Beena Sarwar February 5, 1999
#1 Posted by afrasiyab on February 6, 1999 7:13:06 am
This is truly pathetic. Wish the Jang group best of luck. Maybe Chowk as a publication forum in its own right can run a kind of series of court reports just like the Mofeez Murtaza cricket test report on the proceedings of the tribunals and/or courts in this matter.
#2 Posted by aabutt on February 6, 1999 12:09:51 pm
Freedom of press is obviously a basic and fundamental right of a society, and it has often been trampled over in Pakistan. While such abuse should never happen, there is a slight difference this time - there is an open fight now, rather than unceremonius and behind the curtain kick-outs as in previous regimes. Not enough, I say, but nonetheless a start!
#3 Posted by ferozk on February 6, 1999 4:23:45 pm
Re: Beena Sarwar
My deep felt thanks for penning this article which so astutely crystalized the issues of freedom of press and the government press relations in Pakistan.
A free and robust press is the last line of defense for a democratic Pakistan. The battle being waged, by the Jang group, against the government of Pakistan, is a crucial battle which will determine the future of Pakistani polity for years to come. In every society, considered free, there are four pillars of democracy; an independent judicary, a legislative branch, an executive and a free press. These four institutions form the bedrock of support upon which a democractic society exists and democracy can not exist without one, but needs all four pillars to thrive.
In my article, The Gentleman Must Go, and in the interact replies section I questioned the policies of the present government and I was taken to task, by some respondents, for suggesting that Nawaz Sharif`s government was not democratic. I have repeatedly said, and I will say again, that the present government in Pakistan is not democratic. The Nawaz Sharif`s government is democractic in name only and it is using the fascade of democracy, in Pakistan, to acculmate dictorial powers. Every insitutional crisis in Pakistan in the last eighteen months, was engineered by this government to strenghten its strangle hold on the reins of political power in Pakistan.
Nawaz Sharif monopolizes the executive branch of the government. His party dominates the legislative branch as a personal fiefdom and he has politically humbled the judicary to his will. In the crisis over the COAS Gen. Karamat`s comments to the Naval War College, in Lahore, he has marginalized the role of the military in Pakistan and for the moment gained a tactical victory over the men in khaki. Having weakened those insitutions, he has now turned towards the press and is seeking to silence the fourth estate of democracy in Pakistan; a free press.
As I have written so many times and argued so often in this forum, ``democratically elected government`` with ``the biggest mandate ever``, as the Nawaz Sharif goverment charterizes itself, is not and should not be considered a de jure yard stick with which to measure democracy in Pakistan. A true reflection of a democratic country, or a political party claiming to be one, does not rest on the basis of electroal accounting at the ballot box. The true measure of a democracy lies in the consent of the governed to bless a sense of legitimacy on the government which presides over a people or a society.
Governments, in a democratic society, derive their legitimacy to rule through the consent of the people and as long as people give it their consent, it remains the legitimate government of the people. However once the government loses its sense of legitimacy, as with the Nawaz Sharif`s government, it ceases to be a democratic government, because it is no longer reflective of the will of the people, an idea which it is supposed to represent through its mandate; a mandate given by the people.
Governments in a democratic society do not gain their mandates, to rule, through elections, but through the perceptions of the governed. Once a government loses its legitimacy in the eyes of the people, regardless, of its electoral mandate, it loses its rightful claim and hence, its validity to rule over them. A true and honest representation of democracy is not measured in votes, but rather in the ability of the people to confer a sense of legitimacy upon their government. The instance a people consider their government to be non de jure and not represtative of their needs, the government ceases to be democratic, because it is no longer a legitimate government in the eyes of the people and it no longer enjoys the consent of the governed.
A democratically elected government, which loses the consent of the people and still rules without renewing or re-establishing that consent, by holding elections or seeking a new mandate, becomes, and is, a trynny by any other description.
This is the crucial distinction which we, Pakistanis, have to realize that just, because a government was popularly elected, does not mean it should be considered democratic. The Nawaz Sharif government by subverting the other political insitutions in the country and by using its popular mandate to deny popular representation in the government, has lost its legitimacy in the eyes of the Pakistani people.
The people of Pakistan no longer believe the government`s case against the Jang newspapers, because Pakistanis do not trust their own government`s word and that is an ultimate loss of popular representative mandate in a democractic society. The fact that the present government has been ignoring this manifestion of the public`s attitude and continues to rule only shows its utter arrogance, contempt and disdain for democracy, which it claims to champion, in Pakistan.
My deep felt thanks for penning this article which so astutely crystalized the issues of freedom of press and the government press relations in Pakistan.
A free and robust press is the last line of defense for a democratic Pakistan. The battle being waged, by the Jang group, against the government of Pakistan, is a crucial battle which will determine the future of Pakistani polity for years to come. In every society, considered free, there are four pillars of democracy; an independent judicary, a legislative branch, an executive and a free press. These four institutions form the bedrock of support upon which a democractic society exists and democracy can not exist without one, but needs all four pillars to thrive.
