Religion and Current Social Practices - A dichotomy

Re: Amin Saleh
``Let the number become more balanced (closer to 50-50 from 85-15 currently rather than collect more data about the characteristics of the dads and moms.``

Actually that would be unethical again. Remember the study was NOTt done exclusively on kids of divorced parents with court assigned custody. Most absent fathers in poor nieghborhoods are absent because the children were born out of wedlock, and dads were not comitted to keeping the child anyway.Since crime is most rampant amongst kids of poor nieghbor hoods, the divorced parents`s custody arrangements are irrelevant to the society`s crime level.


This may not seem all that clear but believe me, the more you`ll examine sociology research, the more evident it`ll become. These are only some of the reasons why this kind of studies are very popular in the popular media but do not hold water when examined for policy implementation purposes.

Gathering more information about dads and moms will be essential because this study does not provide all the answers.

Saima Shah

As I mentioned to Aliya, the current situation in the developed countries are favorably poised towards mothers as they are considered care givers and the fathers are supposed to be wage earners. But sociologists realize now that those distinctions are being torn down by the concept of career women. In fact there have been cases where women have given their former husbands child support and alimony (as the woman was more successful than their husbands). This is despite the fact that the ``average`` wage for the women continues to be 25% lower than that of the ``average`` male.

Aliya

Yes its true that the translations are only about weaning and child support (or atleast on the face of it). However, I am still searching for supporting information of how this translates into child custody by the father.

I do recognize the interesting concept of father working in the Middle East with mother raising kids in Pakistan (on the other hand it also raises another interesting question of the state of Muslim Goverance in the Middle East where they employ people in a way that splits up families - unthinkable in North American Societies).

My sources of information are primarily linked to business publication as such I saw this article in the Wall Street Journal (a couple of weeks back). It did not mention which sociology journal did they eventually publish in.

Finally, I see that you agree that how will we know if dads don’t get to try? My answer to that is while random assignment of children would be unethical, let improve the quality of data by unbiasing the custody arrangement. Let the number become more balanced (closer to 50-50 from 85-15 currently rather than collect more data about the characteristics of the dads and moms. For all you know with this arrangement we would be playing God with the future of the children. Human are prone to make errors so let the errors be unbiased then based on our preconcieved evaluation of what would be the result of such an action.

Hi Amin,

Interesting article. Very thought provoking. I`d like to see some statistics on little boys growing up without mothers before making up my mind that boys need fathers rather than mothers.

I think little children need people caring for them who really really love them. They care-takers could come in female, male, in-between packaging but essentially the child should be an integral committment in their lives. It is true that the burden both emotional and financial on single mothers is so heavy that the committment to the child may not be fulfilled as well as it ought to be. The answer to that dilemma is not to shift the burden but to make the single mother stronger and more capable of making the sacrifices needed and honouring the committment.

Again, it is the unequal social status of women, which impacts subsequent love-relationships and earning-ability. Don`t forget the still persisting difference in wages.

To comment on the custody angle in Islam; Custody can revert to the father at two because that is the age the child is weaned from mother`s milk. Otherwise the child, male or female is the father`s from the age of seven, if the father wants him. TO my knowledge, most Muslim fathers (after divorce) do not come back for the children. These are real cases that I have seen. Any comments?

In our family courts custody is automatically given to the father, the idea of a woman obtaining custody through is far-fetched and extremely unlikely. It is assumed that the woman is incapable of taking responsibility and merely a routing mechanism for the father`s children.

Re; Amin Saleh
The translations are about weaning / child support, did I miss something?

I am sorry to keep insisting on the same point, but you’ve brought up a fascinating topic.In the study that you’ve quoted , the data analysis of National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (1979-1993), they controlled for the parent education, family income, urban residence, race, and being born to a teen mother, as far as I know.

But matching dads for criminal records, antisocial personality and substance abuse disorders is essential, my guess is that it wasn’t done because the data was not readily available. These traits are genetically transmitted. e.g. if a boy had a dad with antisocial personality disorder ( the diagnosis of 75% of prison population), and/or substance abuse, he is highly likely to have these traits himself ( even if he was adopted away at birth) . There is also a role for environment, but genetics can not be ignored. So why did dad leave in the first place is still important to know.Personally, I am familiar with a number of families in Pakistan, whose dads work in the middle East, and moms raise kids, those dads` genes are likely to be very different than those of the dads who left because they got incarcerated.Consequently the kids are likely to be different. Also of great importance is the confounding effect of assortative mating.

