Cursed With Scum

just a quote-though i came across this somwhere here at chowk....
. Of all sexual perversions,chastity is the most unnatural.
pehaps u(javed) need not have any repentance--
cheers
waseem

Re: Bina Reply #53

``you might notice that plenty of desi women

are getting a lot of...er...action. Equal

rights rule! ;) ``

I`ve noticed this lately. In some cases, desi women are surpassing desi men in promiscuity.

Although it has little to do with equal rights and more to do with equal needs and the courage to fulfill them I suppose.

You go girls.

Kamran

Actually the title ``a * *hole`` would be somewhat fitting to someone who uses another for personal benefit without caring about the person. Thats called common sense

Socrates was sentenced to death for `Corrupting (the morals of) the youth`, just a thought, nothing more.

I was not talking about emotional experience, though, Omar, now that you mention it, that is a plus too. Face it guys, if you men think that women are too emotional, getting upset over every little thing, I hope you know that we women generally think men are overgrown children, emotionally immature, afraid of their own powerful feelings. It`s hard to respect a race that trembles and grows pale every time the ``L`` word, the ``C`` word, and the ``M`` word are mentioned!

As for the person who asked what do I think about women going out and getting that experience? Honey, actions speak louder than words, and if you haven`t been locked away with the Unabomber for the past ten years, you might notice that plenty of desi women are getting a lot of...er...action. Equal rights rule! ;)

- Bina

Islam does not ask its followers to supress their sexual desires. It is perhaps THE most progressive religion when it comes to sex. Before people distorted it, Islam allowed a couple to contract marriage, both permananent and temporary, without any mullah or witnesses.

It was only after the death of the Prophet that people screwed up everything. And it is not a Shia/Sunni thing either. People have made it a sectarian issue only because the man who banned temporary marriage, Omar bin Khattab, happened to be the most influential figure for Sunni Islam. But it was his personal decision- note he was not not a religious scholar, just a politician when he did this ijtehad- to ban temporary marriage. If it wasn`t for him, Muslims would not have such taboos about sex and boyfriend/girlfriend type relationships.

I found some very good resources on the web about it and, after reading the fatwa of Imam of Al-Azhar university in Egypt, now believe that Muslims, regardless of the school of thought they follow, can benefit from this great law of temporary marriage. For example, there`s a site that has complete information about it from both Shia and Sunni points of view and has extensive references from Siha-e-Sitta and authentic shia and sunni books. Its very logical and makes so much sense. It says, for example (and this is just an excerpt):

``Sexual feelings are strong forces within human beings which are created by God, and like any other force or instinct, should be directed and supervised. Marriage is God`s legislation to direct this very strong force which might otherwise destroy the human being`s prosperity and salvation. Permanent marriage is the most recommended form of marriage, however, there are situations in which for different reasons permanent marriage, where the intention is to construct a family, is NOT possible. Then what should be done in these cases? Can we accept that God has left us on our own in this important issue, or should we expect some legislation in this case as well? If we do not accept temporary marriage, there are two options left:

1)

Sexual promiscuity and licentiousness, with all it`s results. This is what happens (and is promoted by media, Hollywood, etc.) openly in the West, and not very openly in other cultures.

2)

Suppressing all sexual feelings and instincts until a permanent marriage is possible. There are, however, a few problems with this choice:

A)

It is not possible to enforce it in any large scale form, as a general rule for society.

B)

Even if we assume that it can be enforced, it may cause psychological disorders, and many other complexities. Suppressing natural needs and instincts (sexual or otherwise) is not a healthy practice and Islam does not approve of it either.

It is evident that permitting temporary marriage (until a permanent marriage becomes possible) is the best solution. Mut`a is just a sanctification of the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Two people may also live together all their lives without marrying. But a marriage ceremony sanctifies the relationship. The couple acknowledge their actions as fulfillment of God`s will and not merely their personal desires. They are under an obligation to God to fulfill their commitment. In a similar way, Mut`a sanctifies what would otherwise be just a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. ``

While I don`t agree with everything they say but it`s worth a look: http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6a/

They also have the text and references to the fatwa by Imam of Al-Azhar.

Comments?

Ferozk: #49

No prevention device, be it a condom or a birth control pill or else can be 100 percent effective. Nothing in life can be a certainity a 100 percent of the time.

This is precisely what i was trying to tell Javed, but the msg got cut off.

Incidently Feroz, could you drop me an e-mail at OMAR1974@compuserve.com. I want to discuss something, but not on a public msg board.