In my article, The Gentleman Must Go, and in the interact replies section I questioned the policies of the present government and I was taken to task, by some respondents, for suggesting that Nawaz Sharif`s government was not democratic. I have repeatedly said, and I will say again, that the present government in Pakistan is not democratic. The Nawaz Sharif`s government is democractic in name only and it is using the fascade of democracy, in Pakistan, to acculmate dictorial powers. Every insitutional crisis in Pakistan in the last eighteen months, was engineered by this government to strenghten its strangle hold on the reins of political power in Pakistan.
Nawaz Sharif monopolizes the executive branch of the government. His party dominates the legislative branch as a personal fiefdom and he has politically humbled the judicary to his will. In the crisis over the COAS Gen. Karamat`s comments to the Naval War College, in Lahore, he has marginalized the role of the military in Pakistan and for the moment gained a tactical victory over the men in khaki. Having weakened those insitutions, he has now turned towards the press and is seeking to silence the fourth estate of democracy in Pakistan; a free press.
As I have written so many times and argued so often in this forum, ``democratically elected government`` with ``the biggest mandate ever``, as the Nawaz Sharif goverment charterizes itself, is not and should not be considered a de jure yard stick with which to measure democracy in Pakistan. A true reflection of a democratic country, or a political party claiming to be one, does not rest on the basis of electroal accounting at the ballot box. The true measure of a democracy lies in the consent of the governed to bless a sense of legitimacy on the government which presides over a people or a society.
Governments, in a democratic society, derive their legitimacy to rule through the consent of the people and as long as people give it their consent, it remains the legitimate government of the people. However once the government loses its sense of legitimacy, as with the Nawaz Sharif`s government, it ceases to be a democratic government, because it is no longer reflective of the will of the people, an idea which it is supposed to represent through its mandate; a mandate given by the people.
Governments in a democratic society do not gain their mandates, to rule, through elections, but through the perceptions of the governed. Once a government loses its legitimacy in the eyes of the people, regardless, of its electoral mandate, it loses its rightful claim and hence, its validity to rule over them. A true and honest representation of democracy is not measured in votes, but rather in the ability of the people to confer a sense of legitimacy upon their government. The instance a people consider their government to be non de jure and not represtative of their needs, the government ceases to be democratic, because it is no longer a legitimate government in the eyes of the people and it no longer enjoys the consent of the governed.
A democratically elected government, which loses the consent of the people and still rules without renewing or re-establishing that consent, by holding elections or seeking a new mandate, becomes, and is, a trynny by any other description.
This is the crucial distinction which we, Pakistanis, have to realize that just, because a government was popularly elected, does not mean it should be considered democratic. The Nawaz Sharif government by subverting the other political insitutions in the country and by using its popular mandate to deny popular representation in the government, has lost its legitimacy in the eyes of the Pakistani people.
The people of Pakistan no longer believe the government`s case against the Jang newspapers, because Pakistanis do not trust their own government`s word and that is an ultimate loss of popular representative mandate in a democractic society. The fact that the present government has been ignoring this manifestion of the public`s attitude and continues to rule only shows its utter arrogance, contempt and disdain for democracy, which it claims to champion, in Pakistan.
#4 Posted by temporal on February 6, 1999 11:19:38 pm
Bina:
Aazaadi-e-sahafat---freedon of the press was and is non-existent in the Pakistani context. Each cow sings to its own tunes. Pre-emptorily, allow me to say-- exceptions excepted. But I will agree with you to the extent that the badmaash sharif should not rock the last vestiges of status quo, or the house of cards might really fall down!
Feroze:
Yaar, of the four holy pillars you mention three are cancerous to begin with. Is it worth crying over the last one? Is it not better that this house of cards crumbles so that out of the ashes, phoenix like, something more humane rises?
It is amazing how this badmaash is co-opting the Army into the civilan domain-----``lo ji! hum to khataiN haiN, tum bhi looto!``
(and finally, pls., pls. be brief)
regards
Aazaadi-e-sahafat---freedon of the press was and is non-existent in the Pakistani context. Each cow sings to its own tunes. Pre-emptorily, allow me to say-- exceptions excepted. But I will agree with you to the extent that the badmaash sharif should not rock the last vestiges of status quo, or the house of cards might really fall down!
Feroze:
Yaar, of the four holy pillars you mention three are cancerous to begin with. Is it worth crying over the last one? Is it not better that this house of cards crumbles so that out of the ashes, phoenix like, something more humane rises?
It is amazing how this badmaash is co-opting the Army into the civilan domain-----``lo ji! hum to khataiN haiN, tum bhi looto!``
(and finally, pls., pls. be brief)
regards
#5 Posted by maliani on February 7, 1999 2:19:43 am
What Saif said -- verbatim excerpts
By our correspondent
KARACHI: Following is the translation of verbatim some excerpts (in Urdu) from Ehtesab Bureau Chief Senator Saifur Rehman`s conversation with
Editor-in-Chief Jang Group Mir Shakilur Rehman (MSR).
