The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism

laddu, sanatani:

You are trying to use history to show how Sikhs are part of the Hindu family. One could accept that Sikh gurus were Hindus and that Sikhism started as a sect of Hindus and still believe that Sikhism now is a separate religion. As far as I know, Guru Nanak never renounced the religion of his birth. But then, neither did Buddha; despite giving a message very different from the reigning orthodoxy, Buddha was born and died a Hindu (or whatever his faith of birth was called then), yet try telling a Thai, a Cambodian or even a dalit that he is a Hindu and he will not accept it. Even Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism; Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew; yet who would claim that Jews and Christians are the same. I can give also the opposite example - Brahmo Samaj started out as a separate religion but very few Brahmo Samajis today would be considered as anything but Hindus. Religions evolve as has Sikhism.

This essay is not about whether Sikhs are Hindus or not, but the right of a coterie of politicians to decide who has the right to call himself or herself a Sikh.

Re: # 143

absolutely WRONG.

There are many Amritdharis who are worthy of respect, but recall there were many evil ones like Bhindrawale.

My point is that unlike what Delhiwala claims Amritdharis DO NOT DEFINE sikhi.

His harangue against sehajdharis is all nonsense and reeks of brahminical exclusivism and ritualism that Guru Nanka so preached against.

Ramchander, your posts are not worthy of your name. We have enough problems within our communities, why add more.

"If Guru Gobind Singh says that he was a hindu Yogi in the past life and was re-incarnated to save Hindu dharma then you accuse me of being a fanatic??"

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Laddu, my late grandfather was an amritdhari who went on pilgrimage to Hemkund Sahib. And yet according to you, he was, like all amritdharis, actually part of an 'Ulema' type of negationist. All you do is demonize amritdharis, and that is hysteria and fanaticism.

"Why Sikhs are suffering from small dick syndrome?"

+++++++

You're projecting your own complex onto others --- please see someone to deal with your issues.

Nice article by British journalist Sathnam Sanghera

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There were riots across northern India last week after a shooting at a Sikh temple in Austria resulted in the death of a sect leader and, given that Punjabi culture is something I bang on about on occasion, it wasn’t surprising, I suppose, that a couple of news producers rang, asking me to put the disturbances into context.

I declined because: (a) as a community we are only just learning to talk about ourselves, and too often any kind of commentary is taken as criticism; (b) commenting about religion is a dangerous business when people are being killed and one has absolutely no theological authority; (c) I feel about broadcasting the way many feel about general anaesthetic (you should do it only when you absolutely need to); but mainly because (d) it’s quite hard to explain what Sikhism actually stands for.

You see, one of the founding principles of the monotheistic religion, established in the late 15th century by Guru Nanak, was opposition to Hinduism’s oppressive caste system. Yet the world’s fifth largest organised religion has a caste system of its own, with differences between Jat Sikhs (a group that I belong to and which makes up about two thirds of Sikh society) and non-Jat castes, such as the Ramgarhias, remaining a source of political, social and religious tension.

Even in Britain you’ll find different Sikh temples belonging to different groups on the same road, and — according to some media reports last week, many of them disputed by the groups involved — the violence in Austria was sparked after orthodox Sikhs from one caste objected to preachers from another caste being disrespectful towards the Sikh Holy Book.

Related Links
Riots after Sikh guru shot dead in Vienna
From Punjab to Putney: the rise of British Sikhism
Also, officially, Sikhs don’t worship human beings, since Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh guru, named Guru Granth Sahib, the Holy Book, as his successor. But certain Sikh sects do believe in living human gurus, some mainstream Sikh families revere spiritual figures and ancestors, and — according to some media reports, again disputed by the groups involved — the violence in Austria was sparked when members of a certain sect gave the Guru Granth Sahib pride of place next to photographs and idols of their own human “gurus�.

Then there’s the issue of booze. Officially, Sikhs don’t drink, and some families don’t even allow alcohol to be kept in their houses.

