What Is Your Caste?

Dear Dr. Udayakumar

I have read your work for the first time after hearing praise of it from friends and family. I picked your article ``What is your caste`` almost randomly from the list of your articles posted on Chowk.

Although there are several questions that came to my mind while reading the article, I will only ask one in recognition of the preciousness of time for you Sir.

You propose a system of calculating eligibility for the truly oppressed/disadvantaged by allocating points for various factors such as family education, gender etc. You have concluded that this system of calculating eligibility will result in the eradication of discrimination. Sir, I want to ask you, is not giving a female more points than a male a clear example of `discrimination`. Is your approach to elimination of discrimination, not a based on discrimination itself? More like a circular argument? At best, your porposal can be called a system of bringing social justice to those who have been treated unjust in the past but in the longer run, this system will result in problems of its own.

A concerned Subcontinental.

With regards,

Sajida

re ranaransher

i agree with most of what you say. your point about jamaadars is on the money. that is probably the starkest and most caste-like dynamic that still exists in our country.

all i was trying to point out was that in pakistan the `caste system` is different from that in india. there is at least the potential for *mobility * based on class mobility, even though it may be almost impossible. also, the kind and degree of heirarchy varies by the type of social relationship that exists/existed. some tribes (for instance in NWFP and balochistan), though heirarchical and far from perfect, were traditionally more egalitarian than zamindaari and nawabi setups.

as i said, my own experience with ``caste`` (and not class), where people identify and distinguish themselves on the basis of what they do or their ancestors did is anectodal and seems to be diminishing; but that may not be the case nationally, i dont know.

personally, i think, class is the definitive heirarchy of pakistani society, with its shameful exploitation of peasants and `naukars`. naturally, there are a great deal of overlaps between class and caste, but to say that caste exists in pakistan as it does in india would be as inaccurate as saying that it does not exist at all (in any form).

re fozia

you are correct that the treatment of servants (which has become an exclusively class-based relationship) is reminiscent of caste. however, imagine if a former servant goes to dubai and makes a decent amount of money and his kids go to `decent` schools. by the second generation they will not be treated like naukars becuase they will not be serving as domestic workers. and if they have a last name like ahmad or khan or whatever, no one will be able to identify them as naukars` children. one of the things with caste as it exists in india is how you can always identify someone`s caste from their name.

of course, in the final analysis, it makes little material difference to someone whether they are treated awfully because of their caste or class, if they have no means of movng ``up`` in society. and class differentials are no better than those based on caste.

I think it`s naive to think that the Muslims who`ve been in the Indian subcontinent for 800+ years would not have been affected by the caste mentality.

I remember 1.5 years ago I was on a PIA flight from Canada to Pakistan, and after a few minutes of conversation with the woman seated beside me she asks (in Urdu) ``If you don`t mind me asking, what caste are you?``, she actually used the english word caste in the Urdu sentence. When I answered that I don`t belong to any caste, she replies `` Yes, you must belong to one, are you Syed?``.

Now few Pakistanis will refer to Syed/non-Syedness as a caste because of the teachings of islam, yet they can`t remove this belief from their hearts.

This is why Syeds will refuse to marry non-syeds, or even associate as friends with them in some cases.

There is a concept of ``barra aadmi and chota aadmi`` (Big man little man) which is often used in reference to a master/servant relationship. The chota aadmi isn`t even allowed to sit in the master`s presence. (hmm reminiscent of hindu caste) After the movement of many Pakistanis to the middle east (and with them their servants) many servants saw that arabs didn`t treat their servants with such a distinct class difference and hence demanded that their pakistani masters do the same.

And while many upper-class Pakistanis pay lip-service to helping the poor uneducated people to further themselves, just watch what will happen when the ``knockar`s`` son get`s a better score than their`s on the medical school exam and hence gets accepted while their son is rejected.

