The Shrinking Boundaries of Sikhism

Hindu_Sikh#192:


I am sorry I cannot be of much help in finding Prof. Oberoi's book in Delhi. Your best bet would be to go to a bookstore in Connaught Place. Try Bookworm near the Plaza Cinema or the bookstore behind the Janpath stalls behind the LIC building. They are generally quite helpful in ordering a book for you if they don't have it.

Delhiwala ji ,
i am an 18year old mbbs student and have mixed parentage.I can relate to your anguish about sikhs not following the five k'S.But i think that people have to decide on this issue on their own. When khalsa was instituted sikhi was in danger,and we know that in times of persecution people take refuge in the overt symbolization of their identities .But sikhi isnot in danger anylonger.
five k s were a product of circumstance and time.Sikhism inthese peace times has to evolve.Stagnant philosophies always die and dynamic ones succeed in our darwinian world.
As for khalistan, i think the idea sucks.I dont know if you realize that ,that most indians esp hindus are extremely sensitive about this seceding thing .This is mainly so as indians have lost much of their motherland to jinnah's similar idea. I have seen some hindus,even dalits,gettin' very bellicose on this issue.


Sikhism can flourish well in india and i have nodoubt about this. Moreover I will always remain proud of tne fact that inspite of belonging to a minority community,my talent has been recognized and i have been selected for the no 2 ranking medschool in india.
My friend often asks me ,'tomorrow if there is a conflict between hinduism,sikhism and the idea of india, who will you support?' my answer is always unqualified,'india' I am an indian b4anything .

Mr dost mitr,could you recommend to me a delhi book shop where Professor oberoi's book is available? Thanks....

and the Canadian/British/America/etc Sikhs who wants to live comfortable away from Punjab and want Khalistan in India should be boo'ed off and ignored.

Who is a Khalsa or Amritdhari?

The one who has taken a vow to be a khalsa as prescribed by the Rahitnama, approved by the Gurus and Sarbatt Khalsa and take Sri Guru Granth Sahib as his Guru.

Who is Keshdhari?
People who keep hair and visit Gurdwaras hoping that sometimes in future they will become Khalsa.

Who is a Sahajdhari?

People who do not keep hair and visit Gurdwaras hoping that sometimes in future they will become Khalsa.


What is the biggest problem currently being faced by Sikhi?
It is the Control by the Punjabi Jutts and Khatris through SGPC and Akali Party.

How this problem can be fixed?
1. There is nothing punjabi at all whatsoever about Sikhi so all prayers/ardaas, gurbani/etc must be translated and sung in different languages (Portugues, Tamil, Hindi, Bhojpuri, Bangla, Swahili, French, English, etc).

2. Let there be the Sarbatt Khalsa (elections to pick global five pyara i.e. Khalsa panchayat) held where all Sikhs all over the world participate and just not the illiterates from Punjab and India. This educated literate panchayat should guide the future of Sikhi.

the future of Sikhi has been finished in India as I see no difference between the sikhs of darbar sahib or brahmins of Haridwar. Sikhi will flourish outside of India provided that we forget our Indian and punjabi roots.

Hemant # 188,

I can confirm that sikhs go to Tirupati temple. Regarding being allowed to any of these places, I don't think you require permission if you belong to a different religion. I am not aware if Puri and Guruvayoor even care to ask for your religion before you enter there.

Adios

Continued from 187 as the rest of my post got truncated.

Sanatani you have written passionately on how the Sikhs are or are part of Hindus but do you not think with the Sikhs being primarily a Punjabi phenomenon do the vast majority of Hindus especially in the southern western and eatern states recognise them as such. For example the Southern and Eastern temples say Puri and Gurvayoor which prohibit entry of non Hindus say that Jains and Buddhists are allowed to come here but are silent on the Sikh issue (I think). Could any of our southern friends shed light on this.

Re: # 173

I think you have gone a bit overboard in saying that the Gurus message was equally to all. The relevance of the message is to all but as pollsters say today the core constituency being addressed was Hindu.

But after going through what Sanatani has written and yours and DM's responses has lead me to reinforce a conclusion that I reached many years ago that whether Sikhs are Hindus or not is a matter for the Sikhs to decide themselves and not even if the 10th Master came to the Earth to declare what they are I do not feel he would have the power to decide that for the Panth.

Sanatani's problem is something I have seen among many Hindus they want everything to fit into the sterotype they create. For example let us take the case for youth for equality YFE they want equality in the sense no reservations and campaign for the same but at the same time would not want to go to villages and campaign for equality for Dalits to enter Mandirs.

How the Sikh/Khalsa/AmritDhari/Keshdhari wish to define themselves is their business so long as the Sikhs are doing things within the law of the land and that too in the spirit of the law I fail to see what is the problem Hindus have with the same. The unfortunate thing is that Hindu society has totally splintered but that is the logical process of the so called Idea and Ideology of India prompted by the Nehruvian state and Upper Caste Hindus the biggest supporters of the same should really have no cause for complaint regarding the same as you sow so shall you reap.

A look at Nepal and the state of society there would let you know how things are different there w.r.t to here.

Again I small point which Delhiwala has said I do not agree with is "If no Sikh boy or girl in any part of India feels being ridiculed or made fun of in his/her appearance, or Sikhs are not portrayed in a negative or humorous manner, perceptions over a generation will change" I think this is bunkum but you cannot stop Sardarjee Jokes as what will India be with without them. They are humorously done and no Sikh Prah should feel offended as the gurus are never ridiculed jus the Sikh sense is.

E.g. 2 Sardar Chess khel rahe the (laughter) teesra aa ke kehta hai let me join aur triples khelte hai more laughter

Who is the 11 guru of the Sikhs Ans Bhindrawale

What is the national bird of Khalistan Ans Tandoor Chicken

Why did Khalistan fail Ans after attaining Khalistan Panthic commitee adressed the nation after giving Salutations to the gurus they said:

"Pehnon prahvon from Today Non Veg Alcohol Beauty Parlours plucking of Hair Music more than 100 people in a wedding and Phizul Kharchi is banned they kep on droning for 30 minutes in the same 30 minutes all the people of Khalistan except 1 old man ran away back to India. When asked why he did not run awat the Oldie said "To show you the way where people have run and take a lift from you in your car"

Humorous and Poor Jokes indeed hardly offensive or ridiculing. Maybe if Delhi has some specific instance he could share with us.

Sanatani

In some of Gurdwaras in Cananda, you can not read or sing Asa-di-vaar.

Some people are appropriating Sikhi.

I think Dost we should all stand up and say bhen-yaddhi rehat maryada di te Maa Yaddhi Akaliayan di te SGPC di.

Bhen yaddhi unna kanjaran di who are prostituting the Gurus and Maa yaddhi unna haramiya di who are pissing on innocent songs in book.

Bhen yaddhi unna knjaran di who are making god of the Gurus against the wishes of the Gurus. As Guru Gobind Rai has said

Jo hum ko parmesar ucharen, tey nar ghor narak me paraheyn
Mein to param purak ka dasa, dekhan aya jagat tamassa

Dear Sadh Sangat and Granthi Dost Mittar

I know you did not like my post and Dost even labeled me a reason good enough for Sikhs to hate Hindus.

But the sub text here in these interaction I could see is that it is not some Hindu groups claim Sikhs as Hindus but there are majority of Sikhs who think they are Hindus. Amritdhari, KeshDhari like Delhiwala and Dear Dost mittar find it difficult to swallow.

I give it to you that Sikhs are totally different relegion. Ok Why don't Sikhs fight for that and get them classified as different re legion constitutionally in India. To the surprise of the Akalis and Khalsas majority of Sikhs will object to that.

Here we have Dost and Delhiwala intellectualizing the Sikhism as understood by Bhindrawala or Jat Sikhs of punjab. By the way they don't consider Bhapas like Dost Mittar and Delhiwala as Sikhs.

This is bloody sounding more like Islam.

Anyway to the annoyance of all the fundaoos
Wah-e-gur ji da Kalsa
Tey Wah-e-gur ji di vi phatey

It is like the 9/11 deniers amongst muslims........

like the jews in that case .......it must be their own leaders or hindus probably behind the attack....after all the hindus are always trying to defile the pure khalistani Amritdharis!!

The Khalistani Ulemas are back with their Islami 'conspiracy theories'

It is not confirmed yet. Tribune, a hindu newspaper is publishing that Vienna police suspects conspiracy. Even the deputy leader of Ravidasia is not ruled out as the culprit.

It is not confirmed yet. Tribune, a hindu newspaper is publishing that Vienna police suspects conspiracy. Even the deputy leader of Ravidasia is not ruled out as the culprit.

Re: # 179

Khalistan Zindabad Force has already claimed the responsibility

I read in Tribune that there is a suspicion behind Sikh Leader(Ravidasi's murder), perhaps internal conflict(T.B.D).

Kaure , chandigarh ajja tenu DARU pilawanga.!!

[The truth hasn't been so bitter! watch out!]

Good Lord! Ole Kaura is going to come up with another one of his SikhoN ke Guru wala article!

Wahey Guruji -- thoaDa raham kar!

kaurasach#175:

Glad you showed up. Were missing you here.

You call the article hogwash. So, now it is up to you show where are any fallacies in it, so that I can make corrections.

i have heard this bukwas of sikhi as hindu body muslim soul...blah blah blah.....these are redundant statements that are good to hear.....but are lies.....

it will be pointless exercise on deaf ears to counter this bukwas; i have free time, i am going to set the history straight!

The truth hasn't been so bitter! watch out!

what a hogwash! Changing times and changing threats demand the boundaries to be clear and pollution to stop.

the mahants, according to one sakhi, were burnt alive.

these mahants converted Nankana Sahib into a whore house.

these mahants brought in empty rituals of Hinduism into sikhism.

the "hindu/sikhs" are the reason sikhism has suffered. If in past, hindus and sikhs didn't have distinct identity, doesn't mean that sikhism in order to survive, and stop degenratitve forces from polluting it, can take measures accordingly.

the so called sects are polluting sikhi in sikhi's name.

this article is a piece of rubbish and hogwash.... a person illiterate in sikhism and sikhs' history will lap it up....those well versed in sikhism know better.

Q1) Are the Kesh/Amrit Dharis willing to give up their condescending/insulting attitude towars ok HIndus when it comes to doing Sewa in Gurudwaras. Ok Management in Gurudwaras is your the right to define rehat maryada yours everything yours but CAN THERE BE EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO SEWA. Though unwittingly their attitude has done 1 good thing personally to me it has shown me how Upper Caste Hindus behave with Dalits esp when it comes to religous/temple matters.

{I have never seen any condensing attitudes towards Hindus or Sehajdharis in any Gurudwara while they are visiting or doing SEWA. This is fictitious question to mis-lead the conversation(that is how it feels). There is an issue with Harmandir Sahib's caretakers not allowing woman and Non-Amridharis to perform Kirtan Sewa and I think that it needs to change. I have seen opposition to this requirement from all Sikhs everywhere, but by far and large over 98% of the Gurudwaras do not stop Non Keshdharis from doing SEWA)


2) Is the message of the Gurus for the Punjabis only or for Hindu society at large and should steps be taken to have ATTRACTION if not PROMOTION of this message.

{ Message of the Gurus is for all the people who are listening. Guru Ramdas described GurBani as Rain that falls everywhere regardless of region or caste, and at the same time considered Sanskrit verses as Water in a Matka that stays where it is - documented in puratan sakhis written over 300 years ago }

3) This is prompted by Laddu "and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh" may I humbly ask did the Guru ask anyone for this and should not the first four and a willingness to abide by Sikh Rehat maryada be enough. By this definition is the SGPC/Akal Takth not sitting on judgement on the Guru's Bani/Vachan.

{Guru Gobind Singh explicitly mandated his power to Panj, and took Amrit from them, and very clearly annointed Panj Pyaras to be his successor- well documented.
“En Panchan me hum kare niwas�. By that reasoning Sikh matters are decided, granted there is corruption in this process, but that was the last Guru's mandate, hence Panj take matters in their hand. It is this same reasoning that makes majority of the Sikhs to consider Amritdharis as Guru’s image(except on chowk), otherwise Amritdharis would have been rejected and disapproved long time ago. By Pablo’s comment; Amritdharis are only a fraction of Sikh population and they are controlling all Sikh matters then that would mean that 22 million Sikhs worldwide are powerless, helpless, idiots who are letting a fraction control everything. That is not the ground reality. Majority of Non Keshdharis actually support amritdharis role. Please check in the Gurudwaras(not on websites).
OTOH, SGPC's control of the Panj is a pure corruption/politicization, but you cannot negate what Guru Gobind Singh had mandated.
Panj+Sarbat Khalsa have the authority to alter certain things in the larger interest of the community, it has happened in the past}

4) This is prompted by you "they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus", is the mission of the Khalsa ONLY to be tonclaim their share of Hindus. Do the Sikhs feel they owe nothing to the Mother Religion from which they have taken so much for example things like Hindu Dharam Asmita and Hindu Samaj Sudhar. I for one have no objection to Hindus embracing Khalsa indeed I feel if a Hindu embraces the Khalsa truly inspired by Gurbani and Gurbachan then it shows progression but are the Sikhs now going to behave like the christus. To me the ideal would be that seeing the selfless example of the Khalsas around them inspired by their Sewa and seeing them live upto the Guru given concepts of Degh, Tegh, Fateh and Nischay Kar apne jeet karo and Kirit Karo vand Chakho naam Japo Hindus are attracted to and embrace the Khalsa. Can there be debate on this.
{All Sikh Gurus have pointed to the fact there is one God and all people are equal. Gurus have asked Sikhs for Dharam Yudh not nationalistic Patriotism. Concept of a country as we know it came much later. By Guru’s teachings Sikhs should treat a Hindu Muslim, Budhist and Christian with same perspective.
There is also a historic angle for Sikh’s disassociation from Hindus, While Mughals were outright enemies, Hindu Rajas and leaders(proponents of Snatanism) were always responsible for undermining and hurting Sikhs. Guru Arjan was martyred by Jahangir while Chandu was the vaqil of Lahore. Guru Gobind Singh fought more battles with Hindu Rajas who opposed Sikhs than he did with Mughals. After 1708, Hindu Rajas and leaders were always causing roadblocks for Sikhs in addition to Mughal atrocities – Jaswant Rai is one man who is responsible for one of the holocaust.
By far and large Sikhs feel insecure around Hinduism due to past record and evaporation of other minorities from India. I could sum it up as “Self Preservation�}

5) And finally when the wounds heal then at least can there be a debate on the larger relationship between Hindus and Sikhs.
{These matters do not get resolved by debates, proof is in the pudding. If no Sikh boy or girl in any part of India feels being ridiculed or made fun of in his/her appearance, or Sikhs are not portrayed in a negative or humorous manner, perceptions over a generation will change}

6) Furthermore Laddu has raised important points even if he has raised them impertinently they should not be glossed over.

7) Last not least please ask DW if he is condoning the murder of the Ravidasia just because he made a mistake.
{You are wrongly accusing me of some thing that I never said nor supported. Ravidasia is a Sikh just like me and there is no justification of Ramanand’s murder. Even Sikh clergy has condemned his murder. I was correcting the fact that he was killed not because he was of low caste but due to him being viewed as comparing himself as a Guru. None of these justify his murder, so please do not misquote me. I myself go to Ravidasia Gurudwara sometimes and I have not seen anything wrong being practiced there.}

laddu#170:

Don't you understand sarcasm?

Re: # 169

For the rest later but;

Sikhs have borrowed not only from Hindus but also from other religions. For example, they borrowed the concepts such as that of langar, covering head and, most importantly, the concept of the Sikh brotherhood akin to Umma from Islam. If you look at the Khanda saheb, it too looks similar to the insignia of Iran. I sometimes view Khalsa as a Hindu soul in a Muslim body.

