A Prescription for the BJP's Revival
Dost Mittar June 24, 2009
#676 Posted by msmills on July 21, 2009 11:15:01 pm
If seeing the BJP as something to be revived, ever, one has not investigated carefully its right-wing or the sources of its ample funding prior to the recent general election. The outcome of the election did remind of the importance of everyday Indians, persons to struggle along who must be offered something better than instructions to hate or fear their neighbours. Those indicted in the Liberhans Report indicate the BJP's level of 'political development' as long as educated persons will Consider BJP candidates Indian democracy is rather threatened.
Pack them off to New Jersey or Chicago for more study of the rise of Hitler, those to bet Everything on a fascist leadup to the election, and LOSING, fairly and squarely.
Pack them off to New Jersey or Chicago for more study of the rise of Hitler, those to bet Everything on a fascist leadup to the election, and LOSING, fairly and squarely.
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#675 Posted by nkg on July 3, 2009 3:49:14 am
DM...
"India shining" slogan was not absolutely wrong either...
During last 4 years, BJP/NDA did a lot in key areas like higher education, rural connectivity, infrastructure development, universal education....
This was message from Vajpayee....
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=22977
Mr. Joshi and Arun Shourie invested a lot on improvement of quality of higher education...
...and it was working fine...
GE,GM,Motorola,Nokia, IBM, HP, Google, Mocrosoft, Dell, Adobe, Yahoo, Intel, AMD,Fiat all set up their labs in Pune and Bangalore...
It was no mean achievement (within span of 5 years)
Recent news is not very encouraging....
http://en.kioskea.net/actualites/india-losing-sheen-as-offshore -r-and-d-hub-10127-actualite.php3
"India shining" slogan was not absolutely wrong either...
During last 4 years, BJP/NDA did a lot in key areas like higher education, rural connectivity, infrastructure development, universal education....
This was message from Vajpayee....
http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=22977
Mr. Joshi and Arun Shourie invested a lot on improvement of quality of higher education...
...and it was working fine...
GE,GM,Motorola,Nokia, IBM, HP, Google, Mocrosoft, Dell, Adobe, Yahoo, Intel, AMD,Fiat all set up their labs in Pune and Bangalore...
It was no mean achievement (within span of 5 years)
Recent news is not very encouraging....
http://en.kioskea.net/actualites/india-losing-sheen-as-offshore -r-and-d-hub-10127-actualite.php3
#674 Posted by tahmed32 on July 3, 2009 3:04:35 am
#673 GF: The simple point I am making is not getting through to you - it is not about personalities. it is about the system.
you think musharraf has a better personality than zardari - for the sake of argument lets say that is true. that is supremely irrelevant. What is relevant is - does one have a nation where the "ruler" (musharraf or zardari) knows that if he breaks the law (e.g. gets an opponent assassinated, takes illegal possession of property) he will be charged, tried and punished. or does one have a nation where the "ruler" knows that if he breaks the law he will simply have gotten what he wanted (gotten rid of an opponent, etc.).
Now that wasnt hard, was it? But there are hundreds of thousands of Pakistani babus, "loyal" retired military officers, petty minded individuals who cant see beyond their "ethnic" loyalties, and so forth - who will go through life never getting it.
you think musharraf has a better personality than zardari - for the sake of argument lets say that is true. that is supremely irrelevant. What is relevant is - does one have a nation where the "ruler" (musharraf or zardari) knows that if he breaks the law (e.g. gets an opponent assassinated, takes illegal possession of property) he will be charged, tried and punished. or does one have a nation where the "ruler" knows that if he breaks the law he will simply have gotten what he wanted (gotten rid of an opponent, etc.).
Now that wasnt hard, was it? But there are hundreds of thousands of Pakistani babus, "loyal" retired military officers, petty minded individuals who cant see beyond their "ethnic" loyalties, and so forth - who will go through life never getting it.
#673 Posted by Goldfinger on July 3, 2009 1:54:29 am
Re: # 639
tahmed...we've talked on this subject before...and as you might remember, I'm personally all for democarcy...but unfortunately what here we are discussing is not democracy, but whether we should let this oligarchy to continue where say an ordinary, illiterate street thug, a wicked feudal lord with a number of wives and sundry mistresses, or an army general could rule over us...it basically boils down to comparing between whichever is the lesser evil...adding fuel to the confusion and malaise, unfortunately the political parties too hardly ever work on the democratic premise either, which are run like fiefdoms of reckless thugs that operate on the tenets of monarchies, where endlessly power keeps running from father to son and so on...so what democarcy are we speaking of?
tahmed...we've talked on this subject before...and as you might remember, I'm personally all for democarcy...but unfortunately what here we are discussing is not democracy, but whether we should let this oligarchy to continue where say an ordinary, illiterate street thug, a wicked feudal lord with a number of wives and sundry mistresses, or an army general could rule over us...it basically boils down to comparing between whichever is the lesser evil...adding fuel to the confusion and malaise, unfortunately the political parties too hardly ever work on the democratic premise either, which are run like fiefdoms of reckless thugs that operate on the tenets of monarchies, where endlessly power keeps running from father to son and so on...so what democarcy are we speaking of?
#672 Posted by nkg on July 3, 2009 12:42:17 am
Re: # 669
KHYBER...
Prividing Asylum is not illegal or uncalled for....
Pakistan provided asylum to large number of Kashmiri terrorists. Have India attacked (even before 1971) Pakistant any time?
Nehru and Indian administration was unprepared for the war and never believed that China can attack India....
That might not have changed the outcome very different...But sudden attack, specialy from China, overwhelmed entire administration....Nehru used to feel China and India are brother in arms and at least History ( apart from Opium war) taught him so....
Here Pakistani and Chinese approach is similar...
During 1965 war, Pakistan expected Kahsmiri people to help Pakistani forces; but that did not happened...
In 1962 too, local people ( Arunachal Pradesh) did not supported PLA....
Regarding democracy in India, it is compliant with Indian society and working well for last 15 years( starting with 1991)...If you have to prove something, you can try, but many countries support and gets inspired by Indian democracy....
Your question was, without education democracy may not be successful. Education does not mean going to school, alone. People gets educated through mass media like radio and tv and in their respective field; they know, what they expect from the govt. and whether the govt. is delivering it. A farmer in Punjab or UP knows ( without formal education), whether Govt. is providing right type of subsidy or loan and whether Govt. proving proper procurement price...They may not be botherred about Iraq war etc...But, that is the way Indian society is working for last 2000/3000 years...
With so much diversity, it is not easy to manage a country like India...I don't feel any other form of Governance may be able to hold the country together....Indians are not martial race ( Gandhi realised that very early), neither we put warlords in highest pedestrian. So, this military dictorship would have been a failure in India. Khsatriyas were treated lower than Brahmins...
Another good aspect of democracy/voting system is, getting feedback on, how the Govt. performing and taking corrective measures...Now a days, many of the popular State Govt.s in India, publish quarterly reports, about the % of promise, they have implemented....
CPI(M) is now feeling the heat of democracy....
So, you need to exclude India from your list of 3rd world countries, where Dictatorship should work as miracle....
KHYBER...
Prividing Asylum is not illegal or uncalled for....
Pakistan provided asylum to large number of Kashmiri terrorists. Have India attacked (even before 1971) Pakistant any time?
Nehru and Indian administration was unprepared for the war and never believed that China can attack India....
That might not have changed the outcome very different...But sudden attack, specialy from China, overwhelmed entire administration....Nehru used to feel China and India are brother in arms and at least History ( apart from Opium war) taught him so....
Here Pakistani and Chinese approach is similar...
During 1965 war, Pakistan expected Kahsmiri people to help Pakistani forces; but that did not happened...
In 1962 too, local people ( Arunachal Pradesh) did not supported PLA....
Regarding democracy in India, it is compliant with Indian society and working well for last 15 years( starting with 1991)...If you have to prove something, you can try, but many countries support and gets inspired by Indian democracy....
Your question was, without education democracy may not be successful. Education does not mean going to school, alone. People gets educated through mass media like radio and tv and in their respective field; they know, what they expect from the govt. and whether the govt. is delivering it. A farmer in Punjab or UP knows ( without formal education), whether Govt. is providing right type of subsidy or loan and whether Govt. proving proper procurement price...They may not be botherred about Iraq war etc...But, that is the way Indian society is working for last 2000/3000 years...
With so much diversity, it is not easy to manage a country like India...I don't feel any other form of Governance may be able to hold the country together....Indians are not martial race ( Gandhi realised that very early), neither we put warlords in highest pedestrian. So, this military dictorship would have been a failure in India. Khsatriyas were treated lower than Brahmins...
Another good aspect of democracy/voting system is, getting feedback on, how the Govt. performing and taking corrective measures...Now a days, many of the popular State Govt.s in India, publish quarterly reports, about the % of promise, they have implemented....
CPI(M) is now feeling the heat of democracy....
So, you need to exclude India from your list of 3rd world countries, where Dictatorship should work as miracle....
#671 Posted by anil on July 2, 2009 4:46:34 pm
Re: # 663
Rashid:
This four pillar approach needs development as Pakistani democracy, much as Iranians developed theirs with the fourth pillar. I am certain that in Pakistani army not all are dyed in wool pro-army wala like Riaz. I think people like Musharraff and several other intellectuals have something say and should be asked.
I think is distrust rather than inclusion among supporters of military rule and democrats in Pakistan. The beauty of democracy is that if democrats take the initiative to include democracy still wins. Once again just look at Iranian democracy. Likewise Pakistani democracy will be created, live in and improved by Pakistanis, not someone like me. I can ask right questions but may not have right answers.
You should write an essay and bring this discussion to the front page again.
Rashid:
This four pillar approach needs development as Pakistani democracy, much as Iranians developed theirs with the fourth pillar. I am certain that in Pakistani army not all are dyed in wool pro-army wala like Riaz. I think people like Musharraff and several other intellectuals have something say and should be asked.
I think is distrust rather than inclusion among supporters of military rule and democrats in Pakistan. The beauty of democracy is that if democrats take the initiative to include democracy still wins. Once again just look at Iranian democracy. Likewise Pakistani democracy will be created, live in and improved by Pakistanis, not someone like me. I can ask right questions but may not have right answers.
You should write an essay and bring this discussion to the front page again.
#670 Posted by dost_mittar on July 2, 2009 4:11:19 pm
KHYBER#669:
I agree with you but not in the way you suggest. I think that Nehru provoked the war with China by issuing orders to the Indian army, while he was in Colombo, to throw out the Chinese intruders. He had totally neglected India's defense and was not aware that Chinese were much better prepared than India. But giving asylum to China was the right ethical decision. And Tibet became China's internal matter also because of Nehru's wrong policies. The British had maintained Tibet as a buffer state between India and China; it was Nehru who, in his eagerness to be friendly towards communist China, agreed to the Chinese suzerainty (not sovereignty) over Tibet. In 1950, the Indian army was much better armed and professional than the rag-tag PLA of China.
I agree with you but not in the way you suggest. I think that Nehru provoked the war with China by issuing orders to the Indian army, while he was in Colombo, to throw out the Chinese intruders. He had totally neglected India's defense and was not aware that Chinese were much better prepared than India. But giving asylum to China was the right ethical decision. And Tibet became China's internal matter also because of Nehru's wrong policies. The British had maintained Tibet as a buffer state between India and China; it was Nehru who, in his eagerness to be friendly towards communist China, agreed to the Chinese suzerainty (not sovereignty) over Tibet. In 1950, the Indian army was much better armed and professional than the rag-tag PLA of China.
#669 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 2:49:53 pm
I think 1962 sino-indian war could have been avoided if India had not intefered in the internal matters of china by providing aslyum to dalai lama. Chinese don't like any open conflicts so they will not initiate any attacks but another nation should be really crazy to attack China .
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#668 Posted by dost_mittar on July 2, 2009 2:35:43 pm
KHYBER#667:
My approach to politics is based on realpolitik. India by itself cannot resolve tensions with its neighbours, including China, unless it is willing to accept their positions. This is especially true in case of China which claims one of India's states in its entirety. India and China have long been engaged in negotiations to resolve these disputes. India has virtually abandoned its claim on the territory it lost to the Chinese during the 1962 border war.
India is in no position to fight a war with China and should do everything possible to not provoke China into one at this time. At the same time, India is at a stage of economic development where it does not have to choose between guns and butter and can go for both, just as China did not sacrifice butter for guns or guns for butter during its development.
India needs fast economic development, better distribution of income, deal with several internal fissures and secure friendly borders, all at the same time. A truly tall order, but not impossible to achieve, with the kind of intelligent leadership it is fortunate to have at the helm right now.
My approach to politics is based on realpolitik. India by itself cannot resolve tensions with its neighbours, including China, unless it is willing to accept their positions. This is especially true in case of China which claims one of India's states in its entirety. India and China have long been engaged in negotiations to resolve these disputes. India has virtually abandoned its claim on the territory it lost to the Chinese during the 1962 border war.
India is in no position to fight a war with China and should do everything possible to not provoke China into one at this time. At the same time, India is at a stage of economic development where it does not have to choose between guns and butter and can go for both, just as China did not sacrifice butter for guns or guns for butter during its development.
India needs fast economic development, better distribution of income, deal with several internal fissures and secure friendly borders, all at the same time. A truly tall order, but not impossible to achieve, with the kind of intelligent leadership it is fortunate to have at the helm right now.
#667 Posted by malikrashid on July 2, 2009 2:10:58 pm
Re: # 664
DM
Thanks for correcting me. I will look into the details.
DM
Thanks for correcting me. I will look into the details.
#666 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 1:55:56 pm
Re: # 665DOST...Thanks for your comment,I was just wondering what you guys think about this situation,I think India should pay more attention to its poverty and other problems instead of getting involved in tensions with neighboring countries,we all know war is no good and if there is war between india and china,I think that will be more worst for India's survival.
Anyway nice article,'' A Prescription for the BJP's Revival ''
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
Anyway nice article,'' A Prescription for the BJP's Revival ''
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#665 Posted by dost_mittar on July 2, 2009 1:12:59 pm
KHYBER#662:
People's Daily is of course an official news source for China and has its own biases. But Indians should, of course, be careful. They are in a huge dilemma. I am sure that they know that they will most likely be routed again by China if there is another confrontation. At the same time, they cannot be seen as rolling over and play dead while China assumes an aggressive posture and concentrates forces on the border of its Arunachal Pradesh of of which is claimed by China. Frankly, I do not know what Indian govt. should or should not do. Indeed, the situation is worse diplomatically for India than in 1962; at that time, China had few friends and had border troubles with all its neighbors including Russia and Burma. Now, unlike India, China has friendly relations with all its neighbours as well as major world powers. The only saving grace for India, I think, is that Chinese do not want to be seen as irresponsible now and upset the world order.
People's Daily is of course an official news source for China and has its own biases. But Indians should, of course, be careful. They are in a huge dilemma. I am sure that they know that they will most likely be routed again by China if there is another confrontation. At the same time, they cannot be seen as rolling over and play dead while China assumes an aggressive posture and concentrates forces on the border of its Arunachal Pradesh of of which is claimed by China. Frankly, I do not know what Indian govt. should or should not do. Indeed, the situation is worse diplomatically for India than in 1962; at that time, China had few friends and had border troubles with all its neighbors including Russia and Burma. Now, unlike India, China has friendly relations with all its neighbours as well as major world powers. The only saving grace for India, I think, is that Chinese do not want to be seen as irresponsible now and upset the world order.
#664 Posted by dost_mittar on July 2, 2009 12:59:43 pm
Re: # 659
Maliksaab:
"I intended to point at some flaws that we accomodate due to political pressure but they inherently negate the basis of a modern state by incorporating a medieval bias."
This is why I said that you do not know about the hindu code. The so called "Hindu" Code Bill, which applies to all but Muslims and Christians in India, was enacted precisely to remove the "medieval biases" in the laws prevailing at that time. Before this code, Hindu could have as many wives as he could afford and want and the widow had no right to remarriage, among many other backward customs. The Hindu Code was used to modernise such laws in 1955. The only sad part is that the leadership of the time chose not to remove similar medieval biases in Muslim code and they continue to be governed by the sharia laws.
Maliksaab:
"I intended to point at some flaws that we accomodate due to political pressure but they inherently negate the basis of a modern state by incorporating a medieval bias."
This is why I said that you do not know about the hindu code. The so called "Hindu" Code Bill, which applies to all but Muslims and Christians in India, was enacted precisely to remove the "medieval biases" in the laws prevailing at that time. Before this code, Hindu could have as many wives as he could afford and want and the widow had no right to remarriage, among many other backward customs. The Hindu Code was used to modernise such laws in 1955. The only sad part is that the leadership of the time chose not to remove similar medieval biases in Muslim code and they continue to be governed by the sharia laws.
#663 Posted by malikrashid on July 2, 2009 12:32:05 pm
Re: # 661
Anil
I would like to know more about this idea. Please do not forget this army has the reputation of owning the state.
Anil
I would like to know more about this idea. Please do not forget this army has the reputation of owning the state.
#662 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 12:28:27 pm
Peopledaily.com
India's unwise military moves
In the last few days, India has dispatched roughly 60,000 troops to its border with China, the scene of enduring territorial disputes between the two countries.
J.J. Singh, the Indian governor of the controversial area, said the move was intended to "meet future security challenges" from China. Meanwhile, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh claimed, despite cooperative India-China relations, his government would make no concessions to China on territorial disputes.
The tough posture Singh's new government has taken may win some applause among India's domestic nationalists. But it is dangerous if it is based on a false anticipation that China will cave in.
India has long held contradictory views on China. Another big Asian country, India is frustrated that China's rise has captured much of the world's attention. Proud of its "advanced political system," India feels superior to China. However, it faces a disappointing domestic situation which is unstable compared with China's.
India likes to brag about its sustainable development, but worries that it is being left behind by China. China is seen in India as both a potential threat and a competitor to surpass.
But India can't actually compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale. India apparently has not yet realized this.
Indian politicians these days seem to think their country would be doing China a huge favor simply by not joining the "ring around China" established by the US and Japan.
India's growing power would have a significant impact on the balance of this quation, which has led India to think that fear and gratitude for its restraint will cause China to defer to it on territorial disputes.
But this is wishful thinking, as China won't make any compromises in its border disputes with India. And while China wishes to coexist peacefully with India, this desire isn't born out of fear.
India's current course can only lead to a rivalry between the two countries. India needs
to consider whether or not it can afford the consequences of a potential confrontation with China. It should also be asking itself why it hasn't forged the stable and friendly relationship with China that China enjoys with many of India's neighbors, like Pakistan, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
Any aggressive moves will certainly not aid the development of good relations with China. India should examine its attitude and preconceptions; it will need to adjust if it hopes to cooperate with China and achieve a mutually beneficial outcome.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
India's unwise military moves
In the last few days, India has dispatched roughly 60,000 troops to its border with China, the scene of enduring territorial disputes between the two countries.
J.J. Singh, the Indian governor of the controversial area, said the move was intended to "meet future security challenges" from China. Meanwhile, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh claimed, despite cooperative India-China relations, his government would make no concessions to China on territorial disputes.
The tough posture Singh's new government has taken may win some applause among India's domestic nationalists. But it is dangerous if it is based on a false anticipation that China will cave in.
India has long held contradictory views on China. Another big Asian country, India is frustrated that China's rise has captured much of the world's attention. Proud of its "advanced political system," India feels superior to China. However, it faces a disappointing domestic situation which is unstable compared with China's.
India likes to brag about its sustainable development, but worries that it is being left behind by China. China is seen in India as both a potential threat and a competitor to surpass.
But India can't actually compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale. India apparently has not yet realized this.
Indian politicians these days seem to think their country would be doing China a huge favor simply by not joining the "ring around China" established by the US and Japan.
India's growing power would have a significant impact on the balance of this quation, which has led India to think that fear and gratitude for its restraint will cause China to defer to it on territorial disputes.
But this is wishful thinking, as China won't make any compromises in its border disputes with India. And while China wishes to coexist peacefully with India, this desire isn't born out of fear.
India's current course can only lead to a rivalry between the two countries. India needs
to consider whether or not it can afford the consequences of a potential confrontation with China. It should also be asking itself why it hasn't forged the stable and friendly relationship with China that China enjoys with many of India's neighbors, like Pakistan, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
Any aggressive moves will certainly not aid the development of good relations with China. India should examine its attitude and preconceptions; it will need to adjust if it hopes to cooperate with China and achieve a mutually beneficial outcome.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#661 Posted by anil on July 2, 2009 12:26:01 pm
Re: # 660
Rashid:
If it is just one of the pillars how can it make the others subservient? I think it can be dealt in the constitution.
Rashid:
If it is just one of the pillars how can it make the others subservient? I think it can be dealt in the constitution.
#660 Posted by malikrashid on July 2, 2009 11:49:17 am
Re: # 657
Anil
The acceptance of Pakistan army as anything but subservient to the civilian rule would amount to no change and a potential reversal to dictatorship will always loom large.
Anil
The acceptance of Pakistan army as anything but subservient to the civilian rule would amount to no change and a potential reversal to dictatorship will always loom large.
#659 Posted by malikrashid on July 2, 2009 11:48:20 am
Re: # 656
DM saheb
I intended to point at some flaws that we accomodate due to political pressure but they inherently negate the basis of a modern state by incorporating a medieval bias.
DM saheb
I intended to point at some flaws that we accomodate due to political pressure but they inherently negate the basis of a modern state by incorporating a medieval bias.
#658 Posted by anil on July 2, 2009 11:20:14 am
Re: # 634
Riaz:
"....Unfortunately, democracy has gained the status of a major western religion whose faithful followers turn a blind eye to all its faults..."
This shows bankruptcy of your vision for the future in Pakistan.
"...The democracy bigots ignore all the negative consequences of how it is practiced..."
This is your myopia, and shows how quickly to descend to name calling.
Riaz:
"....Unfortunately, democracy has gained the status of a major western religion whose faithful followers turn a blind eye to all its faults..."
This shows bankruptcy of your vision for the future in Pakistan.
"...The democracy bigots ignore all the negative consequences of how it is practiced..."
This is your myopia, and shows how quickly to descend to name calling.
#657 Posted by anil on July 2, 2009 11:14:26 am
Re: # 655
Rashid:
I am suggesting four pillars - Executive, Judiciary, Legislative and Armed forces. In case of Iran the fourth pillar is Islam through Khamenei (ayatollah). I am also suggesting that start like this, as it may allow peace and tranquility that is needed for nation building. Please do not forget democracy allows you to change the system, as nation evolves.
This musical chair in Pakistani power struggle is more harmful, no one system has gotten long enough chance to build the nation. All the ingredients to build a nation are there in Pakistan, but fractured nature of the country, and dominant nature of the army, as a combine, are the road block to build the nation. Democracy allows a way, not Army, not religion alone.
Rashid:
I am suggesting four pillars - Executive, Judiciary, Legislative and Armed forces. In case of Iran the fourth pillar is Islam through Khamenei (ayatollah). I am also suggesting that start like this, as it may allow peace and tranquility that is needed for nation building. Please do not forget democracy allows you to change the system, as nation evolves.
This musical chair in Pakistani power struggle is more harmful, no one system has gotten long enough chance to build the nation. All the ingredients to build a nation are there in Pakistan, but fractured nature of the country, and dominant nature of the army, as a combine, are the road block to build the nation. Democracy allows a way, not Army, not religion alone.
#656 Posted by dost_mittar on July 2, 2009 11:12:37 am
Maliksaab:
"These are self-defeating ideas for the growth of democracy like the muslim personal law and the hindu code in India."
You have no idea what hindu code is? Hint: there is little 'hindu' about it.
"These are self-defeating ideas for the growth of democracy like the muslim personal law and the hindu code in India."
You have no idea what hindu code is? Hint: there is little 'hindu' about it.
#655 Posted by malikrashid on July 2, 2009 10:35:33 am
Re: # 621
Anil
You are suggesting army, judiciary and legislature as three institutions of the state. It sounds self-contradictory. I acknowledge your intention of incorporating the army as a pillar of state, within a democratic system. But the example of Iran presents clergy as the final arbiter instead of the people. The role of army in Turkey signifies the importance of holding un-willing citizens and areas within the state. These are self-defeating ideas for the growth of democracy like the muslim personal law and the hindu code in India. Accomodating such faults in the foundation will give rise to a building that will not stand tall.
Respect. Peace.
Anil
You are suggesting army, judiciary and legislature as three institutions of the state. It sounds self-contradictory. I acknowledge your intention of incorporating the army as a pillar of state, within a democratic system. But the example of Iran presents clergy as the final arbiter instead of the people. The role of army in Turkey signifies the importance of holding un-willing citizens and areas within the state. These are self-defeating ideas for the growth of democracy like the muslim personal law and the hindu code in India. Accomodating such faults in the foundation will give rise to a building that will not stand tall.
Respect. Peace.
#654 Posted by RiazHaq on July 2, 2009 8:07:08 am
Re: # 653
The blog you refer to is my blog and I wrote the post you have provided the link for.
I have two blogs:
Haq's Musings: www.riazhaq.com
South Asia Investor Review: southasiainvestor.blogspot.com
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
The blog you refer to is my blog and I wrote the post you have provided the link for.
I have two blogs:
Haq's Musings: www.riazhaq.com
South Asia Investor Review: southasiainvestor.blogspot.com
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#653 Posted by boowhoo on July 2, 2009 7:57:53 am
#5 Posted by boowhoo on July 2, 2009 7:56:42 am
Re: # 4 riaz haq, we all read the blogs you cut and pasted this from
http://southasiainvestor.blogspot.com/2008/07/global-warming-impact-in-south -asia.html
sttop copying without atttribution.
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#4 Posted by RiazHaq on July 2, 2009 7:49:21 am
At 8 feet below sea level, Pakistan's financial capital Karachi shows up on the list of world's mega-cities threatened by global warming. Other South Asian cities likely to come under rising sea water in the next 100 years include Mumbai, Kolkata and Dhaka.
The rapid melting of the glaciers in the Himalayas would also cause floods followed by water scarcity that, coupled with hotter temps, could lead to crop failures and potential famines and wars.
So the global warming issue is important for Pakistan's future. But currently 40% of the Pakistani households have yet to receive electricity, and only 18% of the households that have access to pipeline gas. So Pakistanis have a long way to go in terms of generating sufficient energy for the growing population. But it's important for Pakistan to seriously pursue renewable sources such as wind and solar...especially in view of the fact that Pakistan is an exceptionally sunny country and Pakistan is fortunate to have something many other countries do not, which are high wind speeds near major centers. Near Islamabad, the wind speed is anywhere from 6.2 to 7.4 meters per second (between 13.8 and 16.5 miles per hour). Near Karachi, the range is between 6.2 and 6.9 (between 13.8 and 15.4 miles per hour).
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
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Re: # 4 riaz haq, we all read the blogs you cut and pasted this from
http://southasiainvestor.blogspot.com/2008/07/global-warming-impact-in-south -asia.html
sttop copying without atttribution.
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#4 Posted by RiazHaq on July 2, 2009 7:49:21 am
At 8 feet below sea level, Pakistan's financial capital Karachi shows up on the list of world's mega-cities threatened by global warming. Other South Asian cities likely to come under rising sea water in the next 100 years include Mumbai, Kolkata and Dhaka.
The rapid melting of the glaciers in the Himalayas would also cause floods followed by water scarcity that, coupled with hotter temps, could lead to crop failures and potential famines and wars.
So the global warming issue is important for Pakistan's future. But currently 40% of the Pakistani households have yet to receive electricity, and only 18% of the households that have access to pipeline gas. So Pakistanis have a long way to go in terms of generating sufficient energy for the growing population. But it's important for Pakistan to seriously pursue renewable sources such as wind and solar...especially in view of the fact that Pakistan is an exceptionally sunny country and Pakistan is fortunate to have something many other countries do not, which are high wind speeds near major centers. Near Islamabad, the wind speed is anywhere from 6.2 to 7.4 meters per second (between 13.8 and 16.5 miles per hour). Near Karachi, the range is between 6.2 and 6.9 (between 13.8 and 15.4 miles per hour).
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
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#652 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 2, 2009 7:26:38 am
Re: # 651 are you suggesting that the books were cooked during mush-e-ruff's time!
#651 Posted by RiazHaq on July 2, 2009 7:01:22 am
Re: # 635
Economic growth or decline is never just a coincidence. You can see some nations do very badly in the best of times, while others do well in the worst of times. Economies do not run on auto pilot. Policies and management do matter. Economies have to be actively managed.
Pak economy, in particular, is not globalized. Trade in Pak accounts for only 10% of its GDP, while it is 15% of GDP in India and 25% in China. So the impact of global economic crisis should not have been so huge as to cut growth to one-forth of what it was under Musharraf.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Economic growth or decline is never just a coincidence. You can see some nations do very badly in the best of times, while others do well in the worst of times. Economies do not run on auto pilot. Policies and management do matter. Economies have to be actively managed.
Pak economy, in particular, is not globalized. Trade in Pak accounts for only 10% of its GDP, while it is 15% of GDP in India and 25% in China. So the impact of global economic crisis should not have been so huge as to cut growth to one-forth of what it was under Musharraf.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#650 Posted by tahmed32 on July 2, 2009 6:37:25 am
juror: you need polls to tell you that Musharraf was the dicator who was replaced in 2008 after almost a decade of building up the taliban, not Zia?
It doesnt matter whether you worship the taliban or hate the taliban - their ass is fried anyway. The question is: when will they bring the dogfather of the taliban, musharraf, to court?
It doesnt matter whether you worship the taliban or hate the taliban - their ass is fried anyway. The question is: when will they bring the dogfather of the taliban, musharraf, to court?
#649 Posted by juror on July 2, 2009 5:29:33 am
khyber,these polls are stupid,even American Presidents don't believe in these so called polls.You are talking about Taliban,i was not,i hate taliban too.
#648 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 5:25:48 am
juror,we are not living in denial, these are facts,don't hide your head in sands and think everything is ok,r u goona deny this new poll , Pakistani Public Turns Against Taliban'' by
www.worldpublicopinion.org,i dont know what IMRAN KHAN AND QAZI HUSSAIN will think when they read that , Seventy percent say their sympathies are more with the government than with the Pakistani Taliban in the struggle over Swat. Large majorities express confidence in the government (69%) and the military (72%) to handle the situation. Retrospectively, the public leans (by 45% to 40%) toward thinking the government was right to try to make an agreement in which the Pakistani Taliban would shut down its camps and turn in its heavy weapons in return for a shari'a court system in Swat. But now 67 percent think the Pakistani Taliban violated the agreement when it sent its forces into more areas, and 63 percent think the people of Swat disapprove of the agreement.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
www.worldpublicopinion.org,i dont know what IMRAN KHAN AND QAZI HUSSAIN will think when they read that , Seventy percent say their sympathies are more with the government than with the Pakistani Taliban in the struggle over Swat. Large majorities express confidence in the government (69%) and the military (72%) to handle the situation. Retrospectively, the public leans (by 45% to 40%) toward thinking the government was right to try to make an agreement in which the Pakistani Taliban would shut down its camps and turn in its heavy weapons in return for a shari'a court system in Swat. But now 67 percent think the Pakistani Taliban violated the agreement when it sent its forces into more areas, and 63 percent think the people of Swat disapprove of the agreement.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#647 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 5:09:19 am
Thanks tahmed,hate summer time but thank God no load shedding here...lol
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#645 Posted by tahmed32 on July 2, 2009 5:06:38 am
Khyber: Good morning to you my friend. Hope the week is going well for you so far.
#644 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 5:04:16 am
Re: # 641juror...I agree that It was ZIA,ISI.HAMID GUL,SAUDI ARABIA,CIA,REAGAN,CHARLIE WILSON,who hired criminals like osma bin laden and others to fight against soviets in Afghanistan,but lets not forget that Mushy boy took millions of dollars from Bush but played double game.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#643 Posted by tahmed32 on July 2, 2009 5:03:42 am
#641 Musharraf was the dictator between 2001 and 2008 - the period when these criminals ran into Pakistan after the US sent its troops after the taliban.
De Nial is a river in egypt. Dont fall into it.
De Nial is a river in egypt. Dont fall into it.
#642 Posted by KHYBER on July 2, 2009 5:01:12 am
Re: # 633goldfinger.... ''kha khabara de okra''...Good Morning tahmed.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#641 Posted by juror on July 2, 2009 4:52:54 am
You are wrong by saying that musharraf brought the country to its knees by permitting arab/afghan/central asian criminals to enter Pakistan the results of which are before your eyes.It was ZIA,ISI.HAMID GUL,SAUDI ARABIA,CIA,REAGAN,CHARLIE WILSON,who hired criminals like osma bin laden and others to fight against soviets in Afghanistan.
#639 Posted by tahmed32 on July 2, 2009 4:46:04 am
#633 GF: I am not denying any of these things my friend. Indeed, it is BECAUSE I dont trust any individual in Pakistan (or elsewhere for that matter) to not abuse his office that I call for more democracy, not less. Because democracy means checks and balances, while autocracy (in any form) means unchecked power.
And if you dont believe me, look at the "gul" that musharraf has spread the past ten years - brought the country to its knees by permitting arab/afghan/central asian criminals to enter Pakistan the results of which are before your eyes.
And if you dont believe me, look at the "gul" that musharraf has spread the past ten years - brought the country to its knees by permitting arab/afghan/central asian criminals to enter Pakistan the results of which are before your eyes.
#638 Posted by juror on July 2, 2009 4:34:21 am
LONG LIVE SOCIALISM...IDIOTS ITS SOCIALISM NOT DEMOCRACY WHICH MADE CHINA STRONG.
#637 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 2, 2009 1:47:12 am
Re: # 636 don't mind me - just an observation of the style you have taken upon yourself.
(maybe it was strong - but heck you deserve it)
(maybe it was strong - but heck you deserve it)
#636 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 2, 2009 1:28:13 am
Re: # 634 you the subtext of everything you say is very interesting and extremely racist, supremacist, insulting and patronising.
Your writing so far indicate you think that democracy is not suitable for the masses of Asia, and is something which is sutiable for the whiteman. And this you say living in a democracy and having enjoyed its fruits (for without the US you would be on the streets of pakistan with a begging bowl in your hand). You, Riaz, are a pathetic excuse for intelligence.
akhtoooo!
Your writing so far indicate you think that democracy is not suitable for the masses of Asia, and is something which is sutiable for the whiteman. And this you say living in a democracy and having enjoyed its fruits (for without the US you would be on the streets of pakistan with a begging bowl in your hand). You, Riaz, are a pathetic excuse for intelligence.
akhtoooo!
#635 Posted by majumdar on July 1, 2009 11:55:45 pm
Riaz Haq sahib,
The economic collapse from 2008 onwards was a part of a global slump and has nothign to do with worse management by AAZ vis-a-vis Mush. Pls alse remember that Ayub and Mushy's regimes each fortuitiously coincided with periods of strong economic growth worldwide. And Zia's period also loads of money being reptriated by workers in the Gulf and US dollars for the jihad.
Regards
The economic collapse from 2008 onwards was a part of a global slump and has nothign to do with worse management by AAZ vis-a-vis Mush. Pls alse remember that Ayub and Mushy's regimes each fortuitiously coincided with periods of strong economic growth worldwide. And Zia's period also loads of money being reptriated by workers in the Gulf and US dollars for the jihad.
Regards
#634 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 10:47:40 pm
Re: # 633
GF: Unfortunately, democracy has gained the status of a major western religion whose faithful followers turn a blind eye to all its faults. The democracy bigots ignore all the negative consequences of how it is practiced.
Any crimes committed in the name democracy are completely forgiven. All the worst criticisms are reserved for those who challenge the accepted dogma.
As I said earlier, the fault lines lie between the well-fed middle class sitting higher in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and the poor and hungry stuck at the bottom of the pyramid. While well-fed middle class demand freedom to create chaos on the streets, the poor are simply looking for a piece of bread to survive.
When the so-called civil society in Pakistan launched its uncivil movement and the US sponsored amnesty for Bhutto to bring "democracy" to Pakistan, the poor lost their livelihoods in droves from economic collapse, and their hopes for a decent living were dashed yet again.
Now we have a major economic mess with very low economic growth (slower than the population growth) and the feudals in charge of Pakistani democracy are traveling the world to collect money in the name of the people. How much of it will actually get to solve the problems of the people? Very little, going by Zardari's prior track record.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
GF: Unfortunately, democracy has gained the status of a major western religion whose faithful followers turn a blind eye to all its faults. The democracy bigots ignore all the negative consequences of how it is practiced.
Any crimes committed in the name democracy are completely forgiven. All the worst criticisms are reserved for those who challenge the accepted dogma.
As I said earlier, the fault lines lie between the well-fed middle class sitting higher in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and the poor and hungry stuck at the bottom of the pyramid. While well-fed middle class demand freedom to create chaos on the streets, the poor are simply looking for a piece of bread to survive.
When the so-called civil society in Pakistan launched its uncivil movement and the US sponsored amnesty for Bhutto to bring "democracy" to Pakistan, the poor lost their livelihoods in droves from economic collapse, and their hopes for a decent living were dashed yet again.
Now we have a major economic mess with very low economic growth (slower than the population growth) and the feudals in charge of Pakistani democracy are traveling the world to collect money in the name of the people. How much of it will actually get to solve the problems of the people? Very little, going by Zardari's prior track record.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#633 Posted by Goldfinger on July 1, 2009 10:09:22 pm
Re: # 631
tahmed...are you by any chance denying the horrendous corruption and nepotism that blights our society? Are you denying the fact that our most popular politicians have become the richest of Pakistanis, but not by dint of honest and hard work, but by stealing from public exchequer and emptying government coffers? That instead of being put behind bars and the keys thrown away they are again vying for the topmost spots as the nations most popular leaders? That the system that perpetrates this ridiculousness is the deep seated oligarchy that keeps the majority of our folks stuck in problems upto their nostrils and unable to think about anything else but how to survive...while the looters keep on looting.
tahmed...are you by any chance denying the horrendous corruption and nepotism that blights our society? Are you denying the fact that our most popular politicians have become the richest of Pakistanis, but not by dint of honest and hard work, but by stealing from public exchequer and emptying government coffers? That instead of being put behind bars and the keys thrown away they are again vying for the topmost spots as the nations most popular leaders? That the system that perpetrates this ridiculousness is the deep seated oligarchy that keeps the majority of our folks stuck in problems upto their nostrils and unable to think about anything else but how to survive...while the looters keep on looting.
#632 Posted by alakshyendra on July 1, 2009 9:44:28 pm
#550 by RiazHaq
Here's a 2003 report I was referring to:
Riaz mian, so you're still stuck in 2003? Next you'll pull up some report from 2000 and try to convince people that the WTC still stands intact! A lot has happened in the years since then Riaz mian, so wake up! The whole world (yep, even Pakistan) seems to have moved on but you seem to be going backwards.
Here's a 2003 report I was referring to:
Riaz mian, so you're still stuck in 2003? Next you'll pull up some report from 2000 and try to convince people that the WTC still stands intact! A lot has happened in the years since then Riaz mian, so wake up! The whole world (yep, even Pakistan) seems to have moved on but you seem to be going backwards.
#631 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 8:47:35 pm
GF #629: was your abba jee a fauji? if so, i have news for you. my abba jee was fauji too. and he recruited people through ISSB. and i remember him joking, as well as the pscyologist who interviewed them, that if a boy is good for nothing the army is a great place for him. so,with all due respect, you should try to be smarter than your father and stop talking like a half-brained fauji major about the "bloody corrupt civilians:. you seem too smart to be just another field marshall romair.
#630 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 8:43:35 pm
anil sahib: if pakistani newspapers reported this "failed state index", that merely means pakistani press can report on adverse comments on Pakistan. it doesnt mean that the index is not just a meaningless (do "failed states" stop ticking just like failed machinery???) term based on "indicators" (e.g. in-country refugees) that represent particular situation.
if you wish to get back to Riaz for his pointless "criticism" of India, dont drag the whole pakistani nation in with it. I never feel the need to berate all India just because a burnt pakora or an alephdud rears his head on chowk. this is chowk, place to waste time. not the place for determining the fate of nations.
if you wish to get back to Riaz for his pointless "criticism" of India, dont drag the whole pakistani nation in with it. I never feel the need to berate all India just because a burnt pakora or an alephdud rears his head on chowk. this is chowk, place to waste time. not the place for determining the fate of nations.
#629 Posted by Goldfinger on July 1, 2009 8:41:54 pm
Re: # 616
anil,
while your views about democracy could be commendable under ideal circumstances...however consider as to what would this system of oligarchy be called that offers the choices of illiterate thieves, thugs and murderers and looters of public exchequer, to be presented to the populace again and again to select from...and when selected these so-called democratically elected leaders perpetrate the worst dictatorship under the garb of sham democracy, perpetuate atrocities and misrule...and get richer in the process...when removed from power in the musical chairs they play...another of their mates jumps on the bandwagon to have his fun...in this process the poor are left poorer, more illiterate and unenlightened, and unable to think about anything else but how to survive in this ugly and inimical world...what good is such a democracy? obviously on paper democracy looks very nice, but after all what is important is to see the lot of the majority to be better developed, educated their health care etc...otherwise just to put a label on something and call it democracy just to look good will not do...democracy can only start to work when all those self serving thugs who pass off as great popular leaders are forever shunned from participating in elections, and the populace are enlightened enough to know what is right and what is wrong.
anil,
while your views about democracy could be commendable under ideal circumstances...however consider as to what would this system of oligarchy be called that offers the choices of illiterate thieves, thugs and murderers and looters of public exchequer, to be presented to the populace again and again to select from...and when selected these so-called democratically elected leaders perpetrate the worst dictatorship under the garb of sham democracy, perpetuate atrocities and misrule...and get richer in the process...when removed from power in the musical chairs they play...another of their mates jumps on the bandwagon to have his fun...in this process the poor are left poorer, more illiterate and unenlightened, and unable to think about anything else but how to survive in this ugly and inimical world...what good is such a democracy? obviously on paper democracy looks very nice, but after all what is important is to see the lot of the majority to be better developed, educated their health care etc...otherwise just to put a label on something and call it democracy just to look good will not do...democracy can only start to work when all those self serving thugs who pass off as great popular leaders are forever shunned from participating in elections, and the populace are enlightened enough to know what is right and what is wrong.
#628 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 8:38:37 pm
#627 burnt pakoray: did you wash your face this morning? your post smells of burnt oil.
#627 Posted by laddu on July 1, 2009 8:36:10 pm
Actually the Paki Army band baja and money launderers in the silicon valley can only but churn out propaganda to eulogize and support that haramkhor army!!
