The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism
Dost Mittar May 26, 2009
#194 Posted by dost_mittar on July 17, 2009 7:40:45 am
Hindu_Sikh#192:
I am sorry I cannot be of much help in finding Prof. Oberoi's book in Delhi. Your best bet would be to go to a bookstore in Connaught Place. Try Bookworm near the Plaza Cinema or the bookstore behind the Janpath stalls behind the LIC building. They are generally quite helpful in ordering a book for you if they don't have it.
I am sorry I cannot be of much help in finding Prof. Oberoi's book in Delhi. Your best bet would be to go to a bookstore in Connaught Place. Try Bookworm near the Plaza Cinema or the bookstore behind the Janpath stalls behind the LIC building. They are generally quite helpful in ordering a book for you if they don't have it.
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#193 Posted by Hindu_sikh on July 12, 2009 10:47:20 am
Delhiwala ji ,
i am an 18year old mbbs student and have mixed parentage.I can relate to your anguish about sikhs not following the five k'S.But i think that people have to decide on this issue on their own. When khalsa was instituted sikhi was in danger,and we know that in times of persecution people take refuge in the overt symbolization of their identities .But sikhi isnot in danger anylonger.
five k s were a product of circumstance and time.Sikhism inthese peace times has to evolve.Stagnant philosophies always die and dynamic ones succeed in our darwinian world.
As for khalistan, i think the idea sucks.I dont know if you realize that ,that most indians esp hindus are extremely sensitive about this seceding thing .This is mainly so as indians have lost much of their motherland to jinnah's similar idea. I have seen some hindus,even dalits,gettin' very bellicose on this issue.
Sikhism can flourish well in india and i have nodoubt about this. Moreover I will always remain proud of tne fact that inspite of belonging to a minority community,my talent has been recognized and i have been selected for the no 2 ranking medschool in india.
My friend often asks me ,'tomorrow if there is a conflict between hinduism,sikhism and the idea of india, who will you support?' my answer is always unqualified,'india' I am an indian b4anything .
i am an 18year old mbbs student and have mixed parentage.I can relate to your anguish about sikhs not following the five k'S.But i think that people have to decide on this issue on their own. When khalsa was instituted sikhi was in danger,and we know that in times of persecution people take refuge in the overt symbolization of their identities .But sikhi isnot in danger anylonger.
five k s were a product of circumstance and time.Sikhism inthese peace times has to evolve.Stagnant philosophies always die and dynamic ones succeed in our darwinian world.
As for khalistan, i think the idea sucks.I dont know if you realize that ,that most indians esp hindus are extremely sensitive about this seceding thing .This is mainly so as indians have lost much of their motherland to jinnah's similar idea. I have seen some hindus,even dalits,gettin' very bellicose on this issue.
Sikhism can flourish well in india and i have nodoubt about this. Moreover I will always remain proud of tne fact that inspite of belonging to a minority community,my talent has been recognized and i have been selected for the no 2 ranking medschool in india.
My friend often asks me ,'tomorrow if there is a conflict between hinduism,sikhism and the idea of india, who will you support?' my answer is always unqualified,'india' I am an indian b4anything .
#192 Posted by Hindu_sikh on July 12, 2009 9:40:36 am
Mr dost mitr,could you recommend to me a delhi book shop where Professor oberoi's book is available? Thanks....
#191 Posted by bajwa_sandeep on June 9, 2009 8:35:05 am
and the Canadian/British/America/etc Sikhs who wants to live comfortable away from Punjab and want Khalistan in India should be boo'ed off and ignored.
#190 Posted by bajwa_sandeep on June 9, 2009 8:33:37 am
Who is a Khalsa or Amritdhari?
The one who has taken a vow to be a khalsa as prescribed by the Rahitnama, approved by the Gurus and Sarbatt Khalsa and take Sri Guru Granth Sahib as his Guru.
Who is Keshdhari?
People who keep hair and visit Gurdwaras hoping that sometimes in future they will become Khalsa.
Who is a Sahajdhari?
People who do not keep hair and visit Gurdwaras hoping that sometimes in future they will become Khalsa.
What is the biggest problem currently being faced by Sikhi?
It is the Control by the Punjabi Jutts and Khatris through SGPC and Akali Party.
How this problem can be fixed?
1. There is nothing punjabi at all whatsoever about Sikhi so all prayers/ardaas, gurbani/etc must be translated and sung in different languages (Portugues, Tamil, Hindi, Bhojpuri, Bangla, Swahili, French, English, etc).
