Why are Pakistanis so Foreign? It’s the Americans’ Fault!

I thought you were going to make a rather interesting argument, but I seem to have lost your central point.

I think a large part of why Pakistanis are different is because they are visually and culturally different. And, I dont know who came up with the idea that we are caucasian. The whole label (like anti-semitic) is misleading and inaccurate. (It should technically be someone from the caucasus, but isnt. i would like to know the origin and genesis of the term.) And classifying South Asians as caucasians doesnt mean jack!! We are visually different - not white - and we are not non-european. and we know what that means in eurocentric america. Most non-desi`s I have met in the US dont have much of a clue about Pakistan or Pakistani`s. We are lumped together with Indians or other non-white third world immigrants - poor, desperate, uncivilized, exotic (unless we look and act and talk and dress white-american). these racist views of the non-white, non-western world are entirely compatible with US jingoism and global imperialism.

excuse me, it should be ``non-european``, not ``not non-european``.

A fascinating thread seems to be brewing here. It is interesting how a Western name forces us to get defensive.

Re: BG

Okay, so who should we be lumped up with? Strong words you have chosen, - ``We are lumped together with Indians or other non-white third world immigrants - poor, desperate, uncivilized, exotic ...`` but leave the impression that the central point has been missed twice over, so perhaps the central point has not even been addressed yet. Reminds me of an incident where my friend was forced to leave a blank space in a birth form because there was no specific mention of Pakistani, only Indian. I bet Sohail Rabbani can prove that in another 100 years the same reaction will lead to a Sindhi or a Punjabi category in various forms. Quite a day that would be - yikes!

Re: Shan Anwar

Well said, sir. Implicit in your argument is the message that we should be proud of our skin, proud of its color, proud of what we believe in - of course, we are different and therein begins our contribution to this world. As is (must be) written somewhere on Chowk - we ought to celebrate diversity, not simply appreciate it and lend lip service. I daresay, like you, we ought to also defend our differences.

Re: Saad Shafqat

I think the author does allude to the religious underpinnings through a paragraph - ``Sure, the Pakistan Constitution is rife with acknowledgments to Allah. But, U.S. history is an unambiguous collage of religious superciliousness and blatant sanctimony. ``

Regards

Safwan,

I wasnt arguing that we shouldnt be lumped with indians or other `third world` types, just pointing out that whether or not we are technically caucasian (ignoring the problem with the label itself) we are different and are generally perceived as such through a racist, eurocentric lens. Does this respond to your question?

Re: BG

Yes, it does.

Steve
First a dose of righteous indignation!

There goes fifty years of collective effort! Many a feudal/army/beaurecrat/industry wallah
are turning in their graves, if dead. Or fidgeting
uneasily if alive.

THIRTY SEVEN?!

It is barely double digit and descending rapidly.

Alif zabar Aaa: Alif zair Aey: Alif pesh O
can only uniquely make us read. Read
and memorise Holy words without understanding. That is not THIRTY SEVEN %.

Sorry I went off on a tangent, Steve, But so
did you.
regards

Re: Safwan

I promise not to bring up Sindhi or Punjabi ethnicity in this matter :)

This is indeed an interesting thread and the general reaction of people (defensive indignation) is noteworthy. The Max Muller article is even more fascinating. The quality of the stuff being submitted is getting very impressive and you guys deserve all the accolades for pulling it off.