Sikh brotherhood or Sangat is from Sangham in Buddhism as in Sangham Sharnam Gacchami as in todays Sangh the RSS and it is not meant as a facetious remark or a joke. The langar is from the concept of the cooked prasadam served in Mandirs as you will see in the south except the Gurus made it more humane and the covering of the head is a custom of the Hunas and those Huns who became Jat, Goojar and Rajputs were the per-Islamic adherents of the same. Please read Cold Todd's annals and antiquities of Rajpootana for a further clarification. The only Islamic injunction my neighbour came up with was the ban on idol worship till I showed him the Jains.

Please DM ji there is no Islam in Sikhism but as I said out of their innate goodness they accomodated frauds like farid.

Sanatani

Re: # 168
"Fifty years from now, anyone using bhagwati in ardas can then be ousted from the panth in the name of rehat-maryada"

As I suspected, you also have fallen prey to Abrahmic interpretation of Sikhi as idol-breaking religion.

Sanatani#162:

I did not misunderstand you. It's not you but there may be other Hindus who do not like idol worship or polytheism who would feel more comfortable in the Sikh panth than in Abrahmic faiths.

Delhiwala can certainly answer your questions, if he wants to. I can give my own opinion on some of the points you raised:


"1) Are the Kesh/Amrit Dharis willing to give up their condescending/insulting attitude towars ok HIndus when it comes to doing Sewa in Gurudwaras. Ok Management in Gurudwaras is your the right to define rehat maryada yours everything yours but CAN THERE BE EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO SEWA. Though unwittingly their attitude has done 1 good thing personally to me it has shown me how Upper Caste Hindus behave with Dalits esp when it comes to religous/temple matters."

Frankly, I do not have much knowledge on what is going on inside gurudwaras in India. As for the sewa part, our local gurudwara does not stop anyone from doing sewa.

"2) Is the message of the Gurus for the Punjabis only or for Hindu society at large and should steps be taken to have ATTRACTION if not PROMOTION of this message."

In my opinion, the message is universal and is not restricted to Punjabis or even Hindus. And I would be happier if the Akal Takht spend more time, energy and resources in promoting the message than in issuing hukumnamas.

"3) This is prompted by Laddu "and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh" may I humbly ask did the Guru ask anyone for this and should not the first four and a willingness to abide by Sikh Rehat maryada be enough. By this definition is the SGPC/Akal Takth not sitting on judgement on the Guru's Bani/Vachan."

I would go further and get rid of this rehat-maryada business, which the Akal Takht is using as a danda to stifle opposition to them.

"4) This is prompted by you "they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus", is the mission of the Khalsa ONLY to be tonclaim their share of Hindus. Do the Sikhs feel they owe nothing to the Mother Religion from which they have taken so much for example things like Hindu Dharam Asmita and Hindu Samaj Sudhar. I for one have no objection to Hindus embracing Khalsa indeed I feel if a Hindu embraces the Khalsa truly inspired by Gurbani and Gurbachan then it shows progression but are the Sikhs now going to behave like the christus. To me the ideal would be that seeing the selfless example of the Khalsas around them inspired by their Sewa and seeing them live upto the Guru given concepts of Degh, Tegh, Fateh and Nischay Kar apne jeet karo and Kirit Karo vand Chakho naam Japo Hindus are attracted to and embrace the Khalsa. Can there be debate on this."

Sikhs have borrowed not only from Hindus but also from other religions. For example, they borrowed the concepts such as that of langar, covering head and, most importantly, the concept of the Sikh brotherhood akin to Umma from Islam. If you look at the Khanda saheb, it too looks similar to the insignia of Iran. I sometimes view Khalsa as a Hindu soul in a Muslim body.

"5) And finally when the wounds heal then at least can there be a debate on the larger relationship between Hindus and Sikhs."

I hope so.

laddu#161:

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the Akal Takht approves of the changes in ardas by the Finland gurudwara. The use of Bhagwati in ardas is an inconvenient link with Hinduism and does not fit well with the new orthodoxy of Sikhism. Instead of trying to reinterpret it by saying that Bhagwati represents kirpan or bandook, the Akal Takht may accept the modification and create a new rehat-maryada. Fifty years from now, anyone using bhagwati in ardas can then be ousted from the panth in the name of rehat-maryada.

Re: # 165

I am sorry sir what I did not add as a caveat was any of the verses written by the Gurus where the term used for god used is instead of Ram Krishan Hari as Allah. It would include that writing of Nanak where he talks of who the muslims are.

To give a sense I could write Ishwar, Bhagwan, Parmatama, Ram Krishna Hari as a word for the almighty but I would not use allah for god neither do the Gurus. Also as said earlier this is one of their two errors that tey accepted Islam as a religion not bothering to study its source and its teachings to understand what it truly was a perverse, murderous, political, philosophy the typical smug Hindus that they were. Had they done so the response would have been very different.

Sanatani

Re: # 163

Ok also Fen Singh ji,

Let me answer this question according to what you have said. Both the Bible and Koran have reference to jewish prophets. Now what does the Bible say that this is a continuation of the line of Prophets from Judaism and Jesus is the end of the line and brought the final message. Islam says the thing w.r.t to muhammed and both talk of how the last guy perfected the message. The 1 crucial difference being christ does not mention the word christianity but mohammed does Islam.

Regarding the Gurus they make no claim other than being Gurus. They berate the people for their ossification and pseudo religoustic obsessions. They redisitll the ancient books and present them in the people's tongue. While they present new truths they do not call the old ones false in that sense they are no different from the many thousands of sages and Reformers of Hindu Dharam. All the Shiromanis were amongst the greatest masters of Veds and Vedant. They never claimed a break from Dharam. Indeed the last master who was the most learned of them (in fact Shri 1007 Dashmesh was more learned than the first 9 put together) and he put together in his own inimitable style the great ancient traditions and treasures in the realmof the common man.

Now what he SGPC/Akalis and the Akal Takth are saying none of that please we are not a continuation of the past neither have we anything to do with it.

Sanatani

Vaise boss see the irony Sanatani comes from Sanatan another word for the same is Akal thus I am also Akali

bhijjeo sijjeo kambli allah barseo meh
jaye milaN tinhaN sajjnaN tuttey nahiN neh
(Farid)

Awwal allah noor upaaya kudrat key sabh bandey
ek noor tey sabh jagg upajeya kaun bhaley ko mande
(Kabir)

just to show that word 'allah' is tere in Guru Granth Sahib (not to support or negate any arguement in the ongoing discussion at this stage)

Re: # 163

I challenge you to show me the word Allah in either the Adi or Dasham Granths.

This is the problem with you people. You attribute motives where none exist e.g. Guru Nanak started the Sikh Panth as a bridge between Hindusim and Islam. When and where has either Prathamesh or any of his Sakhis imply this motive to him. Do any of the subsequent Guru's refer to this as Baba Nanak's defining mission. Do Prithi Chand and Lakshmi Chand not go through the ceremony get their janeyu do they not marry according to Hindu rites in the Khatri subcastes of the Bedis following the marriage principles of our caste.

Again why do you try and compare Bhartiye and Abrahamic traditions. At no point of time are the Gurus trying to break Dharam they are trying to remove ossification and impurities. Our mind has been so poluted by this Macaulayite system of education that we are not able to see our own heritage and tradition through our own perspective.

Best Regards

Re # 126

Sanatani,
Think about what your'e saying and how silly it looks. I mean the Guru Granth also refers to god as 'allah'...so does that mean that sikhs are muslims ? The christian bible contains hundreds of references to jewish prophets.....so does that mean christianity doesn't really exist ?....its just part of judaism ?

Re: # 156

DM Ji,

As you do not put words in other people's mouths I thinkyou have misunderstood what I was saying. Their is no opposition to idol worship for me and for the most ( in fact it is my attachment to the same and the fact that I claim all of the Hindu heritage as my own from Kahsmir to Kanya Kumari and from Pragjotishpur (Assam) & Manipur to Gandhar) and the Sikhs claim of exclusivity that prevented me from becoming Amritdhari. Again it is not the caste system but Caste Oppression and Caste superiority I have opposed, Dashmesh's statement har Jaat Saman Har Jaat Mahaan is nothing short of revolutionary and indicates the heightened awaremes (Yogic state of a Hindu Sage). At the same time I take back what I said and agree with what you said that today Sikhs and Hindus are separate however personally painful the same is to me.

But if you meet Delhiwala please ask him the following as he refuses to answer my posts:

1) Are the Kesh/Amrit Dharis willing to give up their condescending/insulting attitude towars ok HIndus when it comes to doing Sewa in Gurudwaras. Ok Management in Gurudwaras is your the right to define rehat maryada yours everything yours but CAN THERE BE EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO SEWA. Though unwittingly their attitude has done 1 good thing personally to me it has shown me how Upper Caste Hindus behave with Dalits esp when it comes to religous/temple matters.

2) Is the message of the Gurus for the Punjabis only or for Hindu society at large and should steps be taken to have ATTRACTION if not PROMOTION of this message.

3) This is prompted by Laddu "and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh" may I humbly ask did the Guru ask anyone for this and should not the first four and a willingness to abide by Sikh Rehat maryada be enough. By this definition is the SGPC/Akal Takth not sitting on judgement on the Guru's Bani/Vachan.

4) This is prompted by you "they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus", is the mission of the Khalsa ONLY to be tonclaim their share of Hindus. Do the Sikhs feel they owe nothing to the Mother Religion from which they have taken so much for example things like Hindu Dharam Asmita and Hindu Samaj Sudhar. I for one have no objection to Hindus embracing Khalsa indeed I feel if a Hindu embraces the Khalsa truly inspired by Gurbani and Gurbachan then it shows progression but are the Sikhs now going to behave like the christus. To me the ideal would be that seeing the selfless example of the Khalsas around them inspired by their Sewa and seeing them live upto the Guru given concepts of Degh, Tegh, Fateh and Nischay Kar apne jeet karo and Kirit Karo vand Chakho naam Japo Hindus are attracted to and embrace the Khalsa. Can there be debate on this.

5) And finally when the wounds heal then at least can there be a debate on the larger relationship between Hindus and Sikhs.

6) Furthermore Laddu has raised important points even if he has raised them impertinently they should not be glossed over.

7) Last not least please ask DW if he is condoning the murder of the Ravidasia just because he made a mistake.

Sanatani

When Khalaistani -Ulemas want to Semitize Sikhi into one-dog religion this is what they do- they abuse Shri obind Singh saheb. They even try to create a Seimitic Praody of daily ARDAS by mutilating the tradition,

shame upon this Khalistani Ulemas-

"Finland gurdwara faces Takht action for changes in ardas
Varinder Walia
Tribune News Service

Amritsar, May 24
Peeved over a change in the ardas (Sikh prayer) by a gurdwara in Finland, Giani Gurbachan Singh, Jathedar of Akal Takht, has decided to call a meeting of the Sikh clergy at Akal Takht Secretariat for taking a strict action as per maryada against the persons responsible for the violation of the Sikh code.

The gurdwara of Finland kicked off a row by taking a unanimous decision to replace the first line of the ardas from “Pritham Bhaugauti simar ke….� to “Akal Purakh simar ke….� Moreover, the gurdwara added to the ardas the mention of the 35 Bhagtas whose holy verses are included in Guru Granth Sahib.

As approved by the SGPC and Akal Takht, the Sikh prayer begins with “Pritham Bhaugauti simar ke… (first remembering sword).

The ardas mainly comprises three parts. It begins with holy verses by describing the role of the first nine Gurus in relation to God, then about Guru Gobind Singh, followed by the important milestones in the Sikh history.

Thereafter, it includes a plea to God for grace on the whole of the humanity and the Khalsa and ends with the purpose of the gathering. Although on most of the occasions the whole of the ardas is recited, at certain occasions a shorter version of it is recited.

Meanwhile, Sikhs in Finland have objected to the change in the first stanza of the ardas. One of them said: “I don’t mind the 35 Bhagtas in the ardas, but the first part is from Guru Gobind Singh’s Dasam Bani, Chandi Di Vaar and hence could not be changed�.

Akal Takht has received a number of petitions from across the world describing the act of the Finland gurdwara as “a gross violation of the Sikh maryada�. They have said the “self-styled Sikh scholars� did not know that “Bhaugauti� is not the name of any god or goddess but means “kirpan� (sword worn by a baptised Sikh).

The Jathedar has appealed to the Sikh sangat not to get carried away by the violation of the Sikh code by the Finland gurdwara."

Re: # 153

"Very rarely you will see Sehajdharis in that role(most of the gurudwaras have no restriction on this who can or cannot do this Sewa). Singing Kirtan, not many sehajdharis do so(in comparison), there is no one stopping them."

This is incorrect. Look into the "maryada" circulated by SGPC. Those who are not a 'Sikh', as per the definition of SGPC,cannot sing any shabad of Gurus in congregation -

"
a) Only a Sikh may perform Kirtan in a congregation. "

here is the definition of Sikhi-

"he Definition of Sikh :

Article I
Any human being who faithfully believes in
i. One Immortal Being,
ii. Ten Gurus, from Guru Nanak Sahib to Guru Gobind Singh Sahib,
iii. The Guru Granth Sahib,
iv. The utterances and teachings of the ten Gurus and
v. the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru, and who does not owe allegiance to any other religion, is a Sikh
"

here is the tricky part -

"..the baptism bequeathed by the tenth Guru..."

dw#153:

No apologies necessary. You are merely expressing your views.

#157

I am totally against violence to resolve ideological issues and hence condemned this murder of this sant baba. BUT I have to agree with dilli that if a Jatt baba sat next to SGGS and worshiped by followers, these hard liners would be as much against him.
There are hundreds of babas in Punjab who are worshiped/matha take by their followers but they all know this sensitive point and don't sit next to SGGS to do that.

DM, it was a wrong choice of wording. My apologies...
It was posted from my blackberry in haste.

I meant to ask was where is the issue/conflict of Sehajdharis versus Keshdhari+Amritdhari?

Where do you see the hot-spot that made you write this article?

BTW, Vienna issue, even though has been made to look like a Caste-divide matter by the media, but the people who killed the Ravidasia Baba, killed him because in their mind he was equating himself to the SGGSJ.

I dont think that they killed him because he was of low caste. these Radicals would have killed him, even if he belonged to a high caste, just like Nirankari Baba was killed(caste was not a factor then).

Caste did play a part in alienating Ravidasias to form separate Gurudwara otherwise.

Also, I wonder why Ramgarias have their own Gurudwaras too, they are not treated negatively, at least in my own view-point.

delhiwala#155:

Where have I condemned amritdharis? My father was an amritdhari and he did not have an iota of negativity towards anyone. He would have been aghast if anyone suggested to him that anyone who is not an amritdhari or a keshadhari is not a sikh. In fact, he would sometimes take out his harmonium on Krishan Janam-Ashtami and sing the shabad: "Saas saas japiye Gobind".

I think that there is nothing wrong in the Sikh clergy to encourage people to become amritdharis; indeed, as Sanatani has suggested, they should go out of Punjab and claim their share of Hindus who are unhappy with the Hindu caste system or idol worship.

