Am I a Skeptical Muslim?

#####Do you know that India is in fact the murder capital of the world, with over 32000 murders last year, the highest of any nation?####


Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country


USA number 24
India on 26

Hence you see the developed country like usa is ahead of India, and you are blaming yr kafer neighbours......

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murde rs-per-capita



Mr RiazHaq please take your lies and indian hatred towards other forum....this is decent pakistan forum which is very independent and dont u abuse it and your privilege to lie here with your penchant to hate kafers pls......I have challenged you enough on your riff raff but you are in a silent mode.....as per yr convenience.....

To nemesis3

"So you can not answer one simple question

What would you explain for throwing acid on the faces of the girls in Kashmir for not wearing burqa?"

These were un-Islamic and violent measures perpetrated by backward men. It is about their culture, not religion. You will find many such incidents with followers of other religions!

"I had also asked you earlier, what do you do with the female foetus that you don't kill."

That is a meaningless question!!

"The answer is that you can not kill female foetus because you need the female population four times that of male population so that you can grow copiously and occupy the world."

Polygamy in the Quran is strictly conditional and has only to do with the mothers of the orphans. Moreover, the Quran gives women the right to prevent their husbands from having a second marriage.

"Also, you have forced hijab on the women because you are jealous of your neighbour ogling at your women, as did your prophet."

Hijab is not mandatory in Islam. According to the Quran, women have only to cover their bosoms. Sounds very normal.
And do not talk about the Prophet in such a manner because you clearly know nothing about him.

"You get worked up because you are told the truth about yourself that you do not want to hear."

You are not telling any truths. You are here to express your hatred of Islam.

nemesis3

"This is not about the number of the incidents. About the intention of the perpetrators of forcing islam on hapless women in the valley. Afterall, it is religious to spread religion through terror!!"

None is forcing Islam on anybody. Those perpetrators were backward men. It is all about culture not religion. It is not religious to spread religion through terror. The Quran says that religion should be spread by wisdom and good knowledge. Fighting is only allowed in self defense.

Riaz

" isolated incidents of acid throwing"

This is not about the number of the incidents. About the intention of the perpetrators of forcing islam on hapless women in the valley. Afterall, it is religious to spread religion through terror!!

#282 Posted by RiazHaq

So you can not answer one simple question

What would you explain for throwing acid on the faces of the girls in Kashmir for not wearing burqa?

I had also asked you earlier, what do you do with the female foetus that you don't kill.

The answer is that you can not kill female foetus because you need the female population four times that of male population so that you can grow copiously and occupy the world.

Also, you have forced hijab on the women because you are jealous of your neighbour ogling at your women, as did your prophet.

You get worked up because you are told the truth about yourself that you do not want to hear.

#279 Posted by RiazHaq on July 8, 2009 9:34:03 am
Re: # 278 .. Most Islamic funds have had equivalent or better average returns than mainstream funds in the last several years.
http://www.islamicfinancenews.com/guide09pdf/eureka.pdf
http://mone ycentral.msn.com/investor/partsub/funds/topfundresults.asp?Category=All&Symb ol=$HF
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide



Riaz, what % of your own liquid assets you have invested in the funds listed? Just curious.

you dont need to answer it, if you dont feel comfortable.

Thanks.

Re: # 276
Tehsina:

Read my I-log please, in a day or two.

Re: # 285 sdala ladduu, tab apna Riaz Sahib kyon itna udaas dikhta? kuch bhi noor naheen

Degradation of women is the hall mark of Islami nizam of these mard-e-momeens.

Thook!!!

Only in Islam is the regular supply to sex is ensured through th practice of keeping 4 auwrat where the probabiliy of atleast one of them being clean and avaialbe for sex is ensured to mard -e-momeens.

And if the 4 are not enough , they can always keep as many dhimmi sex slaves as their right hand can possess.

The
islamic heaven is based upon the sexual fantasises of women. The 72 houries who do not have any menses is just a PROOF of what Islam is all about for the muslim men.

Riaz Haq - tau furst kalaas recycler hai.

Re: # 280
Do you not have crime in India?

Do you know that India is in fact the murder capital of the world, with over 32000 murders last year, the highest of any nation?

Overall, five million cases of crime, including murder, rape and drug offenses, were reported in India in 2007-08, the report compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) and released by the Indian home ministry says.

Add to that at least 500,000 little girls killed at or before birth, and another 2.1 million children dead from hunger, disease and malnutrition, you can see the ugly picture of violence in India. And you want to focus on a few regrettable but isolated incidents of acid throwing? Shame on you.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 262

"killing, displaying, objectifying (as sex objects Bollywood style)) and selling of females,"

Nowhere !! NOWHERE , but in Islam this objectification of women as described has been done.

Women is AUWRAT- a wombed person. She is known for her body- which she must hide all the time. He body is so objectified and is so obsessively posessed that it must be hidden .
woman is the object of man's possession. Woman must be kept in the houses in the prison of her hizab. Islam objectifies and degrades woman for her feminine bodies.

nowhere is this obsession with sex can be seen but in Islam where mard-e-momeen must ensure a regular supply of woman for his sexual needs on a daily basis.

#277 Posted by RiazHaq

Hitting around the bush is your forte. None can match it. Did you read my interact? I asked this

What would you explain for throwing acid on the faces of the girls in Kashmir for not wearing burqa?

If you can, answer this. Else go and hide your face.

Re: # 278

Most Islamic funds have had equivalent or better average returns than mainstream funds in the last several years.

http://www.islamicfinancenews.com/guide09pdf/eureka.pdf

http://mone ycentral.msn.com/investor/partsub/funds/topfundresults.asp?Category=All&Symb ol=$HF
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#261 Posted by RiazHaq

You are talking about apples while I am talking about oranges as you can see the two shall never meet. The only thing I was trying to point out is that banking (traditional commercial banking) not securities or stocks which are part of the investment banking and brokerage houses has remained a bulwark for preservation of capital. This has been true for the time modern banking system has been in existence. Compare this to Islamic Banking and one finds that everytime people put their money in those ventures they lost everything. That is all. One system works, the other despite smoke and mirrors and slavish following of western banking schemes is barely operational.

Re: # 271: "Hijab, a personal choice of a muslim woman!!"

I am not sure if it's your absolute ignorance or deep hostility toward Muslims or just pure defensive impulses, but I just pity you for your pathetic responses.

You'd say anything and make outrageous claims just to divert attention from the tragic female genocide currently taking place in your "great democracy" with all its hollow claims to high moral values.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#264 Posted by tahir

Please clarify what you mean. You quoted an ayat from which you seem to be drawing a conclusion that is not actually there. Are you stating that Quran is the whole madhab?

“The last refuge of the deniers of the importance of the Qur'an is in this statement: 'You can't understand the Book without the ahadith!'”

Correction: You can’t understand the Book without the Sunnah (Seerat) of the Prophet. In other words an intimate knowledge of what was going on at the time in Mecca or Madina and the situation that Muslims were facing is absolutely essential for understanding the Quran. The ayats were prompted by specific events and specific circumstances and knowing those situations are the only way to understand the context of the ayats.

Re: # 272
"Mujra is the gift of islam to the mankind."

Now don't make me write another I-log about Bapu Gandhi! Your silly remark is uncalled for.

Stay sane.

Re: # 269

No, Nem, I do indulge in creative writing; check out my I-logs to see what I can did to Indus-ian film classics!

Writing is important to me, not readers' taunts.

Stay well.

Its not Islam. I think people from the middle east and north Africa would fight even if there were to be no Islam but some other religion. Its a geographical problem not religious.

Riaz,

"objectifying (as sex objects Bollywood style)) and selling of females, practices common in your great democracy."

All the above started with the advent of the dark period of islaam. Selling human being started with muslim invaders. Mujra is the gift of islam to the mankind.

#262 Posted by RiazHaq

You are crazy.

I just wanted to know how much you cared for the liberties of women in your country. Passing off hijab as a personal choice is ridiculous. What would you explain for throwing acid on the faces of the girls in Kashmir for not wearing burqa?

Problem with you is what Dost_mittar said... you turn into a beast when someone quotes from quran what you don't want to listen because you don't have an answer for that.

Hijab, a personal choice of a muslim woman!!

Romair,

Point of clarification; my reference was to the Catholic Church, i.e., a religion that attempts to control all aspects of public and private life, akin to what public Islam is in many parts of the Muslim world. While the US may be religious, it has no state religion and no favoured church. Let the Southern Baptists gain control over the US and I'm sure that it will deteriorate rapidly--at least as far as overall economic performance (tech innovation, etc) goes.

I, and many others, consider state communism in many 'socialist' countries to be the modern version of organized religion. Works the same way and requires unquestioning faith on the part of the people.

So, let me repeat myself, until and unless the Muslim world puts public religion on the dustbin of history, where it belongs, it is never going to go anywhere. Did you know that the Jews of Istanbul used the printing press in the late-15th century but it wasn't until the mid-18th century that the first use by Muslim Turks is recorded? It seems that the ulema decreed that Allah meant man to read only a handwritten Koran....

#266 Posted by tahir

"Billy: read my latest I-log that answers it all I hope."

"NAdi naarey na jao shyam paiyan padoo"

Tahir mian, remember your interact?

You are the same old tahir mian and still write ilogs instead of writing shayri.

Hope you got it.

#245 Posted by leenah

"zahid nigah e kam say kisi rind ko na daikha kar
kia janay Uss Kareem ko tu hai kay woh pasand!"

Tahir mian, this one is for YOU.

#244 Posted by ellora

#238:
Zeeba, that was impressive. And instructive, at least for me. I have rarely seen Muslims express differences with the Koran openly - although in this day and age there is much to disagree with (as there is in every scripture).

I fully agree with you and compliment zeeba for this.

In fact, in one of his interacts, in defence of laddu or nkg, Dost_mitter has put this in a very convincing manner.

I think DM said the above gentleman was despised by the 'devout muslim chowkies' because he quoted from Quran what they did not want to hear.

Hope more muslims will have guts to call spade a spade rather than hiding behind the 'blasphemy' stuff.

In fact, tahmed32 has it in him, but when something comes from an Indian chowkie, he suddenly remembers his beards and something else!

Re: # 263
Billy: read my latest I-log that answers it all I hope.

#212 Posted by tahmed32


"as for your the last refuge of the scoundrel"

Man is known by the company he keeps. It was this same tahmed32 who was vehemently defending Riaz haq and his statistics. What a Hypocrisy!!

Re: # 260

Tehsina:

"Everything is not in the Quran and you cannot expect the whole madhab to be drawn out from there"

You utter a blasphemy! Have you not come across THIS?

(5:4) Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion.'

Our 'deen' has been perfected (completed) as stated and you insist on licking the 'CORRECT' man-made inventions!

Allah (na'uzubillah) should have announced that 'I will send Bukhari sahib and company two hundred years later, who will further perfect your religion, and until then, live in suspended animation!'

The last refuge of the deniers of the importance of the Qur'an is in this statement: 'You can't understand the Book without the ahadith!'

What a lie, and the lie has been caught already!

Re: # 259

I never said parents are to thrash thier children, but that is happening in real life & that is how the molvis are teaching the kids & that is how I was treated & the reference is to the hadith.

now hadiths are also another issue, imam bukhari rejected over 2 million hadiths (you can correct it if you know the exact figures) while he was working on sahi bukhari, there are still plenty of "weak" or "zaeef" hadiths which are still there and these are the reason we had "satanic verses" and "rangeela rasool".

I do not understand why we are keeping these zaeef hadiths in the books cause when other confront you, they reference to these hadiths.

Hope I get this right, another point I would like to make is the coming of "mehdi", there is a 2 page introduction in abi-daud (which has plenty of zaeef hadiths in it along with abi-maja) but I have not seen any reference to "mahdi" in the first books,bukhari & muslim, the most important topic which is discussed alongside coming of issa, is not there in early books, why not?

why are we keeping zaeef hadiths in the books when we know they are?

Re: # 251
It seems you don't have a clue about the very basic idea of human rights.

Along with your fellow urban middle class Indians, you have a highly distorted sense of human rights. To you, your right to live in a democracy, however incompetent, corrupt, inefficient and flawed, trumps the right to life for females and the right to food for the hungry.

To you burqa or hijab is a bigger symbol of oppression than the killing, displaying, objectifying (as sex objects Bollywood style)) and selling of females, practices common in your great democracy.

It seems that, in spite of your claims to be for democracy and liberty, you want to regulate personal choice of females to wear hijab or burqa and you want force them all to comply with your idea of what it means to be free for a woman.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 258
I think you do not fully understand or appreciate where and how people keep their money to try and get the best returns.

Bank deposits are only a small fraction of the money Americans put in financial institutions. Most of their holdings are kept in securities and investments not protected by FDIC or any other form of insurance.

As to the FDIC, where do you it gets the money to protect US depositors? Does it all come from the small premiums banks pay for insurance to FDIC? Of course not. Most of it comes from America's taxpayers.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#259 Posted by tahir

Everything is not in the Quran and you cannot expect the whole madhab to be drawn out from there. Quran is only instructive, the practical portion of the din is the life of the Prophet (Sunnah) which is next and the sayings of the Prophet (hadith) are the third component perhaps the weakest of the three.

Although there are several references in the Quran to the importance of praying and the punishments metted out in the grave as well as judgement day by Allah but punishments to be given in this world are only in the hadith of the Prophet. Somebody else may be able to quote the exact reference but the Hadith which I heard over and over again in the mosque as well as in our household regarding prayers for children was ‘to pray when they are seven and to use light corporal punishment for not praying when they are 10’ and in case of girls when they start menstruating which could be as early as age 9.

As far as adults are concerned according to all four schools of fiqh the person who does not pray seizes to be a Muslim. He should be warned about it and if he persists in his munafiqat executed after the third day of being consistently told to mend his evil ways. There is one hadith which may adequately convey the sentiments of the Prophet.

Sahih Bukhari Hadith:
Volume 1, Book 11, Number 617:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

‘Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is - I was about to order for collecting fire-wood (fuel) and then order Someone to pronounce the Adhan for the prayer and then order someone to lead the prayer then I would go from behind and burn the houses of men who did not present themselves for the (compulsory congregational) prayer. By Him, in Whose Hands my soul is, if anyone of them had known that he would get a bone covered with good meat or two (small) pieces of meat present in between two ribs, he would have turned up for the 'Isha' prayer.'

Re: # 246
"However,beating for not saying namaz is there too cause Allah does not like when a muslim misses a prayer"

Billy, please quote the exact ayah from the Qur'an that says parents ought to thrash the children for missing the prayers.

Also let me know where it says that one must halve the rakahs during travel.

Beware, the Prophet never did anything that went against God's final prescription for mankind; please DO NOT quote dubious CORRECT ahadeeth to support your claims.

God's Own Word is always True, that of men is usually not.

#243 Posted by RiazHaq

“Do you think the principal is protected in the West?”

Yes principal is protected for depositors at US banks upto 250,000 dollars which covers a vast majority of depositors. Despite the bank debacle that we are currently going through bank depositors whether they had money in checking or savings accounts or CDs their principal has been protected and although there may be exceptions but in general nobody has lost their principal in banks.


“Do you know what values mortgage-backed securities ……… retirement savings?.....
credit default swaps? Aren't those worthless?”

Either you are naïve or you are trying to jerk my chain. You are trying to confuse securities markets which are similar to the stock market, investment banking and traditional banking all together.

Depositors at banks are the consumers who go to the bank to protect their money (principal). Banks on the other hand can lend depositors money as loans or invest in securities etc. which is their risk. If the banks have bad loans or bad securities yes they can go under but governments regulate in a manner that the bank’s stock holders take the hit rather then depositors. So let’s take Citi, like you said their portfolios are loaded with worthless mortgage backed securities and credit default swaps but that does not mean that an ordinary depositor has lost a percentage of their deposit because of their bad investments.

Next you add retirement savings to the mix. 401Ks or IRAs are held at investment brokerage houses not ‘chartered banks’ and invest in stocks or mutual funds whose fate is entirely dependent upon the performance of the companies or the market in general. But lets say you had only invested in the Money Market in an IRA or 401K at no time except for one day in all its history did the fund slip to 99 cents from 1.00 dollar and that caused a panic and forced the bail out which occurred to restore confidence in the banking system.

You talk about passing judgement – Yes Sir! We have to pass judgement that in its severest moment of peril the whole apparatus of the world financial system insured that depositor’s principal would be protected no matter what amount of bail out was required. And yes, Joe, Harry, Gopinder and Riaz can all sleep well knowing for certain that the money that they have in Wells Fargo is still there for them to use.

Now look at the mudarbas and other heroic efforts made in Muslim countries to help capital accumulation for commercial projects. The record is absolutely dismal. In 1500 years there has not been a single instance where a financial institution based upon Islamic principles lasted for a generation (25 years). All mudarba schemes in Pakistan mostly during Zia’s Islamization time ended with investors losing all their money and the owners disappearing from the country. Even the venerated Taj Company who started their own mudarba ended in bankruptcy.

Why did this happen? Is it because Muslims inherently cannot be trusted? That in my opinion is a total cop out. We have as many good and bad people as exist in any other part of God’s good earth, and we observe it all the time. So like I said in my earlier post, it is the system, the fact that in Islam you cannot be a depositor but only an investor and that too as a venture capitalist. Now the terms for venture capital are not the same as those for bank depositors, you need to have a much higher rate of return and terms and conditions a lot more rigorous then those for banks. This has resulted in no capital formation in Muslim countries from traditional institutions, it has only been western style banks who have provided a basis for their economies to become functional which they never were before colonization.

#138 Posted by RiazHaq

Your laments show your love for your earstwhile motherland. Can you kindly enlighten us about what your great country did with those female foetuses that she preseverd? (other than pushing behind the veils)

Re: # 241
Khyber Pass:

I think I've already said what I wished to say about your nickname, now I'll move on to commenting on this.

"I did not know if Tahir was God's spokesperson.....lol"

You truly don't know, do you? Every good Muslim is God's spokesperson. Will you poke fun at the Prophets/Messengers for being exactly that?

Reform, don't laugh out aloud.

Re: # 238

Zeeba, I don't know if you're a man or a woman. If you're a woman, then I will not argue with you, but if you insist you're a man, with ZEEBA as your nickname, all I can say is this:

I've made my views very clear at Chowq regarding God's True Word: the Qur'an. If you dislike some tenets in it, then that is truly a dangerous philosophy to live by. Interpretations do vary here and there but comparing a few translations is what got me on the correct path.

May I suggest that you spend some time studying on your own, instead of learning to be old and wise through interactions at this heathen yubb-site.