They would go to any extent to support the zina-ul-haq's regime of army-mullah peddling hallal stuff to the ordinary awaam while indulging in all sorts of corruption and money launderying out of kickbacks.
I would like to see the army and their bhaands in the prison for all their nefarious and corrupt deals done in the past 10 years of musharaff's rule!!
They would go to any extent to support the zina-ul-haq's regime of army-mullah peddling hallal stuff to the ordinary awaam while indulging in all sorts of corruption and money launderying out of kickbacks.
I would like to see the army and their bhaands in the prison for all their nefarious and corrupt deals done in the past 10 years of musharaff's rule!!
#626 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 8:25:37 pm
shankar: Riaz sahib is acting less like Limbaugh (who is not comparable, given his far wider audience, and also I am sure Riaz sahib doesnt do drugs), and more like one of countless Indians on chowk whose sole presence is defined by a need to ridicule Pakistanis.
I have of course tried to advise Riaz sahib not to become a Pakistani arjun or a Pakistani jay thakeray or some other kind of Indian lowlife that has infested chowk, but he doesnt listen!!
I suggest you just treat im the way I treat rats from your side of the border.
cheers.
I have of course tried to advise Riaz sahib not to become a Pakistani arjun or a Pakistani jay thakeray or some other kind of Indian lowlife that has infested chowk, but he doesnt listen!!
I suggest you just treat im the way I treat rats from your side of the border.
cheers.
#625 Posted by nemesis3 on July 1, 2009 8:19:55 pm
#537 Posted by shankar
"The Indian leadership should try a little harder to improve relations with China"
Yes. It was wrong to have spoiled the relations with China. It was Nehru's folly. China promoted Pak only to spite India.
#624 Posted by nemesis3 on July 1, 2009 8:15:26 pm
#536 Posted by KHYBER
"I hope india and pakistan work sincerely to prevent these barbarian acts both in india and pakistan,but unfortunately there are reports that indian RAW is supporting Taliban."
Steps in this direction has already been initiated by Pakistan. They have refused to hand over the named criminals to India. Also they have helped the Paki court to release the most wanted terrorist.
Cooperation my foot!
"I hope india and pakistan work sincerely to prevent these barbarian acts both in india and pakistan,but unfortunately there are reports that indian RAW is supporting Taliban."
Steps in this direction has already been initiated by Pakistan. They have refused to hand over the named criminals to India. Also they have helped the Paki court to release the most wanted terrorist.
Cooperation my foot!
#623 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 7:10:42 pm
Re: # 620
I know I am talking about China's PLA as an example for Pak Army.
Like PLA, Pak Army also operates a range of civilian businesses professionally and profitably that results in significant taxes to the treasury.
The next step for Pak Army is to use their cooperation and friendship with PAL's retired officer corp who brought in the capital to run PLA-connected private businesses to contribute more to the nation than they take from the people, as PLA did.
This is not as big a leap as you imagine, if Pak govt cuts their military funding and lets them loose to bring in capital and do civilian business with the world.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I know I am talking about China's PLA as an example for Pak Army.
Like PLA, Pak Army also operates a range of civilian businesses professionally and profitably that results in significant taxes to the treasury.
The next step for Pak Army is to use their cooperation and friendship with PAL's retired officer corp who brought in the capital to run PLA-connected private businesses to contribute more to the nation than they take from the people, as PLA did.
This is not as big a leap as you imagine, if Pak govt cuts their military funding and lets them loose to bring in capital and do civilian business with the world.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#622 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 6:41:50 pm
Re: # 618
Khybar:
"... in countries where leaders like Iran can tell EU to quit nuclear discussions,those leaders are not from feudal class,they are not corrupt either..."
You are pointing to the correct problem, but to the wrong solution. Democracy is like "Rung laati hai hina pathar pe ghis jaane ke baad".
It will being the leaders out if they will have opportunity. Iran, and yes India in its own way are examples among several. Please do not miss my point, allow, support, create, live and improve democracy. This form of government allows citizens to do that. Military dictatorship does not.
Create Pakistani democracy.... Yes you can.
Khybar:
"... in countries where leaders like Iran can tell EU to quit nuclear discussions,those leaders are not from feudal class,they are not corrupt either..."
You are pointing to the correct problem, but to the wrong solution. Democracy is like "Rung laati hai hina pathar pe ghis jaane ke baad".
It will being the leaders out if they will have opportunity. Iran, and yes India in its own way are examples among several. Please do not miss my point, allow, support, create, live and improve democracy. This form of government allows citizens to do that. Military dictatorship does not.
Create Pakistani democracy.... Yes you can.
#621 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 6:34:32 pm
Re: # 618
Khybar:
"'' . Democracy is freedom to choose, and education is a fundamental right'' thats true but in majority of 3 rd world countries fundamental rights of citizens are denied even if there is democracy in those countries,thats why I am reapeating that '' Education is necessary for democracy ''"
There are many things that are denied in Islam but you do not give it up. Why, because it is your religion. The same applies for Pakistani democracy, you do not give it. Why, because it is your democracy. Riaz looks at America and says that is the only democracy. He looks at rail road track in Mumbai and say this not the democracy we want.
This is all balony according to me. Pakistan is capabale of having ITS very own democracy, Not Indian, Not American, just as Iranian have their democracy. You must support it. For all I care in Pakistani democracy there may be one more institution to deal with, which is army, and not just executive, judiciary and legislative. So be it.
After all Iranian democracy has added one more institution of their own - the Islam.
Putting down democracy on education or other flimsy grounds, all I can say is "uneducated" Pakistani awam voted better than Riaz & co. Riaz & Co. still lives in "Not India". They are old, their slogan has lost relevance, they have no new vision no new dream for young Pakistan. They are a failed generation and for now Riaz & Co. is bankrupt of ideas to bring a change in Pakistan. They want to bring Army back, why because India will destroy Pakistan. A very sad affair.
Khybar:
"'' . Democracy is freedom to choose, and education is a fundamental right'' thats true but in majority of 3 rd world countries fundamental rights of citizens are denied even if there is democracy in those countries,thats why I am reapeating that '' Education is necessary for democracy ''"
There are many things that are denied in Islam but you do not give it up. Why, because it is your religion. The same applies for Pakistani democracy, you do not give it. Why, because it is your democracy. Riaz looks at America and says that is the only democracy. He looks at rail road track in Mumbai and say this not the democracy we want.
This is all balony according to me. Pakistan is capabale of having ITS very own democracy, Not Indian, Not American, just as Iranian have their democracy. You must support it. For all I care in Pakistani democracy there may be one more institution to deal with, which is army, and not just executive, judiciary and legislative. So be it.
After all Iranian democracy has added one more institution of their own - the Islam.
Putting down democracy on education or other flimsy grounds, all I can say is "uneducated" Pakistani awam voted better than Riaz & co. Riaz & Co. still lives in "Not India". They are old, their slogan has lost relevance, they have no new vision no new dream for young Pakistan. They are a failed generation and for now Riaz & Co. is bankrupt of ideas to bring a change in Pakistan. They want to bring Army back, why because India will destroy Pakistan. A very sad affair.
#620 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 6:25:10 pm
Riaz:
You are talking of Cheen and I am talking of Pakistan.. Please quit and understand the Pakistani cards and play with them.
You are talking of Cheen and I am talking of Pakistan.. Please quit and understand the Pakistani cards and play with them.
#619 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 6:00:27 pm
Re: # 616
The PLA's budget was cut by Deng who then allowed the PLA to pursue profitable ventures and export opportunities to fund itself. Later, when PLA achieved signicant industrial growth targets generating lots of foreign exchange and tax revenues, Deng forced spin-off to private sector.
So the PLA contributed far more than it sucked in from taxpayers.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
The PLA's budget was cut by Deng who then allowed the PLA to pursue profitable ventures and export opportunities to fund itself. Later, when PLA achieved signicant industrial growth targets generating lots of foreign exchange and tax revenues, Deng forced spin-off to private sector.
So the PLA contributed far more than it sucked in from taxpayers.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#618 Posted by KHYBER on July 1, 2009 5:56:22 pm
Re: # 615anil...I am not against democracy,what I am trying to say is that in 3rd world countries reforms in education are needed and education should be aggressively spread in 3rd world countries so people can elect strong and honest leaders.
'' . Democracy is freedom to choose, and education is a fundamental right'' thats true but in majority of 3 rd world countries fundamental rights of citizens are denied even if there is democracy in those countries,thats why I am reapeating that '' Education is necessary for democracy ''
secondly in countries where leaders like Iran can tell EU to quit nuclear discussions,those leaders are not from feudal class,they are not corrupt either,thats where I stress that people must be educated so they don't have to vote for corrupt leaders or those who use religion for their political interests.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
'' . Democracy is freedom to choose, and education is a fundamental right'' thats true but in majority of 3 rd world countries fundamental rights of citizens are denied even if there is democracy in those countries,thats why I am reapeating that '' Education is necessary for democracy ''
secondly in countries where leaders like Iran can tell EU to quit nuclear discussions,those leaders are not from feudal class,they are not corrupt either,thats where I stress that people must be educated so they don't have to vote for corrupt leaders or those who use religion for their political interests.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#617 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 5:50:35 pm
Re: # 614
Khyber,
More than education, the voters need a degree of autonomy and independence to vote freely.
Unfortunately, it is not possible when you are depedent on the goodwill of the feudal lord whose land the poor voters live on.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Khyber,
More than education, the voters need a degree of autonomy and independence to vote freely.
Unfortunately, it is not possible when you are depedent on the goodwill of the feudal lord whose land the poor voters live on.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#616 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 5:40:25 pm
Regarding Education. I believe anyone who lives and has a family, want their kids to do better than themselves. A chabriwala also knows that education is the key to improve, that is why it is a right. If chabriwala is given means then he will ensure his kids get education. Afterall parents were sending their kids to Lal Masjid hoping it would be better for their kid.
Education is the right that communities should take initiative and control. In many sense that is the case in the U.S. where upto secondary education is not Federal, not State but local government matter. Local government is more like community doing it themselves. They pay local taxes to run local schools. This system has problems, where communities do not have income to pay taxes then what. But this is a good problem to have, and many try to find solutions with the help of community / corporate sponsors, state and federal support. At all time the initiative is with the community.
Therefore, I do not see education being a pre-requisite to democracy. Democracy as precursor to education so that communities are empowered to manage education. The voting by Pakistani awam destroys Riaz's dictum that without education people cannot govern themselves and hence military is needed.
He forgets, that even in the military jawans are from the poors. Generals have the power. This structure sucks about 35% of Pakistan's annual budget for 1 million strong. The rest 159 million have 65%.
He forgets if such a privileged class is created, even civilians will deliver better results.
His war drums on democracy are all humbug. Dream on and dream big, you are the destiny. Riaz is a failed generation.
Education is the right that communities should take initiative and control. In many sense that is the case in the U.S. where upto secondary education is not Federal, not State but local government matter. Local government is more like community doing it themselves. They pay local taxes to run local schools. This system has problems, where communities do not have income to pay taxes then what. But this is a good problem to have, and many try to find solutions with the help of community / corporate sponsors, state and federal support. At all time the initiative is with the community.
Therefore, I do not see education being a pre-requisite to democracy. Democracy as precursor to education so that communities are empowered to manage education. The voting by Pakistani awam destroys Riaz's dictum that without education people cannot govern themselves and hence military is needed.
He forgets, that even in the military jawans are from the poors. Generals have the power. This structure sucks about 35% of Pakistan's annual budget for 1 million strong. The rest 159 million have 65%.
He forgets if such a privileged class is created, even civilians will deliver better results.
His war drums on democracy are all humbug. Dream on and dream big, you are the destiny. Riaz is a failed generation.
#615 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 5:28:38 pm
Khybar:
What comes first? Education or democracy. Democracy is freedom to choose, and education is a fundamental right, that is why I even supported education at Lal Masjid.
History is a witness in Pakistan too, that Pakistani awam in the most recent election made a right choice. They were given limited choice of leaders to choose from. This weakness can only be overcome if democratic institutions are allowed to build and let others grow into leadership within.
I know, Riaz does not like me giving Indian example therefore, I will not give the example of BJP routing in recent elections there. Instead I will say look at Iran. Ahmadnejad won, some felt cheated. 10% of votes were recounted to results were confirmed and Ahmadnehjad's election was certified. Mousavi's statement was let the peacful struggle continue. Of course it must and it would till next election. That is the time to go for a change. This is democratic. Iranian mullahs behaved better than the U.S. Supreme Court, who denied Gore's petition for a limited recount. In both cases results were accepted and people moved on.
Today's news, Iran told EU to quit nuclear discussions. Why could they do it, and Saudis or Pakistani Generals are not able to do it? The answer is in democracy. Institutions feel empowered to stand up.
What comes first? Education or democracy. Democracy is freedom to choose, and education is a fundamental right, that is why I even supported education at Lal Masjid.
History is a witness in Pakistan too, that Pakistani awam in the most recent election made a right choice. They were given limited choice of leaders to choose from. This weakness can only be overcome if democratic institutions are allowed to build and let others grow into leadership within.
I know, Riaz does not like me giving Indian example therefore, I will not give the example of BJP routing in recent elections there. Instead I will say look at Iran. Ahmadnejad won, some felt cheated. 10% of votes were recounted to results were confirmed and Ahmadnehjad's election was certified. Mousavi's statement was let the peacful struggle continue. Of course it must and it would till next election. That is the time to go for a change. This is democratic. Iranian mullahs behaved better than the U.S. Supreme Court, who denied Gore's petition for a limited recount. In both cases results were accepted and people moved on.
Today's news, Iran told EU to quit nuclear discussions. Why could they do it, and Saudis or Pakistani Generals are not able to do it? The answer is in democracy. Institutions feel empowered to stand up.
#614 Posted by KHYBER on July 1, 2009 5:08:58 pm
Re: # 613anil... yes,its true that , ''Democracy requires faith and belief and time to build institutions for the people, by the people, and of the people. It gives a voice, a hope to those who may have nothing else.''
Education is necessary for democracy,Democracy can only grow and develop when people are well educated and aware of their rights and duties. Education is a vast subject, so I can't get too much into it here but education enhances one's ability to get better work and become an informed citizen, which is important in a democracy and for peace. If people are left uneducated, they won't know too much about a possible better life. I don't see how a democracy can function adequately unless the general population has at least the ability to read to know what is going on in the government so that they can choose leaders intelligently. If the people are uneducated in the democracy, then the minority of educated people will pass laws and elect officials who promote their interest rather than interests of the general population.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
Education is necessary for democracy,Democracy can only grow and develop when people are well educated and aware of their rights and duties. Education is a vast subject, so I can't get too much into it here but education enhances one's ability to get better work and become an informed citizen, which is important in a democracy and for peace. If people are left uneducated, they won't know too much about a possible better life. I don't see how a democracy can function adequately unless the general population has at least the ability to read to know what is going on in the government so that they can choose leaders intelligently. If the people are uneducated in the democracy, then the minority of educated people will pass laws and elect officials who promote their interest rather than interests of the general population.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#613 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 4:54:31 pm
Re: # 611
Khybar:
"... Democracy requires educated citizens or voters..."
Democracy requires faith and belief and time to build institutions for the people, by the people, and of the people. It gives a voice, a hope to those who may have nothing else. It is not a panacea. Riaz's micro (build roads etc. etc.) and macro detours are nonsensical. He thinks he can dance through it, and that his dance is better than peacock's dance in the rainy season.
Khybar:
"... Democracy requires educated citizens or voters..."
Democracy requires faith and belief and time to build institutions for the people, by the people, and of the people. It gives a voice, a hope to those who may have nothing else. It is not a panacea. Riaz's micro (build roads etc. etc.) and macro detours are nonsensical. He thinks he can dance through it, and that his dance is better than peacock's dance in the rainy season.
#612 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 4:49:56 pm
Re: # 606
Riaz:
"...As to Pak military, I think you are simply repeating all of the allegations that are motivated by a desire to weaken Pakistan ..."
This is your lame rant to fool Pakistani awam. If their vote is counted your rant will remain a rant. Even Modis, and Thackreys know that they cannot afford to, and they must not fight Pakistan. Cost of winning, let alone cost losing is too high.
Why don't you know it?
Is it because you do not want to know it?
Riaz:
"...As to Pak military, I think you are simply repeating all of the allegations that are motivated by a desire to weaken Pakistan ..."
This is your lame rant to fool Pakistani awam. If their vote is counted your rant will remain a rant. Even Modis, and Thackreys know that they cannot afford to, and they must not fight Pakistan. Cost of winning, let alone cost losing is too high.
Why don't you know it?
Is it because you do not want to know it?
#611 Posted by KHYBER on July 1, 2009 4:47:42 pm
Re: # 606RiazHaq.....,'' Whenever Pak army is given a task, whether building weapon systems, roads, ports, disaster recovery, running schools or hospitals, or defending Pakistan's borders, they do a much better job than other institutions in Pakistan.'' I do agree on this point,Democracy requires educated citizens or voters,unfortunately in Pakistan our rate of literacy is less then 60%,if I agree with you that army general would be better then an elcted PM,it will work only if such a general is honest and don't embed with feudal corrupt politicians like Gen Mush did,out of four military Pharaohs ,GEN MUSH was welcomed by liberals,progressive minded people in pakistan but he screwed up by shaking hands with corrupt politicians like choudry brothers etc.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#610 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 4:45:14 pm
Re: # 605
Tahmed sahib:
"... why this preoccupation with labelling pakistan as a "failed state"? ..."
I have not labeled this. This is what was quoted in Pakistani newspapers, and that is where I read it.
As far as I am concerned, I have always looked forward not backward. These indicators or labels do not say anything about the ability of Pakistani awam. As you know I have maintained that they voted in the fair election. They want a dream, they want to live and work to improve their life, like any other human being on this Earth.
This is the message and my bone with Riaz. He is the one who loves quoting such statistics. I merely pointed for Khybar to break from the past and have a dream and dream big. This is more important. Pakistan can do it, Twenty20 world cup is a recent example. Success of Pakistani entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley whom I know speaks no less than it speaks for Indian or Chinese entrepreneurs.
Tahmed sahib:
"... why this preoccupation with labelling pakistan as a "failed state"? ..."
I have not labeled this. This is what was quoted in Pakistani newspapers, and that is where I read it.
As far as I am concerned, I have always looked forward not backward. These indicators or labels do not say anything about the ability of Pakistani awam. As you know I have maintained that they voted in the fair election. They want a dream, they want to live and work to improve their life, like any other human being on this Earth.
This is the message and my bone with Riaz. He is the one who loves quoting such statistics. I merely pointed for Khybar to break from the past and have a dream and dream big. This is more important. Pakistan can do it, Twenty20 world cup is a recent example. Success of Pakistani entrepreneurs in Silicon Valley whom I know speaks no less than it speaks for Indian or Chinese entrepreneurs.
#609 Posted by shankar on July 1, 2009 4:44:37 pm
Riaz,
Perhaps your army would be admired if they did what the Pakistani awam pays it to do---WIN A WAR!!
Lick your fingers Murli...here comes a doosra..
Perhaps your army would be admired if they did what the Pakistani awam pays it to do---WIN A WAR!!
Lick your fingers Murli...here comes a doosra..
#608 Posted by shankar on July 1, 2009 4:42:24 pm
Tahmed,
In the 2009 list, China is 57 & India is 87. Now that's a surprise!
You can get negative stuff about EVERYTHING , including God, Jesus, Mohammed etc etc.by googling the web.
Thats why Riaz amuses me. He will get data to support his bigotry, ignore or pooh pooh articles & experts who don't support his views & then believes what he says is gospel truth. I wont be surprised if many of Riaz's family members are from the military & the ISI.
I'll bet you if India was 10 on the list & Pakistan was 87; Riaz will make it a featured blog on his web page, post it on Chowk Ilogs in bold letters & repeat it in every other post.
Riaz is vying to be Pakistan's Rush Limbaugh...too bad he doesn't have a bigger audience:)
In the 2009 list, China is 57 & India is 87. Now that's a surprise!
You can get negative stuff about EVERYTHING , including God, Jesus, Mohammed etc etc.by googling the web.
Thats why Riaz amuses me. He will get data to support his bigotry, ignore or pooh pooh articles & experts who don't support his views & then believes what he says is gospel truth. I wont be surprised if many of Riaz's family members are from the military & the ISI.
I'll bet you if India was 10 on the list & Pakistan was 87; Riaz will make it a featured blog on his web page, post it on Chowk Ilogs in bold letters & repeat it in every other post.
Riaz is vying to be Pakistan's Rush Limbaugh...too bad he doesn't have a bigger audience:)
#607 Posted by Pardesi on July 1, 2009 4:39:22 pm
Riaz, thanks for your honest response.
I personally have no ill wishes for Pakistan. I just think that one should rather pay price in the short term to build solid foundations (democracy) to reap the rewards in the longer term.
Anyway, it's your nation and all we can do is wish you all the best.
I personally have no ill wishes for Pakistan. I just think that one should rather pay price in the short term to build solid foundations (democracy) to reap the rewards in the longer term.
Anyway, it's your nation and all we can do is wish you all the best.
#606 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 4:31:40 pm
Re: # 602
Pardesi, With respect India, I am not focusing on poverty alleviation as much as chronic hunger and millions of deaths each year resulting from it. It's much more basic than poverty.
As to Pak military, I think you are simply repeating all of the allegations that are motivated by a desire to weaken Pakistan . Army is the only meritocracy where a poor or middle class person has a chance to rise to a decent life...something the feudals do not offer to their serfs on their lands.
Army runs its organization and business far more efficiently than other institutions in Pakistan.
Whenever Pak army is given a task, whether building weapon systems, roads, ports, disaster recovery, running schools or hospitals, or defending Pakistan's borders, they do a much better job than other institutions in Pakistan, in spite of all the propaganda to the contrary.
As I explained earlier, there are three power centers in Pakistan: Feudals, clergy and military that Pakistanis have to choose from. I think the best choice is the military in the absence of any other better alternatives. And I say this as someone who has no personal or family connections with the military.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Pardesi, With respect India, I am not focusing on poverty alleviation as much as chronic hunger and millions of deaths each year resulting from it. It's much more basic than poverty.
As to Pak military, I think you are simply repeating all of the allegations that are motivated by a desire to weaken Pakistan . Army is the only meritocracy where a poor or middle class person has a chance to rise to a decent life...something the feudals do not offer to their serfs on their lands.
Army runs its organization and business far more efficiently than other institutions in Pakistan.
Whenever Pak army is given a task, whether building weapon systems, roads, ports, disaster recovery, running schools or hospitals, or defending Pakistan's borders, they do a much better job than other institutions in Pakistan, in spite of all the propaganda to the contrary.
As I explained earlier, there are three power centers in Pakistan: Feudals, clergy and military that Pakistanis have to choose from. I think the best choice is the military in the absence of any other better alternatives. And I say this as someone who has no personal or family connections with the military.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#605 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 4:18:56 pm
anil sahib: why this preoccupation with labelling pakistan as a "failed state"? india is 57th on the same list (out of over 200 countries) e.g. - so you are hardly in a position to point fingers towards pakistan as if india is hunky dory where you can grandly proclaim pakistan's "failed generation" etc.! and back in the 1960's Pakistan was being held up as a model developing country while it was india that was considered to be a failure with what was jokingly called the "hindu growth rate" of 4% by international economists.
and the same list had pakistan as 34th only last year from where it jumped to 9th - and in fact during this year arguably pakistan has made a significant change for the better by calling the bluff of the taliban via the "swat deal" and turned the nation against them, thus permitting military action. So, while such lists have some merit, reality is not so simple that you can encapsulate it in such simplistic lists.
and the same list had pakistan as 34th only last year from where it jumped to 9th - and in fact during this year arguably pakistan has made a significant change for the better by calling the bluff of the taliban via the "swat deal" and turned the nation against them, thus permitting military action. So, while such lists have some merit, reality is not so simple that you can encapsulate it in such simplistic lists.
#604 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 4:17:39 pm
Just remove any spaces. It should work.
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industrial.h tml
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/ayesha-siddiqa-s-military-inc-deflective-a nd-derogatory-book
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industrial.h tml
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/ayesha-siddiqa-s-military-inc-deflective-a nd-derogatory-book
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#603 Posted by KHYBER on July 1, 2009 4:13:59 pm
Re: # 601RIAZ..THOSE links are not working,please chk your message window.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#602 Posted by Pardesi on July 1, 2009 4:08:47 pm
Riaz, OK let's start by agreeing with you that -
1. India has not been able to eliminate poverty as fast as it should have.
2. Chinese have done a wonderful job for common folks. we all wish we could have done that too.
Also let's forget about future of India and China. Who cares how far and what speed they move.
What are your thoughts about your country's future. Let's look at your realistic options -
1. You dont like democracy. It's slow and painful.
2. You are probably not rooting for Taliban.
3. The army - You seem to like that option. However, are they not as corrupt as any other civilian leaders? Are they not usually in bed with feudals? Dont they manipulate your finances to hog the largest portion of the pie? How are you going to fire them if they dont do what folks expect them to do? How will their record be different this time than last time?
4. I hope you are not wishing for Chinese style communist monopoly?
Just trying to see where you stand.
Thanks.
1. India has not been able to eliminate poverty as fast as it should have.
2. Chinese have done a wonderful job for common folks. we all wish we could have done that too.
Also let's forget about future of India and China. Who cares how far and what speed they move.
What are your thoughts about your country's future. Let's look at your realistic options -
1. You dont like democracy. It's slow and painful.
2. You are probably not rooting for Taliban.
3. The army - You seem to like that option. However, are they not as corrupt as any other civilian leaders? Are they not usually in bed with feudals? Dont they manipulate your finances to hog the largest portion of the pie? How are you going to fire them if they dont do what folks expect them to do? How will their record be different this time than last time?
4. I hope you are not wishing for Chinese style communist monopoly?
Just trying to see where you stand.
Thanks.
#601 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 4:08:19 pm
Re: # 597
It seems chowk inserts blank spaces randomly in links.
Here's a second try:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industrial.ht ml
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/ayesha-siddiqa-s-military-inc-deflective-an d-derogatory-book
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
It seems chowk inserts blank spaces randomly in links.
Here's a second try:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industrial.ht ml
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/ayesha-siddiqa-s-military-inc-deflective-an d-derogatory-book
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#600 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 4:05:09 pm
Re: # 598
Riaz:
"...Regardless of the words you use, your mantra of democracy is motivated by your Indian brainwashing that renders you unable to see faults in any democratic system..."
If it is a mantra, then repeat after me.
LOOK TO DEMOCRACY IN IRAN...
Riaz:
"...Regardless of the words you use, your mantra of democracy is motivated by your Indian brainwashing that renders you unable to see faults in any democratic system..."
If it is a mantra, then repeat after me.
LOOK TO DEMOCRACY IN IRAN...
#599 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 4:04:03 pm
Khybar sahib:
Please have a dream and dream as big as you can for your Pakistan. Please do not waste time reading how good the shade of occupation by army as a proof has been.
Let that feed nightmares of Riaz Haqs. Make this generation and their thinking irrelevant. Let your imagination, and not nonsense in the blogs capture your imagination. This is a failed generation that put your dream of your motherland among the top 10 failed states.
Please have a dream and dream as big as you can for your Pakistan. Please do not waste time reading how good the shade of occupation by army as a proof has been.
Let that feed nightmares of Riaz Haqs. Make this generation and their thinking irrelevant. Let your imagination, and not nonsense in the blogs capture your imagination. This is a failed generation that put your dream of your motherland among the top 10 failed states.
#598 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 4:02:37 pm
Re: # 594
Regardless of the words you use, your mantra of democracy is motivated by your Indian brainwashing that renders you unable to see faults in any democratic system.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Regardless of the words you use, your mantra of democracy is motivated by your Indian brainwashing that renders you unable to see faults in any democratic system.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#597 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 3:59:36 pm
Re: # 591
First of all, you are offering highly exaggerated picture of military businesses. Even Siddiqa Agha does not claim the kind of numbers you are talking about.
Second, military businesses are run profitably, managed professionally, compete with other businesses and pay substantial taxes, unlike the feudal lords who pay no income tax on farm income.
I suggest you read the following to educate yourself and get a more balanced picture of the reality of military businesses in Pakistan:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industri al.html
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/ayesha-siddiqa-s-military-inc-deflecti ve-and-derogatory-book
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
First of all, you are offering highly exaggerated picture of military businesses. Even Siddiqa Agha does not claim the kind of numbers you are talking about.
Second, military businesses are run profitably, managed professionally, compete with other businesses and pay substantial taxes, unlike the feudal lords who pay no income tax on farm income.
I suggest you read the following to educate yourself and get a more balanced picture of the reality of military businesses in Pakistan:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industri al.html
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/ayesha-siddiqa-s-military-inc-deflecti ve-and-derogatory-book
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#596 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 3:56:25 pm
Re: # 591
Riaz:
"....WELL RIAZHAQ sahib,army had that chance,Pakistan had four military Pharaohs and what they did,I don't have to tell you..."
Riaz read the above, a young Pakistani trying to have dream is telling you. This is not from me. Now please do not try to go after him as you go after right wing hindus.
Riaz:
"....WELL RIAZHAQ sahib,army had that chance,Pakistan had four military Pharaohs and what they did,I don't have to tell you..."
Riaz read the above, a young Pakistani trying to have dream is telling you. This is not from me. Now please do not try to go after him as you go after right wing hindus.
#595 Posted by major on July 1, 2009 3:54:36 pm
Re: # 587 anil
[...Pakistani immitators do more damage, when they look at sewer east of border to portray how beautiful they are...]
As if roads and sewers in pakiland are washed with windex everyday (thanks Sri Ram Mullah32)...
Pakis can't even copy what sewer-rat bhindoos have achieved, in terms of education, technology, corporations... let alone copy any other foreign model... Pakis like Riaz know how to burn themselves in jealousy of shining bhindia... LOL
[...Pakistani immitators do more damage, when they look at sewer east of border to portray how beautiful they are...]
As if roads and sewers in pakiland are washed with windex everyday (thanks Sri Ram Mullah32)...
Pakis can't even copy what sewer-rat bhindoos have achieved, in terms of education, technology, corporations... let alone copy any other foreign model... Pakis like Riaz know how to burn themselves in jealousy of shining bhindia... LOL
#594 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 3:54:35 pm
Re: # 590
Riaz:
".... the usual rant is not going to change the reality of India's failures nor should it encourage Pakistanis (or any other people) to look to India as a model of success..."
Only in your nightmare and desperation you would think that I am saying the above. You need to check your mental age in that case.
Let me spell it out.
Look to democracy in Iran.
India is not the bar for Pakistan.
Indian sewers are Indian problems.
You are foolish to think that "Not India" is your standard.
BTW, I challenge you to quote me where I have said Pakistan should use India as an example. Get out of your nightmare, and stop listening to your own echo. I for one is not saying what you are claiming. You are already old, I cannot say that grow up. I can only say leave the stage for younger Pakistanis to create their dream and not your nightmare created by "Not India".
Riaz:
".... the usual rant is not going to change the reality of India's failures nor should it encourage Pakistanis (or any other people) to look to India as a model of success..."
Only in your nightmare and desperation you would think that I am saying the above. You need to check your mental age in that case.
Let me spell it out.
Look to democracy in Iran.
India is not the bar for Pakistan.
Indian sewers are Indian problems.
You are foolish to think that "Not India" is your standard.
BTW, I challenge you to quote me where I have said Pakistan should use India as an example. Get out of your nightmare, and stop listening to your own echo. I for one is not saying what you are claiming. You are already old, I cannot say that grow up. I can only say leave the stage for younger Pakistanis to create their dream and not your nightmare created by "Not India".
#593 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 3:49:01 pm
Riaz:
It seems you remain consumed with India. Your reason to not allow democracy in Pakistan is that it will benefit India is laughable. Your harping of problems in India is just as pathetic.
Yes, India has those problems, so what!!!
Is that a good enough reason to feel good? Is that a good enough reason to not let young Pakistanis have create, live and build a Pakistani dream?
Get over it Riaz, that nonsensical discussion may rile up right wing hindus. Its effect on me is just the opposite that Riaz is making a fool of himself. His yardstick of measure for Pakistan cannot be "Not India". His bar for Pakistani dream must not be kept lower to "Not India".
Give up your obsession about "Not India", and do something about "For Pakistan".
It seems you remain consumed with India. Your reason to not allow democracy in Pakistan is that it will benefit India is laughable. Your harping of problems in India is just as pathetic.
Yes, India has those problems, so what!!!
Is that a good enough reason to feel good? Is that a good enough reason to not let young Pakistanis have create, live and build a Pakistani dream?
Get over it Riaz, that nonsensical discussion may rile up right wing hindus. Its effect on me is just the opposite that Riaz is making a fool of himself. His yardstick of measure for Pakistan cannot be "Not India". His bar for Pakistani dream must not be kept lower to "Not India".
Give up your obsession about "Not India", and do something about "For Pakistan".
#592 Posted by jang on July 1, 2009 3:48:22 pm
it did not embed..this is in shivsena raj..poor minorities have to struggle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcWhMnJ4nWQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcWhMnJ4nWQ
#591 Posted by KHYBER on July 1, 2009 3:42:27 pm
Pakistan army remains in firm control of businesses worth an estimated $40 billion about 10% of the economy. The Pakistani military's "welfare foundations" run thousands of businesses worth tens of billions of dollars, ranging from street-corner petrol pumps to sprawling industrial plants ,retired army officers get civilian jobs while college/uni grads remain jobless,I hate to sat this but army played ugly role in Pakistan's progress.
RIAZhAQ in his post 552 says,'' I believe military rule offers the best hope for an industrialized, educated and prosperous Pakistan that will hopefully lead to a real democracy with a mostly middle-class population. ''....WELL RIAZHAQ sahib,army had that chance,Pakistan had four military Pharaohs and what they did,I don't have to tell you.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
RIAZhAQ in his post 552 says,'' I believe military rule offers the best hope for an industrialized, educated and prosperous Pakistan that will hopefully lead to a real democracy with a mostly middle-class population. ''....WELL RIAZHAQ sahib,army had that chance,Pakistan had four military Pharaohs and what they did,I don't have to tell you.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#590 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 3:36:45 pm
Re: # 585
Anil,
It seems you are blind to the deaths of millions of Indian children from starvation and disease each year while criticizing others. It is nothing but the failure of India's corrupt and poor democratic governance that makes decisive action against hunger and disease impossible.
India suffers from some of the same ills as Pakistan in terms of the conflict between the interests of the middle class which sits higher on Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the majority of urban slum dwellers and rural poor who are stuck at the bottom. It continues to be tale of two Indias...India Shining and India Starving.
You personal attacks and the usual rant is not going to change the reality of India's failures nor should it encourage Pakistanis (or any other people) to look to India as a model of success.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Anil,
It seems you are blind to the deaths of millions of Indian children from starvation and disease each year while criticizing others. It is nothing but the failure of India's corrupt and poor democratic governance that makes decisive action against hunger and disease impossible.
India suffers from some of the same ills as Pakistan in terms of the conflict between the interests of the middle class which sits higher on Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the majority of urban slum dwellers and rural poor who are stuck at the bottom. It continues to be tale of two Indias...India Shining and India Starving.
You personal attacks and the usual rant is not going to change the reality of India's failures nor should it encourage Pakistanis (or any other people) to look to India as a model of success.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#589 Posted by dude40000 on July 1, 2009 3:18:18 pm
Re: # 588
Dishonest nation, dishonest people. Watch what yuor fellow countrymen did. This nation can never progress.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od#2926306
Dishonest nation, dishonest people. Watch what yuor fellow countrymen did. This nation can never progress.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od#2926306
#588 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 1, 2009 2:50:20 pm
Maulana Fazlu (the army pimp terror chief) is seriously injured....according to The Nation.
Is this just game play?
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/P olitics/02-Jul-2009/Fazlullah-seriously-injured-Malik
Is this just game play?
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/P olitics/02-Jul-2009/Fazlullah-seriously-injured-Malik
#587 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 2:46:06 pm
Re: # 577
Tahmed sahib:
Yes, I too support special economic zones in Pakistan, India and elsewhere. The means chinese used, restricted labor movement, did not pay peasants who grew crops, local fuedal like mandarins collecting taxation without any payments or accountability to Bejing are just a few to mention. The list is so long, that Deng Xiao Ping is on the record to say that China cannot do it for too long.
My point is that China's system reflects its people. India's does too. And Pakistani immitators do more damage, when they look at sewer east of border to portray how beautiful they are, and how they must copy foreign model to succeed. I say to them, forget east of the border, let it have its railroads for morning delights. Just look at your west of the border and think.
Pakistanis like Riaz must understand the card they are dealt are the ones they have to play. They cannot play with Chinese cards, that is mental masturbation nothing else.
Tahmed sahib:
Yes, I too support special economic zones in Pakistan, India and elsewhere. The means chinese used, restricted labor movement, did not pay peasants who grew crops, local fuedal like mandarins collecting taxation without any payments or accountability to Bejing are just a few to mention. The list is so long, that Deng Xiao Ping is on the record to say that China cannot do it for too long.
My point is that China's system reflects its people. India's does too. And Pakistani immitators do more damage, when they look at sewer east of border to portray how beautiful they are, and how they must copy foreign model to succeed. I say to them, forget east of the border, let it have its railroads for morning delights. Just look at your west of the border and think.
Pakistanis like Riaz must understand the card they are dealt are the ones they have to play. They cannot play with Chinese cards, that is mental masturbation nothing else.
#586 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 1, 2009 2:37:36 pm
Re: # 582
Its a game of mirrors and face. India does not do it - its warts and all out there.
should be
Its a game of mirrors and face. India does not do it well or at all - its warts and all out there.
Its a game of mirrors and face. India does not do it - its warts and all out there.
should be
Its a game of mirrors and face. India does not do it well or at all - its warts and all out there.
#585 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 2:37:16 pm
Re: # 578
Riaz:
You are merely spilling your disgust with zero ability to create, live in and improve a system for governance.
You do want to understand that Pakistan's history shows up in your face that no military ruler can last long enough to build a nation. There are too many fractures in that society, only fools will compare to South Korea and other East Asian and Chinese models of totalitarianism will not work in Pakistan. Accept it, and do not drool over their success with envy. You are not dealt those cards so please not be a fool to imagine and play their game. Allow those who want to build and those can emerge, it will be good for Pakistan.
You guiding principle "Pakistan Identity" = "Not India" has failed you. Your generation has failed Pakistan.
This principle blinds you, because you cannot accept there is something India has achieved, because in that case according to your guiding principle, Pakistan has become inferior at least on that count. You scrounge the world over to find negative about India, to prove according to your principle hence Pakistan is better. In your principle, anything positive in India is not possible, that it in your mind will make Pakistan look bad. With such a naive principle you only paint your hatred.
The record of military in Pakistan is so short lived that only fools will accept it as nation building.
You scrape the bottom of the barrel or inspect the sewer pipes, railroad tracks of Mumbai to put down democracy. You blindly ignore that west of your border, in Iran, there is a democracy too.
Did you have read today's news; Iran kicked EU out of nuclear discussions. What does your cherished military do? This should make you feel ashamed instead. Democracy in Iran gives a pride in identity, something oodles of wealth in autocratic Saudi Arabia, or your imagined poverty stricken Pakistan’s military cannot deliver.
You should not even use the title of “Pakistan” Alumni. Your appropriate title is “Chumcha of Pakistan Army” .
Let younger Pakistanis dream, don’t tarnish them with the nightmares you and your generation created there.
Riaz:
You are merely spilling your disgust with zero ability to create, live in and improve a system for governance.
You do want to understand that Pakistan's history shows up in your face that no military ruler can last long enough to build a nation. There are too many fractures in that society, only fools will compare to South Korea and other East Asian and Chinese models of totalitarianism will not work in Pakistan. Accept it, and do not drool over their success with envy. You are not dealt those cards so please not be a fool to imagine and play their game. Allow those who want to build and those can emerge, it will be good for Pakistan.
You guiding principle "Pakistan Identity" = "Not India" has failed you. Your generation has failed Pakistan.
This principle blinds you, because you cannot accept there is something India has achieved, because in that case according to your guiding principle, Pakistan has become inferior at least on that count. You scrounge the world over to find negative about India, to prove according to your principle hence Pakistan is better. In your principle, anything positive in India is not possible, that it in your mind will make Pakistan look bad. With such a naive principle you only paint your hatred.
The record of military in Pakistan is so short lived that only fools will accept it as nation building.
You scrape the bottom of the barrel or inspect the sewer pipes, railroad tracks of Mumbai to put down democracy. You blindly ignore that west of your border, in Iran, there is a democracy too.
Did you have read today's news; Iran kicked EU out of nuclear discussions. What does your cherished military do? This should make you feel ashamed instead. Democracy in Iran gives a pride in identity, something oodles of wealth in autocratic Saudi Arabia, or your imagined poverty stricken Pakistan’s military cannot deliver.
You should not even use the title of “Pakistan” Alumni. Your appropriate title is “Chumcha of Pakistan Army” .
Let younger Pakistanis dream, don’t tarnish them with the nightmares you and your generation created there.
#582 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 1, 2009 2:32:45 pm
Re: # 581 Dost, the Chinese are exceptionally good in the game of mirrors. You always see what they want you to see. Their efficiencies are not that great, but having copied Hong Kong experience - they have started replacing the old Commies threats with capitalists threats.
Having been there a number of times, and into the hinterland, i can safely say, that you need to go beyond the surface to see what is hidden behind the below_50%_occupancy_rate steel and glass buildings.
One thing is there though - there is good education, health care - but poor sanitation outside the major cities (Beijing, Shanghai etc). beggary is increasing, and a certain basic honesty which I saw some 15 years back has disappeared over the years. When I first went there, the taxi ride from the airport in Beijing to centre was trouble free. now on a recent visit, when I tried to get a taxi myself - I found myself in a rum situation, when the hosts representative turned up and and the rest was the usual story.
Its a game of mirrors and face. India does not do it - its warts and all out there.
Having been there a number of times, and into the hinterland, i can safely say, that you need to go beyond the surface to see what is hidden behind the below_50%_occupancy_rate steel and glass buildings.
One thing is there though - there is good education, health care - but poor sanitation outside the major cities (Beijing, Shanghai etc). beggary is increasing, and a certain basic honesty which I saw some 15 years back has disappeared over the years. When I first went there, the taxi ride from the airport in Beijing to centre was trouble free. now on a recent visit, when I tried to get a taxi myself - I found myself in a rum situation, when the hosts representative turned up and and the rest was the usual story.
Its a game of mirrors and face. India does not do it - its warts and all out there.