Saif: .... They give an impression that the government is being toppled. It will be sent
home and what it does happens to be wrong. We will first list the A category people,
among them tops Maleeha Lodhi Sahiba and then we feel strongly about Kamila Hayat.
Mir Shakilur Rehman: A category means they should not be there, that they should be removed. Saif: They should not be where they are at the present positions. According to our information from among the 14 journalists we pinpointed, 10 are in A category. ...
four have been left now in A category. To me, there are two more important. One is Maleeha Lodhi Sahiba and we wish Hasan Mussana as her replacement, but Mushahid Sahib wanted Anwar Khalil or Irfan Ghazi. These are three persons. You can chose from among the three. Any of them will be OK.
No telephonic survey will be conducted on controversial political issues.
Army will not be invited...etc. Sharif family will not be called into question.
Somewhere, positive support is needed. Governor`s rule is there, you like or dislike it, but
you have to support it.
Shariah issue is dear to PM. It has to be supported. Support on economic issues is required. What has happened was done due to difficulties and not for fun. Ten times we have tried to solve the problem, but we have to choose this path. If we see any positive
change in your attitude, we will settle your problems in a positive manner. Which necessary things you need, tell us, we will talk to PM and get permission from him immediately.
Shami: He has promised that the income tax matters which are effecting the whole industry or may effect it will be taken back. The instructions given to the customs staff
about you will also be withdrawn. Your accounts will be unfrozen. Mir Shakilur Rehman: Certainly, I do not accept. I have already requested you not to force me to do such acts which make me do a wrong. Regarding the other thing, I cannot
do as wished.
Saif: You have taken a position that we cannot reconcile with. Brother try to solve the
issue!
MSR: For your information, the tribunal has decided in our favour on
these tax issues.
All accounts have been unfrozen and customs has been cleared.
Saif: If this meeting had been held yesterday, I would have sent a
message today to the
tribunal about what it should decide ... even his (judge of tribunal)
father could not have
changed this. I have not called him (the judge) as we are heading
towards a compromise. If we have taken a lenient view and shown sympathy, you
should not
attribute it to him (chairman of tribunal).
He is only the chairman of the tribunal. We tackle hundreds of other
things too. Do not
say that we did not do this favour you have won without us. All the
cases
would have to
come to this tribunal and naturally it has to decide according to the
signal of the
government. Yesterday, settlement was reached. It was to be conveyed to
it. We
waited till the evening and did not give signal and naturally if we do
not give a signal to
the tribunal, it gives relief. But relief could be reversed tomorrow.
The department to
whom the case is sent for review, will re-establish the case and say we
do not accept
your logical reasoning and hence the stay will be vacated. You are happy
for the time
being....
How many staff do you have?
MSR: I do not know, the figure runs in thousands.
Saif: They are 4000. From them, there are only 14 (whose removal is
being
asked for).
14 out of 4000 do not even count. Eight should be sidetracked to please
Mian Sahib.
Saif: Look, I tell you clearly. We have nothing against anybody from your
institution.
We are using IB and ISI against you and your senior staff. Now you shift
them and if
you are unable to do so, tell me, I have a solution for them.
January 31, 1999
The News International PakistanYY
By our correspondent
KARACHI: Following is the translation of verbatim some excerpts (in Urdu) from Ehtesab Bureau Chief Senator Saifur Rehman`s conversation with
Editor-in-Chief Jang Group Mir Shakilur Rehman (MSR).
Saif: .... They give an impression that the government is being toppled. It will be sent
home and what it does happens to be wrong. We will first list the A category people,
among them tops Maleeha Lodhi Sahiba and then we feel strongly about Kamila Hayat.
Mir Shakilur Rehman: A category means they should not be there, that they should be removed. Saif: They should not be where they are at the present positions. According to our information from among the 14 journalists we pinpointed, 10 are in A category. ...
four have been left now in A category. To me, there are two more important. One is Maleeha Lodhi Sahiba and we wish Hasan Mussana as her replacement, but Mushahid Sahib wanted Anwar Khalil or Irfan Ghazi. These are three persons. You can chose from among the three. Any of them will be OK.
No telephonic survey will be conducted on controversial political issues.
Army will not be invited...etc. Sharif family will not be called into question.
Somewhere, positive support is needed. Governor`s rule is there, you like or dislike it, but
you have to support it.
Shariah issue is dear to PM. It has to be supported. Support on economic issues is required. What has happened was done due to difficulties and not for fun. Ten times we have tried to solve the problem, but we have to choose this path. If we see any positive
change in your attitude, we will settle your problems in a positive manner. Which necessary things you need, tell us, we will talk to PM and get permission from him immediately.
Shami: He has promised that the income tax matters which are effecting the whole industry or may effect it will be taken back. The instructions given to the customs staff
about you will also be withdrawn. Your accounts will be unfrozen. Mir Shakilur Rehman: Certainly, I do not accept. I have already requested you not to force me to do such acts which make me do a wrong. Regarding the other thing, I cannot
do as wished.
Saif: You have taken a position that we cannot reconcile with. Brother try to solve the
issue!