May all of God's Words be with you.

Re: # 237

What sort of a nickname is RAZIAsq?

Mr. Saeed Qureshi, its hard to believe that you missed what I posted here and what I sent as an I-log!

You may wish to turn to a new page in your life at:
http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/72724/30139

Riaz,

Valmiki and Tulsidas are accepted as the authentic creators of Ramayana. Rama was Dashratha's son and Seeta was the foster daughter of Janaka.

Don't worry about who is Rama. just see what he taught by he himself practicing it. Tamilnadu CM calls him drunkard and anti dravid. There is no dearth of insane people on the earth. Unless you are already there, don't try to join them.

#103 Posted by shankar


"I think in 20 yrs, there will be a realization that there is a shortage of females for all those boys coming into marriageable age"

Well said, Shankar! May I add, it is not going to take 20 years. It has already started. Girls have started rejecting boys having annual income of Rs. 3.6 lacs plus.

However, Riaz's contention that people kill females because vedas say so is stupid. However condemnable this system is, it is not prompted by the religious beliefs. This is a rot in the system but is slightly better than bringing up a daughter and helplessly watching her being burnt alive or tortured physically and mentally. Dowry system should go and shall go on its own. But I understand that it is taking roots in Pakistan!

Riaz,

You harp on female infanticide practice in India (though it is not restricted to India). Why would you not say a word against the human indignity that is hijab/burqa. I understand this was introduced by your prophet who was jealous of his queens being ogled at by his people(?) Female infanticide is a blot. No Indian supports it. The Government of India is hammer and tongs against it. Contrast this against the honour killing in your country! Against rape in your country! Against triple talaaq in your country? Mohammed said triple talaq in one sitting was haram. It is still being practiced with impunity. You continue to call yourself a muslim? What better treatment are you meting out to your daughters? Wait for the bearded and dirty smelling husband with clean you know what and let him decide her crime and decide the punishment also?

neembu the hurler's dyking cry

Topic started by shoreneembu on Jul 7, 2009 2:21:40 am objectionable content

I am fat and forty
Blunt and boisterous
I bang the guitar and pretty much all else
And I speak loud.
I don't have curves or any shape
Let alone that of
an hourglass.
I jaunt, I slouch and I lean
Without a trace of softness
Or femininity
I am impatient, edgy
I am needy, craving stability
Craving softness
I am mannish
But not an asshole
I am a bloody dyke.

thank you and I need to make a correction, apologies for that.

"I have been in the favor of softening the rules, within such limits which does NOT voilate the quran"

Re: # 246, bhs75

Eloquently well said!

Re: # 246, bhs75

Eloquently well said!

Re: # 238

I am not a mulla (thank god for that) but I will try to write what I think.

Now, if we try to implement what was told 1500 years ago, the system will collapse, cause the time is different,situation is different, society is different.

Though saudis are sticking to that !!!

I have been in the favor of softening the rules, within such limits which does voilate the quran, but then if you say what said in quran is harsh & should not happen then we are denying the book which turns into shirk & rest is history.

The holy book is much misinterprated & twisted that it's sad to see the way people follow it these days, reason being is that we do not do research on our own, we hear from a mulla and we follow blindly. Quran is never wrong about anything but we need to dig deep and find the true meaning of what it says.

I have read about lashes and they are actually misinterprated, lashes are "symbolic" and not actually lashing out someone.

Adultry,ok this is a serious issue, there are few things that makes you unique or apart from other faiths, and adultry in islam is prohibited. period, so we cannot say ok fine I will screw around and will pay some fine or jail time in return. NO means NO, there is no debate.

Quran says no pork,no alcohol, or you will be out of the "circle" of islam, how do you define circle of islam? do you become non-muslim? many drink in the night and next day they are praying !!! that is a joke right? I believe muslim is a title and it does not change,so you are either a good muslim or a bad muslim, it's what you practice makes you what you really are.

Soft beating of women, Allah knows best but how do you define "soft beating"? with a pillow? :) this could have been symbolic as well, you think Prophet would allow beating of women? I don't think so.

However,beating for not saying namaz is there too cause Allah does not like when a muslim misses a prayer, but then again this does not mean you beat the hell out of a kid !!! it can be symbolic as well.

let me tell you, I could not hifz quran and stoppted at 21st & I remember 20 out of 30, the reason I could not finish was the beating I had from my teacher, I was too busy for my school exams & I missed out on lesson or 2 and he beat me so bad with a "wire" that I was in bed for 7 days & his justification was that "cause islam says so" !!! and that I had chosen my school over Quran !!! I lost my interest & it changed my perspective about alot of things, especially sects.

Blasphemy, if you take it simple then it's just insult by an ingnorent, I do not think you must kill that person, you can teach him or ignore him. Quresh-e-mekkah were not blasphemous? ofcourse they were but did Prophet ordered to kill anyone? His acts were humble and he would say Dua (prayer) for them and move on.

I have been writing in my earlier posts and I will say again, we must not judge anyone, we do not have this right, judgement is for Allah only, but we have grown powerful and egoestic & we are judging everyone, remindes me of lines by bhullay shah,

par par ilm tay fazil hoyun
kaday apne aap nu parya nahi
bhaj bhaj varna aen mandar, maseeti
kadi man anpay vich varya nahi
larna aen roz shaitaan day naal
kadi nafs apnay naal larya nahi
bhullay shah aasmani udyian pharona aen
jehra ghar baitha unho parhya nahi

Muslim or not, conflicts are part of human nature, again all based on personal point of views, I read a book by some molvi who openly said that karbala was a drama & never happened. if shias find him what you think they will do to him?

if you hear saad ghamdi and zakir naik about the coming of jesus,they do not know if jesus will come, they however give you answers which is never straight like "someone will come but he will bring the teaching of jesus". .... ????

Some books says that Krishan, Lord Krishna to hindus, he was a prophet as well, cause if you sees his teaching they were all similar to what phophets have been passing on.

I can go on forever but ...

As for christians and jews, yahood & nasara as quran refers to them,again Allah knows best but yes the line does say that "they cannot be your friend", & why only jews and christians? why not chinese or hindus? they were around too at that time as well !!!

This does not mean I should blow myself now, islam does ask to tolreate eachother. Phophet's life is full of such examples, no it is not conflicting, I believe the verse is correct but it refers to a point in time but is mistaken by those who translate it similar to the lines in sura tooba about jihad.

We need to keep an open mind, "humanity first" is not a bad moto. We all are capable of thinking and deciding for ourselves, we must not grow weak so to become puppets for those who treat religion as a business, hiding thier true selves under a charming face.

it is interesting to note how do people not only take pride in their strength of faith in a religion that stresses humility as 'the' personal trait, but also demean other fellow muslims to flaunt their 'better' understanding of Islam. Certainly this attitude dates back to the preIslamic era of clan pride. Evaluation and Judging is by no means a mortal's task, and the one who thinks so is definitely no different from the mulla who in his ignorance believes that sitting in the mosque entitles him to question any one's faith.

zahid nigah e kam say kisi rind ko na daikha kar
kia janay Uss Kareem ko tu hai kay woh pasand!

#238:
Zeeba, that was impressive. And instructive, at least for me. I have rarely seen Muslims express differences with the Koran openly - although in this day and age there is much to disagree with (as there is in every scripture).
Even very educated and liberal Muslim friends of mine shy away from this topic. So your remarks came as a welcome surprise.

Re: # 236
Do you think the principal is protected in the West? Do you know what values mortgage-backed securities are fetching now? And what has happened to peoples' retirement savings? How about credit default swaps? Aren't those worthless?

10c to a dollar? May be 20c or 30c in some cases?

Have you heard about toxic assets owned by major banks that cratered, requiring a huge bailout at taxpayers' expense?

Please think about the recent meltdown of the financial markets around the world before passing judgment.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 238

Zeeba:

What you write makes a lot of sense for all religions. Although the problem I see comes when a person is required to declare what his/her beliefs are. This allows people in the society to brand a person and person’s beliefs; and this is just the beginning. For example, you do not follow certain cannons of Quran or whatever other Islamic thoughts or values are. This is your personal choice, why must it be declared or become a topic of public debate. I do not understand this part. An example of another side of the same coin is that people start passing judgments on the others (believers or non-believers) based on their belief. An illustrative example is in this board, Riaz brings out material from Vedas on female child issue. His act to me (a non-believer) looks as if he believes and is convinced that all Hindus believe and must be believer and follower of Vedas as canonical laws, probably because according to him all Muslims believe in one and only thing. I have observed this phenomenon among fundamentalists in other religions too, be they are right wing Hindus, Christians, or orthodox jews.

I wish you guys should have come and reclaimed this board from Riaz Haq, Tahemed Sahib and right wing Hindus. There is far more to discuss and learn, at least for me.

Re: # 237...I did not know if Tahir was God's spokesperson.....lol

http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 238 Zeeba ...very well said and impressive post.

http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 237
This talk of "half Muslim" reminds me of the story of Mirza Ghalib after he was arrested in Delhi and hauled before a British officer following the war of 1857. When asked if he was a Muslim, the great poet responded, "I am only half a Muslim". Upon further query, Ghalib explained, "I drink alcohol but I do not eat pork. So that makes a half Muslim".
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Tahir,

I think that if you accept the muslim variation and diversity as Mr. Qureshi has expressedly shown, you'll be able understand the message that he has tried to convey here.

I read your I-log and unfortunately, your rants about Quran saying this and Quran saying that haven't really changed the historical fact of disturbing conflicts that the very close companions and family of the Prophet were afflicted with soon after his death.

I too am a Muslim, majorly because I belong to a muslim household. But that doesn't mean that I follow everything that the shariat, sunna or the Quran tells me to do, for example I don't quite follow the notion that 2 women's shahadat is equivalent to one man's, nor do I quite agree with the 'light' wife beating' as allowed in the holy book, and I belive that the sentences for adultry, blasphemy, stealing, fornication etc. are too harsh. Moreover I believe that jews and christians can be our indiscriminate friends too. Other than these, I have little or no problems with Islam. Is that too shocking for you to understand?

Mr. Qureshi, you're not the only skeptic muslim around here. The very notion of having a "Muslim Ummah" is oppressive but unrealistic. I quite agree with you on the need of reforms in Islam that are direly needed in today's world (especially in terms of tolernace and the rule of governance for many practicing muslims). But unfortunately, many scholars have deemed the fifteen hundered yr old Islamic teachings to be unchanged and invincible, completely ignoring the social transformations the muslims have undergone since the elapse of Islam.

Dear Mr.Tahir,
Thank you very much for your latest email. I was amused on your naming me as "half muslim." But the fact is that no one has ever been a full or complete muslim , because you cannot fix the limits on the faith. If you say one prayer you get less divine reward and thus the reward increases the more you observe the obligations.Thus in this field sky is the limit.

But you cannot dub the less observing faithful as half or quarter muslim, because he or she still remains a muslim.
God alone can determine who is a complete muslim. But still being half muslim is still better than not being a muslim at all.
May I assure you that I am not an absconder on intellectual queries. I would rather welcome these. If I am wrong I can correct myself.Otherwise if I have some logic in my submissions and the readers get to my point of view,I stand rewarded. I did not see your questions as the response is so overwhelming that I am lost and engaged. Could you please email your questions once again. I shall try my best to answer.
With regards,
Saeed Qureshi

It may provide ‘levity’ for us, but that should not deter you from pursuing this ‘real and large’ halal market. I cannot match your extensive research but the little experience I have had is only in banking where despite all the smoke and mirrors they tend to cast in terms of Islamic Banking in the end remains an entirely haram proposition.

Western bankers in their mad pursuit of ever shrinking ways to make money have gone full steam ahead in this minefield which will explode in their faces. You see, there is reason that no mudarba has lasted a generation. Name an Islamic mudarba in any Muslim country that has stood the test of time. In the West you have banks which lasted for hundreds of years, this gave people confidence that they could be trusted and they did fulfill their trust. Banks like the Rothchild’s although owned by Jews who were hated in Europe still did extremely well because they earned their credibility both in terms of safety of principle and an adequate return on capital.

That is just not the case in Islam at all because the only capital you can invest is as a venture capitalist and there are no safe guards at all to protect your principal. Citi or Barclays when the going gets rough will find that there rights on collecting their principal balances are very limited and the ability of their borrowers to claim losses is huge. The wisdom they are showing by getting into this business can only be matched with their participation in the sub prime mortgage market.

Let it be known to all that Mr. Saeed Qureshi has become an absconding half-Muslim; he never stood up and answered my questions that I posted as an I-log!

Re: # 232

Vertical search engines and web filters are nothing new, although their use by orthodox Jews appears to be quite creative.

As the world moves from broadcast to narrowcast, we are likely to see a lot more customized content for even narrow groups, religious or otherwise, that satisfies their own unique needs and tastes.

This Dawn blog may provide a moment of levity for a few "secular", "western wannabe" and mostly clueless Muslims in Pakistan at the expense of their more devout brethren. But I think comparing 1.5 billion global and divesrse Muslims with a small number of Jews defies all logic, to say the least. There are far too many nationalities, elasticities, denominations, thought patterns and cultures in the vast world of Islam than the fairly small world of Judaism.

Halal market, on the other hand, is real and large, and it attracts investors and businesses based simply upon the opportunity for significant returns.

I say this with experience of extensive travels and many visits to Israel, Palestine and many Muslim nations in Europe, Middle East, Asia and Africa.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Tahmed Saheb,

I am your slave indeed!!

I am a lowly hindu before you!!

Riaz Sahib:

A halal browser should definitely be part of your trillion dollar halal business plan. Check it out.

http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/07/04/halal-online/

Mr. Laddu: I surrender. You are unbeatable. Like the energizer battery cell.

Re: # 228

well, Riaz ul Haq wanted to make s comparison......I provided him the correct scenerio back home.....

Meister tahmed,

Dowry deaths were indeed the result of muslim degradation of women folk of the already enslaved hindus.

this is again a typical north indian problem and was hardly seen in south in olden days (unfortunately the north indians have corrupted the south indians nowadays as well).

women and the poor were the worst effected because of muslim enslavement in the past. It depressed their status even more in the past.

However, this situation is no more because women folk as as capable in the modern age as product assets to the family life than they were when forced unde purdah and home because of muslim hordes who could kidnap and rape them any time without any retribution in the name of dhimmitude.

#226 Laddu: please dont talk the way you do at home. This is chowk.

Prof. Laddu: I am glad you are laughing. You should hang out with Evil Muslas more often. It will help you overcome the Emotional Scars of Centuries of Oppression by Evil Muslims that cause Hindus to Kill Female Fetuses.

Re: # 220

Actually it looks like the Paki mujra girls showing off their wares in Hira Mandi!!

#222 Riaz sahib: exactly. I noticed this bogus use of statistics by pmishra as well. as they say, there are lies, damned lies, and then there are posts by hindus on chowk.

Re: # 216

LOL!!'
'
HA HA.........the two Paki Warriors keeping the flag high on the tiger Hills!!

Cobra: changing the subject wont take away the reality of the problem of hindu killings of their daughters for perceived gain by Dr. Riaz is trying to bring to the attention of hindus.

Re: # 210
You talk about Pakistan's alleged 925 girls for 1000 boys attributed to an obscure/lone researcher as a problem? Here's what your own prime minister Singh has said about the problem in India:

"Census figures illustrate that in some of the richer states the problem is most acute. These states include Punjab which had only 798 girls (per 1,000 boys), Haryana 819, Delhi 868 and Gujarat 883 girls in the 2001 Census. Growing economic prosperity and education levels have not led to a corresponding mitigation in this acute problem."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"Islam and the Islamic countries have always been kept on the receiving end by their rivals, be it Communism, Christianity or imperialism."

I couldn't bring myself to read beyond, "Islam and the Islamic countries have always been kept on the receiving end by their rivals, be it Communism, Christianity or imperialism." LOL!

Re: # 216
hamidm, Where have you been? You have been sorely missed.
Welcome back!

BTW, I see no windmills on Chowk. It looks more and more like the potholed streets with squatters of Delhi and Mumbai.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's how the British ActionAid's and Canadian IDRC's joint report about India's "Disappearing Daughters" begins:

India’s daughters are disappearing. New research by ActionAid and the International Development Research Center (IDRC) shows that the number of girls born and surviving in northern India compared to boys falls far short of normal expectations, and continues to slide.

In a country with a long history of discrimination against women, the preference for sons over daughters has led to the number of girls under the age of six hitting an all-time low. The introduction of sex-detection ultrasound technology, coupled with the long-term problem of the neglect of girls, means that millions of women are now ‘missing’ in India.

Source: http://www.actionaid.org.uk/doc_lib/disappearing_daughters_0608.pdf
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

hamidm: welcome back. I was merely holding the fort in the absence of fearless statistician Dr. Riaz and proud dotician Hamidm.

hamidm zindabad.

pmishra #214 Contradicting your bogus claim that fetus killings using sonogram is a "broad asian problem" and presenting statistics that are irrelevant to this claim lowers me to the gutter? I dont think so.

You can continue to sit on your bogus moral pedestal like other hindus on chowk though - I cant change the Result of Scars Caused by Centuries of Oppression by Evil Muslims that Prof. Laddu indicates.

.......... after many days of abstinence i decided to check in on chowk ....... and guess what i do i find? ....... it is still infested with hordes of horrible hindoos attacking two fearless pakis - don tahmed and sancho riaz who putting up a valiant fight to protect kabbadi, nihari and motherhood .......

....... it always amazes me how our horrible hindoo friends still can't get over their thousand years of humiliation ..... or maybe it has something to do with protein deficiency and their general feelings of sexual inadequacy .............

tahmed zindabad!
riaz sahib zindabad!
pakistan zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!

Mr. Laddu: I applaud once again your explanation that it is the Evil Muslim whose Cultural Genocide of Peaceful Hindus (Who Invented the Zero) in Past Centuries are Responsible for Fetus Killings.

I assume dowry burnings is also the caused by Cultural Scars on the Hindu Psyche Caused by Centuries of Oppression by Evil One-Eyed Muslims With Claws and Horns. But please confirm.

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Re: # 206
Meister Tahmed,

It takes generations to get out of slavery and slavish behaviour.
As I have already shown that infanticide or even foeticide as Bhruna Hatya is a SIN in Hinduism, thus this practice has all to do with the cultural scars on the hindu civilizational genocides that was going on by the muslim rulers since last 800 years.

pmishra #210 so fetus killing "is a broad asian issue " involving not just indians? not really - it is indians who specialize in this field.

as for your the last refuge of the scoundrel (i.e. statistics) that you take - male-female ratios have historically been skewed to some extent due to more attention given to male offspring when there is only so much food to go around.

but this abuse of modern technology (sonograms) to deliberately kill female offspring at this vast scale is a uniquely hindu thing. something pakistanis - despite being Evil Muslims and Cross-Border Terrroists - or other asians you toss in for good measure dont stoop to do.

ironmask #209 all 160 million Pakistanis can do that? in synch or as a disordered melee?