...SR

What race are we? Do we have to identify with a particular race? The question is one of definitions. How do we define race? Do we define it based on morphological (visual) characteristics, on the basis of single gene traits, on minute but significant differences in blood type, other polymorphisms such as how much of a particular amino acid we excrete etc. How much should the difference be to constitute a separate race? Clearly we cannot define race based on culture - people of very disparate races can share a culture. It is certainly too simplistic to divide up all the races of the world into Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Most modern analyses divide them up into many more 6-9 (depending on what differences they consider important), of which Indian is one, European is another (this includes North Africa and the Middle East, Iran), Subsaharan Africa is separate, Native Americans, Native Australians, and various ways of classifying the large ``Mongoloid`` group. So if we use race as the basis of our identity, where does that leave me - a person of mixed Iranian, Arab, and Turkic descent who by an accident of fate came to live in Pakistan, and identifies with Pakistani culture. Which blank should I, and the many others like me tick - the Caucasian or the Indian? Neither define who I am. The problem lies in the fact that South Asia has been the true melting pot of civilization. This leaves us with a people of many races, Indian, Caucasian, and Asiatic (the Gilgitis), necessarily making the concept of race as the basis of identity in the context of South Asia a very ambiguous one.

Also, do we really want to be labeled and considered ``different``? Not all minorities in the US want this. Asian Americans definitely don`t. My sister-in-law works for minority recruitment at Harvard and most Asians decline to be listed as a minority. I cringe everytime I walk by a display at my hospital which purports to celebrate diversity by putting up pictures of ``Black Achievers of the Month``. I certainly don`t want to be a ``South-Asian Achiever of the Month``. Do we have to use race as a means to get special treatment in the US? Unlike African-Americans and Hispanics (another vague term) we are not disadvantaged minorities in the US. Just using the field of Medicine and the Biological Sciences as an example, people of South Asian origin are already much, much over-represented. About 10% (in some programs even more)of the incoming classes at Harvard are of Indian or Pakistani origin. What we perceive as a bias against our race in America is actually a bias against ALL fresh off the boat people. Not one of my American born acquaintances have said (and I have asked)that they have felt their race has held them back in any way. To Americans, it seems, that a person of South Asian origin who speaks like an American, is the same as them.

For those of us who are parents, this issue of wanting to be different while living in America approaches gigantic proportions. It is hard to raise children to be ``good``, well-adjusted, thoughtful individuals anyway. Add to that the constant pressure of teaching them to maintain a separate identity from all the people around them. I can make these rules for myself - I want to be different. Is it fair for me to have this expectation for my children? If not, this entire issue of separate identity for South Asians would die with me - the whole discussion is moot. If yes, I will be constantly telling my daughter to do things in a different way - from the mundane (always use water in the restroom), to the ridiculous (we shouldn`t observe April Fool`s Day b/c it is a custom popularized by the British), to the profound (should we have a Christmas tree and celebrate Christmas, should I let her date at 14?). How do I pick and choose between what is compatible with ``our culture`` and what is not? For many of us at Chowk, what we think is our culture is very different from what people in Pakistan think it is. Shan Anwar`s description of the corporate South Asian culture in Water Buffaloes does not at all mesh with most Pakistanis idea of Pakistani culture, even for the majority living in middle America (forget Pakistanis living in Pakistan). It is a description of corporate American culture with few remnants of desiness. The occasional Urdu/Hindi used for style, a few nostalgic remarks of what things are like back in the homeland.

What we seem to be saying is we want to be American when it suits us, and Pakistani when it doesn`t.

Hey, Anita.

My response may repeat what Shan has said, but I think these issues are important enough to be reiterated.

Race is not just a biological term. the last 5-7 hundred years have shown us that it is a social construct, a political term, and ultimately, a question of power. yeah, its ambiguous and the overlap with culture, tricky, but it is hugely significant, especially in societies like the US.

And, puhleeez, I am sick and tired of Asians gloating over their percentages in the medical and biological sciences and freshman classes in ivy leagues. Your frame of reference is limited, like that of many other professional/yuppy Pakistani`s (excuse my lable). Many of whom would be caught dead admitting to themselves that they are a minority and therefore have anything in common with other minorities (blacks and hispanics). Sadly, they will even cringe at acknowledging that they have anything in common with other poorer pakistanis. A large number of pakistanis are undocumented, so they are not going to show up in any official statistics. they are your cab drivers, restaurant workers, sweat-shop workers and nannies. they are not going to show up in harvard law school or new york medical hospital. they are not going to speak like an american (at least the kind you have in mind). does that mean that they do not exist? that they dont have problems?

