Talk English, Walk English

Shoaib,

The point I was making was that there need not be any hypocrisy born out of guilt of using a "foreign" tongue/some warped superiority complex based on our firm belief that anything Indian is better than anything non-, which are the two main objections people have to making English language compulsory in schools, etc.

But I understand what you're saying.

Amazing article!!!...I think this is one issue on which both Pakistanis and indians will agree cox the situation is no different in Pakistan...but at this stage I think the common man can do nothing xcept learn english cox after all he has to put food on the table, doesnt he?

Shoaib,

A good and relevant article.

I wonder if the potential of many intelligent and creative students across the villages in India speaking in different native tongues can be utilised if english is required in higher education. Perhaps it would be better to instruct them in their respective native languages and not instill a fear of lack of english. Most non-english educated people become diffident and cannot pursue further studies despite being good at their subjects.

Adios

Dost Mittar saab,

Choice of English as the official language is a political compromise. Let's not disturb the apple cart.

Fair enough and as I’ve mentioned in #41 I have no issues if English just remains as the official language of the Union Govt. Of India for purely utilitarian reasons as French is to the EU.

My problem is, as burpinder pointed out, that you need to know English to even get a half-decent job in India, a country where only a microscopic minority knows the language and learning the language is a huge investment in time and money that few in the country can afford.

burpinder saab,

Shoaib, the piece is well written and you have every right to your opinion, but face it, refusing to use English on the pretext that it is the language of our former colonial masters is like a Mexican refusing to speak Spanish, for similar reasons.

Fair point; that is why I have not used this as an argument. My problem with English is the elite status that is enjoys and effectively acts as (yet another) massive barrier to social mobility. Who introduced it is not important in this context.

You wouldn't get a half-decent job at the Indian Railways or Steel Authority, let alone TCS and Wipro, if you insisted on using only your native language.

Exactly! Why do I have to know English, a language spoken by barely 8% (1st, 2nd and 3rd language) of Indians to get a “half-decent job� in India? Why are “decent jobs� only open to 8% of Indians? Imagine the uproar in Europe if decent jobs were only open to speakers of German.

Face it, most Indian languages are not contemporary- probably the most technical term in Hindi most students know is "sanganak" (computer). How do you convert broadband? Software? Embedded software? Extraction, transformation, loading? Facebook? Twitter?

Incidentally, a fair number of terms encountered when learning science in English are of Greek or Latin origin.

Technical vocab is a red herring. If need be let us call an atom an atom (Greek). But let’s explain what an atom is in a language that a child will be most receptive too.

Re: # 35 Nkg

Aardu/oordu lyrics are immitated by more Bangalis in the form of Kishore later songs

Sharukh has bangali fans greater than combined of Past Uttam Suchitra Soumitro even in Kolkata

You bangal hate oordu b/c they ousted you from East as refugees
Btw DhanDaulat Inqilab are ooordu derived !

shoaib:

Choice of English as the official language is a political compromise. Let's not disturb the apple cart.

the problem i find learning science in the vernac is that the overzealous torch bearers have ended up with tongue twisters that would need another childhood to learn...

Shoaib, the piece is well written and you have every right to your opinion, but face it, refusing to use English on the pretext that it is the language of our former colonial masters is like a Mexican refusing to speak Spanish, for similar reasons. I don't think anybody is stupid enough to claim that NOT knowing English is better for your prospects, not just internationally but ironically, within India as well. You wouldn't get a half-decent job at the Indian Railways or Steel Authority, let alone TCS and Wipro, if you insisted on using only your native language.

Face it, most Indian languages are not contemporary- probably the most technical term in Hindi most students know is "sanganak" (computer). How do you convert broadband? Software? Embedded software? Extraction, transformation, loading? Facebook? Twitter?

So all this bullshit about English being elitist is just a political ruse that isn't going to fool the masses forever. If everyone learned English in school, at any level, it would do wonders for our prospects as a whole. Failing that, let's adopt Mandarin and beat the Chinese at their own game :)

Before Independence, when people needed to learn English to negotiate with the British, UP and Bihar produced National leaders.

What with Hindi as the only language (show me one UPwallah or Bihari bhaiyya who actually adhered to the 3-language formula by learning Hindi, English and ANY OTHER Indian language) in the BIMARU states, they now produce Lallu Prasad Yadav and Mayawati.