Mr Pablo:
Issue has been discussed around for Keshdhari and Sehajdhari until now.
I am not an Amritdhari Sikh but I am a Keshdhari.

where am I doing castigation? I am merely posing a question because I could not pin point the specific issue instead condemning Amrtidharis by Laddo and the rest.
As far as Sehajdharis are concerned and their level of commitment to the existing/prevailing practice of SEWA in the Gurudwaras that is what I am benchmarking(based on observations). Does that bother you? Be specific please.
you are reaching at too many conclusions too fast.

deliwala....before you were talking about amritdhari....now you are talking about keshdari. Not the same. So who is the only true Sikhs, the amritdhari or the keshdari? If amritdari, then you have to automatically exclude 90% of Sikhs from the Sikh panth worldwide. You do a good job of non-stop castigation and belittling of sehajdharis.....it is a question of ever decreasing circles....I feel you will only be happy when there are maybe 100,000 Sikhs left in the world, because you suggested to everyone else to 'start their own religion'. Also think about that when living in the West, in America and so on, and when it comes to playing the numbers game, Sikh organisations and activists boast about X,000,000's of Sikhs, but when it doesn't suit their purpose, castigate and sneer and marginalise all non amritdhari Sikhs. Then the Sikh population will be in the tens of thousands.

DM:
That you know of, is there any independent group, collection of Sehajdhari Sikhs, that we are constantly talking about? Is that just a term? what is the issue here?

Do you personally have any grudge against the Sikhs definition and how does it bother you?
If there is enough momentum or demand then there are always means to achieve the result. After all Nirankaris are a separate faith.
If I was a sehajdhari and so motivated then I would do something about it and create my own version of the faith. That would be the logical thing to do.

Let others follow their own faith as they perceive it, i.e. Amritdharis.

Based on the practical experience of living in Sikh/Punjabi World. Sehajdharis, generally speaking are those who tend to stay away from the Gurudwaras or Religious matters.

In other words, there is no organized institution of Non-Gursikhs(5Ks).

One of the ritual of going to a Gurudwara is bowing to SGGSJ, then there has to be someone sitting on the Tabba.

Very rarely you will see Sehajdharis in that role(most of the gurudwaras have no restriction on this who can or cannot do this Sewa). Singing Kirtan, not many sehajdharis do so(in comparison), there is no one stopping them.

Sehajdhari Sikhs(pick Chowkies for example), how many of them go to the Gurudwara and do Sewa in comparison to Keshdharis?

In my experience for the most part Sehajdharis tend to stay away from Gurudwaras.

Frankly, I am not sure what the pitch or the issue is on behalf of Non-Keshdharis. It just seems to me that break everything around Sikhi, sow the seed of confusion and let it fall(this is very typical)

- Is it that Sikhi's definition itself is questionable? Upto what point, let us say for the sake of argument, 5Ks dont exist, then should SGGSJ be also removed, what is left then? Dasam Granth revers Hindu Gods, so Guru Gobind Singh Jee is pro-hindu, but his other order to wear 5Ks was only meant for very few people.

either way I skin this argument, from any what-so-ever perspective, it sounds hollow.

If I were attacking Sikhs intellectually, I would simply disown everything around all the Gurus except Guru Nanak.
But RSS cannot do so, because they have made 10th Guru as the pillar of Hindus.


- Amritdharis are evil and should be removed?
- Sehajdharis are also Sikhs, but Sikhs definition is not defined? Except people like Laddo and his Sanstha defines it.

So far what I have seen is negation of everything but not what is to be?

I am interested in listening from drlokraj, pablo and dullahbhatti.

Pablo#151:

Yes, I did read that article. I too am not pessimistic, except that the orthodoxy has a 'brahm-astra' of "panth khatre mein" which acts on the Sikh psyche in the same way that "islam in danger" works on the Muslim psyche. However, this brahm-astra is used only when akalis are not in power.

Dost Mittar did you read that article I posted written by Sathnam Sanghera who is a British journalist, what did you think about it.

You see he highlights something....that the levels of religious observance amongst Sikhs are so varied and heterodox and plural that it will go against the entire grain of Sikhs to try and homogenise it so much. At some level, institutional religion has to acknowledge and reflect the diversity of practise and that is why I am not pessimistic in the long term....you can't go against the easy-going, tolerant instincts and versatility of the mass number of Sikhs when it comes to the religion.

Dost # 147,


"I wouldn't be surprised if you are a troll posing as a Hindu"

You beat me in posting the same.

Adios

correction to #146:

"or even a dalit" should read "or even a dalit convert to Buddhism".

Re: # 146

"his essay is not about whether Sikhs are Hindus or not, but the right of a coterie of politicians to decide who has the right to call himself or herself a Sikh."

I am NOT claiming that Sikhs are hindus or some thing else. I am also questioning the claims of Amritdharis and all those self proclaimed jyanis, Sants and Mahatmas to be the sole custodian of defining Sikhi!!

ramchandar:

You are a sufficient reason for Sikhs to not only not consider themselves to be Hindus but also hate them. However, I wouldn't be surprised if you are a troll posing as a Hindu.

laddu, sanatani:

You are trying to use history to show how Sikhs are part of the Hindu family. One could accept that Sikh gurus were Hindus and that Sikhism started as a sect of Hindus and still believe that Sikhism now is a separate religion. As far as I know, Guru Nanak never renounced the religion of his birth. But then, neither did Buddha; despite giving a message very different from the reigning orthodoxy, Buddha was born and died a Hindu (or whatever his faith of birth was called then), yet try telling a Thai, a Cambodian or even a dalit that he is a Hindu and he will not accept it. Even Christianity started out as a sect of Judaism; Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew; yet who would claim that Jews and Christians are the same. I can give also the opposite example - Brahmo Samaj started out as a separate religion but very few Brahmo Samajis today would be considered as anything but Hindus. Religions evolve as has Sikhism.

This essay is not about whether Sikhs are Hindus or not, but the right of a coterie of politicians to decide who has the right to call himself or herself a Sikh.

Re: # 143

absolutely WRONG.

There are many Amritdharis who are worthy of respect, but recall there were many evil ones like Bhindrawale.

My point is that unlike what Delhiwala claims Amritdharis DO NOT DEFINE sikhi.

His harangue against sehajdharis is all nonsense and reeks of brahminical exclusivism and ritualism that Guru Nanka so preached against.

Ramchander, your posts are not worthy of your name. We have enough problems within our communities, why add more.

"If Guru Gobind Singh says that he was a hindu Yogi in the past life and was re-incarnated to save Hindu dharma then you accuse me of being a fanatic??"

++++++

Laddu, my late grandfather was an amritdhari who went on pilgrimage to Hemkund Sahib. And yet according to you, he was, like all amritdharis, actually part of an 'Ulema' type of negationist. All you do is demonize amritdharis, and that is hysteria and fanaticism.

"Why Sikhs are suffering from small dick syndrome?"

+++++++

You're projecting your own complex onto others --- please see someone to deal with your issues.

Nice article by British journalist Sathnam Sanghera

++++++

There were riots across northern India last week after a shooting at a Sikh temple in Austria resulted in the death of a sect leader and, given that Punjabi culture is something I bang on about on occasion, it wasn’t surprising, I suppose, that a couple of news producers rang, asking me to put the disturbances into context.

I declined because: (a) as a community we are only just learning to talk about ourselves, and too often any kind of commentary is taken as criticism; (b) commenting about religion is a dangerous business when people are being killed and one has absolutely no theological authority; (c) I feel about broadcasting the way many feel about general anaesthetic (you should do it only when you absolutely need to); but mainly because (d) it’s quite hard to explain what Sikhism actually stands for.

You see, one of the founding principles of the monotheistic religion, established in the late 15th century by Guru Nanak, was opposition to Hinduism’s oppressive caste system. Yet the world’s fifth largest organised religion has a caste system of its own, with differences between Jat Sikhs (a group that I belong to and which makes up about two thirds of Sikh society) and non-Jat castes, such as the Ramgarhias, remaining a source of political, social and religious tension.

Even in Britain you’ll find different Sikh temples belonging to different groups on the same road, and — according to some media reports last week, many of them disputed by the groups involved — the violence in Austria was sparked after orthodox Sikhs from one caste objected to preachers from another caste being disrespectful towards the Sikh Holy Book.

Related Links
Riots after Sikh guru shot dead in Vienna
From Punjab to Putney: the rise of British Sikhism
Also, officially, Sikhs don’t worship human beings, since Guru Gobind Singh, the tenth Sikh guru, named Guru Granth Sahib, the Holy Book, as his successor. But certain Sikh sects do believe in living human gurus, some mainstream Sikh families revere spiritual figures and ancestors, and — according to some media reports, again disputed by the groups involved — the violence in Austria was sparked when members of a certain sect gave the Guru Granth Sahib pride of place next to photographs and idols of their own human “gurus�.

Then there’s the issue of booze. Officially, Sikhs don’t drink, and some families don’t even allow alcohol to be kept in their houses.

But as the academics Gurharpal Singh and Darshan Singh Tatla point out in Sikhs in Britain: The Making of a Community: “Consumption of alcohol has always been high among Sikhs, with the per capita rate among Sikhs of Punjab among the highest in the world� and “a particularly distinctive feature of British Sikh society today� being “the high rate of alcoholism among males . . . Consumption rates are higher than in any other ethnic minority and in the white community.�

There are other contradictions. Sikhs are meant to adopt the name “Singh�, meaning “lion�, as a way of encouraging equality (one’s caste can often be identified by a surname), but many of us use it only as a middle name. The Gurus declared men and women to be equal, but Punjabi culture is highly patriarchal. Sikhism is the only major world religion that acknowledges that other religions are a valid way of reaching God, but some believers risk being disowned for marrying outside of their religion.

Also, Sikhs, partly as a result of having no clergy (the idea is that everyone can be directly in touch with God without priests) and partly as a result of factionalism, have never been very good at building institutions to represent them, and yet have had great success campaigning on issues such as the right to wear the turban, so much so that Sikhs can legally ride a motorbike with a turban instead of a helmet. When, the other week, the police announced that they were developing a bulletproof turban, apart from a few tiresome jokes about the “turbanator�, there were almost no objections from any quarters. Imagine the fuss there would have been if the religious headwear in question had been a burka.

And if there is anything that epitomises the fluidity of Sikhism, it is the turban. Long hair, beards and colourful headwear are synonymous with the religion — I kept my own hair unshorn until the age of 14 — but if you ask any Sikh why they keep their hair uncut, they will give you a different answer.

Some say that it’s a way of showing respect for the God-given form; some that it is a way of expressing love for God (like a married person would wear a wedding ring); some link it to intelligence, health and spirituality; some say that Guru Gobind Singh made the keeping of unshorn hair mandatory to give Sikhs a binding identity. There are others who will argue that long hair isn’t actually necessary to be a Sikh.

In fact, a great many Sikhs, if not the majority, don’t have long hair and don’t sport turbans. And those with turbans are not necessarily hugely religious: I know one turbaned man who runs that most un-Sikh of things, an English pub; another who started wearing a turban simply because he had developed a bald patch; another who is actually an atheist.

As it happens, I don’t think that these ambiguities are necessarily a problem. Such issues crop up with all organised religions, and for me, and I am a believer, the massive variation in observance is appealing, as you’re basically left to define your own religiosity. Not least, it’s an expression of another of Sikhism’s fundamental teachings, that empty ritual is meaningless, and it ensures that believers concentrate on the things that really matter, namely “Nam simran� (meditation on and awareness of God) and “Sewa� (community service).

But the concerning thing about last week’s events is that we seem to have another contradiction developing. This most modern and liberal of world religions, which allows its believers to develop their own relationship with God, is developing a fundamentalist streak, with certain people determined to tell others what to believe and how to believe it, under pain of death if necessary.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/sathnam_sanghera/article 6407907.ece

Dear Dost

You see I am also suffering from Laddu's bimaari of sending post after post.

Why Sikhs are suffering from small dick syndrome? Delhiwala has lost all his sense of humor and has become so obsessed with Akali version of Sikhi which has got nothing to do with iconoclastic sikhi of Guru's.

What Akali's and SGPC did to Sikhi is similar to what Koran does to Muslims.

For example earlier the picture's of Guru Nanak were drawn as clean shaven without a pugaree. Nanak was portrayed as having a nice Rajesh Khanna style hair style with a beautiful red Tilak. He just looked so nice and cute.

What Akali and SGPC did to old chap was put a pugaree on his head with one stroke of brush with white paint they drew his beard. To do more damage to simple soul of Nanak they painted his eyes like bagla bhagat half open half closed. While they were their they might as well painted a bundle of beedis next to Nanak and in bold gurmukhi letters they could have written
"Nanak Chaap Beedi".
Below that they could have written

jis man ko vasant ki lage na so
us jeev ko pilao Nanak Chaap Beedi.

Re: # 136

Ramchandar ji,

Yeh kahan se seekh ke aa gaye aap. If u make comments like this it makes me want to strangulate you and slowly at that.

Just to protest your ignoramousness I hereby expel the Sikhs from the fold of Hindu Samaj and confer on them the right to monopolise the Guru's Bani, Granths and Shabads.

As stated earlier there are only 12 Hindus in India and I do not recall anyone having your name.

DW aap jete we are not one. But tell me what should I do with my son.

Sanatani

Dear Friends

What is this talk about Sikh Maryada?

O yaar you could not coin a word in gurmukhi ( Hindi with strange lipi).

( Delhiwala I am stirring you up now)

Dost even you are also following organizational line. Et tu Dost.

From your post Sikhism does not seem to be individual's headache.

I can only make fun of this.

Keshdhari sikhan no Sikhani Daan
Dahi daan
Ustra daan
Kenchi daan
Dhuppay beth ke
Sir munnan
Dar Dar de dhakkey khan
Sarrey Khottey mil ke bolan
Wah-e-gur ji da khalsa
Wah-e-gur ji di vi phattey

Re: # 14

Vaise Pardesi in response to this "Many sikhs feel that hindu india is too big and will never incorporate values they hold so dear. In fact they think sikhs will become converted back to lazy caste ridden society because ultimately 2% folks have to fit in with the values of the majority for their own survival and prosperity."

In my life I have met only 11 Hindus apart from myself and I see a few here but that is it. I think Hindus are India's most endangered minority.

Else how do you see a government saying 1st right onresources is that of the muslai and how do you explain that the attack on a Harmandir and it did not elicit a murmur of protest by the said Hindus.

Sanatani

Dear Dost

From various post from various people the theme is comming that Sikhs don't want to belong to Hindu Parivar.

First the rivers who move away from their source dry up.

Only Mccalay's Sikhs don't want to be part of Hindu Parivar.

Mccalay's sikhs are the Hindu's who were asked to take Amrit and become Keshdhari when they were joining the British Army. When these Sikhs came back after their retirement back to their villeges first time in history they had regular income in the form of Pension and lot of spare time.

So they tried to capture political power in the Sikhi by capturing the Gurudwara's and moving the Gurudwara away from Hinduism. So the politics of Akialis and SGPC was born.


Hinduism does not depend on Sikhi. Sikhi is the one, that wants to forget or whitewash its Vedantic roots. Sikh guru did not preach anything other than Vedantic philosophy. You can ask Khushwant Singh.

Dost if being Sikh you don't want to be part of Hindu Parivar so be that and be happy. I still like you.

On lighter note let us sa

Wah-e-gur ji da khalsa
Tey Wah-e-gur ji di vi phattey

Ram

And DW Ji,

If it makes you feel better then we will ex-communicate the Arya Samajis from Hindu Dharam declare them non-Hindu.

In fact if you know the kind of indignities they have inflicted on the Sanatanis you would be shocked. Please read SitaRam Goel's how I became a Hindu in which he describes how the numerically strong Aryas would defecate on the GarbaGriha of the Sanatan Dharam Mandir in his village.

Sanatani

Re: # 106

DW Prah,

you said "this is what Guru Gobind Singh Jee sacrificed his children for" the question should have been "is this what Guru Gobind Singh Jee sacrificed his children for".