2. Let there be the Sarbatt Khalsa (elections to pick global five pyara i.e. Khalsa panchayat) held where all Sikhs all over the world participate and just not the illiterates from Punjab and India. This educated literate panchayat should guide the future of Sikhi.
the future of Sikhi has been finished in India as I see no difference between the sikhs of darbar sahib or brahmins of Haridwar. Sikhi will flourish outside of India provided that we forget our Indian and punjabi roots.
The one who has taken a vow to be a khalsa as prescribed by the Rahitnama, approved by the Gurus and Sarbatt Khalsa and take Sri Guru Granth Sahib as his Guru.
Who is Keshdhari?
People who keep hair and visit Gurdwaras hoping that sometimes in future they will become Khalsa.
Who is a Sahajdhari?
People who do not keep hair and visit Gurdwaras hoping that sometimes in future they will become Khalsa.
What is the biggest problem currently being faced by Sikhi?
It is the Control by the Punjabi Jutts and Khatris through SGPC and Akali Party.
How this problem can be fixed?
1. There is nothing punjabi at all whatsoever about Sikhi so all prayers/ardaas, gurbani/etc must be translated and sung in different languages (Portugues, Tamil, Hindi, Bhojpuri, Bangla, Swahili, French, English, etc).
2. Let there be the Sarbatt Khalsa (elections to pick global five pyara i.e. Khalsa panchayat) held where all Sikhs all over the world participate and just not the illiterates from Punjab and India. This educated literate panchayat should guide the future of Sikhi.
the future of Sikhi has been finished in India as I see no difference between the sikhs of darbar sahib or brahmins of Haridwar. Sikhi will flourish outside of India provided that we forget our Indian and punjabi roots.
#189 Posted by Maharana on June 7, 2009 5:56:39 am
Hemant # 188,
I can confirm that sikhs go to Tirupati temple. Regarding being allowed to any of these places, I don't think you require permission if you belong to a different religion. I am not aware if Puri and Guruvayoor even care to ask for your religion before you enter there.
Adios
I can confirm that sikhs go to Tirupati temple. Regarding being allowed to any of these places, I don't think you require permission if you belong to a different religion. I am not aware if Puri and Guruvayoor even care to ask for your religion before you enter there.
Adios
#188 Posted by HemantS on June 6, 2009 11:51:19 pm
Continued from 187 as the rest of my post got truncated.
Sanatani you have written passionately on how the Sikhs are or are part of Hindus but do you not think with the Sikhs being primarily a Punjabi phenomenon do the vast majority of Hindus especially in the southern western and eatern states recognise them as such. For example the Southern and Eastern temples say Puri and Gurvayoor which prohibit entry of non Hindus say that Jains and Buddhists are allowed to come here but are silent on the Sikh issue (I think). Could any of our southern friends shed light on this.
Sanatani you have written passionately on how the Sikhs are or are part of Hindus but do you not think with the Sikhs being primarily a Punjabi phenomenon do the vast majority of Hindus especially in the southern western and eatern states recognise them as such. For example the Southern and Eastern temples say Puri and Gurvayoor which prohibit entry of non Hindus say that Jains and Buddhists are allowed to come here but are silent on the Sikh issue (I think). Could any of our southern friends shed light on this.
#187 Posted by HemantS on June 6, 2009 11:37:15 pm
Re: # 173
I think you have gone a bit overboard in saying that the Gurus message was equally to all. The relevance of the message is to all but as pollsters say today the core constituency being addressed was Hindu.
But after going through what Sanatani has written and yours and DM's responses has lead me to reinforce a conclusion that I reached many years ago that whether Sikhs are Hindus or not is a matter for the Sikhs to decide themselves and not even if the 10th Master came to the Earth to declare what they are I do not feel he would have the power to decide that for the Panth.
Sanatani's problem is something I have seen among many Hindus they want everything to fit into the sterotype they create. For example let us take the case for youth for equality YFE they want equality in the sense no reservations and campaign for the same but at the same time would not want to go to villages and campaign for equality for Dalits to enter Mandirs.
How the Sikh/Khalsa/AmritDhari/Keshdhari wish to define themselves is their business so long as the Sikhs are doing things within the law of the land and that too in the spirit of the law I fail to see what is the problem Hindus have with the same. The unfortunate thing is that Hindu society has totally splintered but that is the logical process of the so called Idea and Ideology of India prompted by the Nehruvian state and Upper Caste Hindus the biggest supporters of the same should really have no cause for complaint regarding the same as you sow so shall you reap.