OMAR

ha ha. hahahaha. ha. is that good enough? am i the only one who has noticed that this has been moved down to the end of the list before its time at the top is up?

Re: Hijab Man #45

I was not suggesting a bimbo a night routine.
There is little probablity of contracting STDs if you choose your partners carefully and find out their past sexual history. No prevention device, be it a condom or a birth control pill or else can be 100 percent effective. Nothing in life can be a certainity a 100 percent of the time. On the second part: there is no subsitute to real life. You may have aced sex ed, but that means nothing. Academia can never trully reflect how reality exists and no amount of academic learning can prepare you for life. You have to live life to experience it and you can not experience life by learning it in a book or a class room.

Re: Omar1974

Emotional maturity?

That was an interesting caveat to the discussion. I agree with you that women may find men to be emotionally immuture, but what about the emotional state of women themselves? Women, in my opinion, put too much stock in emotions and that can be, occassionally, infuriating. They need to grow up and not be so childish all time so that any trival thing upsets them!

That is one aspect of a relationship which I do not miss; catering to their emotional needs!

Re: Morality and the sins of ``Experience``

Hijab boy, I think your problem might be that you are trying to reconcile your religious morality (premarital anything is bad) with your pop-culture morality (physical contact without emotion is bad).

Now I`m not a religious guy but I do believe that most of our morals do stem from religion and basic humanity. What really confuses me is the alleged ``immorality`` of physical intimacy with someone you don`t have feelings for (after all that is what made it `disgusting` for you). Um...where the hell are we getting that from? Certainly there is no major religion that says that. Premarital sex is considered `immoral` by a lot of desis but it is because it is premarital not because it is pre-feelings. (The commandment is Thou shalt not covet,not thou shalt not covet without feelings)

Now imagine this; This couple`s been married twenty years. They started to drift apart a long time ago. However, they never divorced (lets say for the kids). They don`t care for one another anymore. However, every now and then they still have sex... is that an immoral act? They are having sex with someone they don`t care about.

Now I can understand misleading someone in to thinking that you care for them to score is immoral, but what if both parties know its a purely physical thing. How in the world does that lack of feeling amount to an immoral or a bad thing?

Hijab-boy

(I`m begining to see what made u choose this pseudonym, is this a metaphor for your self enforced social hijab?)

Gotta tell u something lil` Mar-12-99 8:32:48 PST: fozia - Re:Omar

Marriage is not equated with living like a monk or nun...

Re:Ferozk

safe sex isn`t 100% safe, it is really just ``safer`` sex. Like Javed said Condoms aren`t foolproof, and they aren`t even used 100% of the time by everyone. Women sometimes miss taking the pill. If it was so safe, then people wouldn`t still be contracting STDs and having unwanted pregnancies.

And we haven`t even gotten into the emotional costs...

Regards,

Fozia

Re: Fozia post # 36

Practice safe sex......

Karakoram : Re your post #34

Have you considered that Bina and Shandana/Slink might just also be talking about EMOTIONAL as opposed to just SEXUAL experience(s) ? I think Zehra is taking about the same thing, as was Subuhi.

Guys take longer to become emotionally mature. (This is a view i have heard many womyn propound)Maybe thats why society always views an older guy with a somehwhat younger woman as the ideal. I.E 28yroldboy with 22yroldgirl as compatible. Infact i would go so far as to say that womyn find men that are their own age in the early 20s to be somewhat emotionally underdeveloped and immature. Maybe this is an overgeneralization, but if so, it seems to affect many, many people`s social outlook(s).

Comments ?

Re: Ferozk

The only 100% sure fire way of not getting STD`s is abstinence my friend. Animal skin condoms dont protect against STD`s (the animal cells have spaces in between large enough for STD`s to get through) and all kinds of dfects with condoms, especially among the ``neon`` variety.

Guess who Aced Sex ed?

Re: Ferozk

The only 100% sure fire way of safe sex is abstinence my friend. Animal skin condoms dont protect against STD`s (the animal cells have spaces in between large enough for STD`s to get through) and all kinds of dfects with condoms, especially among the ``neon`` variety.

Guess who Aced Sex ed?

Fozia post #36

TAKE THEE TO A NUNNERY ...

(I love that line, always wanted to find an occasion to use it, and i`m only half pulling your leg Fozia) :)

Re : mashae (reply# 37)

I noticed that your response upon reading the article and the comments is hahahahahaha. Do you mean ha hah aha or hah aha hah. Or should it actually be read hahahaha. I think we should be told.