Sirjee the Guru Shri 1007 Dashmesh Shri Guru Shiromani Shri Guru Gobind Siongh Jee sacrificed his Sons and also his father for the protection of the Hindu Dharam.

Sanatani

Re: # 99

Delhiwale Bhaiya,

It is like this. The AS was useful for a period of time as Dayanand Saraswati was the 1st person who provided Hindu Samaj with anideological critique of Islam and Christianity they have no usefullness now. On the other hand if the Gurus would have done the same then whatever limited usefullness they had would not have been required. The Khalsa is eternal as the threats coming coming to the Hindu Dharma are also eternal.

Anyone way if Sikhs are no Hindus then it is like this you Sikhs are merely servants of the Gurus (Gurnaukar) while we Hindus are their Chahitas (Gurchahite) as it is for us they gave their Sheesh.

Sanatani

laddu, let me inform for your own sake that Amritdhari ulema that you are so against is more likely to believe your Hemkund and reincarnation story than normal sikhs.
same goes for the whole dasam granth thingie. for rest of us Chritropakheyaan can't be from Guru Gobind Singh we know.

Re: # 87

DW Bhaiya,

Yeh BJP Mantra nahin hai.

As regards "1) Total annihilation of Sikhs(natural cause- water down or otherwise dilution, 40-50 years) BJPs Mantra
" rest assured at least this will not happen till I am alive and for it if I have to stud my son with a 100 women I shall do it.

Are Bhai hum Hindu itne bure log nahin hai. The Khalsa is one of the most precious gifts we have we cannot let it go.

Sanatani

Re: # 82

Oh prahji,

We are part of the same family we may debate and even bitterly but not fight. If pablo has said something hurtful please respond to show what he has said is not right.

But you yourself have said the behaviour of Khalsa youth in Canada leaves a lot to be desired and in the same vein you come and say things against Sindhis and Madrassis there is some disconnect.

BTW Madrasis love Langar in and IF YOU BLOODY KESHDAHRIS TRIED A POLCIY OF ATTRACTION towards them then you would see that Akal- BJP alliance sweeping Tamil Nadu 15 years and no prizes for guessing who would be the majority partner.

The bloody Keshdharis is exparastingly said.

Sanatani

Re: # 79

Speaking for the now defunct Mahasabha I would say:

Give all Hindus Khalsa or death BUT

Allow us to worship idols for I FERVETNLY believe the Gurus erred on this one possibly too influenced by muslai iconclasm

And let us face it they were Gurus and would have made a couple of mistakes.

The second one they were too Hindu they did not delve into the political phenomenon called Islam if they did they would have given the message to reconvert them with no quarter for the same.

Sanatani

Re: # 74

Delhiwale Bhaiya,

Bhai Sati Das, Bhai Mati Das and Bhai Dyala were what Amritdharis or Khalsa???

Ok and why this opposition to Ram and Krishna after all the Gurus are their descendants.

Sanatani

Re: # 59

Delhiwale Bhaiya,

And is this a thing of Pride.

Sanatani

Re: # 63

DM Sahib,

done. We will accept Sikhs are not part of the Hindu parivaar and have nothing to do with the Sikhs. Fine remove all refernces of Hindu gods from the Adi Granth substitute Wahe Guru for it. Remove Ram, Krishna, Hari, Shiva from the Adi Granth and then not only will I say that we are totally separate I will even disown my son and send him to a khalsa school paying for his upkeep but never acknowledging him and never see his face all my life.

Sanatani

Re: # 58

Very true most Hindu Mandirs of this scale are not for spirtiuality they are only for Darshan I mean if you have 7-8 seconds to Darshan you will hardly have time for spirituality.

Sanatanit

Re: # 55

Delhiwale bhaiya,

It is nobody's denial that the Khalsa is the most important definition of the Sikh but NOT the ONLY definition. Hell if one had the issue with the Khalsa then why would 1 baptise 1's eldest son as one.

The issues I am raising:

1) Patronising attitude of Keshdharis which at times boils down to downright ridicule and insults to Hindus and Sehajdharis.

2) Like other Indians the Keshas are going from being citizens of their well (Punjab) to Citizens of the world (converting Goras and Kalas to the Khalsa)with no concession for India (no preaching of the shabad and gurbani to India's vast multitudes) LEST if the Tamils, Banglas, Oriyas, Marathas, Dalits etc. en masse embrace the Khalsa disturbing the Jutt/Khatri domination of the SGPC and the vast wealth they control. And Bhai if there would be a concerted effort on JUST ATTRACTION (setting up Gurdwaras in remote areas, having regular Shabad Kirtan and Gurbani and Langar where all castes would eat together and explaing the Gurbani of Har Jaat Saman Har Jaat Mahan) and not PROMOTION/PROSELYTISING (Hear me ye sinners salvation through jesus only) then the number of people who would convert to the Khalsa would bogle your mind

3) Too much concern with the externalities esp Kesh with no concern with the message of the Gurus. No concern with Social reform no concern with female infantcide no opposition to Cow slaughter.

4) An obsession with the fact that being Sikh means we are not Hindu.

Boss people like me are willing to Kill for the Khalsa and its identity but to me it seems like the Thekedars of the Sikh Panth want to kill it.

If today very few Hindus aregiving heir sons to the Khalsa whose loss it is the loss of Hindu Samaj of which the Khalsa is a very important part if not the Most Important part. If the Sikhs as earlier time identified themselves as such the Khalsa would grow and not be swallowed up by Hindu Dharam. Notice the case of the Nanakpanthi Amils (of which Shri LK Advanis family is a part). They were in the 1860's given an ultimatum that either call yourself Sikhs and accpet Kesh or do not call yourself Sikhs. They tried to reason, plead, cajole to no avail. As Advaniji himself said while we have the highest respect for the Shri Granths and the Shri Gurus but equally we are attached to our identity as Hindus and with Hindus Samaj and all other Hindu heroes and saints and gods. Thus forced by this ultimatum they gave up their Sikh identity and became Nanakpanthi Hindus where the Adi Granth has pride of Place and all ceremonies are done as per Sikh rites.

And last but not the least there is no Sikh/Khalsa monoploy on either the Gurus or the Granths. We are willing to be guided by the Panth on matters of Maryada or on how rituals are to be conducted and how some innocous things should not be done as they may be considered not against the Shaan of the Gurus (Guruan de Shaan De Khilaaf) but that is it nothing more than that,

Now if you get angry with Laddu's saying fair enough but that can be ignored. What cannot be ignored is what is happening overall in the affairs of the Khalsa. I firmly beieve that the overall well being of the Sanatan Dharm, Hindu Samaj and Bharat Mata is linked to the Khalsa panth and it pains us when we see it taking a path of folly and disaster.

Sanatani

Alternatively I will agree what I am saying is bunkum if you can show me two things written in the Granths:

1) The Khalsa is for Punjabis only esp upper castes
2) Being Sikh means we are not Hindu.

Delhiwala we are all Hindus to be a Sikh/Khalsa is a privilege which I have given my son and I hope he lives up to it.

If Guru Gobind Singh says that he was a hindu Yogi in the past life and was re-incarnated to save Hindu dharma then you accuse me of being a fanatic??

So Guru Gobind singh saheb was a RSS fanatic as well??

Laddu is a hysterical fanatic.

Re: # 112

These are all acceptable recommendations. (thumbs up icon.)

(and the tricky parts have been identified)

And ofcourse these Amritdhari-Ulemas would like to deny that Guru Gobind Singh was a reincarnation of a Hindu Yogi who practiced Yogic austerities and meditations in the Himalayas.

"I think that we should replace all SGPC and Sikh leadership with proper amritdharis, who show the Rehat Maryada at sustaniable pace for at least 10 year time period.

A committee governed by Sikh code of conduct from original Maryada should deem the present day status of these leaders and replace them if lacking in Sikh values."

So, the Sikh Amritdhari Ulemas are going to decide who is sikh and who is not. And then these Amritdhari-Uleams are going to give out FATWA. Then they would enfore their FATWAS with their Gangsters of "Vice and Virtue Police"?

I would recommend that these political-Amritdharis should convert and become muslims. They probably get to follow a better code that is more sophisticated and has a lot more to offer to them in this life and the after life as well.

Re: # 94

"Amritdharis control all te institutions in sikhism and thats how they dictate to others. Unless this monopoly is broken, sikhism can not dream of increasing its reach and will keep on shrinking further."

This is the reality. Amritdhari dukaan daari must END.

Amritdharis trying to assume that they are the favoured Sunnis of Sacche Padshah is the biggest joke!!

Re: # 74

"Issue here is that when Sehajdhari Sikhs (with strong Political backing) are redefining the Sikhi. such as admission to colleges, Rehat Maryada etc.

If they had it their way they would install Ram, Krishna and Geeta in Harimandir Sahib. In fact this was already done in last century.

Es Sikhi de peechay bahut Khoon dullya hai, te oho khoon kevel tau keval Amritdhariya hi si.
With passive backing of Sehajdhari Sikhs."

Yes, a lot of blood had flown during the last decades in Punjab BECAUSE of these so-called Amrit-dharis - and all those Amritdharis of Bhindrawale Gang were Khalisthanis!!

Some ex-pats ISI agents are trying to do the same that they have done with ex-pat Punjabi muslims. USE Amritdhari- Islamists as a sign of purity and exclusivity so that those who follow the Sunnat-code would be able to capture political power and Gurudwaras.

This is a political game of exclusivity and one up man ship by the so-called Amritdharis so as different voices about Sikhi can be suopressed and their DIKTAT (remember the DIKTAT-s of Bhidrawale and his Gang much like the DIKTATs of Talibani leaders) can be imposed upon ordinary people who follow Sikhi and Gurus message!!

These politcal-Amritdharis are the worst of scum who have no right to impose their definition of sikhi on others!!

You are a sucker for small gratification. I was merely pumping you....just kidding...

# 113 DW .. Thank you Delhi, see how I sold you on many points so easily :)

AsatyaVivadi Jee:
Aap barrey hi vichitra prakar ke namoonay hai.

Sikh ka keval ek pehlo jo Sher Dil Jawano ko Pran nichawar karney ke pugg per le jaata hai...woh hai Sikhi Ka Adoll Pana evam apnee Anakh ko hamesha kayam rakhna.

Ye keval Ek Sikh hi samajh sakta hai baher ka intellectual nahee samajh saktaa.

agar Aaj ham Internet per Chat kar rahe hai uska sirf ek hi reason hai amritdhari/Keshdhari Sikho ki qurbania.

Warna hamara naam o nishan nahee tha.

Nanak Panthis dont exist but Khalsa Panth does. Ever wonder why?

Pardesi, you sound like my boss(executive on wall st).

After whole Ramayan is done, you come from some obscure place and summarize the whole Vaad-vivad/material in fine MS-Word editable text.
Isko kehte hai professionalism....kudos to you!

My first job was with Norwest Mortgage Minnesota as a consultant and there was a prevalent joke...

consultant is someone who borrows your watch to tell you the time and then walks away with it....I dont know why but your post reminded me of the same.

First of all DM sahib, thanks for organizing this world wide sangat meeting with nice feedback from our non-sikh friends :).

In order to position us for longer term, we must all agree that:

1. We all are EQUAL in the eyes of almighty - whether we choose to sport beard/turban or not AND no matter which caste we belong to. Let's not forget, we live in the age of equal citizenship rights whether we are in the west or India. No one will like to go to Gurudwara on sunday to become second class sikh.

2. We will always pay respect to all the Ks that were necessary 300-400 years back (to get organized for huge mission to fight oppression) and as a token of respect for 10th guru SGGS who motivated us do what's right at any cost.

3. We need to realize that caste system is very very deep in our psyche and it will take many generations to root it out. Therefore let there be many gurudwaras and let people go wherever they feel happy and welcome. Over time we will visit different gurudwaras and learn some thing form each other.

4. The fact that we are asking our hindu friends to give us some space for our own growth in order to feel secure within our own identity (especially after events of 1984) does not mean that we are denying our indian roots or for many of us hindu roots (there were many muslims who converted also). Over time, hopefully, we can repair the damage done as long as we ALL (sikhs, hindus, delhi rulers who are experts at playing hardball against each other without any thought about consequences) learn from our mistakes.

5. The toughest part will be how to deal with SGPC issues and who is authorized to vote and how these various gurudwara leaders will vote. This will take time and lots of tolerance will need to develop between various sikh "branches". Let's leave these issues for next generation :)

I should add:

Net-net a BIG thumbs up for Sikhs and Sikhism.

Sikhism and Sikhs:
Thumbs up:
Simplicity of Religion and Lack of Rituals
Lack of superstition
Dignity of Labor
Courage of Convictions
Thumbs down:
Keeping long hair,turbans and other silly traditions and rituals (Anachronistic and silly in the present scenario; justified when originally proclaimed by Guru Gobindsinghji)
Paranoia about Hindus/Haryanvis etc
Sense of being owed to by everyone and especially Hindus

I think that we should replace all SGPC and Sikh leadership with proper amritdharis, who show the Rehat Maryada at sustaniable pace for at least 10 year time period.

A committee governed by Sikh code of conduct from original Maryada should deem the present day status of these leaders and replace them if lacking in Sikh values.

Committe membership itself is scrutinised on a monthly basis with rotation.

For Panthic and community related matters, all Sikhs(Sehajdhari or otherwise) should register on Sikh website(TBD) and collectively give votes to important matters(kinda like French and Anglaise debate in Quebec)

We do need reform but for betterment not for conforming to the World.

Otherwise take it or leave it.

dude you are something.
you are the one who is attacking Sikhi everyday on chowk not I.

I understand that in Pyschology they teach how to make a point without criticizing others but in DESI world it never works.

Arya Samajis and Hariyanvi's are anti-Sikh and that is what it is... comprende senor!!

delhiwala

no use of pointing fingers at external forces--arya samaj or haryanvis or RSS or whatever. The faults lie within and thats where the corrective measures are needed.

Sikhi has never succumbed to any pressures from outside - thats rather what has always made us stronger. Mughal period was the wort period for sikhi and thats when sikhi became strongest.

based on drlokraj's logic, Khalsa will be finished or at best reduced to Monks(like in Spanish abbeys).
wow....

What a price Sikhi has to pay for someone to adjust in West for quick dates, and not explain himself periodically...

this is what Guru Gobind Singh Jee sacrificed his children for???

the hindu folks should keep in mind that sikhs are a small minority in india. And like all small minorities they are in some danger of being swallowed up by the majority population, especially as hindu-sikh family relations are routine. So naturally, there is some going to some anxiety and upsettedness, and yes, rigidity as well.

So why dont some of the hindu-sikh same-same fellows come up with some scheme for preserving the traditional or orthodox sikh roop with dastar and beard and so on? How can that be encouraged? I think that would definitely help with sikh feelings of being marginalized.

Sheru,
Khalsa is part of sikhi and thats what it should remain- just one part and attaining that level has to be individual achievment based on the deeds, devotion and willingness to bring onesef to that level, I don't think it needs to be advertised. I feel the creation of hierarchy within sikh fold based on this factor is detrimental and is sure to drive people away specially when highly derogatory terms like 'patit' are used to describe them. Taking amrit or not is an individual's personal decision and should not determine a sikh's social position within the community.

Weather in Ottawa was rain off-and-on until yesterday, but it is nice and sunny today. But it is still cool for this time of the year.

Sure, give me a call before you arrive. Maybe we can go to the gurudwara together and listen to the ragi-jatha from Srinagar.

How is the weather in Ottawa?
I am planning on going to 1000 Islands, I might make a detour and have your darshan(if you like).

delhiwala:

Your cousin is not unique. I would suggest that you read Shauna Singh Baldwin's excellent novel "What the Body Remembers". It tells the story of two brothers, one of whom is made a Sikh by his father and the other turns into an arya samaji.