Please continue learning only Hindi.

The South Indians -- with their long work schedule as highly paid code coolies -- need cooks, household cleaners, ayahs, maids, errand runners and watchmen for their households.

All you North Indians who insist on learning only Hindi fill the role admirably.

The unfortunate thing is that these guys install flush toilets in their homes. Otherwise you North Indians would also be employed as shit-carriers in Chennai and Bangalore.

The language issue has been settled with Three Language Formula and nobody has any objection to it. The 3-Languages are English-Hindi-Regional Language.

But I strongly feel that in Hindi Speaking States the 3-Languagues should be English-Hindi-Urdu. As is the present practice, Sanskrit need not be taught to the school children. Sanskrit should be replaced with Urdu. Though nobody has guts to do it.

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You ask a number questions and provide single word yes/no type answers.

Please list out the questions that you require detailed answers to and I’ll do my best to answer them.

In general what will happen to a single language is that it will eventually separate - like Latin did, and Sanskrit has done. Uniformity of language is never possible - for even within say English - the English of the Aussies is pure awful to my ears, as are some of the the other dialects - apart from the usage of specific words, and (your fav term) "neologisms".

Dashda, why are you stuck with the evolution of language? This write-up is about English being (hopefully) replaced by the languages of India and the socio-economic effects of the preponderance of English, not a study in language evolution.

And btw, it’s highly unlikely that neologisms would cause you to like or dislike any dialect of English. You or anybody, for that matter, wouldn’t even know of 99.99% of the neologisms in whatever English you speak much less being aware of the neologisms in another form of English.

Your questions regarding the EU are marginally way off - the EU's official language of transaction is French - with translations to English and German and other inconsequential languages.

Actually, IMO this fact, if anything reinforces my point of us following the EU model. FYI, the Central Govt has two official languages, English and Hindi. Now, if English was just to be used as a utilitarian means of communication between governments (centre and state) much as a you say French is in the EU, I wouldn’t have any problems at all.

Unfortunately, Indians do not treat their official language as just a utilitarian tool as the Europeans do. Throughout India, no matter what your native tongue, you’ll get a huge boost if you can converse in English. No such advantage exists for a French speaker in Europe (other than France, of course).

NKG,

Hindi, in it's current avatar, is more of aardoo/Urdooo than Sanskrit and it does not connect with any other language of India...

This statement makes no sense, really. Most people would consider Urdu and Hindi to be registers of the same language. It’s equivalent to saying Sadhubhasha is more of Chalitbhasha, if you get my drift.


Furthermore, Hindi is not the descendent of Sanskrit, as it lacks treasures (literature) like that of Bengali, Oriya, Marathi, Malaylum, Tamil and Kannada...

Maybe what you’re trying to say is that Bengali uses fewer foreign loan words than Hindi/Urdu which is certainly correct but Sanskrit’s influence is often overestimated, IMO, in the spoken language.

Bengali also does have its fair share of foreign loan words from out west such as Khobor, aeena, bAba, bAchcha etc.

Interesting, Bengali has been heavily influenced by Portuguese perhaps more than English even. Kedara (propah bong word for chair in case all you’ve heard it chear), janla, mej, ata (Custard Apple/Shareefa/Sit Phal) etc are all Bong words whose etymologies can be traced back to Portuguese.

So what’s the alternative? Should Hindi be imposed instead of English? Hardly. In my opinion, no one single language should be imposed. India, for better or for worse, just isn’t a single language country. Maybe we could learn something from the EU. Some people would want the EU to become a federation in the near future. Then would one language be imposed through Europe? Would students of History in Germany be forced to study the history of WW2 in English? I hardly think so. So why impose that burden on India, whose people are many times poorer than those in the EU and, therefore, much less suited to take on the burden of learning a foreign tongue?

You ask a number questions and provide single word yes/no type answers. In general what will happen to a single language is that it will eventually separate - like Latin did, and Sanskrit has done. Uniformity of language is never possible - for even within say English - the English of the Aussies is pure awful to my ears, as are some of the the other dialects - apart from the usage of specific words, and (your fav term) "neologisms".

Your questions regarding the EU are marginally way off - the EU's official language of transaction is French - with translations to English and German and other inconsequential languages.

