The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism

Re: # 156

DM Ji,

As you do not put words in other people's mouths I thinkyou have misunderstood what I was saying. Their is no opposition to idol worship for me and for the most ( in fact it is my attachment to the same and the fact that I claim all of the Hindu heritage as my own from Kahsmir to Kanya Kumari and from Pragjotishpur (Assam) & Manipur to Gandhar) and the Sikhs claim of exclusivity that prevented me from becoming Amritdhari. Again it is not the caste system but Caste Oppression and Caste superiority I have opposed, Dashmesh's statement har Jaat Saman Har Jaat Mahaan is nothing short of revolutionary and indicates the heightened awaremes (Yogic state of a Hindu Sage). At the same time I take back what I said and agree with what you said that today Sikhs and Hindus are separate however personally painful the same is to me.

But if you meet Delhiwala please ask him the following as he refuses to answer my posts:

1) Are the Kesh/Amrit Dharis willing to give up their condescending/insulting attitude towars ok HIndus when it comes to doing Sewa in Gurudwaras. Ok Management in Gurudwaras is your the right to define rehat maryada yours everything yours but CAN THERE BE EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO SEWA. Though unwittingly their attitude has done 1 good thing personally to me it has shown me how Upper Caste Hindus behave with Dalits esp when it comes to religous/temple matters.

2) Is the message of the Gurus for the Punjabis only or for Hindu society at large and should steps be taken to have ATTRACTION if not PROMOTION of this message.

3) This is prompted by Laddu "and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh" may I humbly ask did the Guru ask anyone for this and should not the first four and a willingness to abide by Sikh Rehat maryada be enough. By this definition is the SGPC/Akal Takth not sitting on judgement on the Guru's Bani/Vachan.

4) This is prompted by you "they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus", is the mission of the Khalsa ONLY to be tonclaim their share of Hindus. Do the Sikhs feel they owe nothing to the Mother Religion from which they have taken so much for example things like Hindu Dharam Asmita and Hindu Samaj Sudhar. I for one have no objection to Hindus embracing Khalsa indeed I feel if a Hindu embraces the Khalsa truly inspired by Gurbani and Gurbachan then it shows progression but are the Sikhs now going to behave like the christus. To me the ideal would be that seeing the selfless example of the Khalsas around them inspired by their Sewa and seeing them live upto the Guru given concepts of Degh, Tegh, Fateh and Nischay Kar apne jeet karo and Kirit Karo vand Chakho naam Japo Hindus are attracted to and embrace the Khalsa. Can there be debate on this.

5) And finally when the wounds heal then at least can there be a debate on the larger relationship between Hindus and Sikhs.

6) Furthermore Laddu has raised important points even if he has raised them impertinently they should not be glossed over.

7) Last not least please ask DW if he is condoning the murder of the Ravidasia just because he made a mistake.

Sanatani

When Khalaistani -Ulemas want to Semitize Sikhi into one-dog religion this is what they do- they abuse Shri obind Singh saheb. They even try to create a Seimitic Praody of daily ARDAS by mutilating the tradition,

shame upon this Khalistani Ulemas-

"Finland gurdwara faces Takht action for changes in ardas
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, May 24
Peeved over a change in the ardas (Sikh prayer) by a gurdwara in Finland, Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar of Akal Takht, has decided to call a meeting of the Sikh clergy at Akal Takht Secretariat for taking a strict action as per maryada against the persons responsible for the violation of the Sikh code.

The gurdwara of Finland kicked off a row by taking a unanimous decision to replace the first line of the ardas from “Pritham Bhaugauti simar ke….� to “Akal Purakh simar ke….� Moreover, the gurdwara added to the ardas the mention of the 35 Bhagtas whose holy verses are included in Guru Granth Sahib.

As approved by the SGPC and Akal Takht, the Sikh prayer begins with “Pritham Bhaugauti simar ke… (first remembering sword).

The ardas mainly comprises three parts. It begins with holy verses by describing the role of the first nine Gurus in relation to God, then about Guru Gobind Singh, followed by the important milestones in the Sikh history.