Amrit Sanchar should be available anywhere there are Panj Piyare available.

In fact we should also change the ceremony and promote it, instead of keeping it private.

Because our youngsters do not see Amrit Sanchar, they would not even know about it.

If they see it, they will develop interest. Many young kids in West are keeping hair when their parents dont.
Especially in UK and Canada.

DM Sir,
My cousins (Sial family), whose Grand Father was a Amritdhari Sikh, are now Hindus.

After the 1984 riots, one of them casually asked me how did I manage to survive and said a stupid Sardar joke comparing Sikh to an Ostrich or something like that.

If my own blood, who is an Arya Samaji, then how much hatered is prevalent among them due to their scriptures and fake Swamis.

Another example is actor Dharmender Deol, who is a pucca Arya Samaji.

dlr#94:

".if someone wants to partake amrit he/she can do at any of the 5 takts."

This has changed now. Our local gurudwara arranges and promotes "amrit-chhakna" at least once a year in the local gurudwara.

delhiwala#88:

"Problem lies with Arya Samajis and Hariyanvi(ex Punjabis) who are bent upon destroying Sikhs."

Arya Samajis are the closest to wahabi hindus there are: they believe that they are the true hindus and everyone else is 'patit'.

As for Haryanvi (ex punjabis) and other punjabi hindus, you are right that they are the strongest opponent to the Sikh identity. But, in my opinion, they do so not due to any hostility towards Sikhs or Sikh identity but because they love them as their own and cannot bear the pain of separation. You can feel that pain in Sanatani's posts.

DM Sir,
I think that any sensible person agrees in inclusion.
But the issue is with those people who are bent upon breaking Sikhi and redefining it.

Drlokraj: nobody disputes what you are wirting(except #4).

Politics and Religion are one and the same for Sikhs. Our Gurus kept Religion and Politics together.

Otherwise what is the need to have Sikhs, by your Freudian definition, everyone can be a good person, then why even bother to follow a religion. Let us all become Communists. right..

Sheru#89:

Excellent post.

However, I would not have any negative definitions. Faith is an individual matter and if these people believe that they are Sikhs, why should anyone throw them out of the panth? For example, there are many keshadhari sikhs, esp. non-khatri/non-jatts, who worship Chandi and believe, right or wrong, that the tenth guru did so, too.

Isn't it paradoxical when one has to talk abouut bondaries of an order which took its birth in response to te strangulating boundaries of the main faiths of that time?
Guru Gobind Singh, after creating the Khalsa never said that those who do not partake amrit will be no more sikhs. He created Khalsa from within the sikh mat and Khalsa was supposed to be the humblest of all becase being Khalsa means killing your 'ego' and dedicating yourself to serve the humanity; but what we see now is that amritdharis are the most arrogant, not different at all from the prototypal 'tilakdhari brahman.

what needs to be done?

1. define sikh just as someone who declares hiself/herself to be so and respects SGGS, 10 gurus and all those whose baani is included in SGGS.

2.Dukaandaari of 'amrit chhakao' needs to stop..if someone wants to partake amrit he/she can do at any of the 5 takts.

3 Non amritdharis should be allowed to be members/office bearers of SGPC shoud be able to take part in manageent/seva of gurudwaras and also should be abe to conduct paath/akhandpaath etc.

4. gurudwaras should not be allowed to be used for any political activities and politics and reigion need to be kept separate.

5. The tradition of issuing hukamnamas and excommunicating people needs to be stopped.

Amritdharis control all te institutions in sikhism and thats how they dictate to others. Unless this monopoly is broken, sikhism can not dream of increasing its reach and will keep on shrinking further.

not all akalis are bad either but mostly are BJP puppets.

Joker Navjot S Sidhu makes me feel sad for Sikhs.

Amritdharis and Sehjdharis are internal matters within Sikhism and we dont need Congress or BJP to decide them for us.
------------------

Dilli pai, I would add that Akalis should not be the ones deciding it either. They are in cahoots with BJP plus their own political interest in showing they are the only protectors of faith.

DM Sir:
In fact in Dasam Granth, I have read at some place where Guru Gobind Singh says that he restored the lost Rajouti Aan(lost pride of Rajputs).

I will try to find the exact stanza.

Sheru BaiJee:
Well said, I am cent percent in agreement with you.
Now go and tell people like Drlokraj, who are always attacking Amrtidharis and looking for faults.

Dont Sikhs say in Ardas, Akhar Wada Ghatta Muaff Karna,
do not see the faults of others.

Amritdharis and Sehjdharis are internal matters within Sikhism and we dont need Congress or BJP to decide them for us.

1. Khalsa sikhs need to loosen up their attitude towards non-amritdharis and mona sikhs. If they alienate these groups from the Sikh Panth by putting them down or treating them lesser beings it would be a very tragic for all sikhs. non-amritdhari sikhs are sikhs as long as they don't worship any God other than Waheguru.

2. Creating boundaries is a tricky business..you want to have some boundaries for your survival and at the same time don't want to suffocate yourself. SGPC is indeed going too far in emphasizing the outward appearance - 'soorat' of a Sikh while I have never ever seen them doing anything to emphasize the 'seerat' of a sikh. SGPC has in its ranks, smugglers, criminals and corrupt probably in a higher proportion than in the general sikh sangat. Things like girl's eye-brow case in court are despicable coming from a religious organization. I personally know of more than 1 SGPC member whose family members are clean shaven and women thread eye-brows etc. This is most hypocrite on the part of SGPC.

3. Khalsas are part of the core of the Sikh faith and the highest stage a Sikh could attain in the search of God traveling the path shown by the Guru. It is unfortunate to take it as the starting point or the only point in this spiritual journey.

4. Just as mona sikhs should not be condemned or out-casted, Khalsa sikhs should not be considered obsolete either. bakwaas like we are in modern times, Khalsa is not needed anymore should be pointed out for what it is - bakwaas, hidden agendas of Laddus of this world. The problem in front of Sikhism is how to keep the together the Khalsa panth and the larger Sikh panth in the fold. It is not anything new either...it has co-existed for 300 years. we need to keep the politics out of it and leave it to the faith.

Guru Gobind Singh Jee was also inspired by Rajputs, Singh and Kaur were Rajput in origin.

There is no denial here.

DM Sir,
In NJ and NY, even in the Gurudwara where Khalistanis rule(Glen Rock and Bridgewater), Sindhis do come frequently.

they can be seen doing Sukhmani Sahib's paath every Friday without a break(more dedicated).

I also used to know few Sindhi Keshdhari/amritdhari Sikhs(but they were exception than norm).


Problem lies with Arya Samajis and Hariyanvi(ex Punjabis) who are bent upon destroying Sikhs.

From the Sikhs perspective, they had Soverignity that was lost to English. End of the day British left India and broke Legacy Sikh Kingdom into Pakistan and India. they both were countryless before and now have countries.

All of a sudden Sikhs are alienated(mostly their own leadership at fault).

Someone tells them that they are Hindus now or part of them. All of their previous generations they have been raised with the fact they are not Hindus and frankly are superior in every respect.

That would also explain the fact that Punjabi Hindus(Arya Samajis) would not inter-merge with UP or Bihari Hindus.

Sikh issue is a complex issue. It can only be solved with following:

1) Total annihilation of Sikhs(natural cause- water down or otherwise dilution, 40-50 years) BJPs Mantra
2) Sikh Soverignity within India(special status like Kashmir/himachal/Uttarkhand etc)
3) Separate Nation politically.

delhiwala#70:

There is a need to understand the behaviour of the Sindhi children in the gurudwara. I am surprised that you actually saw any Sindhis in the gurudwara at all. Sindhi Hindus of my generation were among the most ardent Sehjadharis although you would hardly see any Keshadhari sindhi [I suspect that they moved from Punjab to Sindh sometimes before the tenth guru ordained the Khalsa]. They knew about the maryada of the gurudwaras. However, Sindhis, like many other Hindus stopped going to the gurudwaras after 1984 and very few of them are regular visitors to the gurudwaras now. Part of the reason is that most of the gurudwars, including the one in Ottawa, went into the control of "tataas" who installed Khalistani slogans and gory pictures of Bindranwale and others killed in Operation Bluestar. The children of the old "sehjadharis" now go to mandirs instead of gurudwaras. [especially since the mandirs have also started serving langars, which they call prasad ;)].

Maharana#78:

You have raised a number of issues which are outside the scope of this article. There is a lot that is known about Bhindranwale, like his creation by Indira-Zail Singh to counter the Akalis in Punjab. He did create a reign of terror and a sort of parallel govt. in Punjab for a while. His cassettes were full of hatred towards the Hindus , but it is not true that he killed thousands of people, and he did not openly ask for Khalistan.

I think that the primary reason for schism between Hindus and Sikhs is the Sikh search for a separate identity but this could not have taken place without predictable reaction from Hindus, especially Punjabi Khatri Hindus, who always thought of Sikhs as one of them and were unwilling to let go off them. That is still the case as you can see from the reactions of Punjabi Hindus on this board.

BTW, I suspect that the tenth Sikh guru was inspired by Rajputs in adopting "singh" and "kaur" as the Sikh names.

delhiwala#77:

Yes, I am in Ottawa this week and weekend. BTW, Bhai Harjinder Singh of Srinagar and his jatha are in Ottawa Gurudwara from today until Sunday.

delhiwala you display all the intolerance and thin skinned pomposity that your words would suggest.

I don't give my endorsment to anyone, so shove it up your nose.

If you can't take discussion and comeback to your comments stay off the internet, and get that chip off your shoulder. If you can act like an adult, do so. First of all....grow up and be a man, not a sulking teenager.

Then discussion can continue.

I am not looking for endorsements from you.
Get lost.

Sehajdhari is the one who becomes a sikh with Sehaj - slowly. That is how I always understood it(even before SGPC came into news for it's definition)

delhiwala you come across as an immensely paranoid and bitter man. Go to any Gurudwara and you will see Punjabi Sikh children running around making noise. But you want to vilify 'Sindhis' and 'Madrassis' it's pathetic. You have a higly paranoid mentality and mindset.

Last week I was in a Gurudwara in NJ and there were these Sindhi family.

their kids did not cover their hair during the Parkash, they were all running around and elders were talking loudly like crazy.

Later on a group of Madrasis from local Temple came(it was very clear that they came for Free Food Langar), they were not interested in the service but disruptive.

when I mentioned the Granthi(Amritdhari) to ask these people to maintain dignity, he said that we dont bother them because of orders from the Manager(Parbhandak), who happens to have strong connections with Congress Party.

These are the people who are ruining Sikhi, and they are the ones who have Kesh.

Pooran Keshdhari Sikhs(strving ones like me too) have to deal with two fronts, one fako Amritdharis and the other with Monas who do not believe in anything about 5Ks.

Sad.

But like Guru Gobind Singh Jee had said...
Panth chaley es jagat mai jab tum hott sahai...



OTOH, Once I was having a long discussion with a Hindu convert to Sikhi in Hyerdabad. He said something about Dasam Granth that I could not forget.

"10th Guru wanted to inspire all Hindus to be the Khalsa, that is why Dasam Granth was meant to inspire Hindus all over the Madar Desh. Hindus who would read Dasam Granth should even more so strive to take Amrit...."

Now RSS/BJP and Akalis do not want that to happen, because they lose their hegegomy.

Dost,

My own undertanding of sikhism as most of the hindus outside punjab has been as follows -A) Happy folks, b)Hard working, c) Can do attitude, d) die hard patriots. This has been succinctly covered by BJ2 in #34.

Within Rajasthan, various rajput families have had one leg on Sikhism and the other on Hinduism. I noticed them to stay with the Hindu fold during the Punjab millitancy and the lack of an outcry by sikh organisations on the murder of thousands of innocents by Bhindranwale thugs. Like most Hindus, I am saddened by those events and feel a wonderful community (sardars) have forever been defined by what Bhindranwale and the Congress did (the aftermath in 1984). Unfortunately as always, the misdeeds of a political party (congress in this case) is construed as the act of Hindus de facto by the minorities. Did you delibrately leave out the martyrdom of bhindranwale from your article? For me at least the sardar spirit and community has been waylaid to a different destination since the support of bhindranwale and a lack of opposition to him by other sikhs.
At the same time I have become a die hard opponent of congress for their mischieves in destroying what had a wonderful potential. Many hindus go overboard in trying to claim that sikhs are part of hindus today as they fear that the congress has driven a schism between them forever. They knew well before that sikhs just like jains are indeed different from hindus and yet comfortable with the majority. The sikhs (rightly so after 1984) feel a severed connection with this comfortable equation and want a delibrate identity. As minority, they being indegineously grown spiritualism felt a natural trust and kinship with the other native paths. That trust has been broken and I'm afraid will be next to impossible to repair.

Adios

DM: Are you in Ottawa or India?
would you be around this week or weekend?

delhiwala:

Jeenday raho :)

I think that there are a number of issues here. First one is who is a Sikh: Here I believe that a person is a sikh if he or she believes that he/she is a sikh. Of course, one assumes certain basic characteristics for doing so and that basic characteristic is a faith in the teachings of the Sikh gurus and SGGS. In practice, however, it generally means born in a "Singh" family, even when the person is an agnostic or an atheist.

The second is a legal issue and pertains only to India. The Sikhs have been accorded a minority status and, therefore, enjoy a degree of control over their educational institutions even when they are supported mostly by state grants. Here, the issue of who is a Sikh to get a priority for the scarce seats in these institutions does come up; it seems that the courts have in deciding against a girl who plucked her eyebrows, decided in favour of strict keshadharis while I would have preferred a broader definition.
The third issue is that of Khalistanis. This is a strictly political issue and many of the non-keshadharis seem to be more enthusiastic about it than keshadharis. This only goes to show that unshorn hair are not the only indicator of a strong political identity.

"If you ever go to the Gurudwaras in Canada Majority of the people wearing Khalistani T-Shirts are those who have cut their hair....why?"

+++++

Those are Hip Hop gangster Sikhs....they don't have the commitment or the guts to follow Gursikh or amritdhari principles and codes so they follow a narrow tribalism with 'cool' t-shirts and badges to make them feel like gang members with a definable ethnic pride badge.....these same guys drink, smoke and deal weed in the real world too. It's amazing you can't see that....people who have gold and diamond encrusted Khada medallions to show their 'Sikh pride' but are too scared to keep kesh because it means they wouldn't be able to have white girlfriends with dastaar....that is the phase those kids are going through delhiwala.....identity crisis and confusion.

DM Sir:
Pairi Penda ha...

I never-ever in my life could say that only Sikhs are Amritdhari-Sikhs, that would be foolish.(needless to say).

Issue here is that when Sehajdhari Sikhs (with strong Political backing) are redefining the Sikhi. such as admission to colleges, Rehat Maryada etc.

If they had it their way they would install Ram, Krishna and Geeta in Harimandir Sahib. In fact this was already done in last century.

Es Sikhi de peechay bahut Khoon dullya hai, te oho khoon kevel tau keval Amritdhariya hi si.
With passive backing of Sehajdhari Sikhs.

If you ever go to the Gurudwaras in Canada Majority of the people wearing Khalistani T-Shirts are those who have cut their hair....why?

"Your are at fault here"

+++++

Get a grip, I don't belittle keshdaris anywhere. I just defended them against the idiotic ranting of laddu.

delhiwala#various:

I was going to respond to your various posts, but then I just read this sentence from you:

"Once again, Non Kesh Dharis do not become bad people, they are all part of Sikh Sangat "

This is really the point I am trying to make if Sangat means the same thing as the Sikh community. I do not question the fact that being a keshadhari requires a greater commitment to the faith than being a Sehjadhari [btw, the meaning of Sehjadhari seems to have undergone a change. In the old days anyone with a faith in the Gurus and GGS was called a Sehjadhari; now one has to have a Singh in one's name to qualify as such]; similarly, partaking of Amrit shows a greater commitment than merely having kesh. But as long as they can all call themselves Sikh without opposition from anyone, it's all good.