The usage of language is not dependent on money neither is imposition. It is dependent on the efficiency of communication in order to earn your daily bread.

(let me give you an example - the number of Rich Middle Class Indian and Pakistanis - picking up on the worst forms of culture and language in the US and UK (mainly crap and worthless red-neck stuff) and thinking it is the right stuff is unbelievable. They never seem to emulate the middle classes of these nations - so it is not money, but something else - and it is this something else which many forget in the arguments on languge. Lord Macaulay lives on in this world!)

vengatramanan,

leave out the French and the developed westerners...im talking about the rest of the world...or the 3 world...

I’m glad you recognize that notions of liberty and freedom are not held hostage to a particular language although economic development might have a huge part to play in their development.

vengatramanan,



I’m glad you recognize that notions of liberty and freedom are not held hostage to a particular language although economic development might have a huge part to play in their development.

I have been living in Finland for last year or so, and here most of the youth can speak/understand English, but they don't do it very often. All the signboards, official documents, bills/invoices, course books are in Finnish language. (Sometimes, I feel that it was of no use to learn English). And yet this is the country which gave the world Nokia. So if India & Pakistan really want to progress, then they surely need their masses to be taught in native languages! Similarly in while travelling in Italy, it would be really hard to ask someone the directions as most of the people cannot converse correctly in English. Also learning English also makes you handicapped because then we think that all European languages are same or similar. In my personal experience, the non-English educated people who moved to Finland or non-English speaking countries learnt the local languages far more quickly than the most of the students from South Asia with very good English proficiency!!

Hindi, in it's current avatar, is more of aardoo/Urdooo than Sanskrit and it does not connect with any other language of India...Furthermore, Hindi is not the descendent of Sanskrit, as it lacks treasures (literature) like that of Bengali, Oriya, Marathi, Malaylum, Tamil and Kannada...
People don't respect it...just the cowbeltians are more in number and it will be easier for them to adopt it, it was imposed on us...
English is also a burden to Indian growth story...Higher education should be available in local language...that was Russia and Japan progressed....

Periyar had no pretensions about the life after independence...he was against the Britishers moving out...you know why unpickled?

i mean English pushed the fast forward button on us...and the result would have been the same if any of the Europeans rules us...

it happened to be English and fortunately it has gained over other European languages...

Shoaibji,

leave out the French and the developed westerners...im talking about the rest of the world...or the 3 world...

now do we have had many who talked about liberty and freedom...

Of Course Nehru had not met Modi Joshi Madhok the Indian Taleban

Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru (India's Prime Minsiter 1947-64) in ‘The Discovery of India,’ 1946, p. 218, 225.


“The impact of the invaders from the north-west and of Islam on India had been considerable. It had pointed out and shone up the abuses that had crept into Hindu society - the petrification of caste, untouchability, exclusiveness carried to fantastic lengths. The idea of the brotherhood of Islam and the theoretical equality of its adherents made a powerful appeal especially to those in the Hindu fold who were denied any semblance of equal treatment.�


“...his (Babar’s) account tells us of the cultural poverty that had descended on North India. Partly this was due to Timur's destruction, partly due to the exodus of many learned men and artists and noted craftsmen to the South. But this was due also to the drying up of the creative genius of the Indian people.�

“The coming of Islam and of a considerable number of people from outside with different ways of living and thought affected these beliefs and structure. A foreign conquest, with all its evils, has one advantage: it widens the mental horizon of the people and compels them to look out of their shells. They realize that the world is a much bigger and a more variegated place than they had imagined. So the Afghan conquest had affected India and many changes had taken place. Even more so the Moghals, who were far more cultured and advanced in the ways of living than the Afghans, brought changes to India. In particular, they introduced the refinements for which Iran was famous.�



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Pablo, Indira Gandhi and later Rajiv Gandhi scuttled the importance of regional languages by promoting Kendriya Vidyalayas where the language of importance is Hindi. They had this weird idea that one day Hindi's be spoken as a mother tongue by all Indians.

English of course got to be learnt to proficiency but the problem is that it becomes a state of mind after certain stage. They just dont see it as a vehicle of communication but as a status symbol.

Ek, Yeah I know they look at us from that Pakistani angle.