#581 Posted by dost_mittar on July 1, 2009 2:15:31 pm
major#580:
Both the 'great leap forward' and 'great cultural revolution' were unnecessary and probably put the clock back on China's progress. Mao's achievements are in spite of and not because of those two traumatic episodes.
Both the 'great leap forward' and 'great cultural revolution' were unnecessary and probably put the clock back on China's progress. Mao's achievements are in spite of and not because of those two traumatic episodes.
#580 Posted by major on July 1, 2009 2:08:41 pm
Re: # 579 Dm
[..Chinese were known as good-for-nothing opium eaters and not the disciplined and hard workers that they are known today...]
So you ahve to kill millions and torture rest in "re-education" camps to make it happen?...
[..Chinese were known as good-for-nothing opium eaters and not the disciplined and hard workers that they are known today...]
So you ahve to kill millions and torture rest in "re-education" camps to make it happen?...
#579 Posted by dost_mittar on July 1, 2009 2:01:36 pm
Re: # 537
Shankar:
"My personal feeling was that it was Deng & his successors who brought about China's economic miracle. Mao didn't improve the lot of the Chinese."
True, but Deng could not have brought about the miracle if Mao had not paved the ground for it. Mao's Leap Forward did cause starvation death of millions of Chinese and his Cultural Revolution did cause great hardships, especially to Chinese intellectuals. But he also brought radical improvements in mass education and health and transformed China from a feudal society to an egalitarian one, ready for quick strides. One tends to forget that Chinese were known as good-for-nothing opium eaters and not the disciplined and hard workers that they are known today.
Shankar:
"My personal feeling was that it was Deng & his successors who brought about China's economic miracle. Mao didn't improve the lot of the Chinese."
True, but Deng could not have brought about the miracle if Mao had not paved the ground for it. Mao's Leap Forward did cause starvation death of millions of Chinese and his Cultural Revolution did cause great hardships, especially to Chinese intellectuals. But he also brought radical improvements in mass education and health and transformed China from a feudal society to an egalitarian one, ready for quick strides. One tends to forget that Chinese were known as good-for-nothing opium eaters and not the disciplined and hard workers that they are known today.
#578 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 1:53:46 pm
Re: # 571
Anil,
Given your devotion to India's failed democracy that continues to deny the basic human right to food to hundreds of millions of your fellow Indians, I am not surprised by your misguided advice to Malik and tahmed.
But I know your advice is self-serving. Your advice will guarantee that Pakistan remains a laggard nation in alleviating poverty, increasing literacy and reducing hunger. The feudal leaders will be guaranteed to rule Pakistan because their slaves will not be able to vote against their masters. Economy will continue to lag because of corruption and misrule by the likes of Sharif and Zardari.
While there is no guarantee that the military will abolish the feudal system, there is a record of rapid economic expansion under military that creates millions of jobs each year to employ the growing population of young people. Such employment opportunities and options serve to weaken the feudal stranglehold over the poor and disenfranchised in Pakistan. At least 2 million jobs a year were created under Musharraf's rule that opened up new opportunities for both urban and rural poor. The current mismanagement by Zardari's lot has cut that growth rate from 7-8% to less than 2%. It has sent Pakistan begging to the IMF because Pakistan's credit rating cut after Mush's departure does not qualify it for commercial loans on the open market.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Anil,
Given your devotion to India's failed democracy that continues to deny the basic human right to food to hundreds of millions of your fellow Indians, I am not surprised by your misguided advice to Malik and tahmed.
But I know your advice is self-serving. Your advice will guarantee that Pakistan remains a laggard nation in alleviating poverty, increasing literacy and reducing hunger. The feudal leaders will be guaranteed to rule Pakistan because their slaves will not be able to vote against their masters. Economy will continue to lag because of corruption and misrule by the likes of Sharif and Zardari.
While there is no guarantee that the military will abolish the feudal system, there is a record of rapid economic expansion under military that creates millions of jobs each year to employ the growing population of young people. Such employment opportunities and options serve to weaken the feudal stranglehold over the poor and disenfranchised in Pakistan. At least 2 million jobs a year were created under Musharraf's rule that opened up new opportunities for both urban and rural poor. The current mismanagement by Zardari's lot has cut that growth rate from 7-8% to less than 2%. It has sent Pakistan begging to the IMF because Pakistan's credit rating cut after Mush's departure does not qualify it for commercial loans on the open market.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#577 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 1:49:57 pm
anil #571 thanks for your support. and more important, thanks for engaging in civilized and open-minded dialog even when we disagree.
you mentioned development of the Chinese coastal areas. This includes of course the special economic zones which seem to have played a critical role in attracting investments to china. I think something similar is on the works for the fata areas of Pakistan per the latest US aid bill - it will be interesting to see how it is implemented though. if it works, then these most backward areas of pakistan could well become among the most progressive - an ambitious goal but well worth the effort.
you mentioned development of the Chinese coastal areas. This includes of course the special economic zones which seem to have played a critical role in attracting investments to china. I think something similar is on the works for the fata areas of Pakistan per the latest US aid bill - it will be interesting to see how it is implemented though. if it works, then these most backward areas of pakistan could well become among the most progressive - an ambitious goal but well worth the effort.
#576 Posted by tahmed32 on July 1, 2009 1:39:15 pm
#575 haneef.gujar: thanks. i am glad you appreciate what my posts. look forward to hearing more from you on chowk.
PS: i see we both are part of the gujar tribe. hope that did not make you biased in my favor. :-)
PS: i see we both are part of the gujar tribe. hope that did not make you biased in my favor. :-)
#575 Posted by haneef.gujar on July 1, 2009 1:14:48 pm
this message is for tahmed. yaar i have been reading your messages for a long time. i just want to say that i have a lot of respect for what you write and i wish there were more pakistani's like you around. your words have left a lasting impression and as long as people like you are around...the voice of justice and progress will stay alive...take care yaara
#574 Posted by Dash_Dot on July 1, 2009 1:14:07 pm
Re: # 573 dude40000 he is the ideal candidate for replacing the credibilityless Zaid of brasstacks
#573 Posted by dude40000 on July 1, 2009 1:03:16 pm
Re: # 572
I think Riaz should host a reality show contest in Karachi called "Kaun banega Dictator". Contest would be open to all existing and retired Generals of Pak Army. Obviously, Riaz would be the judge and give the keys to President house to the winner.
I think Riaz should host a reality show contest in Karachi called "Kaun banega Dictator". Contest would be open to all existing and retired Generals of Pak Army. Obviously, Riaz would be the judge and give the keys to President house to the winner.
#572 Posted by major on July 1, 2009 12:52:12 pm
Looks like harping on Shining India has burnt up Riaz's meagre brain-cells... he can't even think straight... If Paki Military could/would abolish feaudalism - they would have done so years ago - after all, they ahve been de facto in charge of pakiland for most of pakiland's existence...
#571 Posted by anil on July 1, 2009 12:24:50 pm
Re: # 570
Riaz sahib:
"...Good luck with your expectation that PPP or PML will abolish the feudal system that is the source of their power..."
You talk sarcastically as if your favorite Army would abolish it. They too have used it and relied. What is amazing is your inability that if not tommorrow, but certainly in future, only democracy which gives more votes to Pakistani awam, can remove it. You have this mindset that people do not learn exercise their vote, because you do not want to see the real change east of the border. You want to see only railroad tracks for morning delights.
Empower them and defend the democratic institutions and you would see. You do not want to know what Chinese have been doing to develop coastal China. You are simply anamored by it. Any Pakistani, Malik or Tahmed who have alternate views you beat them up with the same vengence that you use against right wing hindus here. You have blinded yourself to the fact that no dictator could survive in Pakistan for more a few years, which are not enough for a nation to develop.
Malik and Tahmed sahib you have complete support of this foreigner and non-Muslim for whatever it is worth. It is a waste for you to engage in discussion with people like Riaz.
Pursuade young Pakistanis to have a dream and to go for it. Riaz's generation has given enough nightmares. They will make themselves irrelevant, not a minute too soon.
Riaz sahib:
"...Good luck with your expectation that PPP or PML will abolish the feudal system that is the source of their power..."
You talk sarcastically as if your favorite Army would abolish it. They too have used it and relied. What is amazing is your inability that if not tommorrow, but certainly in future, only democracy which gives more votes to Pakistani awam, can remove it. You have this mindset that people do not learn exercise their vote, because you do not want to see the real change east of the border. You want to see only railroad tracks for morning delights.
Empower them and defend the democratic institutions and you would see. You do not want to know what Chinese have been doing to develop coastal China. You are simply anamored by it. Any Pakistani, Malik or Tahmed who have alternate views you beat them up with the same vengence that you use against right wing hindus here. You have blinded yourself to the fact that no dictator could survive in Pakistan for more a few years, which are not enough for a nation to develop.
Malik and Tahmed sahib you have complete support of this foreigner and non-Muslim for whatever it is worth. It is a waste for you to engage in discussion with people like Riaz.
Pursuade young Pakistanis to have a dream and to go for it. Riaz's generation has given enough nightmares. They will make themselves irrelevant, not a minute too soon.
#570 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 11:58:12 am
Re: # 567
Good luck with your expectation that PPP or PML will abolish the feudal system that is the source of their power.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Good luck with your expectation that PPP or PML will abolish the feudal system that is the source of their power.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#569 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 11:53:45 am
Re: # 568
No, I did not miss it.
India's low export volume and high trade deficits are a known problem,
especially when compare with China's performance.
But it's reduced the impact of global recession on India'seconomy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
No, I did not miss it.
India's low export volume and high trade deficits are a known problem,
especially when compare with China's performance.
But it's reduced the impact of global recession on India'seconomy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#568 Posted by Pardesi on July 1, 2009 11:26:12 am
Riaz, you some how missed this one. I thought it will cheer you up :).
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/busines s/8128449.stm?ad=1
India's exports continue to fall .. India's exports fell in May for the eighth month in a row as overseas demand for goods continued to shrink in the global recession ..
Exports in May were valued at 534.3bn rupees ($11bn; £6.7bn), down 29.2% from 655bn rupees a year earlier, government figures showed ...
Exports are a significant driver behind the Indian economy, making up about 15% of gross domestic product.
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/busines s/8128449.stm?ad=1
India's exports continue to fall .. India's exports fell in May for the eighth month in a row as overseas demand for goods continued to shrink in the global recession ..
Exports in May were valued at 534.3bn rupees ($11bn; £6.7bn), down 29.2% from 655bn rupees a year earlier, government figures showed ...
Exports are a significant driver behind the Indian economy, making up about 15% of gross domestic product.
#567 Posted by malikrashid on July 1, 2009 11:13:41 am
Re: # 564
Feudalism can be abolished by democracy. Democracy is the only legitimate way of conducting business of the state.
Feudalism can be abolished by democracy. Democracy is the only legitimate way of conducting business of the state.
#566 Posted by iron_mask on July 1, 2009 11:07:02 am
Re: # 562 :D :D :D :D
I just cannot help it.....Tiger you are da man (T)
I just cannot help it.....Tiger you are da man (T)
#565 Posted by malikrashid on July 1, 2009 11:03:11 am
Re: # 564
A military dictatorship would be a disaster for Pakistanis, in the present situation. That would be a direct route into another break-up of the country.
A military dictatorship would be a disaster for Pakistanis, in the present situation. That would be a direct route into another break-up of the country.
#564 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 10:57:57 am
Re: # 563
You support for a feudal democracy translated into the ultimate oppression and extreme contempt for the poor.
Your hatred of Musharraf is based on your misguided idealism for democracy that is resulting in the quiet violence against millions of rural Pakistanis on a daily basis.
Economic of of less than the population growth is the real disaster you are ignoring in your ode to Pak democracy in the current situation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
You support for a feudal democracy translated into the ultimate oppression and extreme contempt for the poor.
Your hatred of Musharraf is based on your misguided idealism for democracy that is resulting in the quiet violence against millions of rural Pakistanis on a daily basis.
Economic of of less than the population growth is the real disaster you are ignoring in your ode to Pak democracy in the current situation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#563 Posted by malikrashid on July 1, 2009 10:44:07 am
Re: # 562
Mr. Haq
You praise General Musharraf for being secular and you prescribe less freedom of information. You find Musharraf's economic achievements laudable but you do not like the growth of the selfish middle-class. Do you notice the inherent flaw in your line of thinking?
You present your deep information of the intelligence sources by telling us that Mujib, Indira Gandhi and Bhutto broke Pakistan without mentioning the treachery perpetrated by the so-called federation of Pakistan and the mass murders and rape of innocent bengalis committed by Pakistan army. You think that the people are misguided and ignorant when they vote to remedy their misery. You sound like somebody at a great distance from reality in Pakistan. Your contempt for the common man is borrowed from the British goras who ruled India. There is a saying " Angrez left but the left their off-springs".
Mr. Haq
You praise General Musharraf for being secular and you prescribe less freedom of information. You find Musharraf's economic achievements laudable but you do not like the growth of the selfish middle-class. Do you notice the inherent flaw in your line of thinking?
You present your deep information of the intelligence sources by telling us that Mujib, Indira Gandhi and Bhutto broke Pakistan without mentioning the treachery perpetrated by the so-called federation of Pakistan and the mass murders and rape of innocent bengalis committed by Pakistan army. You think that the people are misguided and ignorant when they vote to remedy their misery. You sound like somebody at a great distance from reality in Pakistan. Your contempt for the common man is borrowed from the British goras who ruled India. There is a saying " Angrez left but the left their off-springs".
#562 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 10:24:36 am
Re: # 559
malik, you are repeating the half-truths that are often used to justify feudal democracy in Pakistan by Pak liberals and pseudo intellectuals.
1971 debacle was the result of an election where Bhutto and Mujib were elected by ignorant, misguided people who voted along regional/feudal/ethnic lines. This election strengthened the hands of these politicians who engineered the breakup of the country with India's help for the sake of gaining power.
You should read and understand a lot of classified stuff that has now been documented about the treachery of Mujib and selfishness of Bhutto and opportunism by Indira Gandhi, the three main culprits of collapse of Pakistani state.
I do agree that Zia was a bad dictator who brought ruin to Pakistan by aligning himself with the Mullahs and used US help to perpetuate his own power. Zia also left the legacy of Sharif and Bhutto who were extremely corrupt and incompetent. Sharif was clearly groomed by Zia and he is a creature of Zia's military. Had Zia not killed Bhutto, the PPP would not have rebounded as it did. Instead of killing Bhutto, Zia should have killed the feudal system to emasculate the PPP.
But Mushraraf did a great job of reviving the moribund Pak economy after the lost decade of the 90s which was characterized by massive misrule by Bhutto and Sharif in the name of democracy. His economic liberalization was a brilliant move that brought tons of foreign investment, created millions of jobs and helped Pakistan achieve very high economic growth rates.
Musharraf's real mistake was that he was too benevolent in liberalizing and proliferating the media and aligning himself with the Chaudhrys. That's what led to his downfall, when he as unable to control the chaos on the streets unleashed by the media that he helped create.
Musharraf was the most secular Pak leader who emerged from the middle class and he tried to control the Mullahs the best he could. And he significantly expanded the middle class that also contributed to his downfall because the selfish middle class cares more for its right to protest that for the poor people's right to jobs and bread.
The real conflict in Pakistan comes from the fact that we have the vast majority of the people at the lowest levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs who are stuck under the terrible feudal system, while about 10-20% are at higher levels seeking personal liberties and political rights and are willing to accept a feudal democracy in return.
And because of the Western obsession with democracy and pressure on Pakistan, the 10-20% end up getting their wish at the expense of 80-90% who remain stuck in slavery under their feudal/tribal masters.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
malik, you are repeating the half-truths that are often used to justify feudal democracy in Pakistan by Pak liberals and pseudo intellectuals.
1971 debacle was the result of an election where Bhutto and Mujib were elected by ignorant, misguided people who voted along regional/feudal/ethnic lines. This election strengthened the hands of these politicians who engineered the breakup of the country with India's help for the sake of gaining power.
You should read and understand a lot of classified stuff that has now been documented about the treachery of Mujib and selfishness of Bhutto and opportunism by Indira Gandhi, the three main culprits of collapse of Pakistani state.
I do agree that Zia was a bad dictator who brought ruin to Pakistan by aligning himself with the Mullahs and used US help to perpetuate his own power. Zia also left the legacy of Sharif and Bhutto who were extremely corrupt and incompetent. Sharif was clearly groomed by Zia and he is a creature of Zia's military. Had Zia not killed Bhutto, the PPP would not have rebounded as it did. Instead of killing Bhutto, Zia should have killed the feudal system to emasculate the PPP.
But Mushraraf did a great job of reviving the moribund Pak economy after the lost decade of the 90s which was characterized by massive misrule by Bhutto and Sharif in the name of democracy. His economic liberalization was a brilliant move that brought tons of foreign investment, created millions of jobs and helped Pakistan achieve very high economic growth rates.
Musharraf's real mistake was that he was too benevolent in liberalizing and proliferating the media and aligning himself with the Chaudhrys. That's what led to his downfall, when he as unable to control the chaos on the streets unleashed by the media that he helped create.
Musharraf was the most secular Pak leader who emerged from the middle class and he tried to control the Mullahs the best he could. And he significantly expanded the middle class that also contributed to his downfall because the selfish middle class cares more for its right to protest that for the poor people's right to jobs and bread.
The real conflict in Pakistan comes from the fact that we have the vast majority of the people at the lowest levels of Maslow's hierarchy of needs who are stuck under the terrible feudal system, while about 10-20% are at higher levels seeking personal liberties and political rights and are willing to accept a feudal democracy in return.
And because of the Western obsession with democracy and pressure on Pakistan, the 10-20% end up getting their wish at the expense of 80-90% who remain stuck in slavery under their feudal/tribal masters.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#561 Posted by iron_mask on July 1, 2009 10:06:12 am
Riaz.....good for you...you are only one in the world who can understand this phenomena.
Go for it tiger(T)
Go for it tiger(T)
#560 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 9:55:39 am
Re: # 556
These poor misguided souls you talk about, and their victims are obviously a problem for the world and for Pakistan, but their impact is considerably less than the preventable but quiet violence of poverty, disease and hunger that takes place in India and other parts of the world without getting headlines on a daily basis. For example, 1000 Indian children dead everyday from diarrhea alone does not make headlines, but a few city folks killed by terrorists is guaranteed to feed the corporate-owned media frenzy.
The 24X7 news cycle only focuses on the exceptions rather than the norm. The tabloid reporting by the proliferating cable/satellite channels distorts the reality of the situation by taking away attention from the much bigger threat of poverty hunger in places like India and sub-Saharan Africa.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
These poor misguided souls you talk about, and their victims are obviously a problem for the world and for Pakistan, but their impact is considerably less than the preventable but quiet violence of poverty, disease and hunger that takes place in India and other parts of the world without getting headlines on a daily basis. For example, 1000 Indian children dead everyday from diarrhea alone does not make headlines, but a few city folks killed by terrorists is guaranteed to feed the corporate-owned media frenzy.
The 24X7 news cycle only focuses on the exceptions rather than the norm. The tabloid reporting by the proliferating cable/satellite channels distorts the reality of the situation by taking away attention from the much bigger threat of poverty hunger in places like India and sub-Saharan Africa.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#559 Posted by malikrashid on July 1, 2009 9:54:20 am
Re: # 558
There is the educated middle-class of Pakistan and the poor. Do you think they could participate in the decisions that affect their lives? Please tell me about the strength of the economy these dictators built after killing all dissenting voices. After the great rise of Ayub came the gravest debacle of 1971. After Zia, Pakistan was economically on the brink and after Musharraf, Pakistan is on the verge of extinction. Baloch want secession. There is a war in Pakhtunistan. The economic stability of Musharraf era was poisoned by the the insecurity and instability the military leadership created. Military has only one option in Pakistan. They must withdraw from their encroached political and economic positions. Lands rewarded to the military and those owned by the feudal lords must be allocated to the rural poor.
There is the educated middle-class of Pakistan and the poor. Do you think they could participate in the decisions that affect their lives? Please tell me about the strength of the economy these dictators built after killing all dissenting voices. After the great rise of Ayub came the gravest debacle of 1971. After Zia, Pakistan was economically on the brink and after Musharraf, Pakistan is on the verge of extinction. Baloch want secession. There is a war in Pakhtunistan. The economic stability of Musharraf era was poisoned by the the insecurity and instability the military leadership created. Military has only one option in Pakistan. They must withdraw from their encroached political and economic positions. Lands rewarded to the military and those owned by the feudal lords must be allocated to the rural poor.
#558 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 9:36:52 am
Re: # 557
Military rule is never ideal. It has a lot of flaws. But you have to put in context of the alternatives in Pakistan.
Feudals are far more corrupt and incompetent than the military folks, and unlike the military, they have absolutely no real empathy and connection with the poor and the middle class, other than to be their masters.
Regardless of the spin you hear, the facts and the data amply demonstrate that Pakistan has experienced real and accelerated economic growth under military than under civilian feudal rule.
The interruption of the military rule has always brought disaster in Pakistan because the feudal politicians have created tremendous chaos, first by violent protests on the streets that mainly hurt the poor, and then by their horrible misrule that hurts everybody.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Military rule is never ideal. It has a lot of flaws. But you have to put in context of the alternatives in Pakistan.
Feudals are far more corrupt and incompetent than the military folks, and unlike the military, they have absolutely no real empathy and connection with the poor and the middle class, other than to be their masters.
Regardless of the spin you hear, the facts and the data amply demonstrate that Pakistan has experienced real and accelerated economic growth under military than under civilian feudal rule.
The interruption of the military rule has always brought disaster in Pakistan because the feudal politicians have created tremendous chaos, first by violent protests on the streets that mainly hurt the poor, and then by their horrible misrule that hurts everybody.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#557 Posted by malikrashid on July 1, 2009 9:26:00 am
Re: # 552
Have you seen the 33 years of military rule or misrule? State of governance is miserable. There are no civil institutions in Pakistan. The feudals and the clergy are manifestations of military power, so are the ethno-fascists. The climate of extremism, extreme poverty and lack of security did not happen in few months of civilian rule. Pakistan military involved in the conquest of Kabul and other over-reaching militarism which brought Pakistan to the brink of another disaster after 1971. The size of the military should be reduced drastically in the next few years so Pakistanis could see some government focus on the issues concerning them.
Have you seen the 33 years of military rule or misrule? State of governance is miserable. There are no civil institutions in Pakistan. The feudals and the clergy are manifestations of military power, so are the ethno-fascists. The climate of extremism, extreme poverty and lack of security did not happen in few months of civilian rule. Pakistan military involved in the conquest of Kabul and other over-reaching militarism which brought Pakistan to the brink of another disaster after 1971. The size of the military should be reduced drastically in the next few years so Pakistanis could see some government focus on the issues concerning them.
#556 Posted by iron_mask on July 1, 2009 8:58:16 am
Re: # 553 Riaz, mian, you should first think of the opoor souls being sent by your kind, ilk, relatives to kill and kill others.
these poor boys are sold for a few dollars to kill across the world all in the name of the religion you hold dear.
You should be ashamed of it and forget the Indians for a moment.
get over the fact that you are a used condom(T)
these poor boys are sold for a few dollars to kill across the world all in the name of the religion you hold dear.
You should be ashamed of it and forget the Indians for a moment.
get over the fact that you are a used condom(T)
#555 Posted by iron_mask on July 1, 2009 8:56:10 am
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#554 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 8:50:39 am
The UN estimates that 2.1 million Indian children die before reaching the age of 5 every year – four every minute - mostly from preventable illnesses such as diarrhoea, typhoid, malaria, measles and pneumonia. Every day, 1,000 Indian children die because of diarrhoea alone.
http://motherchildnutrition.org/india/index.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
http://motherchildnutrition.org/india/index.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#553 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 8:44:37 am
Re: # 551
Count all the dead from hunger and malnutrition (currently 2 million children die each year from hunger in India) and you'll end up with more than 100 million dead in Shining India.
Many more die each year from disease due to lack of basic sanitation.
Many remain illiterate and unable to make a living and live in deep poverty and squalor in Shining India.
But, as I have said before, there is no human right more fundamental than the right to food, which is lacking in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Count all the dead from hunger and malnutrition (currently 2 million children die each year from hunger in India) and you'll end up with more than 100 million dead in Shining India.
Many more die each year from disease due to lack of basic sanitation.
Many remain illiterate and unable to make a living and live in deep poverty and squalor in Shining India.
But, as I have said before, there is no human right more fundamental than the right to food, which is lacking in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#552 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 8:36:19 am
Re: # 548
Just as individuals have to make choices, nations too have to choose from the various options available to them.
There are three power centers in Pakistan: Feudal/Tribal chiefs, military and clergy.
Feudal/tribal chiefs literally "own" the rural poor who live on their vast tracts of farm land. And since the rural poor make up more than half the population, they vote for their masters to rule in a "democracy". These feudals are selfish, incompetent and corrupt. They are mainly interested in maintaining the feudal system that guarantees their power over their people.
The clergy are not too different from the feudals. They have no economic agenda other than to enrich themselves. They fear a well-educated population that will ignore them and hurt their business. So they keep preaching the most retrogressive version of Islam to maintain their own power, and some are willing to commit acts of terror in pursuit of power.
The military has its own interests but it consists mainly of the middle and poor classes who have focused on industrial growth, and own a number of civilian businesses from cereal and cement to finance and construction, that requires human resource development for the skills they need.
The only one of three power centers that has any interest in human and industrial development is the military.
Given the choices Pakistanis have, I believe military rule offers the best hope for an industrialized, educated and prosperous Pakistan that will hopefully lead to a real democracy with a mostly middle-class population.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Just as individuals have to make choices, nations too have to choose from the various options available to them.
There are three power centers in Pakistan: Feudal/Tribal chiefs, military and clergy.
Feudal/tribal chiefs literally "own" the rural poor who live on their vast tracts of farm land. And since the rural poor make up more than half the population, they vote for their masters to rule in a "democracy". These feudals are selfish, incompetent and corrupt. They are mainly interested in maintaining the feudal system that guarantees their power over their people.
The clergy are not too different from the feudals. They have no economic agenda other than to enrich themselves. They fear a well-educated population that will ignore them and hurt their business. So they keep preaching the most retrogressive version of Islam to maintain their own power, and some are willing to commit acts of terror in pursuit of power.
The military has its own interests but it consists mainly of the middle and poor classes who have focused on industrial growth, and own a number of civilian businesses from cereal and cement to finance and construction, that requires human resource development for the skills they need.
The only one of three power centers that has any interest in human and industrial development is the military.
Given the choices Pakistanis have, I believe military rule offers the best hope for an industrialized, educated and prosperous Pakistan that will hopefully lead to a real democracy with a mostly middle-class population.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#551 Posted by major on July 1, 2009 8:20:48 am
Re: # 537 shankar
[...I'm not condoning what the Chinese have done in their history. Such things have happened in many countries...]
Really? which other countries have killed 20 million of their own people and tortured and murdered millions in "re-education" labor camps?...
[...I'm not condoning what the Chinese have done in their history. Such things have happened in many countries...]
Really? which other countries have killed 20 million of their own people and tortured and murdered millions in "re-education" labor camps?...
#550 Posted by RiazHaq on July 1, 2009 8:14:04 am
Here's a 2003 report I was referring to:
Dell said it had received some complaints about the technical support through the overseas support center, with one executive saying that customers reacted unfavorably to the fact that Dell had changed how it handled those calls.
Newspapers located near Dell's Austin, Texas headquarters reported that customers were complaining not only about having their calls answered by technical support staff who spoke with accents but also about receiving scripted responses to their questions rather than one-on-one support.
Dell's own online user forum is rife with recent complaints about attempts to reach Dell for technical and nontechnical customer support.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32248.html
It may well be that Dell is back in India since the 2003 decision to pull out.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Dell said it had received some complaints about the technical support through the overseas support center, with one executive saying that customers reacted unfavorably to the fact that Dell had changed how it handled those calls.
Newspapers located near Dell's Austin, Texas headquarters reported that customers were complaining not only about having their calls answered by technical support staff who spoke with accents but also about receiving scripted responses to their questions rather than one-on-one support.
Dell's own online user forum is rife with recent complaints about attempts to reach Dell for technical and nontechnical customer support.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/32248.html
It may well be that Dell is back in India since the 2003 decision to pull out.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#549 Posted by harish_hyd on July 1, 2009 1:39:30 am
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#548 Posted by majumdar on July 1, 2009 1:30:02 am
When I was in high school and college which is about 20 years back, opinion was still divided as to whether democracy was suited to India or not. Many thought No- some of these advocated Marxism others thought army rule would be more appropriated. Today, Indians who live in India are painfully aware of their shortcomings and how they have slid behind rest of Asia but I dont see too many folks suggesting that democracy (of whatever limited form we see here) shud be done away with. There is a realisation of two things:
One, a dictatorial govt may well be better at governance and ensure that economic growth is faster but at the same time may alienate many of India's provinces and diverse peoples who live in the country-esp those away from center and provoke secessionist tendences.
Two, it is questioned that even the above premise that an authoritarian govt will necessarily result in faster economic growth or better governance.
The opinion of folks like Sufi Mohd, Hamid mian, Gf, LW and above all Riaz Haq sahib suggests that this debate is by no means complete in Pakistan and that many Pakis hope to have an authoritarian govt which will prove better at solving Pak's myriad problems.
Hopefully both India and Pakistan will chose a mode of governance which suits the temperament of their people.
Regards
One, a dictatorial govt may well be better at governance and ensure that economic growth is faster but at the same time may alienate many of India's provinces and diverse peoples who live in the country-esp those away from center and provoke secessionist tendences.
Two, it is questioned that even the above premise that an authoritarian govt will necessarily result in faster economic growth or better governance.
The opinion of folks like Sufi Mohd, Hamid mian, Gf, LW and above all Riaz Haq sahib suggests that this debate is by no means complete in Pakistan and that many Pakis hope to have an authoritarian govt which will prove better at solving Pak's myriad problems.
Hopefully both India and Pakistan will chose a mode of governance which suits the temperament of their people.
Regards
#547 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:54:49 pm
anil sir #514 you asked what I meant by the biggest danger to India and Pakistan is "that which cannot be named".
I meant "the unknown" (I took it from the concept of God being an entity "which cannot be named" - meaning something whose characteristics cannot be understood by man). Thbe point being that the issues on which we have "chakh chakh" going on on chowk 24/7 are irrelevant in real life (after all, it is supremely irrelevant wwho did what to whom in the 15th century or what happens to Kashmir 10 years from now or whose god is evil and whose god is divine).
It is things we dont worry about - microbes (which have proved capable of evolving faster the past 20 years than the development of new antibiotics), climate change, ecological disasers resulting from the once-in-a-billion-years mass extinction that is now in progress thanks to population growth and unchecked "development" - that are the real dangers. And yet these "hidden" dangers dont register when it comes to India-Pakistan politics.
I meant "the unknown" (I took it from the concept of God being an entity "which cannot be named" - meaning something whose characteristics cannot be understood by man). Thbe point being that the issues on which we have "chakh chakh" going on on chowk 24/7 are irrelevant in real life (after all, it is supremely irrelevant wwho did what to whom in the 15th century or what happens to Kashmir 10 years from now or whose god is evil and whose god is divine).
It is things we dont worry about - microbes (which have proved capable of evolving faster the past 20 years than the development of new antibiotics), climate change, ecological disasers resulting from the once-in-a-billion-years mass extinction that is now in progress thanks to population growth and unchecked "development" - that are the real dangers. And yet these "hidden" dangers dont register when it comes to India-Pakistan politics.
#546 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:54:46 pm
anil sir #514 you asked what I meant by the biggest danger to India and Pakistan is "that which cannot be named".
I meant "the unknown" (I took it from the concept of God being an entity "which cannot be named" - meaning something whose characteristics cannot be understood by man). Thbe point being that the issues on which we have "chakh chakh" going on on chowk 24/7 are irrelevant in real life (after all, it is supremely irrelevant wwho did what to whom in the 15th century or what happens to Kashmir 10 years from now or whose god is evil and whose god is divine).
It is things we dont worry about - microbes (which have proved capable of evolving faster the past 20 years than the development of new antibiotics), climate change, ecological disasers resulting from the once-in-a-billion-years mass extinction that is now in progress thanks to population growth and unchecked "development" - that are the real dangers. And yet these "hidden" dangers dont register when it comes to India-Pakistan politics.
I meant "the unknown" (I took it from the concept of God being an entity "which cannot be named" - meaning something whose characteristics cannot be understood by man). Thbe point being that the issues on which we have "chakh chakh" going on on chowk 24/7 are irrelevant in real life (after all, it is supremely irrelevant wwho did what to whom in the 15th century or what happens to Kashmir 10 years from now or whose god is evil and whose god is divine).
It is things we dont worry about - microbes (which have proved capable of evolving faster the past 20 years than the development of new antibiotics), climate change, ecological disasers resulting from the once-in-a-billion-years mass extinction that is now in progress thanks to population growth and unchecked "development" - that are the real dangers. And yet these "hidden" dangers dont register when it comes to India-Pakistan politics.
#545 Posted by Goldfinger on June 30, 2009 7:36:01 pm
Re: # 524
CoolAl...yes come up with whatever number that would be balm to your bruised ego...the Islamic hoards (as you call it) first appeared in 712 AD when bin Qasim triumphed at Sindh...last crushing defeat was administered by Ahmed Shah Abdali to the Marhattas at Panipat...in between Mahmud Ghaznavi came in about 985, Mohammad Ghori in 1206, and then all the way to Ahmed Shah Abdali. The Brits took over charge from the Mughals in 1857. Now do the math...Madrassah or any kind...I'm sorry I'd feel bad about it myself if I were in your "Cool" shoes.
CoolAl...yes come up with whatever number that would be balm to your bruised ego...the Islamic hoards (as you call it) first appeared in 712 AD when bin Qasim triumphed at Sindh...last crushing defeat was administered by Ahmed Shah Abdali to the Marhattas at Panipat...in between Mahmud Ghaznavi came in about 985, Mohammad Ghori in 1206, and then all the way to Ahmed Shah Abdali. The Brits took over charge from the Mughals in 1857. Now do the math...Madrassah or any kind...I'm sorry I'd feel bad about it myself if I were in your "Cool" shoes.
#544 Posted by Goldfinger on June 30, 2009 7:16:13 pm
Re: # 513
Shankar,
If you are alluding to '71...I'd say it was more more due to internal causes and successful exploitation of those by India rather than some masterful stroke of generalship, courage and bravery, like say that of Ahmed Shah Abdali's crushing victory against the Marhattas at Panipat, when he achieved this with an army of about 60,000 against 200,000. Other than the instance of '71...all other instances have been at the worst stalemated, despite the fact that Pakistan has been continuously mismanaged at the top...however in # 507 I mentioned India's '62 outing in the context of India-China comparisons, because India and China are closer in size and population, and Pakistan, though a fairly big sized country, is a lot smaller than India and China. Naturally wars and fights in a neighborhood always reflect badly upon all the neighbors concerned.
Shankar,
If you are alluding to '71...I'd say it was more more due to internal causes and successful exploitation of those by India rather than some masterful stroke of generalship, courage and bravery, like say that of Ahmed Shah Abdali's crushing victory against the Marhattas at Panipat, when he achieved this with an army of about 60,000 against 200,000. Other than the instance of '71...all other instances have been at the worst stalemated, despite the fact that Pakistan has been continuously mismanaged at the top...however in # 507 I mentioned India's '62 outing in the context of India-China comparisons, because India and China are closer in size and population, and Pakistan, though a fairly big sized country, is a lot smaller than India and China. Naturally wars and fights in a neighborhood always reflect badly upon all the neighbors concerned.
#543 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 6:13:02 pm
Sorry, try it now
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_b t/618.php?nid=&id=&pnt=618&lb=
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions_b t/618.php?nid=&id=&pnt=618&lb=
#542 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 5:59:37 pm
Re: # 537shankar..''My personal feeling was that it was Deng & his successors who brought about China's economic miracle.''
thats a fact,I read this impressive book,''THE NEW EMPERORS'' BY HARRISON E SALISBURY''its really a good book on China from MAO TO DENG, if you like read it.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
thats a fact,I read this impressive book,''THE NEW EMPERORS'' BY HARRISON E SALISBURY''its really a good book on China from MAO TO DENG, if you like read it.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#541 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 5:37:18 pm
Re: # 540 RiazHaq ...thats true.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#540 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 5:23:10 pm
Re: # 526
I couldn't find the survey, your link does not work.
But when was this survey taken? Last year, during the campaign when Obama was threatening to invade Pak? That would certainly please Indians but not please Pakistanis.
My preference for Obama over Bush is based on what I have seen so far but I am not ready to believe everything he is saying. But he is saying a lot right things since he became president.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I couldn't find the survey, your link does not work.
But when was this survey taken? Last year, during the campaign when Obama was threatening to invade Pak? That would certainly please Indians but not please Pakistanis.
My preference for Obama over Bush is based on what I have seen so far but I am not ready to believe everything he is saying. But he is saying a lot right things since he became president.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#539 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 5:21:16 pm
Re: # 535 RiazHaq ...thanks for updates,I really don't feel comfy when talking and giving my personal info to people in other countries,I know American customers had alot of complains.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#537 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 5:09:05 pm
Pakistanis like China because it has been a very good friend to Pakistan throughout its history, unlike the Americans. That's understandable & what's wrong with that? Did India stand up to the human rights record of the Soviet Union when they were our friends?
{{pakis here are peddling china as their next white momin hope... china is all pwoerful can-do-no-wrong super-duper power that is epitome of humanty in the world...}}
That's your interpretation. Yes, Pakistan is delighted that China's tits are getting bigger...more milk to suck..
The Indian leadership should try a little harder to improve relations with China. At least they should be as good as Sino-US relationship. I'm not condoning what the Chinese have done in their history. Such things have happened in many countries.
My personal feeling was that it was Deng & his successors who brought about China's economic miracle. Mao didn't improve the lot of the Chinese. We got to give them credit for that.
{{pakis here are peddling china as their next white momin hope... china is all pwoerful can-do-no-wrong super-duper power that is epitome of humanty in the world...}}
That's your interpretation. Yes, Pakistan is delighted that China's tits are getting bigger...more milk to suck..
The Indian leadership should try a little harder to improve relations with China. At least they should be as good as Sino-US relationship. I'm not condoning what the Chinese have done in their history. Such things have happened in many countries.
My personal feeling was that it was Deng & his successors who brought about China's economic miracle. Mao didn't improve the lot of the Chinese. We got to give them credit for that.
#536 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 5:08:58 pm
Re: # 534 mohar11...first of all I hate what those fanatics did in mumbai last year,what TALIBAN doing in Pakistan is wrong too,I hope india and pakistan work sincerely to prevent these barbarian acts both in india and pakistan,but unfortunately there are reports that indian RAW is supporting Taliban.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#535 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 4:59:19 pm
Re: # 520
Khyber, Dell stopped doing tech support from India after a lot of customer complaints. This happened several years ago.
The growth of outsourcing within the US and Canada as well as the high customer satisfaction data for North America are particularly noteworthy in a recent oDesk survey. It seems to indicate that more and more North American companies are showing preference for outsourcing close to home.
According to oDesk, new technology appears to be helping close the cost gap between North America and the rest of the top seven outsourcing destinations that include the Philippines ( with 789% growth in its outsourcing business in 2007-8), Pakistan ( 328% ) US (260%), Canada (121%), India (113%), the Ukraine (77%) and Russia (43%).
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Khyber, Dell stopped doing tech support from India after a lot of customer complaints. This happened several years ago.
The growth of outsourcing within the US and Canada as well as the high customer satisfaction data for North America are particularly noteworthy in a recent oDesk survey. It seems to indicate that more and more North American companies are showing preference for outsourcing close to home.
According to oDesk, new technology appears to be helping close the cost gap between North America and the rest of the top seven outsourcing destinations that include the Philippines ( with 789% growth in its outsourcing business in 2007-8), Pakistan ( 328% ) US (260%), Canada (121%), India (113%), the Ukraine (77%) and Russia (43%).
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#534 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 4:56:58 pm
Re: # 532 khyber
[..forget the past and move on...]
what past?... paki jihadis are killing people around the region as you sit here and babble nonsense - they killed hundreds just last year in mumbai... and they are actually expanding their operations in sanctuaries around in pakiland... more attacks are due anyday...
Move on to where - to bizzaro world?... you can't be that dense...
[..forget the past and move on...]
what past?... paki jihadis are killing people around the region as you sit here and babble nonsense - they killed hundreds just last year in mumbai... and they are actually expanding their operations in sanctuaries around in pakiland... more attacks are due anyday...
Move on to where - to bizzaro world?... you can't be that dense...
#533 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 4:53:31 pm
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#532 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:53:07 pm
Re: # 529 mohar11 gee,what shnaker is saying that sounds to me to forget the past and move on,talking about past will not help india or pakistan,lets work for the future,the problem at chowk is everyone loves to live in the past.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#531 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 4:51:08 pm
I mean hitler is evil for killing 6 milion jews, but the chinese get a free pass for killing 20 million... right...
And Mao is the "greatest dear leader" of "People's revolution" by killing so many... yep, that sounds right...
Moron pakis...
And Mao is the "greatest dear leader" of "People's revolution" by killing so many... yep, that sounds right...
Moron pakis...
#530 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:50:35 pm
Re: # 527mohar11 ... ''so chinese have "right" to kill people in name of protecting "revolution", but hindoos don't have that right... Huh?'''
Of course Chinese Govt has right to protect their country,also Indian Govt or any other country has right to protect their citizens etc,but if civilians are killing fellow civilians like in India hindoos killing Muslims or christens,or in Kashmir muslim girls were raped and killed by Indian army officers are two different issues, Tiananmen Square incident was different issue,that was an attack on China by the forces of imperialists and bourgeious and there is too much anti china media propaganda too.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
Of course Chinese Govt has right to protect their country,also Indian Govt or any other country has right to protect their citizens etc,but if civilians are killing fellow civilians like in India hindoos killing Muslims or christens,or in Kashmir muslim girls were raped and killed by Indian army officers are two different issues, Tiananmen Square incident was different issue,that was an attack on China by the forces of imperialists and bourgeious and there is too much anti china media propaganda too.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#529 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 4:45:20 pm
Re: # 523 shankar
criticizing china here is mainly because pakis here are peddling china as their next white momin hope... china is all pwoerful can-do-no-wrong super-duper power that is epitome of humanty in the world...
nobody said India's record is good - but it's a picinic when compared to china's... killing millions in labor camps and for imagined "revolutions" is simply horrible - no one on face of earth killed as many as chinese have - with possible exception of the Soviets...
yes, china has done well economically, so what?... that can NOT subsitute their crimes against humanty in anyway - what they have done in past or what they are doing right now - for example - in tibet...