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Re: # 207 Tahmed32 :D :D This is what I meant, when I said "Pakistanis are clever and street smart and know how to twist and turn and bend with the winds" :D

That is my quota for the day(T)

tahmed32...
when a Pakistani/moslem points to these problems ( subjugation of women, illiteracy....), it is real painful for Indians :-)
you and riaz take some pseudo name of a Chinku or better a Jap....Indians will not react that way....

Iron Mask: I am glad to learn that hindus dont do anything wrong to others, only to themselves. Such purity!!

#186 Mr. Laddu: So you think that there may be a few exceptions perhaps to the rule that whenever a hindu kills his daughter to maximize profits (provided by Dr. Riaz, Head of the Chowk Statistics Department), it is because the Evil Muslims made him do it. But..how is that possible?? How can there be exceptions to the rule that the Noble Hindu Can Do No Wrong Unless Forced By The Evil One-Eyed Muslim With Claws?

Re: # 203
iron...
Pakistan indeed is a smart nation...But, you know, street smartness may not save you all the time...
They are fooling US and NATO for the last 8/9 years in the name of GWOT and Kashmir....Now, USA is getting supply route through Russia...If they succed, I am sure, Pakistan will see one of the worst nightmeres in near future....

Re: # 203
iron...
Pakistan indeed is a smart nation...But, you know, street smartness may not save you all the time...
They are fooling US and NATO for the last 8/9 years in the name of GWOT and Kashmir....Now, USA is getting supply route through Russia...If they succed, I am sure, Pakistan will see one of the worst nightmeres in near future....

Re: # 200 ngk occasionally there is a smart pakistani, you have to accept that. Pakistanis are clever and street smart and know how to twist and turn and bend with the winds. The most adept nation to be able to live in tornado alley and come out intact!

#199&200
Very very true, Sir.

There are enough reports available in the net to prove that India is sufferring from chronic hunger, AIDS epidemic, female infantiside etc...which, Pakistanis are using here in this forum...The source of these documents are neither Pakistan nor Pakistanis....We Indians have to defend ourshelves, even against Pakistanis!!!!!! :-(

Re: # 197

on Monday there will be something else...and then in two weeks there will be something else...and so on....meanwhile Hafeez and friends are free to do what they want - as long as it is not in the limelight:D

Indians always live in Denial Mode, it is not the Pakistanis. Pakistanis are way too smart for the Indians

Re: # 198 He is a smart man, who can do lots of multi-tasking and he does not have to work for a living anymore...

Yes, IM ji but what I find amazing is the amount of time he has to devote on this job even when he is into so many other things as per his profile.

Why our dost-mittar, anil, Shankar etc cant act at the same level that this gentleman is acting?

:D :D Riaz is so right...Pakistanis run rings around the Indians. Hafeez is totally free now....


Pakistan Supreme Court on Monday rejected, on technical grounds, two petitions by the Pakistan and Punjab [ Images ] governments challenging release of Hafiz Mohd Saeed, Jamaat-ud-Dawah chief and a key accused in the Mumbai [ Images ] attacks, from house arrest, prompting authorities to announce they will file fresh pleas after removing the flaws.

The petitions were submitted on Saturday even though the office of the Supreme Court registrar had not completed formalities for them to be taken up by a bench.

The petitions were rejected on Monday afternoon due to technical flaws, sources said.

Deputy Attorney General Shah Khawar told media persons that the registrar had returned the petitions as they challenged only the release of Saeed and his close aide Col (retd) Nazir Ahmed on the orders of the Lahore [ Images ] High Court.

The office of the registrar said two other JuD leaders -- Amir Hamza and Mufti Abdur Rehman -- who were originally party to the matter should also be included in the petitions, Khawar said.

A judicial review board freed hamza and Rehman, detained along with Saeed in December last year in the wake of the Mumbai attacks, in May.

Khawar said the petitions would be submitted again on Monday after removing the technical flaws.

Re: # 194 humsab it is called "second life" (T)

Re: # 193 nb there should be a section titled Riaz_haq not Indian-pakistani Slanging. This is a one man thing!

Mr. Riaz Haq

Have you been like this always or we evil hindus have turned you into what you are now? Till two days back, I was under the impression that you are a 20 something youngman and so fully empowered to go on and on the way you have been sometime with right argument and data and most of the time just to prove your point.
But recently, due to some good work done by Chowkie, I found that you are a much respected achiever rolling in something like middle age or late part of middle age.
Amazing performance, Sir.

Just looking at the last few interacts, why does every single article on FP end this way?
Can I suggest that Chowk have a separate section for Indian-Pakistan slanging where people like Riaz Haq can indulge themselves, whereas others can actually discuss things on the article boards.

NKG, I've not said anything new or outlandish. I admitted the facts while trying to show mirror to Riaz.

in one of the posts Harimau pointed out, why the tribals are like this...
Simply, they never wanted to be different and so called non tribals never tried to impose on them...now, when Govt. is trying to loot their resources, they want the share of development, which they deserve....they are loosing jungle, loosing mineral resources and even worse, people are trying to impose Christianity and HINDU culture on them.....So many tribal gods and goddesses lost their identity....Couple of them survived and VHP people are busy imposing them as avatar of Vishnu or Shiva ( indian inclusive ness!!!!!)....and they are fighting with each other in the name of Jesus and Durga...I think, in this respect, Pakistanis are little better......

sorry...
cover article of Outlook by Suzanne Arundhati Roy...

much of the points Riaz raises are quite valid, may not be in the same scale...What I like is, his setting up of good benchmark for India, which is quite decent....

VRV, it will be good to admit that many part of India is even worse than sub saharan africa...and we are making progress not in rapid pace...We can abuse Riaz or other Pakistanis, but the state of Bidharbha, Northern Maharashtra and adjacent areas of Gujrat, MP,C'tsgarh, J'kand, part of UP, Orissa and AP is realy bad state....SPread of naxalism is due to lack of development in these areas....Please read one article in Outlook...I do not like her, but her points about looting of minerals by corporates in central India is quite valid...Nehru,played lot of dirty cards in his early days as "King" of India... We are yer to get rid of this problem....

174, What does it tell? Pakistan Shining?

As for page 36, it's again the same regions that're problematic(India) & mind u it's not an all-India malady. Pakistan's under age 6 colour picture may look good and uniform in Punjab and Sindh (exception of Tharparkar dist) but by the time the children turn 7 then it becomes as grim as the adjoining regions of Punjab and Haryana due to high infant mortality rate.

Let me prick ur bubble here. Infant mortality rate in Pakistan is 66.94 (as per ur favourite source i.e. CIA World Factbook) and that of India's is 32.31. So the 'uniform' picture of Pakistan turns red as children cross their lactation stage.

Uff, u r such a empty head, Riaz.


178, India didnt have ultra sound tech & equipment?

ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL. Riazackass, the self-appointed Head of the self promoted Pak Alumni Wordlwide.

Waisay, u want to say that Islam is the way for India?

OH BTW your friends the chinese have just been on a killing spree. And guess what they have just sent some 150+ uighirs (muslims) to their maker.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8135203.stm

So I guess, they are no longer your freinds?

riaz, when it comes to female infanticide etc, the Indians are doing to themselves. They are not killing or maiming people outide their country. they are not exporting their vile ideology.

On the other hand the Pakistani establishment fro which you are a front man (for various things) export their foul and vile religious ideology to the ret of the worl and instigate young men to kill and maim their across the the world. to qoute sometihng I read "Fashionable opinion has it that fear creates terrorism, that jihadism is an invention of the paranoid western imagination. But the heartless voice instructing henchmen to kill two Jewish women hostages "because killing a Jew is worth 50 other murders" suggested that it's the other way round.

"This is a struggle between God and the unbelievers," explained one of the architects of the massacre, as he exhorted his young gunmen to kill as many unsuspecting Indians as possible. "When this is over, there will be much more fear in the world.""

So on one hand you have something which is kept internally within the Indians, and on the other you have your friends killing others.

I would like to hear your opinions on the this ideology of killing being exported by your friends

Infact, the edgy attitude of punjabis is because of all the ghallu garas and genocides that we have experienced in the past.

These genocides were un precedented and have deeply scarred the hindu psyche and destroyed their culture forever. The inculcation of martialness in every common man was actually a concious decision by the gurus and dharacharyas in response to the muslim genocide.

Sikh history has thankfully preserved an account in their history. Unfortunately such accounts were not always made a part of cultural history in other northern regions. Otherwise we would have been able to connect these dots in other cultures of UP as well.

Re: # 182
I a gree. When I was at Bangalore I found that we punjabis were RIGHTLY hated for our arrogance and uncouth behaviour.

Infact, even the muslims there were much mellowed compared to the uncouth punjabis.

Re: # 180
Laddu...
But still, I see, Indian culture alive in Southern States, Konkan and Orissa...Other places, the social indiscipline will tell you, who are they and why are they behaving such a way....The description of Megasthenes does not match with that of current Bihar or the way biharis behave. There are some definive pattern, which people here in Bangalore refer to as "brute North Indian culture"....

But then, how come those brute people composed most of the romantic literature from of Kalidasa?

How those indisiplined people can create marvels in Khajuraho or University of Nalanda with largest library of that time? A radical shift in culture....

Riaz...
I have watched South Indian girls for last 9/10 years in Mumbai and Bangalore and travelled couple of places in South India...

Many of the girls works here, are from lowest strata of society and from rural areas of Karnataka, Kerala, Tamilnadu and Andhra Pradesh....I have hardly seen any complexity of being girl.... Rather,they are far more open and honest...The veil system is non existant...A society with such value system; the scope of using technology to resort to female infanticide is very rare....

Then one CANNOT compare the muslima with modern hindu Nari.

Muslimas are still under intense pressure from Allah's shariah, the mullahs and the ummah- hindu Naris do not have any such pressures to remain at home as home makers.

Re: # 173

Riaz ul Haq ji,

South India was also under muslim rule for brief period. We all remember Mohud from delhi darabar sending his goons to Melakute and other places to destroy Ranganath temples.

Hampi was under intense attack by the momeen goons.

There are still remnants of muslim genocide in Bangalore.

These infanticidal tendencies must be more prominent in poor class and have more to do with poverty than anything else. This is a similar repsonse to the extreme situation of muslim jehad against hindus. when a culture and society is under intense pressure the first victims are the weak and poor!!!

#178...
Ultrasound does not change the culture....Those from bunsiness and farming community generaly take advantage of it...Otherwise, they would have killed their daughter after birth or used their womenflok as domestic animal...Killing does not aggravate the situation...
Ultrasound technology is nothing new in India, at least 20 years old. If you study the state and central board exams of recent years, the overwhelming dominance of girls in topper list will tell the real story....they are all between 15 to 17....
The problem is there for long time, but state Govts are trying to address it...The way, I see girls enrolment in primary and secondary schools, it does not look very bleak for India...
Furthermore, most of the BJP ruled states, they have introduced so many pro girl sops ( MP, Gujrat and Karnataka), and in Bihar even the 50% of the seats in village body is reserved for women...
Only place India is realy not making progress is reservation of seats in parliament and state assemblies...Once that is implemented; states like Rajasthan,MP and UP will join the mainstream....Long way to go; but enough to sustain society.....

Re: # 176
You are missing the whole point by talking about the past when Indians didn't have access to ultrasound technology.

The reality is shifting very rapidly and it is being recognized by Indian government as well as various world bodies.

Watch this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0II7souKPy4


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 159
Instead of overall male-female ratios, look at the child gender ratios (page 36) to see what is going on now. It paints a very different picture between India and Pakistan, showing Pakistan's more balanced male-female ratio which is consistent with the CIA World Factbook data as well.

Page 36, Figure 7

http://www.economics.pomona.edu/GarySmith/Econ190/PakistanSexRatio.pdf






Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 173
Riaz...
I am in Bangalore for last 8/9 years and know the local culture very well...
I don't need to collect data from ABC or Pak alumni?
In lot many western sites, India is now plauged by AIDS epidemic...How absurd that is I know very well...

Sorry for the bad words....

Will you mind to answer my query?
If women discrimination in India is so high and women enjoys good social and family rights in moslem countries, why their stat does not reflect that comparing India?

If you have any specific reason to state, please let everyone know....

In Banglaore, the women workforce participation in IT ( not BPO) and Research areas (Bangalore houses large number of R & D centres- IBM,HP,Intel, AMD, GE,GM, Morotola, Nokia, Samsung, Philips and NXP, Texas Instruments...) is more than 25%. In teaching job that is much higher (specialy primary education)....

I will give you some explanations...
Female infanticide is practised mostly in Bania and Farmer families of norther and western India, where anyway the girl child would have been treated like that in moslem country....Killing a girl at birth is inhuman, but using women as subhuman species and using them as domestic animal ( like many moslem countries) is far more inhuman....

Re: # 162
The cowards kill little girls because they are afraid of Muslims? That's the most convoluted explanation I have ever heard.

BTW, he is also wrong on his assertion that it's a strictly North Indian problem. It's been happening in the South as well, and it has been documented by Australian TV (see #173).
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 159
Still denying, distorting and obfuscating?
Did you note the all-important at-birth ratios?

Here are the latest statistics from the CIA's The World Factbook on male-female ratios in India, Pakistan and China:

India at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.1 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.9 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

Pakistan at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.88 male(s)/female
total population: 1.04 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

China at birth: 1.1 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.13 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.91 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

The at-birth male-female ratios in Pakistan are comparable to most of the rest of the world, including the West, but the Indian ratios are the worst in the world. In spite of China's one child policy, the ratios in China are better than India's.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2 018.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 160
Fear of Muslims?
South India doesn't have the problem?

Well, ABC Australia has produced a whole documentary to document female infanticide in Tamil Nadu. Here's a YouTube video clip from it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnmtKLQRh6g

In India's southern state of Tamil Nadu, female infanticide is so frequent that all second daughters are known as 'the girl born for the burial pit'.

Desperately poor families routinely kill girl babies after birth for fear they can't afford to raise them or provide the extortionate dowry required by a groom's family. Pavati's husband killed her second daughter the day she was born. She went home to her father's house and didn't eat for a month following the death but with two other children she had to return to her tiny hut and carry on. Another baby, Hymera was luckier, brought to a safe house by her uncle despite fierce opposition from his neighbours. Now she is cared for by people who value her life. Teenage girls sit in a circle in a coconut grove discussing the strengths they will need as India's next generation of mothers. A report on the attempts of agencies, such as the Indian Council for Child Welfare, to stop infanticide through re-education, training of women and providing homes for unwanted girl babies. So far prosecuting local mothers for murder has done little more than punish the saddest victims of a social tragedy.

Produced by ABC Australia
Distributed by Journeyman Pictures


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

A rare free and frank assessment that too from a Muslim pen...congratulations.

Now what is to be done. IMHO, all muslims from top to bottom should agree for :-

1. No use of Islam for grabbing or controlling political power.
2. Military should not interfere in political Establishment.
3. Secular Islamic nations i.e. governments neither encouraging Islam nor discouraging Islam. Islam be best left to its followers and community.

Political Islam or use of Islam for political purposes should be strict No and Religous Islam should only be YES.

Re: # 141

it's Sahib.

I do not say everyone is a saint among us, there are few who always give religion a bad name.Islam is a religion of peace but like I said, few have misused it & that has hurted the image & claim of the religion, and normally when one does that everyone else suffers.

Bashir's case is no different,he misused his power and had many killed but that does not mean that "islam" told him to do so !!! that is an act of a single person, not the community. you think we should say all hindus are bad for what happend in gujrat?, no, again that was act of a few but everyone suffers,this is how it goes.

9/11, wather muslims were involved or not, that is another debate but it has hurt the image & reputation of muslims everywhere and even though alot of us condemns 9/11, we still come under the radar, cause of our association with the religion. that is why I have said that some have "kidnapped" my religion.

I say again, every religion holds within it a message of peace, but the religious hatred has grown so much that all the positive things are overlooked now a days.

peace.

tahmed ji,

I have lived in south india for quite some time and have soaked through their culture as well.

The phenomenon of female infanticide is typical of Hyryana, Punjab and all such regions which were in the direct zone of conflict with the muslim hordes.

Johur was a practice that was became in vogue in rajasthan and surroundings after the sexual slavery of the hindu queens in harams of the muslim bandits became well known.

clearly, then "purdah" of hindu women became strictly enforced during the moghul rules. In face hindu women did not wear blouses till the muslims forced them into long purdahs and ghoonghats.

Even till last century women in south never wore a stitched thing called blouse. All the denigration of female as Abrahmic sin became more pronounced with muslim rule.

I am not saying that it is all because of muslims - but muslim slavery contributed a lot more to these practices of female infanticides and sati that is still deep in the hindu psyche!

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Re: # 138
Riaz Haq...
You are not answering my question......
If female infanticide is such a big problem, how India has decent (though not enough) female population in list of high achievers?

I have given two examples
a. Koneru Hampi- World Number 2 in chess ( aged bellow 25)
b. Saina Nehwal- World Number 7 in Badminton. (aged bellow 25).

In 10th and 10+2 exams, girls outshine boys....
In Civil Services examinations,success of % of women are increasing day by day...

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/3-women-take-long-road-to-ias-top-3/ 454654/

Can you please provide women high achievers from moslem world? And theose women should be brought up in misla country, not in USA, India , UK or some civilised place..

Ahmed saab, I challenge u to produce a news of dowry burning in the last one month. Bride burning cases are very 'rare' and those case wudnt change statistics anyway, unless every household does it. Moreover dowry is not an all-India issue.

Sri Ram Burnt Pakora: Thanks for red-flagging my and Riaz sahibs posts. After all, how dare bad muslims point to anything wrong in India when the whole world knows that every hindu is more pious than Pope Benedict himself.

Riaz Sahib: and i notice the organization was started by a gentleman who has a christian name. Clearly this is a conspiracy of the Abrahamists - muslims terrify poor hindu parents into killing their daughters, and then bad christians come and save them thus making poor hindus look even worse. :-(

Riaz sahib: An organization to save girls from murder at the hands of their parents. India has to be the only country in the world to require such an organization.