These are the kind of limitations that have prevented the scientific community from establishing cause and effect relationship based on retrospective data analysis.

Your question is valid, how will we know if dads don’t get to try? The scientific answer to that would be to randomly assign custody to moms and dads in equal numbers and then observe the kids over next few years. But that would not be the ethical answer. The next best thing would be to collect more data about the characteristics of the dads and moms before jumping to conclusions.

P.S: Has this study been published yet? I have just gotten the abstract, not the full paper. It was presented earlier this yearin San Francisco, I wonder what sociology journal did they eventually publish in.

Aliya

The study that I mentioned controlled for effects due to ``Dads who go missing after making a woman pregnant``

The study mentions that new step fathers did not improve child environment significantly (as there is competition for the mother`s affections between step father and the child), it had an insignificant postive impact.

I do appreciate that a variety of factors are at play, however, I am not inclined to throw out the baby with the bath water. There are certain facts that do point to the role of fathers in their children upbringing. Since, there has been tremendous support for mothers to raise children, it would be worth the while of the community to force the dad`s also to play their role in the upbringing of the children also. Commitment of child support is generally just treated as a tax (compulsory payments) but devoting time to the upbringing process and the interaction has and would bring positive impacts to the children.

Now in Islam the custody is automatically thrust upon the father, while under the current western laws the father has to prove the mother incapable to gain custody (biased towards mothers).

So any study would automatically be biased. The conditions would only be created when fathers have the same probability of getting the custody of the child as the mother to actually get unbiased results. How would we create those conditions other than letting fathers get custody equal number of times as the mothers (or joint custody as is being legislated in Canada).

Aamina Ahmed

My apologies for sounding dogmatic about the laws in Islam. However, I would like to put forth the following Ayats from the Quran.

Translation: Pickthall

[al-Baqarah 2:233.5] Mothers shall suckle their children for two whole years; (that is) for those who wish to complete the suckling. The duty of feeding and clothing nursing mothers in a seemly manner is upon the father of the child. No-one should be charged beyond his capacity. A mother should not be made to suffer because of her child, nor should he to whom the child is born (be made to suffer) because of his child. And on the (father`s) heir is incumbent the like of that (which was incumbent on the father). If they desire to wean the child by mutual consent and (after) consultation, it is no sin for them; and if ye wish to give your children out to nurse, it is no sin for you, provide that ye pay what is due from you in kindness. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is Seer of what ye do.

Translation: Yusufali

[al-Baqarah 2:233] The mothers shall give such to their offspring for two whole years, if the father desires to complete the term. But he shall bear the cost of their food and clothing on equitable terms. No soul shall have a burden laid on it greater than it can bear. No mother shall be Treated unfairly on account of her child. Nor father on account of his child, an heir shall be chargeable in the same way. If they both decide on weaning, by mutual consent, and after due consultation, there is no blame on them. If ye decide on a foster-mother for your offspring, there is no blame on you, provided ye pay (the mother) what ye offered, on equitable terms. But fear God and know that God sees well what ye do.

Translation: Shakir

[al-Baqarah 2:233] And the mothers should suckle their children for two whole years for him who desires to make complete the time of suckling; and their
maintenance and their clothing must be-- borne by the father according to usage; no soul shall have imposed upon it a duty but to the extent of its capacity; neither shall a mother be made to suffer harm on account of her child, nor a father on account of his child, and a similar duty (devolves) on the (father`s) heir, but if both
desire weaning by mutual consent and counsel, there is no blame on them, and if you wish to engage a wet-nurse for your children, there is no blame on you so long as you pay what you promised for according to usage; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah and know that Allah sees what you do.

Source:http://goon.stg.brown.edu/quran_browser/pqeasy.shtml

The first reform to have the full effect of state-sponsored law, however, was the Ottoman Law of Family Rights of 1917, a code whose susequent career is long and checkered.

Members of the EFU mobilized Islamic reformist arguments to press with some success for establishing a minimum marriage age and the modest extension of a mother`s rights of child custody, but agitation for reform of laws governing divorce and polygyny did not result in any significant reforms.