MSR: For your information, the tribunal has decided in our favour on
these tax issues.
All accounts have been unfrozen and customs has been cleared.
Saif: If this meeting had been held yesterday, I would have sent a
message today to the
tribunal about what it should decide ... even his (judge of tribunal)
father could not have
changed this. I have not called him (the judge) as we are heading
towards a compromise. If we have taken a lenient view and shown sympathy, you
should not
attribute it to him (chairman of tribunal).
He is only the chairman of the tribunal. We tackle hundreds of other
things too. Do not
say that we did not do this favour you have won without us. All the
cases
would have to
come to this tribunal and naturally it has to decide according to the
signal of the
government. Yesterday, settlement was reached. It was to be conveyed to
it. We
waited till the evening and did not give signal and naturally if we do
not give a signal to
the tribunal, it gives relief. But relief could be reversed tomorrow.
The department to
whom the case is sent for review, will re-establish the case and say we
do not accept
your logical reasoning and hence the stay will be vacated. You are happy
for the time
being....
How many staff do you have?
MSR: I do not know, the figure runs in thousands.
Saif: They are 4000. From them, there are only 14 (whose removal is
being
asked for).
14 out of 4000 do not even count. Eight should be sidetracked to please
Mian Sahib.
Saif: Look, I tell you clearly. We have nothing against anybody from your
institution.
We are using IB and ISI against you and your senior staff. Now you shift
them and if
you are unable to do so, tell me, I have a solution for them.
January 31, 1999
The News International PakistanYY
#6 Posted by maliani on February 7, 1999 5:54:05 pm
BTW, there will be a demonstration against the government`s campaign to muzzle the press. The demonstration has been called by the different
journalists unions.
The collection point is Abpara in Islamabad at 2 a.m. Anyone living in Islamabad should join the effort.
journalists unions.
The collection point is Abpara in Islamabad at 2 a.m. Anyone living in Islamabad should join the effort.
#7 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on February 8, 1999 1:18:36 am
If the situation for the Press is bad now, one
can only wonder what is in store for the media
IF the 15th. Amendment Passes?
Ras
#8 Posted by Amin Saleh on February 8, 1999 9:37:36 am
I think Bina has unleashed an emotional issue here rather than giving a more unbiased and rational view of things.
1) Just because Sharif paid only Rs. 477 in the last year has no relevance with what Jang has to pay. The culprit is the Tax Laws. The Tax Laws currently do not require any taxes to be paid on agricultural income. So if Benazir Bhutto earns Rs. 1 crore from her farms and fields she if free to buy BMWs or horses without anybody being able to say anything. The same goes for Sharif. All he has to do is to pay more money for his raw material from his agricultural lands and effectively does not have to pay any income taxes.
If we are really interested in getting everyone to pay their fair share of taxes then lets follow the frameworks developed by the west. They have AMT (Alternate Minimum Tax). This allows the tax authorities to tax an individual on income that is otherwise sheltered from income tax (as in the case of Pakistan - agricultural taxes and income earned by overseas Pakistanis). A better way would be to include the income completely in the framework of taxes.
I think we as the general population are outraged at the shenanigans of the leaders rather than understanding how they manipulate the law (by working in its bounds). The same way Clinton plays with words about sex and how he did not commit perjury.
Whether the laws are applied selectively or across the board, I believe this is a good start. For it will enable people to rethink their actions. Sharif should remember that his government may last only for 5 years and if so his tax returns may be opened by the next government (reassessments may be done up to 7 years). Also given what was discovered from the audio cassettes and the fact that Sharif neither fired his minister nor did the minister resign should make him lose votes in the next elections. Just as Benazir Bhutto lost votes when conflict of interest was discovered in the Islamabad Stock Exchange scandal (implicating her Finance Minister who refused to resign).
2) I found this statement contradictory, that is,
quote:
We don`t need government permission,`` states Imran Aslam. ``Geo is operated by an off-shore company.``
and
What Geo does need to run, however, is money. Lots of it. And by hitting the Jang Group`s `milch cow`, the government has ensured that the Group is too tied up running pillar to post for newsprint and to unfreeze its bank accounts to even think about moving ahead with the project.
unquote
According to the laws of Pakistan, you need permission of the State Bank of Pakistan to buy foreign exchange to make a direct foreign investment. If the cash flows of the local Jang operations has to provide the cash flows for Geo then there is no way this can be done either with the permission of the SBP or by illegal transfer of funds by purchase in the open market.
If the legal funds are available outside Pakistan then the current problems would or should not affect Geo`s status.
3)``Everyone sells newsprint, but it just so happens that the Jang Group has not been doing this, at least in recent years,`` admits a senior officer. I am surprised that this comment has been taken positively rather than being taken as an acknowledgment of committing a crime. How can Jang justify not being investigated when they themselves acknowledge that they had been involved in an illegal activity in the past.