However, as Mr. Laddu explains, parents kill their daughters in India out of fear of muslims. How sad. How bad these muslims are indeed to make parents kill their daughters!! :-(

laddu #160 writes "Actually the female infanticide is the result of fear and terror that muslim rule "

Thanks. That explains it.

Could you also provide the scientific reason for dowry burnings and how muslims make pious hindus do it? Thanks in advance.

Btw, I need not join any tehreek to save a girl child. My province has better sex ratio than Pakistan. So u need to do join the Save Girl Child tehreek in Pakistan.

http://www.mapsofindia.com/census2001/sexratio/sexratio-andhraprade sh.htm

It's not difficult to understand why this garbage dumped here all day. Riaz is making a case for Islam in India and we can see thru it.

Actually the female infanticide is the result of fear and terror that muslim rule in the north has induuced in the last 800 years of hindu genocide.

Why is it that such s fear is not seen in south india but is typicsl of northern regions like Rajasthan, Punjab, Haryana and UP where the genocide of hindus was the maximum??

The premium on hindu male child was from the need to resist and fight these muslim terrorists since women were not good at physical wars.

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Re: # 154
tahmed sahib, I think these guys should volunteer for and support India's Save a Girl Child Organization, instead of spewing hatred here. This act of kindness will probably help redeem them. Here's the link: http://www.savegirlchild.org/

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

iron mask #147: i hope when killing female fetuses they distinguish between local and surrogate fetuses. I dont think their clients would be too happy to learn that the pre-natal ayah in India got the fetus killed on account of being female.

iron mask #147: i hope when killing female fetuses they distinguish between local and surrogate fetuses. I dont think their clients would be too happy to learn that the pre-natal ayah in India got the fetus killed on account of being female.

Riaz Sahib #149 I guess they learn US slang from the 19th century but bring their other bad habits from India like killing female fetuses along with them. I feel bad for these Indian bigots. No wonder they come to chowk emitting smoke. :-(

#153 I dont think well known Indian bigots take time off for something called a vacation. Instead, they spend their weekends on keyboards writing American slang from the 19th century (the Reverend Arch-Bigot Arjun being a case in point).

As the well known Indian bigots on Chowk, particularly the right-wing NRIs of the "India Shining" variety, return from the 4th of July weekend, I fully expect an avalanche of personal insults and unrestrained abuse to come in my direction.

As they engage in a campaign of personal attacks, these bigots will also deny, distort and obfuscate the reality of India's female genocide that prime minister Singh wants to fight with his "Save the Girl Child” campaign. He has said that no nation could claim to be part of a civilized world if it condoned female feticide.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

corr: not abortion (abolished) but sex determinatoion tests

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Re: # 147
The total human organ trafficking market, mostly kidneys, in 2008 was about $50m. Both India and Pakistan are among the top eight poor countries where human organs are sold to patients from the rich countries.

http://www.esot.org/Files/Elpat/Content_Files/CTpiTSydney%20Presentation%20B os.pdf


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 144
tahmed sahib, Unfortunately, the practice of female feticide is not limited to the Indians living in India. It extends to the Indian diaspora in the West.

The male-female ratios of British Indians are also getting increasingly skewed in favor of male children. Since the 1970s, the at-birth male-female ratio of British Indians has dramatically change from 103:100 to 114.4:100, excluding the birth of the first or the second child.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Sri ram mullah32 - now that we have answered that question here is another one - why does pakiland has more terrorists in a square mile than any other place in the world?...

here is the article
source:http://www.webmd.com/infertility-and-reproduction/features/womb- rent-surrogate-mothers-india



Womb for Rent: Surrogate Mothers in India

WebMD Feature from "Marie Claire" Magazine

By Abigail Haworth

Marie Claire magazine logo

Customer service, tech support...these days we outsource everything to India. So why not pregnancy? Here is a report on the growing number of Indian women willing to carry an American child.

The midday sun is ferociously hot outside the Akanksha Infertility Clinic, a scuffed concrete building in the small Indian city of Anand. Crammed into a single patch of shade by the gate, a stray cow and a family of beggars — caked so uniformly in dung-colored dust they resemble clay models — wait out the noontime heat.

Hearst Maireclaire Photo of India Pregnant Bellies

Inside, the lobby is jammed with barefoot female patients in circus-bright saris. Nurses in white Indian tunics scuttle among them, hollering out names and brandishing medical files. The air smells faintly of sweat and damp cement. On the walls, blurry photos of babies and newspaper clippings celebrate the clinic's raison d'être: "The Cradle of the World" declares one headline.

In this case, the metaphor is also literal. The Akanksha clinic is at the forefront of India's booming trade in so-called reproductive tourism — foreigners coming to the country for infertility treatments such as in vitro fertilization. The clinic's main draw, however, is its success using local women to have foreigners' babies. Surrogacy costs about $12,000 in India, including all medical expenses and the surrogate's fee. In the U.S., the same procedure can cost up to $70,000.

How surrogacy came to be so popular in the choking backwater of Anand, a dairy community with a population of 150,000 in India's western state of Gujarat, is a long story. The short answer is Dr. Nayna Patel, 47, the clinic's director. A charismatic woman with flowing hair and a toothpaste-commercial smile, Patel single-handedly put Anand on the map when, in 2003, she orchestrated the surrogacy of a local woman who wanted to "lend" her womb to her U.K.-based daughter.

The woman gave birth to test-tube twins — her own genetic grandchildren — and the event made headlines worldwide. Afterward, Patel was inundated with requests for surrogacy. She now has 45 surrogate mothers on her books, mostly impoverished women from nearby villages. Twenty-seven of them are currently pregnant, and each will be paid between $5,000 and $7,000 — the equivalent to upwards of 10 years' salary for rural Indians. More than 50 babies have been born at the clinic in the past three years, half to Westerners or Indians living overseas.

Another example of third-world exploitation? Globalization gone mad? The system certainly lends itself to the criticism that foreign women unwilling or unable to pay high Western fees happily exploit poor women at a tenth of the price it would cost back home. The system also avoids the legal red tape and ill-defined surrogacy laws women face in the U.S. (Not to mention that India, unlike some developing countries, has a fairly advanced medical system and doctors who speak English.) Or is it a mutually beneficial relationship?

Re: # 145 not only that, you guys must have heard about the latest in India - womb rentals(T)

Its for real, and there are plenty of people from America, Arab countries etc going there and renting wombs. You guys are behind times in your research. It is more economic then the stuff you are talking about.

Keep with the times and upto speed, kiddos

Riaz Sahib: I guess we can call fetus killing and dowry burning as being part of the Indian School of Economics.

#142 Riaz Sahib: In other words, there is a hundred fold profit!! Same like dowry burnings where sri ram gets the dowry as return on investment.

#142

You are an ignorant close minded fool. Let me tell remind you of something. An Indian woman kicked your vaunted "martial race" army's ass so hard that half your country was liberated from people of your ilk.

It is people like you and your ilk who treat women like cattle. Who do you think you are fooling with warped "scholarship"? By running your mouth off, you have demonstrated not just to us, but your own countrymen and compadres that they have had enough of your brain farts.

Let me leave you with this thought. Indian women kick ass. Watch out for them. They have more grace and knowledge in their little finger than you will ever learn in 5 life times.

Now shoo...

Re: # 140
tahmed:
Girls are considered a burden on parents' while boys are regarded as parents' social security cards in India.

So, there has always been a bias against women in Indian society....as can be seen by the customs of suttee, abandoning of widows to fend for themselves and the occurence of female infanticide shortly after birth. In some cases the little girls born live are poisoned or strangulated while in other cases they are left to starve to death.

But I think one of the main reasons for the recent accelerated rate of female feticide is the abuse of ultrasound technology to determine the gender of the unborn.

The purveyors of the ultrasound business in every city, town and village of India entice parents by telling them to "spend 500 rupees now and save 50,000 rupees later.” The cost of the ultrasound scan is Rs. 500 and the required dowry for marrying daughters off exceeds Rs. 50,000.00.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 125 Posted by bhs75 on July 4, 2009 11:30:50 pm

bhs75 sahib/sahiba?

What many call religion, actually contains two components: one is the spiritual content, which is written in holy books, and the other component is the organization of people surrounding these holy books.

The arguments has always been between many organizations of these spiritual meanings that is being promoted, and accentuated at any given time in history.

The bigger these organizational structures are the more they have for promoting their own understood values.

Now, would it be possible for the muslim world which continues to claim that they belong to "a religion of peace" get Sudanese President Bashir arrested and have him tried for genocide in Darfur?

Riaz Sahib: Why do you think Indians kill female fetuses?

Chowk staff,

Please be careful and considerate regarding this red flagging business. For some reason, only indian interactors are being red flagged, although it appears to me that no chowk violations have been committed. You must understand that your own slogan of "unflinching idealism" is being marginalized.

Re: # 129
nkg, I usually avoid talking to extreme bigots like you but I'll make an exception this time.

Instead of looking at accomplished middle-aged Indian women, you should compare the at birth numbers as pointed out by pundit(#85) earlier. What India is doing now is killing future Indra Noyis of India.

Here are stats from the CIA world factbook

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2 018.html

India at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.1 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.9 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

Pakistan at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.88 male(s)/female
total population: 1.04 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

As pundit (#85) also said, "numbers from Pakistan are comparable to the most countries including many western countries but the Indian numbers are worst in the world".


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Rainbow: you write "DO YOU NEED RELIGION ??? Lets spread love and peace,in 2009" isnt "love and peace" religion as well? if you were to be fully rational, why would "love and peace" be so important? love and peace are clearly necessary for the survival of humans. but what are humans but merely one of thousands of species that form 1% of all species that ever lived, occupying this thin outer later we call the biosphere that covers this tiny speck of dust we call the earth that forms part of an insignificant part of the known universe?

so - like it or not, giving importance to "peace and love" makes it a religion too. since pure logic would say nothing associated with humans is worth mentioning.

#124: rainbow sahib is against all religions, not just islam. but you are welcome to exempt hinduism if you like. after all, we all know that hindus are so pious.

tahir the G man how are you saab?

RAINBOW-09 is a certified confused clown who 'is losing his religion' by repeatdely listening to REM's song with the same title.

Mr. Qureshi, I'll await your response at:

http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/72724/30139

If you choose not to reply, you'll stand in queue behind Dr. Khalid Sohail who ran away after begging for an open discussion!

Your turn now.

NKG,

I agree with your points, you missed out Sunita Williams, who holds record for most time spent on ISS (195days) & 2nd best record for time outside ISS (29 hours 17 minutes)during EVA, so she break the record for longest single spaceflight by a woman.

(now that's the kind of lady I like !!!)

Now, back to your question,

answer is simple,

India has,

better growth (development)
better access to education
better (foriegn investment)


and this has been encouraged from the start where in Pakistan, well, it has started recently & still needs a tune-up,mostly it's the girls who top in exams but then they just disappear !!! could be social could be family, I don't know, I am sure a girl in india also has to fight her way thru the system to get to the top.

we need to set it all straight, encourage females involvement in various sectors,bring down the gender wall and only then we will be able to see them rising up the channel as the indian women have.

Re: # 121
Rainbow...
Yeh....and,so, you see such anti musla sentiments accross the world!!!!

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Re: # 123

Absolutely BS,

Actually now it is "God and Allah is Dead".

The world is not religious more at all. It is ONLY in Islamic world that uses political Islam to rule the common muslims that is seeing the artificially insemination of religiousity in common man.

All these Islamic countries is infested with maniacs like Riaz-ul-Haq who have used political Islam to rule over common man. They support dictators and call it the rule of nizam-e-mustafa. They are pushing their heinous agendas in the name of Halaal.

Once, these corrupt muslims are exposed, all the internet glut and Islami propaganda would end .

Then Paistani muslims would stop thinking and regurgitating their Paki School Text Books all over the internet.

Once political Islam is dsdtroyed , its ideologues like riaz-ul-haq would also be destroyed.

anil# : "Why because religion is personal matter and nothing more."

.....i am not familiar with every religion, but to the best of my knowledge, religions, generally, describe some mechanism of personal behavior and some mechanism of social (i.e. govt.) behavior also....i.e. secularism is, actually, not defined within religions.....secularism is, basically, an in-between stage, which has been defined to figure out some way of running a country.....

i doubt secularism will last too long.....it is too weak philosophically......eventually, the world will be divided between two philosophically stronger systems - religion and atheism.....europe is moving along quite quickly.....eventually usa will catch up also....i read somewhere, 14% of americans are atheists......

"The countries where it is reduced as personal matter, they have progressed. One that is undeniable is that separation of Church and State is the critical success factor. "

...as highlighted by me earlier, this is not accurate either.....there doesn't seem to be a direct relationship.......america is the most powerful western nation, but the least secular......china is atheist, and should be even more advanced than western nations, as religion would have nearly zero interference in public affairs....

reducing progress to either introducing religion or excluding it, from somewhere can only be supported by very simplistic arguments.....such arguments usually indicate the religious views of the person making the arguments - both for it or against it.......

india was a secular country, since 47, but was the basketcase of the world.....despite having a significant amount of resources.......it has, now, started making progress.......has it become more secular, and thus making progress......in my opinion, it has become less secular.....yet is making more progress......i don't think religion/secularism had anything to do with it........

For those in favor of "one world" without a religion,

faith & religion cannot be taken out from this world,likewise, conflicts in human nature will always be there,if not because of the religion then something else but you cannot say a world without religion will be at peace.

As long as you have factors like hunger, poverty,access to education, health etc etc. around, you will always face disturbance wather at local level or at the global level, these are social though but everything is connected to another.

if you want "one world", then you will have to bring everyone to a same level, which is never going to be possible.

For a long time we've been hearing to "tolerate" one's faith/religion,but I say we must "respect" first,how can you tolerate something if you cannot respect? it all starts with it.

I do not think any religion talks about hurting your fellow being, no matter how deep no matter how fanatic they may seem, there is a message of peace in every religion, but sadly human nature tends to bend towards negative things, this does not apply to everyone but majority does.

Now a days religion is mixed with commercialism, and those who hold authority are abusing it, twisting it as they like fit and those who follow these authorities act blindly on whatever is told to them.

For Islam,being a muslim,I put the blame on our Mullas whose job was to teach & train a society but instead they took a redical approach so thier stomachs remain full all the time and religion has become a business, they have kidnapped the religion and that is why islam holds such an ugly impression over other religions now.

Likewise, I am sure there is a pandit somewhere teaching the same to hindus & rabbi preaching the same to jews and the same for christians as well.

We,as an individual have become so weak in this department that we do not figure out the truth and follow what they tell us, which is wrong, listening is another thing but to act on it,once must do his own research to make sure he is not being misled.

how many muslims pray regularly? when was the last time you had given sadqa? when was the last time you read quran with translation? how many hadeeth you know?

how many hindus worship everyday? how many read bhagwat geeta? how many remember it?

how many christians go every sunday? how many remember chapters from bible or luke or matthew?

so you see, everyone suffers weakness in thier religions cause we have forgotten our individual responsibility and commitment to the religion and we have ignored it's true essence cause we do not search on our own instead we rely on others to tell us.

as long you keep a negative approach towards another religion,as long you do not respect it, you cannot have peace on earth & that is that !!!

Peace.

you are the first muslim who has correctly identified all the deficiencies of islam as religion, if what taliban is doing is despicable,then what mohmed and his cohorts did 1400 years ago is equally despicable.use of religion and god for self aggradisement(not salvation)is highest in case of islam.(this problem exists in other religions also but others have relegated religion to backside of public life and politics but it aparently seems separation of religion and public life is NOT possible in islam)

In 1882 Nietzsche said: "God is dead!"

In 1900 God said: Nietzsche is dead!

The world is more religious today than 1882, the year Nietzsche pronounced God dead!

There are many indications that religions are having a resurgence in almost all parts of the world with the exception of Western Europe. The world religions that have the most rapid growth rate are Islam and Evangelical Protestantism. An Islamist party now rules secular Turkey and Hindu nationalists' Hindutva ideology is continuing to gain traction in India, even though their party was defeated by Secular Congress party in the most recent elections.

Religion is increasingly becoming a force to be reckoned with, as it becomes a refuge for the fears, anxieties and desires that seem to be a response to the peculiar difficulties of life in the modern secular world.

It is likely to remain an essential part of the modern life, and its role, and interactions within the secular public domain will need to be negotiated by communities and governments around the world.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

After reading my three posts,think seriously and ask yourself,DO YOU NEED RELIGION ???Lets spread love and peace,in 2009 you don't need religion,tear down all worship places.

Hinduism is the worst belief ever discovered on the History of this planet where individual insult and discrimination is unmatchable. one of the worst things about hinduism is, and always has been, the caste system.

Christianity And Islam—Which Is The Worst?

The origins of both religions are based on the claims of two men, Jesus and Mohammed, and both men proved equally incapable of demonstrating their divine mandate. From that perspective, the two creeds are equally based on false propositions and can be classified as nothing more than lies. Throughout the Middle Ages in Europe, the Christian Church was the most militarily powerful organization in that continent. Being the largest landowner and the biggest tax collector provided the Pope with huge amounts of money, which were used to solidify his power by establishing a potent armed force.
For most of the sixty-three years of his life, Mohammed was a merchant, then a religious leader, and finally a general. He was an active military leader for ten years. While Jesus told his disciples to spread his teachings by persuasion, Mohammed ordered his followers to do it by the sword, and that is what they did once he died. They launched into one of the most enthusiastic conquering ventures the world has ever seen and forged an empire that extended from Central Asia to the southwest of Europe.
Judaism and HINDUISM are also same,both preach hate and violence like Islam and Christianity,both teachings are false.

I hate all religions,does not matter its Islam, Judaism, Christianity,hinduism,they all have two faces,one face tells you about peace,love etc,other face preaches hate,killing ,destruction,all religions should be banned,in 2009 people don't need religion,all those who created religions were human beings like you n me,they all lied to you about talking to God, etc,they were just psycho cases who had helucinations,lets ban all the religions and world will turn into a peaceful planet.

anil#116:

Kerala's experience is totally different. It is perhaps the only state where the sex ratio is more than 1000, that is there are more females per thousand males. This certainly shows the more enlightened social aspects of that state but it would be wrong to attribute it to greater literacy; although I have not seen any data (there may be some available, though), my hunch is that the problem in Delhi, Punjab and Haryana is as well spread among the more educated as it is among the less educated. Especially now that the process is illegal, it is only well-off and those with connections who can find a doctor willing to test for the gender and abort the female baby.