But as the academics Gurharpal Singh and Darshan Singh Tatla point out in Sikhs in Britain: The Making of a Community: “Consumption of alcohol has always been high among Sikhs, with the per capita rate among Sikhs of Punjab among the highest in the world� and “a particularly distinctive feature of British Sikh society today� being “the high rate of alcoholism among males . . . Consumption rates are higher than in any other ethnic minority and in the white community.�

There are other contradictions. Sikhs are meant to adopt the name “Singh�, meaning “lion�, as a way of encouraging equality (one’s caste can often be identified by a surname), but many of us use it only as a middle name. The Gurus declared men and women to be equal, but Punjabi culture is highly patriarchal. Sikhism is the only major world religion that acknowledges that other religions are a valid way of reaching God, but some believers risk being disowned for marrying outside of their religion.

Also, Sikhs, partly as a result of having no clergy (the idea is that everyone can be directly in touch with God without priests) and partly as a result of factionalism, have never been very good at building institutions to represent them, and yet have had great success campaigning on issues such as the right to wear the turban, so much so that Sikhs can legally ride a motorbike with a turban instead of a helmet. When, the other week, the police announced that they were developing a bulletproof turban, apart from a few tiresome jokes about the “turbanator�, there were almost no objections from any quarters. Imagine the fuss there would have been if the religious headwear in question had been a burka.

And if there is anything that epitomises the fluidity of Sikhism, it is the turban. Long hair, beards and colourful headwear are synonymous with the religion — I kept my own hair unshorn until the age of 14 — but if you ask any Sikh why they keep their hair uncut, they will give you a different answer.

Some say that it’s a way of showing respect for the God-given form; some that it is a way of expressing love for God (like a married person would wear a wedding ring); some link it to intelligence, health and spirituality; some say that Guru Gobind Singh made the keeping of unshorn hair mandatory to give Sikhs a binding identity. There are others who will argue that long hair isn’t actually necessary to be a Sikh.

In fact, a great many Sikhs, if not the majority, don’t have long hair and don’t sport turbans. And those with turbans are not necessarily hugely religious: I know one turbaned man who runs that most un-Sikh of things, an English pub; another who started wearing a turban simply because he had developed a bald patch; another who is actually an atheist.

As it happens, I don’t think that these ambiguities are necessarily a problem. Such issues crop up with all organised religions, and for me, and I am a believer, the massive variation in observance is appealing, as you’re basically left to define your own religiosity. Not least, it’s an expression of another of Sikhism’s fundamental teachings, that empty ritual is meaningless, and it ensures that believers concentrate on the things that really matter, namely “Nam simran� (meditation on and awareness of God) and “Sewa� (community service).

But the concerning thing about last week’s events is that we seem to have another contradiction developing. This most modern and liberal of world religions, which allows its believers to develop their own relationship with God, is developing a fundamentalist streak, with certain people determined to tell others what to believe and how to believe it, under pain of death if necessary.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/sathnam_sanghera/article 6407907.ece

Dear Dost

You see I am also suffering from Laddu's bimaari of sending post after post.

Why Sikhs are suffering from small dick syndrome? Delhiwala has lost all his sense of humor and has become so obsessed with Akali version of Sikhi which has got nothing to do with iconoclastic sikhi of Guru's.

What Akali's and SGPC did to Sikhi is similar to what Koran does to Muslims.

For example earlier the picture's of Guru Nanak were drawn as clean shaven without a pugaree. Nanak was portrayed as having a nice Rajesh Khanna style hair style with a beautiful red Tilak. He just looked so nice and cute.

What Akali and SGPC did to old chap was put a pugaree on his head with one stroke of brush with white paint they drew his beard. To do more damage to simple soul of Nanak they painted his eyes like bagla bhagat half open half closed. While they were their they might as well painted a bundle of beedis next to Nanak and in bold gurmukhi letters they could have written
"Nanak Chaap Beedi".
Below that they could have written

jis man ko vasant ki lage na so
us jeev ko pilao Nanak Chaap Beedi.

Re: # 136

Ramchandar ji,

Yeh kahan se seekh ke aa gaye aap. If u make comments like this it makes me want to strangulate you and slowly at that.

Just to protest your ignoramousness I hereby expel the Sikhs from the fold of Hindu Samaj and confer on them the right to monopolise the Guru's Bani, Granths and Shabads.

As stated earlier there are only 12 Hindus in India and I do not recall anyone having your name.

DW aap jete we are not one. But tell me what should I do with my son.

Sanatani

Dear Friends

What is this talk about Sikh Maryada?

O yaar you could not coin a word in gurmukhi ( Hindi with strange lipi).