I have not denigraded any non-Keshdhari Sikh. Majority of my own family is like that.

In fact I find more posts on Chowk that belittle or ridicule Keshdharis.

Your are at fault here.

delhiwala....you constantly downgrade, belittle and denigrate non keshdari Sikhs.....and then say that Sikhi is not an exclucivist faith.

Ahmadmadani#36:

Madani saheb, could you summarise the point that you are trying to make. As for the Hindu-Sikh marriages are concerned, they do not seem to have created too many problems yet. Here at chowk, Pardesi, Pablo, myself and even delhiwala are all the results of such unions.

Pablo,
you are reaching at incorrect conclusions.

I am not making Sikhi to exclusive at all. Everyone is welcome to be a Sikh. Issue here is when the definition of Sikhi itself is challenged.

BTW, on April 13th, 1699- 80,000 people took Amrit(almost all of the congregation), according to Mughal historians.

Afterwards, Guru Gobind Singh defined "Khalsa Mahima" and clearly defined who is a Khalsa.

Yes, it is very clear and I cannot dispute that he did not say anything about those who had not taken Amrit.

Sikh tradition has always been to not force their ideas on others but rather show to them the right thing by examples.

Much before Harvard has Lead by Example courses, Sikh Gurus were already demonstrating it.

Guru Arjan, Guru Tegh Bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

Except on cyber space, Mona-Sikhs lack courage, devotion to stand for anything this is related to Sikhi.

If there was any Mona Sikh who could take a stand on any matter pertaining to Sikhi please point me.

Once again, Non Kesh Dharis do not become bad people, they are all part of Sikh Sangat but they cannot say that Kesh Dharis are excluvism(crux here).

Salim#35:

Thanks. I think that the "wahabism" is affecting all religions. Among the Hindus, too, Arya Samajis try to think of themselves as the "true" Hindus; however, they have not been very successful.

BJ#34:

That was a touching and correct observation.

Pablo#31:

I am happy to know that my sample is biased and that there are many cases of Hindu-Sikh marriages where the Sikh mother has raised Keshadhari Sikhs.

Delhiwala.....

When Guru Gobind Singh baptised the panj-piare, why didn't he immediately declare that all the thousands of other Sikhs in attendance, were no longer Sikhs, if he didn't accept pluralism and heterodoxy as a defining trait of the Sikh community?

Delhiwala, do you not understand that Sikhs are in danger of losing the heterodoxy that has been a strength of theirs? At the end of the day this is about who can and cannot call themselves a Sikh and if it is only amritdharis then you can autmoatically reduce the Sikh population of the world by 90%.....

Sanatani#various:

It is easy to see the anguish in your posts and a sincere empathy for the Sikh panth. But at the same time, please do realise that the Sikh community has collectively decided that they do not want to be a part of the Hindu parivaar and the Hindus should respect that sentiment. At an individual level, Hindus and Sikhs have been and continue to parts of same extended families.

Sikhs want their own special space. Let them have it.

Issue here is that there is no one on Chowk who has 5Ks(except me) and can talk about Sikhi.

It is like future of the Sikhi(at least on cyber chowk) is decided by those who wants to see things in a certain way.

this reminds me of a line that I cant remember in entirity...

Moorakh naal na loojiye...(probably Guru Angad...)

DM
{This is where you are wrong. Five-Ks are an important part of the earlier Khalsa identity and to many Sikhs it is important that they keep those symbols of their identity. My problem is with the exclusivism, not with keeping one's identity.}

There is no issue with excluvism, Gurudwara has 4 doors and everyone is welcome.

When was the last time you were denied entry into a Gurudwara because you dont have 5Ks? (you probably never had Kesh, I think?)

laddu#various:

We are not dealing here with some merely academic issues but those of a unique and proud identity and the Sikh fears of losing that identity. The kind of arguments that you are making are precisely those which cause the Sikh anxiety about their identity. I suspect that this is the reason why they have more or less disowned Dasam Granth and interpret references to Ram in GGS differently from how Hindus interpret them.

The more Hindus try to "prove" to Sikhs that they are the same, the more they will try to assert their separateness, which is quite natural.

Laddu will freak out when he goes to the Gurudwaras in Canada where he finds that majortity of people who have cut their hair and carry Khalistan slogans and T-shirts with logos.

laddu#15:

"The era of 5-k's is over"

This is where you are wrong. Five-Ks are an important part of the earlier Khalsa identity and to many Sikhs it is important that they keep those symbols of their identity. My problem is with the exclusivism, not with keeping one's identity.

"It is time Sikhism became more spiritual and less of dhakosala like the Gurus wanted."
I find more spiritualism in my local gurudwara than in the Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh.

DM: But I do know of my relative's grand parents who had cut their hair and kept on going to the Gurudwaras, their Grand Children now dont call themselves as Sikhs but as Hindus.

Ask the children or grand children of those Kesh dharis who cut their what are they now? there are thousands of such generations around.

Amitabh Bachan's Nana was a Sikh, does Amitabh Bachan calls himself a Sikh now?

does MM Singh's grand children call themselves as Sikhs too?

Does Sampooran Singh(AKA Gulzar of Bollywood) calls himself a Sikh now a days?

Geeta Bali's kids?

List is endless.


I agree that religion is personal matter and should not be forced. If someone does not want to follow Sikhi with 5Ks, they are free to quit on their own, but why distort what others believe in.

It hurts and feels like an attack on something that I believe in hence this argument.

anil#8:

"I have not met a single Sikh who says he is no longer a Sikh, even though he may have cut hair and shaved."

This is an important point. Once a Sikh, always a Sikh. However, some people in orthodoxy would like to change that and, that in my opinion, is not healthy for the long-term growth of the Sikh community.

Pablo: this guy sounds like an idiot, who is paid to be a mouth piece of some organization.

Sikh soverignity has nothing to do what-so-ever with connections with Hindus.

Sikhs are distinct in their faith(even if it arrived from Hindus).

On one hand he praises Guru Gobind Singh who wrote Dasam Granth and quotes selective passages from it on the other hand he negates what Guru Gobind Singh said about 5Ks.

Is'nt this selective, 10th Guru wrote about Chaubees Avatar I like that but I dont like what he said about 5Ks.

In fact Guru Gobind Singh Jee would be called a Antakwadi/Terrorist by Laddu and majority of Indians.

Actually, he was deemed a Terrorist by then rulers. But end of the day who cares what others percieve of Sikhs.

For DMSir: If today we are sitting and having an argument on Chowk it is simply because Keshdharis exist, if not Sikhi was done with in 1700s.

Look what happened to minas, nanak Panthis, Kabir Panthis etc.

It is the Khalsa who defined what Sikhs are today, this is an undisputed fact, if someone disagrees with that notion he is the biggest fool of all.

Laddu -- your equating of keshdhari with Khalistani is idiotic. That would mean that every keshdari in your reckoning is demonized. And that is stupid to an embarassing degree, as in I am embarassed that you display your naked stupidity like that. Get a grip of yourself.

Now , if you call guru Gobind saheb's Chaubis -Avatar as an ATTACK ON SIKHI then one can only smile at your own shallow understanding of such a great religion!!

To claim distinctness on the basis of Kesh just shows a shallow understanding of sikhi.

Guru Nanka would have never claimed him to be a Sikh as defined by the SGPC and these ex-pat khalistanis.

"The poet asserts that he, having descended from the martial Ksatriyas, cannot think of adopting the attitude of a recluse towards the disturbed conditions of his time."

If Guru Gobind saheb did not draw inspiration from the Avatars of Vishnu then any one who claims a semitic-twist to sikhi needs to be banished forever!!

Chobis Avatar - accounts of twenty-four incarnations of the Vishnu, according to the Hindus, and Brahrnavatar and Rudravtdr, selected because of their warlike character

This is the name given to the seventh Bani in the second holy scriptures of the Sikhs called the Dasam Granth. This text spans from page 643 to page 1343 of the 1478 pages (at the www.gobindsadan.org site) for this holy book of the Sikhs. (Original text is over 1428 pages)

CHAUBIS AVTAR, a collection of twenty four legendary tales of twentyfour incarnations of the god Visnu, forms a part of Bachitra Natak, in Guru Gobind Singh's Dasam Granth. The complete work contains a total of 4,371 verseunits of which 3,356 are accounted for by Ramavtar and Krishnavtar. The shortest is Baudh Avatar comprising three quatrains, and the longest is Krishnavtar, with 2,492 verseunits, mostly quatrains. The introductory thirtyeight chaupais or quatrains refer to the Supreme Being as unborn, invisible but certainly immanent in all objects. Whenever evil predominates, saviours of the humanity or avatars emerge by His hukam, i.e. order, to reestablish righteousness. They fulfil His will and purpose. Kal Purash who creates them ultimately subsumes them all in himself. The poet asserts his monotheistic belief here and while enumerating the avatars discountenances any possibility of their being accepted as the Supreme Being, i.e. Akal Purakh. In the epilogue to one of the episodes in Krishnavtar occurs a statement repudiating the worship of popular deities like Ganesa, Krsna and Visnu (verses 43440). The Supreme Being, called in the Guru's authentic idiom, Mahakal (the Supreme Lord of Time) is acknowledged as the Succourer to whom prayer is made to keep operative the defensive might (tegh) and dispensing of charity (deg). Thus is set forth the basic principle of the Sikh faith amid a long literary exercise. The poet asserts that he, having descended from the martial Ksatriyas, cannot think of adopting the attitude of a recluse towards the disturbed conditions of his time. The greater part of the tales of Ramavtar and Kn'sAnavtar are taken up with battlescenes evoked through many alliterative devices with the clash and clang of arms constantly reproduced. At the close of Krishnavtar, in a kind of postscript, is proclaimed the crusader's creed, which is ever "to remember God, to contemplate holy war; and, unmindful of the destruction of the perishable body, to embark the boat of noble repute."

I am sure Delhi paaji you have not read the Chaubees Avataar by Guru Gobind Singh!!

Your Sikhi is related to the SGPC literature - which is pathetic!!

Re: # 46

wrong Delhi Paji,

Khalsitan is a SEMITIC interpretation of Sikhi and uses the logic of TNT.

The idea of Sikh being soooooooo distinguishible from hindus is the basis of Khalis-thani TNT.

It solely relies upon One-Dog, Last-Prophet, Sunnat-code-of-SGPC agenda and then adds an anti-idolatory hatred of Semitic religions.

A muslim convert to Sikhism is more likely to follow such a formulation- NOT AN ORIGINAL HINDU follower of sikhi!!

I am not going to fall into the trap of this guy called laddu, obviously he is a paid to be on Chowk.

Jab ye gye Vipran ki Reet mai na karoon inki parteet....
- Guru Gobind Singh Jee

Many chapters in Dasam Granth are translations of Purans in verbatim.

BTW, Dasam Granth never was considered book to be worshipped. It is a historic account of land where Guru Gobind Singh lived.

you dont even have to go to Dasam Granth, even SGGSJ has thousands of references to Hindu Gods and also Muslim faith.

Muslims are not claiming Sikhs to be Muslims.

Also, even if let us say Sikhi is tied up to Hindus what has that go to do with Khalistan.

Why are France, Italy, Belgium, Germany separate countries when they all follow same faith and Pope?

Why does many Islamic countries exist even if they have same religion?

Why is Nepal a separate country when it a Hindu nation?

Laddu: your logic is weak.

So, a keshdhari DEFINES Sikhi??

what BS!!!

It is these Dhakosale baaj who are spoiling Sikhi and turning it into some sort of a Sunnat-baji!!

Guru Nanak was against all these dhakosale-baji and rightly considered externalities like yajnopavita as NOT a defining feature of a hindu.

If Guru Nanka was alive today he would REFUSE to call himself a Sikh as defined by SGPC!!!

Once again RSS is at work, this idiot is quoting the lines from Kishan Avatar but the conclusion of the chapter.

Laddu: If you like Guru Gobind Singh Jee so much, why dont you obey what he asked Sikhs to do, i.e. to take Amrit and 5Ks.
Will you do it? you dont have to be a Khalistani.

So, What has Ram and Sita and all those hindu deities to do with Semitic understanding of Sikhism as a one-dog religion??

Here is from Bichitra Nataka-

Founding of Lahore and Kasur:

ਸੀਅ ਸ�ਤ ਬਹ�ਰ ਭ� ਦ�ਇ ਰਾਜਾ ॥ ਰਾਜ ਪਾਟ ਉਨਹੀ ਕਉ ਛਾਜਾ ॥
Then the two sons of Sita (and Rama) became rulers.

ਮੱਦ�ਰ ਦੇਸ �ਸ�ਵਰਜਾ ਬਰੀ ਜਬ ॥ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਕੇ ਜੱਗ ਕੀ� ਤਬ ॥੨੩॥
They married the Madra (Punjabi) princesses and performed various types of yajnas.23.

ਤਹੀ ਤਿਨੇ ਬਾਂਧੇ ਦ�ਇ ਪ�ਰਵਾ ॥ �ਕ ਕਸੂਰ ਦ�ਤੀਯ ਲਹ�ਰਵਾ ॥
There they founded two cities, the one Kasur and the other Lahore.

The descendants of Lava and Kusha become Sodhis

ਜਿਨੈ ਬੇਦ ਪਠਿਓ ਸ� ਬੇਦੀ ਕਹਾ� ॥ ਤਿਨੈ ਧਰਮ ਕੇ ਕਰਮ ਨੀਕੇ ਚਲਾ� ॥
Those who studied the Vedas, called , they absorbed themselves in good acts of righteousness.

ਪਠੇ ਕਾਗਦੰ ਮੱਦ�ਰ ਰਾਜਾ ਸ�ਧਾਰੰ ॥ ਅਪੋ ਆਪ ਮੋ ਬੈਰ ਭਾਵੰ ਬਿਸਾਰੰ ॥੧॥
The Sodhi king of Madra Desha (Punjab) sent letters to them, entreating them to forget the past enmities.1.

ਨ�ਰਿਪੰ ਮ�ਕਲਿਅੰ ਦੂਤ ਸੋ ਕਾਸਿ ਆਯੰ ॥ ਸਬੈ ਬੇਦਿਯੰ ਭੇਦ ਭਾਖੇ ਸ�ਨਾਯੰ ॥
The messengers sent by the king came to Kashi and gave the message to all the Bedis.

ਸਬੈ ਬੇਦ ਪਾਠੀ ਚਲੇ ਮੱਦ�ਰ ਦੇਸੰ ॥ ਪ�ਰਣਾਮੰ ਕੀਯੋ ਆਨ ਕੈ ਕੈ ਨਰੇਸੰ ॥੨ ॥
All the reciters of the Vedas came to Madra Desha and made obeisance to the king.2.

Sacrifice of Guru Teg Bahadur

ਹਰਿਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਪ�ਰਭ ਲੋਕ ਸਿਧਾਰੇ ॥ ਹਰੀਰਾਇ ਤਿਹ ਠਾਂ ਬੈਠਾਰੇ ॥
When Hargobind left for the abode of the Lord, Har rai was seated in his place.

ਹਰੀਕ�ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸ�ਤ ਵ� ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭ� ॥੧੨॥
Har Krishan (the next Guru) was his son; after him, Tegh Bahadur became the Guru.12.

ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ�ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
He protected the forehead mark and sacred thread (of the Hindus) which marked a great event in the kali age.

ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸ� ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
For the sake of saints, he laid down his head without even a sigh.13.

ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸ� ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰ� ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥
For the sake of Dharma, he sacrificed himself. He laid down his head but not his creed.

DMSir,
My last post is not a reflection on you.

But in defence of people like me(not that I need to defend myself on chowk from anyone).

Anything that defines Sikhi, Gurudwara, Kirtan, meditation, langar, sewa, Itihass, you name it....
Comes from Keshdhari, pooran Gursikhs.

When was the last time you heard a modern, Sehajdhari, Nirankari, Mina, RSS-stamped or anything else but pooran Sikh; gave shahadat or sacrifice.

Will any Sehajdhari Sikh come to a Gurudwara at 4am(Amritvela) and do 5 prayers(or that also is questionable now)?

Will any non Pooran Sikh, recite Kirtan and Akhand-Path(or that is also deemed ritual)?

Would they give their heads for a cause that is just and right like Bhati Sati das, Mati Das or Guru Arjan, Tegh Bahadar, Guru Gobind Singh Jee?


Anytime I go to a congregation where there are these so called non-practicing Sikhs(including my own brothers), all I see is social aspect, eat free food, throw in a Dollar in box, look around people, who is who, how influential in social ladder, make friends, talk politics, go to Langar hall and walk away.

GurSikhs(practicing Keshdharis) will clean up the hall, donate money to keep these Gurudwaras running(what inspired an outsider like BJ), wash the floor(if that is ritual replace with vaccum clean).

When there is an issue of Sikhs being targetted at the Airport or anywhere else, it is the Kesh Dharis who go to the Governmental Offices and protest and secure our freedom and rights.

Where are the so called modern Sikhs then, name their works and contributions, besides taking grants from Institutions and Universities and write questionable books mirrored after Western way of life.

It has become a fashion to question anything that looks like an eye-sore(Kesh Dhari Sikh) because that is so not-modern.

ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰ� ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸ�ਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥
ਨ ਡਰੋਂ ਅਰਿ ਸੋ ਜਬ ਜਾਇ ਲਰੋਂ ਨਿਸਚੈ ਕਰਿ ਅਪ�ਨੀ ਜੀਤ ਕਰੋਂ ॥
ਅਰ� ਸਿਖ ਹੋਂ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਮਨ ਕੌ ਇਹ ਲਾਲਚ ਹਉ ਗ�ਨ ਤਉ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥
ਜਬ ਆਵ ਕੀ ਅਉਧ ਨਿਦਾਨ ਬਨੈ ਅਤਿ ਹੀ ਰਨ ਮੈ ਤਬ ਜੂ� ਮਰੋਂ ॥੨੩੧॥ [1]

देह शिवा बर मोहे ईहे, श�भ कर�मन से कभ�ं न टरूं
न डरौं अरि सौं जब जाय लड़ौं, निश�चय कर अपनी जीत करौं,
अर� सिख हों आपने ही मन कौ इह लालच हउ ग�न तउ उचरों,
जब आव की अउध निदान बनै अति ही रन मै तब जू� मरों ॥२३१॥

"Lord! By creating Durga, you have caused destruction of demons. Rama received power from you to kill Ravana with arrows. Krishna received power from you to threw down Kansa by catching his hair. The great sages and gods, even practising great austerities for several ages; do not know your limits."

ਤੈ ਹੀ ਦ�ਰਗਾ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੈ ਦੈਤਾ ਦਾ ਨਾਸ� ਕਰਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲ� ਰਾਮ ਲੈ ਨਾਲ ਬਾਣਾ ਦਹਸਿਰ� ਘਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲ� ਕ�ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸ� ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
ਤੈਥੋਂ ਹੀ ਬਲ� ਕ�ਰਿਸਨ ਲੈ ਕੰਸ� ਕੇਸੀ ਪਕੜਿ ਗਿਰਾਇਆ ॥
ਬਡੇ ਬਡੇ ਮ�ਨਿ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਕਈ ਜ�ਗ ਤਿਨੀ ਤਨ� ਤਾਇਆ ॥
ਕਿਨੀ ਤੇਰਾ ਅੰਤ� ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥

Guru Gobind Singh rightly acknowledges the truth of hindu Gods and Godesses.

Any one who reads Semitic-ideology of idol breaking one-dog religion needs to get his khalistani head checked.

It is sad to see this Tamasha-Thread, coming from all but any practicing Sikh.

Like vultures they attack Sikhi on Internet...wow.

BTW, what this idiot calls "sunnat code from SGPC." was hand-written by Guru Gobind Singh Jee in his own hand writing in many forms.

SGPC merely consolidated it in 1920ies.

paid goons of various affilitations have lots of spare time on internet....

Re: # 25

You are wrong the Akalis were in the forefront of Anti-emergency movement no doubt influenced by the need to balance centre-state relations but their commitment to the anti-emergency cause was exemplary.

1 reason why she hated sikhs esp Akalis was the fact they would not genuflect to her the way the others did.

Aur aaj kal ke sardar dekho like dhakkans singing Singh is King they forget Darbaris are not Kings.

Sanatani

Re: # 12

1. fullfil their mission of crusading against caste system and rituals that has victimized indians for centuries. Rest of india has finally awakened to this and we need to celebrate this and facilitate the process with right attitude and behavior. More on that later.

The way you are putting is like that only the sikhs have fought against wrong practices this is most emphatically not correct historically and today 1 does not see the Sikhs/Khalsa crusading against any social wrong. Where is the Akal Takht/SGPC w.r.t to Bride Burning or Female Foetcide or even cow slaughter. However the SGPC is in the forefront of not allowing a girl to join a Sikh run medical college on the speciuous ground that she plucks her eyeberows.

2. we need numbers for our own physical protection (1984?) as well as protection of the faith. I agree with some folks who say that sikhism can easily go the way of budhism, if we leave to our lazy crazy ritualistic indian society to its own devices. Previous life/next life brain washing has permanently impacted lowest strata of the masses (even if middle and upper class becomes westernized or adopts modern aggressive activist life style, their rate of growth is going to be easily swamped by the growth of those poor with older beliefs).

Boss if you cannot get out of your Jutt/Khatri infighting where will you get the numbers. Please see my previous posts on the Bengalis and SC's wanting to get baptised as Sikhs which met with no encouragement from the Khalsa themselves. 1 more example here after the Moplah riots the Arya Samaj (Yes the arya samaj) primarily of western UP and the west Punajab took the initiative to get 1 son of Hindu families who had more than 1 son to be baptised as Khalsa after around a 100 or so conversions the same stopped as the SGPC was unwilling to have the Adi Granth transalated into Malayalam as a result most of thes guys lapsed back as Hindus except for 3 who stayed Khalsa and the last one died in 1999 and there was an article about him in the Hindu Chennai edition.

Today you have Sikh missionaries trying to get Blacks and whites in America and Europe to convert to the Khalsa but none in Tamil Nad and Orrisa (where it would be much easier).

On numbers and on 1984 you are forgetting that the very same RSS/VHP you deride were in the forefront of protecting Sikhs from Congressi mobs (and please get this right congressi mobs not Hindus ones). If you were actually true to the Guru's injuctions (implied) then the Khalsa as a panth within the larger Hindu Samaj would never have to have any worries about protection. Let me illustarte this in a skightly different way when you revered mother married your father who was then a Hindu would she have to change her name from say Jasbir Kaur to Savitri Bai but if she had married a Muslim or Xtian the same would have to happen and similarly hardly any Hindu would object to getting married via the Anand Karaj but no muslai or isai would agree on the same. Just as being Paki can never be not Indian being Sikh should never come down to not-Hindu.

So i think there is some soul searching to be done by the Khalsa themselves on where do they stand vis-a-vis the Hindu society at large. I most emphaticall reject that we wish to swallow the Sikh panth but at the same time the Sikh attitude towards us when we wish to do Seva in the Gurdwara is patronising to say the least (the behaviour is that it is a Sikhdwara).

Experience 1 thing which a Tamil lady told one of my distant cousins who is Keshdhari if any Indian anywhere in India where he has a language barrier or is a stranger say a Tamil in Assam the 1st person he would ask for help/ directions would be a Sardar as despite all what has happened the Pug and Kesh remain the greatest symbol of Trust in India.

Sanatani

BTW this criticism some true some due to a form of aggrievement is from a person who's eldest son has taken the Khande ka Pahul and who refused marriage offers from some very beautiful Sardarnis as he never wanted his decision made in 1984 as a 16 year old (when the Harmandir was shelled) ever to be thought to have being made under somebody elses guidance/influence

Re: # 30 Mr.Sanatani..... As old fashioned person feel people should marry their own type people.Now tigers and lions look same type people but their religion/way/culture/habits different and they do not marry each other. So opposed to love marriage Tamasha for communal hormony. Now most normal husband and wife quarrel many time and man has to discipline different religion wife can lead tension.If woman beats man what man can do ?
How people married different hindu or Sikh at that time when men or women did not court before ? Or it was kind of like punishment for bad deeds of one family to compensate as done now.
About children what they will take down is difficult say but in north hemisphere all rivers go down , degradation is nature of things. Nature does not allow to pick up good things. We never pick up control and being nice but we pick up liquior and drugs. Like all deshis marrying white people children pick up bad qualities like dark color skin reason is water always goes down and it findest steepest slope to go down. now things are changing landscape is changing and vertical and horizontal integratinon is going on. Now I am for one or step down or up or little horizontal movement but anybody marrying anybody is not good. Can both parties win in marriage or there is always ones loss and ones gain ? Do human hybrid is also good as in plants what science says. Some say you pick up best mother and father its kind of recist remak has any basis or is joke.
People are really strange when they are young. I had friend his name was Sherkhan and when angry he will say remember mai Sher Ka Bachha hay. There was very vulger man in quarrel he asked tell me your mother went to forest or sher came to vist her home. Being timid I just ran away but sher khan was hurt badly. Sorry for such story.

Any do not understand in old days how they married different say hindu and sikh and accepted or most couple ran away and others were afraid of british govt to troubles them specially all punjabis went to military job and were afraid of military court ? To marry hindu was was upgradation or degradation ? ( Like if desi marries white it is upgradation for deshi and downfall for white.)
Good day

{"The process of circumscribing Sikhism with ever tightening boundaries is not yet over. There is sometimes talk of tightening the definition even further to exclude those who have cut their hair or are not baptized as amritdhari. If the talk turns into action, this definition would exclude the overwhelming majority of modern Sikhs from any new definition."}

DM Sahib,
Very informative article and I must say that this mad rush to "standardization" is bound to hurt all religions. The more purity one imposes the more adulterated one's faith becomes.

My exposure to Sikhs has been as friends and neighbors. As a kid, I had no idea of what the Sikh philosophy was or what the “fine points� of that religion were – but still admired Sikhs a lot because of simple reasons: (1) these were hard-working and honest folks and their work ethics was inspiring, (2) their courage was inspiring, (3) their sense of charity and their community altruism was high class, (4) their patriotism was outstanding. In all those areas, they proved themselves through their day-to-day deeds not through any sort of preaching. I firmly believe that if Sirdarji bhais stick with the deeds – they will be fine – no matter where they are. Unfortunately, when fundamentalists like Bhindranwale emerge and start killing innocent civilians (like they did in the early eighties), they are doing evil deeds! Evil deeds hurt everybody but they most hurt the perpetrators and those associated with him/her. Accordingly, I think Bhindranwale did serious damage to the cause of Sikhism. Those who set him up as a martyr are essentially following the same line – with the same end effects. The “purist� sirdarjis have the potential to bring about tremendous damage to the Sikh faith – again, based on THEIR deeds.

Good one, sanatani. Probably there is a need that steps be taken more broadly, just as you took them personally, so confidence is resotored that Hindus don't wish to harm Sikhi in way, shape, or form.

Re: # 26

Please go to any gurudwara and lsiten to the Shabad and Gurbani.

Laddu I pity you you would not know spirituality if it bit you on your backside you would still think it a female of the canine species.

Sanatani

Dost Mittar

My father is Sikh and my mother Hindu and I was raised half-half, well lets say 55% Sikh and 45% Hindu.

I just wanted to comment about Sikh women who marry Hindu men. You mention your experience. I can mention mine and that is that in Sikh - Hindu marriages where the woman is Sikh she does a good job of Sikh-ifying her husband and keeping the Sikh flame alive in her children. This is from my cousins and friends. If anything, having children concentrates the mind and whilst the predominant ethos of these unions is fairly laissez-faire and easy going, they keep Singh and Kaur as basic marker of their childrens faith. Well this is my experience in England, and in mixed marriages generally in my circle of family and friends.

Re: # 25

DM ji.

know of several cases in earlier times when Arya Samajis had no problem marrying off their daughters to Sikhs, knowing fully well that their grandchildren would grow as Sikhs.


That is the jaativaad of all these scoundrels Aryas and Khalsas who glibly talk about monotheism, opposition to rituals and idol worship BUT when it comes to marrying the kids they look for within the CASTE Jutts marry Jutts, Bhappas Bhappas and Ramgarhias Ramgarhias. That way we Sanatan Dharmis are better maybe we should sue these guys or at least take royalty for usage of the books, gods and heroes of the mother religion.

I too recieved many proposals for becoming a Jawhai of the Sikhs (who would never dream of having a Jutt son-in-law) but did not accept as I did not want anyone saying that he baptised his son due to pressure/patronage from in-laws.

Sanatani

"There is a lot of dhakosala and ritualism in the name of "maryada" (the Sunnat code by SGPC) and NO meditativeness and spiritual elevation !!"

++++++

The last time I was at Gurudwara was during akhaand paath of a family and for an hour and a half everyone was in a state of meditative bliss listening to kirtan. I wasn't because I am an agnostic who is easily bored, but your constant insistence in declaring there is no spiritual elevation is pompous and ridiculous --- nobody spends that much time inside a temple unless they are getting spiritual sustenance. The aridity of codes are not going to keep people spiritually alive and attending any Gurudwara.

Re: # 25

I shal share an instance with you. When the Hindus were expleed from Kashmir in 1990 was the time when the Shri Ram Janambhoomi agitation was at just starting. There had been a minor riot in Shri Prayag (Allahabad) regrding the Kashmiris and the Hindu Mahasabha was having a sabha. Late Dr Netra Pal Yadav the convenor got up and gave a speech on the Nihangs and how they had combated fanaticicsm with greater fanaticism and humbled the muslai on their own ground and made a proposal let us give Hindus the Khalsa or death (i.e. make all Hindus Khalsa). Not 1 person objected to it though 1 guy he was a thakur from Fatehpur and had studied in Amritsar said that initially (since no one was clear on the same the Akal Takth should allow neo converts to worship idols). When we took the proposal to our more numerous RSS/VHP cousins they said they did not oppose Hindus embracing Khalsa but any mass movement could backfire against ordinary Sikhs and that since these were troubled times in Punjab 1 should let things settle down there and then bring the same up. What is pertinent is that not even the so called custodians of Hindusim opposed mass conversion of Hindus to the Khalsa.

Later in Kolkatta we had met Dr Keshub Pratap Sen who was a HM gone to Commie and returned back who said this about the Sikhs "in 1947 we wanted to become Sikhs but the Sikhs probably did not want us in 1954 Dr Ambedkar wanted to become Sikh but again these guys did not want it". "Possibly the only way to become Sikh is if te neo-sikhs renounce the right to vote in the SGPC do not disturb the Jat Khatri equation there and once having become Sikhs turn a blind eye to the depradations and bastardity of the so called custodians of the Sikh faith". The tears in his eyes and the passion in his voice when he spoke this really shook us.