Malaysia offers a pragmatic model of a modern Islamic secular state where the state religion is Islamic but all sects and denominations are free to pursue their religious obligation without any let or hindrance or state coercion. There prevails an exemplary religious harmony between Islam and Unislamic faiths on one hand and among the sects within Islam


This is a popular myth among some folks. But temple demolitions and a zealous conversion campaign (11 month old breastfeeding children as well as dead husbands have been converted in this paragon of tolerance) cast doubts on these claims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Malaysia#Persecution
http:/ /www.hindusangam.org.my/news/index.php?id=123
http://blog.taragana.com/n/malays ian-hindu-mother-challenges-husband-who-converted-their-3-children-to-islam-3107 2/
http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=27360&sec=59&con=22

Re: # 113

Dost sahib:

Don't you think that the biggest perpetrators of this evil, much like that of dowry are women. I think education and empowerment is the answer. I wonder, if you have any data on Kerala? I suspect it would be different there.

Riaz ul Haq is now quoting the usual dawah and christian/dalit evangelic contortions and as well as Islami propaganda about pagan 'infanticide' .

Garuda Purana clearly give a great description of the kinds of sins that leads to various Narak especially the river of sin called "vaitarani".......and that includes 'infanticide' as well as forced 'abortion'....

Paki muslims should first get their fundas cleared up before they regurgitate their mullah's negative propaganda about Hindu faith....


"CHAPTER IV.
An Account of the Kinds of Sins which lead to Hell.

1. Garu�?a said: For what sins do they go on that great Way? Why do they fall into the Vaitaraṇî? Why do they go to hell? Tell me this, O Keśava.

2. The Blessed Lord said: 'Those who always delight in wrong deeds, who turn away from good deeds, go from hell to hell, from misery to misery, from fear to fear.

3. The righteous go into the city of the King of Justice by three gateways, but the sinful go into it only by the road of the southern gate.

4. The Vaitaraṇî River is only on this very miserable way. I will tell you who the sinners are who go by it.

p. 31

5-12. Slayers of Brâhmiṇs, drinkers of intoxicants, slayers of owe, infanticides, murderers of women, destroyers of the embryo, and those who commit secret sins,

Those who steal the wealth of the teacher, the property of the temple or of the twice-born; those who take away the possessions of women, and those who steal the possessions of children;"

The phenomenon of female infanticide in North Indian lands of Punjab, Haryana , UP etc has more to do with the wounds of the past where the need to produce male child to fight external aggression was the only solution to a culture and religion facing extermination at the hands of Arabic marauders.

Such phenomenon has hardly been seen in South India which hardly faced such a situation of total annihilation.

Re: # 110

"blind faith in democracy .."

Now the Paki Army baand Master is alluding to the Halaal Political Order of Nizam-e-Mustafa!!

Shankar, anil#111:

That hypothesis is not new. Professor Dharma Kumar, a feminist, had said the same thing back in the seventies when the phenomenon first started. True to her prediction, there is now a shortage of wives in Punjab and Haryana but it hasn't stopped the evil practice.

Re: # 103

Shankar;

It is funny you mentioned. My niece told me that in her class at IIM Bangalore they actually discussed the same thing, that society will demand dowry and demand and respect for females will increase.

Re: # 104

Riaz:

"...Veda or anything is not the final answer...."

Veda is not Quran, not final but mere compilation of knowledge of the time known to them. Is this too much for you to understand? And then doubt others, to show how much more knowledegable than others. With this logic, computer must be the most intelligent for you, as it can store data in memory, process and rgurgitate.

Re: # 100
Anil, I know it's hard for you realized it, but you are far more dogmatic than I am, particularly when it come to your blind faith in democracy and free markets that you have been brainwashed with.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 106
Yes, China does have a problem, stemming from its misguided one-child policy. But India, a democracy, doesn't have a one-child policy, and yet, it is witnessing a rapid unfolding of a female genocide in the making across all classes, including the upper caste rich and the educated.

The situation is particularly alarming among upper-caste Hindus in urban areas of Punjab's Fatehgarh Sahib district, where there are only 300 girls for every 1,000 boys, according to published research.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 107
Dost, I think you should read some of the ludicrous, even personally venomous, responses already showing up here to my interacts. But I know you are different.

You are among the most thoughtful and balanced interactors on Chowk, and I am sure you, with very few other exceptions, are light years of the rest of the Indian or Pakistani Chowkies.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz#103:

"The first step toward correcting a problem is to acknowledge it, as your wise prime minister has done."

Do you know an Indian chowkie, ANYONE, who does not acknowledge the problem? If no, you are wasting your interacts, no?

Riaz Haq: if you will quote hate sites, you cannot expect people to listen to you. Neo Brahminist government of India indeed. There's a girl deficit in China too, can you blame Hinduism?

Re: # 103
Shankar,
The first step toward correcting a problem is to acknowledge it, as your wise prime minister has done.

My sincere hope is that men of honor and goodwill such as Manmohan Singh can step up with a national campaign to stop this ongoing Indian female genocide before it's too late.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 100
Anil, Personal insults are not a good substitute for requisite knowledge and ability to respond to the crux of my comments.

I think you should make a serious effort to increase your knowledge and intellectual prowess rather than hurl abuses.

The only thing personal abuses do is diminish you as a person of intellect in the eyes of others.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I think in 20 yrs, there will be a realization that there is a shortage of females for all those boys coming into marriageable age. That's the only way our damn culture will change. I cant wait for the day where a bride is going to demand dowry. I see a silver lining to this genocide.

Re: # 100

Riaz;

BTW, Veda or anything is not the final answer. So get over it. It will help you learn.

Riaz:

You should look learn into future for growth and solutions. All (repeat after me that I said all, that includes Islam) were very powerful and important systems (= thoughts, and practices) for their time. Now can you think what will I say the next. I can tell you it would not be what you have written. You show your inability to comprehend the evolution of human knowledge, because you are so "buried alive" in the past that you see dynamism only in it. Of course only idiots and fools will say that they were not dynamic for their times, but saying it now can make one too. Just look at OBL, I can name hindus and christians too to complete, so that you do not call me a religious bigot.

Riaz:

I hate to call to call you idiot. Therefore, my short answer is NO I AM NOT DENYING. I am having a pity on your penchant to link everything to something you perceived to be "final" due to your dogmatic thinking.

Re: # 85
Pundit, Thanks for sharing the data on male-female ratios.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 96
Anil: "He would quote Vedas, as if today anyone believes them to be the final with the same vigor as he does."

Are you denying the practice of female foeticide that you own prime minister admits is taking place in India right now? Are you denying that this practice has anything to do with Hindu beliefs and practices that started in the Vedic period, after the Aryan invasion of India?

If you are, then you are living a fool's paradise, blissfully ignorant of the ground realities in your country of origin.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 96
Anil, You continue to attack me personally and distort my comments to suit your own personal agenda. It seems that you either do not understand the simple mechanisms built within Islam (such as Ijtihad) to deal with the changing world realities, or you are simply bent upon denouncing Islam and Muslims as outdated 7th century creations unable to change, and therefore deserving of no space in the modern marketplace of ideas.

If you (and others engaging in debate here) are really sincere in your pursuit of knowledge about Islam, my advice to you is to understand how Islam is a dynamic system of beliefs that has prescribed Ijtihad to contextually interpret and re-interpret its teachings without violating the basic principles. Just google Ijtihad and you can find lots of information about what it means and how it can be applied.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 39

FerozK:

"...On a parenthetical note, why must Islam and Muslims be time-locked in the 7th century? Why can't the Muslim thought not realize that the 7th century was 14 centuries ago and it is time to move into the 21st century. :) ..."

I am glad a Muslim (= you, I presume) is asking. Riaz's rants are limited to his depression regression into past. He is good to fight right wingers hindus, christians jews etc. Nothing more.

If he has something to answer this question, I am avidly waiting to hear. According to this non-Muslim, this inability comes from dogged belief in finality of message and finality of messenger. Nothing beyond 7th century is possible in the development of human thought and knowledge unless it conforms to this finality.

He would quote Vedas, as if today anyone believes them to be the final with the same vigor as he does. People like him are unable to see because they have constrained the logic to the limited universe.

Re: # 57

Romair:

I agree with you. Religion is not the cause of decline. Its staying in power beyond, like all other doctrines, is when it become regressive. This is when it creates problems in the modern days. If you see the relative wealth of religious and not so religious individuals you will find another interesting story.

Why because religion is personal matter and nothing more. The countries where it is reduced as personal matter, they have progressed. Now those individuals may be more religious as individuals.

One that is undeniable is that separation of Church and State is the critical success factor.

Re: # 70

Carbon:

Well said...

Re: # 91

Still stretching.

Re: # 89
major, Instead of denying it or laughing about this horrible Indian practice, you should be crying at the unfolding tragedy in your nation. I think your wise prime minister understands something your narrow mind does not. He has said that no nation could claim to be part of a civilized world if it condoned female foeticide.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 89

Nice. Its quite wide and still stretching.

The researchers looked at a representative sample of about 6,500 households in five districts in states already known to have especially skewed sex ratios: Punjab, Rajasthan, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh. The sex ratio had dropped in four of the five districts, compared to 2001 census data. And worst of all, there were only 300 girls for every 1,000 boys among upper-caste Hindus in urban areas of Punjab's Fatehgarh Sahib district.

"There's only a third of the girls there should be in those communities. We're talking about whole villages where there are hardly any girls and we're talking about classrooms with no girls in them, and streets where only boys are playing." Ms Turquet said.

This tragedy is no secret in India – the real tragedy is that Indian society, and even stringent legislation -- seem powerless to stop it. In April Prime Minister Manmohan Singh – who has three daughters -- launched the “Save the Girl Child” campaign. He declared that no nation could claim to be part of a civilised world if it condoned female foeticide. An estimated 50 million girls have been sacrificed because of son preference.

"Census figures illustrate that in some of the richer states the problem is most acute. These states include Punjab which had only 798 girls (per 1,000 boys), Haryana 819, Delhi 868 and Gujarat 883 girls in the 2001 Census. Growing economic prosperity and education levels have not led to a corresponding mitigation in this acute problem," he said.

"Female illiteracy, obscurantist social practices like child marriage or early marriage, dowry, poor nutritional entitlements, taboos on women in public places make Indian women vulnerable. The patriarchal mindset and preference for male children is compounded by unethical conduct on the part of some medical practitioners," the PM said.

http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/a_nation_without_women/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Exactly what I said - the burn up riaz paki's was deep and wide - 3 posts in one go... LOL

"The real horror of the situation is that, for women, avoiding having daughters is a rational choice. But for wider society it's creating an appalling and desperate state of affairs," said Ms Turquet. Despite India's growing prosperity – or perhaps because of it -- there is growing pressure on women to produce sons, because girls are seen as an expense, rather than an asset. To marry them off, parents have to pay a huge dowry. “Spend 500 rupees now and save 50,000 rupees later,” is a slogan which every parent has heard.

Source: http://www.mercatornet.com/articles/view/a_nation_without_women/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here's a BBC report on female fetus abortions in India:

More than 10m female births in India may have been lost to abortion and sex selection in the past 20 years, according to medical research.

Researchers in India and Canada for the Lancet journal said prenatal selection and selective abortion was causing the loss of 500,000 girls a year.

Their research was based on a national survey of 1.1m households in 1998.

The researchers said the "girl deficit" was more common among educated women but did not vary according to religion.

The unusual gender balance in India has been known about for some time.

In most countries, women slightly outnumber men, but separate research for the year 2001 showed that for every 1,000 male babies born in India, there were just 933 girls.

Ultrasound

The latest research is by Prabhat Jha of St Michael's Hospital at the University of Toronto, Canada, and Rajesh Kumar of the Postgraduate Institute of Medical Research in Chandigarh, India.

They found that there was an increasing tendency to select boys when previous children had been girls.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4592890.stm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

1.1 VEDIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE
The horrible custom of female infanticide was widely practiced by the barbaric Vedic Aryan tribes who invaded India. It is these Vedic nomads who introduced this depravity into India. The Vedas prescribe an intense hatred for women, and female children were considered highly undesirable in the nomadic Aryan patriarchal view. Indeed, so deep-rooted was the desire for male children that the Vedas prescribe numerous prayers for male offspring :

Atharva Veda.6.2.3 : " Let a female child be born somewhere else; here, let a male child be born."
-- [ Ath.Ved.VI.2.3 ] [ cf. Peri ]

These verses were recited whenever an Aryan couple wished to have a child, and display considerable discrimination against women even in the Vedic age. Nor does the `wonderful' treatment of women in Vedic religion end here. The `holy' and `great' Vedas explicitly sanction the practice of female infanticide. Indeed, the real reason for this truly animal practice lies deep in the blood-stained verses of the Vedas. The following verse, from the `sacred' Vedas of the `noble' faith of Hinduism, allows the practice, and takes it for granted as a normal practice in Vedic religion :
Taittirya Samhita VI.5.10.3 : " Hence they [ Aryans ] reject a female child when born, and take up a male."

-- [ Taitt.Samh.VI.5.10.3 ] [ Muir I 26 ]


What `sweet' verses from the Vedas, the holy guide-book for all Hindus ! No wonder women were not allowed to read these heaps of male chauvinist filth ! Indeed, there are several reasons for the practice of female infanticide during the Vedic Dark Age (1500 BC - 500 BC) of the Brahmanic Dark Ages (1500 BC - 1000 AD), all of which can be traced back to Vedic barbarism :
The large dowries prescribed by the Vedas (see later chapters) implied that female children were solely seen as an economic burden. Such was the state of madness inflicted by the Brahmins that a single female marriage, even today, can ruin an ordinary middle-class family. Obliterating female children was thus a convenient way of alleviating financial ruin in the Vedic period.
Women were of little use to the Aryan war-tribes. Hence, their numbers were reduced in order to maintain the high effectiveness of the Aryan war-machine.
These are the `wonderful' truths about the `most spiritual' religion of Hinduism. The inhuman Hindu female infanticide is not due to any `corruption', but is fully sanctioned by the core of Hindu religious scriptures - the Vedas. This is the truth about the `wonderful' religion of Hinduism.
1.2 LATER BRAHMANIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE
The custom of Vedic female infanticide continued during the Sutric (500 BC - 200 AD) and Puranic Dark Ages (200 AD - 1000 AD) of the Brahmanic Dark Ages (1500 BC - 1000 AD). During this era, the Brahmins consolidated the power they had obtained during the Vedic Dark Age to the height of Absolutism. Any custom which could eat away at the foundations of non-Brahmin peoples was utilised by the Brahmins in order to consolidate their tyranny over the subject populations. Infanticide was one such method which helped preserve Brahminist power, and the population was hence brainwashed with the `holy' Vedas, which prescribe this beastly practice. There were several other reasons why the Brahmins cruelly enforced Vedic female infanticide :

The Brahmin race has always feared being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of non-Brahmins. Hence they resorted to the harshest means imaginable to curtail non-Brahmin reproduction. To this extent, the Brahmins divided Indian nations into mutually warring factions by means of casteism, enforced the vile customs of sati, hijrahism, devadasism and above all, spread the poison of female infanticide into the veins of the populace. Female infanticide rotted away at the very roots of the non-Brahmin races, many of which disappeared from the face of the Earth. The Indo-Greeks, Bactrians, Panchalas, Koshalas and Saurasenas are only some of the non-Brahmins races exterminated by the Brahmins using various forms of social degenration which included female infanticide.
The shortage of women led to unending wars amongst non-Brahmins for the remaining women. This is amply demonstrated in Rajasthan, where the Brahmin-enforced female infanticide led to male-female ratios of 10:1. As a result, a never-ending series of wars over women devastated the Scythic Rajputs for several centuries. Sessodia fought Chauhan, Kacchwaha fought Bundela and father fought son in fratricidal warfare which reduced Rajasthan to the desert it now is. Had the Rajputs instead tackled the real cause for all their wars and suffering, namely the Brahmins and the Brahmin-inflicted customs of female infanticde and sati, this suffering would not have occurred.
Thus, the `holy' texts of the Vedas sanction apartheid and mass murder of baby girls. The magnitude of this circumstance is staggering: as long as the Vedas are followed, there shall exist immense hardships for women, and the mass murder of children shall continue since these are all prescribed in these `sacred' texts. Since such passages cannot be deleted in modern times, nor can the Vedas be modified, it hence follows that that all Indian feminists must fight against any and all forms of Vedic religion. Unless they do so, Indian women shall forever remain enslaved to Vedic tyranny.
1.3 POISONING, BURIAL AND SUFFOCATION OF INFANT GIRLS
The manner in which the bigoted Brahmins prescribed death for female infants is especially heart-rending. Often, the parents would be forced to cut up the child and then feed the flesh to animals. Othertimes, the child would be smothered by the midwife. Vivekananda himself refers to a painting showing a Hindu woman throwing her children into the Ganges crocodiles which was widely distributed in the West. The `brave' Rajputs would often have to throw up the baby girl, and chop her up with unsheathed swords as she fell. As a result of Brahmin brain-washing, the Rajputs considered it brave to kill their own female children ! No wonder Sanskrit, the language of the `learned' Brahmanas, has not even a single word for chivalry or virtue !
Nor has it stopped here. The Brahmins have perverted modern technology to develop a new variety of female infanticide, namely female foeticide, which is now spreading rapidly in Brahmin-Occupied India. In Tamil Nadu it is now resorted to, in addition to the time-tested methods of starvation, burial of live children and suffocation [ Tam ]. The latter methods appear natural and thus allow the mother to circumvent the law, whilst the more new-fangled hi-tech methods are technically illegal. These laws on paper are the result of Ambedkar's law-making : the Brahmins opposed any legislation against female infanticide. However, the Brahmins have made sure that these laws are not enforced. This was the experience of Malli, a Tamil woman, describing how her child had been murdered :

" She knew someone may have already inserted a grain into her daughter's mouth, or fed her yerakkam pal [ poison ], or may have drowned her in a bucket of water."
[ Shobha ]
This story clearly shows how the poison of Brahmanism has been at work in Tamil Nadu, spreading the vice of female infanticide which involves the cruellest methods of putting the child to death. Smothering, poisoning and violent means are not eshewed in this quest for Kautilyan dominance over an alien people.
1.4 ANGLO-BRAHMIN ERA & FEMALE INFANTICIDE
The Brahmins have always betrayed India to the foreign inveders, whom they helped in order to maintain their vicious grip on the native populations. One need only remember the Brahmin Kautilya who engineered the Greek invasions of India through his protege Candragupta and the resulting conspiracy with Alexander the Great. The devastating Hun, Parthian, Islamic and Scythic invasions were all engineered by the Brahmins. True to their tradition, these traitors also collaborated with the English to enslave the Indians. The English legalised the fierce persecution of Malayali Moplahs by their Brahmin overlords, which led to the Moplah Rebellion. Similarly , the English Aryans connived with the Brahmin Aryans in the mass murder of millions of female children. Thus, as expected, female infanticide actually spread during British rule, and is still on the increase. This is evident from the following figures, which show a drastic decrease in the number of children during the Anglo-Brahmin colonial era :

Number of females per 1000 males
1901 972
1931 950
1981 934

--- [ Ox.64 ]


In the neo-Brahminist Government of India, the genocide of women continues at full pace. Fully one-tenth of each generation of females is exterminated due to Hindu laws. Indeed, during the first 50 years of Independance, more than 50 million girls have been killed in India [ Verma ].

