The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism

dlr#94:

".if someone wants to partake amrit he/she can do at any of the 5 takts."

This has changed now. Our local gurudwara arranges and promotes "amrit-chhakna" at least once a year in the local gurudwara.

delhiwala#88:

"Problem lies with Arya Samajis and Hariyanvi(ex Punjabis) who are bent upon destroying Sikhs."

Arya Samajis are the closest to wahabi hindus there are: they believe that they are the true hindus and everyone else is 'patit'.

As for Haryanvi (ex punjabis) and other punjabi hindus, you are right that they are the strongest opponent to the Sikh identity. But, in my opinion, they do so not due to any hostility towards Sikhs or Sikh identity but because they love them as their own and cannot bear the pain of separation. You can feel that pain in Sanatani's posts.

DM Sir,
I think that any sensible person agrees in inclusion.
But the issue is with those people who are bent upon breaking Sikhi and redefining it.

Drlokraj: nobody disputes what you are wirting(except #4).

Politics and Religion are one and the same for Sikhs. Our Gurus kept Religion and Politics together.

Otherwise what is the need to have Sikhs, by your Freudian definition, everyone can be a good person, then why even bother to follow a religion. Let us all become Communists. right..

Sheru#89:

Excellent post.

However, I would not have any negative definitions. Faith is an individual matter and if these people believe that they are Sikhs, why should anyone throw them out of the panth? For example, there are many keshadhari sikhs, esp. non-khatri/non-jatts, who worship Chandi and believe, right or wrong, that the tenth guru did so, too.

Isn't it paradoxical when one has to talk abouut bondaries of an order which took its birth in response to te strangulating boundaries of the main faiths of that time?
Guru Gobind Singh, after creating the Khalsa never said that those who do not partake amrit will be no more sikhs. He created Khalsa from within the sikh mat and Khalsa was supposed to be the humblest of all becase being Khalsa means killing your 'ego' and dedicating yourself to serve the humanity; but what we see now is that amritdharis are the most arrogant, not different at all from the prototypal 'tilakdhari brahman.

what needs to be done?

1. define sikh just as someone who declares hiself/herself to be so and respects SGGS, 10 gurus and all those whose baani is included in SGGS.

2.Dukaandaari of 'amrit chhakao' needs to stop..if someone wants to partake amrit he/she can do at any of the 5 takts.

3 Non amritdharis should be allowed to be members/office bearers of SGPC shoud be able to take part in manageent/seva of gurudwaras and also should be abe to conduct paath/akhandpaath etc.

4. gurudwaras should not be allowed to be used for any political activities and politics and reigion need to be kept separate.

5. The tradition of issuing hukamnamas and excommunicating people needs to be stopped.

Amritdharis control all te institutions in sikhism and thats how they dictate to others. Unless this monopoly is broken, sikhism can not dream of increasing its reach and will keep on shrinking further.

not all akalis are bad either but mostly are BJP puppets.

Joker Navjot S Sidhu makes me feel sad for Sikhs.

Amritdharis and Sehjdharis are internal matters within Sikhism and we dont need Congress or BJP to decide them for us.
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Dilli pai, I would add that Akalis should not be the ones deciding it either. They are in cahoots with BJP plus their own political interest in showing they are the only protectors of faith.

DM Sir:
In fact in Dasam Granth, I have read at some place where Guru Gobind Singh says that he restored the lost Rajouti Aan(lost pride of Rajputs).

I will try to find the exact stanza.

Sheru BaiJee:
Well said, I am cent percent in agreement with you.
Now go and tell people like Drlokraj, who are always attacking Amrtidharis and looking for faults.

Dont Sikhs say in Ardas, Akhar Wada Ghatta Muaff Karna,
do not see the faults of others.

Amritdharis and Sehjdharis are internal matters within Sikhism and we dont need Congress or BJP to decide them for us.

1. Khalsa sikhs need to loosen up their attitude towards non-amritdharis and mona sikhs. If they alienate these groups from the Sikh Panth by putting them down or treating them lesser beings it would be a very tragic for all sikhs. non-amritdhari sikhs are sikhs as long as they don't worship any God other than Waheguru.

2. Creating boundaries is a tricky business..you want to have some boundaries for your survival and at the same time don't want to suffocate yourself. SGPC is indeed going too far in emphasizing the outward appearance - 'soorat' of a Sikh while I have never ever seen them doing anything to emphasize the 'seerat' of a sikh. SGPC has in its ranks, smugglers, criminals and corrupt probably in a higher proportion than in the general sikh sangat. Things like girl's eye-brow case in court are despicable coming from a religious organization. I personally know of more than 1 SGPC member whose family members are clean shaven and women thread eye-brows etc. This is most hypocrite on the part of SGPC.