Pakis worship the chinese, but then they are pakis...
criticizing china here is mainly because pakis here are peddling china as their next white momin hope... china is all pwoerful can-do-no-wrong super-duper power that is epitome of humanty in the world...
nobody said India's record is good - but it's a picinic when compared to china's... killing millions in labor camps and for imagined "revolutions" is simply horrible - no one on face of earth killed as many as chinese have - with possible exception of the Soviets...
yes, china has done well economically, so what?... that can NOT subsitute their crimes against humanty in anyway - what they have done in past or what they are doing right now - for example - in tibet...
Pakis worship the chinese, but then they are pakis...
#528 Posted by CoolAL on June 30, 2009 4:35:03 pm
Let us see...who coined the term AfPak hyphenating Afganistan and Pakistan together? Must be somebody other than Paki Hero Barak HUSSAIN Obama...
After all, Afghanistan was supposed to be Pureland's "Strategic Depth".... wonder what happened? It is looking more and more like Pakiland is Afghanistan's "Strategic Depth" :-)
After all, Afghanistan was supposed to be Pureland's "Strategic Depth".... wonder what happened? It is looking more and more like Pakiland is Afghanistan's "Strategic Depth" :-)
#527 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 4:34:49 pm
Re: # 518 khyber
[...Tiananmen Square protests few years ago,the way they handlede it,it was necessary for the protection of great RED REVOLUTION OF CHINA...]
so chinese have "right" to kill people in name of protecting "revolution", but hindoos don't have that right... Huh?
you seem to be a senile sinophile - but that's fine... you should peddle your BS elsewhere... we are all stocked up here...
What a moron...
[...Tiananmen Square protests few years ago,the way they handlede it,it was necessary for the protection of great RED REVOLUTION OF CHINA...]
so chinese have "right" to kill people in name of protecting "revolution", but hindoos don't have that right... Huh?
you seem to be a senile sinophile - but that's fine... you should peddle your BS elsewhere... we are all stocked up here...
What a moron...
#526 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 4:23:03 pm
Riaz,
You may be favoring Obama over Bush. But you are a minority opinion in Pakistan. Only 32% of Pakistanis had confidence in Obamas fp, as opposed to 80% Indians ,who do.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions _bt/618.php?nid=&id=&pnt=618&lb=
You may be favoring Obama over Bush. But you are a minority opinion in Pakistan. Only 32% of Pakistanis had confidence in Obamas fp, as opposed to 80% Indians ,who do.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/views_on_countriesregions _bt/618.php?nid=&id=&pnt=618&lb=
#525 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:15:59 pm
Re: # 523 shankar..WELL SAID...Thats what I meant, secondly I am not anti-hindu ,I have many hindu friends,I don't live in denial and call a spade a spade,I have popular Indian friends who work for CNN,not gonna mention their names on this public forum but I like people who don't live in denial.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#524 Posted by CoolAL on June 30, 2009 4:14:41 pm
#511
Hmm let us see...the islamic hoards invaded India in 1206. Aurangzeb died in 1707.
After Aurangzeb's death the Mughal empire effectively ended. Even recorded history stops at Auranzeb's death and mentions the pathetic Bahadur Shah Zafar as the last "Emperor" whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi.
So that makes it -- 501 years in the real world. In the PakiReality where Madrassa math abounds that is equal to 1000,000,000,000 years.
Hmm let us see...the islamic hoards invaded India in 1206. Aurangzeb died in 1707.
After Aurangzeb's death the Mughal empire effectively ended. Even recorded history stops at Auranzeb's death and mentions the pathetic Bahadur Shah Zafar as the last "Emperor" whose rule was restricted to the city of Delhi.
So that makes it -- 501 years in the real world. In the PakiReality where Madrassa math abounds that is equal to 1000,000,000,000 years.
#523 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 4:04:30 pm
China has done as far better job in improving the lot of its people. Far far better than India. Without any aid or loans from the West.
Those Indians who criticize human rights records of the Chinese, conveniently forget that our record of human rights isn't great either. Practically every Indian I personally know , who has visited China has come back impressed.
Get real people! All this bs that India will be this & that in 20 yrs....NOBODY, not even the "experts" predicted the future right.
Nobody predicted the breakup of the Soviet Union, the cold war would end in a whimper. In the 80's, everyone was predicting that Japan's gdp will eventually overtake the US.
Lets accept the here & now...China has beat the pants of us, staying in denial is pure jealousy.
Those Indians who criticize human rights records of the Chinese, conveniently forget that our record of human rights isn't great either. Practically every Indian I personally know , who has visited China has come back impressed.
Get real people! All this bs that India will be this & that in 20 yrs....NOBODY, not even the "experts" predicted the future right.
Nobody predicted the breakup of the Soviet Union, the cold war would end in a whimper. In the 80's, everyone was predicting that Japan's gdp will eventually overtake the US.
Lets accept the here & now...China has beat the pants of us, staying in denial is pure jealousy.
#522 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:02:25 pm
Re: # 521... shankar ...I don't loose sleep over whatever people call me,when people don't have convincing arguments and they loose,they call names,you can call me anything you want,I am not gonna loose sleep over that.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#521 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 3:54:27 pm
Khyber,
Gee...when a couple of Pakistanis call you a "hindu in disguise", it must really burn you!
You try to hard to show your anti-hindu sentiments:)
{{INDIAN IT GUYS OF CHOWK forget that in 1947, Hindues killed millions of Muslims and still killing christens, Muslims and other minority groups in india,}}
Cool down, muslims have killed plently of hindus during partition.
I am not condoning any killings, whether its hindus killing muslims or vice versa--or the killings that are taking place in Pakistan today.
I think its in our collective DNA.... & our respective religions have done absolutely NOTHING to improve our moral caliber.
Gee...when a couple of Pakistanis call you a "hindu in disguise", it must really burn you!
You try to hard to show your anti-hindu sentiments:)
{{INDIAN IT GUYS OF CHOWK forget that in 1947, Hindues killed millions of Muslims and still killing christens, Muslims and other minority groups in india,}}
Cool down, muslims have killed plently of hindus during partition.
I am not condoning any killings, whether its hindus killing muslims or vice versa--or the killings that are taking place in Pakistan today.
I think its in our collective DNA.... & our respective religions have done absolutely NOTHING to improve our moral caliber.
#520 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 3:50:23 pm
If DELL or other big companies are are using Indians for their customer service jobs,doe not mean that will shine or develop India and it will be able to compete China.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#519 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 3:44:47 pm
Re: # 515
Singling Jinnah out is wrong. Both Gandhi and Jinnah supported the Brits against Hitler and Hirohito, which in hindsight was a good decision. Germany and Japan offered a far darker racist vision of the world than the Brits in India. Just look at the massive atrocities Germans and Japanese committed wherever they invaded and occupied. What the Brits did earlier to Indians still pales in comparison.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Singling Jinnah out is wrong. Both Gandhi and Jinnah supported the Brits against Hitler and Hirohito, which in hindsight was a good decision. Germany and Japan offered a far darker racist vision of the world than the Brits in India. Just look at the massive atrocities Germans and Japanese committed wherever they invaded and occupied. What the Brits did earlier to Indians still pales in comparison.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#518 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 3:44:15 pm
This is in response to those CHOWK'S THINK TANK INDIAN GUYS who can't take CHINA'S development in fair and constructive manner,those who are pointing that millions of Chinese were killed during revolution process,let me say this,Chairman MAO was a greatest leader on this planet who worked hard and kicked out slaves of imperialists, bourgeious and crushed chines elite,Chinese leadership had right how to handle Tiananmen Square protests few years ago,the way they handlede it,it was necessary for the protection of great RED REVOLUTION OF CHINA,on the other hand these INDIAN IT GUYS OF CHOWK forget that in 1947, Hindues killed millions of Muslims and still killing christens, Muslims and other minority groups in india,where was GANDHI'S non violence ,when his followers were killing innocent Muslims in 1947???
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#516 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 2:01:01 pm
Re: # 515
yeah, but don't mention this to sri ram mullah32...
yeah, but don't mention this to sri ram mullah32...
#515 Posted by malikrashid on June 30, 2009 1:45:17 pm
Re: # 506
Jinnah's pro-British stance supplied the British Army with Punjabi soldiers. The war consumed all resources and people died of hunger in Bengal. Subhash Chander Bose was a revolutionary hero of the Indian war of Independence against colonialism. His alliance with Nazis and his death are unfortunate events but his will for freedom is legendary.
Jinnah's pro-British stance supplied the British Army with Punjabi soldiers. The war consumed all resources and people died of hunger in Bengal. Subhash Chander Bose was a revolutionary hero of the Indian war of Independence against colonialism. His alliance with Nazis and his death are unfortunate events but his will for freedom is legendary.
#514 Posted by anil on June 30, 2009 1:08:55 pm
Re: # 425
Tahmed sahib:
"...the biggest danger to India and Pakistan is not even mutual distrust and suspicion. it is the same danger facing all humanity - that which cannot be named..."
What do you mean "that which cannot be named"?
I have seen this distrust and suspician between individuals and find it so deep rooted, as if it is in the DNA. One does not find others response or question wrong, it is just natural. Any exception are considered as mutation of the DNA.
In most cases it is unspoken, understood and accepted, in others it is very vocal on Chowk.
Tahmed sahib:
"...the biggest danger to India and Pakistan is not even mutual distrust and suspicion. it is the same danger facing all humanity - that which cannot be named..."
What do you mean "that which cannot be named"?
I have seen this distrust and suspician between individuals and find it so deep rooted, as if it is in the DNA. One does not find others response or question wrong, it is just natural. Any exception are considered as mutation of the DNA.
In most cases it is unspoken, understood and accepted, in others it is very vocal on Chowk.
#513 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 1:02:24 pm
Goldfinger,
Lol!
Proud marital races losing to starving hindus., not once, but repeatedly. Kuch to sharam karo!
Too bad wars arent fought with swords
Lol!
Proud marital races losing to starving hindus., not once, but repeatedly. Kuch to sharam karo!
Too bad wars arent fought with swords
#512 Posted by ellora on June 30, 2009 12:58:34 pm
#506:
So Bose is wrong because he didn't follow Mao Tse Tung's example ? Is this the same hero who is responsible for the deaths of 20 million of his own compatriots ? I'd imagine Bose deserves kudos for differing with such a monster.
Yes, I am well aware of the rape of Nanking. Are *you* aware of British retaliations after 1857 ? Or of Jallianwala Bagh ? And here's one you should look into - the Mau Mau revolt and how the Brits dealt with that. This was in the 1950s.
Post WWII history was written by the British-American victors. Read it with a healthy dose of scepticism. All colonial powers were scum. That is what absolute power does. Please don't follow Riaz-jee in harbouring delusions about "meray baday bhai saab" (the Chinese in his case.)
So Bose is wrong because he didn't follow Mao Tse Tung's example ? Is this the same hero who is responsible for the deaths of 20 million of his own compatriots ? I'd imagine Bose deserves kudos for differing with such a monster.
Yes, I am well aware of the rape of Nanking. Are *you* aware of British retaliations after 1857 ? Or of Jallianwala Bagh ? And here's one you should look into - the Mau Mau revolt and how the Brits dealt with that. This was in the 1950s.
Post WWII history was written by the British-American victors. Read it with a healthy dose of scepticism. All colonial powers were scum. That is what absolute power does. Please don't follow Riaz-jee in harbouring delusions about "meray baday bhai saab" (the Chinese in his case.)
#511 Posted by Goldfinger on June 30, 2009 12:57:13 pm
Re: # 509
Shankar,
While I certainly do not wish to evoke bad memories for you...but what have we been doing if not winning the past 1000 years?
Shankar,
While I certainly do not wish to evoke bad memories for you...but what have we been doing if not winning the past 1000 years?
#510 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 12:57:09 pm
Re: # 507 GF
[..Chinese drive tanks over people, eat them alive, or what?...]
Actually chinese did eat people - dead ones... during the starvation days of Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward - cannibalism was practiced across the starving country-side...
As for 1962 war - Indian soldiers fought to their stength, even with lack of proper equipment... You haven't seen chinese attack on indian territory since then, have you?...
China may be powerful can-do-no-wrong super-heroes for you pakis - but for us they are just people, who have their strengths and weaknesess... you worship chinese, we don't...
The chinese know that as well, ask them... recently they have been complaining about how india is acting superior because of our "superior political system"... yeah, that's what they think - we have "superior political system"... Ha...
[..Chinese drive tanks over people, eat them alive, or what?...]
Actually chinese did eat people - dead ones... during the starvation days of Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward - cannibalism was practiced across the starving country-side...
As for 1962 war - Indian soldiers fought to their stength, even with lack of proper equipment... You haven't seen chinese attack on indian territory since then, have you?...
China may be powerful can-do-no-wrong super-heroes for you pakis - but for us they are just people, who have their strengths and weaknesess... you worship chinese, we don't...
The chinese know that as well, ask them... recently they have been complaining about how india is acting superior because of our "superior political system"... yeah, that's what they think - we have "superior political system"... Ha...
#509 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 12:45:22 pm
Goldfinger,
You guys should win a war FIRST before putting down Indian soldiers cowards. You guys have been repeatedly kicked upside down by these same "cowards".
You guys should win a war FIRST before putting down Indian soldiers cowards. You guys have been repeatedly kicked upside down by these same "cowards".
#508 Posted by shankar on June 30, 2009 12:43:20 pm
Riaz,
{{clearly Amir and Irfan are not particularly smart analysts.}}
And you are?!!
You are the biggest spin doctor on Chowk. Anybody, foreign or domestic, that criticizes Pakistan is dismissed as biased, dumb, or part of a hindu-jewish conspiracy!
BTW, the term India shinning is giving you too much khujli. The Indian electorate threw out the BJP because they used "India Shinning" as a slogan. So stop scratching.
At least India isnt in the "top 10 failed states" list.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/090624_2009_final_data.pdf
I'm just dying to see how you spin this..
{{clearly Amir and Irfan are not particularly smart analysts.}}
And you are?!!
You are the biggest spin doctor on Chowk. Anybody, foreign or domestic, that criticizes Pakistan is dismissed as biased, dumb, or part of a hindu-jewish conspiracy!
BTW, the term India shinning is giving you too much khujli. The Indian electorate threw out the BJP because they used "India Shinning" as a slogan. So stop scratching.
At least India isnt in the "top 10 failed states" list.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/images/090624_2009_final_data.pdf
I'm just dying to see how you spin this..
#507 Posted by Goldfinger on June 30, 2009 12:32:17 pm
Re: # 456
Riaz sahib,
Speaking of India-China comparison, you might recall that once their illusions of grandeur and folly led the Indians into total annihilation. The Indians wished to fight bravely, but instead were part of a terrible rout. Do you remember the drubbing the Indians received in 1962 when they started feeling a bit too uppity for their boots...and started to indulge in a little war with the Chinese...however it soon turned into a shameful farce...the bravery of the Indian soldiers has become famous in the speed they ran away from the Chinese by just hearing the whisper "Chinese!"...it is known that just that one word was enough to induce sprints amongst Indian soldiers away from the field of battle which could create record times for sprints in the Olympic games in people otherwise too ungifted to do so in the real games...I wonder if they were doing this because they thought that the Chinese drive tanks over people, eat them alive, or what? The Chinese were flabbergasted...they didn't know what to do with the brand new equipment the Indian soldiers left behind in their wake.
Riaz sahib,
Speaking of India-China comparison, you might recall that once their illusions of grandeur and folly led the Indians into total annihilation. The Indians wished to fight bravely, but instead were part of a terrible rout. Do you remember the drubbing the Indians received in 1962 when they started feeling a bit too uppity for their boots...and started to indulge in a little war with the Chinese...however it soon turned into a shameful farce...the bravery of the Indian soldiers has become famous in the speed they ran away from the Chinese by just hearing the whisper "Chinese!"...it is known that just that one word was enough to induce sprints amongst Indian soldiers away from the field of battle which could create record times for sprints in the Olympic games in people otherwise too ungifted to do so in the real games...I wonder if they were doing this because they thought that the Chinese drive tanks over people, eat them alive, or what? The Chinese were flabbergasted...they didn't know what to do with the brand new equipment the Indian soldiers left behind in their wake.
#506 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 12:15:47 pm
ellora #504: i think i explained where i was coming from on this when i wrote "that if the japs had won, they would have treated indians the way they treated other conquered nations". There is nothing hypothetical here - it wasnt without reason that asian leaders like Mao Tse Tung, Ho Chi Minh and Soekarno, instead of following Bose's route, chose to declare a temporary truce with the colonial powers and to fight the japanese. Nor is the reason hard to find - read the Rape of Nanking (written by a chinese woman that documents japanese atrocities there), or ask Philipinos about japnaese occupation.
And even if the brits left totally due to weakness after their total victory over the Axis powers (a doubtful proposition anyway when you think about it) rather than due to the mass movement led by british-educated politicians in india - that makes Jinnah's pro-british stand all the more logical and the Congress Quit India movement all the more absurd.
What I find interesting is how such obvious realities seem to have been ignored in India and Bose is still held to be some kind of a hero rather than a fool at best and a traitor to his own people if he wasnt a total fool being used by the Japanese and Nazis.
And even if the brits left totally due to weakness after their total victory over the Axis powers (a doubtful proposition anyway when you think about it) rather than due to the mass movement led by british-educated politicians in india - that makes Jinnah's pro-british stand all the more logical and the Congress Quit India movement all the more absurd.
What I find interesting is how such obvious realities seem to have been ignored in India and Bose is still held to be some kind of a hero rather than a fool at best and a traitor to his own people if he wasnt a total fool being used by the Japanese and Nazis.
#505 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 11:59:10 am
Riaz#503:
I am sure both of them value peace and stability. Pointing to empirical reality of Pakistan benefiting from geopolitical situation does not mean they do not value peace and its value. Both of them would want to avoid confrontation with India on Kashmir, while maintaining Pakistan's claim.
I am sure both of them value peace and stability. Pointing to empirical reality of Pakistan benefiting from geopolitical situation does not mean they do not value peace and its value. Both of them would want to avoid confrontation with India on Kashmir, while maintaining Pakistan's claim.
#504 Posted by ellora on June 30, 2009 11:57:10 am
#472:
Tahmed32, I am a bit puzzled by the tone of this posting. It almost sounds like you are offended that some ungrateful Indians would have dared to resist (betray ?) the heroic British who were on a mission to... what ?.... bring peace and happiness to humankind ?
The Brits were in India for their own interests. They fought Nazis and Japanese for their own interests. And they treated Indians like sub-humans. Speculating on what the Japanese would have done had they won is an interesting but pointless exercise since we don't know the precise circumstances of this imaginary win. The reason the Brits left India is because the war beggared them, not because they suddenly saw the error of their ways.
On the other hand, they continued to act like the racist bigots they were in Africa for years afterwards.
Tahmed32, I am a bit puzzled by the tone of this posting. It almost sounds like you are offended that some ungrateful Indians would have dared to resist (betray ?) the heroic British who were on a mission to... what ?.... bring peace and happiness to humankind ?
The Brits were in India for their own interests. They fought Nazis and Japanese for their own interests. And they treated Indians like sub-humans. Speculating on what the Japanese would have done had they won is an interesting but pointless exercise since we don't know the precise circumstances of this imaginary win. The reason the Brits left India is because the war beggared them, not because they suddenly saw the error of their ways.
On the other hand, they continued to act like the racist bigots they were in Africa for years afterwards.
#503 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 11:54:22 am
Re: # 493
Dost
clearly Amir and Irfan are not particularly smart analysts.
They both fail to see the benefits of peace and stability.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Dost
clearly Amir and Irfan are not particularly smart analysts.
They both fail to see the benefits of peace and stability.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#502 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 11:51:13 am
(wheels of justice move - very, very slowly)
Many a drama at Liberhan hearings
The Liberhan Commission -- the country's longest running inquiry panel -- saw its own share of high drama during its 17-year probe into Babri Masjid demolition and once had a tough time dealing with a Bajrang Dal leader's foul language.
Will LK Advani come under fire?
Vinay Katiyar, during his deposition, used foul language and went to the extent of saying that the report of the Commission will be useless and gather dust on official shelves.
At one point of time during the hearing, even BJP stalwart L K Advani [ Images ] lost his cool and had lodged a protest with Justice Liberhan against the Commission's lawyer.
What BJP says on the Ayodhya report
On being pulled by Liberhan following Advani's protest, the lawyer had then stated that history would not forgive the judge if after the mountain of labour over all these years the commission finally produced a mouse. During the hearing, Advani said the 'saddest' day in his life was the day when the Babri Masjid was demolished.
Four years ago, the hearings of the Commission concluded but two years ago a controversy broke out with the Commission's counsel Anupam Gupta dissociating himself from it owing to personal differences with Justice Liberhan.
Centre will take needy action on Ayodhya report
The commission saw a galaxy of political leaders including two former prime ministers -- V P Singh [ Images ] and P V Narasimha Rao, two former chief ministers -- Kalyan Singh [ Images ] and Mulayam Singh Yadav [ Images ], former senior union minister Murli Manohar Joshi [ Images ] and firebrand leader Uma Bharti depose before it. And some of them were not spared of a grilling by the Commission
Several top bureaucrats and police officers had also given their testimony.
Appointed by Narasimha Rao on December 16, 1992 two weeks after the demolition to ward off criticism against his government for having failed to protect the mosque, the Commission had as its last witness Kalyan Singh who was the chief minister at that time.
Singh had evaded appearance before the commission for more than 11 years by filing a petition in Allahabad High Court after taking moral responsibility for the dead. He had appeared only after the Delhi [ Images ] High Court lifted a stay order on his deposition.
Many a drama at Liberhan hearings
The Liberhan Commission -- the country's longest running inquiry panel -- saw its own share of high drama during its 17-year probe into Babri Masjid demolition and once had a tough time dealing with a Bajrang Dal leader's foul language.
Will LK Advani come under fire?
Vinay Katiyar, during his deposition, used foul language and went to the extent of saying that the report of the Commission will be useless and gather dust on official shelves.
At one point of time during the hearing, even BJP stalwart L K Advani [ Images ] lost his cool and had lodged a protest with Justice Liberhan against the Commission's lawyer.
What BJP says on the Ayodhya report
On being pulled by Liberhan following Advani's protest, the lawyer had then stated that history would not forgive the judge if after the mountain of labour over all these years the commission finally produced a mouse. During the hearing, Advani said the 'saddest' day in his life was the day when the Babri Masjid was demolished.
Four years ago, the hearings of the Commission concluded but two years ago a controversy broke out with the Commission's counsel Anupam Gupta dissociating himself from it owing to personal differences with Justice Liberhan.
Centre will take needy action on Ayodhya report
The commission saw a galaxy of political leaders including two former prime ministers -- V P Singh [ Images ] and P V Narasimha Rao, two former chief ministers -- Kalyan Singh [ Images ] and Mulayam Singh Yadav [ Images ], former senior union minister Murli Manohar Joshi [ Images ] and firebrand leader Uma Bharti depose before it. And some of them were not spared of a grilling by the Commission
Several top bureaucrats and police officers had also given their testimony.
Appointed by Narasimha Rao on December 16, 1992 two weeks after the demolition to ward off criticism against his government for having failed to protect the mosque, the Commission had as its last witness Kalyan Singh who was the chief minister at that time.
Singh had evaded appearance before the commission for more than 11 years by filing a petition in Allahabad High Court after taking moral responsibility for the dead. He had appeared only after the Delhi [ Images ] High Court lifted a stay order on his deposition.
#501 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 11:44:04 am
#500 news for you moron. only hindu duds think they are kicking backsides when all they are doing is writing on a keyboard.
(the cout-down has now begun. the above charity response is good for your next 20 posts to me or about me. until 2010, when you get new Moron11-time Budget Approved.)
(the cout-down has now begun. the above charity response is good for your next 20 posts to me or about me. until 2010, when you get new Moron11-time Budget Approved.)
#500 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 11:39:53 am
Re: # 499 mullah32
that's what you say, everytime you get your backside kicked... your run off and sulk for a while, and then you come back for more...
that's what you say, everytime you get your backside kicked... your run off and sulk for a while, and then you come back for more...
#499 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 11:32:00 am
#498 not stupid. as you recall, i have a budgeted time for morons. and you just used up your entire quota for the year 2009.
now..its back to 1 charity post from me for every 20 posts to me or about me from you. the way it has been past several years. right, genius?? you lose again!!
now..its back to 1 charity post from me for every 20 posts to me or about me from you. the way it has been past several years. right, genius?? you lose again!!
#498 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 11:14:55 am
Re: # 496 mullah32
[...tails i win...]
Of course, you win.. my precious little mullah32, you win. you are cho chweeet...
man, you are so stupid... LOL
[...tails i win...]
Of course, you win.. my precious little mullah32, you win. you are cho chweeet...
man, you are so stupid... LOL
#497 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 11:11:54 am
Re: # 491 raiz
why does Shining India burns you so much?... do you want india to be another failed state like pakiland?... apparently pakiland in in top 10 failed states...
Let me tell you this: if any country in the subcontinent that will ever make it to big league, it's india... Sri Lanka may have a chance as well... but certainly - it ain't going to be pakiland, bdesh, nepal or afgan...
So get over it already...
why does Shining India burns you so much?... do you want india to be another failed state like pakiland?... apparently pakiland in in top 10 failed states...
Let me tell you this: if any country in the subcontinent that will ever make it to big league, it's india... Sri Lanka may have a chance as well... but certainly - it ain't going to be pakiland, bdesh, nepal or afgan...
So get over it already...
#496 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 11:11:18 am
busy-moron11 sahib#495 in that case i came out ahead in the ..er..discussion...below. heads you lose, tails i win.
#495 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 11:07:17 am
Re: # 494 sri ram mullah32
waste your time?...dude, you practically live in chowk - apparently you hold some kind of chowk record - highest number of posts or something... don't you?...
waste your time?...dude, you practically live in chowk - apparently you hold some kind of chowk record - highest number of posts or something... don't you?...
#494 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 10:59:35 am
moron11 sahib#488 certainly wastes your time and my time on chowk.
#493 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 10:26:19 am
Riaz#491:
"This is the case in spite of the fact that Pakistan is currently a war-torn nation with serious problems of political instability."
I think that in the context of 'bhuke', being war-torn has not necessarily been a disadvantage for Pakistan. As Ayaz Amir or Irfan Hussain once said, Pakistan's salvation is the 'manna' from heaven. And the war has only increased that 'manna'.
"This is the case in spite of the fact that Pakistan is currently a war-torn nation with serious problems of political instability."
I think that in the context of 'bhuke', being war-torn has not necessarily been a disadvantage for Pakistan. As Ayaz Amir or Irfan Hussain once said, Pakistan's salvation is the 'manna' from heaven. And the war has only increased that 'manna'.
#492 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 10:21:31 am
Riaz sahib: True on some (not all) innocent people suffering at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. But it is also true - as I mentioned - about Bush visiting a mosque after 9/11, speaking out on behalf of muslims at a State of the Union message. Also, I recall meeting at least one man who was on his way to a reception for muslim reps from arond the country.
As for Iraq - I think while the jury is to some extent out, it is quite clear that the hullaballoo about "permanent occupation" and about this being a grab for "Arab Oil" that was raised at the time of the invasion has already proved to be bogus.
Furthermore, if Iraq continues down the democratic path - as will be demonstrated if continued elections continue to be held in the years and decades following the US departure - then clearly Bush will be seen by history as having made a major contribution by making Iraq the first Arab country to move out of the trap of kingships/dictatorships and give power to back to its rightful owners, namely the people of Iraq. If he fails - then at least he tried.
If you truly believe in power to the people, therefore (and I know you have grave doubts on this account even for Pakistan), then by any honest measure the Iraq invasion has struck a sound blow against autocracy and on behalf of government of, by and for the people.
As for Iraq - I think while the jury is to some extent out, it is quite clear that the hullaballoo about "permanent occupation" and about this being a grab for "Arab Oil" that was raised at the time of the invasion has already proved to be bogus.
Furthermore, if Iraq continues down the democratic path - as will be demonstrated if continued elections continue to be held in the years and decades following the US departure - then clearly Bush will be seen by history as having made a major contribution by making Iraq the first Arab country to move out of the trap of kingships/dictatorships and give power to back to its rightful owners, namely the people of Iraq. If he fails - then at least he tried.
If you truly believe in power to the people, therefore (and I know you have grave doubts on this account even for Pakistan), then by any honest measure the Iraq invasion has struck a sound blow against autocracy and on behalf of government of, by and for the people.
#491 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 10:13:49 am
Re: # 489
Dost, You are clearly a far more objective observer and careful analyst than most on Chowk. It's refreshing to see your acknowledgment about both India and Pakistan being "bhuke", although I still believe Indians are more "bhuke" than Pakistanis based on all of the data from international agencies. This is the case in spite of the fact that Pakistan is currently a war-torn nation with serious problems of political instability.
The other difference is that most Pakistanis (like Malik) acknowledge and vociferously talk about Pakistan's problems whereas most Indians keep talking about "BRIC" and "Shining India" endlessly.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Dost, You are clearly a far more objective observer and careful analyst than most on Chowk. It's refreshing to see your acknowledgment about both India and Pakistan being "bhuke", although I still believe Indians are more "bhuke" than Pakistanis based on all of the data from international agencies. This is the case in spite of the fact that Pakistan is currently a war-torn nation with serious problems of political instability.
The other difference is that most Pakistanis (like Malik) acknowledge and vociferously talk about Pakistan's problems whereas most Indians keep talking about "BRIC" and "Shining India" endlessly.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#490 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 10:05:05 am
Re: # 484
tahmed: How about Bush's actions? Don't actions speak louder than words? Are you already forgetting about the atrocities in Guantanamos and Abu Ghraibs that eroded US moral authority to speak for human rights? Are you forgetting the war of choice in Iraq? I think there is plenty of evidence to show that Bush was no friend of the Muslim world. Are you forgetting his active support of Israel during Gaza and Lebanon invasions where Israel committed serious war crimes?
You know Israel and India and others committed atrocities under the convenient cover of "war on terror".
With some of the early actions, Obama is clearly distancing himself from Bush but the jury is still out on his administration.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
tahmed: How about Bush's actions? Don't actions speak louder than words? Are you already forgetting about the atrocities in Guantanamos and Abu Ghraibs that eroded US moral authority to speak for human rights? Are you forgetting the war of choice in Iraq? I think there is plenty of evidence to show that Bush was no friend of the Muslim world. Are you forgetting his active support of Israel during Gaza and Lebanon invasions where Israel committed serious war crimes?
You know Israel and India and others committed atrocities under the convenient cover of "war on terror".
With some of the early actions, Obama is clearly distancing himself from Bush but the jury is still out on his administration.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#489 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 10:04:24 am
malik saab#487:
That expression loses all its "charm" when translated from the punjabi original, "bukhe ne bukhe di layee, donaaN nooN ghush pai gayee".
That expression loses all its "charm" when translated from the punjabi original, "bukhe ne bukhe di layee, donaaN nooN ghush pai gayee".
#488 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 10:02:03 am
Re: # 486 sri ram mullah32
Just to piss you off... it works everytime... LOL
Just to piss you off... it works everytime... LOL
#487 Posted by malikrashid on June 30, 2009 9:57:19 am
In Karachi, they have an expression: Two starving fellows screwed each other. They both fainted.
Cock-fight, dog-fight or gladiator is no match for this voluntary howling and growling on behalf of their imagined territories.
Indeed, internet is fun, in a sad sickening way.
Cock-fight, dog-fight or gladiator is no match for this voluntary howling and growling on behalf of their imagined territories.
Indeed, internet is fun, in a sad sickening way.
#486 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 9:39:12 am
sri ram moron11 #483: and why do you write LOL while emitting putrid smoke? do you really laugh and emit smoke at the same time? if so, then i would presribe the blue pills.
#485 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 9:37:43 am
moron11: i see you have just made yet another desperate attempt to conflate your miserable, spiteful indian self by stating what a US president said with what overclever little banias like to think of themselves. good try.
#484 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 9:34:32 am
#482 Riaz sahib: "outward appearances" are good enough for me. I leave it to God and the Shadow to figure out "what evil lurks in the hearts of men".
#483 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 9:29:20 am
Re: # 482 raiz
[.. shift taking place in US policy toward the Muslim world...]
Yeah, it's called knife-in-armpit policy - also known as speak-softly-carry-big-stick... LOL
[.. shift taking place in US policy toward the Muslim world...]
Yeah, it's called knife-in-armpit policy - also known as speak-softly-carry-big-stick... LOL
#482 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 9:18:42 am
Re: # 478
tahmed, Bush, as a right-wing, born-again Evangelical Christian, was no friend of Muslims but he had to maintain the outward appearances of friendship with the Muslim world for obvious reasons.
It now appears that there is a clear shift taking place in US policy toward the Muslim world to reach out and change the battered US image abroad. I think it's a more sensible policy that Obama is pursuing and it is in the best interest of the United States.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
tahmed, Bush, as a right-wing, born-again Evangelical Christian, was no friend of Muslims but he had to maintain the outward appearances of friendship with the Muslim world for obvious reasons.
It now appears that there is a clear shift taking place in US policy toward the Muslim world to reach out and change the battered US image abroad. I think it's a more sensible policy that Obama is pursuing and it is in the best interest of the United States.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#481 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 9:17:22 am
#480 dud-man: the drones are serving as the eyes of the pakistan army. they are targetting rats the pakistani nation is fighting. and the drones are thus not just sending mullah rat asses to hell, they are saving lives of pakistani soldiers and civilians. and that is why the Pakistan government just signed an agreement whereby the drones will serve actively in aid of Pakistan forces ferreting out rats in waziristan.
but dont let the above sink in - it might wake you up from your hindu fantasyland.
but dont let the above sink in - it might wake you up from your hindu fantasyland.
#480 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 9:10:12 am
Re: # 478 sri ram mullah32
yep and the drone attacks on pakiland was just his way of saying you pakis are very "decent people"... Ha ha...
yep and the drone attacks on pakiland was just his way of saying you pakis are very "decent people"... Ha ha...
#479 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 9:07:51 am
Re: # 476
I am sure he will - when he becomes the Prime MInister next time... LOL
I am sure he will - when he becomes the Prime MInister next time... LOL
#478 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 9:07:44 am
#471 riaz sahib: even during the Bush era - as you yourself pointed out I think - Bush made it a point to visit a muslim mosque after 9/11. Also, you may recall, in his State of the Union speech after 9/11, Bush spoke out on behalf of muslims as "decent people".
trouble with these hindu morons is they think if you repeat bs often enough it will become a fact.
trouble with these hindu morons is they think if you repeat bs often enough it will become a fact.
#477 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 9:06:13 am
Re: # 472 sri ram mullah32
yep Jinnah won pakiland and then handed it over to allah-army and mullah... good for you...
Jinnah Jindabad...
yep Jinnah won pakiland and then handed it over to allah-army and mullah... good for you...
Jinnah Jindabad...
#476 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 9:03:58 am
#473 moron11: sure anti-musla feeling is on the upswing in the US. after all, you say so, so it must be true. in fact, i hear Modi is being considered as guest speaker for the next joint session of the Congress (soon as the US government takes him off the stay-out-of-the-US criminal list).
#475 Posted by nb on June 30, 2009 9:02:25 am
Barack Obama has been co opted into Islam whether he likes it or not. It doesn't appear to be a matter of choice!
Aatish Taseer writes about this phenomenon; that no one in the Islamic world would allow him not to be a Muslim, his father being Muslim made him one too, regardless of how he was brought up and his own beliefs. DNA makes you Muslim, apparently?
Aatish Taseer writes about this phenomenon; that no one in the Islamic world would allow him not to be a Muslim, his father being Muslim made him one too, regardless of how he was brought up and his own beliefs. DNA makes you Muslim, apparently?
#474 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 9:02:21 am
Re: # 471 raiz
It's not us... it's you... you muslims are responsible for the situation you find yourselves in... Obama can not rescue you from that...
Don't blame hanoods and yahoos for your own stupidity... US-Israel-India nexus will continue no matter what...
It's not us... it's you... you muslims are responsible for the situation you find yourselves in... Obama can not rescue you from that...
Don't blame hanoods and yahoos for your own stupidity... US-Israel-India nexus will continue no matter what...
#473 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 8:58:05 am
Re: # 468 sri ram mullah32
Yes he is...and good for us all... but only after he could successfully squash the malicious rumors that he is muslim...
his efforts notwithstanding - anti-muslim feelings in US is not less... in fact, it's on up-swing... I don't think even Obama can do much about that...
Yes he is...and good for us all... but only after he could successfully squash the malicious rumors that he is muslim...
his efforts notwithstanding - anti-muslim feelings in US is not less... in fact, it's on up-swing... I don't think even Obama can do much about that...
#472 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:57:10 am
#467 i can only go by what i see. and what i saw was hindus emitting smoke on chowk when i reminded them that what was simple common sense. namely, that if the japs had won, they would have treated indians the way they treated other conquered nations. and if the brits won - well, we all know what happened.
Jinnah no doubt had the above figured out, and stayed away from the japanese/nazi rats. otoh, the hindu duds thought it was a great time to kick the brits with the Quit India movement when the brits alread had their backs to the wall fighting the nazis and japs. and it doesnt require an einstein to figure out that no amount of ram-ram-shanti after that would have helped made the brits realize who stood by them in their time of need and who kicked them in the teeth when they thought the japs were the "rising sun".
no wonder jinnah ran circles around the over-clever hindu and won us Pakistan.
Jinnah no doubt had the above figured out, and stayed away from the japanese/nazi rats. otoh, the hindu duds thought it was a great time to kick the brits with the Quit India movement when the brits alread had their backs to the wall fighting the nazis and japs. and it doesnt require an einstein to figure out that no amount of ram-ram-shanti after that would have helped made the brits realize who stood by them in their time of need and who kicked them in the teeth when they thought the japs were the "rising sun".
no wonder jinnah ran circles around the over-clever hindu and won us Pakistan.
#471 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 8:55:39 am
Re: # 468
tahmed, I think the new reality of the new US president has not sunk in yet for many of the bigoted Indian Chowkies. They are still living in the Bush era, hoping that the anti-Muslim alliance they struck with US and Israel will remain intact.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
tahmed, I think the new reality of the new US president has not sunk in yet for many of the bigoted Indian Chowkies. They are still living in the Bush era, hoping that the anti-Muslim alliance they struck with US and Israel will remain intact.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#469 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:48:41 am
Moron11: and yet...Barak HUSSAIN Obama is the President of the United States. And speaks appreciatively and about Islam and Muslims that has Sri Rams emitting more than their standard rate of burnt smoke.
#468 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:48:41 am
Moron11: and yet...Barak HUSSAIN Obama is the President of the United States. And speaks appreciatively and about Islam and Muslims that has Sri Rams emitting more than their standard rate of burnt smoke.
#467 Posted by ellora on June 30, 2009 8:42:44 am
And what I found from my earlier discussion was basically hindus responding
And that makes Bose a Hindu hero ? Hmmm.... by that logic, Hu Jintao must be a mard-e-momeen hero, going by these interacts... LOL.
And that makes Bose a Hindu hero ? Hmmm.... by that logic, Hu Jintao must be a mard-e-momeen hero, going by these interacts... LOL.
#466 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 8:41:25 am
Re: # 464 sri ram mullah32
that was one example - I don't think that dude was alone... we have seen the sampling of anti-muslim feeling during obama campaign, didn't we?... even obama made sure he removed hijabis from his photo-op..
and oh, indian-us are not same same - now you can calm down...
that was one example - I don't think that dude was alone... we have seen the sampling of anti-muslim feeling during obama campaign, didn't we?... even obama made sure he removed hijabis from his photo-op..
and oh, indian-us are not same same - now you can calm down...
#465 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 8:36:28 am
Re: # 463 sri ram mullah32
Bose is an indian hero, no ifs and buts... and will remain so... Now you can go ahead and shout to the world about nazi-qiusling or whatver - see if anyone cares...
It's like YLH going blue on face crying about gandhi casteist racist and what not... When are you pakis going to learn... PakiWorld(thanks arjun) ain't the real world...
Bose is an indian hero, no ifs and buts... and will remain so... Now you can go ahead and shout to the world about nazi-qiusling or whatver - see if anyone cares...
It's like YLH going blue on face crying about gandhi casteist racist and what not... When are you pakis going to learn... PakiWorld(thanks arjun) ain't the real world...
#464 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:33:41 am
Moron11: of course, india-US same-same. India shining. india-US both hate paki, both hate musla. india-man even speakee like US marine man. he say US slang like "paki put lipstick on pig" just like Joe Arjun-US-taxpayer and Moron11-US-golf-player-with-marine-buddy.
Happy?
Happy?
#463 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 8:29:27 am
dm sahib #460 he was not doubt all of what you say. indeed, when pakistan was formed there were a couple of officers in the newly formed Pakistan army who were part of the treacherous so-called Indian National Army themselves.
However, these officers were treated as potential traitors by other Pakistan army officers and kept away from operations during the 47-48 kashmir war (see Nawaz's "Crossed Swords: A history of the Pakistan army" for more on this).
After that, Bose and the Indian National Army have been basically non-entities in Pakistan. I grew up with WWII veterans in Pakistan - and rest assured they knew who their friends and enemies were.
And what I found from my earlier discussion was basically hindus responding - so please dont make up this story of my finding in my previous discussion about about hindu, muslim, sikh, eesayee sab ka bose jee ko salaam story. As I said, candor is better than make-believe and innuendoes.
However, these officers were treated as potential traitors by other Pakistan army officers and kept away from operations during the 47-48 kashmir war (see Nawaz's "Crossed Swords: A history of the Pakistan army" for more on this).
After that, Bose and the Indian National Army have been basically non-entities in Pakistan. I grew up with WWII veterans in Pakistan - and rest assured they knew who their friends and enemies were.
And what I found from my earlier discussion was basically hindus responding - so please dont make up this story of my finding in my previous discussion about about hindu, muslim, sikh, eesayee sab ka bose jee ko salaam story. As I said, candor is better than make-believe and innuendoes.
#462 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 8:20:06 am
Re: # 461 raiz
there will be recessions, setbacks - all part of the regular economic cycle... you can burn in jealousy - but BRIC is here to stay, BRIC is the future...
there will be recessions, setbacks - all part of the regular economic cycle... you can burn in jealousy - but BRIC is here to stay, BRIC is the future...
#461 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 8:12:08 am
Re: # 457
Who made India part of BRIC? Where did it come from? Do you think Goldman Sachs marketing department is the ultimate arbiter of truth about emerging powers?