Re: Hijab-boy

I don`t what got people so riled up. Christ, we`re getting STD and pregnancy warnings here. Listen to me, its for your own good. There is nothing wrong with getting some before marriage (I`m not talking of sex only).

Sometimes a kiss is just a kiss, and you need to learn that before you go get married.

Javed;
On a more serious note; your essay is smart, funny, well-written and rings extremely genuine. Its content is brave and provocative, okay? The content in tself, outside of your capabilities as a writer will provoke people to respond. People have all kinds of notions about anything to do with sexuality -it is one of our hot buttons, and maybe you pushed it by exposing some of us fuddy-duddies and some of us bigots to a flash of the adolescent world - as we may or may not know it ...

There is so much condescension in some of the replies, which i attribute to people`s knowledge of your age. So I will stop writing soon, in case my reply falls prey to the same.

What I liked about your piece:
- your internalization of the male as ``ass-hole`` stereotype - very funny!
- your depiction of the girl - ``not pretty until she liked me`` - such an accurate observation.
- your ending - classic - a return to your main theme.

keep writing
AA

Re: Bina et al (post # 17)

For the record, I never was a ``cool stud`` nor have I considered myself as such. During high school, even though I dated, I was shy around girls and needed time to create a ``comfort zone`` before I could be intimate with my Xs. Most of the girls who were interested in me and went out with me was because of my being and acting like a dork. One of ex-girlfrieds told me that the reason she liked me was because I was myself and I did not pretend or play ``cool`` mind games to impress her. Also, by being a dork, I am not afraid to make a fool of myself and that reduces a huge amount of angst and stress during ``first dates``.

As to my being cynical, well that comes with age and experinces associated with growing up. I have had my share of relationships and because of each one, I have a more matured perspective on how to deal with future relationships. Based on personal experiences, I favor ``seeing`` different people before settling down and I like the idea of ``kicking the tires and taking a test drive`` before I finally decide on my choice of wife or a significant other. This does not mean that I am discounting love at first glance.

As an interacter suggested, to me the idea of a ``second hand`` spouse is immaterial. If I like her and she likes me, I do not care about her past history or the norms of society and all that matters, to me, is our commitment to each other.

In this case, the creed should be in choosing the significant other: to each is own!

Re: Zehra post 19

its comments such as those that would infuriate me about you omar...i am in no way defending javed`s piece and in no way saying that what you say is not true..all i want to point out in this post is that by making blanket statements such as this, you are labeling javed (unwittingly perhaps) as a person who follows the philosophy you have outlined up top when he may very well not be that person. just be aware of that since it seems that you are developing his persona based on ONE piece by him and without ever even meeting him.

Dear Zehra, nice to hear from you! :) It seems i have an annoying habbit that really gets your goat, much as i try NOT to aggravate you. In this instance you are right, i am perhaps unwittingly putting Javed into this category as people who follow this philosophy, although as you carefully noted i never said that he actually was. I only surmised that he MIGHT be and thus discussing and refuting this philosophy must be relevant in the context of a discussion of this piece. He can easily refute my idea, although its not directed at him specifically. As to knowing someone on the basis of a single piece, well we can never really KNOW anyone really, perhaps not even ourselves. Mind reading is not my speciality, nor am i telepathic. One can only hazard a guess as to how others think, thats all at best. I wish you wouldn`t read that much into my comments as might suggest that they specifically apply to Javed, when i speak out in general against a particular philosophy relevant to the piece w/o explicitly pointing a finger at our young milk maid/author here!

To sum it up, i confess i don`t know what she is carrying in that pail, i can only guess, even as to whether it is (the pail) even empty or full since i haven`t seen it with my own eyes.

re AA:

Thanks i needed that, back to writing!

Javed

oh mygod....oh dear, i cant stop laughing.....ha hah hahahahahaha. i cant possibly even pretend to pass some sort of semi serious/ mildly intelligent comment on this. im sooooo sorry, but thats hystierical. im falling around in fits. so the editors of chowk have a sense of humour. a cruel one, but hahahahahah.....:)

Increased experience especially sexual can lead to increased risk of contracting STDs and unwanted pregnancies too.

Once it`s established that basic personalities and outlooks are compatible, the love,common emotional bonds and sexual experience will blossom in the committed relationship of marriage.

Regards,

Fozia

Re: slink/bina,

Its interesting to learn that some Pakistani women prefer experienced men. A question though, does it matter how that experience is obtained ? (from call-girls etc. or obtained without having to pay for it)

Just curious.