Khams, India is a subcontinent even now (without Pak and Desh). It's a mini world of races, cultures, languages and religions.

Dammit khammy, you would do anything to get your cry for urdu in, even though you are a punju. :)

Drop it. We don't want it. :)

vrv...
i was speaking in a kaalesque manner...;)
vaise, i am surprised to see the indians insistance on proving india as a monolith with one language, one people, one dharma...etc...makes me feel a lot better about the sad state of pakistan...

Yes, point taken Eklavya. In an ideal world they would do that in all schools, but India is different. But as a general rule, around that age is something to aim for.

"Mother tongue in each region should be the primary language. And then start teaching English from the age of six onwards."

Age of six or just a couple of years after that. Sometimes, schools in India don't have the resources to teach more than one language to six year olds.

"English taking prominence is not the issue but 'replacing' the mother tongues is. As of now we speak 3-4 languages"

+++++

Mother tongue in each region should be the primary language. And then start teaching English from the age of six onwards.

Sorry but I think this is all wrong.

Indians don't have a hangup about English as a colonial language because they've taken ownership of it because it is not an exclusivist language. It is spoken all over the world, it is the global lingua franca, the Irish and Americans already have dispossessed the British of it, and it does enrich you because of the wealth of literature relating to art, science, technology, culture, that it possesses. So you want to throw all of that out of the window just because of some colonial hotch potch of resentments? That's ridiculous.

Also, it has become the link language of India because in the context of fears of various linguistic hegemonies inside India, an Indian from every corner of the land can converse in a neutral tongue that will only become more and more indigenised as time goes by.

Also, English does help those from lower income backgrounds to rise up, cut off that accessory to social mobility (whilst the elite continue to have their children taught in English medium because as we all know what is sauce of the poor goose is not sauce for the rich gander in India) all in the name of cultural authenticity?

No way, Jose. English is here to stay, and rightfully so.

vrv, khammy probably had a very specific issue that Muslims generally have with Hindi and Sanskrit. For some reason, they express an anathema, independent of all other factors.

Probably they feel these languages connect them too much with India?

20, Kham,

There're many languages in India who're on decline thanks to English and Hindi. I think u r not aware of the language issues/politics in India.

Shoaib,

English taking prominence is not the issue but 'replacing' the mother tongues is. As of now we speak 3-4 languages (at least South Indians do) or at least comfortable with.

It's the solution to Indian situation where we switch languages according to the context.

khammy, what you wrote would be generally true. Although there would always be exceptions.

....damn these devious muslims...they would do anything to replace our beloved hindi, the favorite daughter of sanskrit...and the language of bhagwans.

The necessity of a common language imposes itself as English. It is ironic after being ruled by the British for two hundred years, but English works fine.
The problem of out-casting intelligence and wisdom when it appears in a provincial language, and the incapability of the states/regions to make sense of education by delivering it in their local language, is worth urgent attention.
You invoke a thoughtful conversation. Thank you.

Re: # 14 Venkataram swamingal, perivarangal, that Perriyar you have been drinking is pickling your brains!

What sort of an assertion/question is that?

son of Macaulay (T)

vengatramanan,

What kind of output we see in the Indian languages (intellectual)...theres been nothing...

That might be because everybody who's anybody uses only English as medium of serious discourse.

...for example we would not have known what liberty and freedom is but for Pandits in English...

Yup, I'm sure the French are severely handicapped when it comes to "liberty and freedom" because they don't know too much English. Pshaw!

english? i thought "malayalam" will dominate soon as keralites are everywhere, no matter where you go !!! well it's another thing that when they speak english, it sounds like malayalam !!! cause in english I don't think you got a word which requires bubbling your head!!! but this is a common expression among all indians.

you guys gotta get hold of russel peters DVDs, he is a canadian but from indian parents, guy is awesome!!!

on serious note,

Indians do prefer speaking in english, and they have a good accent as well (we are not talking about accent outside india) don't get me wrong here but it's better than us,influence of the british I guess & it kept carrying on & I do not think it's a bad thing at all, it's a global language. take bollywood's entrance into hollywood, the actors have a perfect accent even though they were not born in the west!!!

Look man,wather we like it or not, indians are progressing,whatever good or bad is happening in india, it's not stopping thier progress, and we (pakistanis) need to point ourselves towards the progress & with positive frame of mind only then we will achieve something good.