Do you know that Russia, a member of BRIC, is in deep recession? If it wasn't for its oil, Russia would depend on the mercy of strangers now, as it did in the 90s? Do you know how different Brazil is from India? Unlike India, Brazil not a hungry, malnourished country. It not only feeds its population well but it's a major exporter of food? Do you know how far behind India is in something as basic as feeding its population?
Just creating an acronym from the initials for four disparate nations does not make them comparable.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Who made India part of BRIC? Where did it come from? Do you think Goldman Sachs marketing department is the ultimate arbiter of truth about emerging powers?
Do you know that Russia, a member of BRIC, is in deep recession? If it wasn't for its oil, Russia would depend on the mercy of strangers now, as it did in the 90s? Do you know how different Brazil is from India? Unlike India, Brazil not a hungry, malnourished country. It not only feeds its population well but it's a major exporter of food? Do you know how far behind India is in something as basic as feeding its population?
Just creating an acronym from the initials for four disparate nations does not make them comparable.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#460 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 8:09:37 am
tahmed32#450:
I think that your calling Bose a Hindu hero is based on your lack of knowledge about his background. He was the leader of the Marxist wing of the Congress and was forced to resign from the Presidency of the Party by Gandhi in 1938 as he was considered too radical, more socialist than the socialist Nehru. His Party still exists in India and is called All India Forward Block, but is active only in West Bengal where it is part of the Communist block. As you found out during an earlier discussion, Bose is an Indian hero in the true sense, he would unite Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Punjabis, Bengalis, Keralites, Communists, Sanghis, Congressis. And from the occasional mention of him in Pakistani newspapers, he is admired even by those Pakistanis who knew about him, which would be people of my age and older.
I think that your calling Bose a Hindu hero is based on your lack of knowledge about his background. He was the leader of the Marxist wing of the Congress and was forced to resign from the Presidency of the Party by Gandhi in 1938 as he was considered too radical, more socialist than the socialist Nehru. His Party still exists in India and is called All India Forward Block, but is active only in West Bengal where it is part of the Communist block. As you found out during an earlier discussion, Bose is an Indian hero in the true sense, he would unite Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Punjabis, Bengalis, Keralites, Communists, Sanghis, Congressis. And from the occasional mention of him in Pakistani newspapers, he is admired even by those Pakistanis who knew about him, which would be people of my age and older.
#459 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 8:07:13 am
Re: # 455 sri ram mullah32
speaking of golfing buddies - last week I happend to have a conversation with a golf buddy, a vietnam veteran... you should hear what he has to say about moslems... LOL
speaking of golfing buddies - last week I happend to have a conversation with a golf buddy, a vietnam veteran... you should hear what he has to say about moslems... LOL
#457 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 8:02:08 am
Re: # 452 raiz
Shining India is still part of BRIC - the rising economies of the world... The Jealousy is all yours...
china is ahead now, but time will tell where it takes... Challenges for chinese are enormous, the chinese themselves know it better...
Read more on chinese 'miracle' and stop being such a idiotic unpaid cheer-leader for chinese... LOL
Shining India is still part of BRIC - the rising economies of the world... The Jealousy is all yours...
china is ahead now, but time will tell where it takes... Challenges for chinese are enormous, the chinese themselves know it better...
Read more on chinese 'miracle' and stop being such a idiotic unpaid cheer-leader for chinese... LOL
#456 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 7:56:38 am
Re: # 405
I think it's generous to consider India a Pinto...it's more like a donkey cart pulled by an emaciated donkey.
I'd say Pakistan is more liker a Pinto in providing food security to its people and China is definitely a Ferrari.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I think it's generous to consider India a Pinto...it's more like a donkey cart pulled by an emaciated donkey.
I'd say Pakistan is more liker a Pinto in providing food security to its people and China is definitely a Ferrari.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#455 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 7:53:46 am
dost mittar sahib: it is OK sir. Moron11 and Mullah32 are golfing buddies in real life. Or would be if they werent wasting their time on the internet.
#454 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 7:52:49 am
Thanks Moron11. You have already spilled the beans on Dost Sahib in #444. No amount of assurances that the Quisling wannabe treacherous rat Bose is not a "hero" just to the Sri Ram Morons of India can undo what you demonstrated in #444. Actions speak louder than words.
#453 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 7:50:36 am
mohar11#451:
What do you achieve by such statements? Would you make such statements if it were not for the anonymity of cyberspace?
What do you achieve by such statements? Would you make such statements if it were not for the anonymity of cyberspace?
#452 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 7:48:36 am
It is clear that I have touched a very raw nerve of the "India Shining" hordes on Chowk by praising the tremendous economic success the Chinese have achieved through rapid industrialization. What specially irks them is the fact that their own nation has failed miserably in providing even the basic food security for its teeming millions who live in deep poverty and squalor.
Contrast Indians response with that the Europeans and the Americans. In spite of their deep ideological disagreements, the Westerners and the UN have developed great respect for what the Chinese have achieved in a relatively short time where their own favorite democracy India has let them down.
My advice to the friendly bigots from India is to see and acknowledge the same reality others have and draw inspiration from the Chinese to do better for themselves. The fires of jealousy will not help. You will be consumed by such fires.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Contrast Indians response with that the Europeans and the Americans. In spite of their deep ideological disagreements, the Westerners and the UN have developed great respect for what the Chinese have achieved in a relatively short time where their own favorite democracy India has let them down.
My advice to the friendly bigots from India is to see and acknowledge the same reality others have and draw inspiration from the Chinese to do better for themselves. The fires of jealousy will not help. You will be consumed by such fires.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#451 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 7:46:58 am
Re: # 450 sri ram mullah32
Bose will remain a indian hero - hero to hindoos, moslems, sikhs who served proudly for him in their fight against the british occupiers... Sure, he made a deal with the devil for this - he did what he had to do...
Anycase - you worship and child molester and a mass murderer name Mohamand, so what the heck are you acting so high and mighty about this... Jeez... LOL
Bose will remain a indian hero - hero to hindoos, moslems, sikhs who served proudly for him in their fight against the british occupiers... Sure, he made a deal with the devil for this - he did what he had to do...
Anycase - you worship and child molester and a mass murderer name Mohamand, so what the heck are you acting so high and mighty about this... Jeez... LOL
#450 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 7:22:55 am
dost mittar sahib: just calling me delusional without being able to refute the evidence I presented in #445 (complete with an illustration conveniently followed by in #444 which was posted at the same time) does not refute what i said about Bose being a hindu hero. I am well aware of the Khudai Khidmatgars who helped this turkey run off an join his Nazi handlers - but the KK were anti-Pakistan to begin with and lost wind once Pakistan was formed.
Just as ignoring the facts I presented yesterday on Jinnah going by the rules of what you call "Islamic Law" (i.e. mullah bs) does not refute what i said.
and please dont bother to remind me that by "delusional" you did not refer to me specifically - like i said yesterday, these double negatives and misleading examples dont help. i look forward to seeing more of the candor you displayed earlier on in the board.
Just as ignoring the facts I presented yesterday on Jinnah going by the rules of what you call "Islamic Law" (i.e. mullah bs) does not refute what i said.
and please dont bother to remind me that by "delusional" you did not refer to me specifically - like i said yesterday, these double negatives and misleading examples dont help. i look forward to seeing more of the candor you displayed earlier on in the board.
#449 Posted by pmishra2 on June 30, 2009 6:43:09 am
It would be an interesting study for psychologists and other mental health professionals to analyze the thinking of folks like KHYBER and RHaq. Some characteristics are -
1) deep inferiority complex - unawareness of their own cultural strengths and history
2) obsession with "powerful" figures - support for mulitary dictators and applause for the most authoritarian and brutal regimes.
3) Supremacist thinking and self-hatred - as manifested in unbalanced use of indian (free media!) press articles describing indian problems, belief that hindu/indian culture is inherently inferior and flawed.
I hope this represents the past for pakis. As some folks have noted, this actually represents a strain of political thinking that goes back thru the islamofascist iqbal all the way to the hatemonger Shah Wahiullah.
Indians and pakistanis actually share a lot of strengths. These include strong family systems, ability to compete and learn in many different contexts, tolerance for diversity and multiple cultures, a long history of trade and enterprise. These are the strengths out of which to build a shared south asian future.
Not islamo-supremacist ideologies and blind worship of violent authoritarian regimes. Hitler was also widely admired in the 30s for being efficient and removing poverty and so on. We all know how that ended...
1) deep inferiority complex - unawareness of their own cultural strengths and history
2) obsession with "powerful" figures - support for mulitary dictators and applause for the most authoritarian and brutal regimes.
3) Supremacist thinking and self-hatred - as manifested in unbalanced use of indian (free media!) press articles describing indian problems, belief that hindu/indian culture is inherently inferior and flawed.
I hope this represents the past for pakis. As some folks have noted, this actually represents a strain of political thinking that goes back thru the islamofascist iqbal all the way to the hatemonger Shah Wahiullah.
Indians and pakistanis actually share a lot of strengths. These include strong family systems, ability to compete and learn in many different contexts, tolerance for diversity and multiple cultures, a long history of trade and enterprise. These are the strengths out of which to build a shared south asian future.
Not islamo-supremacist ideologies and blind worship of violent authoritarian regimes. Hitler was also widely admired in the 30s for being efficient and removing poverty and so on. We all know how that ended...
#448 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 6:31:27 am
Re: # 447 DM
Indian Hero, Hindu Hero - what's the difference? Not to pakis... And like you said - even the name "Azad Hind Fauj" may be in urdooo, but that's just a hindoo conspiracy... LOL
Indian Hero, Hindu Hero - what's the difference? Not to pakis... And like you said - even the name "Azad Hind Fauj" may be in urdooo, but that's just a hindoo conspiracy... LOL
#447 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 6:15:03 am
mohar#444:
I was being sarcastic. For Indians Bose was an Indian hero and for the British, he was an Indian villain, but I had never heard of Bose being described as a Hindu hero until today. When he asked for volunteers for his India Legion, all Indian soldiers without exception - Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs - volunteered. I believe that though a Bengali, he used Urdu as a language of communication. One of his three generals was General Shahnawaz Khan.
Next, some delusional Pakistani will say that the name of Bose's army was Swatantra Hindu Sena and not Azad Hind Fauj.
I was being sarcastic. For Indians Bose was an Indian hero and for the British, he was an Indian villain, but I had never heard of Bose being described as a Hindu hero until today. When he asked for volunteers for his India Legion, all Indian soldiers without exception - Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs - volunteered. I believe that though a Bengali, he used Urdu as a language of communication. One of his three generals was General Shahnawaz Khan.
Next, some delusional Pakistani will say that the name of Bose's army was Swatantra Hindu Sena and not Azad Hind Fauj.
#446 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 6:05:05 am
and moron11 just illustrated my point in #444 below. thus proving that God created morons for a reason too.
#445 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 6:04:10 am
#442 dost mittar: you mean those were japanese on chowk who got really upset when i mentioned that Bose would have been a Japanese Quisling if he had succeeded in his aims?
#444 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 6:02:40 am
Re: # 442 DM
Didn't prophet Mo, pubh made temporary alliances with unsavory characters to further his own goal?... SO did Bose... So why can't Bose be a simple hero - while Mo is a big-time prophet - for following exact same tactics?
Didn't prophet Mo, pubh made temporary alliances with unsavory characters to further his own goal?... SO did Bose... So why can't Bose be a simple hero - while Mo is a big-time prophet - for following exact same tactics?
#443 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 5:48:26 am
yes - the recent economic "miracle" of china is something to admire and appreciate, but holding up chinese as epitome of human rights is just plain stupid... chinese would kill and brutalize their own at the drop of a hat... in past, that used to be in name of "revolutions"... now it's in name of "stability"...
They rolled tanks over the bodies students lined up on streets, for crying out loud... I mean, jeez pakis - get a perspective... you can't be that stupid...
They rolled tanks over the bodies students lined up on streets, for crying out loud... I mean, jeez pakis - get a perspective... you can't be that stupid...
#442 Posted by dost_mittar on June 30, 2009 5:41:09 am
tahmed#400:
"But then..the hindu "hero" Bose was a chamcha of the Hitler/Japanese regime too."
Bose, a Hindu hero? Surprises never end at chowk.
"But then..the hindu "hero" Bose was a chamcha of the Hitler/Japanese regime too."
Bose, a Hindu hero? Surprises never end at chowk.
#441 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 5:36:55 am
Re: # 440 khyber
Like I said - as a comparison, shining bhindia does not even come close to pakis or chinese do to your own citizens...you people are way ahead of the killing game...
so you righteous chest-beating is way of out of place...
Like I said - as a comparison, shining bhindia does not even come close to pakis or chinese do to your own citizens...you people are way ahead of the killing game...
so you righteous chest-beating is way of out of place...
#440 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 5:27:23 am
Re: # 438..whats about in shining india , where they kill muslims,kill christens,sikhs,raped muslim and christen girls,is it ok????
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#439 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 5:24:30 am
I think Indians love to have a car accident in States,so they can sue and then buy motel or grocery store,this Indian couple in Ohio sued their son's school because he ate burger,parents go to the court and claim that their son was forced to eat beef,after investigations and running servileness tapes court showed parents that their son was standing in line and did pay for the food,case was dismissed...haha...just funny i think....
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#438 Posted by mohar11 on June 30, 2009 5:23:05 am
Pakis, pakis - you can't be that stupid... I know you love to suckle at the chinese t888ts, but chinese kill their fellow citizens like its no one's business...
Cultural revolution killed 20 million people, with starvation... Millions have been brutalized and murdered in numerous labor camps, in name "Great Leap Forward"....
Tiananmen square, they killed thousands of their students just for asking more freedom... tibetans are routinely massacred with abandon... so are uighur muslims... there is a whole movement of underground churches in china.... so are the devotees of Falun Gong...
Of course, nobody even comes close to you pakis when it comes to killing own citizens... but chinese are way up their in the scale... much more than what india may have done...
This is all recorded and recent history of chinese brutality... You pakis can't be that stupid...
Cultural revolution killed 20 million people, with starvation... Millions have been brutalized and murdered in numerous labor camps, in name "Great Leap Forward"....
Tiananmen square, they killed thousands of their students just for asking more freedom... tibetans are routinely massacred with abandon... so are uighur muslims... there is a whole movement of underground churches in china.... so are the devotees of Falun Gong...
Of course, nobody even comes close to you pakis when it comes to killing own citizens... but chinese are way up their in the scale... much more than what india may have done...
This is all recorded and recent history of chinese brutality... You pakis can't be that stupid...
#437 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:35:58 am
Re: # 435what do u think about millions of Indians living on streets,homeless and poor, of course India is ahead of china in poverty, discrimination,corruption.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#436 Posted by harish_hyd on June 30, 2009 4:27:24 am
tahmed32 sahib: Here's one from my side: Pakis when at a disadvantage vis-a-vis India should still stick to being Pakis and not pretend as if they're Chinese.
#435 Posted by Dash_Dot on June 30, 2009 4:24:13 am
Re: # 434 very true, very true. they also do the same with people who are not officials and asking for money - esp from foreigners. In reality beggary in Beijing has increased a lot, and officials turn a blind eye often (till the beggars ask for money from foreigners). This is true in most metropolitan cities (in rural china every thing is damnably poor and equal).
You need to look beyond the popular image and propaganda spewed out.
You need to look beyond the popular image and propaganda spewed out.
#434 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:12:03 am
In china they shoot corrupt officials,in India they elect corrupt officials to Govt posts,thats the big difference between Great China and poor India.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#433 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 4:09:35 am
China has greatly alleviated the poverty thanks to the robust economic development in the past 30 years. China did not suffer too much from global banking crisis thanks to sufficient foreign exchange reserves and fiscal surplus. China makes great contributions to global economic development by maintaining fast growth at this critical moment when world economy is off the path of solid growth. On the other hand India is not active ion world affairs as china is.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#432 Posted by KHYBER on June 30, 2009 3:57:52 am
I never heard if any Chinese are homeless and sleeping on streets as there are millions of Indians who are homeless and sleep and live on streets,there is shining CHINA and DARK India.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#431 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 3:34:33 am
harish: here is a radical idea: you dont have to be chinese to appreciate China.
#430 Posted by harish_hyd on June 30, 2009 3:23:14 am
#423 by RiazHaq
So, fundamentally, Chinese are doing a better job of looking after their people than the Indians are doing.
Sure, have you met any Uighur Muslim? If no, please do come to my city and I will introduce you to a few; they will punch you in the face if you ever dared to say anything even close to what you've said here.
But then, why are you being China's advocate? As I said before, you talk as if if you weren't Paki, you would be Chinese..LOL!
So, fundamentally, Chinese are doing a better job of looking after their people than the Indians are doing.
Sure, have you met any Uighur Muslim? If no, please do come to my city and I will introduce you to a few; they will punch you in the face if you ever dared to say anything even close to what you've said here.
But then, why are you being China's advocate? As I said before, you talk as if if you weren't Paki, you would be Chinese..LOL!
#429 Posted by boowhoo on June 30, 2009 1:58:26 am
saab tahmed32 sahib, you fall for it every time, even before the Indians fall for the trick :D
Saab, every time, you do without fail :D
Saab, every time, you do without fail :D
#428 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 1:42:09 am
whoobahoo: you indians fall for the pakistani trick everytime.
#427 Posted by boowhoo on June 30, 2009 1:24:16 am
Re: # 423 Riaz sahib, you are a true musalmaan. the man with imaan running in every ml of blood. Saab, you are putting up a valiant fight. All of us are proud of you and are all behind you in this. Pakistan is improving only because of your work saab!
thank you very much.
We all appreciate what you are doing.
from todays dailytimes http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009�6\30\story_30-6-2009_pg3_1
An American journal has compiled a list of 177 states with a descending order of viability in the modern world; and Pakistan is in the top ten “failed states”. There is only a marginal improvement in status as the last time the list appeared Pakistan was 9th on it. The other “top-notchers” are: Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Central African Republic and Guinea. The journal ranks states on the basis of the following factors: demographic pressure, refugees/internally displaced persons (IDPs), group grievance, uneven development, economic decline, de-legitimisation of the state, public service, human rights, factionalised elites and external intervention.
thank you very much.
We all appreciate what you are doing.
from todays dailytimes http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009�6\30\story_30-6-2009_pg3_1
An American journal has compiled a list of 177 states with a descending order of viability in the modern world; and Pakistan is in the top ten “failed states”. There is only a marginal improvement in status as the last time the list appeared Pakistan was 9th on it. The other “top-notchers” are: Somalia, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Chad, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Afghanistan, the Central African Republic and Guinea. The journal ranks states on the basis of the following factors: demographic pressure, refugees/internally displaced persons (IDPs), group grievance, uneven development, economic decline, de-legitimisation of the state, public service, human rights, factionalised elites and external intervention.
#426 Posted by iron_mask on June 30, 2009 1:13:26 am
Re: # 424 nb ignore the poor guy.....he is in lala land and he sees horrible hindoos everywhere....just another nut-job who has lucked it out
#425 Posted by tahmed32 on June 30, 2009 12:54:13 am
anil sahib #408 the biggest danger to India and Pakistan is not even mutual distrust and suspicion. it is the same danger facing all humanity - that which cannot be named...
#424 Posted by nb on June 30, 2009 12:45:22 am
Riaz Haq, do you have any idea of what actually happened with Chand and Fiza, before you make this too an anti-Muslim issue? Your ignorance is staggering.
#423 Posted by RiazHaq on June 30, 2009 12:09:35 am
Re: # 420
In China, the government does not organize pogroms of Muslims or Christians as the BJP has done in India.
The Chinese also take much better care of protecting their population from the ravages of chronic hunger that are common in India.
So, fundamentally, Chinese are doing a better job of looking after their people than the Indians are doing.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
In China, the government does not organize pogroms of Muslims or Christians as the BJP has done in India.
The Chinese also take much better care of protecting their population from the ravages of chronic hunger that are common in India.
So, fundamentally, Chinese are doing a better job of looking after their people than the Indians are doing.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#422 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 10:15:54 pm
nkg #416:
Well, you could call Nehru a democratically-elected dictator. The five-year plans and such were in emulation of the Soviet Union, not China. But Nehru's rule was nothing like Mao's - there were no purges or periodic violent convulsions like the decade-long Cultural Revolution.
Well, you could call Nehru a democratically-elected dictator. The five-year plans and such were in emulation of the Soviet Union, not China. But Nehru's rule was nothing like Mao's - there were no purges or periodic violent convulsions like the decade-long Cultural Revolution.
#421 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 10:11:03 pm
nkg #417:
{{let us join RSS and pack up moslems and send them to the arabic moon god's second preferred land; Pakiland.}}
Unfortunately that can't be done, and you know it. The cancer of Islamofascism is life-threatening but your cure is still worse. It violates individual rights and fails the test of justice to individuals who happen to be of Muslim background.
But it is essential to point out, in every venue, that Islam is of no use to a modern polity and is a clear and present danger to democracy and to non-Muslims. It is important to not let plainspeaking about Islam be held hostage to politeness and a misplaced sense of decency.
Unfortunately India is stuck between the Congress and the BJP. The Congress appeases the Muslim community with stupid sops like regressive personal law and haj subsidies, leaving them to rot. The BJP engages in reactive stupidities like demolishing the miserable Babri Masjid. But there are not too many people who will tell Muslims plainly, repeatedly, that their religion is a hindrance to their welfare as individuals and that it has to be radically modified or abandoned in today's world.
{{let us join RSS and pack up moslems and send them to the arabic moon god's second preferred land; Pakiland.}}
Unfortunately that can't be done, and you know it. The cancer of Islamofascism is life-threatening but your cure is still worse. It violates individual rights and fails the test of justice to individuals who happen to be of Muslim background.
But it is essential to point out, in every venue, that Islam is of no use to a modern polity and is a clear and present danger to democracy and to non-Muslims. It is important to not let plainspeaking about Islam be held hostage to politeness and a misplaced sense of decency.
Unfortunately India is stuck between the Congress and the BJP. The Congress appeases the Muslim community with stupid sops like regressive personal law and haj subsidies, leaving them to rot. The BJP engages in reactive stupidities like demolishing the miserable Babri Masjid. But there are not too many people who will tell Muslims plainly, repeatedly, that their religion is a hindrance to their welfare as individuals and that it has to be radically modified or abandoned in today's world.
#420 Posted by harish_hyd on June 29, 2009 9:53:44 pm
#401 by RiazHaq
Most Chinese Muslims are Hui Muslims, ethnically the same as the majority Han Chinese and they get along well. In fact, there is a thriving Muslim community in Beijing and several large mosques where they practice their faith like Muslims elsewhere in the world.
Aww...really? Indians and you Paki Muslims are also ethnically same (although most Pakis love to tout the fact that their grandmoms were screwed by Afghans, Turks and what not to emphasise their distinctness), yet we know how the Muslim League demanded a Pakistan because they were different from the Hindus. No wonder despite their ethnic "sameness", the Chinese have kept their Muslims on a tight leash and under their jackboots.
Most Chinese Muslims are Hui Muslims, ethnically the same as the majority Han Chinese and they get along well. In fact, there is a thriving Muslim community in Beijing and several large mosques where they practice their faith like Muslims elsewhere in the world.
Aww...really? Indians and you Paki Muslims are also ethnically same (although most Pakis love to tout the fact that their grandmoms were screwed by Afghans, Turks and what not to emphasise their distinctness), yet we know how the Muslim League demanded a Pakistan because they were different from the Hindus. No wonder despite their ethnic "sameness", the Chinese have kept their Muslims on a tight leash and under their jackboots.
#419 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:50:04 pm
Riaz...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2974882.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2974882.stm
#418 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:48:28 pm
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#417 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:43:25 pm
Re: # 412
Aleph...
These Paki muslas and many muslas living in India get scared of RSS/BJP...That is the reason, they oppose BJP/RSS...I am sure, after 1971, there is no love left in Pakistanis for India...
Jai mata di...let us join RSS and pack up moslems and send them to the arabic moon god's second preferred land; Pakiland...let them enjoy arabic moon god's gift to these blessed people-NATO missiles.....
Aleph...
These Paki muslas and many muslas living in India get scared of RSS/BJP...That is the reason, they oppose BJP/RSS...I am sure, after 1971, there is no love left in Pakistanis for India...
Jai mata di...let us join RSS and pack up moslems and send them to the arabic moon god's second preferred land; Pakiland...let them enjoy arabic moon god's gift to these blessed people-NATO missiles.....
#416 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:37:34 pm
Re: # 414
Aleph...
Nehru...He was the greatest dictator in the modern history, who ensured 3 generations of rule of the country....No dictator in China or elsewhere did that...
The 5 year plans and kicking out private industries( which was thrivinbg under British rule) was emulation of China....
Then license/permit stuff; emergency for brief period...
Congress/Nehru followed Chinku model....
Aleph...
Nehru...He was the greatest dictator in the modern history, who ensured 3 generations of rule of the country....No dictator in China or elsewhere did that...
The 5 year plans and kicking out private industries( which was thrivinbg under British rule) was emulation of China....
Then license/permit stuff; emergency for brief period...
Congress/Nehru followed Chinku model....
#415 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:33:26 pm
Re: # 375
Khyber...
Good point, but will Israel help you?
Indo-Israel diplomatic relationship was recent phenomenon...
But people to people contact was there for long time. India used to be favourite destination for Israelis. Some used to take narcotic path in Goa and other Yoga and meditation to relieve their stress.
Jews are very liberal and pragmatic like Indians.
And through various Indian(Hindu)-Jew forums the tie strengthened...Diplomatic tie was almost inevitable...
Furthermore, India has history of sheltering Jews when they felt threatened; on the contrary Jews have bloody relationship with moslems and current conflict with arab countries are religion/islam centric...
Try your best, but I am sure, it will not be that easy; the way you think.....
Khyber...
Good point, but will Israel help you?
Indo-Israel diplomatic relationship was recent phenomenon...
But people to people contact was there for long time. India used to be favourite destination for Israelis. Some used to take narcotic path in Goa and other Yoga and meditation to relieve their stress.
Jews are very liberal and pragmatic like Indians.
And through various Indian(Hindu)-Jew forums the tie strengthened...Diplomatic tie was almost inevitable...
Furthermore, India has history of sheltering Jews when they felt threatened; on the contrary Jews have bloody relationship with moslems and current conflict with arab countries are religion/islam centric...
Try your best, but I am sure, it will not be that easy; the way you think.....
#414 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 9:31:54 pm
nkg #411:
{{India emulated China for quite a long time and there is no point denying that...}}
In what way did we emulate China? Great Leap Forward killing 40 million? No.
Great Proletarian Cultural revolution killing another 20 million? No. Labor and re-education camps for bourgeouis intellectuals? No. Internal passports, restrictions on movement, residency permits (hu-kou)? No. Dictatorship under a single supreme leader - yes, for a couple of years. Population control by forced sterilization ... yes, during the same period. Eradication of grinding poverty? Alas, no.
The Chinese are culturally primed by three thousand years of history to accept authoritarianism and (hopefully paternalistic) absolute rule. Indians are too individualistic to tolerate Chinese ways.
{{India emulated China for quite a long time and there is no point denying that...}}
In what way did we emulate China? Great Leap Forward killing 40 million? No.
Great Proletarian Cultural revolution killing another 20 million? No. Labor and re-education camps for bourgeouis intellectuals? No. Internal passports, restrictions on movement, residency permits (hu-kou)? No. Dictatorship under a single supreme leader - yes, for a couple of years. Population control by forced sterilization ... yes, during the same period. Eradication of grinding poverty? Alas, no.
The Chinese are culturally primed by three thousand years of history to accept authoritarianism and (hopefully paternalistic) absolute rule. Indians are too individualistic to tolerate Chinese ways.
#413 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:16:23 pm
Re: # 387
GF...
Yeh, you are right....and that is the reason, despite support from US and EU, Pakistan lost half of it's country; thanks to India for that...and the Kashmir issue, which Robin Cook(UK) tried to intervene several times....
GF...
Yeh, you are right....and that is the reason, despite support from US and EU, Pakistan lost half of it's country; thanks to India for that...and the Kashmir issue, which Robin Cook(UK) tried to intervene several times....
#412 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 9:16:18 pm
RiazHaq #397:
The most signficant fascist party or organization in the Indian subcontinent from the period of the 1930's and 1940's has to be the All-India Muslim League. The most influential fascist ideologue produced by the subcontinent has to be Allama Muhammad Iqbal Lahori, patron saint of the Islamic republic of Pakistan, a man who admired and had met Mussolini.
This isn't really the least bit surprising since Islam is a communally-centred anti-individualistic religion focused on the solidarity of the Muslim ummah and its separation from and endless opposition to non-Muslims. It is most instructive to read the great Iqbal's December 1930 address to the Annual Session of the League at Allahbad. He plainly rejects the notion that religion is a private affair of the individual. He declares that "the religious ideal of Islam ... is organically related to the social order which it has created". He exalts "communalism in its higher aspect". He claims that the Muslims of India are suffering from the evil of "fast losing what is called the herd-instinct". He declares that "Islam is itself destiny and will not suffer a destiny!". And he demands unity of will and purpose from Indian Muslims. A clearer declaration of anti-individualistic fascism cannot be found.
Nor should it be surprising that Pakistan has subsequently repeatedly fallen into the familiar fascist pattern of military dictatorship. Finally Mr. Haq's own fascist sympathies are manifest in his contempt for liberal democracy and his oft-stated adulation of the tinpot Musharraf and of authoritarian regimes in East Asia.
The most signficant fascist party or organization in the Indian subcontinent from the period of the 1930's and 1940's has to be the All-India Muslim League. The most influential fascist ideologue produced by the subcontinent has to be Allama Muhammad Iqbal Lahori, patron saint of the Islamic republic of Pakistan, a man who admired and had met Mussolini.
This isn't really the least bit surprising since Islam is a communally-centred anti-individualistic religion focused on the solidarity of the Muslim ummah and its separation from and endless opposition to non-Muslims. It is most instructive to read the great Iqbal's December 1930 address to the Annual Session of the League at Allahbad. He plainly rejects the notion that religion is a private affair of the individual. He declares that "the religious ideal of Islam ... is organically related to the social order which it has created". He exalts "communalism in its higher aspect". He claims that the Muslims of India are suffering from the evil of "fast losing what is called the herd-instinct". He declares that "Islam is itself destiny and will not suffer a destiny!". And he demands unity of will and purpose from Indian Muslims. A clearer declaration of anti-individualistic fascism cannot be found.
Nor should it be surprising that Pakistan has subsequently repeatedly fallen into the familiar fascist pattern of military dictatorship. Finally Mr. Haq's own fascist sympathies are manifest in his contempt for liberal democracy and his oft-stated adulation of the tinpot Musharraf and of authoritarian regimes in East Asia.
#411 Posted by nkg on June 29, 2009 9:09:37 pm
Re: # 402
Aleph...
India emulated China for quite a long time and there is no point denying that...Post Nehru/Indira Gandhi period, specialy during BJP/NDA regime, we wanted to be something different and not a junior to China...Pakistan was never in the picture and it should not be...
Now, lot of people put excuse of democracy for our tardy progress....USA,UK etc. progressed through democracy and we should have been able to be...But then, we are carrying baggage of several centuries and people expected a lot from BJP...They failed to fulfil the expectation of people...Wish BJP people keeps this stuff in mind....People expect a lot from them....
Aleph...
India emulated China for quite a long time and there is no point denying that...Post Nehru/Indira Gandhi period, specialy during BJP/NDA regime, we wanted to be something different and not a junior to China...Pakistan was never in the picture and it should not be...
Now, lot of people put excuse of democracy for our tardy progress....USA,UK etc. progressed through democracy and we should have been able to be...But then, we are carrying baggage of several centuries and people expected a lot from BJP...They failed to fulfil the expectation of people...Wish BJP people keeps this stuff in mind....People expect a lot from them....
#410 Posted by pmishra2 on June 29, 2009 8:42:42 pm
#402 tahmed32
I have no problem with chinese progress, especially amongst their poorest people. They are definitely much ahead in that regard of the indians. We should admire their pragmatism in getting rid of poverty, there is much to learn there.
But my admiration ends there. We have very little information about how the country is run and how many 100s of 1000s are being brutalized everyday. Everyday we hear about some lawyer or local activist being locked up or dissapeared because they complained about some problem. How many 100 billions have been sequestered by the communist party leaders? How many of their children live in comfort outside the country? No one knows.
We do know that milk is regularly poisoned amongst the middle-class and fake medicine is regularly sold (and even exported!). The harshness shown to the tiny (under 10 million) tibetan minority is also appalling. But as a chinese friend said to me - what do you expect - the govt treats its own people in just such a brutal and horrible manner - why should it be different for the tibetans?
I have no problem with chinese progress, especially amongst their poorest people. They are definitely much ahead in that regard of the indians. We should admire their pragmatism in getting rid of poverty, there is much to learn there.
But my admiration ends there. We have very little information about how the country is run and how many 100s of 1000s are being brutalized everyday. Everyday we hear about some lawyer or local activist being locked up or dissapeared because they complained about some problem. How many 100 billions have been sequestered by the communist party leaders? How many of their children live in comfort outside the country? No one knows.
We do know that milk is regularly poisoned amongst the middle-class and fake medicine is regularly sold (and even exported!). The harshness shown to the tiny (under 10 million) tibetan minority is also appalling. But as a chinese friend said to me - what do you expect - the govt treats its own people in just such a brutal and horrible manner - why should it be different for the tibetans?
#409 Posted by anil on June 29, 2009 8:36:06 pm
Riaz Mian:
You talk about Indian in the dust. Please tell where does it say that a diamond cannot be in the dust or deep down in the mine.
You talk about Indian in the dust. Please tell where does it say that a diamond cannot be in the dust or deep down in the mine.
#408 Posted by anil on June 29, 2009 8:34:49 pm
Tahmed sahib:
Biggest danger to India and Pakistan is mutual distrust and suspecion. All societies have fasicst elements. These elements gain when the society is in adverse situation. Like it or not, Pakistan is in far more adverse situation today that India is. For this reason, for a change, I believe the U.S. is doing things besides military in Pakistan. I support it.
Unstable neighborhood is precisely that. No matter who is in that neighborhood.
Biggest danger to India and Pakistan is mutual distrust and suspecion. All societies have fasicst elements. These elements gain when the society is in adverse situation. Like it or not, Pakistan is in far more adverse situation today that India is. For this reason, for a change, I believe the U.S. is doing things besides military in Pakistan. I support it.
Unstable neighborhood is precisely that. No matter who is in that neighborhood.
#407 Posted by anil on June 29, 2009 8:31:12 pm
Re: # 404
Correction:
"...must be construed as me supporting fascism..."
please read as:
"...must NOT be construed as me supporting fascism..."
Correction:
"...must be construed as me supporting fascism..."
please read as:
"...must NOT be construed as me supporting fascism..."
#406 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 8:26:50 pm
Riaz sahib: These are good points. We must be clear on the enemy though - it is not poverty in india. rather it is hindu revivalism in india. and the latter is irrelevant as far as Pakistan is concerned since militarily it is contained inside india. it has so only scored goals within india (fanning divisions via communalism, slaughtering their own citizens, etc.).
to me the real danger to pakistan is our equivalent of the RSS - the mullahs. and the saudi money that is feeding them - the saudi monarchy being quite happy to keep its opposition in the form of ben laden and co. looking towards pakistan to satisfy its power-hunger.
to me the real danger to pakistan is our equivalent of the RSS - the mullahs. and the saudi money that is feeding them - the saudi monarchy being quite happy to keep its opposition in the form of ben laden and co. looking towards pakistan to satisfy its power-hunger.
#405 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 8:26:36 pm
Re: # 399
Riaz sahib...thats exactly the way it is...while India's capability and wish is to only compete with the ten times smaller Pakistan, and to try to act grandiose...while the humble Chinese have surged way ahead...so one wonders how could a Pinto be made to perform like a Ferrari?
Riaz sahib...thats exactly the way it is...while India's capability and wish is to only compete with the ten times smaller Pakistan, and to try to act grandiose...while the humble Chinese have surged way ahead...so one wonders how could a Pinto be made to perform like a Ferrari?
#404 Posted by anil on June 29, 2009 8:25:32 pm
Riaz:
For you knowledge so was Razakar (??) of Muslim League. It was in vogue. BTW, I had a syrian engineer who worked in my company and told me that Syrians celebrate Hitler also, and raise slogans.
Please do not get holier than thou. Islam has its share of fascists.
This statement of mine, must be construed as me supporting fascism. I just do not, never have and never will.
For you knowledge so was Razakar (??) of Muslim League. It was in vogue. BTW, I had a syrian engineer who worked in my company and told me that Syrians celebrate Hitler also, and raise slogans.
Please do not get holier than thou. Islam has its share of fascists.
This statement of mine, must be construed as me supporting fascism. I just do not, never have and never will.
#403 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 8:18:44 pm
Re: # 400
tahmed sahib,
Though I don't agree with any one who may have supported Hitler, I can understand why Europeans (such as Bosnian Muslim) would take sides in the battle on their continent for their own reasons.
But the RSS's Golwalkar's admiration was based entirely on Nazi philosophy of "cleansing" Europe of Jews. RSS agenda against Indian Muslims is similar to Nazi agenda against European Jews.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
tahmed sahib,
Though I don't agree with any one who may have supported Hitler, I can understand why Europeans (such as Bosnian Muslim) would take sides in the battle on their continent for their own reasons.
But the RSS's Golwalkar's admiration was based entirely on Nazi philosophy of "cleansing" Europe of Jews. RSS agenda against Indian Muslims is similar to Nazi agenda against European Jews.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#402 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 8:16:03 pm
pmishra2
A few years ago the PRC was executing about 10,000 of its citizens a year (yes, that's right: ten thousand). This was according to CCP officials. The numbers are supposed to be somewhat lower now, but still many thousands. The Chinese have a very short way with Muslim 'splittists' from East Turkestan (Xinjiang) - they get a summary trial and a bullet in the head; the bill for the bullet is sent to the condemned person's relatives. You will not a hear a peep about this from the likes of Riaz Haq (PAW).
It is not the least bit surprising that the likes of Riaz Haq (PAW) admire the pork-eating atheist Chinese authoritarians. You have to understand the mentality of these aging Pakistanis. They were brought up with the myth that their Islamic republic was destined to be effortlessly superior to Hindu India in all respects. The first really profound shock to their system would have been the 1971 war - something they still haven't come to terms with. They have far greater difficulty assimilating the fact that Indians today are in several domains shooting for the stars and getting there, even while they remain waist-deep in muck; while Pakistan is completely unable to compete. The only way they can displace their immense rage at India's real achievements is to compare India with China, as though China's material progress is somehow a credit to Pakistan.
A few years ago the PRC was executing about 10,000 of its citizens a year (yes, that's right: ten thousand). This was according to CCP officials. The numbers are supposed to be somewhat lower now, but still many thousands. The Chinese have a very short way with Muslim 'splittists' from East Turkestan (Xinjiang) - they get a summary trial and a bullet in the head; the bill for the bullet is sent to the condemned person's relatives. You will not a hear a peep about this from the likes of Riaz Haq (PAW).
It is not the least bit surprising that the likes of Riaz Haq (PAW) admire the pork-eating atheist Chinese authoritarians. You have to understand the mentality of these aging Pakistanis. They were brought up with the myth that their Islamic republic was destined to be effortlessly superior to Hindu India in all respects. The first really profound shock to their system would have been the 1971 war - something they still haven't come to terms with. They have far greater difficulty assimilating the fact that Indians today are in several domains shooting for the stars and getting there, even while they remain waist-deep in muck; while Pakistan is completely unable to compete. The only way they can displace their immense rage at India's real achievements is to compare India with China, as though China's material progress is somehow a credit to Pakistan.
#401 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 8:13:47 pm
Re: # 390
Khyber,
Most Chinese Muslims are Hui Muslims, ethnically the same as the majority Han Chinese and they get along well. In fact, there is a thriving Muslim community in Beijing and several large mosques where they practice their faith like Muslims elsewhere in the world.
In fact, when Tibetans rioted in several Chinese provinces last year, howling Tibetan mobs turned on ethnic Han Chinese and Hui Muslims in the worst violence in nearly 20 years. Many businesses owned by the Han Chinese and Hui Muslims were attacked and burned by Tibetans.
There are many Muslim Chinese Halal restaurants in the US run by Hui Muslims that are very popular with both Chinese and American non-Muslims as well as Muslims in general. But I'd say 80% of their clientele is non-Muslim.
Xinjiang is more of an ethic issue rather than a religious conflict. Huiger Muslims in China are of Turkic origin and they want independence that the Chinese govt is trying to crush, just as the Indians are trying to crush the Kashmiris.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Khyber,
Most Chinese Muslims are Hui Muslims, ethnically the same as the majority Han Chinese and they get along well. In fact, there is a thriving Muslim community in Beijing and several large mosques where they practice their faith like Muslims elsewhere in the world.
In fact, when Tibetans rioted in several Chinese provinces last year, howling Tibetan mobs turned on ethnic Han Chinese and Hui Muslims in the worst violence in nearly 20 years. Many businesses owned by the Han Chinese and Hui Muslims were attacked and burned by Tibetans.
There are many Muslim Chinese Halal restaurants in the US run by Hui Muslims that are very popular with both Chinese and American non-Muslims as well as Muslims in general. But I'd say 80% of their clientele is non-Muslim.
Xinjiang is more of an ethic issue rather than a religious conflict. Huiger Muslims in China are of Turkic origin and they want independence that the Chinese govt is trying to crush, just as the Indians are trying to crush the Kashmiris.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#400 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 8:00:47 pm
RiazSahib: just to play the hindu's advocate - there were muslim regiments in Hitler's army too (Bosnian formations who fought Serbians for Hitler, as well as from the Soviet Union - http://stosstruppen39-45.tripod.com/id10.html
But then..the hindu "hero" Bose was a chamcha of the Hitler/Japanese regime too.
But then..the hindu "hero" Bose was a chamcha of the Hitler/Japanese regime too.
#399 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 7:56:13 pm
Re: # 387
Goldfinger,
I agree. They see India as counterweight to China's growing power and influence in Asia. And they'll try to pump up Indians to compete with China. But I don't think they understand the fundamental weaknesses in India's ability to complete with the Chinese. While many Indians may be delusional and brag about themselves as "India Shining" or "Resurgent India", the Chinese leaders are much more modest and describe themselves as a developing country.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Goldfinger,
I agree. They see India as counterweight to China's growing power and influence in Asia. And they'll try to pump up Indians to compete with China. But I don't think they understand the fundamental weaknesses in India's ability to complete with the Chinese. While many Indians may be delusional and brag about themselves as "India Shining" or "Resurgent India", the Chinese leaders are much more modest and describe themselves as a developing country.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#398 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 7:49:58 pm
pmishra #391: when you point one finger at china you point 3 fingers at yourself. (thanks GF).