Regards,

Fozia

So

re: SaaD, BG & Kafir
Interesting points. THe caste system in India does have roots along the Aryan-Dravidian divide. In fact, the Sanskrit (language of the ``Aryans``, texts, etc) word for caste is varn which literally means colour. Hence, the theory that the kaala-goraa complex in India was long before the Angrez came.
Caste system is basically division of labour. The difference being the upper classes enforced it hereditarilly (which the author refers to). In India, many ``sects`` came and tried reforming this ``Church`` of the caste-system. Vedanta, Arya Samaaj, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Sikhism all preached equality and outlawed the caste system. Since the name contained the caste/gotra/clan these ``sects`` addressed these issues by offering alternate names. However, each one of these ``sects`` soon became ``Churches`` themselves and the accursed caste system keeps creeping back. Over time, these changed names then effectively became sub-castes. Socially, at least.
Caste is illegal in India. Has been for a long time. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis may argue that it never existed in Islam, so there is no question of it existing today. But has it gone away from our society ? The basic socio-econmic structure across present day South Asia is completely based on the caste system. THe concept of land owner, land worker, tiller (author refers to these) is the foundation for zamindaaris. Pakistanis prefer to call this feudalism. Do you actually believe all the haves/landlords in these countries worked for these fortunes that they have ammassed. No they inherited them, and sustained them the same way their ancestors did.
In Pakistan, apart from the maliks, sardars, rajputs, other jat names, which indicate presence of he caste system, I understand, about 80-90% of the country is setup on some agriculture based zamindaari system. Yeah, most people changed their names, but the caste system was never reformed. Even the laws today support this. Their is no agriculture tax. Allowing the haves to divert profits from other sectors and show them as agricultural. Leaving about a 1% income tax paying populace.
In India, a lot of the electorate still votes based on the feudal/caste system. THere was a ``land ceiling act`` intrduced after 1947 which limited the amount of land an individual could hold. This, to a great extent, killed the zamindaaris, somewhat blurring the distinctions between the upper castes. However, the distinctions vis a vis the lower castes are stark to this day. The people are in completely different socio-economic categories. This has given birth to a lot of caste based political parties. THey shocked a lot of people by sweeping the polls in a lot areas. Of course, this is a backlash against the years of oppression at the hands of the ``haves``, but this kind of politics has very scary repercussions.
Today the BJP is not asking for the castes to be counted again. Every political party is supporting some form of ``reservation`` (author describes and even prescribes it!!). Reservation, is exactly like the ``affirmative action`` issue in India. Now these parties ask for certain percentage of reservations to be made for certain castes. Yet since 1947 no polls have been taken and so nobody really knows what castes and how much are there ? THe same question, incidently, is rearing its head in Pakistan, to enter ethnicity (Mohajir, Sindhi, etc.) in the census.
I personally do not believe in reservations. It is just reverse discrimination, discrimation nonetheless. You cannot undo history, only act out a better future version of it. THe author prescribes a reservation system, yet opposes a census to gather data for it. How does he propose to do this ?
As far as, pakistnis not acknowledging their past. IMHO, each one of you is making the same mistake by thinking only present day Hindus are afflicted with the bane on the caste-system. All the laws are against it, yet as a society we practice it. Here is a little test:
- Have you heard the words Chuura, Chamaar, Jamaadaar ?
- Do sweepers live in a separate colony ? Is there a whole community of people called ``sweepers``, jamaadars ?
I could go on but what is the point. Every ``sect`` tried to reform this but could never get rid of it from our society. Our culture of family, khaandaan, is based on it. In needs a lot more than mere introspection and acknowledgement of this ``Hindu disease``.
Do you guys honestly believe, that in 1947 a bunch of Arabs landed in pakistan and formed pakitan. Come on guys your own past can teach you a lot about your current social ills.
regards
RanaRansher

re saad shafqat

you raise interesting points. re your first point: i know that hitler invoked aryan (and he believed germans were aryans) superiority as part of the nazi ideology; it sounds conceivable that the nazi heirarchy would be similar to that based on caste.

