Bombay Lefties

nkg, "You should agree that, Indian social model survived without much turmoil for more than 2000 years.."

doesn't mean it has to be perpetuated. Times have changed this model will have to adopt to modern sensibilities.

Granting profession by birth and not by merits may have worked for ancient India (which surprisingly doesn't highlight the exploitation and perils of vulnerable communities) but that model is outdated and irrelevant.

Ref#184-185 nkg
Agreed that the biggest killings took place
in industrialized Europe, be it the WWs or
the Bureaucratic Dictatorships-Show Trials.

Regarding West Bengal-Again-If we have to
understand Nandigram, we will have to look
a little back to Marichjhapi.

But in all this, what frame of reference will
we have for an Industrial city based area
where the standard of living is improving.

It is the question of having a Frame of reference,
building health-educational infrastructure

Prashant...
The Marxism etc. etc. is recent phenomenon after industrial revolution; aka, when a single industry will employ large number of labour and some people will promote the industry...It started in Europe and was mucg relevant for that situation....
Now, if you look at the ancient Indian model, where each profession group/caste group used to stay in the same locality and created medium scale/small scale industries and survived without exploitation etc...You should agree that, Indian social model survived without much turmoil for more than 2000 years...In Gujrat, the medium scale manufacturing clusters are well managed and without leftists/rightists, they are doing very well....
I am from Waste Bengal ( earstwhile West Bengal or you say Paschim Vanga). The worker's union, specialy those lead by CPI(M) have done nothing good to the industry. Entire industrial belt in Barackpore, Howrah and Hooghly is ailing.

Re: # 183
Prashant...
Yo...Look, India was highly disciplined society. So, there was nothing called "Sadharan" or casual talk those days...So, I think, his interacts belongs to that category...If you ignore his style of writing, the message is clear...Communists do not lack the number, in terms of genocide compared to Christian Crusade or Musla Jihad....Indians are petty in this matter and does not qualify for competetion....

Ref#151 Guru and 157 and 179 Satya100

Very nice reply which speaks for itself. Keep it up.
A question-Please enlighten all regarding which category of
Gunas- Rajas (Passionate) Tamasic (Lazy) or Sattvic (truth seeking)do these interacts fall into.

Or in another categorization written in Gita and Hindu philosophy
Is it Rakshas Pravriti –Demonic,
Pashu Pravriti-Animal,
Manusya Pravriti -Human or
Dev Pravriti God like-Truth seeking)
in which you interact.

Hope giving a framework of Hindu Ethical codification will make you interact on a healthier note.

Regarding #182 :Ref to interact #175

"Most of the riots and exploitation happens because people are made to believe that they are not able themselves, they need a particular job for survival."

How many Mumbai lefties who worked with Girani Kamagars helped in creating night schools for unskilled labor to become skilled labor? How many helped entrepreneurial among the workers to start their own mini-cotton mills? How many reached to Apana Chikna (JN) for setting up such cooperative mills with govt help. The solutions were there in front but for that first you need to be Mumbai SamajSudharak and not Bombay Lefties and take your head out of 19th century alien dadhiwala baba's red butt. Tat is why I say BA (Hon.)s need to be hung by their balls at every lamp post in Mumbai yo complete its name change.

Re: # 180
Tahmed32
If you see Marx through Marxism, a creed or a system that his followers made him, you will do no justice to the man. Karl Marx was a prolific writer, a revolutionary, and a researcher. Despite his predictions that did not happen, the substance of his work remains consequential and depicts his era in a fairly distinguished manner. His work follows the spirit of earlier modern political thinkers like Rousseau, Locke and Hobbes.

#178 malikrashid: like i said, some parts of marxism make sense - the idea of socio-political structures deriving from the "mode of production" being probably the most obvious one that makes sense. other parts made no more sense than mullah fazlullah - e.g. his claim that once in power the "proletariat" would behave like saints. also, his confident predictions of the demise of capitalism proved to be greatly exaggerated, to put it mildly. even his view of history proved based absurd and his linear predictions into the future never took place - and no serious social scientist would make such simplistic generalizations of the past, let alone prophesies of the future.

hardly a basis for the "A" you are giving Marx. Now, if Karl was competing on the normal curve with Groucho and Harpo for comedy, perhaps one could give him a "B" grade.