#397 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 7:44:51 pm
Re: # 391
Nobody admired Hitler more than the right-wing Hindu bigots in India who created the Sangh Parivar, the same bigots who now claim friendship with Israel with its many Holocaust survivors.
As to your jealousy of China, it is understandable given how your democracy has denied such a basic rights as food, clothing, shelter and sanitation to hundreds of millions of your own citizens.
In fact if food were a human right as highly valued by your western friends, India would fare far worse than China on its human rights record.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Nobody admired Hitler more than the right-wing Hindu bigots in India who created the Sangh Parivar, the same bigots who now claim friendship with Israel with its many Holocaust survivors.
As to your jealousy of China, it is understandable given how your democracy has denied such a basic rights as food, clothing, shelter and sanitation to hundreds of millions of your own citizens.
In fact if food were a human right as highly valued by your western friends, India would fare far worse than China on its human rights record.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#396 Posted by juror on June 29, 2009 7:23:55 pm
khyber ignore these ignorant hindues like VRV,just ask him when was the last time he took shower,stinky indians...tu
#395 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 7:08:10 pm
384, U presumptious Punjabi. I dont worship any gods or dogs. I am a free spirit.
#394 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 7:06:52 pm
Re: # 392VRV....I did not get education by sitting in front of that stony thing u worship.get real education.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#393 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 7:05:42 pm
Yaar Punjabi KHYBER, I dont blame u bur ur educational system.
#392 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 7:02:34 pm
390, Punjabi KHYBER,
U contradicted urself. Where did u get ur education? Kakul?
U contradicted urself. Where did u get ur education? Kakul?
#391 Posted by pmishra2 on June 29, 2009 6:58:26 pm
There is a long history of islamists admiring totalitarian societies...many of the mid-century middle-eastern islamists admired hitler...so it should come as no surprise that riaz and his fellow freaks have only one mantra - china, china and so on. This is consistent with a people who have a deep inferiority complex and lack of self-knowledge about their own culture, history and society.
The reality is that we dont have much information about china as a society. We do know that China routinely executes 1000s of its citizens and that people live with a high degree of fear. We have no idea how many 100000s of peasants are being brutalized and pushed out of their homes in the name of development.
The degree of enmenshment between business and govt is quite astonishing - and raises very difficult questions about future growth. Chinese ultra-nationalism is a danger to all its neighbors - we have recently seen how they treat their tibetan minority - and it sends a clear signal on the type of brutality that the current regime considers OK.
The reality is that we dont have much information about china as a society. We do know that China routinely executes 1000s of its citizens and that people live with a high degree of fear. We have no idea how many 100000s of peasants are being brutalized and pushed out of their homes in the name of development.
The degree of enmenshment between business and govt is quite astonishing - and raises very difficult questions about future growth. Chinese ultra-nationalism is a danger to all its neighbors - we have recently seen how they treat their tibetan minority - and it sends a clear signal on the type of brutality that the current regime considers OK.
#390 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 6:58:16 pm
Re: # 388 VRV...in china religion is a private issue as long people observe their religions in peaceful manner,at least they are not killing and burning or raping muslims,christens,sikhs as happens in india.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#389 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 6:55:59 pm
Re: # 383goldfinger,zo kha yum,lug da hinduvano sara lugeya yu,de aukhpul zahn so gani.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#388 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 6:53:21 pm
Jackass Worldwide,
This is the reality in China's Xinjiang (East Turkistan).
a. Public azan is barred from masjids
b. bars public from fasting during Ramzan
c. doesnt employ ppl who grow beard, wear hijab etc.,
d. doesnt declare Muslim festivals as public holidays
So this suppression of momins is good as long as long China's figured ahead of India.
This is the reality in China's Xinjiang (East Turkistan).
a. Public azan is barred from masjids
b. bars public from fasting during Ramzan
c. doesnt employ ppl who grow beard, wear hijab etc.,
d. doesnt declare Muslim festivals as public holidays
So this suppression of momins is good as long as long China's figured ahead of India.
#387 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 6:51:55 pm
Re: # 385
Riaz sahib,
I think the west feels more threatened by China because they can not manipulate it the way they can India...but unfortunately the only problem with this is like that of expecting the performance of a Ferrari out of say a Ford Pinto..
Riaz sahib,
I think the west feels more threatened by China because they can not manipulate it the way they can India...but unfortunately the only problem with this is like that of expecting the performance of a Ferrari out of say a Ford Pinto..
#386 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 6:44:23 pm
The most repressive regime in the world is the caste system in india, so stop calling yourself democratic society. You don't even know what democracy means. Why don't you go ahead and predict your own social outburst of anger and disenchantment resulting from decades of suppression, and expect turmoil and disintegration of your own country? I just wonder about the ability of the Indian government to provide jobs for its future less-educated billion citizens. Will they end up crossing the border to neighboring countries, such as China, to look for jobs? That would not be that bad for China since China could then focus its younger citizens to pursue hi-tech jobs and leave the factory-worker positions to the Indians. Also, India has the greatest number of under-weight child, number of child labor working in slave-like conditions, discrimination, corruption etc. In short India is more akin to the poorest country of Africa. I hate to waist my time on india here but The reason I find why india cannot catch up with China is its ppl who always live in illusion but rather not think of how to change india.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#385 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 6:41:38 pm
Re: # 382
The West has a vested interest in promoting India over China because they regard India as "The World's Largest Democracy" and they are embarrassed by India's woeful performance compared to the "totalitarian" regime in China.
This reality just doesn't fit well with the Western propaganda of democracy as the best religion to follow.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
The West has a vested interest in promoting India over China because they regard India as "The World's Largest Democracy" and they are embarrassed by India's woeful performance compared to the "totalitarian" regime in China.
This reality just doesn't fit well with the Western propaganda of democracy as the best religion to follow.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#384 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 6:39:43 pm
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#383 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 6:34:13 pm
Re: # 380
khyber...rora pakhairuno...singa chal dhey?
khyber...rora pakhairuno...singa chal dhey?
#382 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 6:31:58 pm
Re: # 378
You can accept and understand the reality of how China has already left India in the dust and do something about it. Or you can live in you own fool's paradise called "Shining India". The Choice is yours.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
You can accept and understand the reality of how China has already left India in the dust and do something about it. Or you can live in you own fool's paradise called "Shining India". The Choice is yours.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#381 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 6:31:19 pm
India can't actually compete with China in a number of areas, like international influence, overall national power and economic scale. India apparently has not yet realized this.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#380 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 6:28:52 pm
Re: # 378VRV ...punjabi and pashtuns are Pakistani first,why don't you get some education and share your discussion in convincing manner.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#379 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 6:26:35 pm
Re: # 360
tahmed...I don't need to encourage Riaz sahib, and he is no equivalent of arjun either, because that gentleman only spewed filthy vitriol...however, my point is why can't someone bring to light India's ailments too for a change rather than to indulge only in Pak bashing all the time...I know Pak bashing with Pak neo-liberals is very fashionable, but it is particularly a habit with all Indians...there is just nothing sacrosanct with these people, religion, culture, language...they hate it all...yet they all forget that when you point a finger at someone three of your own fingers point at your own self.
tahmed...I don't need to encourage Riaz sahib, and he is no equivalent of arjun either, because that gentleman only spewed filthy vitriol...however, my point is why can't someone bring to light India's ailments too for a change rather than to indulge only in Pak bashing all the time...I know Pak bashing with Pak neo-liberals is very fashionable, but it is particularly a habit with all Indians...there is just nothing sacrosanct with these people, religion, culture, language...they hate it all...yet they all forget that when you point a finger at someone three of your own fingers point at your own self.
#378 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 6:18:15 pm
Riaz,
Almost all of Chinese economic boom is in her east coast. The investment came initially from overseas Chinese & Taiwan. Rest of China is like any other III word country in terms of industrial infrastructure.
The USP of Chinese growth is her labour and cost issues. AS for 'electricity, automation, capital, roads, ports, skilled factory labor etc etc.'
U need some lil objectivity to see the points u mentioned. No industrial unit was closed in India due to power issues. Automation comes with capital coz most of it's imported. There're hundreds of fund companies that're willing to invest in India. If not FDI, India can raise the money from capital markets. Indian capital markets are matured unlike Chinese.
India's performance was not impeded due to roads and ports. Our ports are modern enuff to handle cargo of any kind. Nhava Sheva (Mumbai) is one of the most modern ports in the world.
If China's labour can produce in bulk India's workforce can work in outsourced offices. China's world's manufacturer whereas India's world's back office. It's all abt core-competencies.
Get some education, Riaz.
' And do you know who set up the highly efficient massive factories producing everything from toys to shoes, shirts and electronics? It's China's People's Liberation Army, the PLA'
Now u became a spokesman of an army that doesn't allow it's Muslim majority Xinxiang to
a. shout azans from masjids
b. bars public from fasting during Ramzan
c. doesnt employ ppl who grow beard, wear hijab etc.,
d. doesnt declare Muslim festivals as public holidays
Mind u that Xinjiang is bordering with Pakistan and u r damn happy abt their PLA. I like ur secular Islamism, Riaz. :)
KHYBER,
U r a Punjai troll acting like a Pashtun warrior. Lol!
Almost all of Chinese economic boom is in her east coast. The investment came initially from overseas Chinese & Taiwan. Rest of China is like any other III word country in terms of industrial infrastructure.
The USP of Chinese growth is her labour and cost issues. AS for 'electricity, automation, capital, roads, ports, skilled factory labor etc etc.'
U need some lil objectivity to see the points u mentioned. No industrial unit was closed in India due to power issues. Automation comes with capital coz most of it's imported. There're hundreds of fund companies that're willing to invest in India. If not FDI, India can raise the money from capital markets. Indian capital markets are matured unlike Chinese.
India's performance was not impeded due to roads and ports. Our ports are modern enuff to handle cargo of any kind. Nhava Sheva (Mumbai) is one of the most modern ports in the world.
If China's labour can produce in bulk India's workforce can work in outsourced offices. China's world's manufacturer whereas India's world's back office. It's all abt core-competencies.
Get some education, Riaz.
' And do you know who set up the highly efficient massive factories producing everything from toys to shoes, shirts and electronics? It's China's People's Liberation Army, the PLA'
Now u became a spokesman of an army that doesn't allow it's Muslim majority Xinxiang to
a. shout azans from masjids
b. bars public from fasting during Ramzan
c. doesnt employ ppl who grow beard, wear hijab etc.,
d. doesnt declare Muslim festivals as public holidays
Mind u that Xinjiang is bordering with Pakistan and u r damn happy abt their PLA. I like ur secular Islamism, Riaz. :)
KHYBER,
U r a Punjai troll acting like a Pashtun warrior. Lol!
#377 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 5:58:30 pm
Re: # 375
Khyber sahib,
There is not much in common between Jews and Hindus other than the common hatred of Muslims for the last 60 years.
In reality, the RSS is ideologically closer to the Nazis but the Jews are closer to Muslims as followers of Abrahamic faith.
And Muslims have in fact protected and sheltered Jews through out European history when the Jews were persecuted by Christians. In fact, it was the Ottomans who welcomed Jews when they were persecuted by Catholics during the Spanish Inquisition.
Pakistan's recognition of Israel will not help Pakistan because it will still be a Muslim nation seen as hostile to Israel by most Jews. On the contrary, it'll hurt Pakistan's beneficial relationship with the Middle Eastern investors and businesses which have helped in Pakistan's economic development.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Khyber sahib,
There is not much in common between Jews and Hindus other than the common hatred of Muslims for the last 60 years.
In reality, the RSS is ideologically closer to the Nazis but the Jews are closer to Muslims as followers of Abrahamic faith.
And Muslims have in fact protected and sheltered Jews through out European history when the Jews were persecuted by Christians. In fact, it was the Ottomans who welcomed Jews when they were persecuted by Catholics during the Spanish Inquisition.
Pakistan's recognition of Israel will not help Pakistan because it will still be a Muslim nation seen as hostile to Israel by most Jews. On the contrary, it'll hurt Pakistan's beneficial relationship with the Middle Eastern investors and businesses which have helped in Pakistan's economic development.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#376 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 5:41:55 pm
Re: # 374..well said Riaz...there is no way India will be able to compete China.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#375 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 5:40:45 pm
RiazHaq Saab, India will join any country if Indian leadership thinks it will go against Pakistan,but I think it would be better and in Pakistan's interests to recognize Israel to break Indian influence on Israel's diplomacy in south east Asia,I think that way Israel will have a balance of relationship with India and Pakistan,lets not forget that SAUDI ARABIA and many other ARAB countries have secret contacts with Israel.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#374 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 5:38:07 pm
Re: # 370
VRV: "India cant compete with China due to labour and cost issues)."
Really? Is that the only issue? What about electricity, automation, capital, roads, ports, skilled factory labor etc etc.
I think it's hard for you to understand the real differences between the two economies unless you go and visit to see the reality on the ground.
China is no longer just another low-wage country. Its wages are now higher than India's. What accounts for costs difference is the efficiency and the economies of scale.
And do you know who set up the highly efficient massive factories producing everything from toys to shoes, shirts and electronics? It's China's People's Liberation Army, the PLA.
Deng loosened restrictions on PLA and encouraged them to get into civilian products business in the 1980s. And the PLA did extremely well in massive and rapid industrialization of Chinese economy and bringing lots of capital and cash into the economy.
I invite you to read:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industrial.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
VRV: "India cant compete with China due to labour and cost issues)."
Really? Is that the only issue? What about electricity, automation, capital, roads, ports, skilled factory labor etc etc.
I think it's hard for you to understand the real differences between the two economies unless you go and visit to see the reality on the ground.
China is no longer just another low-wage country. Its wages are now higher than India's. What accounts for costs difference is the efficiency and the economies of scale.
And do you know who set up the highly efficient massive factories producing everything from toys to shoes, shirts and electronics? It's China's People's Liberation Army, the PLA.
Deng loosened restrictions on PLA and encouraged them to get into civilian products business in the 1980s. And the PLA did extremely well in massive and rapid industrialization of Chinese economy and bringing lots of capital and cash into the economy.
I invite you to read:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/militarys-role-in-pakistans-industrial.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#373 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 5:32:56 pm
Riaz, Since Pakistan fell out from our civilisation and joined Ummah, India perforce joined Jewish nation for civilisational coordination to counter Ummah's plans on India.
I think that's a fair game.
I think that's a fair game.
#370 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 5:20:19 pm
On US, Japan, China & India.
China and India made huge leaps in PCIs but not comparable with Japan or the US. China would soon surpass Japan in GDP but lag miles behind in PCI. India is estimated to surpass GDPs of UK, France and Germany by 2016 or so.
China surged ahead of India as it outperformed India and manufacturing sector. China has monopoly in many areas of manufacturing (for eg toys. it controls more than 80% the world market, same with computer hardware and other electronic components. Tho a Commie country it gives damn abt workers rights, so it grabbed all the manufacturing jobs for a pittance; India cant compete with China due to labour and cost issues).
China even made some strategic acquisitions in South Amercia, Africa for feeding its manufacturing base (oil, mineral resources for eg; India cudnt do it so far and it's not even competing in that area).
Inspite of all this US is still the dominant power in the world now but it cant avoid the problem of diminishing returns in future. So is the case with Japan. The most likely economies that can rival US in the future are China and India but India cant be compared with China coz China's far ahead of India in many areas of growth. However India can be counted as a regional power at least.
China has some uncertain political future due its present dictatorial political set up. All international rating agencies include this point in their sovereign ratings, not that China's going to break up but there's an element of uncertainty in that area.
From Americas, it's got to be US+Canada and Brazil
In Europe it's got to be Russia coz other countries have limitations for future expansion as they've already reached their potential. Pl dont forget their geographical & manpower limitations.
In Asia it got to be Japan, China and India.
When FZ talks abt the big economies then it got to be US, Russia, Japan, China and India. Dont say he's biased.
China and India made huge leaps in PCIs but not comparable with Japan or the US. China would soon surpass Japan in GDP but lag miles behind in PCI. India is estimated to surpass GDPs of UK, France and Germany by 2016 or so.
China surged ahead of India as it outperformed India and manufacturing sector. China has monopoly in many areas of manufacturing (for eg toys. it controls more than 80% the world market, same with computer hardware and other electronic components. Tho a Commie country it gives damn abt workers rights, so it grabbed all the manufacturing jobs for a pittance; India cant compete with China due to labour and cost issues).
China even made some strategic acquisitions in South Amercia, Africa for feeding its manufacturing base (oil, mineral resources for eg; India cudnt do it so far and it's not even competing in that area).
Inspite of all this US is still the dominant power in the world now but it cant avoid the problem of diminishing returns in future. So is the case with Japan. The most likely economies that can rival US in the future are China and India but India cant be compared with China coz China's far ahead of India in many areas of growth. However India can be counted as a regional power at least.
China has some uncertain political future due its present dictatorial political set up. All international rating agencies include this point in their sovereign ratings, not that China's going to break up but there's an element of uncertainty in that area.
From Americas, it's got to be US+Canada and Brazil
In Europe it's got to be Russia coz other countries have limitations for future expansion as they've already reached their potential. Pl dont forget their geographical & manpower limitations.
In Asia it got to be Japan, China and India.
When FZ talks abt the big economies then it got to be US, Russia, Japan, China and India. Dont say he's biased.
#369 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 5:18:45 pm
Re: # 365
Did they abscond before or after they were fired?
You should check your facts.
They were both fired months ago, well before the "scandal" broke.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Did they abscond before or after they were fired?
You should check your facts.
They were both fired months ago, well before the "scandal" broke.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#368 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 5:10:55 pm
Re: # 365
The influence of Israel-India axis in the US media is very palpable.
As a writer, I can see how to say the same thing in multiple different ways from friendly to hostile to indifferent. That's where the editorial bias comes in.
When the reporters/analysts you mention talk about Pakistan, it's not very difficult to sense hostility toward Pakistan and a friendly slant toward India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
The influence of Israel-India axis in the US media is very palpable.
As a writer, I can see how to say the same thing in multiple different ways from friendly to hostile to indifferent. That's where the editorial bias comes in.
When the reporters/analysts you mention talk about Pakistan, it's not very difficult to sense hostility toward Pakistan and a friendly slant toward India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#367 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 5:04:20 pm
Re: # 361
Malik,
I am just pointing out the rampant hypocrisy in India.
Pakistan proclaims itself as an "Islamic Republic" where as India toots its horn as "Secular Democracy".
The two countries should therefore be measured by their own standards that they need to live up to, before we compare them with any one else's standards.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Malik,
I am just pointing out the rampant hypocrisy in India.
Pakistan proclaims itself as an "Islamic Republic" where as India toots its horn as "Secular Democracy".
The two countries should therefore be measured by their own standards that they need to live up to, before we compare them with any one else's standards.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#366 Posted by Pardesi on June 29, 2009 5:02:12 pm
# 355 Tahmed,
I have thought about visiting my ancestors home in Mandi Bhauddin some time. I don't care if roads are cleaned by windex or not :). Inshallah some time.
I have thought about visiting my ancestors home in Mandi Bhauddin some time. I don't care if roads are cleaned by windex or not :). Inshallah some time.
#365 Posted by VRV on June 29, 2009 5:01:21 pm
Riaz, They're absconding for a month or so. Those public key positions cant be kept for them. They're dismissed for absconding from duties.
As for Mr. Zaqaria he's is of Indian origin. He's from Bombay and his mom still works for Taj where ur Pakistani boys came and created mayhem last year. He grew up in Bombay and moved to US and settled thereafter. He's now an international commentator of repute. He's not an Indophile fyi.
Ppl of Indian origin cud cause u heartburn as u see a lot of them in intl media (Fareed Zaqaria, Zain Veerji, Monica Rajpal, Daljit Dhaliwal, Rajiv Chandrasekaran, Anish Raman, Satinder Bhindra, Anand Naidu, Neena Nainan, Aparisim Ghosh, Hari Srinivasan, Shihab Rattansi & many more as I cant recollect all the names) & think-tanks (Parag Khanna, Reva Bhalla, Ashley Tellis etc., cant recollect all the names now).
All these may have some element of personal bias against Pakistan & u have to live with it.
As for Mr. Zaqaria he's is of Indian origin. He's from Bombay and his mom still works for Taj where ur Pakistani boys came and created mayhem last year. He grew up in Bombay and moved to US and settled thereafter. He's now an international commentator of repute. He's not an Indophile fyi.
Ppl of Indian origin cud cause u heartburn as u see a lot of them in intl media (Fareed Zaqaria, Zain Veerji, Monica Rajpal, Daljit Dhaliwal, Rajiv Chandrasekaran, Anish Raman, Satinder Bhindra, Anand Naidu, Neena Nainan, Aparisim Ghosh, Hari Srinivasan, Shihab Rattansi & many more as I cant recollect all the names) & think-tanks (Parag Khanna, Reva Bhalla, Ashley Tellis etc., cant recollect all the names now).
All these may have some element of personal bias against Pakistan & u have to live with it.
#364 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 4:58:00 pm
Re: # 356
I am glad to hear you've switched tracks from comparing India with US/China/Japan to compare with lowly Pakistan and BD.
I thought you considered it beneath you to compare "shining India" with "not-so-Shining" Pakistan.
Frankly, tahmed doesn't know what he is taking about on this subject. He's just trying to be nice to you for a change.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I am glad to hear you've switched tracks from comparing India with US/China/Japan to compare with lowly Pakistan and BD.
I thought you considered it beneath you to compare "shining India" with "not-so-Shining" Pakistan.
Frankly, tahmed doesn't know what he is taking about on this subject. He's just trying to be nice to you for a change.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#363 Posted by Pardesi on June 29, 2009 4:53:55 pm
Frankly my friend, I dont give a damn whether Indians or Pakistanis like me or not :).
This is just to pass some free time here and there. You have not seen me taking on my fellow Indians on their law and order situation. However, you got to acknowledge where India is doing great job.
This is just to pass some free time here and there. You have not seen me taking on my fellow Indians on their law and order situation. However, you got to acknowledge where India is doing great job.
#362 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 4:53:52 pm
Riaz sahib: you were not saying anything positive about pakistan. you were talking negative stuff about india.
#361 Posted by malikrashid on June 29, 2009 4:52:17 pm
Re: # 352
Riaz Haq
Imagine a case of conversion from the muslim majority to some minority religion in Pakistan, the consequence could be grave and reaction would be harsher. The educated middle-class individuals chose to convert to a minority religion to legitimise themselves as partners. This is a story of open-mindedness compared to Babri mosque and Gujrat. The reaction shown by the authorities to these individuals in India signifies the moral-cultural rot South Asia is. Why were they dismissed from their government jobs?
Riaz Haq
Imagine a case of conversion from the muslim majority to some minority religion in Pakistan, the consequence could be grave and reaction would be harsher. The educated middle-class individuals chose to convert to a minority religion to legitimise themselves as partners. This is a story of open-mindedness compared to Babri mosque and Gujrat. The reaction shown by the authorities to these individuals in India signifies the moral-cultural rot South Asia is. Why were they dismissed from their government jobs?
#360 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 4:52:08 pm
GF #357: Please dont encourage Riaz sahib. I am trying desperately to save him from becoming the Pakistani equivalent of an arjun or a jay thakeray.
#359 Posted by Pardesi on June 29, 2009 4:48:46 pm
Riaz, Fareed or no one else is saying that India is in the league of USA or Japan or even China at this time. He is talking about 2040/2050 and when you look at bright minds, recent successes, democratic institutions and huge number of competitive folks, it's possible that India can be the 3rd or 4th economic power after USA and China. Why not? Are Indians capable of screwing it all up? Yes. That's why these are some people's projections.
#358 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 4:48:34 pm
Re: # 356
I guess you are trying to endear yourself to the Chowk crowd by bashing Pakistan for a change. What angers most Indians (and their Pakistani liberal lackeys on Chowk) is the sin of saying anything positive about Pakistan.
I guess it's understandable that you want to live in peace in the Chowk neighborhood, but I think you are mistaken.
No matter how much you bash Pak, the Indians will not forgive you for any criticism of Shining India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I guess you are trying to endear yourself to the Chowk crowd by bashing Pakistan for a change. What angers most Indians (and their Pakistani liberal lackeys on Chowk) is the sin of saying anything positive about Pakistan.
I guess it's understandable that you want to live in peace in the Chowk neighborhood, but I think you are mistaken.
No matter how much you bash Pak, the Indians will not forgive you for any criticism of Shining India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#357 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 4:46:59 pm
Re: # 347
tahmed,
After you see the streets of India, and the muck, stench and pot holes on them, you sure would think that they daily cleaned the streets in Pakistan with windex.
tahmed,
After you see the streets of India, and the muck, stench and pot holes on them, you sure would think that they daily cleaned the streets in Pakistan with windex.
#356 Posted by Pardesi on June 29, 2009 4:42:42 pm
I was comparing India to Pakistan/Bangladesh since you keep bringing up roads, sanitation etc as if as Tahmed pointed out Pakistani roads are cleaned by windex every day.
#355 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 4:39:54 pm
Pardesi: you should visit Pakistan sometimes. Just make sure you dont slip on the streets which, as I mentioned earlier, are cleaned with Windex. Leh Nullah has been declared a World Heritage Site to protect it from those French perfume makers seeking to set up a perfume bottling plant on its shores. Riaz sahib can tell you all about it.
#354 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 4:38:17 pm
Re: # 353
I thought the Zakaria's comparison at issue was of India versus US, China and Japan.
But who are you comparing here with who?
Are you suggesting US, Japan and China are lazy but cultured and clean and India is hardworking but sloppy?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I thought the Zakaria's comparison at issue was of India versus US, China and Japan.
But who are you comparing here with who?
Are you suggesting US, Japan and China are lazy but cultured and clean and India is hardworking but sloppy?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#353 Posted by Pardesi on June 29, 2009 4:32:40 pm
#349 Riaz,
Suppose you have two sons in college:
First one - sloppy in room maintenance - I mean filthy room conditions, but works very hard, great in studies, not in trouble with others around him, good business brain too
Second one - clean room, much less studies, gets in fights all the time with class mates, does not care about what others think about him however pretends to be highly cultured when you meet him in person for that small meeting
Whose future you think is bright?
If I have these two sons, I would think it's the first one. I will however continually nag him to clean the room.
The second one, I would try to manage by little more than just nagging.
Suppose you have two sons in college:
First one - sloppy in room maintenance - I mean filthy room conditions, but works very hard, great in studies, not in trouble with others around him, good business brain too
Second one - clean room, much less studies, gets in fights all the time with class mates, does not care about what others think about him however pretends to be highly cultured when you meet him in person for that small meeting
Whose future you think is bright?
If I have these two sons, I would think it's the first one. I will however continually nag him to clean the room.
The second one, I would try to manage by little more than just nagging.
#352 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 4:24:52 pm
Re: # 351
I followed the case. Here's what I know:
Serving his fourth term in Haryana's legislature, Chand Mohan was widely touted by his supporters as a future chief minister. But soon after the conversion announcement, he was removed from his job and relieved of his security guards. The Haryana government also dismissed his new wife, 37-year-old lawyer Anuradha Bali, from her position as the state's assistant advocate-general.
The official reason for both sackings was that Mr. Mohan, now known as Chand Mohammad, and Ms. Bali, who now goes by the Muslim name of Fiza, failed to perform their government duties. Both dispute this assessment. "This was all just because we became Muslim. There is no other good reason," Fiza told the media recently.
What Chand underestimated was how crucial religious identity remains in a country that bills itself as the world's largest secular democracy. Mr. Mohan's supporters, who have followed the twists and turns of the case reported by the Indian media, largely agree that religion played a huge role in the drama as it unfolded. Their logic: It was politically untenable to have a Muslim deputy chief minister in a state like Haryana, which was the scene of some of the worst violence between Hindus and Muslims during partition along religious lines in 1947.
As a result of the tremendous social hostility and family pressures and extreme stress, both Chand and Fiza are now apparently estranged and physically separated from each other. Fiza has been hospitalized after an overdose of sleeping pills and Chand's whereabouts are unknown.
Here's the latest from Times of India on this story:
It seems Chand Mohammed has to still wait for a final word from his second wife Fiza, even after he apologised to win over his "lost
love".
A day after former Haryana Deputy CM Chand Mohammad reached her house for a "fresh start" in their on-and-off togetherness, Fiza on Monday said she has not yet pardoned him as she was still apprehensive of the "genuineness" of his confession.
Fiza, a former state assistant advocate general, told reporters at her residence, "I want to forgive him as my mother
is also insisting me to do so. But I am still apprehensive of his statements when I recall the past experience."
"I still doubt if he has again come to me as part of some conspiracy or game plan. But, he is repeatedly seeking forgiveness for all his past mistakes," she said adding their relationship could not be broken over "silly mistakes".
She, however, did not specify when Chand can expect a "favourable" answer. "Wait. Time will tell as such decisions take time," she said.
Chand, 43-year-old Congress legislator from Kalka, however looked more relaxed and confident than his appearance before media yesterday.
"I'm seeking unconditional apology, but she is still non-committal," Chand, who had deserted her weeks after the marriage and divorced her, said.
This story is still unfolding. How it will end remains a mystery. But it does raise serious questions about the reality of the secular nature of India's democracy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I followed the case. Here's what I know:
Serving his fourth term in Haryana's legislature, Chand Mohan was widely touted by his supporters as a future chief minister. But soon after the conversion announcement, he was removed from his job and relieved of his security guards. The Haryana government also dismissed his new wife, 37-year-old lawyer Anuradha Bali, from her position as the state's assistant advocate-general.
The official reason for both sackings was that Mr. Mohan, now known as Chand Mohammad, and Ms. Bali, who now goes by the Muslim name of Fiza, failed to perform their government duties. Both dispute this assessment. "This was all just because we became Muslim. There is no other good reason," Fiza told the media recently.
What Chand underestimated was how crucial religious identity remains in a country that bills itself as the world's largest secular democracy. Mr. Mohan's supporters, who have followed the twists and turns of the case reported by the Indian media, largely agree that religion played a huge role in the drama as it unfolded. Their logic: It was politically untenable to have a Muslim deputy chief minister in a state like Haryana, which was the scene of some of the worst violence between Hindus and Muslims during partition along religious lines in 1947.
As a result of the tremendous social hostility and family pressures and extreme stress, both Chand and Fiza are now apparently estranged and physically separated from each other. Fiza has been hospitalized after an overdose of sleeping pills and Chand's whereabouts are unknown.
Here's the latest from Times of India on this story:
It seems Chand Mohammed has to still wait for a final word from his second wife Fiza, even after he apologised to win over his "lost
love".
A day after former Haryana Deputy CM Chand Mohammad reached her house for a "fresh start" in their on-and-off togetherness, Fiza on Monday said she has not yet pardoned him as she was still apprehensive of the "genuineness" of his confession.
Fiza, a former state assistant advocate general, told reporters at her residence, "I want to forgive him as my mother
is also insisting me to do so. But I am still apprehensive of his statements when I recall the past experience."
"I still doubt if he has again come to me as part of some conspiracy or game plan. But, he is repeatedly seeking forgiveness for all his past mistakes," she said adding their relationship could not be broken over "silly mistakes".
She, however, did not specify when Chand can expect a "favourable" answer. "Wait. Time will tell as such decisions take time," she said.
Chand, 43-year-old Congress legislator from Kalka, however looked more relaxed and confident than his appearance before media yesterday.
"I'm seeking unconditional apology, but she is still non-committal," Chand, who had deserted her weeks after the marriage and divorced her, said.
This story is still unfolding. How it will end remains a mystery. But it does raise serious questions about the reality of the secular nature of India's democracy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#351 Posted by ellora on June 29, 2009 4:07:43 pm
#343:
Riaz ji, you seem unaware of the basic facts of this case. Both miya/biwi were Hindu until the biwiji wanted miya sahab to dump his existing wife. Since divorce laws for Hindus tend to be stricter (must be discrimination against Muslims. :-)) and marriage laws for Hindus outlaw polygamy (which Muslims must still suffer under in India. More discrimination.) they both converted to Islam to take advantage of its 'easier' personal laws.
Not sure how you concluded Chand-bhai was *forced* to ditch his wife. He did it of his own free will. And in fact, as of two weeks ago he has changed his mind yet again and gone back to his beloved Fiza biwi.
Spare me more of your pointless questions. The democracies of east and west await your eagle eyed scrutiny.
Riaz ji, you seem unaware of the basic facts of this case. Both miya/biwi were Hindu until the biwiji wanted miya sahab to dump his existing wife. Since divorce laws for Hindus tend to be stricter (must be discrimination against Muslims. :-)) and marriage laws for Hindus outlaw polygamy (which Muslims must still suffer under in India. More discrimination.) they both converted to Islam to take advantage of its 'easier' personal laws.
Not sure how you concluded Chand-bhai was *forced* to ditch his wife. He did it of his own free will. And in fact, as of two weeks ago he has changed his mind yet again and gone back to his beloved Fiza biwi.
Spare me more of your pointless questions. The democracies of east and west await your eagle eyed scrutiny.
#350 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 3:59:18 pm
Re: # 347
If you haven't been to India lately, you ain't seen nothing yet. UNICEF says India is behind Pakistan, Bangladesh, even Afghanistan in terms of basic sanitation. And UNICEF is not kidding. You can feel it as soon as you arrive in any major Indian city.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
If you haven't been to India lately, you ain't seen nothing yet. UNICEF says India is behind Pakistan, Bangladesh, even Afghanistan in terms of basic sanitation. And UNICEF is not kidding. You can feel it as soon as you arrive in any major Indian city.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#349 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 3:56:17 pm
Re: # 348
It's Zakaria's blind love (like other western Indophiles') for India that puts India in the same category as US, China and Japan. The truth is that, unlike the other three nations, India is still a poor, illiterate, backward, third world nation which still needs to deal with basic issues of poverty, hunger, literacy and basic sanitation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
It's Zakaria's blind love (like other western Indophiles') for India that puts India in the same category as US, China and Japan. The truth is that, unlike the other three nations, India is still a poor, illiterate, backward, third world nation which still needs to deal with basic issues of poverty, hunger, literacy and basic sanitation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#348 Posted by Pardesi on June 29, 2009 3:42:09 pm
#346 Riaz
Fareed Zakaria discusses all the potential strengths and weaknesses of 4 economic powers of future - USA, Japan, China and India. Would you call him blind lover of US or China too.
I guess what you might be upset at is the fact that he sees more potential in India than any of your chosen Ummah buddies.
It's OK if other folks differ with you. Be nice to them :)
Fareed Zakaria discusses all the potential strengths and weaknesses of 4 economic powers of future - USA, Japan, China and India. Would you call him blind lover of US or China too.
I guess what you might be upset at is the fact that he sees more potential in India than any of your chosen Ummah buddies.
It's OK if other folks differ with you. Be nice to them :)
#347 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 3:18:20 pm
#346 i am glad the streets in Pakistan are cleaned with windex every day.
#346 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 3:15:40 pm
Re: # 330
Lack of cleanliness, particularly public squalor, in India is age old and well known.
Even a blind India lover and promoter like Fareed Zakaria talks about it in his book Post-American World.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Lack of cleanliness, particularly public squalor, in India is age old and well known.
Even a blind India lover and promoter like Fareed Zakaria talks about it in his book Post-American World.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#345 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 3:05:18 pm
Re: # 322
Yes, I do. Muslim girls occasionally do marry non-Muslim Pakistanis while in Pakistan. But such cases are few because Pakistani non-Muslims, like minorities elsewhere, themselves prefer to marry within their own religion.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Yes, I do. Muslim girls occasionally do marry non-Muslim Pakistanis while in Pakistan. But such cases are few because Pakistani non-Muslims, like minorities elsewhere, themselves prefer to marry within their own religion.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#344 Posted by malikrashid on June 29, 2009 3:02:30 pm
Re: # 340
This sense of izzat is peculiarly Indian. It has nothing to do with muslims living in Saudi Arabia or some other countries. Khandaan, Zaat and codes of honour representing them are typically Indian and Indian muslims react on these because they are Indians not because they are muslims. Hence Jinnah's distancing from her daughter because she married a non-muslim must have been prompted by his political status, which he needed to defend in the eyes of common Indians. It is not un-heard of that muslim girls married non-muslims. A popular TV talk-show host in Pakistan is married to a white man. A friend of mine ( a girl) married a Indian-hindu artist in the 80s.
This sense of izzat is peculiarly Indian. It has nothing to do with muslims living in Saudi Arabia or some other countries. Khandaan, Zaat and codes of honour representing them are typically Indian and Indian muslims react on these because they are Indians not because they are muslims. Hence Jinnah's distancing from her daughter because she married a non-muslim must have been prompted by his political status, which he needed to defend in the eyes of common Indians. It is not un-heard of that muslim girls married non-muslims. A popular TV talk-show host in Pakistan is married to a white man. A friend of mine ( a girl) married a Indian-hindu artist in the 80s.
#343 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 2:59:20 pm
Re: # 335
Why was Chand fired in the first place?
Why was he forced to ditch his new wife?
Did this have anything to do with conversion?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Why was Chand fired in the first place?
Why was he forced to ditch his new wife?
Did this have anything to do with conversion?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#342 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 2:53:05 pm
Alephdud: when i need help looking up wikipedia, I'll ask you.
#341 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 2:50:10 pm
chacha32 #340
{{This is the first time I am hearing of this "Hindu Code Bill", and I assume it is some kind of a religious or legal provision. I wonder how many hindus know of its existence, let alone have read it, let alone go by its rules.}}
The 'Hindu Code Bills', which have been the law of the land for more than fifty years, are the acts which govern personal law (marriage, divorce, succession, etc.) for Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists in India. Whether or not Hindus have read them, they would have to abide by their provisions when their personal affairs are adjudicated in India.
{{This is the first time I am hearing of this "Hindu Code Bill", and I assume it is some kind of a religious or legal provision. I wonder how many hindus know of its existence, let alone have read it, let alone go by its rules.}}
The 'Hindu Code Bills', which have been the law of the land for more than fifty years, are the acts which govern personal law (marriage, divorce, succession, etc.) for Hindus, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists in India. Whether or not Hindus have read them, they would have to abide by their provisions when their personal affairs are adjudicated in India.
#340 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 2:33:27 pm
#337 dm sahib: This is the first time I am hearing of this "Hindu Code Bill", and I assume it is some kind of a religious or legal provision. I wonder how many hindus know of its existence, let alone have read it, let alone go by its rules.
in fact, the basic impression i have seen hindus giving on chowk is that there are no strict rules on behavior in hinduism.
#338 there is no direct contradiction, i will grant you. But your remaining silent on this early on and presenting "khandani izzat" as a reason.
All these double negatives and misleading reasons ("khandani izzat" without specifically accepting or rejecting the point under discussion) are in contrast to the candor with which you had spoken out earlier, I am sorry to say.
I shall leave you with this thought, DM sahib: I am sure you really believe that jinnah rejected his daughter's marriage outside the faith due to some kind of new-found desire to follow what you chose to call "Islamic Law". And you are determined to stick with this no matter what common sense, let alone my humble self, tells you. No skin off my back sir.
in fact, the basic impression i have seen hindus giving on chowk is that there are no strict rules on behavior in hinduism.
#338 there is no direct contradiction, i will grant you. But your remaining silent on this early on and presenting "khandani izzat" as a reason.
All these double negatives and misleading reasons ("khandani izzat" without specifically accepting or rejecting the point under discussion) are in contrast to the candor with which you had spoken out earlier, I am sorry to say.
I shall leave you with this thought, DM sahib: I am sure you really believe that jinnah rejected his daughter's marriage outside the faith due to some kind of new-found desire to follow what you chose to call "Islamic Law". And you are determined to stick with this no matter what common sense, let alone my humble self, tells you. No skin off my back sir.
#339 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 2:20:27 pm
AlephNull#336:
Yes, I am aware of that case and also that the Ghazi was probably hanged by the British government on a murder charge. My comment was in general and it is possible that the author of "Rangeela Rasool" was an Arya Samaji who were less respectful of other religions.
Yes, I am aware of that case and also that the Ghazi was probably hanged by the British government on a murder charge. My comment was in general and it is possible that the author of "Rangeela Rasool" was an Arya Samaji who were less respectful of other religions.
#338 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 2:14:16 pm
tahmed32:
"dm sahib: and as for your last sentence in #331, you wrote in #276 exactly what you now say you would never write:"
In my mind, there is no contradiction. "Khandani izzat is not unrelated to marrying a "neech zaat".
"dm sahib: and as for your last sentence in #331, you wrote in #276 exactly what you now say you would never write:"
In my mind, there is no contradiction. "Khandani izzat is not unrelated to marrying a "neech zaat".
#337 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 2:11:59 pm
tahmed32:
"#331 let me ask a third time then sir: if islam had something to do with jinnah disowning his daughter for marrying a non-muslim, what about the case of hindu parents disowning their daughters for for marrying a non-hindu?"
Hindus are governed by the Hindu Code Bill and none of its provisions stop a Hindu man or woman to marry a person of other religion.
Both Catholic and Judaism also have strict religious laws regarding marriage. You might say that Hinduism is a primitive faith and never developed the sophistication to develop a legal code, unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism who were sent prophets bearing laws. That is, until the Hindu Code Bill came along.
"#331 let me ask a third time then sir: if islam had something to do with jinnah disowning his daughter for marrying a non-muslim, what about the case of hindu parents disowning their daughters for for marrying a non-hindu?"
Hindus are governed by the Hindu Code Bill and none of its provisions stop a Hindu man or woman to marry a person of other religion.
Both Catholic and Judaism also have strict religious laws regarding marriage. You might say that Hinduism is a primitive faith and never developed the sophistication to develop a legal code, unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism who were sent prophets bearing laws. That is, until the Hindu Code Bill came along.
#336 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 2:07:35 pm
dost-mittar #296:
I was being derisive (incidentally, are you aware of the case of Ghazi Ilamdin Shaheed who despatched a certain Rajpal for publishing that blasphemous work 'Rangila Rasul'?). FYI, in #277 I asked a rude but factually-based question about whether Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was exhibiting jehalat when he had the 360 idols of traditional Arabian deities removed from the Kaaba and smashed. Some clodhopper presumably found the parallel to Advani way too close for comfort, red-flagged my post and had me banned.
My question was factual in that it referred to purported actions of the Messenger of Allah that are documented in the Islamic canon, and that can be found in widely-available biographies such as the one by Glubb. It is clear that Muslims regard any discourse that places Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and the Perfect Religion in an unfavourable light as 'slander', even if it draws from material that forms the backbone of their own traditions. So much for the Islamic respect for truth.