A look at Nepal and the state of society there would let you know how things are different there w.r.t to here.
Again I small point which Delhiwala has said I do not agree with is "If no Sikh boy or girl in any part of India feels being ridiculed or made fun of in his/her appearance, or Sikhs are not portrayed in a negative or humorous manner, perceptions over a generation will change" I think this is bunkum but you cannot stop Sardarjee Jokes as what will India be with without them. They are humorously done and no Sikh Prah should feel offended as the gurus are never ridiculed jus the Sikh sense is.
E.g. 2 Sardar Chess khel rahe the (laughter) teesra aa ke kehta hai let me join aur triples khelte hai more laughter
Who is the 11 guru of the Sikhs Ans Bhindrawale
What is the national bird of Khalistan Ans Tandoor Chicken
Why did Khalistan fail Ans after attaining Khalistan Panthic commitee adressed the nation after giving Salutations to the gurus they said:
"Pehnon prahvon from Today Non Veg Alcohol Beauty Parlours plucking of Hair Music more than 100 people in a wedding and Phizul Kharchi is banned they kep on droning for 30 minutes in the same 30 minutes all the people of Khalistan except 1 old man ran away back to India. When asked why he did not run awat the Oldie said "To show you the way where people have run and take a lift from you in your car"
Humorous and Poor Jokes indeed hardly offensive or ridiculing. Maybe if Delhi has some specific instance he could share with us.
Sanatani
I think you have gone a bit overboard in saying that the Gurus message was equally to all. The relevance of the message is to all but as pollsters say today the core constituency being addressed was Hindu.
But after going through what Sanatani has written and yours and DM's responses has lead me to reinforce a conclusion that I reached many years ago that whether Sikhs are Hindus or not is a matter for the Sikhs to decide themselves and not even if the 10th Master came to the Earth to declare what they are I do not feel he would have the power to decide that for the Panth.
Sanatani's problem is something I have seen among many Hindus they want everything to fit into the sterotype they create. For example let us take the case for youth for equality YFE they want equality in the sense no reservations and campaign for the same but at the same time would not want to go to villages and campaign for equality for Dalits to enter Mandirs.
How the Sikh/Khalsa/AmritDhari/Keshdhari wish to define themselves is their business so long as the Sikhs are doing things within the law of the land and that too in the spirit of the law I fail to see what is the problem Hindus have with the same. The unfortunate thing is that Hindu society has totally splintered but that is the logical process of the so called Idea and Ideology of India prompted by the Nehruvian state and Upper Caste Hindus the biggest supporters of the same should really have no cause for complaint regarding the same as you sow so shall you reap.
A look at Nepal and the state of society there would let you know how things are different there w.r.t to here.
Again I small point which Delhiwala has said I do not agree with is "If no Sikh boy or girl in any part of India feels being ridiculed or made fun of in his/her appearance, or Sikhs are not portrayed in a negative or humorous manner, perceptions over a generation will change" I think this is bunkum but you cannot stop Sardarjee Jokes as what will India be with without them. They are humorously done and no Sikh Prah should feel offended as the gurus are never ridiculed jus the Sikh sense is.
E.g. 2 Sardar Chess khel rahe the (laughter) teesra aa ke kehta hai let me join aur triples khelte hai more laughter
Who is the 11 guru of the Sikhs Ans Bhindrawale
What is the national bird of Khalistan Ans Tandoor Chicken
Why did Khalistan fail Ans after attaining Khalistan Panthic commitee adressed the nation after giving Salutations to the gurus they said:
"Pehnon prahvon from Today Non Veg Alcohol Beauty Parlours plucking of Hair Music more than 100 people in a wedding and Phizul Kharchi is banned they kep on droning for 30 minutes in the same 30 minutes all the people of Khalistan except 1 old man ran away back to India. When asked why he did not run awat the Oldie said "To show you the way where people have run and take a lift from you in your car"
Humorous and Poor Jokes indeed hardly offensive or ridiculing. Maybe if Delhi has some specific instance he could share with us.
Sanatani
#186 Posted by ramchandar on June 5, 2009 8:20:38 pm
In some of Gurdwaras in Cananda, you can not read or sing Asa-di-vaar.
Some people are appropriating Sikhi.
I think Dost we should all stand up and say bhen-yaddhi rehat maryada di te Maa Yaddhi Akaliayan di te SGPC di.