In my opinion, this investigation has nothing to do with muzzling the press instead it is there to stamp out illegal activity. Furthermore, it seems that the Government seems to be the biggest advertiser in Pakistan and all newspapers are at its mercy. Where in the developed countries this is the case. If these newspapers really want to be independent they should throw off this dependence. Finally, I don`t seem to understand why the population does not object to its tax rupees being spent on advertising.
1) Just because Sharif paid only Rs. 477 in the last year has no relevance with what Jang has to pay. The culprit is the Tax Laws. The Tax Laws currently do not require any taxes to be paid on agricultural income. So if Benazir Bhutto earns Rs. 1 crore from her farms and fields she if free to buy BMWs or horses without anybody being able to say anything. The same goes for Sharif. All he has to do is to pay more money for his raw material from his agricultural lands and effectively does not have to pay any income taxes.
If we are really interested in getting everyone to pay their fair share of taxes then lets follow the frameworks developed by the west. They have AMT (Alternate Minimum Tax). This allows the tax authorities to tax an individual on income that is otherwise sheltered from income tax (as in the case of Pakistan - agricultural taxes and income earned by overseas Pakistanis). A better way would be to include the income completely in the framework of taxes.
I think we as the general population are outraged at the shenanigans of the leaders rather than understanding how they manipulate the law (by working in its bounds). The same way Clinton plays with words about sex and how he did not commit perjury.
Whether the laws are applied selectively or across the board, I believe this is a good start. For it will enable people to rethink their actions. Sharif should remember that his government may last only for 5 years and if so his tax returns may be opened by the next government (reassessments may be done up to 7 years). Also given what was discovered from the audio cassettes and the fact that Sharif neither fired his minister nor did the minister resign should make him lose votes in the next elections. Just as Benazir Bhutto lost votes when conflict of interest was discovered in the Islamabad Stock Exchange scandal (implicating her Finance Minister who refused to resign).
2) I found this statement contradictory, that is,
quote:
We don`t need government permission,`` states Imran Aslam. ``Geo is operated by an off-shore company.``
and
What Geo does need to run, however, is money. Lots of it. And by hitting the Jang Group`s `milch cow`, the government has ensured that the Group is too tied up running pillar to post for newsprint and to unfreeze its bank accounts to even think about moving ahead with the project.
unquote
According to the laws of Pakistan, you need permission of the State Bank of Pakistan to buy foreign exchange to make a direct foreign investment. If the cash flows of the local Jang operations has to provide the cash flows for Geo then there is no way this can be done either with the permission of the SBP or by illegal transfer of funds by purchase in the open market.
If the legal funds are available outside Pakistan then the current problems would or should not affect Geo`s status.
3)``Everyone sells newsprint, but it just so happens that the Jang Group has not been doing this, at least in recent years,`` admits a senior officer. I am surprised that this comment has been taken positively rather than being taken as an acknowledgment of committing a crime. How can Jang justify not being investigated when they themselves acknowledge that they had been involved in an illegal activity in the past.
In my opinion, this investigation has nothing to do with muzzling the press instead it is there to stamp out illegal activity. Furthermore, it seems that the Government seems to be the biggest advertiser in Pakistan and all newspapers are at its mercy. Where in the developed countries this is the case. If these newspapers really want to be independent they should throw off this dependence. Finally, I don`t seem to understand why the population does not object to its tax rupees being spent on advertising.
#9 Posted by Amin Saleh on February 8, 1999 9:43:18 am
My apologies. I should have spelt Bina as Beena.
and read
According to the laws of Pakistan, ... cash flows for Geo then there is no way this can be done
* *except * * either with the permission of the SBP or by illegal transfer of funds by purchase in the open market.
and read
According to the laws of Pakistan, ... cash flows for Geo then there is no way this can be done
* *except * * either with the permission of the SBP or by illegal transfer of funds by purchase in the open market.
#10 Posted by ferozk on February 8, 1999 4:59:43 pm
Re: Temporal post # 4
Concerning the four holy pillars of democracy and allowing to them crumble, I am a bit uneasy about such an outcome. I fully understand that the system, as it exists presently, can not survive, but my concern is what will replace it. It is the replacement or a back up or lack thereof, to the present situation in Pakistan which scares me.
The best policy would be, as you suggested, to let this moribund corpus politica of Pakistan die in hopes of a newer and better resurrection. Unless there is something to fill the vacuum left by this demise, it would be akin to opening a Pandora`s box. If that is the only option, then let us prepare for it and lets make the necessary arrangements, but lets not deal with the aftermath of a political insitutional collapse in Pakistan on an ad hoc basis.
My friend, you have raised a point which, though I tend to lean towards, still unnerves me and causes me a great deal of discomfort. My reference to the four estates of democracy was to highlight the requirements for its successful implementation and I realize that they are all deceased in Pakistan, but still that is better than nothing. What you are suggesting is nothing less than a complete reconsitution of the Pakistani state and that, my friend, is something to you do not venture into unless you are prepared to reap the whirlwind which will surely arise as a result.
Re: Amin Saleh
This has nothing to do with the issue of taxes, though that is an offical caus belli of the government`s actions against the Jang group. Lets leave aside all the arguments for insitutional independence in Pakistan for a moment. This crisis has to do with the inability of the present government to tolerate dissent against its policies and its attempts to curb any voice which preaches a different mantra than its own.