I was being derisive (incidentally, are you aware of the case of Ghazi Ilamdin Shaheed who despatched a certain Rajpal for publishing that blasphemous work 'Rangila Rasul'?). FYI, in #277 I asked a rude but factually-based question about whether Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was exhibiting jehalat when he had the 360 idols of traditional Arabian deities removed from the Kaaba and smashed. Some clodhopper presumably found the parallel to Advani way too close for comfort, red-flagged my post and had me banned.
My question was factual in that it referred to purported actions of the Messenger of Allah that are documented in the Islamic canon, and that can be found in widely-available biographies such as the one by Glubb. It is clear that Muslims regard any discourse that places Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and the Perfect Religion in an unfavourable light as 'slander', even if it draws from material that forms the backbone of their own traditions. So much for the Islamic respect for truth.
#335 Posted by ellora on June 29, 2009 1:55:38 pm
#313:
Have you heard about the firing of Haryana Deputy CM Chand Mohan because he married Fiza Mohammad? Why was there such a scandal and uproar in a "secular" democracy?
Because his conversion was just so he could marry a second time. And then he ditched the new wife and returned to previous wife. I am not sure if this is standard accepted behaviour in Pakistan but it causes comment in India.
Have you heard about the firing of Haryana Deputy CM Chand Mohan because he married Fiza Mohammad? Why was there such a scandal and uproar in a "secular" democracy?
Because his conversion was just so he could marry a second time. And then he ditched the new wife and returned to previous wife. I am not sure if this is standard accepted behaviour in Pakistan but it causes comment in India.
#334 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 1:54:37 pm
dm sahib: and as for your last sentence in #331, you wrote in #276 exactly what you now say you would never write:
"And yes, there are many Hindus and Sikhs who would abandon or even want to kill their daughter/sister for marrying a person of low caste. Khandaan ki izzat ka sawaal hai. (bewildered ikon). " (I add the emphasis because I pointed this out before too).
"And yes, there are many Hindus and Sikhs who would abandon or even want to kill their daughter/sister for marrying a person of low caste. Khandaan ki izzat ka sawaal hai. (bewildered ikon). " (I add the emphasis because I pointed this out before too).
#333 Posted by ellora on June 29, 2009 1:52:09 pm
#272:
this is why you see wives of Salim Khan, Nawab of Pataudi, Shah Rukh Khan, etc. still keeping their old religion.
Not sure about the others but Sharmila Tagore had to convert and change her name (to Ayesha) when she married.
this is why you see wives of Salim Khan, Nawab of Pataudi, Shah Rukh Khan, etc. still keeping their old religion.
Not sure about the others but Sharmila Tagore had to convert and change her name (to Ayesha) when she married.
#332 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 1:47:48 pm
#331 let me ask a third time then sir: if islam had something to do with jinnah disowning his daughter for marrying a non-muslim, what about the case of hindu parents disowning their daughters for for marrying a non-hindu?
(and my remaining points about your attributing jinnahs rejection of the marriage to "islamic law" remained unanswered by you still).
(and my remaining points about your attributing jinnahs rejection of the marriage to "islamic law" remained unanswered by you still).
#331 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 1:39:41 pm
tahmed saheb#324:
Sorry to disappoint you but I cannot say what I do not believe to be factual. I don't think that any Muslim in Pakistan would marry what you call a "choorHa", but I will never attribute this to Islam. But when a Muslim man disowns his daughter for marrying a non-muslim I would not say that Islam has nothing to do with it. Similarly, when a Hindu brahmin refuses to marry his daughter to a lower caste Hindu, I would never say that religion has nothing to do with it.
Sorry to disappoint you but I cannot say what I do not believe to be factual. I don't think that any Muslim in Pakistan would marry what you call a "choorHa", but I will never attribute this to Islam. But when a Muslim man disowns his daughter for marrying a non-muslim I would not say that Islam has nothing to do with it. Similarly, when a Hindu brahmin refuses to marry his daughter to a lower caste Hindu, I would never say that religion has nothing to do with it.
#330 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:38:14 pm
Re: # 328 dude
and the sanitation crisis as well... that's the big one for him...
and the sanitation crisis as well... that's the big one for him...
#329 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:36:41 pm
Re: # 327 mullah32
and he sent his lota to give us the update?... ok, thanks.
and he sent his lota to give us the update?... ok, thanks.
#328 Posted by dude40000 on June 29, 2009 1:36:38 pm
Re: # 326
Major Saab - Ap kamal ke ho.
Riaz will come back soon and talk about the power/water crisis in Delhi in response to your arguments.
Major Saab - Ap kamal ke ho.
Riaz will come back soon and talk about the power/water crisis in Delhi in response to your arguments.
#327 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 1:34:22 pm
#326 actually, he got smart and realized he was better off arguing with his chihuahua.
#325 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:25:41 pm
Re: # 324 sri ram mullah32
[..these "internet warriors" would never have the guts to write the way they write in real life...]
And why would that be?... are you going kill them if they had guts to write bad thing about Mo,pubh...
[..these "internet warriors" would never have the guts to write the way they write in real life...]
And why would that be?... are you going kill them if they had guts to write bad thing about Mo,pubh...
#324 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 1:22:18 pm
#294 nice cop out, dm sahib. you didnt respond to any point i made - and simply re-iterated your usual "islam is the problem" line while remaining quiet on hinduism.
sigh, at least i tried.
PS: on your post next to it, where you say the bs about muhammed that hindus write is due to "new knowledge" about him from the internet has to be the most absurd excuse for abusive behavior on the inernet. how about something simpler - these "internet warriors" would never have the guts to write the way they write in real life.
sigh, at least i tried.
PS: on your post next to it, where you say the bs about muhammed that hindus write is due to "new knowledge" about him from the internet has to be the most absurd excuse for abusive behavior on the inernet. how about something simpler - these "internet warriors" would never have the guts to write the way they write in real life.
#323 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:20:07 pm
Re: # 320 raiz
wow - man, you pakis are such good people...
that still doesn't answer my question - will a bhindoo/chura/bhangi/christain be popular in pakiland if he would take a moslem wife?...
wow - man, you pakis are such good people...
that still doesn't answer my question - will a bhindoo/chura/bhangi/christain be popular in pakiland if he would take a moslem wife?...
#322 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 1:19:33 pm
Riaz#320:
"I have Pakistani friends who have married Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. from different parts of the wold, including India"
Nobody is questioning that Muslims marry non-muslims, we all know of several such cases. However, do you know of any Pakistani female who has married a Hindu, Sikh or Christian male and is still living in Pakistan. Since you said that the BJP Muslims have Hindu wives to gain popularity, how much popularity would a Hindu Pakistani gain by having a Muslim wife (presuming this is a possibility).
"I have Pakistani friends who have married Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. from different parts of the wold, including India"
Nobody is questioning that Muslims marry non-muslims, we all know of several such cases. However, do you know of any Pakistani female who has married a Hindu, Sikh or Christian male and is still living in Pakistan. Since you said that the BJP Muslims have Hindu wives to gain popularity, how much popularity would a Hindu Pakistani gain by having a Muslim wife (presuming this is a possibility).
#321 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:14:55 pm
Re: # 318 raiz
Dude, I agree completely... it's all because of hindooo oppression...
I just wanted to know if there are other such muslim people missing from Si Valley... if they do, then I wanted to see if bhindoos are responsible for that as well... taht's all...
Dude, I agree completely... it's all because of hindooo oppression...
I just wanted to know if there are other such muslim people missing from Si Valley... if they do, then I wanted to see if bhindoos are responsible for that as well... taht's all...
#320 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 1:12:41 pm
Re: # 316
We don;t classify people by cast.
But many Pakistanis do marry outside their religion. I have Pakistani friends who have married Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. from different parts of the wold, including India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
We don;t classify people by cast.
But many Pakistanis do marry outside their religion. I have Pakistani friends who have married Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. from different parts of the wold, including India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#319 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:10:42 pm
Re: # 317
yep commies supported pakiland where later they were wiped out... Mullahs opposed pakiland, but now they rule the roost...
Ain't that wonderful... Jinnah jindabad...
yep commies supported pakiland where later they were wiped out... Mullahs opposed pakiland, but now they rule the roost...
Ain't that wonderful... Jinnah jindabad...
#318 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 1:10:03 pm
Re: # 314
You are misleading as usual, not a surprise.
I am comparing the lack of Indian Muslim achievement in South Asia AND other parts of the world. It is UNIVERSAL.
As to the migration patterns, they go by regions and the conditions and opportunities within each nation. South Asians tend to migrate much more than people of other regions, for obvious reasons. Almost 80-90% of the H-1 visas in US go to Indians, very very few of them Muslim.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
You are misleading as usual, not a surprise.
I am comparing the lack of Indian Muslim achievement in South Asia AND other parts of the world. It is UNIVERSAL.
As to the migration patterns, they go by regions and the conditions and opportunities within each nation. South Asians tend to migrate much more than people of other regions, for obvious reasons. Almost 80-90% of the H-1 visas in US go to Indians, very very few of them Muslim.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#317 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 1:08:44 pm
Riaz#315:
I believe that the Communist Party of India supported the demand for Pakistan, though not all communists supported it.
I believe that the Communist Party of India supported the demand for Pakistan, though not all communists supported it.
#316 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:07:17 pm
Re: # 313 raiz
I know, that's horrible... these bhindoos are crazy, they fired that guy - can you believe these un-secular bhindoos...
But forget the bhindoos, they are bad people... let's talk about the pure people of pakiland - will a bhindoo/chura/bhangi/christain be popular in pakiland if he would take a moslem wife?...
I know, that's horrible... these bhindoos are crazy, they fired that guy - can you believe these un-secular bhindoos...
But forget the bhindoos, they are bad people... let's talk about the pure people of pakiland - will a bhindoo/chura/bhangi/christain be popular in pakiland if he would take a moslem wife?...
#315 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 1:03:29 pm
Re: # 312
You should also note that most of the top Mullahs did not support Jinnah or Pakistan...Madani, Nadvi, Maudoodi etc. So Jinnah and Pakistan faced strong opposition from both left and right.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
You should also note that most of the top Mullahs did not support Jinnah or Pakistan...Madani, Nadvi, Maudoodi etc. So Jinnah and Pakistan faced strong opposition from both left and right.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#314 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 1:03:18 pm
Re: # 311 Raiz
you don't have to convince me dude... I know it, missing moslems in silicon valley tells the horrible tale of their oppression in india...
I am sure you see many indonesians, saudis, yemeni, iraqi muslim professionals in the si valley... But I don't, I don't know why - there ain't no hindooo oppression in those places...
bummer...
you don't have to convince me dude... I know it, missing moslems in silicon valley tells the horrible tale of their oppression in india...
I am sure you see many indonesians, saudis, yemeni, iraqi muslim professionals in the si valley... But I don't, I don't know why - there ain't no hindooo oppression in those places...
bummer...
#313 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:59:52 pm
Re: # 310
Have you heard about the firing of Haryana Deputy CM Chand Mohan because he married Fiza Mohammad? Why was there such a scandal and uproar in a "secular" democracy?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Have you heard about the firing of Haryana Deputy CM Chand Mohan because he married Fiza Mohammad? Why was there such a scandal and uproar in a "secular" democracy?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#312 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 12:57:05 pm
malik saab#307:
You are right but Hasrat Mohani was not one of those who opposed the partition. And many Muslim communists, like Saifuddin Kichloo and Khwaja Ahmad Abbas remained in India. As you perhaps know, Sahir Ludhyanvi, another communist, went to Pakistan and came back; maybe Manto should have done so, too.
You are right but Hasrat Mohani was not one of those who opposed the partition. And many Muslim communists, like Saifuddin Kichloo and Khwaja Ahmad Abbas remained in India. As you perhaps know, Sahir Ludhyanvi, another communist, went to Pakistan and came back; maybe Manto should have done so, too.
#311 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:55:48 pm
Re: # 308
I speak from my own experience of decades of living in Si valley and visiting India and Pakistan many many times.
Even though the population of Muslims in India probably exceeds Muslims in Pakistan, there are very few successful Indian Muslim professionals I have seen compared to many successful Pakistani Muslim professionals.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I speak from my own experience of decades of living in Si valley and visiting India and Pakistan many many times.
Even though the population of Muslims in India probably exceeds Muslims in Pakistan, there are very few successful Indian Muslim professionals I have seen compared to many successful Pakistani Muslim professionals.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#310 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 12:51:36 pm
Re: # 305 raiz
[Khans of Bollywood, know how to be popular in India. So they take Hindu wives to prove their loyalty to India...]
Will I be popular in pakiland if I take a paki wife?... Would a hindoo or Bhangi or Christian be popular in pakiland if they take moslem wives?...
How about that popular cristian cricket captain? Did he take a moslem wife?... wait, he doesn't have to, he ain't no christain no more.... LOL
[Khans of Bollywood, know how to be popular in India. So they take Hindu wives to prove their loyalty to India...]
Will I be popular in pakiland if I take a paki wife?... Would a hindoo or Bhangi or Christian be popular in pakiland if they take moslem wives?...
How about that popular cristian cricket captain? Did he take a moslem wife?... wait, he doesn't have to, he ain't no christain no more.... LOL
#309 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:47:21 pm
Re: # 306
Talking about free speech, have your heard about crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Talking about free speech, have your heard about crying "Fire!" in a crowded theater?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#308 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 12:47:16 pm
Re: # 303 raiz
[...you are confirming that's normal hiring practice in Delhi?...]
well, duh... do you have any doubts on hindooo oppression of moslems?... I don't, it's a well-established fact... I mean, look at yourself, you are where you are only because you are a paki... an indian muslim can only dream of being as successful as you...
Tell you what - the other day, we were compiling successful indian moselms vs successful paki muslims... The list on indian side was way too long - I don't how that happened - with all tha oppression, how the ehck so many moslems succeeded...
But for some emabarassing reason - the list on paki side was way to small... Should we add your name to paki list?... you said you invented the micro-processor or something...
Let me know...
[...you are confirming that's normal hiring practice in Delhi?...]
well, duh... do you have any doubts on hindooo oppression of moslems?... I don't, it's a well-established fact... I mean, look at yourself, you are where you are only because you are a paki... an indian muslim can only dream of being as successful as you...
Tell you what - the other day, we were compiling successful indian moselms vs successful paki muslims... The list on indian side was way too long - I don't how that happened - with all tha oppression, how the ehck so many moslems succeeded...
But for some emabarassing reason - the list on paki side was way to small... Should we add your name to paki list?... you said you invented the micro-processor or something...
Let me know...
#307 Posted by malikrashid on June 29, 2009 12:38:30 pm
Re: # 300
Dost Mittar saheb,
The fact that a large number of muslims stayed in the states of UP and Bihar instead of migrating to Pakistan begs the question if the demand for a seperate homeland was unanimous among muslims. Events around partition were so forceful that Communist Party of India had to adjust to the fact by sending muslim communists to Pakistan and vice versa. Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and Sheikh Abdullah were opposed to partition.
Dost Mittar saheb,
The fact that a large number of muslims stayed in the states of UP and Bihar instead of migrating to Pakistan begs the question if the demand for a seperate homeland was unanimous among muslims. Events around partition were so forceful that Communist Party of India had to adjust to the fact by sending muslim communists to Pakistan and vice versa. Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and Sheikh Abdullah were opposed to partition.
#306 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 12:37:52 pm
Riaz#302:
"So you believe all the slander about Islam you see on the Internet? Then you probably also enjoy reading slanderous works like The Divine Comedy? or Satanic Verses?"
No, nobody can believe everything on the Internet. The Point I was trying to make was that this information, including misinformation, has led to people asking the kind of questions that Aleph was referring to. And, no, I have not read either of the books you are mentioning.
Incidentally, I believe that the right of free speech is more important than my right to be not offended by it.
"So you believe all the slander about Islam you see on the Internet? Then you probably also enjoy reading slanderous works like The Divine Comedy? or Satanic Verses?"
No, nobody can believe everything on the Internet. The Point I was trying to make was that this information, including misinformation, has led to people asking the kind of questions that Aleph was referring to. And, no, I have not read either of the books you are mentioning.
Incidentally, I believe that the right of free speech is more important than my right to be not offended by it.
#305 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:37:08 pm
Re: # 298
Naqvi and Shanawaz, like the Khans of Bollywood, know how to be popular in India. So they take Hindu wives to prove their loyalty to India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Naqvi and Shanawaz, like the Khans of Bollywood, know how to be popular in India. So they take Hindu wives to prove their loyalty to India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#304 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:35:05 pm
Re: # 298
Don't forget the power of the "Gandhi" name that Feroze Khan took, as did Indira Gandhi. It's like a popular brand in India.
Most Indian voters are too ignorant to know where it came from. Many believe Indira was related to MK Gandhi.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Don't forget the power of the "Gandhi" name that Feroze Khan took, as did Indira Gandhi. It's like a popular brand in India.
Most Indian voters are too ignorant to know where it came from. Many believe Indira was related to MK Gandhi.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#303 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:31:03 pm
Re: # 301
So you are confirming that's normal hiring practice in Delhi? If it's a Muslim sounding name, either reject employment app or assign the person to the lowest possible rank?
Malik, Take note.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
So you are confirming that's normal hiring practice in Delhi? If it's a Muslim sounding name, either reject employment app or assign the person to the lowest possible rank?
Malik, Take note.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#302 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:27:02 pm
Re: # 296
So you believe all the slander about Islam you see on the Internet? Then you probably also enjoy reading slanderous works like The Divine Comedy? or Satanic Verses?
Some who engage in it do it simply to provoke Muslims or just to be outrageous.
And while laws exist against holocaust denial and racist speech, there are no hate speech laws in Europe or American that are applicable to insults against Muhammad.
Insults against prophet Mohamed are not a recent phenomenon. You can learn more about it by reading "Muhammad in Europe" by Minou Reeves.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
So you believe all the slander about Islam you see on the Internet? Then you probably also enjoy reading slanderous works like The Divine Comedy? or Satanic Verses?
Some who engage in it do it simply to provoke Muslims or just to be outrageous.
And while laws exist against holocaust denial and racist speech, there are no hate speech laws in Europe or American that are applicable to insults against Muhammad.
Insults against prophet Mohamed are not a recent phenomenon. You can learn more about it by reading "Muhammad in Europe" by Minou Reeves.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#301 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 12:22:50 pm
Re: # 297 raiz
[...Indian Muslims would be treated any better if India had not been divided...]
This I agree... without partition - riaz haq himself would have been a peon[thus giving peons a bad name] serving his hindooo masters in gallis of old delhi... Parition saved him...
[...Indian Muslims would be treated any better if India had not been divided...]
This I agree... without partition - riaz haq himself would have been a peon[thus giving peons a bad name] serving his hindooo masters in gallis of old delhi... Parition saved him...
#300 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 12:17:56 pm
malik saab#289:
Mostly factual post. Some corrections. Hasrat Mohani was not only a communist but also a member of the Muslim League and supported the creation of Pakistan. He was one of the several Muslim Leaguers who decided to stay in India after their demand were met and, in my opinion, created doubts in the minds of non-muslims about their true loyalty. And despite his leftist leanings, he refused to sign the Indian constitution because he thought that it was not accomodating enough to Muslims. Josh actually came back from Pakistan on Nehru's insistence but decided to go to Pakistan again for the same reason that Manto did, they thought, in my opinion, that after the partition, Muslims in India will not be trusted by the majority even though their friends and admirers were in India.
Mostly factual post. Some corrections. Hasrat Mohani was not only a communist but also a member of the Muslim League and supported the creation of Pakistan. He was one of the several Muslim Leaguers who decided to stay in India after their demand were met and, in my opinion, created doubts in the minds of non-muslims about their true loyalty. And despite his leftist leanings, he refused to sign the Indian constitution because he thought that it was not accomodating enough to Muslims. Josh actually came back from Pakistan on Nehru's insistence but decided to go to Pakistan again for the same reason that Manto did, they thought, in my opinion, that after the partition, Muslims in India will not be trusted by the majority even though their friends and admirers were in India.
#299 Posted by malikrashid on June 29, 2009 12:13:01 pm
Re: # 291
CIA factbook on partition of India describes the measures British government in India adopted to perpetrate this division between hindu and muslims. Contradictions between the two to the point of hostility did pre-exist but there were deliberate moves on the part of the rulers to poison that divide.
CIA factbook on partition of India describes the measures British government in India adopted to perpetrate this division between hindu and muslims. Contradictions between the two to the point of hostility did pre-exist but there were deliberate moves on the part of the rulers to poison that divide.
#298 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 12:09:56 pm
Riaz#286:
"Why do you assume Jinnah forced Ruti's conversion?"
Call it my bias but I assume that all such conversions are not because a person suddenly rejects his religion of birth because he or she marries someone of a different faith.
Re. Indira Gandhi it is well known that she married a non-hindu and it did not make any difference to her popularity. Can you imagine Benazir Bhutto marrying a Christian and becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan? Even the BJP leaders like Naqvi and Shahnawaz(?) Hussain have Hindu wives.
"Why do you assume Jinnah forced Ruti's conversion?"
Call it my bias but I assume that all such conversions are not because a person suddenly rejects his religion of birth because he or she marries someone of a different faith.
Re. Indira Gandhi it is well known that she married a non-hindu and it did not make any difference to her popularity. Can you imagine Benazir Bhutto marrying a Christian and becoming the Prime Minister of Pakistan? Even the BJP leaders like Naqvi and Shahnawaz(?) Hussain have Hindu wives.
#297 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 12:09:52 pm
Re: # 289
I think you should visit India, talk with Muslims in Gujarat, Azamgarh, Kashmir and few other places and read Sachar Commission report to get some measure of what life would be like for you if you were not in Pakistan.
If that's not enough, read Pankaj Mishra, Yoginder Sikand and Asra Nomani to get different perspectives.
And don't assume that Indian Muslims would be treated any better if India had not been divided. The anti-Muslim forces such as the RSS (even Patel with Congress) were quite active and very violent well before the partition.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I think you should visit India, talk with Muslims in Gujarat, Azamgarh, Kashmir and few other places and read Sachar Commission report to get some measure of what life would be like for you if you were not in Pakistan.
If that's not enough, read Pankaj Mishra, Yoginder Sikand and Asra Nomani to get different perspectives.
And don't assume that Indian Muslims would be treated any better if India had not been divided. The anti-Muslim forces such as the RSS (even Patel with Congress) were quite active and very violent well before the partition.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#296 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 12:01:56 pm
AlephNull#281:
"These reprobate jahils insisted on asking inconvenient questions about the behaviour of the Holy Prophet, Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, etc.; they maintained that being truthful was more important than being polite."
I don't think that I agree with this. There were a very small minority (arya samajis?) who might have asked such questions. By and large, Hindus respected Prophet Mohammad and I do not see any disrespectful remarks about Prophet Mohammad even by the BJP types. However, the Internet has changed the picture quite a bit. A lot of information about the Prophet's life which was unknown to most non-muslims is now becoming a common knowledge and some people have started asking the kind of questions that you are referring to.
"These reprobate jahils insisted on asking inconvenient questions about the behaviour of the Holy Prophet, Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, etc.; they maintained that being truthful was more important than being polite."
I don't think that I agree with this. There were a very small minority (arya samajis?) who might have asked such questions. By and large, Hindus respected Prophet Mohammad and I do not see any disrespectful remarks about Prophet Mohammad even by the BJP types. However, the Internet has changed the picture quite a bit. A lot of information about the Prophet's life which was unknown to most non-muslims is now becoming a common knowledge and some people have started asking the kind of questions that you are referring to.
#295 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 11:57:32 am
Re: # 291
[...how easily people on chowk pass off their negative thoughts about other people's motivations...]
sri ram mullah32 - you are spot on... I mean, look at this guy GoldFinger - he has way too much "negative thoughts" about my motivations - he calls me "gutter mentality"... Me and gutter mentality?... how is that possible?... I am pure as driven snow - much like you, Mr sri ram mullah32...
yep, education system has definitely failed all these people...
[...how easily people on chowk pass off their negative thoughts about other people's motivations...]
sri ram mullah32 - you are spot on... I mean, look at this guy GoldFinger - he has way too much "negative thoughts" about my motivations - he calls me "gutter mentality"... Me and gutter mentality?... how is that possible?... I am pure as driven snow - much like you, Mr sri ram mullah32...
yep, education system has definitely failed all these people...
#294 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 11:57:11 am
tahmed32#278:
Actually, I agree with you re the tribal instinct. It is just that Islamic sharia has codified that tribal instinct which is enforced by sharia courts wherever they exist.
Actually, I agree with you re the tribal instinct. It is just that Islamic sharia has codified that tribal instinct which is enforced by sharia courts wherever they exist.
#293 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 11:55:50 am
#292 looks like we are on the same page, at least on this issue.
#292 Posted by dude40000 on June 29, 2009 11:54:07 am
Re: # 289
malikrashid - Isn't it so convinient each time to put blame on others for one's own shortcomings. Blaming Britishers for partition.
You didn't say it - but many other Pakistanis blame Jews-India-US for the insurgency in FATA/NWFP. Blaming U.S for creation of Mujahideen/Taliban.
Learn to take ownership of your own destiny.
malikrashid - Isn't it so convinient each time to put blame on others for one's own shortcomings. Blaming Britishers for partition.
You didn't say it - but many other Pakistanis blame Jews-India-US for the insurgency in FATA/NWFP. Blaming U.S for creation of Mujahideen/Taliban.
Learn to take ownership of your own destiny.
#291 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 11:52:02 am
#289 i am forever surprised by how easily people on chowk pass off their negative thoughts about other people's motivations as facts. is it really that hard to tell the difference? dost mittar was passing off his assumptions concerning how muslims think (i.e. driven by islamic law) vs how hindus think (i.e. driven by "khandaan ki izzat"). And now you come passing off your assumptions of what the brits were thinking as facts.
do you think it is our education system that has failed?
do you think it is our education system that has failed?
#290 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 11:50:58 am
Re: # 287 GF
[...gutter mentality ...]
Thanks man - coming from you, that's a compliment... :)
[...gutter mentality ...]
Thanks man - coming from you, that's a compliment... :)
#289 Posted by malikrashid on June 29, 2009 11:44:14 am
The British ruled India with their policy of 'Divide and conquer'. Before leaving, they divided India and that division still keeps hostilities alive and thriving.
All notable muslim leaders were against partition. Be it the clergy or the left leaders like Hasrat Mohani who visited Mathura once a year to pray. Nawab Ismail was an important leader of the Muslim league around partition. He never went to Pakistan. Josh Malihabadi wanted to stay in India but his pals in the government (Nehru and Azad) did not show him enough respect/sympathy so he moved to Pakistan where he lived a life in poverty and forced obscurity. Division of India was a colonial ploy which the British started practising by dividing Bengal in 1905. During the second world war, British had a strong supply of Punjabi muslim soldiers who were later rewarded, wheras the actual muslim leadership of Punjab like Saifuddin Kichlew were opposed to the division of India. The British identified and highlighted the difference between Hindus and Muslims, and politicians who helped achieve their goals were acknowledged while the rest were doomed.
All notable muslim leaders were against partition. Be it the clergy or the left leaders like Hasrat Mohani who visited Mathura once a year to pray. Nawab Ismail was an important leader of the Muslim league around partition. He never went to Pakistan. Josh Malihabadi wanted to stay in India but his pals in the government (Nehru and Azad) did not show him enough respect/sympathy so he moved to Pakistan where he lived a life in poverty and forced obscurity. Division of India was a colonial ploy which the British started practising by dividing Bengal in 1905. During the second world war, British had a strong supply of Punjabi muslim soldiers who were later rewarded, wheras the actual muslim leadership of Punjab like Saifuddin Kichlew were opposed to the division of India. The British identified and highlighted the difference between Hindus and Muslims, and politicians who helped achieve their goals were acknowledged while the rest were doomed.
#288 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 11:28:53 am
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#287 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 11:28:25 am
Re: # 285
Mirchi? Heck no dude...merely confirming the gutter mentality where so many of you guys live in your utter hopelessness and despair.
Mirchi? Heck no dude...merely confirming the gutter mentality where so many of you guys live in your utter hopelessness and despair.
#286 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 11:24:55 am
Re: # 275
Dost,
Why do you assume Jinnah forced Ruti's conversion? Is it not possible that Ruti converted on her own, as did Rana Liaquat Ali?
And can you see a political angle? Like Feroze Khan's name change to Feroze Gandhi? Or Nehu's interference in Vijay Laxmi's love for Syed Hussain?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Dost,
Why do you assume Jinnah forced Ruti's conversion? Is it not possible that Ruti converted on her own, as did Rana Liaquat Ali?
And can you see a political angle? Like Feroze Khan's name change to Feroze Gandhi? Or Nehu's interference in Vijay Laxmi's love for Syed Hussain?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#285 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 11:16:07 am
Re: # 282 GF
Ha ha - big time mirchi, Huh?... In my defense I also said Jinnah Jindabad, I thought that would lessen the pain of hearing the bitter truth, but I guess not...
Ha ha - big time mirchi, Huh?... In my defense I also said Jinnah Jindabad, I thought that would lessen the pain of hearing the bitter truth, but I guess not...
#284 Posted by CoolAL on June 29, 2009 11:14:48 am
I have one more point to make.
Actions speak louder than words.
Pakistan today has done EVERYTHING it accused India *WOULD* do if there was no partition despite *claiming* to do the opposite before the partition.
India *kept its word* and remained a secular, multi-religious, multi-cultural democracy.
You can spin everything whichever way you want. But the evidence is there for all to see.
Having said that, please understand I *DO NOT* support or have aspirations for a *reunion* with Pakistan under ANY circumstances.
Actions speak louder than words.
Pakistan today has done EVERYTHING it accused India *WOULD* do if there was no partition despite *claiming* to do the opposite before the partition.
India *kept its word* and remained a secular, multi-religious, multi-cultural democracy.
You can spin everything whichever way you want. But the evidence is there for all to see.
Having said that, please understand I *DO NOT* support or have aspirations for a *reunion* with Pakistan under ANY circumstances.
#283 Posted by CoolAL on June 29, 2009 11:04:34 am
I am not a BJP supporter. But if you visit north India, you will see mosques desecrating literally ALL of the holiest sites of Hinduism. Mathura, Varanasi and countless others.
There is clear and irrefutable historical evdence that these mosques were put there to terrorize hindus and demonstrate to them that the islamic sword was all powerful.
There is clearly no religious significance attached to any of these structures. Yet, the so called keepers of the faith have refused to peacefully settle this so called situation despite numerous attempts made. Large tracts of land was offered to relocate the Babri Masjid to an alternate site close by. They have all been rejected.
Had the so called "leaders" of the muslim community had any sense, they would have given in here and collected massively elsewhere. They could have easily won over almost ALL of the moderate and liberal elements of the BJP and the fringe would just be that -- a fringe.
But no, there HAD to be a jihad waged. Well, you reap what you sow. This is not the first time this kind of stupidity has been exhibited by the Muslim community. The Plestinians were offered enormous amount of land in 1948 to settle the issue amicably. Egged on by the Muslik Umma, they rejected the offer outright and took a maximalist position. They have been steadily losing ground and position since then. They could have developed as a country instead of what they are today.
When is a so called "Moderate" muslim from Pakistan going to acknowledge that it was wrong to reject every initiative to settle this like reasonable people. When will they step forward and admit in the large scheme of things the importance of Babri Masjid muslims and the importance of Ram temple at Ayodhya cannot be compared. When will you guys afford the same respect to other religions that you demand for Islam?
There is clear and irrefutable historical evdence that these mosques were put there to terrorize hindus and demonstrate to them that the islamic sword was all powerful.
There is clearly no religious significance attached to any of these structures. Yet, the so called keepers of the faith have refused to peacefully settle this so called situation despite numerous attempts made. Large tracts of land was offered to relocate the Babri Masjid to an alternate site close by. They have all been rejected.
Had the so called "leaders" of the muslim community had any sense, they would have given in here and collected massively elsewhere. They could have easily won over almost ALL of the moderate and liberal elements of the BJP and the fringe would just be that -- a fringe.
But no, there HAD to be a jihad waged. Well, you reap what you sow. This is not the first time this kind of stupidity has been exhibited by the Muslim community. The Plestinians were offered enormous amount of land in 1948 to settle the issue amicably. Egged on by the Muslik Umma, they rejected the offer outright and took a maximalist position. They have been steadily losing ground and position since then. They could have developed as a country instead of what they are today.
When is a so called "Moderate" muslim from Pakistan going to acknowledge that it was wrong to reject every initiative to settle this like reasonable people. When will they step forward and admit in the large scheme of things the importance of Babri Masjid muslims and the importance of Ram temple at Ayodhya cannot be compared. When will you guys afford the same respect to other religions that you demand for Islam?
#282 Posted by Goldfinger on June 29, 2009 10:39:05 am
Re: # 279
major...you nugget, one would assume that duplicity and dishonesty would come more from a people who created the religion of Thugee, in worship and for pleasure of Kali, and thus by duplicitous machinations the Thugs are the world's greatest serial killers holding the Guinness books world record for having killed millions of unwary innocents over the ages...
major...you nugget, one would assume that duplicity and dishonesty would come more from a people who created the religion of Thugee, in worship and for pleasure of Kali, and thus by duplicitous machinations the Thugs are the world's greatest serial killers holding the Guinness books world record for having killed millions of unwary innocents over the ages...
#281 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 10:33:40 am
major #279:
{{this is exactly why partition was necessary... There was no way to build a nation with a people who are inherently dishonest and duplicity is built into their beleif system...}}
No, you unrepentant kafir! That is not the true reason.
The problem lay with the primitive mindsets of non-Muslims who would not display respect for 'other religions' (i.e. Islam). These reprobate jahils insisted on asking inconvenient questions about the behaviour of the Holy Prophet, Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, etc.; they maintained that being truthful was more important than being polite. It is unreasonable to expect civilized Muslims to suffer such insolence in the name of free speech; they required their own polity where the Islam could rule without hindrance. Hence the need for partition and Pakistan.
{{this is exactly why partition was necessary... There was no way to build a nation with a people who are inherently dishonest and duplicity is built into their beleif system...}}
No, you unrepentant kafir! That is not the true reason.
The problem lay with the primitive mindsets of non-Muslims who would not display respect for 'other religions' (i.e. Islam). These reprobate jahils insisted on asking inconvenient questions about the behaviour of the Holy Prophet, Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, etc.; they maintained that being truthful was more important than being polite. It is unreasonable to expect civilized Muslims to suffer such insolence in the name of free speech; they required their own polity where the Islam could rule without hindrance. Hence the need for partition and Pakistan.
#280 Posted by nb on June 29, 2009 10:13:06 am
I notice major's last post was flagged and he will soon be banned for saying something which is often said about Indians by Pakistanis, but it is not acceptable in converse.
I don't agree with him about the rest, but good for Jinnah!
I don't agree with him about the rest, but good for Jinnah!
#279 Posted by major on June 29, 2009 10:01:52 am
Re: # 277
yep - this is exactly why partition was necessary... There was no way to build a nation with a people who are inherently dishonest and duplicity is built into their beleif system...
Jinnah Jindabad...
yep - this is exactly why partition was necessary... There was no way to build a nation with a people who are inherently dishonest and duplicity is built into their beleif system...
Jinnah Jindabad...
#278 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 10:01:04 am
DM #276 so jinnah's dislike of his daughter marrying outside her religion were motivated by "islamic law", and hindu/sikh dislike of their daughters marrying outside their caste is motivated by "khandaan ki izzat".
hmmmm...
you ignored the hindu dislike of daughters converting to islam that i mentioned. what do you ascribe that to?
also, earlier you had ascribed jinnah's call for pakistan as being politically motivated (like Advanis destruction of babri mosque). i am sure you are also aware of jinnah's disregard for other aspects of what i call "mullahism" - dietary habits, appearance, dress. so why do you think he suddenly developed a regard for "mullah islam" when it came to his daughters marriage? why not what i have been saying - namely tribal instincts, that exist in all of us to greater or lesser extents?
thanks in advance for your considered response.
hmmmm...
you ignored the hindu dislike of daughters converting to islam that i mentioned. what do you ascribe that to?
also, earlier you had ascribed jinnah's call for pakistan as being politically motivated (like Advanis destruction of babri mosque). i am sure you are also aware of jinnah's disregard for other aspects of what i call "mullahism" - dietary habits, appearance, dress. so why do you think he suddenly developed a regard for "mullah islam" when it came to his daughters marriage? why not what i have been saying - namely tribal instincts, that exist in all of us to greater or lesser extents?
thanks in advance for your considered response.
#277 Posted by AlephNull on June 29, 2009 9:51:59 am
dost-mittar #269, #272, #275, #276
dm-ji:
This is the typical Islamic pattern. Operational Islam - i.e. Islam the way it is practised in the real world by vast multitudes of the faithful - functions exactly in the manner you have described, with assorted dichotomies between men and women. It is one of the mechanisms by which the ummah expands its footprint.
When skeptical and unsympathetic kafirs point out the inequitable nature of the Islamic practices and the motivations behind them, assorted prevaricators appear claiming that these practices are not true Islam ('real Islam' / 'Quranic Islam' etc.), and presenting their own idiosyncratic interpretations of Islam, as though the issue should end there. But the usual behaviour of the Islamic collective continues despite this utterly dishonest apologetics.
dm-ji:
This is the typical Islamic pattern. Operational Islam - i.e. Islam the way it is practised in the real world by vast multitudes of the faithful - functions exactly in the manner you have described, with assorted dichotomies between men and women. It is one of the mechanisms by which the ummah expands its footprint.
When skeptical and unsympathetic kafirs point out the inequitable nature of the Islamic practices and the motivations behind them, assorted prevaricators appear claiming that these practices are not true Islam ('real Islam' / 'Quranic Islam' etc.), and presenting their own idiosyncratic interpretations of Islam, as though the issue should end there. But the usual behaviour of the Islamic collective continues despite this utterly dishonest apologetics.
#276 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 9:35:49 am
tahmed32#274:
I am aware that you do not think that sharia is part of Islam but I don't think that Jinnah was jahil in observing what he thought was Islamic law.
We all, at least I do, follow certain traditions even though we do not believe in them. For example, I went to Haridwar with my parents' ashes and immersed them in the Ganges even though I do not believe in such ritual and think that it is really bad for the river.
And yes, there are many Hindus and Sikhs who would abandon or even want to kill their daughter/sister for marrying a person of low caste. Khandaan ki izzat ka sawaal hai. (bewildered ikon).
I am aware that you do not think that sharia is part of Islam but I don't think that Jinnah was jahil in observing what he thought was Islamic law.
We all, at least I do, follow certain traditions even though we do not believe in them. For example, I went to Haridwar with my parents' ashes and immersed them in the Ganges even though I do not believe in such ritual and think that it is really bad for the river.
And yes, there are many Hindus and Sikhs who would abandon or even want to kill their daughter/sister for marrying a person of low caste. Khandaan ki izzat ka sawaal hai. (bewildered ikon).
#275 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 9:27:07 am
Riaz@373:
How old was Jinnah when he converted Rutti to Islam?
How old was Jinnah when he converted Rutti to Islam?
#274 Posted by tahmed32 on June 29, 2009 9:01:21 am
#272 dost mittar: when you say "Islam does not permit", then you need to be clear that you are referring to "Islam" practiced by the most jahil. There is certainly nothing in the Islam I believe in that places the asymmetrical restrictions on women that jahils put in. And jahils are as easily found among hindus as among muslims - one woman I know whose parents disowned her because she married a muslim, another friend whose mother never spoke to him after he "married below" his exalted brahmin caste.
Even a term like "secular" has different connotations - when Pakistanis say that Jinnah was a secular individual, that has a specific meaning in the context of Pakistani politics. It does not mean that he was some kind of a god, free from the tribal instinct that exists in all of us in greater or lesser degree.
Similarly, when you
Even a term like "secular" has different connotations - when Pakistanis say that Jinnah was a secular individual, that has a specific meaning in the context of Pakistani politics. It does not mean that he was some kind of a god, free from the tribal instinct that exists in all of us in greater or lesser degree.
Similarly, when you
#273 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 9:00:56 am
Re: # 272
Dost,
It's possible Jinnah became conservative in his old age, as do most people. But I don't think it was motivated by religion.
It is well known that Jinnah was not a practicing Muslim. That's why most Muslim religious leaders opposed him. Some even insulted him with the title of "Kafir-e-Azam" meaning the "Great Infidel". Others denigrated him as "Fasiq" and "Fajir"...which roughly means a wrongdoer or outlaw in Islam.
He was certainly not popular among the right-wing conservative Muslim religious leadership of India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Dost,
It's possible Jinnah became conservative in his old age, as do most people. But I don't think it was motivated by religion.
It is well known that Jinnah was not a practicing Muslim. That's why most Muslim religious leaders opposed him. Some even insulted him with the title of "Kafir-e-Azam" meaning the "Great Infidel". Others denigrated him as "Fasiq" and "Fajir"...which roughly means a wrongdoer or outlaw in Islam.
He was certainly not popular among the right-wing conservative Muslim religious leadership of India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#272 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 8:40:32 am
Riaz#271:
"Jinnah disavowed his daughter for marrying a man of another religion? I think this is false rumor, because Jinnah himself married a Parsee woman."
Glad you brought that up. That makes Jinnah a kuttar Muslim. I am sure that you know that Islam not only allows a Muslim man to marry a non-muslim woman but also encourages such union as a legitimate way of expanding dar-ul-islam. On the other hand, it does not allow a Muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man. Jinnah was following this Islamic rule; but what makes him kuttar is that he converted Rutti to Islam even though Islam does not require such conversion for wife; this is why you see wives of Salim Khan, Nawab of Pataudi, Shah Rukh Khan, etc. still keeping their old religion.
"Jinnah disavowed his daughter for marrying a man of another religion? I think this is false rumor, because Jinnah himself married a Parsee woman."
Glad you brought that up. That makes Jinnah a kuttar Muslim. I am sure that you know that Islam not only allows a Muslim man to marry a non-muslim woman but also encourages such union as a legitimate way of expanding dar-ul-islam. On the other hand, it does not allow a Muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man. Jinnah was following this Islamic rule; but what makes him kuttar is that he converted Rutti to Islam even though Islam does not require such conversion for wife; this is why you see wives of Salim Khan, Nawab of Pataudi, Shah Rukh Khan, etc. still keeping their old religion.
#271 Posted by RiazHaq on June 29, 2009 8:27:14 am
Re: # 269
Jinnah disavowed his daughter for marrying a man of another religion? I think this is false rumor, because Jinnah himself married a Parsee woman.
