROMOTION of this message."

In my opinion, the message is universal and is not restricted to Punjabis or even Hindus. And I would be happier if the Akal Takht spend more time, energy and resources in promoting the message than in issuing hukumnamas.

"3) This is prompted by Laddu "and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh" may I humbly ask did the Guru ask anyone for this and should not the first four and a willingness to abide by Sikh Rehat maryada be enough. By this definition is the SGPC/Akal Takth not sitting on judgement on the Guru's Bani/Vachan."

I would go further and get rid of this rehat-maryada business, which the Akal Takht is using as a danda to stifle opposition to them.

"4) This is prompted by you "they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus", is the mission of the Khalsa ONLY to be tonclaim their share of Hindus. Do the Sikhs feel they owe nothing to the Mother Religion from which they have taken so much for example things like Hindu Dharam Asmita and Hindu Samaj Sudhar. I for one have no objection to Hindus embracing Khalsa indeed I feel if a Hindu embraces the Khalsa truly inspired by Gurbani and Gurbachan then it shows progression but are the Sikhs now going to behave like the christus. To me the ideal would be that seeing the selfless example of the Khalsas around them inspired by their Sewa and seeing them live upto the Guru given concepts of Degh, Tegh, Fateh and Nischay Kar apne jeet karo and Kirit Karo vand Chakho naam Japo Hindus are attracted to and embrace the Khalsa. Can there be debate on this."

Sikhs have borrowed not only from Hindus but also from other religions. For example, they borrowed the concepts such as that of langar, covering head and, most importantly, the concept of the Sikh brotherhood akin to Umma from Islam. If you look at the Khanda saheb, it too looks similar to the insignia of Iran. I sometimes view Khalsa as a Hindu soul in a Muslim body.

"5) And finally when the wounds heal then at least can there be a debate on the larger relationship between Hindus and Sikhs."

I hope so.

laddu#161:

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Akal Takht approves of the changes in ardas by the Finland gurudwara. The use of Bhagwati in ardas is an inconvenient link with Hinduism and does not fit well with the new orthodoxy of Sikhism. Instead of trying to reinterpret it by saying that Bhagwati represents kirpan or bandook, the Akal Takht may accept the modification and create a new rehat-maryada. Fifty years from now, anyone using bhagwati in ardas can then be ousted from the panth in the name of rehat-maryada.

Re: # 165

I am sorry sir what I did not add as a caveat was any of the verses written by the Gurus where the term used for god used is instead of Ram Krishan Hari as Allah. It would include that writing of Nanak where he talks of who the muslims are.

To give a sense I could write Ishwar, Bhagwan, Parmatama, Ram Krishna Hari as a word for the almighty but I would not use allah for god neither do the Gurus. Also as said earlier this is one of their two errors that tey accepted Islam as a religion not bothering to study its source and its teachings to understand what it truly was a perverse, murderous, political, philosophy the typical smug Hindus that they were. Had they done so the response would have been very different.

Sanatani

Re: # 163

Ok also Fen Singh ji,

Let me answer this question according to what you have said. Both the Bible and Koran have reference to jewish prophets. Now what does the Bible say that this is a continuation of the line of Prophets from Judaism and Jesus is the end of the line and brought the final message. Islam says the thing w.r.t to muhammed and both talk of how the last guy perfected the message. The 1 crucial difference being christ does not mention the word christianity but mohammed does Islam.

Regarding the Gurus they make no claim other than being Gurus. They berate the people for their ossification and pseudo religoustic obsessions. They redisitll the ancient books and present them in the people's tongue. While they present new truths they do not call the old ones false in that sense they are no different from the many thousands of sages and Reformers of Hindu Dharam. All the Shiromanis were amongst the greatest masters of Veds and Vedant. They never claimed a break from Dharam. Indeed the last master who was the most learned of them (in fact Shri 1007 Dashmesh was more learned than the first 9 put together) and he put together in his own inimitable style the great ancient traditions and treasures in the realmof the common man.

Now what he SGPC/Akalis and the Akal Takth are saying none of that please we are not a continuation of the past neither have we anything to do with it.

Sanatani

Vaise boss see the irony Sanatani comes from Sanatan another word for the same is Akal thus I am also Akali

bhijjeo sijjeo kambli allah barseo meh
jaye milaN tinhaN sajjnaN tuttey nahiN neh
(Farid)

Awwal allah noor upaaya kudrat key sabh bandey
ek noor tey sabh jagg upajeya kaun bhaley ko mande
(Kabir)

just to show that word 'allah' is tere in Guru Granth Sahib (not to support or negate any arguement in the ongoing discussion at this stage)

Re: # 163

I challenge you to show me the word Allah in either the Adi or Dasham Granths.

This is the problem with you people. You attribute motives where none exist e.g. Guru Nanak started the Sikh Panth as a bridge between Hindusim and Islam. When and where has either Prathamesh or any of his Sakhis imply this motive to him. Do any of the subsequent Guru's refer to this as Baba Nanak's defining mission. Do Prithi Chand and Lakshmi Chand not go through the ceremony get their janeyu do they not marry according to Hindu rites in the Khatri subcastes of the Bedis following the marriage principles of our caste.

Again why do you try and compare Bhartiye and Abrahamic traditions. At no point of time are the Gurus trying to break Dharam they are trying to remove ossification and impurities. Our mind has been so poluted by this Macaulayite system of education that we are not able to see our own heritage and tradition through our own perspective.

Best Regards

Re # 126

Sanatani,
Think about what your'e saying and how silly it looks. I mean the Guru Granth also refers to god as 'allah'...so does that mean that sikhs are muslims ? The christian bible contains hundreds of references to jewish prophets.....so does that mean christianity doesn't really exist ?....its just part of judaism ?