The simple matter of truth is that Mian Nawaz Sharif does not take kindly to critism of himself, nor of his policies. The issue of unpaid taxes or duty on the newsprint paper is a smoke screen to mask the real intentions of the government which is to quell all opposition to its rule. A basic right of a democratic society is the right, the obligation, to question its officals and ask that they justify their actions to the people. Nawaz Sharif is systemically dismantling that right through various ploys and soon there will no opposition to his policies, but only Fuhrer ordungs (leader`s orders) which will instruct the Pakistani people what to belief.
If not by his words, but by his deeds, Nawaz Sharif is paraphrasing the words of the French King Louis XIV: l`etat est mort. L`etat est moi!
Concerning the four holy pillars of democracy and allowing to them crumble, I am a bit uneasy about such an outcome. I fully understand that the system, as it exists presently, can not survive, but my concern is what will replace it. It is the replacement or a back up or lack thereof, to the present situation in Pakistan which scares me.
The best policy would be, as you suggested, to let this moribund corpus politica of Pakistan die in hopes of a newer and better resurrection. Unless there is something to fill the vacuum left by this demise, it would be akin to opening a Pandora`s box. If that is the only option, then let us prepare for it and lets make the necessary arrangements, but lets not deal with the aftermath of a political insitutional collapse in Pakistan on an ad hoc basis.
My friend, you have raised a point which, though I tend to lean towards, still unnerves me and causes me a great deal of discomfort. My reference to the four estates of democracy was to highlight the requirements for its successful implementation and I realize that they are all deceased in Pakistan, but still that is better than nothing. What you are suggesting is nothing less than a complete reconsitution of the Pakistani state and that, my friend, is something to you do not venture into unless you are prepared to reap the whirlwind which will surely arise as a result.
Re: Amin Saleh
This has nothing to do with the issue of taxes, though that is an offical caus belli of the government`s actions against the Jang group. Lets leave aside all the arguments for insitutional independence in Pakistan for a moment. This crisis has to do with the inability of the present government to tolerate dissent against its policies and its attempts to curb any voice which preaches a different mantra than its own.
The simple matter of truth is that Mian Nawaz Sharif does not take kindly to critism of himself, nor of his policies. The issue of unpaid taxes or duty on the newsprint paper is a smoke screen to mask the real intentions of the government which is to quell all opposition to its rule. A basic right of a democratic society is the right, the obligation, to question its officals and ask that they justify their actions to the people. Nawaz Sharif is systemically dismantling that right through various ploys and soon there will no opposition to his policies, but only Fuhrer ordungs (leader`s orders) which will instruct the Pakistani people what to belief.
If not by his words, but by his deeds, Nawaz Sharif is paraphrasing the words of the French King Louis XIV: l`etat est mort. L`etat est moi!
#11 Posted by temporal on February 8, 1999 7:21:34 pm
Feroz:
Desperate measures for desperate times. Chaos management? Nah---let the chips fall----Ordain a Green Line (a la Beirut)--- not a physical one--but more of a spirituo-religio one. Let them/us hammer out the issues----ghazi or shaheed-- to the victor the spoils! Disagree---vaccum exists not in body politic. Never has. Sorry for the dark cryptic tone.
On a saner note: O God, where art thou? Never in the conflict of human crisis have so many needed your intervention to be saved from so few (am chomping on my Churchill cigar). The brave Chowkies who do not believe in the magic of God, please disregard.
cryptically,
Desperate measures for desperate times. Chaos management? Nah---let the chips fall----Ordain a Green Line (a la Beirut)--- not a physical one--but more of a spirituo-religio one. Let them/us hammer out the issues----ghazi or shaheed-- to the victor the spoils! Disagree---vaccum exists not in body politic. Never has. Sorry for the dark cryptic tone.
On a saner note: O God, where art thou? Never in the conflict of human crisis have so many needed your intervention to be saved from so few (am chomping on my Churchill cigar). The brave Chowkies who do not believe in the magic of God, please disregard.
cryptically,
#12 Posted by ferozk on February 8, 1999 11:16:30 pm
Re: Temporal post # 14
Hey old buddy, I think you need to get out of your house condo apartment more often!!! :)
That was quite a Delphic post! Your reasoning sounded, in a strange way, Darwinian and Hobbesian and made perfect sense! Which is why I am getting a little concerned! I still disagree with you; I am leary to walk down the path you seem to be pointing towards. A civil war, along politico-religious lines, in Pakistan is the last thing the country needs right now. Like Shakespear`s Mark Anthony if you unleash the dogs of war, are you confident enough to re-leash them again?
Temporal, think about what you are suggesting. Pakistan needs to learn to resolve its problems through insitutional mechanisms, even though they are fatally flawed, and not by resorting to a blood bath.
Yaar, please tell me you are joking about the idea of a la Beruit?