1.5 NEO-BRAHMANIST FEMALE INFANTICIDE
Following the bloody Aryan conquest of the Sudric nations of South India, the Aryan Brahmins utilised every conceivable means in order to eat away at the very backbone of the Dravidian race. Horrible practices like hijrahism, sati, enforcement of Vedic apartheid, Vedic human sacrifice (purushamedha) and female infanticide were used to oppress the native Dravidoids. The instilling of hatred against women in the masses was the direct result of the enforcement of the Aryan Vaishnava religion upon the Shaiva masses. The genocide of girls was institutionalised by the cunning Brahmins among certain sections of the Tamil population, whence this cancer spread throughout the veins of the Dravidian race. The following quotation refers to the survival of Brahmin-inflicted female infantcide amongst the Kallar clan of Dravidians :

" For a long time in a small hamlet, "Usilampatti", of the Madurai District of Tamil Nadu, India, a tribe called "Kallar" has dominated. "Kallar" means robbers, pirates, marauders, as they were in the past. There was even a Dept. in the local government called The Kallar Reclamation Dept., which was designed to reeducate them, as a backward "class". But their numbers spread in Southern District's of Tamil Nadu. A common feature is the practice of female infanticide. They tolerate a first born female baby, but not a second, because they cannot afford it. Both men and women agree that due to economic deprivation and social conditions, and having to marry girls means giving a dowry and jewels plus incurring the expenses of the marriage feasts, it is impossible to bring up a girl baby. Until girls mature they can be of some help at home or help producing food. However, leaving an unmarried adult woman at home is dangerous, and the work place is also considered unsafe. Therefore they poison the female babies soon after birth with a poison mixed with milk, or a milk-like juice from a shrub - madder juice, and the babies die due to nausea and diarrhoea. If they do not kill them, they may simply abandon the baby at a government hospital after giving a fictional address. "
[ Kurian ]
The origin of these practices can be clearly attributed to Brahminist brain-washing :


" The Kallar were once a proud warrior tribe, but under British rule were relegated to the status of mere thieves and forced to report daily to British officials... There is widespread belief that if a girl is killed then the next baby will be a boy and if two girls are killed consecutively then the next baby will definitely be a boy. Some people name their girls Vendam which means 'unwanted' or Podum meaning enough."
-- [ Kidd ]
These Brahminist practices continue to gnaw at the backbone of the Dravidian people, keeping them weak and internally divided. As per the Modern Rationalist, the practice of infanticide is rapidly spreading in Brahmin-Occupied Tamil Nadu:

" NNMR (deaths occurring within 7 days of a child's birth) have risen from 33.8 % in 1971 to over 39% for the current year. According to Alternate India Development (AID), an NGO, there is strong evidence that female infanticide is one of the reasons for the increasing trend in neonatal deaths. However, instances of infanticide even after six months to one year have been recorded. Indeed, the decreasing IMR does not tell the whole story! "
[ Van ]
The Dravidian movement has thus failed in its objective of liberating the Dravidians from the clutches of Brahmanism. The main reason is that Brahmins survived in other parts of south Asia, allowing them to restore their tyrannic hold over Tamil Nadu once the initial wave of localised anti-Brahmanism had past. This has been the time-tested strategy of the Brahmins, and draws strength from the main advantage the Brahmins possess over the other races of India; namely their thin dispersal over vast regions. The only method of solving the eternal Brahmin problem of South Asia is the simultaneous destruction of Brahmanism all across the region. If the Brahmin curse is not completely extinguished, it shall quietly survive until the danger is past, and then suddenly revive like the plague to re-infest the veins of the peoples of Asia with even deadlier forms of venom.

1.6 PERVERSION OF SCIENCE FOR NEO-BRAHMANIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE
In the modern age, the Brahmins have perverted modern science, and transformed it into another method for the mass murder of non-Brahmin races. This innovation involves the scanning of non-Brahmin foetuses for females, followed by the utlisation of medicine to destroy these female babies. This evil, put to such deadly effect in Tamil Nadu, has been spread by the Brahmins into the lungs of the Sikh people. Thus, Sikhs have started to condemn the spread of this ugly Brahminist practice :

" Most Respected Sri Singh Sahib Jee,
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!
The medical tool of "Ultra Sound," commonly used to determine the gender of the fetus, has brought in a very cruel social evil of Female Infanticide into our culture. The female fetuses are being aborted right after their Ultra Sound detection. Unfortunately this social evil is viewed by those who undergo this procedure as well as by those who perform it, as "Just another medical procedure." [ Takht ]

Needless to say, the doctors performing this operation are mostly Brahmins, while the murdered girls are mostly non-Brahmin Sikhs. This system is merely part of the overall Brahmin strategy of exterminating Sikhs. Similar situations exist all over India where Brahmins destroy non-Brahmin foetuses.

1.7 BRAHMINS KILL 1 MILLION GIRLS ANNUALLY
The true extent of the Brahminist destruction of non-Brahmin races must be objectively quantified in order to be comprehended completely. In 1921 there were more than 97 women for every 100 men in India. Seventy years later, the number had dropped to 92.7 [ Verma ]. These figures, benign at first sight, conceal an ugly truth.
Given that the birth rate of India is 32.0 per 1000 and the total population of India is 835.8 milion [ EB-90.635 ], this implies an annual total of 26.7 million births, out of which 13.4 million would be girls. Given that the present sex ratio is 92/100, which implies that 8/100 girls are killed, this leads to 0.008 x 13.4 million = 1.072 million deaths. That means that 1.1 million girls are killed each year due to the Brahmin-enforced customs of Vedic female infanticide . This is the ugly truth behind the figure of 92 girls for every hundred boys.

Sonali Verma writes about the true extent of damage inflicted by Brahmins on women:

" A recent United Nations report said up to 50 million girls and women were missing from India's population , the result of systematic sex discrimination extending to the abortion of female foetuses."
- [ Verma ]
This annihilation of 50 million children, mostly by violent means after childbirth, has occurred during the last 50 years of India's Independance, and confirms the estimate of 1 million girls murdered by Brahmins each year for the last 50 years. It is to be noted that Hitler, one of the greatest mass murderers of all times, exterminated only 5 million Jews. The Brahmin mass murder of 50 million female children in the 20th century has thus been TEN TIMES more severe than the Jewish Holocaust . And the killing continues.
1.8 200 MILLION GIRLS MURDERED BY BRAHMINS
The cumulative number of deaths due to centuries of Hindu female infanticide is truly staggering. Consider the Brahmanic Dark Ages of 1000 years(1500 BC - 500 BC), and let us adopt the standard population estimate of ancient India, namely 50 million and assume that the same birth rate and same sex ratio existed as today. These are not unreasonable assumptions, given the statements of various travellers that several entire towns in Brahmanic India were destitute of girls. These figures lead to 1.6 million births, or 0.8 million girls born per year of which at least 0.08 million are killed. For 2500 years that yields 2500 years x 0.08 million deaths per year = more than 200 million deaths for the Brahmanic Dark Ages. This means that the Brahmins have murdered 200 million girls during their tyranny over India. By comparison, all other genocides in world history pale into insignificance. The Nazi genocide of Jews was only 5 million, whilst the largest Holocaust ever, that of the Native Americans by Latin and Anglo-Saxons, was only 100 million. This genocide of female infants alone is sufficient to make the Brahmins the greatest mass murderers in human history . It does not include the countless other genocides inflicted by the Brahmins on other peoples, an estimate of which is beyond the scope of this book.

1.9 CHILD-MARRIAGE
Enforced by the Brahmins, this custom destroyed the very life-soul of the non-Brahmins. Child marriage of daughters as young 5-6 y old was common during the Brahmanic Dark Ages due to the custom of dowry [ Nand 17 ] [ Bash.167-8 ] [ Yad 70 ] [ Alt.16 ] [ Ban.70 ]. Lawbooks prescribe that the best partner for a man in one-third his age. Thus a man 18 year old should marry a girl 6 years old! This is the wonderful wisdom of the most authoritative Hindu law-book -
Manu.IX.94 : " A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner."
One of the reasons for such early marriage of girls was to prevent any scandals. Narada states that some of the defects to be avoided in brides are if they already had a relationship with another man or have their minds set on another, they should not be selected [Sheth 67]. This shows that non-virgin girls could not be married, a custom similar to Church-ruled medieval Europe.
The custom of child-marriage and child-molesting has divine sanction in Hinduism. The `great god' Rama was 16 years old when he married Sita, and Sita was only 14 years old [ Ram.wh 69 ]. However, the age of Sita is now known to be a forgery; it is almost certain that she was, as per the Manuid laws, one-third of his age, namely 5 years old. It is inconceivable to imagine that `great' Rama could have dated to violate the Vedic laws of Manu. Besides being a child-molester, `holy' Rama was also guilty of incest, for Sita is referred to in the oldest surviving Ramayanas as his own sister :

" In the Dasarathajataka Sita is represented as the sister as well as the wife of Rama , son of Dasaratha of the Ikshvaku line."
[ Chandra, p.156 ]
Mr. Chandra, who has given the passage cited above, then claims that this incriminating passage was `infiltrated' by the Buddhist nastikas. This objection, however, can be discounted immediately. Firstly, it would not be possible for Buddhists to `distort' a Hindu scripture. Secondly, Chandra himself is a Brahminist, so his statements in defence of Brahmanism can be discounted as being the result of religious fanaticism. The fact is, that the extant Buddhist tales are much older than the Hindu versions, and this episode was deleted from the later falsified Ramayanas. This is confirmed by anthropological research showing that incest was institutionalised in Rama's race, the Ikshvaku dynasty of Aryan Kshatriyas :
" In the Anabattha Sutta and the Mahavastu Avadana we are told that the Ikshvaku princes, who were banished by their father and took shelter on the slopes of the Himalayas, and from whom the Sakyas traced their descent, married their own sisters in order to maintain the purity of their line."
-- [ Chandra, p.155 ]
Hence, it is virtually certain that Sita was Rama's sister, and that it is certain that such an `upright astik Hindu' as he would not have let his sister grow beyond the age limit of 8 years prescribed by Aryan law.

Now, what was the main reason for the Brahmins enforcing child marriage and incest upon the subject populations ? The answer is that these activities led to the permanent genetic degradation of the non-Brahmin races. It is well known that consanginuous marriage leads to genetic mutations in the offspring and eventually ends in the extermination of the blood lineage concerned. Incest and child marriage has a high risk of leading to irreversible hereditary defects in the second generation which are then passed on to succeeding generataions. These were hence convenient methods for the Brahmins to annihilate the non-Brahmins and establish a pure Brahmavarta ! Even to this day one finds the process of genetic deterioration occurring in non-Brahmin children inhabiting Brahmin-ruled regions. These are entirely the result of Brahmin-enforced child-marriage and Brahmin-inflicted incest.

1.10 ENFORCEMENT OF VIRGINITY
As a further instance of the oppressive rules of Hinduism imposed upon women, young girls were required to remain virgin till marriage. Failing this requirement, they would be discarded by the husbands at will :

Manu.IX.72 : " Though (a man) may have accepted a damsel in due form, he may abandon (her if she be) blemished, diseased, or deflowered, and (if she have been) given with fraud."
Such girls were reduced to a pitiable state and were unable to find husbands thereafter. They were mostly forced to live the life of early wretched widowhood. This shows that the systematic discrimination meted out by Hinduism to women extends down to early childhood. Whilst Brahmin men were free to indulge in debauchery with aboriginal Devadasis at an early age, girls had to remain chaste virgins. This is the truth about `wonderful' Hinduism.
These are merely a handful of facts showing that Hinduism is the single most anti-woman civilization in the history of the world. The followers of Hinduism are mindless male supremacist pigs who know nothing better than to burn their own women and rape their own daughters. This they do in the name of the `Holy Vedas', the invention of perverted Brahmin bigots. No other religion imposes such an inhuman genocide of women as does the truly beastly Hinduism.

Source: http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/594-578.aspx
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#76 Posted by premkranti
These are made up stats and have no relevant data to support them.

Here are stats from the CIA world factbook

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2 018.html

India at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.1 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.9 male(s)/female
total population: 1.06 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

Pakistan at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.05 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.88 male(s)/female
total population: 1.04 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

Compare the at birth numbers.

Numbers from Pakistan are comparable to the most countries including many western countries but the Indian numbers are worst in the world.

You can look up at the other countries in your post from the link above.
Libya at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.96 male(s)/female
total population: 1.05 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

Qatar at birth: 1.06 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 2.46 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 1.38 male(s)/female
total population: 2 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

Saudi Arabia at birth: 1.05 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female
15-64 years: 1.29 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 1.06 male(s)/female
total population: 1.18 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

I agree with Shankar bhai. At times we should ignore the importance seekers. Who find more pleasure in hindu muslim rift rather than building a bond of warmth. Who will attack the noblest of idea and will flap their feathers in happiness.I'm happy with the glorious indian past, the muslim indo past and the present where the comradeship among both communities is still alive, and where hearts beat with warmth. The hindus I know are certainly more affecionate, loving and warm. Rather than few names here.

Re: # 81

It will. But Riaz won't reply to this interact.

Re: # 80 nkg

well, there are none... with all the claims of noor and all breastbeating, pakis have nary to show on world stage, in terms of success and achievement in most fields of human excellence...

Re: # 76

Uh-oh - that will put a serious burn up Riaz's backside... LOL

Re: # 74
riaz haq...
with all these problems, India is able to produce Padmashree Warrior, Indira Nooyi, Kalpana Chawla, Saina Nehwal,Dr. Vandana Shiva...
Can you show similar example from muslim nations?

Re: # 68
Carbon...
"and many other absurd beliefs.islam gave India a strong hold..."
What is that string hold...
Social indiscipline...
Pre musla period, Indians devised laws to be abide by during the wars...
Muslas introduced pillage of civilian installation, rape of women by armed forces, destroying of universities, burning libraries....That was the strong hold!!!!...and the effcet of the strong hold is that, these areas, for last 800/900 years, failed to produce something notable in any field, which they used to do regularly for past 1000 years!!!

Re: # 70
carbon...
Did Bahadur Shah etc. had any other place to go? Everyone was fighting for their own interest...Post Guptas, the concept of India (16 MahaJanapadas) got screwed up and so, so many invaders were able to successfully attack India....
Mighty Alexander was stopped by Nandas...

Brits helped Indians create that back again....

Re: # 68
carbon...
I have given enough examples...All these achievements were through caste system only...Can you show similar achivements under muslim rule?
I am sure, will not find equivalents of Aryabhatta, Somdev Bhatta, Kalidasa, Valmiki etc...post moslem period.....
Aryans were not invaders....This is Paki version of history...They were migrants and they were absorbed into Indian culture...So, were Huns and others...
Muslaism/Islam is pure barbarism and 90% of it is alien to Indian or local culture...India never thrived under moslem rule; at least in its core field of education, astronomy, mathematics and literature...When musla rule was nearing end, India was almost in dilapilated state and so, many of Indian intellectuals supported Brits to regain its lost areas of expertise, specialy education and literature...

Have you heard of someone called Megasthenes ( Indica) or Huen Tsang?...Please read their description about India and Indian cities like Patliutra or Kashi and Universities like Nalanda...That will enlighten you...India was not exposed to Europe at that time; but in eastern front it influenced a lot in formation of culture specialy China, Japan, Thailand etc...and they are ahead of any moslem countries in Human develeopment....If that does not help you to conclude, then I will resign here....
Iran , Pakistan and Afghanisthan had far more glorious pre-musla past than post moslem one...And you know the current state of these countries....

#75 Dear bundle of hate and hindu-slayer,
Here are top 10 countries with worst female-male ratios.
Pos Country Male Female Number of Males per Female
1 United Arab Emirates 3,063,000 1,433,000 2.14
2 Qatar 547,000 265,000 2.06
3 Kuwait 1,612,000 1,075,000 1.50
4 Bahrain 414,000 313,000 1.32
5 Oman 1,443,000 1,124,000 1.28
6 Saudi Arabia 13,259,000 11,314,000 1.17
7 Jordan 2,964,000 2,739,000 1.08
8 Timor-Leste 492,000 455,000 1.08
9 Libya 3,020,000 2,834,000 1.07
10 Afghanistan 15,404,000 14,459,000 1.07

Data from http://www.socyberty.com/Issues/The-imbalance-of-the-male-to-female-ratio.8138
Pray tell me - how many of these are Moslem countries.

Having said that Female infanticide is a big issue and blot in India. The major reason for this is the bride/cost associated with bringing a poor child at home. This is common across all the communities - Hindu, moslem included. Christians do better. Pakistan also is not that better.

Dont do your pathetic attempt to relate it with one religion. please grow up...

In India's southern state of Tamil Nadu, female infanticide is so frequent that all second daughters are known as 'the girl born for the burial pit'.

Desperately poor families routinely kill girl babies after birth for fear they can't afford to raise them or provide the extortionate dowry required by a groom's family. Pavati's husband killed her second daughter the day she was born. She went home to her father's house and didn't eat for a month following the death but with two other children she had to return to her tiny hut and carry on. Another baby, Hymera was luckier, brought to a safe house by her uncle despite fierce opposition from his neighbours. Now she is cared for by people who value her life. Teenage girls sit in a circle in a coconut grove discussing the strengths they will need as India's next generation of mothers. A report on the attempts of agencies, such as the Indian Council for Child Welfare, to stop infanticide through re-education, training of women and providing homes for unwanted girl babies. So far prosecuting local mothers for murder has done little more than punish the saddest victims of a social tragedy.

Produced by ABC Australia
Distributed by Journeyman Pictures

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnmtKLQRh6g
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Female fetus abortions and female infanticides in India is nothing but Jahiliya.

According to a recent report by the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) up to 50 million girls and women are missing from India' s population as a result of systematic gender discrimination in India. In most countries in the world, there are approximately 105 female births for every 100 males.