Bhen yaddhi unna kanjaran di who are prostituting the Gurus and Maa yaddhi unna haramiya di who are pissing on innocent songs in book.
Bhen yaddhi unna knjaran di who are making god of the Gurus against the wishes of the Gurus. As Guru Gobind Rai has said
Jo hum ko parmesar ucharen, tey nar ghor narak me paraheyn
Mein to param purak ka dasa, dekhan aya jagat tamassa
Some people are appropriating Sikhi.
I think Dost we should all stand up and say bhen-yaddhi rehat maryada di te Maa Yaddhi Akaliayan di te SGPC di.
Bhen yaddhi unna kanjaran di who are prostituting the Gurus and Maa yaddhi unna haramiya di who are pissing on innocent songs in book.
Bhen yaddhi unna knjaran di who are making god of the Gurus against the wishes of the Gurus. As Guru Gobind Rai has said
Jo hum ko parmesar ucharen, tey nar ghor narak me paraheyn
Mein to param purak ka dasa, dekhan aya jagat tamassa
#185 Posted by ramchandar on June 5, 2009 8:07:53 pm
Dear Sadh Sangat and Granthi Dost Mittar
I know you did not like my post and Dost even labeled me a reason good enough for Sikhs to hate Hindus.
But the sub text here in these interaction I could see is that it is not some Hindu groups claim Sikhs as Hindus but there are majority of Sikhs who think they are Hindus. Amritdhari, KeshDhari like Delhiwala and Dear Dost mittar find it difficult to swallow.
I give it to you that Sikhs are totally different relegion. Ok Why don't Sikhs fight for that and get them classified as different re legion constitutionally in India. To the surprise of the Akalis and Khalsas majority of Sikhs will object to that.
Here we have Dost and Delhiwala intellectualizing the Sikhism as understood by Bhindrawala or Jat Sikhs of punjab. By the way they don't consider Bhapas like Dost Mittar and Delhiwala as Sikhs.
This is bloody sounding more like Islam.
Anyway to the annoyance of all the fundaoos
Wah-e-gur ji da Kalsa
Tey Wah-e-gur ji di vi phatey
I know you did not like my post and Dost even labeled me a reason good enough for Sikhs to hate Hindus.
But the sub text here in these interaction I could see is that it is not some Hindu groups claim Sikhs as Hindus but there are majority of Sikhs who think they are Hindus. Amritdhari, KeshDhari like Delhiwala and Dear Dost mittar find it difficult to swallow.
I give it to you that Sikhs are totally different relegion. Ok Why don't Sikhs fight for that and get them classified as different re legion constitutionally in India. To the surprise of the Akalis and Khalsas majority of Sikhs will object to that.
Here we have Dost and Delhiwala intellectualizing the Sikhism as understood by Bhindrawala or Jat Sikhs of punjab. By the way they don't consider Bhapas like Dost Mittar and Delhiwala as Sikhs.
This is bloody sounding more like Islam.
Anyway to the annoyance of all the fundaoos
Wah-e-gur ji da Kalsa
Tey Wah-e-gur ji di vi phatey
#184 Posted by laddu on June 5, 2009 5:01:08 pm
It is like the 9/11 deniers amongst muslims........
like the jews in that case .......it must be their own leaders or hindus probably behind the attack....after all the hindus are always trying to defile the pure khalistani Amritdharis!!
like the jews in that case .......it must be their own leaders or hindus probably behind the attack....after all the hindus are always trying to defile the pure khalistani Amritdharis!!
#183 Posted by laddu on June 5, 2009 4:58:48 pm
The Khalistani Ulemas are back with their Islami 'conspiracy theories'
#182 Posted by delhiwala on June 5, 2009 1:42:41 pm
It is not confirmed yet. Tribune, a hindu newspaper is publishing that Vienna police suspects conspiracy. Even the deputy leader of Ravidasia is not ruled out as the culprit.
#181 Posted by delhiwala on June 5, 2009 1:42:40 pm
It is not confirmed yet. Tribune, a hindu newspaper is publishing that Vienna police suspects conspiracy. Even the deputy leader of Ravidasia is not ruled out as the culprit.
#180 Posted by drlokraj on June 5, 2009 9:42:54 am
Re: # 179
Khalistan Zindabad Force has already claimed the responsibility
Khalistan Zindabad Force has already claimed the responsibility
#179 Posted by delhiwala on June 5, 2009 9:17:09 am
I read in Tribune that there is a suspicion behind Sikh Leader(Ravidasi's murder), perhaps internal conflict(T.B.D).
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