Source: http://sfswww.georgetown.edu/sfs/programs/ccas/asj/tucker.htm

A very relevant issue. Thanks for bringing it up.
I do disagree with you on quite a few points, mainly on the conclusions you derived from the study:

First, this study reports that absence of fathers is ASSOCIATED with greater legal problems with the boys, it does NOT show cause and effect relationship( as the author implies towards the end). Dads who go missing after making a woman pregnant are likely to have many other attributes also, besides just being absent, e.g antisocial personality ( an extremely common disorder amongst prison population) is transmitted genetically. That MAY also explain why the kids who were staying with the dads, did better.

In other words, this study design is useful in many ways, but CAN NOT be used to establish that dad`s absence caused one thing or the other because of more than one factor at work.


Second, I recall that the study also mentioned ( not mentioned in the article) that remarriage/ getting back together didn`t help, so there are likely to be other factors at work besides just the dad being present or absent.

In short, this study points to what is common knowledge to those of us who`ve worked in the inner cities of U.S.A, i.e kids with absent fathers get into a lot of trouble as do black and poor kids. But that doesn`t mean that being black causes crime, it means only that due to a variety of factors (social, familial etc.) these kids are more likely (statistically speaking) to find themselves in legal trouble.

Ideally the child should go to the better parent (mother or father), but that is very difficult to determine in a custody battle.

As for the religious laws of custody, I don`t know anything beyond the very basic, i.e Quran/Bible has not decided that one way or the other. Perhaps someone with a knowledge of Hadith can shed light.

Please be careful when claiming that something is an Islamic law:

``As under Islam, in the event of a divorce children are awarded to the father once he/she attains the age of 2.``

Though this is a common practice in certain countries, it is by no means a universal Islamic law. Traditionally, when a couple divorced, custody of the children was awarded to the mother (with the father being given visitation rights) until the children reached the ``age of discernment``. At that time, the children would go to court and choose which parent they wanted to live with (in front of the qadi.) The five schools of Islamic law differ somewhat in their opinions on custody but if one studies cases tried under the Ottoman empire (easier to study because good records available and translated), one finds the above pattern to be a standard. Mothers would be awarded custody but fathers were responsible for child support.

The problem of crime is more complex than that. Not to de-emphasise the `absence of father` in the family as one of the important reasons, I would respectfully disagree that that may be the main reason for increase in crime. Republicans love to point out such studies to distract people from the growing disparities between the rich and the poor. They don`t want to hear that Sweden has far fewer crimes even though they have similar proportion of single mothers raising families.

Don`t get me wrong. I think its morally wrong to deprive a child of the love of both parents. But, and its big BUT, Sweden has one of the most equitable economies in the world. People say its a socialist economy. I think if socialist economy can produce results like that, who needs capitalism?

In other words, the problem of crime is not caused just by the broken family phenomenon, the lack of opportunities, and the absence of hope for a better future, more than anything, causes a a person to react violently in frustration. Add to that mix the lack of social pressure in a typical poverty-ridden slum and you have got yourself plenty of angry young men mad at the society and nothing to lose.

We must understand the magnitude of the problem by realizing that, when I say lack of opportunity, I mean the absence of a proper conducive environment and lack of incentives faced by kids in inner city schools. I invite you to visit any inner city school in any major city of the US and tell me honestly if you can get proper education there.

These schools are mostly rundown buildings saffed with mostly incapable teachers who couldn`t find a spot in a better school. The textbooks, if available, may be decades old. Seldom there are any extra-curricular activities, due to lack of funds mostly, that may give these kids something to do in their spare time. Uncle Sam spends more than $270 billion on defense, and billions more on pork barrel projects. A fraction of this money could cut the crime rate drastically. I mean, do we really need a $50 billion space station so we can study the effects of weightlessness on rats?

Yes we need a father to discipline a child. But what can a father do when his kids ask him about why doesn`t the Santa comes to their house? Why can`t they have proper heating in the winter and eat turkey on thanksgiving? I mean you may think I`m exaggerating but believe it or not about 20 million American children go to bed hungry. And Mr. Gingrich and his collegues wanted to cut the school breakfast program for little children. And then they complain about crime. Give me friggin` a break!

Rehan.