On the topic of God. It seems that God has the good sense to stay away from this mess! Just out of curisiousity, what would happen if you took away God from the politics of Pakistan?
Hey old buddy, I think you need to get out of your house condo apartment more often!!! :)
That was quite a Delphic post! Your reasoning sounded, in a strange way, Darwinian and Hobbesian and made perfect sense! Which is why I am getting a little concerned! I still disagree with you; I am leary to walk down the path you seem to be pointing towards. A civil war, along politico-religious lines, in Pakistan is the last thing the country needs right now. Like Shakespear`s Mark Anthony if you unleash the dogs of war, are you confident enough to re-leash them again?
Temporal, think about what you are suggesting. Pakistan needs to learn to resolve its problems through insitutional mechanisms, even though they are fatally flawed, and not by resorting to a blood bath.
Yaar, please tell me you are joking about the idea of a la Beruit?
On the topic of God. It seems that God has the good sense to stay away from this mess! Just out of curisiousity, what would happen if you took away God from the politics of Pakistan?
#13 Posted by afrasiyab on February 9, 1999 12:07:47 am
Feroze and Temporal:
Looks like I am going to have to break you kids up again. What is the matter with the two of you.
Get over yourselves already.;);)
Now, as far as the situation with the press is concerned, for Jang, trust me, it is karma comming back and bitting them where they actually needed to be jawed 10 years ago. All that shameless shoelicking did not earn them any credit for keeps, I guess.
Do you remember their articles during Zia and then Benazir. It was disgusting to see their flip flops. I have not read a Jang publication since 1992 so maybe they have changed but in any case, as far as wishing for a Beirut is concerned, you have to realize that the Big Brothers of this world need to have some kind of order in Pakistan because of the nukes. They would not want them falling into the wrong hands, you know, with the Talibans or for that matter, even Iran so close by in case of a civil war.
Also, temporal bhai, please do continue with your ideas about the Canadian mosaic. You seem to be defending it and I kinda like that.
Looks like I am going to have to break you kids up again. What is the matter with the two of you.
Get over yourselves already.;);)
Now, as far as the situation with the press is concerned, for Jang, trust me, it is karma comming back and bitting them where they actually needed to be jawed 10 years ago. All that shameless shoelicking did not earn them any credit for keeps, I guess.
Do you remember their articles during Zia and then Benazir. It was disgusting to see their flip flops. I have not read a Jang publication since 1992 so maybe they have changed but in any case, as far as wishing for a Beirut is concerned, you have to realize that the Big Brothers of this world need to have some kind of order in Pakistan because of the nukes. They would not want them falling into the wrong hands, you know, with the Talibans or for that matter, even Iran so close by in case of a civil war.
Also, temporal bhai, please do continue with your ideas about the Canadian mosaic. You seem to be defending it and I kinda like that.
#14 Posted by Amin Saleh on February 9, 1999 10:14:53 am
Ferozk and waheed
Are we going to make Newspapers a sacred cow that people think twice before prosecuting them.
Let draw parallels. In the case of Clinton the indictment is not about that he had sex but the case is about him having lied under oath or perjury. Now people tend to twist it into saying that this is political on the part of the Republican, etc. etc. But what I don`t understand is they are actually saying there should be two laws for perjury: one for a person that they like and another for one that they don`t.
Given that Beena`s article clearly says that a senior person in Jung admits that Jung did follow policy of selling newsprint that it was allowed to purchase under lower duty structure. So if they are investigated (despite what was revealed on the audio tape) should be taken as the due process. If they are innocent let it be proven in the court.
In the last decade governments have been dismissed and the courts have decided in the dismissed governments favor. So why not let the courts decide. Why short circuit the whole process and give the newspaper publishers the right to do as they please. Lets promote the concept of upholding the law. However, we should strive to change the law if they are discriminatory and not encourage selective application of the law.
Furthermore, Waheed, if Jung does align himself to the government should they continue to be allowed to not pay taxes (if as their senior official said that they did sell their quota in the market). Or if Clinton was to do whatever the Republicans ask him to do should he permitted to commit perjury. Does two wrongs make it right. What message are we trying to send here.
Are we going to make Newspapers a sacred cow that people think twice before prosecuting them.
Let draw parallels. In the case of Clinton the indictment is not about that he had sex but the case is about him having lied under oath or perjury. Now people tend to twist it into saying that this is political on the part of the Republican, etc. etc. But what I don`t understand is they are actually saying there should be two laws for perjury: one for a person that they like and another for one that they don`t.
Given that Beena`s article clearly says that a senior person in Jung admits that Jung did follow policy of selling newsprint that it was allowed to purchase under lower duty structure. So if they are investigated (despite what was revealed on the audio tape) should be taken as the due process. If they are innocent let it be proven in the court.
In the last decade governments have been dismissed and the courts have decided in the dismissed governments favor. So why not let the courts decide. Why short circuit the whole process and give the newspaper publishers the right to do as they please. Lets promote the concept of upholding the law. However, we should strive to change the law if they are discriminatory and not encourage selective application of the law.