Peace.

I'd still go for English...What kind of output we see in the Indian languages (intellectual)...theres been nothing...

what percentage of Indians interact with the world...interactions, i mean all, cant be face to face...we need/needed English to understand/know ideas...for example we would not have known what liberty and freedom is but for Pandits in English...

Brian,

Unethical because communication should be for all and not only for an educational or political elite. That is how English is used internationally at the moment.

I think that's pretty much sums up the situation in India too.

Dash,

so you do advocate dynamism and evolution of the language...

Umm...actually, FYI, this article talks about replacing one language (English) with the respective native tongues of the peoples of India, not "dynamism and evolution" of any language.

I hope you get the difference

Re: # 9 so you do advocate dynamism and evolution of the language....as seen necessary for communication of ideas and views.

Concerning the "imperialist" nature of English.

I live in London and if anyone says to me “everyone speaks English� my answer is “Listen and look around you�. If people in London do not speak English then the whole question of a global language is completely open.

The promulgation of English as the world’s “lingua franca� is unethical and linguistically undemocratic. I say this as a native English speaker!

Unethical because communication should be for all and not only for an educational or political elite. That is how English is used internationally at the moment.

Undemocratic because minority languages are under attack worldwide due to the encroachment of majority ethnic languages. Even Mandarin Chinese is attempting to dominate as well. The long-term solution must be found and a non-national language, which places all ethnic languages on an equal footing is long overdue.

An interesting video can be seen at http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_YHALnLV9XU Professor Piron was a former translator with the United Nations

A glimpse of Esperanto can be seen at http://www.lernu.net

Samar,

See para 8.

we should try to shrug off the colonial baggage and treat english like any other language ...

Amen.

shoaib ji, within next 50 odd years most of the people on earth will know english. we should feel lucky that we are early learner for whatsoever reason. we should try to shrug off the colonial baggage and treat english like any other language and provide english education to as many people as possible and as early as possible.

sorry for the multiple posts guys. this submit button was being unduly late :)

English was the language of power in the subcontinent. Anyone who wanted to be upwardly mobile needed it. Add to that the fact that Hindus wanted to rid themselves of persian and Muslims would be damned if they would take on the devnagri scripted sanskritised hindi. So English was the logical choice. Besides the English is a global language argument is not to be taken lightly. We are development wannabes - us Indians and Pakistanis - and we need that tool. Comparing us with Japan and France is a bit too harsh and quite unreasonable.

English was the language of power in the subcontinent. Anyone who wanted to be upwardly mobile needed it. Add to that the fact that Hindus wanted to rid themselves of persian and Muslims would be damned if they would take on the devnagri scripted sanskritised hindi. So English was the logical choice. Besides the English is a global language argument is not to be taken lightly. We are development wannabes - us Indians and Pakistanis - and we need that tool. Comparing us with Japan and France is a bit too harsh and quite unreasonable.

English was the language of power in the subcontinent. Anyone who wanted to be upwardly mobile needed it. Add to that the fact that Hindus wanted to rid themselves of persian and Muslims would be damned if they would take on the devnagri scripted sanskritised hindi. So English was the logical choice. Besides the English is a global language argument is not to be taken lightly. We are development wannabes - us Indians and Pakistanis - and we need that tool. Comparing us with Japan and France is a bit too harsh and quite unreasonable.

English was the language of power in the subcontinent. Anyone who wanted to be upwardly mobile needed it. Add to that the fact that Hindus wanted to rid themselves of persian and Muslims would be damned if they would take on the devnagri scripted sanskritised hindi. So English was the logical choice. Besides the English is a global language argument is not to be taken lightly. We are development wannabes - us Indians and Pakistanis - and we need that tool. Comparing us with Japan and France is a bit too harsh and quite unreasonable.

Samar,

cant we compare learning english as something like improving one's productivity in an industry by introducing better technology, skills, markiting etc etc.

As it is India has had a tough time teaching any sort skills to its citizens. Why burden the people with yet another skill to learn and a redundant one at that?

cant we compare learning english as something like improving one's productivity in an industry by introducing better technology, skills, markiting etc etc. if we do that this english verses vernacular will disappear. both will stay.