The awareness and acknowledgement of race as a problem and a reality in this society is a question of morality, yes. but as shan points out, it is also in our longer-term interest to wake up to the racism in this society.

There should be a new word coined to describe a people`s identity based on racial nationalism. Till such time broad based hyphens will have to do. The more the merrier.

Persian-Mohaijr-Sindhi-Pakistani-Canadian or Kasmiri-Punjabi-Pakistani-American?

Instead of discrmination we should discuss discernment. To me discernment is positive discrimination. With or without realising it we have indulged in it all our lives.

Most of us here in North America come from a certain economic bracket. Back in Pakistan we used to discern/discriminate like there was no tomorrow. And invariably here we have to start at the wrong end of the totem pole.Hence this acute awareness.

So I am a hyphen. Do you mind? And I promise I won`t introduce the concept of Ummah in this discussion. Not yet.

regards

Re: Shan Anwar and BG


With very few exceptions, I believe in a color blind society - and you apparently don`t - herein lies the difference.

These are what I see as the flaws in your arguments. Firstly, is the question of identity. Since Pakistanis constitute a very small minority in the US (less than quarter of a percent) it is perhaps justified that we don`t have our own box to tick (if not, than as Safwan pointed out, why not have Punjabi, Pathan, Kashmiri etc.). So then, we have to choose a larger group to identify with - and is South Asian our identity or should we align with the Islamic community in the US? Is ethnicity more important or is religion? To my mind this is not at all clear. The more ``Westernized`` among us might choose the South Asian identity. For the majority, Islam is the more important unifying force. And in the latter, I think, we have a legitimate claim.

Secondly, I argue vociferously that the South Asian minority is different from the disadvantaged minorities of America. But not for the reasons you think - that we want to identify with goras b/c identifying with black and hispanic minorities will sully us, as we are better than them or they are worse than us. Not at all - I am just pointing out that we are not disadvantaged, and so I cannot see why we need to be given ``special consideration`` as a race. I am not saying that South Asian communities do not have their problems (we all know they have the suffocating parent problem!), but systematic racial discrimination is not one of them (I talk here only of American born desis, will come back to the FOBD problems later). Admittedly, I have a limited frame of reference - I work almost exclusively with the absolute bottom of the pit disadvantaged folks in this land of the plenty - black and hispanic children of homeless drug addicts with HIV - who live in rat and bug infested project housing or bounce around from shelter to shelter with no one who cares two hoots for them. And this while investment bankers on Wall Street advise their wealthy clients to invest in Pharmaceuticals - a foolproof investment since people can always be counted upon to need their drugs and drug companies can dictate prices and hold patents (excuse my rage against the Wall Street types who talk of discrimination - can`t help it). What kind of start in life are these children getting, don`t they deserve some a little affirmative action? Does their experience in any way resemble the experience of the South Asian community in the US - the majority of whom have immigrated from the very top echelons of their society? Yes, Pakistani cab drivers are poor but at least they are making sure their children have better lives than they did - and the children might even get to go to an Ivy League school (I feel badly about all the illegal immigrants - but they had a choice in the matter, and their children are still going to school - no one is denying them an education or caring parents). I would like to see evidence in support of Shan`s statement that ``research of second generation South Asians show that their lot will be less than that of their parents``. I seriously doubt this assertion.

Also, American Pakistani community has little in common with the Pakistani community in Britain. I have had the misfortune of living in Britain for several years - and their grievances about racial discrimination are definitely genuine.

Thirdly, in response to ``it is almost a cliche in South Asian American research of the second generation child born in a hybrid space who feels enormously self-concious about his or her cultural identity...`` Well, you are the one who is advocating this - pushing our differences so that our children will always think they are different, even if America is willing to accept them as American.