"Where were the Lefties..We were definitely not slaughtering people on religious lines."

Tum Bahut Gojire Ho! Dhoodh Piyoge? Bourvita ya Ovaltine Dalke?

I asked you how many cooperatives, so called lefty Gs created in Lal Bag or any of the Lal kingdoms (Bengal and Kerala). Most of the riots and exploitation happens because people are made to believe that they are not able themselves, they need a particular job for survival.

Your 19th century dhadivala G mamu was also writing and giving suggestions to Angloes how to subjugate Indians besides writing Lal book. With that kind of consciousness, we know exactly what kind of Abrahmic gandugiri might be there in the Lal book.

About killings, how many millions did Stalin and Mao butchered? Why do you not protest Tibet and Uighir massacres? You may not be killing in the name of Abrahamic concept called profit-religion but you have done killings much more in much short time.

The most important killings you have done is of people's creativity and entrepreneurial spirit. You are yet another Abrahamic religion which breeds where the mind is already enslaved and dehumanized.

Thoda gana suno!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1icVGZtsZE&feature=related

Re: # 177
Tahmed32
Karl Marx was an excellent critique of capitalism. The movement he inspired, resulted in empowering the poor and weak. Ideology and religion fail to address the dynamics of change and mentally limit their beholders through beliefs, freezing them in outdated fragmentation.

malikrashid #176 The "end of history" was a good selling gimmick for the book, but clearly absurd. history did not begin with the soviet union and it was never obviously about to end with the end of the soviet union.

"class conflict" is similarly a good selling gimmick for the communist ideology, but clearly absurd. Just look at the issues involved in human conflict at any forum (armed conflict in swat or anywhere else, or political conflict in the national assembly, even on chowk itself!) and you will see what I mean. Marx basically took a few sound notions and wrapped them in layers of absurdities and his fervent followers (like fervent followers of any ideology or religion) then placed these absurdities on a pedestal, untouchable by common sense.

Re: # 173
Tahmed32
Competition and conflicts between nation-states do have the potential to disrupt and destroy. Therefore the notion of end of history (end of contradictions) do not hold much water. Considering the fact that a large majority lives in poverty, class-conflicts could not be written-off either. A destiny not dictated by aggression and insecurity still seems elusive.

Ref#167 Dost Mittar

JOINT FAMILY-CHANGING MODES OF PRODUCTION

While citing the “Joint Family system” of Agrarian society, and then seeing how the
Pricing-division differences in mode of production and shift to cities led to it’s distortion
And disintegration in many ways, you yourself have partially answered the question.

As production means advance to more industrialized modes, and as people shift to the cities, the old modes of social organization too change as is evident in the changing norms of the “Joint system”.

TOO SIMPLISTIC IN ERA OF FINANCE CAPITAL

Regarding Greed and Fear- This is an old argument against Marxism, reducing things to the individual and simplistic level.

We live in the era of Finance Capital: There are world-wide connections of capital which make of all modern countries a single integrated organism

The problem of development of the countries where the industrial revolution did not take place is to be addressed keeping in mind that these are products of international developments plus the Agrarian question (which brings us back to your Joint family question..good example for discussion).

Can these be solved in the framework of liberal bourgeois democracy?

The way the ‘red carpets’ are rolled out for even Under Secretaries from Big-Powers, who come and give dictation to our so-called Leaders, all thinking minds have to do a re-think.

what is interesting though is that 60 years ago, there were virtually no democracies in the world except US and UK! and UK back then was a democracy only within the UK - and an empire outside it!

#166 malikrashid: while your point is valid (i.e. democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the alternatives), the fact remains there is much that can be done to improve democracy. the trouble is not so much with democracy but with the broader environment of nation-states around it. global problems need orchestrated efforts by all mankind - and that isnt happening given the topsy-turvy nature of nation-states.

"Greed and fear are the greatest motivators"
It's called incentive is Capitalist societies. :) You should have incentive to work hard to strive to do better for yourself. I guess the difference is greed is unregulated incentive based motivation, which we don't see in democratic setup.

Malikrashid, even without characterizing the democracy with liberalism it is a fine institution....