re: bjp and caste. actually, my understanding is that hindutva (bjpstyle) promotes a very ``upper-caste`` (which includes many more castes than brahmins alone) view of hinduism and india. i am not sure of the proportions, but upper-caste represents much more than just the proportion of brahmins.

by the way, when i said ``caste``, i literally did mean ``caste`` in pakistan. I am aware of some communities who identify themselves according to the professions of their ancestors, which is similar to hindu castes; but as we agree, that seems to be diminishing. of course pakistanis try to distance themselves from any kind of hindu lineage, but the implication is that you were more likely to have converted to islam if you were lower caste. and if you werent, you`d hang on to your superior sounding names like rajput, etc? i dont know, this is all based on anectodal evidence.... :-)

RE: Kafir & Bad Girl.

I agree with Kafir. I think it is misleading to speak of caste in Pakistan in the same breath as caste in India. As Bad Girl points out, there are caste-like divisions in rural and traditional communities in Pakistan (e.g., Warraich, Rajput, etc.), but these originate in tribal heritage and not religious doctrine. As far as I know, there is no validated, societally-sanctioned, superiority/inferiority rank order amongst these traditional divisions, which makes them fundamentally different from Hindu castes.

There are, of course, caste-like, superior/inferior divisions in any society, on account of inevitable variation in human circumstances and potential. But: (a) it is very rare for such divisions to be upheld as an official religious/social/cultural practice; and (b) it remains possible, even if only in principle, for people to move across these divisions in successive generations. I think these are two dramatic ways in which Hindu caste is distinct from the social stratification in other peoples.

Oh, and btw, Bad Girl, Muslims try to distance their ancestry from Hindus of ANY caste, not just lower caste, :-).

RE: The Author.

Dr. Udayakumar, thank you for an informed and well-reasoned piece. This may be a bit tangential, but two other points come to mind.

First, there is a body work - of which I have only passing knowledge - that suggests that caste apartheid in India and the racial policies of Nazi Germany may have common roots. Historically, Indian Brahmins and Nazi Germans both claim descent from the same region, the Caucasus mountains in Russia. In India, these people (the so-called Aryans) suppressed the Dravidian stock that was native to the Indian subcontinent (and which may share a common origin with the aboriginal people of Australia, going back to the time when India and Australia were a common land mass). The Aryans were lighter-skinned than the Dravidians, which is still reflected to some extent in the skin-color gradient amongst Hindu castes. I am not sure if the origins of caste divisions in Hinduism are attributed to this ancient Aryan-Dravidian friction. Perhaps the author could shed some light on this.

Second, I think that caste apartheid has interesting implications for the political ambitions of Hindu fundamentalists in modern India. I would assume that the BJP elite are largely, if not completely, Brahmin, but that Brahmins are a demographic minority in India as a whole. That being so, it is hard to imagine that a ruling Brahmin elite will keep getting elected in a democratic vote. In the twenty-first century, I cannot imagine any majority willingly being talked down to by a minority that professes to be superior by birth. The caste-consciousness of the BJP is already rearing its ugly head if, as the author says, they are proposing to collect caste information in the next population census. I wonder, then, if the caste system automatically limits the shelf life of organizations like the BJP. Perhaps the author could speak to this as well.

saad shafqat

re kafir

hmmmmm....interesting.....why do you think people work so hard to establish their ``arab``/blue-blooded muslim or (less often persian or some other middle eastern/central asian connection)? one reason is because they dont want to be known as the lower caste hindus who converted to islam (one of the reasons for the chauvanism in former east pakistan). also, i think it is diminishing, but in rural and more traditional communities, there still are castes among pakistanis also. but, i agree with you, its not exactly analogous to caste in india.

``This Hindu curse has not spared even Islamic Pakistan where caste is said to be re-emerging since the late 1970`s.``

Is this really true? In all my experience with Pakistanis (limited though it is), I have never heard them talk about their caste background. I`ve heard people refer to their Syed background, or to their descent from a Companion of the Prophet, but never Hindu caste.