Fourthly, ``Is that really important (that Americans consider South Asians with an American accent, American). I don`t give a damn if he [American] thinks I am Martian, as long as he does not infringe upon my rights..``
You are contradicting yourself here, Shan - b/c earlier you said that you want the American to think you are different, you want him to fear you. And how is the American infringing on your rights?

We all like to bich about America. BG wants us to ``wake up to the racism in this society``. Yes, there is racism here - but at the same time, this is the most open, non-racist society that has ever existed. Look at Pakistan if you want to see some examples of racism.

Lastly the issue about discrimination against people perceived as foreigners which I think is distinct from discrimination on the basis of race or ethnicity. This definitely exists and is probably most felt by foreign medical graduates in the US, who as a group are systematically discriminated against. This is a completely separate issue - this is not a group that is struggling with a cultural identity. We cannot help being different - Again, we do this by choice. This is how I see it. We decided to come here of our own accord b/c America had something to offer us, and we liked it so much that we ended up staying. The price we have to pay for that decision is checking that ``other`` box - for, as someone said recently - we are the bastrad children of history - racially ambiguous, unsure of what our culture really is - South Asian or Islamic? I don`t have the answer. May be one of you can define it better. What is our cultural identity? Who are we?

Anita

Saad,

``What do you mean by half-learnt liberal rhetoric`` ? Please substantiate you accusation or refrain from making personal attacks.

I would characterize my `puhleeez` as frustration not petulance. Please dont ascribe sentiments based on speculation. if you want to know how or why i said something, please ask.

i was not asking anyone to be `sensitive to desi losers at the expense of desi winners`. anita was arguing that desis are doing rather well, (judging by mainstream measures of achievement like admission to harvard). I wanted to point out that a lot of them are not and they dont show up in any official statistics, least of all harvard percentages because they are undocumented. so, to get a sense of how desi`s are doing in the US, one must recognize and account for `the losers`(btw, I support Shan`s response to that and wont repeat it)as well as the `winners`.

I am not interested in raising my self-esteem by focussing on people like burki and shaukat aziz, etc. My self esteem is tied to whether or not I am able to live my life with integrity and meaning, not whether 10% of harvard is desi. And, why should I feel proud of desi`s who get into brand name universities? I am proud of desi`s who do something worthwhile with their lives, and getting into a good school is not necessarily worthwhile in and of itself.

Its not about feeling good or bad about your community. Its about recognizing that there are heirarchies based on class and race. And which side of the power ledger you end up is largely an accident of birth, not a result of personal acheivement.

antia,

so as not to repeat what shan said, i will add only a couple of things:

1. just because you work with the ``absolute bottom of the pit...black and hispanic children of homeless drug addicts`` does not mean that you know how the poorer desi`s or their children live in this country and how their future is going to shape up. when i spoke of your `frame of reference` i was speaking of the other desi`s you know and talk to. your colleagues, your friends.

2. you agree that this society is racist, but then you say that it is one of the least racist and open societies (how do you arrive at that conclusion?). i am confused? this society is racist, and whether or not I am personally and directly affected by this racism, I feel I must do whatever I can to change things because I live here. I would do the same in Pakistan. just because its better than pakistan and i have a decent life does not mean, at least to me, that i can sit back complacently and celebrate desi achievers!

Interesting article. but somehow I think the issue - why are pakistanis so foriegn - simply gets lost in the critique on american superpower mentality (and the caucasian reference).

One factor, that I think is most imporatnt, is missed entirely - i.e. is the obsession with skin color. Immigrants from china, japan, or the
subcontinent continue to be immigrants or ``other``. But immigrants from europe or russia, even those who have come recently, easily blend in. Skin color, much more than culture, seems to affect the american (and even european) impression of us vs them. Look at the irish in the US for example. There are exceptions (i.e. anti-semitism) but very few the other way around.