BTW, there are also rumors that Indira's husband Feroze Khan was in fact a Muslim who was given "Gandhi" surname to avoid political embarrassment to Nehru.
And Vijay Laxmi, Nehru's sister, was also in love with a Muslim, Syed Hussain, but was not allowed to marry him because Nehru forbade it. Does that make Nehru non-secular?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Jinnah disavowed his daughter for marrying a man of another religion? I think this is false rumor, because Jinnah himself married a Parsee woman.
BTW, there are also rumors that Indira's husband Feroze Khan was in fact a Muslim who was given "Gandhi" surname to avoid political embarrassment to Nehru.
And Vijay Laxmi, Nehru's sister, was also in love with a Muslim, Syed Hussain, but was not allowed to marry him because Nehru forbade it. Does that make Nehru non-secular?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#270 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 6:42:43 am
Re: # 265
"Dost mittar, be honest, the BJP, just like all other Indian political parties is not really in favour of gender equality."
Of course. This is why I said that it is for gender equality in theory
"Dost mittar, be honest, the BJP, just like all other Indian political parties is not really in favour of gender equality."
Of course. This is why I said that it is for gender equality in theory
#269 Posted by dost_mittar on June 29, 2009 6:40:59 am
Re: # 248
"Unlike Advani, Jinnah was secular in all aspects of his life."
Secular and communal are not conflicting terms - one could be both at the same time. The opposite is also true, i.e, one could be both non-secular and non-communal, Gandhi was a good example of the latter.
In any case, Jinnah secularism is overrated: how secular is a person who virtually disowns his daughter for marrying a man of another religion?
"Unlike Advani, Jinnah was secular in all aspects of his life."
Secular and communal are not conflicting terms - one could be both at the same time. The opposite is also true, i.e, one could be both non-secular and non-communal, Gandhi was a good example of the latter.
In any case, Jinnah secularism is overrated: how secular is a person who virtually disowns his daughter for marrying a man of another religion?
#268 Posted by KHYBER on June 29, 2009 4:18:19 am
Re: # 266...'Don't you think, Islaam khatrein mein hain?'
No, Islam never been in danger,its a political term of corrupt politicians of religious parties, whenever their interests are in danger they use this slogan,Its just like Gen.Zia used Islam for his so called referendum,these people are hypocrite and criminals for using Islam for their political ends ,the problem is in a country where rate of literacy is less then 50% and over 40 million people can't read and write follow those who use this slogan.( Islaam khatrein mein hain? )
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
No, Islam never been in danger,its a political term of corrupt politicians of religious parties, whenever their interests are in danger they use this slogan,Its just like Gen.Zia used Islam for his so called referendum,these people are hypocrite and criminals for using Islam for their political ends ,the problem is in a country where rate of literacy is less then 50% and over 40 million people can't read and write follow those who use this slogan.( Islaam khatrein mein hain? )
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#267 Posted by nemesis3 on June 29, 2009 12:54:41 am
#237 Posted by dost_mittar
Well said.
Also should be included in the 'not to do list' is the proclamations of the self styled religious leaders to issue fatwas on the issues that touch the sensitive cords of the general public. The fatwa against singing of national anthem, the one against actor Salman Khan and now Shah rukh Khan, against the rebirth issue that occurred in Kashmir etc. all these were in real bad taste.
I remember, one of my muslim friends told me about the edict in quran that required every muslim to be loyal to the country he resides in. Why such quotes are deliberately suppressed?
Well said.
Also should be included in the 'not to do list' is the proclamations of the self styled religious leaders to issue fatwas on the issues that touch the sensitive cords of the general public. The fatwa against singing of national anthem, the one against actor Salman Khan and now Shah rukh Khan, against the rebirth issue that occurred in Kashmir etc. all these were in real bad taste.
I remember, one of my muslim friends told me about the edict in quran that required every muslim to be loyal to the country he resides in. Why such quotes are deliberately suppressed?
#266 Posted by nemesis3 on June 29, 2009 12:37:43 am
#232 Posted by ahmedmadani
Don't you think, Islaam khatrein mein hain?
"English future queen Diana was going to marry black rich egyption muslim boyfriend and was going to follow muslim faith "
In Pakistan, it would have passed off in the name of 'honour killing'(??)
Why do you want to ruin a good discussion and turn the forum into yet another slang match?
Don't you think, Islaam khatrein mein hain?
"English future queen Diana was going to marry black rich egyption muslim boyfriend and was going to follow muslim faith "
In Pakistan, it would have passed off in the name of 'honour killing'(??)
Why do you want to ruin a good discussion and turn the forum into yet another slang match?
#265 Posted by nb on June 28, 2009 11:42:18 pm
Dost mittar, be honest, the BJP, just like all other Indian political parties is not really in favour of gender equality. This is a concept unknown to India.
#264 Posted by harish_hyd on June 28, 2009 11:12:53 pm
#251 by malikrashid
Malik Rashid sahib, kudos to you for calling a spade a spade. I wish more and more Pakis gather the courage to call the Partition for what it was: a cruel event perpetrated on the people of the subcontinent by a megalomaniac who wouldn't mind walking over the bodies of millions of Indians (even those from his own community) to satisfy his lust for power.
Malik Rashid sahib, kudos to you for calling a spade a spade. I wish more and more Pakis gather the courage to call the Partition for what it was: a cruel event perpetrated on the people of the subcontinent by a megalomaniac who wouldn't mind walking over the bodies of millions of Indians (even those from his own community) to satisfy his lust for power.
#263 Posted by majumdar on June 28, 2009 9:58:23 pm
Malik Rashid sahib,
Jinnah and Iqbal were educated muslim leaders who misled the muslims of India into an eternal conflict rather than resolving them in beneficial terms for the minority. Their vision for a political future of muslims in India was tainted by a desire to restore the lost muslim rule contrary to a destiny for all Indians alike.
If you are an Indian Muslim, then I can understand why you are saying this. But if you are a Paki, you are completely misinformed about MAJ (pbuh)'s vision at least (Dunno much about Iqbal so can't comment). I suggest you read folks like Ayesha Jalal and our own resident historian Yasser Latif Hamdani aka Mantolives.
MAJ (pbuh) strove life long for a secular, united India but after the Hindoo majority rebuffed guarantees for Muslim rights, he had no choice but to call for a Pakistan but even then his choice was for a Pakistan within the Indian Confederation.
Sir, as Masadi sahib says you need to get an education esp on modern Indian history.
Regards
Jinnah and Iqbal were educated muslim leaders who misled the muslims of India into an eternal conflict rather than resolving them in beneficial terms for the minority. Their vision for a political future of muslims in India was tainted by a desire to restore the lost muslim rule contrary to a destiny for all Indians alike.
If you are an Indian Muslim, then I can understand why you are saying this. But if you are a Paki, you are completely misinformed about MAJ (pbuh)'s vision at least (Dunno much about Iqbal so can't comment). I suggest you read folks like Ayesha Jalal and our own resident historian Yasser Latif Hamdani aka Mantolives.
MAJ (pbuh) strove life long for a secular, united India but after the Hindoo majority rebuffed guarantees for Muslim rights, he had no choice but to call for a Pakistan but even then his choice was for a Pakistan within the Indian Confederation.
Sir, as Masadi sahib says you need to get an education esp on modern Indian history.
Regards
#262 Posted by HemantS on June 28, 2009 8:19:38 pm
Re: # 1
There never seems to any espousal of Hindu causes by BJP. Do not really recall Shri RamJanambhoomi movement as was in class XII and could not really participate but do remember listening to Sadhi Rithambara ji's speeches. At least the 1;s I heard were the only Pro Hindu Speeches one ever heard froom the BJP stable apart from Uma Bharti. But on reading the movement's history 1 realises the BJP botched this 1 big time and I feel there is a lesson. IShwar ke naam kay vyaapar karo to kshama mil sakti uske naam ki dalaali pe nahin. (I mean the BJP was as comitted to the Ram Mandir as the ML was to empowering the Bangali peasants)
As I can never dream of voting congress so Behnji Zindabad
Hemant
There never seems to any espousal of Hindu causes by BJP. Do not really recall Shri RamJanambhoomi movement as was in class XII and could not really participate but do remember listening to Sadhi Rithambara ji's speeches. At least the 1;s I heard were the only Pro Hindu Speeches one ever heard froom the BJP stable apart from Uma Bharti. But on reading the movement's history 1 realises the BJP botched this 1 big time and I feel there is a lesson. IShwar ke naam kay vyaapar karo to kshama mil sakti uske naam ki dalaali pe nahin. (I mean the BJP was as comitted to the Ram Mandir as the ML was to empowering the Bangali peasants)
As I can never dream of voting congress so Behnji Zindabad
Hemant
#261 Posted by tahmed32 on June 28, 2009 7:51:34 pm
#260 true. there is a big job to be done to free children of poor families from the clutches of the maulvi.
but what about freeing the nation from the maulvi infestation? today the JI had a big "Go America Go" demonstration in karachi. like BJP scored goals against india, so do these rats score goals against Pakistan - because it simply smears the image of Pakistan as being a violent country, scares away investors and tourists, and makes it harder for "friends of pakistan" to argue with "sceptics against pakistan" in not just washington dc but in countries around the world.
the only saving grace is that while BJP is one of the largest parties in india, the JI and mullah fazloos have no resonance with the people. their street noise and their media savvy gives them the chance to damage to pakistan, though.
but what about freeing the nation from the maulvi infestation? today the JI had a big "Go America Go" demonstration in karachi. like BJP scored goals against india, so do these rats score goals against Pakistan - because it simply smears the image of Pakistan as being a violent country, scares away investors and tourists, and makes it harder for "friends of pakistan" to argue with "sceptics against pakistan" in not just washington dc but in countries around the world.
the only saving grace is that while BJP is one of the largest parties in india, the JI and mullah fazloos have no resonance with the people. their street noise and their media savvy gives them the chance to damage to pakistan, though.
#260 Posted by KHYBER on June 28, 2009 7:17:18 pm
#259 tahmed32..That is a good move by military and Zardari Govt,but they need to kill or arrest and punish Taliban leaders,they also need to investigate and reform those religious schools(madressa)where they preach hate to innocents minds.There is big need to revolutinazie Pakistan's education system so parents of poor kids don't have to send their kids to mullah schools.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#259 Posted by tahmed32 on June 28, 2009 7:07:32 pm
Khyber: greetings sir. actually, as long as we have a democratic structure, i think the lot we have will see us through. They are muddling through, but in the right direction. fighting the taliban invaders, rather than playing destructive double games like musharraf.
#258 Posted by KHYBER on June 28, 2009 6:30:43 pm
Re: # 257tahmed32..well said.Sir Syed Ahmad Khan,Jinnah and Iqbal were highly advance,liberal and educated leaders,In today's Pakistan,we need leaders like them.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
#257 Posted by tahmed32 on June 28, 2009 6:05:53 pm
malikrashid #251 no doubt jinnah played the "religion card". but that was to achieve what turned out to be an achievable goal - BJP is playing a similar card, but only to score goals against india itself. and that is why BJP has accomplished nothing except promote conflicts within india.
That is one big difference between jinnah and advani (or indeed any other bjp leader).
iqbal no doubt had a strong muslim revivalist element in him - but iqbal had depth and nuance and beauty in what he wrote, regardless of how much you think his philosophy is constructive in today's world. advani can only howl.
so lets not try to compare apples and oranges. if you wish to discuss where jinnah or iqbal stood 60 years ago, that is one question. if you wish to discuss where bjp stands today, that is another question.
That is one big difference between jinnah and advani (or indeed any other bjp leader).
iqbal no doubt had a strong muslim revivalist element in him - but iqbal had depth and nuance and beauty in what he wrote, regardless of how much you think his philosophy is constructive in today's world. advani can only howl.
so lets not try to compare apples and oranges. if you wish to discuss where jinnah or iqbal stood 60 years ago, that is one question. if you wish to discuss where bjp stands today, that is another question.
#256 Posted by RiazHaq on June 28, 2009 5:08:02 pm
Re: # 249
That's where there is a big disconnect between all the talk of democracy/politics and the reality on the ground. It is as though the last things on our minds should be the suffering of the common folks. They don't really matter, as far as strategizing the future success or failure of BJP is concerned.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
That's where there is a big disconnect between all the talk of democracy/politics and the reality on the ground. It is as though the last things on our minds should be the suffering of the common folks. They don't really matter, as far as strategizing the future success or failure of BJP is concerned.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#255 Posted by RiazHaq on June 28, 2009 5:02:21 pm
Re: # 251
Lumping Iqbal and Jinnah into one is fundamentally wrong. They were very different people with very different visions for Pakistan.
While their visions of Pakistan were different, both went through a transformation from Indian nationalists to demanding a separate homeland for Muslims. The transformation was the result of how they were marginalized by the Hindu majority leadership of Indian National Congress.
Some of the conflict that exists in Pakistan today between a secular vision versus an Islamic vision came from the two founding fathers, Iqbal and Jinnah.
But conflicts are not unusual between founders of nations. Jefferson's vision for a American agrarian federation was very different from Adams' and Hamilton's visions of an industrial America with powerful central executive.
There were similar differences between founding founders on separation of church and state, where Jefferson prevailed.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Lumping Iqbal and Jinnah into one is fundamentally wrong. They were very different people with very different visions for Pakistan.
While their visions of Pakistan were different, both went through a transformation from Indian nationalists to demanding a separate homeland for Muslims. The transformation was the result of how they were marginalized by the Hindu majority leadership of Indian National Congress.
Some of the conflict that exists in Pakistan today between a secular vision versus an Islamic vision came from the two founding fathers, Iqbal and Jinnah.
But conflicts are not unusual between founders of nations. Jefferson's vision for a American agrarian federation was very different from Adams' and Hamilton's visions of an industrial America with powerful central executive.
There were similar differences between founding founders on separation of church and state, where Jefferson prevailed.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#254 Posted by AlephNull on June 28, 2009 4:26:19 pm
malikrashid #174
I apologise for my delayed response.
{{Muslims came to India in 11th. century. ... Influenced by the locals, Muslims in India began Qawwali, a tradition of music not found among muslims anywhere in the world. They wear Indian clothes and speak Indian languages. There are muslim rituals in India that are not observed by muslims elsewhere.}}
If you want to establish that Islam in India acquired unique cultural accretions, I would readily agree as far as specifics are concerned. It may be interesting to compare broader general patterns with those found elsewhere in the world of Islam.
It may also be instructive to observe the perennial acrimony (on Chowk and elsewhere) between those Muslims who observe locally-developed rituals or venerate assorted saints, and those who denounce such practices as indicative of (drumrolls) 'primitive mindsets' or 'primitive mentalities' or jehalat or 'man-worship' or 'Hindu influence'. Increasing Arabisation seems to be a common trend in the Indian subcontinent as in many other lands on the periphery of the Islamosphere.
{{The problem could be the insecurity of becoming obsolete. Hindus being the majority could be less insecure, therefore more accomodating.}}
Why must negotiation, accommodation, adjustment always be on the basis of community? Muslims (many - not all) instinctively see themselves as one body totally separate from non-Muslims - what about those who do not want the world to be divided up along religious boundaries?
What if I, as an individual, see Islam as a clear and present danger to everything that I love, cherish and wish to preserve? Why should I, and other like-minded individuals, of whatever background, have to accommodate every demand of Islam at the cost of our own comprehensively un-Islamic ways?
{{The inclusion of Sikhism as an idigenous faith and excluding muslims as bearer of alien faith sounded somewhat discriminating to me so I asked.}}
Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism have genuine claims to being religious developments indigenous to India. Islam is an immigrant. This is the plain truth. As far as I am concerned, forthright truthfulness must always override kindness, politeness, 'political correctness', in all public discourse.
I apologise for my delayed response.
{{Muslims came to India in 11th. century. ... Influenced by the locals, Muslims in India began Qawwali, a tradition of music not found among muslims anywhere in the world. They wear Indian clothes and speak Indian languages. There are muslim rituals in India that are not observed by muslims elsewhere.}}
If you want to establish that Islam in India acquired unique cultural accretions, I would readily agree as far as specifics are concerned. It may be interesting to compare broader general patterns with those found elsewhere in the world of Islam.
It may also be instructive to observe the perennial acrimony (on Chowk and elsewhere) between those Muslims who observe locally-developed rituals or venerate assorted saints, and those who denounce such practices as indicative of (drumrolls) 'primitive mindsets' or 'primitive mentalities' or jehalat or 'man-worship' or 'Hindu influence'. Increasing Arabisation seems to be a common trend in the Indian subcontinent as in many other lands on the periphery of the Islamosphere.
{{The problem could be the insecurity of becoming obsolete. Hindus being the majority could be less insecure, therefore more accomodating.}}
Why must negotiation, accommodation, adjustment always be on the basis of community? Muslims (many - not all) instinctively see themselves as one body totally separate from non-Muslims - what about those who do not want the world to be divided up along religious boundaries?
What if I, as an individual, see Islam as a clear and present danger to everything that I love, cherish and wish to preserve? Why should I, and other like-minded individuals, of whatever background, have to accommodate every demand of Islam at the cost of our own comprehensively un-Islamic ways?
{{The inclusion of Sikhism as an idigenous faith and excluding muslims as bearer of alien faith sounded somewhat discriminating to me so I asked.}}
Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainism have genuine claims to being religious developments indigenous to India. Islam is an immigrant. This is the plain truth. As far as I am concerned, forthright truthfulness must always override kindness, politeness, 'political correctness', in all public discourse.
#251 Posted by malikrashid on June 28, 2009 3:56:58 pm
Re: # 248
Jinnah and Iqbal were educated muslim leaders who misled the muslims of India into an eternal conflict rather than resolving them in beneficial terms for the minority. Their vision for a political future of muslims in India was tainted by a desire to restore the lost muslim rule contrary to a destiny for all Indians alike. There were similar minds operating in politics from the Hindu majority and together these two set of fundamentalists/archaic mentality created a conflict in Indian polity that still sucks unnecessary energy and blurs clarity.
Jinnah and Iqbal were educated muslim leaders who misled the muslims of India into an eternal conflict rather than resolving them in beneficial terms for the minority. Their vision for a political future of muslims in India was tainted by a desire to restore the lost muslim rule contrary to a destiny for all Indians alike. There were similar minds operating in politics from the Hindu majority and together these two set of fundamentalists/archaic mentality created a conflict in Indian polity that still sucks unnecessary energy and blurs clarity.
#250 Posted by dude40000 on June 28, 2009 3:43:34 pm
Nice - so BJP's revival depends on restoring power in Delhi.
Riaz - As usual, thanks for your pearls of wisdom.
Riaz - As usual, thanks for your pearls of wisdom.
#249 Posted by RiazHaq on June 28, 2009 3:41:42 pm
Here is a BBC report on India's heat wave and power cuts:
Protests are growing in Delhi over power cuts as the Indian capital remains in the grip of a heat wave.
The government of the northern state of Punjab has announced that its offices will shut early as it also attempts to deal with a similar power crisis.
In Delhi, police have been called to break up demonstrations outside the offices of electricity companies.
Hundreds of people turned up at the house of a state minister demanding a solution to the problem.
As residents wait for this year's delayed monsoon, it is getting hotter and hotter and the disruptions to power supplies are getting bigger and bigger.
Most of the residents at the protests are without power for between six to 10 hours a day.
With temperatures in the mid-40s, there is an increasing demand for electricity as everyone tries to cool down.
The system here is unable to cope.
Some people are now sleeping in their air-conditioned cars.
The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, has described the situation as grim.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8123012.stm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Protests are growing in Delhi over power cuts as the Indian capital remains in the grip of a heat wave.
The government of the northern state of Punjab has announced that its offices will shut early as it also attempts to deal with a similar power crisis.
In Delhi, police have been called to break up demonstrations outside the offices of electricity companies.
Hundreds of people turned up at the house of a state minister demanding a solution to the problem.
As residents wait for this year's delayed monsoon, it is getting hotter and hotter and the disruptions to power supplies are getting bigger and bigger.
Most of the residents at the protests are without power for between six to 10 hours a day.
With temperatures in the mid-40s, there is an increasing demand for electricity as everyone tries to cool down.
The system here is unable to cope.
Some people are now sleeping in their air-conditioned cars.
The Chief Minister of Delhi, Sheila Dikshit, has described the situation as grim.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8123012.stm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#248 Posted by RiazHaq on June 28, 2009 3:20:31 pm
Re: # 246
I think it is absolutely ridiculous to compare Jinnah with Advani. Unlike Advani, Jinnah was secular in all aspects of his life.
And his vision was for Pakistan as a homeland for Indian Muslims where all citizens would be equal in front of the law, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, etc.
Jinnah never led any mobs to destroy any one's place of worship nor did he talk about building any mosques on top of the ruins of a temple.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
I think it is absolutely ridiculous to compare Jinnah with Advani. Unlike Advani, Jinnah was secular in all aspects of his life.
And his vision was for Pakistan as a homeland for Indian Muslims where all citizens would be equal in front of the law, regardless of race, religion, ethnicity, etc.
Jinnah never led any mobs to destroy any one's place of worship nor did he talk about building any mosques on top of the ruins of a temple.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#247 Posted by AlephNull on June 28, 2009 3:03:27 pm
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#246 Posted by malikrashid on June 28, 2009 2:14:13 pm
Re: # 245
DM
Advani and Jinnah are certainly comparable. Both educated folks indulged themselves in the politics of bigotry. LK Advani's outlook of Indian history and politics is based on the strength of the archaic. It is equivalent to Maudoodi's revival of Islamic state-hood.
DM
Advani and Jinnah are certainly comparable. Both educated folks indulged themselves in the politics of bigotry. LK Advani's outlook of Indian history and politics is based on the strength of the archaic. It is equivalent to Maudoodi's revival of Islamic state-hood.
#245 Posted by dost_mittar on June 28, 2009 1:52:31 pm
malikrashi#243:
The short answer is that their positions on all these matters are the same as that of the Congress and other parties. Specifically:
Gender Equality: They are for it in theory. In fact, they sponsored the resolution for one-third seats in the Lok Sabha for women and have announced their support for the proposed govt. resolution for the same.
Sexual freedom: No specific views; a hindu outfit harassed some girls in a bar in Bangalore for being there at a late hour. The BJP distanced itself from the outfit. That said, the BJP as well as other parites would reflect the division in the society between those elements who want to retain conservative traditions and those who like western culture. Bangalore has the highest number of pubs in India and their IT workers are also among their frequent clients and BJP supporters.
Freedom of information: They are for it and I think that they also passed some resolution to this effect during their NDA govt. And Advani is credited with giving greater autonomy to All India Radio when was the Information minister in the Janata govt. of which the BJP was a partner.
Investing in human resource: No particular emphasis although their platform, I am sure, would have some platitudes in its support.
Finally, if Advani is a fundamentalist, you would have to define it in other than religious terms. I consider him to be communal but not fundamentalist. Just like Jinnah, Advani is not religious but, just like Jinnah, he is willing to exploit religion for political ends. Inddeed, unlike Jinnah, Advani and other BJP leaders have no problems attending and even organising lavish iftari parties during Ramzan.
The short answer is that their positions on all these matters are the same as that of the Congress and other parties. Specifically:
Gender Equality: They are for it in theory. In fact, they sponsored the resolution for one-third seats in the Lok Sabha for women and have announced their support for the proposed govt. resolution for the same.
Sexual freedom: No specific views; a hindu outfit harassed some girls in a bar in Bangalore for being there at a late hour. The BJP distanced itself from the outfit. That said, the BJP as well as other parites would reflect the division in the society between those elements who want to retain conservative traditions and those who like western culture. Bangalore has the highest number of pubs in India and their IT workers are also among their frequent clients and BJP supporters.
Freedom of information: They are for it and I think that they also passed some resolution to this effect during their NDA govt. And Advani is credited with giving greater autonomy to All India Radio when was the Information minister in the Janata govt. of which the BJP was a partner.
Investing in human resource: No particular emphasis although their platform, I am sure, would have some platitudes in its support.
Finally, if Advani is a fundamentalist, you would have to define it in other than religious terms. I consider him to be communal but not fundamentalist. Just like Jinnah, Advani is not religious but, just like Jinnah, he is willing to exploit religion for political ends. Inddeed, unlike Jinnah, Advani and other BJP leaders have no problems attending and even organising lavish iftari parties during Ramzan.
#244 Posted by ellora on June 28, 2009 1:19:48 pm
But, don't forget, there are many examples in history where a determined fringe group has succeeded in gaining tremendous power to the detriment of their own nations.
True. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan, for instance.
It's always funny when supporters of Islamic republics and dictatorial regimes lecture others on secularism and democracy.
God is all knowing, all merciful. ;-)
True. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan, for instance.
It's always funny when supporters of Islamic republics and dictatorial regimes lecture others on secularism and democracy.
God is all knowing, all merciful. ;-)
#243 Posted by malikrashid on June 28, 2009 12:08:27 pm
DM
What are BJPs views towards:
Gender Equality
Sexual freedom
Freedom of information
Investing in human resource
I think both Mulla Omar and Advani are fundamentalists. There is no doubt that Advani is a learned man.
What are BJPs views towards:
Gender Equality
Sexual freedom
Freedom of information
Investing in human resource
I think both Mulla Omar and Advani are fundamentalists. There is no doubt that Advani is a learned man.
#242 Posted by dude40000 on June 28, 2009 9:46:33 am
Re: # 241
If I have to compare Advani to anyone else, it would be to Jinnah.
Both of them were shrewd enough to use a political ploy for advantage.
Another comparison for Advani would be both Bhutto/Sharif. Both Bhutto/Sharif supported Taliban for strenghting their hold over geo-politics as well as to pacify the Pak Army.
If I have to compare Advani to anyone else, it would be to Jinnah.
Both of them were shrewd enough to use a political ploy for advantage.
Another comparison for Advani would be both Bhutto/Sharif. Both Bhutto/Sharif supported Taliban for strenghting their hold over geo-politics as well as to pacify the Pak Army.
#241 Posted by tahmed32 on June 28, 2009 9:08:11 am
#239 dost mittar: human motivations are not black and white, political expediency or religious belief. so it is futile for to say that advani was being politically expedient in destroying an ancient structure while mullah omar was following his beliefs.
Regardless of motivation, the fact is that both demonstrated lack of respect for other religions. And (per my post below), anyone unable to rise above whatever religion he/she happens to have been "born into" is a jahil. Granted that suit fits a lot of folks on chowk...
Regardless of motivation, the fact is that both demonstrated lack of respect for other religions. And (per my post below), anyone unable to rise above whatever religion he/she happens to have been "born into" is a jahil. Granted that suit fits a lot of folks on chowk...
#240 Posted by nb on June 28, 2009 7:45:41 am
Dost mittar: I'm sure you did that and much more in your professional life, but I doubt you ever did it for a firm you were completely against.
#239 Posted by dost_mittar on June 28, 2009 6:50:03 am
tahmed32:
I do think that those who followed Advani are jahil but not Advani himself. His Ayodhya Rath Yatra was perhaps the shrewdest political act by an opportunistic politician in the Indian political history since Gandhi's famous salt march.
Mulla Umar's destruction of Bamyan Buddha is of a different category. It was not a political move but based on his understanding of what his faith required him to do. You can call that understanding jehalat but others might not agree with you.
I do think that those who followed Advani are jahil but not Advani himself. His Ayodhya Rath Yatra was perhaps the shrewdest political act by an opportunistic politician in the Indian political history since Gandhi's famous salt march.
Mulla Umar's destruction of Bamyan Buddha is of a different category. It was not a political move but based on his understanding of what his faith required him to do. You can call that understanding jehalat but others might not agree with you.
#238 Posted by dost_mittar on June 28, 2009 6:44:18 am
nb:
In my professional career, I sometimes had to suggest improvement in programs which I did not approve of. This is what a consultant is supposed to do.
I called my piece 'prescription'. In other words, I am playing the role of a medical practitioner who gives a prescription to a patient even when she does not like the patient.
For a change, is it possible to ignore the messenger and see if there is anything wrong with the prescription?
In my professional career, I sometimes had to suggest improvement in programs which I did not approve of. This is what a consultant is supposed to do.
I called my piece 'prescription'. In other words, I am playing the role of a medical practitioner who gives a prescription to a patient even when she does not like the patient.
For a change, is it possible to ignore the messenger and see if there is anything wrong with the prescription?
#237 Posted by dost_mittar on June 28, 2009 6:39:03 am
Re: # 234
It is far me to deny that there is an element of ummahood, which tahmed saheb calls jehalat, which can be a destabilising factor for any society. But the way to fight that element is a combination of incentives and deterrents - the incentives are providing a non-discriminatory society where everyone can feel safe and secure about his/her life, property and identity and has an equal opportunity for growth. The deterrent is to strictly monitor the Muslim institutions, such as Friday khutbas, Madrassas and the training institutions for Madrassas, such as dar-ul-uloom in India to ensure that they do not teach political aspects of Islam. Hateful speeches, such as those of Varun Gandhi or encouraging lumpen elements in the society are not the way to fight that tendency.
It is far me to deny that there is an element of ummahood, which tahmed saheb calls jehalat, which can be a destabilising factor for any society. But the way to fight that element is a combination of incentives and deterrents - the incentives are providing a non-discriminatory society where everyone can feel safe and secure about his/her life, property and identity and has an equal opportunity for growth. The deterrent is to strictly monitor the Muslim institutions, such as Friday khutbas, Madrassas and the training institutions for Madrassas, such as dar-ul-uloom in India to ensure that they do not teach political aspects of Islam. Hateful speeches, such as those of Varun Gandhi or encouraging lumpen elements in the society are not the way to fight that tendency.
#236 Posted by tahmed32 on June 28, 2009 3:08:51 am
dost mittar #229 I think we are on the same page here. The underlying problem is "jehalat". Jehalat goes beyond the "lunatic element" though. Thus - a man who leads a mob to destroy a centuries old structure on religious grounds is a jahil - even if he is not generally considered to be a total lunatic. That man could be doing this in the name of hinduism - as in case of Advani who "bravely" destroyed Babri masjid - or in the name of islam - as in case of Mullah Omar who "bravely" destroyed centuries old Buddha statues. The fact is that he is a jahil.
So the clash is not of civilizations - or even of different communities. The clash is of civilized society vs jahils. The fact that this distinction is totally overshadowed by the superficial "east vs west" or "hindu vs muslim" distinction points to the insidious nature of the jahil. Who are among us, spreading the jahaliyat while wearing the mask of whatever is near and dear to most people (i.e. their religious and other traditions, patriotism, and so forth). It is not for nothing that it is said that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".
So the clash is not of civilizations - or even of different communities. The clash is of civilized society vs jahils. The fact that this distinction is totally overshadowed by the superficial "east vs west" or "hindu vs muslim" distinction points to the insidious nature of the jahil. Who are among us, spreading the jahaliyat while wearing the mask of whatever is near and dear to most people (i.e. their religious and other traditions, patriotism, and so forth). It is not for nothing that it is said that "patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel".
#235 Posted by nb on June 28, 2009 2:43:19 am
Dostmittar, I am now expecting Stuka to write an article on how to revive the Communist Party of India.
#234 Posted by nkg on June 28, 2009 2:35:39 am
DM...
BJP is not exceptional...All rightwing parties are in that job...
Sarcozy is trying hard to make muslas more of french and civilised than arab clone...There is nothing wrong in that, specialy, when history shows that these arab clones are very dangerous for civilisation and related to matter of social integration....I think Germany and UK too launched program to integrate muslas ( bring to home fold from beduinistic ghettoes)...
And mind that, the biggest beduinsitc ghettoes, which was part of India, is now epicenter of islamic barbarism and Bangladesh is grooming to be...
http://muktadhara.net/page120.html
BJP is not exceptional...All rightwing parties are in that job...
Sarcozy is trying hard to make muslas more of french and civilised than arab clone...There is nothing wrong in that, specialy, when history shows that these arab clones are very dangerous for civilisation and related to matter of social integration....I think Germany and UK too launched program to integrate muslas ( bring to home fold from beduinistic ghettoes)...
And mind that, the biggest beduinsitc ghettoes, which was part of India, is now epicenter of islamic barbarism and Bangladesh is grooming to be...
http://muktadhara.net/page120.html
#233 Posted by nkg on June 28, 2009 2:29:13 am
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#232 Posted by ahmedmadani on June 27, 2009 7:55:10 pm
Re: # 231 Few days mr M.Jackson died. Prof R.Haq there is plot and they killed man. Please note about year he became muslim though he did not drop his christain name. Same way when Mike tyson became muslim they put him in prison on framed charges. When prominent blacks become muslim they suddenly die. English future queen Diana was going to marry black rich egyption muslim boyfriend and was going to follow muslim faith he and she was killed. There resonable doubt mr.Jackson was killed.
#231 Posted by RiazHaq on June 27, 2009 5:22:25 pm
Re: # 228
Anil, Thanks for your explanation.
I agree with you that there is a need for a right-of-center party as an alternative to Congress in India. Such competition can be healthy for democracy. But I also agree with your observation that BJP as it is can not fill that role well, given its tremendous communal baggage.
Unfortunately, though, BJP's base continues to be in the highly motivated extreme right-wing RSS and VHP type orgs that will make it difficult for a splinter group to emerge and gain strength as a credible but more moderate alternative to Congress. Also, the younger set in BJP is far more radical right-wing than Vajpayee or Jaswant Singh or even Advani.
So, at least for now, it's not obvious to me how BJP is going to evolve to be more like the Christian Democrats in Europe or Republicans in US.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Anil, Thanks for your explanation.
I agree with you that there is a need for a right-of-center party as an alternative to Congress in India. Such competition can be healthy for democracy. But I also agree with your observation that BJP as it is can not fill that role well, given its tremendous communal baggage.
Unfortunately, though, BJP's base continues to be in the highly motivated extreme right-wing RSS and VHP type orgs that will make it difficult for a splinter group to emerge and gain strength as a credible but more moderate alternative to Congress. Also, the younger set in BJP is far more radical right-wing than Vajpayee or Jaswant Singh or even Advani.
So, at least for now, it's not obvious to me how BJP is going to evolve to be more like the Christian Democrats in Europe or Republicans in US.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#230 Posted by dost_mittar on June 27, 2009 5:18:31 pm
anil#228:
Maybe the solution would be a break up of the party but I don't think that this would work. The core support for the BJP comes from the RSS and whoever they support will survive. If I am not mistaken, there is still a Jan Sangh party somewhere which was founded by a dissident former president of Jan Sangh, Balraj Madhok. As I said, one never even hears of it even though Madhok had a fairly large following of his own.
I think that the BJP has to reinvent itself and get rid of the lunatic fringe. That's the only way it would be acceptable to a large section of the population. However, it will also partly depend upon other developments; all bets are off if there is another Godhra type incident.
Maybe the solution would be a break up of the party but I don't think that this would work. The core support for the BJP comes from the RSS and whoever they support will survive. If I am not mistaken, there is still a Jan Sangh party somewhere which was founded by a dissident former president of Jan Sangh, Balraj Madhok. As I said, one never even hears of it even though Madhok had a fairly large following of his own.
I think that the BJP has to reinvent itself and get rid of the lunatic fringe. That's the only way it would be acceptable to a large section of the population. However, it will also partly depend upon other developments; all bets are off if there is another Godhra type incident.
#229 Posted by dost_mittar on June 27, 2009 5:16:55 pm
Riaz, tahmed32:
Yes, the lunatic element in the BJP is violent and not so in the Republican Party in the US. And the difference is the culture; mob violence is part of the Indian culture since at least the Direct Action days, as is the unprofessional police which is also infested with the same type of viruses that affect the population. And it is not the monopoly of the BJP; the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi were not the work of the BJP nor were the anti-muslim riots in Bombay in 1993.
Yes, the lunatic element in the BJP is violent and not so in the Republican Party in the US. And the difference is the culture; mob violence is part of the Indian culture since at least the Direct Action days, as is the unprofessional police which is also infested with the same type of viruses that affect the population. And it is not the monopoly of the BJP; the anti-Sikh riots in Delhi were not the work of the BJP nor were the anti-muslim riots in Bombay in 1993.
#228 Posted by anil on June 27, 2009 4:00:11 pm
Re: # 222
Riaz:
In today's India, I would say the population is not only young, but that young voted for BJP only because there is no right-of-center party.
Dost sahib can confirm this postulate of mine.
In the last election, BJP failed misearably to deliver on its right-of-center party image due to opposition to nuclear deal etc.
This is the only image, message and plan that is missing from Indian political scene. People have grown way beyond getting psyched up on anti-Muslim sentiments, otherwise Modi would have done it many times over.
If you track the history of right-of-center in India. Before partition, it was Jinnah who would lead this movement, even though Gandhi would be regarded as right of center, with his eccentricities he would have failed as a leader in post India. He rightly did not enter politics, and infact wanted Congress to be disbanded.
Subsequent to Jinnah, in post independence there was a secular party called Swantrata (Freedom) Party, led by Rajgopalachari (1st Indian Governor General) and Minoo Masani (a Parsi) who lead it.
They did not flourish, none of Nehru, Indira Gandhi, to Rajiv Gandhi ever allowed right-of-center option to develop.
For a brief period in late 80s there was Janata Party coalition which came to power. This was a very unstable party and BJP broke out of it in the current form.
Many years ago, I had an opportunity to meet Vajpayee when he was foreign minister in this government and visited San Francisco. He had left no doubt among the listners that he wanted BJP to emulate Republican Party and be the right-of-center option.
Unfortunately what won them the election was Babri Masjid and communal divide and Advani's rath yatra. This slowed down the evolution of right-of-center politics.
This election is certainly an indication who India is voting for (a) 80 year olds and hold ideology of Hindutva; or (b) young generation with an Indian dream based on economic success. The mandate, as I see is very clear, it is for (b).
I have my doubts that BJP, in its present form, can reinvent itself as right-of-center party, and rid itself of control of right wing hindutva wadi who are all aged and way past their productive life. Their leadership has failed misearably to cultivate young leadership with new vision, message and plan.
The names that Dost mentions (Vajpayee, Jaswant Singh etc.) no doubt have right vision to make a right-of-center party. Therefore, my view is that we will see a split in BJP, of the kind Congress saw in 60s, and 70s. This clean up is long overdue for a good right-of-center party to emerge. Till then, I find it hard to believe that BJP will be able to come to power with ever younger Indian votes on older slogans, and opportunistic acts (like vote against nuclear deal). In this regard their challenge is a lot like Republican Party's after the election losses.
Congress fills the left of center bill very well. Even the leftist writers you quote will readily acknowledge that there is a big gap and need for a right-of-center party in India, and that majority of young voters even in villages who have class 5 education or higher, are fiscal conservative and will vote for a right-of-center party.
Riaz:
In today's India, I would say the population is not only young, but that young voted for BJP only because there is no right-of-center party.
Dost sahib can confirm this postulate of mine.
In the last election, BJP failed misearably to deliver on its right-of-center party image due to opposition to nuclear deal etc.
This is the only image, message and plan that is missing from Indian political scene. People have grown way beyond getting psyched up on anti-Muslim sentiments, otherwise Modi would have done it many times over.
If you track the history of right-of-center in India. Before partition, it was Jinnah who would lead this movement, even though Gandhi would be regarded as right of center, with his eccentricities he would have failed as a leader in post India. He rightly did not enter politics, and infact wanted Congress to be disbanded.
Subsequent to Jinnah, in post independence there was a secular party called Swantrata (Freedom) Party, led by Rajgopalachari (1st Indian Governor General) and Minoo Masani (a Parsi) who lead it.
They did not flourish, none of Nehru, Indira Gandhi, to Rajiv Gandhi ever allowed right-of-center option to develop.
For a brief period in late 80s there was Janata Party coalition which came to power. This was a very unstable party and BJP broke out of it in the current form.
Many years ago, I had an opportunity to meet Vajpayee when he was foreign minister in this government and visited San Francisco. He had left no doubt among the listners that he wanted BJP to emulate Republican Party and be the right-of-center option.
Unfortunately what won them the election was Babri Masjid and communal divide and Advani's rath yatra. This slowed down the evolution of right-of-center politics.
This election is certainly an indication who India is voting for (a) 80 year olds and hold ideology of Hindutva; or (b) young generation with an Indian dream based on economic success. The mandate, as I see is very clear, it is for (b).
I have my doubts that BJP, in its present form, can reinvent itself as right-of-center party, and rid itself of control of right wing hindutva wadi who are all aged and way past their productive life. Their leadership has failed misearably to cultivate young leadership with new vision, message and plan.
The names that Dost mentions (Vajpayee, Jaswant Singh etc.) no doubt have right vision to make a right-of-center party. Therefore, my view is that we will see a split in BJP, of the kind Congress saw in 60s, and 70s. This clean up is long overdue for a good right-of-center party to emerge. Till then, I find it hard to believe that BJP will be able to come to power with ever younger Indian votes on older slogans, and opportunistic acts (like vote against nuclear deal). In this regard their challenge is a lot like Republican Party's after the election losses.
Congress fills the left of center bill very well. Even the leftist writers you quote will readily acknowledge that there is a big gap and need for a right-of-center party in India, and that majority of young voters even in villages who have class 5 education or higher, are fiscal conservative and will vote for a right-of-center party.
#227 Posted by tahmed32 on June 27, 2009 3:02:36 pm
Dost Mittar sahib #223 I see a refresing candor in your post concerning your earlier affiliation with BJP and the negative views on Islam they present. They do India, or even hinduism, no service by inculcating such negative views about another religion (the ill-effects of which are all too obvious on chowk, as I routinely note).
I dont put much weight to Advani's new-found love for Jinnah and Pakistan - he is clearly a petty-minded man promoted way beyond his depth.
I agree though that parties are capable of evolving in a democratic environment - so one day BJP may indeed become comparable to the Republican party. That wont happen in isolation though - it will require jahils being steadily weeded out in coming generations in India, and replaced with real men and women who respect other peoples' basic rights (which includes respect for different cultures, traditions, religions). The same of course applies to Pakistan - where after Swat we have the first stirrings of a nation-wide revulsion to jehalat wearing the mask of religion.
I dont put much weight to Advani's new-found love for Jinnah and Pakistan - he is clearly a petty-minded man promoted way beyond his depth.
I agree though that parties are capable of evolving in a democratic environment - so one day BJP may indeed become comparable to the Republican party. That wont happen in isolation though - it will require jahils being steadily weeded out in coming generations in India, and replaced with real men and women who respect other peoples' basic rights (which includes respect for different cultures, traditions, religions). The same of course applies to Pakistan - where after Swat we have the first stirrings of a nation-wide revulsion to jehalat wearing the mask of religion.