Thereafter, it includes a plea to God for grace on the whole of the humanity and the Khalsa and ends with the purpose of the gathering. Although on most of the occasions the whole of the ardas is recited, at certain occasions a shorter version of it is recited.

Meanwhile, Sikhs in Finland have objected to the change in the first stanza of the ardas. One of them said: “I don’t mind the 35 Bhagtas in the ardas, but the first part is from Guru Gobind Singh’s Dasam Bani, Chandi Di Vaar and hence could not be changed�.

Akal Takht has received a number of petitions from across the world describing the act of the Finland gurdwara as “a gross violation of the Sikh maryada�. They have said the “self-styled Sikh scholars� did not know that “Bhaugauti� is not the name of any god or goddess but means “kirpan� (sword worn by a baptised Sikh).

The Jathedar has appealed to the Sikh sangat not to get carried away by the violation of the Sikh code by the Finland gurdwara."

Re: # 153

"Very rarely you will see Sehajdharis in that role(most of the gurudwaras have no restriction on this who can or cannot do this Sewa). Singing Kirtan, not many sehajdharis do so(in comparison), there is no one stopping them."

This is incorrect. Look into the "maryada" circulated by SGPC. Those who are not a 'Sikh', as per the definition of SGPC,cannot sing any shabad of Gurus in congregation -

"
a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation. "

here is the definition of Sikhi-

"he Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh
"

here is the tricky part -

"..the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru..."

dw#153:

No apologies necessary. You are merely expressing your views.

#157

I am totally against violence to resolve ideological issues and hence condemned this murder of this sant baba. BUT I have to agree with dilli that if a Jatt baba sat next to SGGS and worshiped by followers, these hard liners would be as much against him.
There are hundreds of babas in Punjab who are worshiped/matha take by their followers but they all know this sensitive point and don't sit next to SGGS to do that.

DM, it was a wrong choice of wording. My apologies...
It was posted from my blackberry in haste.

I meant to ask was where is the issue/conflict of Sehajdharis versus Keshdhari+Amritdhari?

Where do you see the hot-spot that made you write this article?

BTW, Vienna issue, even though has been made to look like a Caste-divide matter by the media, but the people who killed the Ravidasia Baba, killed him because in their mind he was equating himself to the SGGSJ.

I dont think that they killed him because he was of low caste. these Radicals would have killed him, even if he belonged to a high caste, just like Nirankari Baba was killed(caste was not a factor then).

Caste did play a part in alienating Ravidasias to form separate Gurudwara otherwise.

Also, I wonder why Ramgarias have their own Gurudwaras too, they are not treated negatively, at least in my own view-point.

delhiwala#155:

Where have I condemned amritdharis? My father was an amritdhari and he did not have an iota of negativity towards anyone. He would have been aghast if anyone suggested to him that anyone who is not an amritdhari or a keshadhari is not a sikh. In fact, he would sometimes take out his harmonium on Krishan Janam-Ashtami and sing the shabad: "Saas saas japiye Gobind".

I think that there is nothing wrong in the Sikh clergy to encourage people to become amritdharis; indeed, as Sanatani has suggested, they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus who are unhappy with the Hindu caste system or idol worship.

Mr Pablo:
Issue has been discussed around for Keshdhari and Sehajdhari until now.
I am not an Amritdhari Sikh but I am a Keshdhari.

where am I doing castigation? I am merely posing a question because I could not pin point the specific issue instead condemning Amrtidharis by Laddo and the rest.
As far as Sehajdharis are concerned and their level of commitment to the existing/prevailing practice of SEWA in the Gurudwaras that is what I am benchmarking(based on observations). Does that bother you? Be specific please.
you are reaching at too many conclusions too fast.

deliwala....before you were talking about amritdhari....now you are talking about keshdari. Not the same. So who is the only true Sikhs, the amritdhari or the keshdari? If amritdari, then you have to automatically exclude 90% of Sikhs from the Sikh panth worldwide. You do a good job of non-stop castigation and belittling of sehajdharis.....it is a question of ever decreasing circles....I feel you will only be happy when there are maybe 100,000 Sikhs left in the world, because you suggested to everyone else to 'start their own religion'. Also think about that when living in the West, in America and so on, and when it comes to playing the numbers game, Sikh organisations and activists boast about X,000,000's of Sikhs, but when it doesn't suit their purpose, castigate and sneer and marginalise all non amritdhari Sikhs. Then the Sikh population will be in the tens of thousands.