Furthermore, Waheed, if Jung does align himself to the government should they continue to be allowed to not pay taxes (if as their senior official said that they did sell their quota in the market). Or if Clinton was to do whatever the Republicans ask him to do should he permitted to commit perjury. Does two wrongs make it right. What message are we trying to send here.
#15 Posted by ferozk on February 9, 1999 4:50:53 pm
Re: Amin Saleh post #17
I am not in favor of making the press a scared cow, but I am in favor of the press resisting government`s demands on its operations. Neither the press or the government is without sin in this crisis, but like you said, there is a need to work through and within the frame work of an insitution. This crisis needs to be resolved through in a bi-lateral sense and in a manner which reinforces the doctrine of insitutional independence in Pakistan.
The need to change the law and legal system in Pakistan is over due and reason why we keep lurching into crisis, is because we resort to extra-legal means to settle our problems. As to the accountablity of the press, that is a throny issue which is even unanswerable in the west. Yes, the press should be accountable, but it should not intimidated by government to make change its tune. This present crisis should be used to overhaul how we do things in Pakistan, other wise the alternative is revolve from one crisis to another.
I am not in favor of making the press a scared cow, but I am in favor of the press resisting government`s demands on its operations. Neither the press or the government is without sin in this crisis, but like you said, there is a need to work through and within the frame work of an insitution. This crisis needs to be resolved through in a bi-lateral sense and in a manner which reinforces the doctrine of insitutional independence in Pakistan.
The need to change the law and legal system in Pakistan is over due and reason why we keep lurching into crisis, is because we resort to extra-legal means to settle our problems. As to the accountablity of the press, that is a throny issue which is even unanswerable in the west. Yes, the press should be accountable, but it should not intimidated by government to make change its tune. This present crisis should be used to overhaul how we do things in Pakistan, other wise the alternative is revolve from one crisis to another.
#16 Posted by temporal on February 9, 1999 6:36:30 pm
FEROZE:
Re: #15
No--no crytsal ball needed----52+ years of hurling the wrecking ball can bring down ANY structure--- any moment now the straw will land on the camel`s back.....am not suggesting---merely anticipating---Pandora`s box? yes----predictions? no. Preparatory ground work must be done--agreed---as per your order (!) here is my instant recipe.
RECIPE FOR DISASTER AND AFTERMATH
(avail/free of chgarge for all warring factions)
GET ORGANISED. GRIT, DETERMINATION & DISCIPLINE will either win it or lose it---enforce STRICT discipline in ranks-- roll a few heads if necessary---DISCIPLINE like JUSTICE must be seen to be done--- establish CLEAR chain of command---PLAN, PLAN & PLAN--secondary, alternate and fall back---planning pays.
ESTABLISH & NURTURE contacts with the foreign media, NGOs, and ofcourse governments. SECURE a safe base of operations---provide ground zero access and contacts for the international media circus---proper sound bites and effects go a long way---(is my cynicism transparent?)--- foreign support is an important battle front---get them back to safety so we can observe you on the evening news---
PROTECT ALL WOMEN, children and eldery people, NEVER RAPE, murder or kill them--- heads of any violators should roll, possibly publicly----ESTABLISH safe havens for them---allow Red Cross to have a field day--
KEEP INTERACTING on the Chowk for meaningful feedback. (Feroze, yaar, you`d be ideal for this)
Whew---(three dep breaths)---one a saner note the believers, please invoke Allah`s intervention so that such a scenario does not come to pass. As for the others join now in fine tuning this recipe.
regards
Re: #15
No--no crytsal ball needed----52+ years of hurling the wrecking ball can bring down ANY structure--- any moment now the straw will land on the camel`s back.....am not suggesting---merely anticipating---Pandora`s box? yes----predictions? no. Preparatory ground work must be done--agreed---as per your order (!) here is my instant recipe.
RECIPE FOR DISASTER AND AFTERMATH
(avail/free of chgarge for all warring factions)
GET ORGANISED. GRIT, DETERMINATION & DISCIPLINE will either win it or lose it---enforce STRICT discipline in ranks-- roll a few heads if necessary---DISCIPLINE like JUSTICE must be seen to be done--- establish CLEAR chain of command---PLAN, PLAN & PLAN--secondary, alternate and fall back---planning pays.
ESTABLISH & NURTURE contacts with the foreign media, NGOs, and ofcourse governments. SECURE a safe base of operations---provide ground zero access and contacts for the international media circus---proper sound bites and effects go a long way---(is my cynicism transparent?)--- foreign support is an important battle front---get them back to safety so we can observe you on the evening news---
PROTECT ALL WOMEN, children and eldery people, NEVER RAPE, murder or kill them--- heads of any violators should roll, possibly publicly----ESTABLISH safe havens for them---allow Red Cross to have a field day--
KEEP INTERACTING on the Chowk for meaningful feedback. (Feroze, yaar, you`d be ideal for this)
Whew---(three dep breaths)---one a saner note the believers, please invoke Allah`s intervention so that such a scenario does not come to pass. As for the others join now in fine tuning this recipe.
regards
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