In India, there are less than 93 women for every 100 men in the population. The accepted reason for such a disparity is the practice of female infanticide in India, prompted by the existence of a dowry system which requires the family to pay out a great deal of money when a female child is married. For a poor family, the birth of a girl child can signal the beginning of financial ruin and extreme hardship.

However this anti-female bias is by no means limited to poor families. Much of the discrimination is to do with cultural beliefs and social norms. These norms themselves must be challenged if this practice is to stop.

Diagnostic teams with ultrasound scanners which detect the sex of a child advertise with catchlines such as spend 600 rupees now and save 50,000 rupees later.

The implication is that by avoiding a girl, a family will avoid paying a large dowry on the marriage of her daughter. According to UNICEF, the problem is getting worse as scientific methods of detecting the sex of a baby and of performing abortions are improving.

These methods are becoming increasing available in rural areas of India, fuelling fears that the trend towards the abortion of female foetuses is on the increase.

http://www.indianchild.com/abortion_infanticide_foeticide_india.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Carbon mian,
#70

WELL SAID.
I ignore these RSS supporters. They are our hindu taliban.

Re: # 57
Kudos to you! Good response!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 51
In India, you have mastered the deceptive art of using an exception to prove a rule. Khadija was as much an exception as a business woman in pre-Islamic Jahil Arabia as the token Muslims like Abul Kalam in India today.

The rampant female infanticide and female fetus abortions practiced in India today are all reminiscent of the pre-Islamic Jahiliya. The talk of burqa is nothing but a red herring in this discussion about the right to life for females in India and pre-Islamic Arabia.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Laddu Sir, bahadurshah zafar was exiled cause he decided to fight for india, so did tipu sultan , rani laxmi bai and many others who sacrificed themselves for the home land. Marathas, rajpoots, nizam, and many others joined hands with british and flourished. it was fight for home land where hindu muslims together hand in hand fought. Thank mughals that they managed to stop brits, french or portugese for so long. During mughals the wealth of india stayed within and now you have Taj Mahal to boast of with your firangi friends.and if the indian muslims chose to stay in india post partition its only the love of mother country, its people and culture. Even the aryans were not original indians but took india by force from dravadians. should all the brahmins be blamed for the thousands years of tryanny over native indians. Whom the great books refers to as " rakshas".

Re: # 62

BS,

this is Islami Paki historiography speaking. Even moghuls were never able to rule despite their cruelity, murders, rapes and slavery of the hindus. The attacks by Nadir Shah and countless other infightings are well recorded. hindus gave a stiff resistence through Sikhs , Marathas and others who screwed the hell out of momeen supremacists.

It just took a few gora companies to demolish the muslim supremacists in India- and all hindus gave a helping hand to them.

We ar all grateful to goras to liberate us from dhimmitude of cruel muslim fantatic rulers!!

Sir, I do respect Chanakya and many other great indian thinkers, these were men who believed in bringing change into the cultural sphere of indian thinking but were bogged down by the caste system and many other absurd beliefs.islam gave India a strong hold. Hindus no doubt have been peace loving and absorbing people. Then what is wrong with you guys that any reference of Islam gives you hyper attacks. And you run to criticise it. Do you really think looking at the history of Islam that its gonna stop spreading. I acknowledge it again that any violence is not accepted unless one wants to defends himself/family. Indian muslims are very proud to be indians, and will do anything for india. But stop telling indian muslims that they do not belong to india, and that they all should go back to pak. What intellectual faculty inspires such suggestions. Instead of blaming muslims you should look at the grass root problem of caste system and other social factors which is hindering the internal growth.islam is flourishing

#62 Carbon
"You see before Islam afghanishan, pakistan, bangladesh all were hindus or buddhist, now 3 nations are Muslims, plus additional muslims in india. What are u guys gonna do now. Bomb us all.accept the fact that Islam is here to stay, for a long long time."

It is easy to be muslim. Recite Kalima and take a licence to do whatever you'll be not allowed to do otherwise. So conversion was always a good temptataion. Only frustrated hoi-polloi, short of any cultural and philosophical support, converts to islam today.

Now I really do not care or want to do anything about Pakistan and Bangladesh muslims as long as they do what they want in their country and not come disturb my life.

But I do want Indian muslims, who influence my daily life- all muslims, as more than 90% have already understood that religious beliefs should not spill in the street and hinder others lives. Like it or not, Indian muslim is not part of this 'us' in ' Bomb us all'. And specially last thing Indians think of is to bomb anyone, even a Pakistani muslim like Kasab. It is not Kasab's life which is important but the value system which should respect every individual's liberty. You may say that this is not in many cases but we're constantly learning and correcting course. There is no Quran or Shariyat needed for that. There are less and less instances of violations from a mass of 1 billion+ heterogeneous people of all faiths and beliefs.

In other words, an Indian muslim is getting back into Hindu culture which was always inclusive and respectful of all kinds of thought processes. We have also learnt about our lesson. If any gold is hoarded in any temple, sooner or later, it is questioned and will be put to better usage. Instead of only progressing on arts, science and culture only, Hindu (call it Indian now) cultur has learnt to beware of the neighbours. Everytime descendents of Gazanavi tried to repeat and loot, they got the boot.

See, we have learnt without Quran/ Gita/ Bible teaching us so.

Re: # 34
Khyber...
Islam was associated with politics from the time of Muhammed...This is nothing new and Pakistan is not deviating from Islam...In Islamic scale, you people maturing and is now able to shed, whetever was left with Sindhi, Punjabi...culture with you guys...Mo himself was engaged in wars, looting of wealth, administative works etc...which is not typical of a philosophical leader....
And Jinnah should have been happy to see the Islamic Khalifat of Pakistan....

Carbon...
I can not say about India...It is too vast and history is so ancient, you can not judge India by petty concepts like Islam...

But Islam has definitely given Pakistan an identity, for which, your friends and bothers are strip searched in every airport,if that name starts with your prophet and some other whos who of Islam....I am sure, your brothers and friends would not have attracted so much attension from security persons, if they would have stuck to their Punjabi/Sindi/Gandhari identity....

carbon...
Another clue...

A famous person, who written one of the earliest books on Economics and Political science in Taxila named Kautila...
Peole from central asia, China, rest of India used to come to learn from him...

A person named Panini invented the rules to organize a language (grammar)...He was from Taxila...

Islam arrived...couple of centuries passed...

Now, NATO drones bombs that region for something else and that region is now famous for something and someone else....

That something is GWOT and whos who of that regions are not definitely like Panini or Kautilya....

Re: # 62
Carbon...
Alexander was stopped by Indians...India was centre for leaning for almost 800 years until moslems arrived...
India's jewel in the crown was its universities like Taxila and Nalanda and host of other universities in Kashi, Ujjain and Mathura....During that period, India was famous for painting and sculptures, which used to spread even to Afghanisthan...
So, who do you believe crafted these beautiful statues of Bamian and who do you believe responsible for destriction of it?
And why, the site, most famous for university of yesteryear is now epicente of terrorism?

Islam indeed given current day Pakistan an identity; and you know that identity....

Sir the arrival of Islam was a blessing to India, the hindu rulers of india historically talking were unable to defend their states long before there were greeks and later the persians (pre islam) almost owned India. The muslim rulers gave India a better identity than just the gold horders and carvers of erotic figurines. The mongol and tatari attacks were repelled my muslim rulers. muslims actually taught Indians the better admnistration to invest into the infrastructure not just hoard gold at lord Somnath temple, which was taken for economic developement by Mahmoud Gaznav. You see before Islam afghanishan, pakistan, bangladesh all were hindus or buddhist, now 3 nations are Muslims, plus additional muslims in india. What are u guys gonna do now. Bomb us all.accept the fact that Islam is here to stay, for a long long time.

Re: # 57
bull...
China started from one of the most disadvantaged position and wheteve they have achieved in last 50/60 years, overcoming problem; that is enough....

Israel is homeland for Jews, but not a theocratic state like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia....
Rabbis are just fo religious purpose and don't interfere in any other sphere of life...

Re: # 35
Riaz...
Nobody is against moslems practising Haz and other stupid stuff...But when you guys bring the jewel of the Islamic crown, Jihad, out of your closet, people are bound to react...

Re: # 33
Khyber...
Nobody is focing dictators on moslem countries; specialy those, who are closer to the place of origin of Islam...
That says all about what sort Islam, Mo practised and preached....This so called "enlightened" period was collection of Indian and Persian contributions, which started declining after arrival of Islam and now you know the state of these countries ( Iran and Pakistan, in specific)....It is like the joke, " I am now a millionare, after marriage...what were you before marriage? A Billionaie"...
Mo, never spared an oppotunity to use arms to settle scores with others...not one or two; he was engaged in moe than 10 wars....and he might be right, as he was most successful gangleader of his time and created biggest gangs of arab tribes....Islam was one of the motivation behind this success and even invastion of Persia....
Now, if you want to invent something called peaceful Islam, that will be like geneticaly modified sweet bittergaurd....But good initiative,indeed...Keep this up sir.....

Cheema Sahab....I really hope what you say is correct. But how do you adress the fact that every muslim is crazy about palestine being created. how is the creation of palestine going to help muslims in pakistan and indonesia. i can understand egypt and jordan being excited about palestine being created as they are situated right in the heart of the conflict, but i fail to understand the excitement in pakistan and malaysia over palestine.

similarly i do not understand how come turmoil in chechenya, iraq and bosnia is going to affect the lives of ordainary muslims in africa?

every muslim seems to be getting excited about a conflict that is happening thousands of miles from his home and the resolution of which is not going to improve or worsen his life one bit.

how many times have we here in chowk seen pakistani muslims lament about the atrocities on palestinans. if atrocities on palestianians stop, are the lives of the pakistani muslims going to improve???

fuzair #: "Why don't these people realize that the West did not make real economic, military and scientific progress until it abandoned religion? Look at Spain, Portugal and Italy:"

...i am not sure if this is a correct and factual gauge, on which an argument can be made.....there are various other events that occurred in the western civilization, which led to its progress.......simply basing it on, "leaving" religion is too simplistic......

......overwhelmingly, the most dominant and advanced western nation is the usa.....it is also the most religious western nation......it should, as per your theory, be the least advanced western nation....

....israel is, probably, the most religio-centric country in the world...to the point of being an aparheid state......everything centers around religion......yet it is one of the most advanced countries in the world, despite many limitations....

.....similarly, there are athiest nations in the world also....or at the very least, nations whose majority don't follow a particular faith.....china would be a good example.....to some extent russia......

......china should have been, by far, the most advanced nation in the world.....since, religion, in no way, interferes with the running of its govt......

......similarly, i don't know of any country that enforces secularism as strongly as turkey......it is, literally, done at the barrell of a gun.......it should be way ahead of the usa...

i think it is the establishment of certain social structures, which leads to progress.....one needs to look at religion within that context......

Re: # 55

[[the day you muslims get this dream of your pan islamic identity and cause out of your heads, you will find your situation improving.]]

this 'panislamism' only exists in the minds of some of my compatriots ... not widespread (thank you allah mian!) in the islamic world in general, and arabic world in particular ... most arabs look upon this phenomenon with some sense of amazement!

the biggest problem of all you muslims is that you all consider your selves as muslims first and then citizens of your respective countries. This is the root cause of your problems because for your so called 'causes' of islam, you all would be happy to destroy your own countries and lives. just take a look at what you people are doing to pakistan, afghanistan, somalia, sudan etc.

there are more christians on this planet than muslims, but i have not come across a single christian who calls himself christian first and then a citizen of his country. its always country first and then religion.

the day you muslims get this dream of your pan islamic identity and cause out of your heads, you will find your situation improving.

and riaz, before you start off, let me tell you that we hindus do not deny our problems and are very well aware of what is wrong in our religion. unlike muslims, at least we hindus acknowledge our problems and are trying to solve them rather burying our heads in sand and pretending nothing is wrong.

Rgds

DK.

Re: # 38; riaz

lol!! ... why don't you go all the way and call me a "yahoodi agent" in the first place!

now carry on redflagging my posts to your heart's content ... good to have some way of venting one's 'impotent rage'!

Re: # 8 Canine
"World houses more illiterates than university grads....Does that make University grads inferior?"


Graduates are not Superior EITHER just b/c others are not

#49 RiazHaq
"Such a hierarchical, non-egalitarian society is like the pre-Islamic Arab system of Jahiliya that makes it inherently less developed and less productive than other societies based on values of mutual respect and equality."

Do you mean to say that Islam changed the Indian, Arabic and ofcourse everywhere it went in a more egalitarian and mutually respectful society? Does your statement not fly in the face of this article or french president's argument of burqa as human indignity. Do you mean that nikab, slaves, killing of kafirs are a sign of an egalitarian society?

#49 by RiazHaq

Such a hierarchical, non-egalitarian society is like the pre-Islamic Arab system of Jahiliya that makes it inherently less developed and less productive than other societies based on values of mutual respect and equality.

Riaz mian, if your scholarship were based more on common sense than rote learning, you would realize that the "pre-Islamic Arab Jahiliya" was far more advanced than anything Islam brought. If pre-Islamic Arabia was Jahil, please explain how come one of the Prophet's wife was a very successful businesswoman? How do you explain post-Islam, Arab (and most Muslim) women have been made to wear Burqas and completely subjugated? And why has none of you "more-Arab-than-Arab" pious Muslims raised even squeak about it?

Qureshi Sahib:

"Parde Mein Rehne Do Parda Na Uthao
Parda Jo Uth Gaya To Bhedh Khul Jayega
Allah Meri Tauba - Allah Meri Tauba

Mere Parde Mein Lakhon Jalwe Hain,
Kaise Mujhse Nazar Milaoge
Jab Zara Bhi Naquab Uthaungi
Yaad Rakhna Ke Jal Hi Jaoge
Parde Mein Rehne Do ......

Husn Jab Benaqab Hota Hai
Woh Sama Lajawab Hota Hai
Khud Ko Khudki Khabar Nahin Rehati-
Hoshwalla Bhi Hosh Khota Hai
Parde Mein Rehne Do......

Haay Jisne Mujhe Banaaya Hai
Woh Bhi Mujhko Samajh Na Paya Hai
Mujhko Sajde Kiye Hain Insaan Ne
In Farishton Ne Sar Jhukaya
Parde Mein Rehne Do .....
"

Re: # 47
The cause of Hindu backwardness lies in your own society which is based on a culture and caste system that encourages female infanticide and legitimizes oppression of one group of people by another.

Such a hierarchical, non-egalitarian society is like the pre-Islamic Arab system of Jahiliya that makes it inherently less developed and less productive than other societies based on values of mutual respect and equality.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Prophet Muhammad: Most Influential Person In History


The Quran
We make no distinction among any of the Prophets. -- 2:135
Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History
My choice of Muhammad to lead the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular levels. . .
. . . it may initially seem strange that Muhammad has been ranked higher than Jesus. There are two principal reasons for that decision. First, Muhammad played a far more important role to the development of Islam than Jesus did in the development of Christianity. Although Jesus was responsible for the main ethical and moral precepts of Christianity (insofar as these differed from Judaism), St. Paul was the main developer of Christian theology, its principal proselytizer, and the author of a large portion of the New Testament.

Muhammad, however, was responsible for both the theology of Islam and its main ethical and moral principles. In addition he played a key role in proselytizing the new faith, and in establishing the religious practices of Islam. Moreover, he is the author of the Moslem holy scriptures, the Koran. [The Quran, Muslims believe, is the revealed Word of God.]

Furthermore, Muhammad (unlike Jesus) was a secular leader as well as a religious leader. In fact as the driving force behind the Arab conquests, he may well rank as the most influential political leader of all time. . . [When Muhammad died in 632, he was the effective leader of all of southern Arabia. By 711, Arab armies had swept completely across North Africa to the Atlantic Ocean. In a scant century of fighting, the Bedouin tribesmen, inspired by the word of the Prophet, had carved out an empire stretching from the borders of India to the Atlantic Ocean -- the largest empire that the world had yet seen.]

. . the Arab conquests of the seventh century have continued to play an important role in human history, down to the present day. It is this unparalleled combination of secular and religious influence which I feel entitles Muhammad to be considered the most influential single figure in human history.

Alphonse de Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie
Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman: to subvert superstitions which had been interposed between man and his creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design no other instrument than himself, and no other aid, except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia, Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean, Spain, and a part of Gaul.
If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the true criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and the souls.

On the basis of a Book, every letter of which has become law, he created a spiritual nationality which blended together peoples of every tongue and of every race. He has left us as the indelible characteristic of this Muslim nationality the hatred of false gods and the passion for the One and Immaterial God. This avenging patriotism against the profanation of Heaven formed the virtue of the followers of Muhammad; the conquest of one-third of the earth to his dogma was his miracle; or rather it was not the miracle of a man but that of reason.

The idea of the Unity of God, proclaimed amidst the exhaustion of fabulous theogonies, was in itself such a miracle that upon its utterance from his lips it destroyed all the ancient temples of idols and set on fire one-third of the world. His life, his meditations, his heroic revilings against the superstitions of his country, and his boldness in defying the furies of idolatry, his firmness in enduring them for fifteen years at Mecca, his acceptance of the role of public scorn and almost of being a victim of his fellow countrymen: all these and, finally, his flight, his incessant preaching, his wars against odds, his faith in his success and his superhuman security in misfortune, his forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death: all these attest not to an imposture but to affirm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unity of God and the immateriality of God: the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with the words.

Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he? -- Paris 1854, Vol. II, pp. 276- 277

#20 Tahmed
Hindus were well ahead of arabic bedouins in wealth and cultur but not in war mongering. This is why islam did not invade africa but sacked architecture, literature, and looted India.

If Hindus (not 'hindu'religion wallahs but hindu or indian cultur) are backward today, it is precisely because islam made them so. Hopefully we're coming back as it was always the case whenever peaceful times lasted.

#36,#37 Cheema, #39 ferozk

I do not think Riaz haq really reads the posts adressed to him. Let alone getting engaged in any dialogue. Turning the table by going tangent on one word and pull out some scholarly text which has nothing to do with ongoing subject seems to be his speciality.