( Delhiwala I am stirring you up now)

Dost even you are also following organizational line. Et tu Dost.

From your post Sikhism does not seem to be individual's headache.

I can only make fun of this.

Keshdhari sikhan no Sikhani Daan
Dahi daan
Ustra daan
Kenchi daan
Dhuppay beth ke
Sir munnan
Dar Dar de dhakkey khan
Sarrey Khottey mil ke bolan
Wah-e-gur ji da khalsa
Wah-e-gur ji di vi phattey

Re: # 14

Vaise Pardesi in response to this "Many sikhs feel that hindu india is too big and will never incorporate values they hold so dear. In fact they think sikhs will become converted back to lazy caste ridden society because ultimately 2% folks have to fit in with the values of the majority for their own survival and prosperity."

In my life I have met only 11 Hindus apart from myself and I see a few here but that is it. I think Hindus are India's most endangered minority.

Else how do you see a government saying 1st right onresources is that of the muslai and how do you explain that the attack on a Harmandir and it did not elicit a murmur of protest by the said Hindus.

Sanatani

Dear Dost

From various post from various people the theme is comming that Sikhs don't want to belong to Hindu Parivar.

First the rivers who move away from their source dry up.

Only Mccalay's Sikhs don't want to be part of Hindu Parivar.

Mccalay's sikhs are the Hindu's who were asked to take Amrit and become Keshdhari when they were joining the British Army. When these Sikhs came back after their retirement back to their villeges first time in history they had regular income in the form of Pension and lot of spare time.

So they tried to capture political power in the Sikhi by capturing the Gurudwara's and moving the Gurudwara away from Hinduism. So the politics of Akialis and SGPC was born.


Hinduism does not depend on Sikhi. Sikhi is the one, that wants to forget or whitewash its Vedantic roots. Sikh guru did not preach anything other than Vedantic philosophy. You can ask Khushwant Singh.

Dost if being Sikh you don't want to be part of Hindu Parivar so be that and be happy. I still like you.

On lighter note let us sa

Wah-e-gur ji da khalsa
Tey Wah-e-gur ji di vi phattey

Ram

And DW Ji,

If it makes you feel better then we will ex-communicate the Arya Samajis from Hindu Dharam declare them non-Hindu.

In fact if you know the kind of indignities they have inflicted on the Sanatanis you would be shocked. Please read SitaRam Goel's how I became a Hindu in which he describes how the numerically strong Aryas would defecate on the GarbaGriha of the Sanatan Dharam Mandir in his village.

Sanatani

Re: # 106

DW Prah,

you said "this is what Guru Gobind Singh Jee sacrificed his children for" the question should have been "is this what Guru Gobind Singh Jee sacrificed his children for".

Sirjee the Guru Shri 1007 Dashmesh Shri Guru Shiromani Shri Guru Gobind Siongh Jee sacrificed his Sons and also his father for the protection of the Hindu Dharam.

Sanatani

Re: # 99

Delhiwale Bhaiya,

It is like this. The AS was useful for a period of time as Dayanand Saraswati was the 1st person who provided Hindu Samaj with anideological critique of Islam and Christianity they have no usefullness now. On the other hand if the Gurus would have done the same then whatever limited usefullness they had would not have been required. The Khalsa is eternal as the threats coming coming to the Hindu Dharma are also eternal.

Anyone way if Sikhs are no Hindus then it is like this you Sikhs are merely servants of the Gurus (Gurnaukar) while we Hindus are their Chahitas (Gurchahite) as it is for us they gave their Sheesh.

Sanatani

laddu, let me inform for your own sake that Amritdhari ulema that you are so against is more likely to believe your Hemkund and reincarnation story than normal sikhs.
same goes for the whole dasam granth thingie. for rest of us Chritropakheyaan can't be from Guru Gobind Singh we know.

Re: # 87

DW Bhaiya,

Yeh BJP Mantra nahin hai.

As regards "1) Total annihilation of Sikhs(natural cause- water down or otherwise dilution, 40-50 years) BJPs Mantra
" rest assured at least this will not happen till I am alive and for it if I have to stud my son with a 100 women I shall do it.

Are Bhai hum Hindu itne bure log nahin hai. The Khalsa is one of the most precious gifts we have we cannot let it go.

Sanatani