Calling people from the subcontinent caucasian does not take away any of the obvious phenotypical and cultural differences. It is about as substantive a statement as calling all caucasians africans and then wondering ehy they don`t get along.

In the words of Hallie Sallasi (and put to music by Bob Marley) ``and until the color of a man`s skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes - there is a war``

Now I finally understand the anthropological significance of the muTiar snow ad:
kalay rung nu gora kar day, tay goray rung nu
chund warga...

It`s our way of going back to the fundamentals in
terms of skin color/tone!

*Newsflash *
All NY cabbies are carrying on-cab ``tooNties`` of baked custard to honor the successes of ``fellow``
``desi-winner`` Shaukat Aziz!!

And there was much rejoicing!


Overheard in Chenab restaurant in Manhattan:
``halankeh is say farq to paRta naheeN``

RE: Shan Anwar

Needless to say, I continue to have a totally different take on this. At the expense of sounding iterative, since we seem to be arguing tangentially, let me restate:

1) To me, the desi community in the US is a thriving, extremely successful one, with a very bright future. We can justifiably be proud of its achievements. And I agree with Saad`s point about celebrating our heroes - and would like to add Umair and Safwan to the list. We have so few contemporary heroes that we`ve almost forgotten what it`s like to be proud of someone else`s ability and achievement. We are always trying to tear each other down.

2) I vigorously dispute the notion, in the absence of any concrete evidence that largely ``unskilled`` Pakistanis have been coming here since the `80`s. On the contrary, this has been the period in which young Pakistanis have come here in unprecedented numbers - as undergrads, grad students, physicians, engineers etc. and (with the exception of physicians) I don`t see this trend reversing any time soon. Shan, you mention some interesting references but don`t tell us what they say. Quoting actual data (not somebody`s opinion, since that`s all we have right now) may help move this discussion further along.

3)I think that using a separate racial identity to move ``our cause`` forward is an ill-conceived idea which may backfire. We cannot prove that we are a disadvantaged community. On the contrary much evidence exists that we are very successful compared to the other minorities in the US by whatever measure you may choose to use (educational level of second generation Pakistanis, median household income etc.). And the children of poor first generation Pakistanis have one major advantage over similar income blacks and Hispanics. Most Pakistani parents place tremendous importance on their children`s education.

4) To me, it is a disservice to the truly under-priveleged minorities of America for us (and other Asian communities) to demand special minority protection rights. I say, we don`t need them. Such a demand implies a defeatist attitude, whereas self-reliance builds strength. It is so easy to fall into the trap of ``we are victims and somebody is to blame`` type of thinking so prevalent in America today. This does not mean that we shouldn`t develop some sort of organized voice and try to maintain our religio-cultural links with Islam and Pakistan. An agenda that influences favourable US policy towards Pakistan, counters misdirected anti-Islamic propaganda, fosters debate among the community about issues that impact on all its members (progressive Islamic values, inter-generational conflicts, economic uplift of poor Pakistanis at home, and here etc.)would be a good start.

5) None of this addresses the central question of what our cultural identity is, or should be - and you haven`t touched upon it either. I struggle with this question everyday and wish I had the answers. I like to think I am an open-minded person (you may wish to dispute this :)) and so I am reluctant to force ANYTHING on my daughter (yes, it all comes down to this b/c nothing else forces one to confront the complexity of this issue as when one has to teach an unformed mind). I want her to be able to make her own choices - whether she chooses to consider herself American, Pakistani, Pakistani-American, South Asian, Sunni, Shia, non-believer, whatever! This leaves me with the unenviable task of having to think about the implications of the damnest little thing I teach her (more on this some other time). As my baby boomer generation colleagues (who grew up smoking pot) like to point out - parenthood is the greatest equalizer - it has quashed many a rebel spirit!

6) Am glad to note you`ve gotten around to calling me Anita.