3. Khalsas are part of the core of the Sikh faith and the highest stage a Sikh could attain in the search of God traveling the path shown by the Guru. It is unfortunate to take it as the starting point or the only point in this spiritual journey.

4. Just as mona sikhs should not be condemned or out-casted, Khalsa sikhs should not be considered obsolete either. bakwaas like we are in modern times, Khalsa is not needed anymore should be pointed out for what it is - bakwaas, hidden agendas of Laddus of this world. The problem in front of Sikhism is how to keep the together the Khalsa panth and the larger Sikh panth in the fold. It is not anything new either...it has co-existed for 300 years. we need to keep the politics out of it and leave it to the faith.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee was also inspired by Rajputs, Singh and Kaur were Rajput in origin.

There is no denial here.

DM Sir,
In NJ and NY, even in the Gurudwara where Khalistanis rule(Glen Rock and Bridgewater), Sindhis do come frequently.

they can be seen doing Sukhmani Sahib's paath every Friday without a break(more dedicated).

I also used to know few Sindhi Keshdhari/amritdhari Sikhs(but they were exception than norm).


Problem lies with Arya Samajis and Hariyanvi(ex Punjabis) who are bent upon destroying Sikhs.

From the Sikhs perspective, they had Soverignity that was lost to English. End of the day British left India and broke Legacy Sikh Kingdom into Pakistan and India. they both were countryless before and now have countries.

All of a sudden Sikhs are alienated(mostly their own leadership at fault).

Someone tells them that they are Hindus now or part of them. All of their previous generations they have been raised with the fact they are not Hindus and frankly are superior in every respect.

That would also explain the fact that Punjabi Hindus(Arya Samajis) would not inter-merge with UP or Bihari Hindus.

Sikh issue is a complex issue. It can only be solved with following:

1) Total annihilation of Sikhs(natural cause- water down or otherwise dilution, 40-50 years) BJPs Mantra
2) Sikh Soverignity within India(special status like Kashmir/himachal/Uttarkhand etc)
3) Separate Nation politically.

delhiwala#70:

There is a need to understand the behaviour of the Sindhi children in the gurudwara. I am surprised that you actually saw any Sindhis in the gurudwara at all. Sindhi Hindus of my generation were among the most ardent Sehjadharis although you would hardly see any Keshadhari sindhi [I suspect that they moved from Punjab to Sindh sometimes before the tenth guru ordained the Khalsa]. They knew about the maryada of the gurudwaras. However, Sindhis, like many other Hindus stopped going to the gurudwaras after 1984 and very few of them are regular visitors to the gurudwaras now. Part of the reason is that most of the gurudwars, including the one in Ottawa, went into the control of "tataas" who installed Khalistani slogans and gory pictures of Bindranwale and others killed in Operation Bluestar. The children of the old "sehjadharis" now go to mandirs instead of gurudwaras. [especially since the mandirs have also started serving langars, which they call prasad ;)].

Maharana#78:

You have raised a number of issues which are outside the scope of this article. There is a lot that is known about Bhindranwale, like his creation by Indira-Zail Singh to counter the Akalis in Punjab. He did create a reign of terror and a sort of parallel govt. in Punjab for a while. His cassettes were full of hatred towards the Hindus , but it is not true that he killed thousands of people, and he did not openly ask for Khalistan.

I think that the primary reason for schism between Hindus and Sikhs is the Sikh search for a separate identity but this could not have taken place without predictable reaction from Hindus, especially Punjabi Khatri Hindus, who always thought of Sikhs as one of them and were unwilling to let go off them. That is still the case as you can see from the reactions of Punjabi Hindus on this board.

BTW, I suspect that the tenth Sikh guru was inspired by Rajputs in adopting "singh" and "kaur" as the Sikh names.

delhiwala#77:

Yes, I am in Ottawa this week and weekend. BTW, Bhai Harjinder Singh of Srinagar and his jatha are in Ottawa Gurudwara from today until Sunday.

delhiwala you display all the intolerance and thin skinned pomposity that your words would suggest.

I don't give my endorsment to anyone, so shove it up your nose.

If you can't take discussion and comeback to your comments stay off the internet, and get that chip off your shoulder. If you can act like an adult, do so. First of all....grow up and be a man, not a sulking teenager.

Then discussion can continue.