Don't be disheartened. Others are reading and appreciating your remarks, even though some like me do not break in applause. Riaz haq only represents jihadi mentality of jang and still more jang until shahatad. In any rational discussion, he is concerned of losing his self inflicted status of pakistani (or jihadi) alumnus.

i am at a loss to figure out the thrust of this article. the author starts out by declaring himself to be a "skeptical" muslim; then immediately proceeds to spell out a list of fairly orthodox islamic beliefs which he claims to hold.

how the rest of the article fits in with this preamble is anybody's guess.

if the purpose of his pontification is to plead for socio-political overhaul of the muslim socities, or to make a case for a theological reformation in islam, i fail to see what his personal convictions or apprehensions therein have anything to do with these objectives? perhaps he can elaborate.

alterntively, as best as i can make out, he wants to say that he would like to be a believing muslim but, unfortunately, the state of socio-economic stagnation in the muslim lands, and the rigidity of the practices of the adherents of the islamic faith mitigate against it. so, now, will everyone please fall in line as per his (and presumably many others') prescriptions so he can continue to belive in islam and live happily ever after.

which begs the questions what if this (take it or leave it) prescription isn't followed - and most likely it won't be followed in a short timeframe - anyways? what then? sadly he doesn't tell us, though many examples exist of muslims having bolted the ranks of the faithful for any number of lesser reasons.

the author should take heart from the fact that the beauty of islam is that one can continue to be a muslim after having successfully abandoning it. to wit, we have (quite apart from the usual rainbow of hyphenated muslims due to the fiqhi/sectarian riff raff) secular muslims, humanist muslims, cultural muslims (thanks cheema sb), etc. the last variety could be just as easily (and legitimately) be classified as atheist-muslims. so i fail to see why we can't have hindu/christian/jewish/buddhist/communist/new age muslims as well.

thus, if my apprehension of the author's predicament is correct, then might i be so politically incorrect to (as well) suggest that his dilemma is mostly of his own making.
i mean wtf?

"tu hi naadaan chand kaliyon par qina'at kar gaya
varna gulshan mein ilaaj-e tangi'ye daamaan bhi hae"

nor is there any reason to despair should the choices on offer be not quite to the author's liking. there is remedy for that as well:

"kaifiyat baaqi puraanay koh-o sehra mein nahin
hae junoon tayra naya, paedaa naya veerana kar"

sky is the limit. come up with ur own concoction. call it "choon choon ka murabba" islam, or better still, "skeptical" islam.

and live happily ever after ...

Why??? Is HE sadistic that HE does it without reason. HE HIMSELF take away the heart of the chief of the people on earth then WHY keep on abusing America and Bush or Zardari etc? Why not abuse the ONE who is responsible.

"ALLAH's LAW of RISE & FALL OF NATIONS

He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way. . They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Job 12:23 & Isiah 40:15"

Only Choooras of the world will rule. Only those countries are sucessful where Chooora civilization exist. Muslims are a confused lot. Choooras have a mission. I also studied in a Missionary school. Madrassas should be also coverted to Missionary schools with American aid. This way they will produce students with A grades who can easily get admissions in US, UK and Australia. All Chooora lands of milk and honey.

In this global, integrated world where every person is instantly connected and influenced by each others' thoughts, actions and reactions, only those 'religions' are going to survive that are highly tolerant, adaptable to constant change and are willing to learn new things from others. Those who are not, will be relegated to the dustbin of history. Their number might be in millions or billions, the other remaining billions will make sure that the world culture keeps moving in the right direction no matter what the cost is.

Re: # 39
ferozk,
The first major defeats of Byzantines were inflicted during Muawiya's time in the early part of the 7th century when the Muslim forces took the Levant (that included Syria) that was part of the Byzantine empire. And, in the early days, the Muslims allowed Byzantine bureaucrats, even the Byzantine currency, to continue to be in place. These Muslims were smart enough to know what they did not know. So they learned the art of administering a large empire from the Byzantines. They had no qualms about learning from the "infidels".

Then they expanded to take most of the Mediterranean with the exception of Constantinople with which they had trade and diplomatic relations and lots of knowledge exchange even when the power center moved from Ommayyiads (Damascus) to Abbasis (Baghdadad). The Muslims learned Greek from the Byzantines to translate a lot of the Greek knowledge into Arabic that preserved and extended knowledge for all of humanity.

As you say, the Ottomans finally took Constantinople from the weakened Byzantines in 1453. IT was a largely symbolic act, because at that time, there was not much of the Byzantine empire left.

I suggest you read "Sailing From Byzantium" by Colin Wells to get more deeply into this part of history.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Actually Riaz-ul-haq in all probability represents the "JehadiAlumni Worldwide".

He is soon to convert the Halaal Business into a "world wide" commercial enterprise like the current Islamists and Jehadis are trying to do.

Re: RiazHaq# 35

You wrote "Muslims distinguished themselves by reconciling faith and reason, something the Byzantines before them failed to do when their empire was defeated and supplanted by an Islamic empire beginning in the 7th century".

The Byzantine Empire was defeated by the Muslims (Ottomans) in 1453. Last time I checked, 1453 was not the Seventh Century! Byzantine Empire did not fall due to a failure to reconcile faith and reason; it's collapse was more due to issues of taxation and a decline of goverance.

On a parenthetical note, why must Islam and Muslims be time-locked in the 7th century? Why can't the Muslim thought not realize that the 7th century was 14 centuries ago and it is time to move into the 21st century. :)

ciao

Re: # 36
cheema,
I am afraid you lack the learning or the capacity to engage in this serious discussion. All you are repeating are your own deeply held personal prejudices based on your "Pakistani liberal" orthodoxy that is completely devoid of reason.

This is my last post addressed to you on this subject.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 35

[[As Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. " ]]

the 'religion' einstein was referring to goes far beyond the confines of 'religion' as we know it! ... stop misqouting einstein please ... incidentally, he also stated the following:

[[A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. (Albert Einstein)

I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. (Albert Einstein, 1954)

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)]]

Re: # 35

I wouldn't expect anything else from you so there!

there has NEVER been a widely acceptable notion of 'reconciling faith and reason' EVER within the muslim world since the inception of this plagiarised mythology ... those who attempted to do so did when they stumbled upon ancient knowledge (mostly Greek) and saw that it was better than what they had ... hence they attempted to incorporate it into their way of thinking much the same way as many adherents today claim everything to be already written down in the Quran (and its our lack of insight that prevents us from seeing it!).

those who attempted to 'cross boundaries' were often labelled as heretics by the then establishment, and to take credit from them for Islam is a retarded logic

I requested you nicely before to drop the charade of 'pak alumniworldwide' .... you donot represent me therefore don't take credit for what I may want to contribute ... may well be to your own advantage!

Re: # 27
Most people, particularly Muslims, are deeply religious. So in my humble opinion, it is a fool's errand to try and get Muslims to abandon their faith in Islam and accept secular humanism( modernity based on secular western democracy and unrestrained free markets) in its place as their new orthodoxy.

At the pinnacle of their success, Muslims distinguished themselves by reconciling faith and reason, something the Byzantines before them failed to do when their empire was defeated and supplanted by an Islamic empire beginning in the 7th century. And Muslims repeated the same mistake as the Byzantines when they abandoned Ijtihad, became too rigid and failed to reconcile themselves with the changing world realities in the 15th century onwards. They did not understand the power and the impact of the Renaissance followed by an all-sweeping industrial revolution that led to them being colonized by the West.

So the recipe for repeat success for Muslims lies in their ability to exercise their faith without abandoning science reason. They must use Ijtihad to deal with the changing realities.

It is possible, even necessary, to engage in science based on values that come from faith. As Einstein said, "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind. "


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Another big problem in Pakistan is dangerous mixing of religion and politics,thats where all the problem of relegious fanaticism started,if people were educated they would remove government.It's especially dangerous when it involves the voters, some of whom are easily swayed by emotion.

http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Most of the Muslim countries are run by dictators. To keep their grip on power they force the country in the direction which may be helpful to them,they use ISLAM as their weapon and then they hire religious mullhas and politicians to keep their citizens less educated.If the Muslim countries have independent institutions, democracy and freedom,and they spread modern education aggressively,we will not see religious fanaticism . The Muslim countries of the world are at the bottom of the list when it comes to education and development. Many people have tried to blame the west for the backward Muslim attitude. However, this problem is not an external problem, but an internal one. There are other countries in the world, which are poorer than some Muslim countries, but when it comes to education they are far ahead of Muslim nations. Power hungry dictators of Muslim and Arab countries ignore education and impose their version of Islam on their citizens,so they can remain in power.

http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

The great civilizational churn with in Islamic world has started. The vested interests of local corrupt elite and global colonialism have been challenged. Enemies of Islam are spending billions of dollars to keep the Muslim psyche stagnant, as it has been for the past 100 years. The only constant in the world is change. Trust Allah and do the right thing:

ALLAH's LAW of RISE & FALL OF NATIONS

He increaseth the nations, and destroyeth them: he enlargeth the nations, and straiteneth them again.He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth, and causeth them to wander in a wilderness where there is no way. . They grope in the dark without light, and he maketh them to stagger like a drunken man.

Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Job 12:23 & Isiah 40:15

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Saeed Qureshi Sahib,

You suggest {....with an enlightened Islamic legal system.}

How can this be? For an enlightened legal system, you must be able to drop the all-encompassing word "Islamic" from the defining goal. Their can be no enlightenment within any religious structure.

Re: #5
".....there is little difference between them and a flock of sheep or a herd of cattle!"

Sheep don't know how to repress doubt.

Don't look now but in 1926 Mustafa Kemal overhauled "religous law" so much that he killed it in Turkey.

What the author is actually referring to is the Mejallah al Ahkam al Adliya which was promulgated in 1877 and formed the basis of Turkish civil law until 1926. It was the attempt to rationalize (along Western lines) Hanafi fiqh into something that actually made sense and was usable, instead of being the sole preserve of scholastic inquiry by learned ulema.

As for the rest of this article, another waste of bandwith. Why don't these people realize that the West did not make real economic, military and scientific progress until it abandoned religion? Look at Spain, Portugal and Italy: as long as the Catholic Church was supreme, these places were the backwaters of Europe; at least they are closing the gap now!

Re: # 25..U R NOT DOING ANYTHING MAJOR ON UR SITE THAT U NEED DONATIONS,U R JUST A CORRUPT PERSON AND STEALING MONEY FROM PEOPLE,U R A THIEF.

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A good article Saeed though i personally think that the rationale for a secular state is not due to "conflict" or sectarian violence. Rather its due to the use of religon as a tool of oppression by State as well as non State actors and the inability of the Muslims to reinterpret religon's core message in modern times and in a way which harmonizes the religous message with modernity.

#19 Riaz Sahib: enough of this "muslim glory". every dog has his day - so what if muslims had theirs. the fact is that today the muslim world is the most backward on earth (except for the hindus - but at least the latter did not need Sir Syed to tell them that hinduism had nothing to offer them in the modern world, and so sought "western education" and adopted "western political systems" - the latter being something even an "enlightened moderate" like you are incapable of grasping and still view democracy and the rule of law with as much suspicion as mullah omar.

Saeed,
I think you are confused between religious teachings and human failings, and you seem to suggest that continued Muslims' failings in recent history (about 400 years) are possible only because of deficiencies in Islam.

While not fully comprehending how a rag-tag band of people rose from the Arabian desert and achieved rapid and wild success because of Muhammad's revolutionary message in the 7th century, you are also unable to grasp the basic cycles of rise and fall that affect all people. No nation or empire has been able to sustain itself at its pinnacle more than a thousand years.

Whenever any people/empires have achieved great success, their own complacency has helped bring them down. Muslim nations started having the problems in the 16th century when Spain fell to the Catholics in 1492, America was discovered and Europeans began the process of colonization followed by industrialization.

You should read Bertrand Russel who often talked about Reawakening of the East. The East includes Muslims as much as other Asian nations. Some East Asian Muslims (Malaysia and Indonesia) have already begun to demonstrate this.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Violence-

1. Fear of Allah.
2. Terror of Jahannum.
3. Scare of Shaitan.
4. Terror of Qayamat.
5. Blood of Kafirs.
6. Blood of Munafiqoons.
7. Self inflicted violence of Fidayeen and mujahideen Kutte.

Take all these away- would Islam still survive???

its too long.

Take away violence from Islam-

Is there anything that remains to hold it??

Think!!!

Re: # 9
carbon...
Much before creation of Taliban, Islam as religion, was engaged in bloody wars with non moslems....There is no difference between the jihad, Muhammed fought or preached and these Talibs are fighting...Motivation is same, mentality is same, only the weapons are different....You are enlightened; so, you are dragging islam to different level of civilization....

Re: # 6tahmed32...well siad....in Pakistan Islam has been hijacked by power hungry, hypocrites and extremely selfish political Mullahs.

http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Durust .....

"The Family Feud (Mid 400 to 610)

The Arab historian, Ibn al-Athir, (d.1210, p. 193) traced the origin of the rivalry in Islam to family feuds and jealousies long before the inception of Islam. He reported that when the great-grandfather of the Prophet Mohamed, Abd Manaf (mid 400), died, his son Hashim rather than Abd Shams assumed the responsibilities of hospitality (a cherished value and a source of prestige) and of providing water to pilgrimages to Mecca in Arabia (for a brief outline of the most important figures in the evolved conflict, see Figure 1). Abd Shams’s son, Umayya (the father of the Umayyad dynasty), sought to project himself as generous as his uncle but could not deliver and could not uphold his reputation among the elite of Mecca. This further infuriated him and subsequently he challenged his uncle to a duel. The elite of Mecca set conditions for the duel: in the event of a defeat, Umayya had to provide 50 camels for a feast and had to go into exile for ten years in al-Sham (Syria). This first incident deeply embittered the Umayyad dynasty. In fact, after the revelation of Islam to the Prophet Mohamed in 610, most members of the Umayyad dynasty were determined to force the defeat of Mohamed and the suppression of his message. At the time, Abu Sufyan, the patriarch of the Umayyad declared, “We competed with them [the family of Mohamed] . . . like two race horses. As soon as we were equal in all fronts, they announced they had a prophet with a revelation from God. When will we be able to attain the same? I swear to God, we will never believe him or his faith.” "



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http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2007/04/islam-sunni-shi a-split.html


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Billa tabsara

Re: # 9

[[ I can go on and talk about other faiths and their depleted ideologies but then it wouldn't do any good. So guys suck your guts. ]]

FAITH itself is a retarded concept ... and that is what I alluded to

rest of your post is simply drivel

brilliant summing up , all in the family , initially a struggle between banu ali and banu ummayyya and then a struggle between bannu ummayya and bani abbas.

and now we have wahhabi arab versions of islam mixed with pashtun fanaticism a dangerous combination.

strategic anarchy.

karbala to marshal law.

it is absurd to call a religion a political system.
Agha Amin

Who created Taliban, the west to fight off russia, now the boys have become too bigs for their boots, so bomb them. What was americans thinking when they gave training to mulla omar in their camps.I agree that voilence is not an answer. Any kind of voilence is unacceptable. But if you come to take my house by force, I will defend it with all possible means.Its a shame to close ones logic and be bias. I can go on and talk about other faiths and their depleted ideologies but then it wouldn't do any good. So guys suck your guts.

Re: # 3
carbon...

"...billion plus..."
Number of bipeds does not make islam good or bad....
World houses more illiterates than university grads....Does that make University grads inferior?

Believing does not make things true ...
* belief in one God - God is neither one nor many, probably transcends these
* belief in angels - neither seen nor heard, do not exist
* belief in prophets or messengers of God - well did God say so?, it is always the prophets/messengers saying that they are prophets or messengers.
* belief in the Judgment Day - Well, many Christians thought it was 2000 AD, some are saying 2012 AD now. World isnt going to end..
* belief in God’s pre- knowledge and determination of all things - Certains things transcend God's determination like Einstein's law, Newton's law, laws of thermodynamics etc etc. They are not willed by God, they are there, for us to observe.

Believe in what you may, but unfortunately, science has advanced far enough to show the hollowness of these medeival belieifs. First get over it, get rational.
Kranti

"Islam" today is nothing but paindoos trying to have their cake and eat it too. To rail against the west, while chewing on medicines developed in the west. To talk of the "muslim ummah vs the west" one day, and to blow up mosques of other "muslim" sects the next. To howl about "palestinian rights" and "kashmiri rights" on fridays, and to live by the rule of "might is right". To take make a virtue of the "five pillars" of Islam and of begging God for favors in order to "insure" a place in "heaven" for themselves after they have ended their miserable, hypocritical lives. To wear the hijab, while retaining the most primitive and sexually-laced filth inside their hijab-covered heads or beard-covered chins.

Hypocrisy is another name for Islam.

as for the author Mr Qureshi ... I don't know what you have written (since I never read it) but have a fair idea .... my 'take away' message for you can be summed up as follows:

"dubito ... ergo cogito ... ergo sum"

and for those 'imaan waley' hazraat who don't know how to 'doubt' ... they may as well not exist as humans! ... since there is little difference between them and a flock of sheep or a herd of cattle!

take care

Re: # 3; carbon

your post made me laugh so much, its not funny!

some people think 'believing' is like a conscious act ... and one can decide to 'believe' at will!! what a ridiculous thought indeed ... as if one DECIDES to believe and all is ok! .. and no other components are required that would otherwise class one as a rational being! ... may be this 'believing is something one can 'outsource' too ... lol!!

reminds me of the following quote from Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency, by Douglas Adams:

[[The Electric Monk was a labour-saving device, like a dishwasher or a video recorder. Dishwashers washed tedious dishes for you, thus saving you the bother of washing them yourself, video recorders watched tedious television for you, thus saving you the bother of looking at it yourself; Electric Monks believed things for you, thus saving you what was becoming an increasingly onerous task, that of believing all the things the world expected you to believe.]] .... then he goes on to introduce his DELUXE MODEL (monk) as someone who'd belive in things (on your behalf) what they won't believe in Salt Lake City!

what a retarded way of thinking indeed!

You have a fine understanding and grasp of islam, its history. But you have only quoted the negative aspects, there were positive too, or there wouldn't have been a billion plus believers.its faith, believe and oneness of Allah with which Rasool invited the first muslims.Rasool during his lifetime completed the message of Allah. The later conflicts, life styles of rulers, infighting and so on are all political. So its your choice eventually to live with the faith or have doubts and keep on living in dilemma.

LOL...ROTFL....@#$%^&....So, out of 1.2 billion muslas, most of the muslas do not practise ideal Islam!!!!!
Islam is not a pre-historic era concept. Neither people are unaware of activities of Mo and followers and their barbaric mischiefs...
What made the people of Saudi Arabia forgetting the message of Mo? Any specific analysis?

As you may be knowing, there are many experts (including me) on Islam on this site. But Mr. Hamza Yousafzei is the right person to answer all your questions and clear confusion. His Aqida is firm and his passion for the causes he supports is exemplary. Rest assured a good healthy discussion will be there and all the right conclusions acceptable to all will be reached.

Otherwise in the words of Our Great Sage Mr. Jang:- 'Imperialism is the pillar of Islam.'