DM:
That you know of, is there any independent group, collection of Sehajdhari Sikhs, that we are constantly talking about? Is that just a term? what is the issue here?

Do you personally have any grudge against the Sikhs definition and how does it bother you?
If there is enough momentum or demand then there are always means to achieve the result. After all Nirankaris are a separate faith.
If I was a sehajdhari and so motivated then I would do something about it and create my own version of the faith. That would be the logical thing to do.

Let others follow their own faith as they perceive it, i.e. Amritdharis.

Based on the practical experience of living in Sikh/Punjabi World. Sehajdharis, generally speaking are those who tend to stay away from the Gurudwaras or Religious matters.

In other words, there is no organized institution of Non-Gursikhs(5Ks).

One of the ritual of going to a Gurudwara is bowing to SGGSJ, then there has to be someone sitting on the Tabba.

Very rarely you will see Sehajdharis in that role(most of the gurudwaras have no restriction on this who can or cannot do this Sewa). Singing Kirtan, not many sehajdharis do so(in comparison), there is no one stopping them.

Sehajdhari Sikhs(pick Chowkies for example), how many of them go to the Gurudwara and do Sewa in comparison to Keshdharis?

In my experience for the most part Sehajdharis tend to stay away from Gurudwaras.

Frankly, I am not sure what the pitch or the issue is on behalf of Non-Keshdharis. It just seems to me that break everything around Sikhi, sow the seed of confusion and let it fall(this is very typical)

- Is it that Sikhi's definition itself is questionable? Upto what point, let us say for the sake of argument, 5Ks dont exist, then should SGGSJ be also removed, what is left then? Dasam Granth revers Hindu Gods, so Guru Gobind Singh Jee is pro-hindu, but his other order to wear 5Ks was only meant for very few people.

either way I skin this argument, from any what-so-ever perspective, it sounds hollow.

If I were attacking Sikhs intellectually, I would simply disown everything around all the Gurus except Guru Nanak.
But RSS cannot do so, because they have made 10th Guru as the pillar of Hindus.


- Amritdharis are evil and should be removed?
- Sehajdharis are also Sikhs, but Sikhs definition is not defined? Except people like Laddo and his Sanstha defines it.

So far what I have seen is negation of everything but not what is to be?

I am interested in listening from drlokraj, pablo and dullahbhatti.

Pablo#151:

Yes, I did read that article. I too am not pessimistic, except that the orthodoxy has a 'brahm-astra' of "panth khatre mein" which acts on the Sikh psyche in the same way that "islam in danger" works on the Muslim psyche. However, this brahm-astra is used only when akalis are not in power.

Dost Mittar did you read that article I posted written by Sathnam Sanghera who is a British journalist, what did you think about it.

You see he highlights something....that the levels of religious observance amongst Sikhs are so varied and heterodox and plural that it will go against the entire grain of Sikhs to try and homogenise it so much. At some level, institutional religion has to acknowledge and reflect the diversity of practise and that is why I am not pessimistic in the long term....you can't go against the easy-going, tolerant instincts and versatility of the mass number of Sikhs when it comes to the religion.

Dost # 147,


"I wouldn't be surprised if you are a troll posing as a Hindu"

You beat me in posting the same.

Adios

correction to #146:

"or even a dalit" should read "or even a dalit convert to Buddhism".

Re: # 146

"his essay is not about whether Sikhs are Hindus or not, but the right of a coterie of politicians to decide who has the right to call himself or herself a Sikh."

I am NOT claiming that Sikhs are hindus or some thing else. I am also questioning the claims of Amritdharis and all those self proclaimed jyanis, Sants and Mahatmas to be the sole custodian of defining Sikhi!!

ramchandar:

You are a sufficient reason for Sikhs to not only not consider themselves to be Hindus but also hate them. However, I wouldn't be surprised if you are a troll posing as a Hindu.