Cut 3. I decide to baptise my son as a Khalsa and take him to the gurudwara (no body in my family opposes but some are uneasy though nobody dares say anything openly as my opening line has been "Munde ne baiyan nu soonp reyan"). The granthi behaves strangely he 1st laments how Hindus (mona is the word used) do not give elder sons to the Panth. Then on finding that I have no Khalsa relatives wants to know how the boy will learn Sikh rehat maryada and then on finding that I smike tells me to rethink and come back later. When I tell him that General Dyer was given a Saropa on agreeing to cut back by two sticks a year (this after J Bagh) for the rest of his life he flares and says Hindus (uses the H word) have only liked to insult the Sikhs/Khalsa. A leading industrialist sees the commotion intervenes and my son is baptised as Zorawar Singh, but the experince is surreal and the chasm between the Hindus and Sikhs for all to see. Later the granthi starts becoming a regular visitor to my house and wonder of wonders tells Zorawar to not severe his links with the overall Hindu samaj we are all Hindus to be a Sikh is a privelege.

Sanatani

Pardesi, I have some tiny little ideas that I will put forward to Hindu rightwingers. That's the advantage of being a Hindu rightwinger. One can talk to them :)

Goodnite for now and best regards.

DMji,

I asked a very important question and nobody wven took it up.

Except for sitting in Gurudwara quietly and sleeping to the shabad kirtans - where is the meditativeness in today's sikhi??

There is a lot of dhakosala and ritualism in the name of "maryada" (the Sunnat code by SGPC) and NO meditativeness and spiritual elevation !!

Pardesi:

Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Here is my response:

#12:

"I disagree however with # 9 comment. My father was raised as a punjabi hindu (and hence i have many hindu relatives) and my mom was a pukki sikhani. Not only were we raised as kesadhari sikhs, my father also became kesadhari kattar sikh. It all depends upon how exposed folks are to sikh values and history."

My comments were general. I suspect that your case is perhaps a minority; I have been scratching my head to think of a case similar to yours but couldn't. What I have noticed, however, is that in all such cases, the mother kept her faith and father and children usually go to gurudwaras and observe both Hindu festivals and gurpurbs, but they don't have 'singh' in their name.
I agree with the rest of that comment.

#14:
"Sikhs feel that hindus will not give them credit for their contribution or their values on an instituttional basis (not on an individual basis). examples they cite - how many defence weapons, think tanks, missiles etc. have been named after the bravest of the brave sikh warriors (ranjeet singh, hari singh nalwa, baba deep singh and so many others). The western oriented elite (with a desi mask) that rules knows all about western history and heroes but not much about the fierce sikh struggle for oppressed indians when there was no CNN and fox to cover the brutalities)."

Here, I think that the objections will disappear if the saffronites come to power; I know for sure that Banda Bahadur, Guru Gobind Singh and Hari Singh Nalwa are also the RSS icons.

"3. Arya Samaj is mentioned frequently as an organization that made its mark around 1860-80 after punjab had become "free" from both sikh and muslim rule. And since then, many sikhs believe, they have taken lead in insulting sikh gurus and values and their goal is to bring sikhs back to the pure original religion like budhism was many centuries back."

Yes, Arya Samaj is mentioned frequently. I also happen to believe that the Arya Samaj appealed to precisely to the same sentiments that the Sikh Gurus appealed, namely, against idol worship and rituals; I think that it is more strictly monotheistic than Sikhism. It seems to have influenced some Sikhs also, such as the famous Sardar Dayal Singh, and therefore the Sikhs had a genuine cause of being threatened. But the charge of their ridiculing Sikhs seems to be exaggerated, if true. I have talked to many Arya Samajis and they don't seem to have many prejudices against Sikhs. I know of several cases in earlier times when Arya Samajis had no problem marrying off their daughters to Sikhs, knowing fully well that their grandchildren would grow as Sikhs.

However, the Arya Samajis were probably the staunchest opponent of Punjabi language and have contributed to the estrangement between the two communities.

"4. Sikhs cite punjabi suba and language issues they faced during 1960s and how their center/state power sharing struggle was twisted by Indira to essentially "destroy" them."

Partly true. The Akali party was in the forefront on the centre-state power issue and we should all be thankful to them for the better environment in that respect. But I don't think that they were in the forefront against Emergency. Indeed, Punjab was less affected by the Emergency than Delhi, Haryana and UP. Indira-Zail combination played havoc with the Sikh politics.

Re: # 22 Pablo,

I fully agree. The required thick skin will also help to listen and tolerate what others are saying.

Re: # 21 Eklavya,

On Personal level there is no fear since sikhs have learned to not butt their head with delhi rulers unnecessarily. They are learning to go with the flow. Let country take care of itself as long as citizens can take care of themselves. Before 1984, sikhs were leading opposition to Indira's emergency declaration, center/state issues etc. etc. Now I guess the approach is - Sonia is great, Rahul/Varun/Priyanka are greatest and ofcourse BJP is out of this world :)

Frankly, I dont know what any one can do other than hope that may God give us all enough sense to see right from wrong and ability to learn from history.

Pardesi you left something else out....some Sikhs need to grow a thicker skin and be prepared to be self-critical without declaring anyone who is critical as a 'betrayer' of Sikhism. At the end of the day, no outsider can do more harm to Sikhs than Sikhs can and are doing to themselves!

Can we think of some practical things that Hindus can do to ease Sikhs concerns and fears, as well expressed by Pardesi?

I fully agree with DR saab, DM and Pablo on need for sikh reformation:

1. We must make peace with folks of other castes and their faiths. We were not assigned patent by Guru Gobind Singh jee for all ages to use his name or message the way we interpret it. If there can be so many different kinds of churches and they can coexist in christianity, why can we not learn to respect each other, celebrate what we have in common and tolerate where we differ?

2. Kesadhari vs clean shaven thing must be pure personal decision. No one can tell others what to do. People will need to learn to mind their own business.

3. Education, education, education. Arya Samaj put hindus in front ahead of sikhs (and way ahead of muslims) by their focus on education. We are little late but thank god we are catching up fast.

4. Kirpan age is gone. Ballot needs to be respected in gurudwaras. If our folks do not do that, we might be superman/superwoman individually, but we will get our behinds kicked collectively again and again until we learn it.

Ok, I think that's eneough from me. Hope I did not hurt too much any one's sensitivities.

"In fact they think sikhs will become converted back to lazy caste ridden society"

+++++

Pardesi....it is almost already there!!

laddu

There is nothing inherently 'talibanised' about orthodox observance of dietary and dress codes. Hassidic Jews are not 'Taliban Jews'.

'Talibanised' Sikhs are those who believe that there is only one way to be a Sikh. You don't seem to be able to distinguish between these two realities.

Infact one of the biggest dhakosala is the mechanical matha-tekana before the Granth-saheb and reading it mechanically without meditating upon the meaning behind the shabads.

Re: # 13

doctor saheb,

Sikhi is infact being strangulated by the existing 'rituals' promoted by SGPC and other political committes.

The worst dhakosala of our times has been the assumption that externalities like five K-s can define Sikhism in present modern times.

The era of 5-k's is over and Sikhs only need to dwell deeper into the Shabads of Gurus and bow down to the AKAAL PURUKH who is also Hari, Narayan, Gobind and Shiva.

All this attempt to Talibanize Sikhism into wearing of kesh and following the "Maryada" code that is similar to Islamic-sunnah-code is the result of Communal-Politics within Sikh community.


It is time Sikhism became more spiritual and less of dhakosala like the Gurus wanted.

Continued from #12 - If this is all acceptable to many sikhs, why are they worried about getting mainstreamed?

IMHO -

1. Many sikhs feel that hindu india is too big and will never incorporate values they hold so dear. In fact they think sikhs will become converted back to lazy caste ridden society because ultimately 2% folks have to fit in with the values of the majority for their own survival and prosperity.

2. Sikhs feel that hindus will not give them credit for their contribution or their values on an instituttional basis (not on an individual basis). examples they cite - how many defence weapons, think tanks, missiles etc. have been named after the bravest of the brave sikh warriors (ranjeet singh, hari singh nalwa, baba deep singh and so many others). The western oriented elite (with a desi mask) that rules knows all about western history and heroes but not much about the fierce sikh struggle for oppressed indians when there was no CNN and fox to cover the brutalities).

3. Arya Samaj is mentioned frequently as an organization that made its mark around 1860-80 after punjab had become "free" from both sikh and muslim rule. And since then, many sikhs believe, they have taken lead in insulting sikh gurus and values and their goal is to bring sikhs back to the pure original religion like budhism was many centuries back.

4. Sikhs cite punjabi suba and language issues they faced during 1960s and how their center/state power sharing struggle was twisted by Indira to essentially "destroy" them.

I personally do not know all the details about all these issues and would apprecaite what others think about these rantings. Also, Sikhs are not blameless in most of these areas. More on that stuff in next post :)

from my blog:

Baba Nanak started sikhism to liberate people from ritualism and present day sikhi is being strangulated with new rituals by the same people who call themselves to be followers of baba Nanak. Untill this paradox is resolved, sikhi is doomed.

Re: # 9 DM,

I have many comments and will cover one at a time :).

To start with it's an excellent article. I agree with most of what you have said.

I disagree however with # 9 comment. My father was raised as a punjabi hindu (and hence i have many hindu relatives) and my mom was a pukki sikhani. Not only were we raised as kesadhari sikhs, my father also became kesadhari kattar sikh. It all depends upon how exposed folks are to sikh values and history.

In general, as I have said many times before, sikhs need to expand their base (quanity is very important in this day and age). This is not to rule over the world but to -

1. fullfil their mission of crusading against caste system and rituals that has victimized indians for centuries. Rest of india has finally awakened to this and we need to celebrate this and facilitate the process with right attitude and behavior. More on that later.

2. we need numbers for our own physical protection (1984?) as well as protection of the faith. I agree with some folks who say that sikhism can easily go the way of budhism, if we leave to our lazy crazy ritualistic indian society to its own devices. Previous life/next life brain washing has permanently impacted lowest strata of the masses (even if middle and upper class becomes westernized or adopts modern aggressive activist life style, their rate of growth is going to be easily swamped by the growth of those poor with older beliefs).

If this is all acceptable to many sikhs, why are they worried about getting mainstreamed? Let me put those thoughts in my next post.

By the way, those questions are rhetorical. I already know the answers, and the answers are that hardline Sikhs can't answer them.

Some questions from hardline Sikhs I need to know the answer to.

(1) When Guru Gobind Singh baptised the panj-piare, why didn't he immediately declare that all the thousands of other Sikhs in attendance, were no longer Sikhs, if he didn't accept pluralism and heterodoxy as a defining trait of the Sikh community?

(2) If Sikhs today are taking it upon themselves to do what Guru Gobind Singh himself did not do, and exclude all those non-orthodox Sikhs from the Sikh community, it is incredible to think why people concerned about the Sikh community and their welfare are not alarmed by the attempts to continually exclude people from the fold of Sikhism until all that remains are a small number, maybe 10% of Sikhs today who would qualify under the new rules.

jang#7:

Varun Gandhi is not a sikh because he is a Gandhi. In general,it is also true that children of sikh women married to Hindu men are not Sikhs even when they are married according to Sikh rituals, i.e., Anand Karaj. I personally know of quite a few such cases. But the children of Sikh men married to Hindu wives are generally raised as Sikhs.

Sikhism is a religion that is adopting to changing times and place. I have not met a single Sikh who says he is no longer a Sikh, even though he may have cut hair and shaved. A couple of my friends were part of the initiative to get their kids to promote wearing of turban, but that did not go farther.

I think Sikhism is more of a spritual religion, less ritualistic.

in my personal experience sikhism is increasing, at least by one.

RSS wala told me once that due to absence of threat-perception to the hindoos, RSS membership is on the decline. i wonder if this is relevant to sikhism too. e.g. varun gandhi is no sikh.

delhiwala#5:

I did not expect you to like the thesis of this article, and that's okay. But one cannot rewrite/reinterpret history. The tenth guru did announce the end of the line of Gurus but I do not know if he or any other Guru told their disciples not to worship any other deity. However, this is not the issue that I am raising; the issue is did they ask anyone that doing so would make them an un-sikh?

I consider Sikhi to be a lot stronger than you seem to do; it survived oppression by the Mughals and the vested hindu interests affected by the campaign against rituals; it can certainly survive against any overt or covert attacks by the RSS or their likes.

Why do you say that the Sikh line has ended with MMS or Khushwant Singh? If what you say is correct, it is probably because of the rigid definition which excludes them from being called a Sikh and presents the real long term danger.

On the surface of it; this article does seem neutral without any judgment.

However, when you view an alternative perspective, it does present the picture as if Sikhs have had no definitions and were left in the doldrums, sort of half-Hindu, half-Sikh which could go either way. Fits in the definition of RSS/BJP.

No Panth can survive with these loose definitions and does require firm boundaries.

This revivalism and de-lineation was not given by “Singh Sabhas� or "hard-liners".
Explicit stand around Sikhi and its definitions were clearly given by Sikh Gurus - Guru Arjan, Guru HarGobind and Guru Gobind Singh Jee.

Not worshipping idols, and condemning Hindu way of life was shunned from the start. There are writings of the Gurus around that(not necessarily condemning Hindu Gods but their futility)

During the revival period of post Sikh Sovereignty (Banda Bahadur/Ranjit Singh); Hindu Sects and Arya Samajis and other vocal anti-Sikh people wanted Sikhs to disappear.

Singh Sabhas simply reminded people of old traditions and brought defunct people back to life.

I know that this debate will go on for-ever with no definitive conclusion until::

1) Sikhs disappear from India as an entity, at the present trend it is a very realistic view. For reference look at our most popular Sikh man(lately) MMSingh, his family is the last breed of Sikhi from his tree. Khushwant Singh, another famous Sikh, is the last one in his family free, so is Gopal Singh and the list goes on and on.
All of these Sikhs are the most respected Sikhs in the world and represent to the outsiders what Sikhs are, and their progeny is not Sikh. Hindus love such like Sikhs because they do not protect/assert Sikh values.

2) Alternatively, Sikhs define their own values (afterall Khalsa has been ordained to make Political decisions on their own by its founder). Question to be asked his how will Hindus in India react to Sikhs asserting themselves, will they be viewed as Sovereign within Indian framework or isolated as Khalistanis and destroyed.

Next 20 years or so will be very decisive for Sikhs.

dost,

Truly insightful article. Some of my relatives are Hindus and other Sikhs, and others follow both religions - and this article helps me understand how the two religions are so closely intertwined with each other.

However, reading the first para of your article I got the impression that you are going to talk more about the origins and politics of that incident rather than in general religious terms. Inspite of that, thanks for writing this.

Matloob:

Is this a reaction to the article or a general statement?

Dear Reader:

The footnote [1] in referred to in the body of the article is appears as the italicised note at the bottom, except that it is truncated. The complete footnote is as follows:

“In the introduction to their The Invasion of Religious Boundaries, a
sustained rebuttal of The Construction of Religious Boundaries, Jasbir Singh
Mann, Surinder Singh Sodhi and Gurbakhsh Singh Gill characterised Oberoi’s
work in the following way:
Clumsy distortions, mindless anthropological constructions and
assumptions, producing ignominious forged postures, sacrilegious
statements about mystic Gurus, effectless effort of a bland,
blunted, unattached, constricted, shallow, pathetic Oberoi has
produced a disjointed cynical, conscienceless and unscrupulous
book … to attack the independent Sikh Identity … In writing this
book, he has shown his pathological identification with
Eurocentric paradigms, and has attempted to bring nihilistic
depersonalisation by biting the hands that fed him.21�

Purity of faith when exercised properly means appropriate regard for other's faiths, anything less is impure in entireity.
Those who have faith do not inflict upon believers of other faiths.