Peace.

You are so incredibly cute and funny, Javed!

Re: tqs

never said there was anything wrong with experimenting together, learning together and growing together, i think thats what relationships (fathers, sisters, significant others included) are about. thing is that you can do all that (and more) with a `second hand` spouse as well and it is from experience that i tell you this..its much better the second, third fourth time round...you are more sure of who you are, of what you like, of what`s important to you. the same way you have a growing and maturing relationship with your family, the same way you have one with relationships (im not solely talking about sex here)...but who am i to even attmept to say anything to you..who cares how wonderful some woman/man will be..if s/he is second hand, sell her/him off at landa bazaar.

rizvi

Tqs, I must thank you, i was afraid all of these people felt like they had to be ``experienced`` Learning together and growing together; That is my ideal.

re: javed

yes we all say we will do better next time..do what shandana has done..come to chowk, see what people are saying about your piece and DONT respond. it just takes ALL the fun out of chowk bashings but keeps your ego somewhat intact.

ciao

z. `who`s toes can i step on next?` rizvi

Well I understand what u were saying in this article and we all have done it and are still doing it. Here is what I think about this and then u guys can trash me.

See in these times males get married when they are in their late 20s. Now how can anyone expect a 23-24 year old guy to walk around virgin. I mean I know some ppl who do it but we all are not heroes. I know I am not. That thing worked when ppl got married when they were in teens. In this time and age it is not possible. Atleast not for me

I will redeem myself with the next writing. Oh yes, Indeed I will.

I agree, it`s not even close to being compard to ``that jelly bean kinda feelin`` actually i sent this in before i sent that one in, it was an experiment. Re: guy who said that he is forced to read this ``drivel`` who forced you to read it? Are you not capable of closing the window? hitting the back button? etc?

speaking of experience....

you should have experience..the same way i believe that you should not marry the first person you fall in love with, the same way you should have experience...it enriches and makes so much more meaningful the relationships you will have afterwards. i went thru the whole, `only after im married` kick and i must say..what a waste. im glad this is being discussed cuz there are men walking around that think that women want an inexperienced man...i just had this discussion with my boyfriend and darling, as you can see...i was right :))

would be interested to hear from the men about `experienced` women..

rizvi

Hi, Javed.

I think you are capable of much better writing than this. However, even this could come out a much better read if words such as `scum` and `a-hole` were replaced with something tamer. NOT because these words are offensive or anything; they are just too strong for the context; the reaction they represent is way too incongruent with everything that leads up to them. I would say the same if you had said `OH MY GOD!!! WHAT HAVE I DONE??!!!` or some such thing.

Shandana and Bina: It`s really easy to talk about `experienced` men. How do you (and all the Chowkie men out there) feel about such `experience` for our girls/women in this regard?

Re Omar:

``Extra/pre-marital Sex, maybe, if you`re religiously inclined, but kissing!!! Where`s the sin in that! Don`t follow the philosophy that if its pleasurable, it must be sinful. Thats just an excuse for both denial of self-gratification and self-imposed mental torture. Don`t go down that path, or your psychiatric bills in later years could well outweight the spiritual benefits (dubious as they maybe) of abstinence.``

its comments such as those that would infuriate me about you omar...i am in no way defending javed`s piece and in no way saying that what you say is not true..all i want to point out in this post is that by making blanket statements such as this, you are labeling javed (unwittingly perhaps) as a person who follows the philosophy you have outlined up top when he may very well not be that person. just be aware of that since it seems that you are developing his persona based on ONE piece by him and without ever even meeting him.

RE: javed..don`t let the negativism get to you my dear..we all have to go through it. its a chowk hazing process. it will only make you stronger and perhaps develop a thick skin ( i hope not, you seem like a great sensitive kinda guy).

z. rizvi

Its not that I find it sinful, its that i found it stupid, atleast in that circumstance, because i didn`t feel anything for her, emotionally. If that makes sense, Good. Thanks to everyone else for the replies, it made me think.

I think this fine person has crafted a very readable short article, and I do also think that something like this happens to many of us. Very well put across. Please do continue writing, there is a satisfaction in

it (writing) which few other actvities provide. Good show...

hmm....er....well..as gatsby said it was interesting to read something from a younger prespective. on a positive note this was written with a lot of energy, on the negative side perhaps that energy might have been diverted in more constructive ways, like finger painting for example.
re javed: if you think that getting married means you`re definately going to get some, let me shatter this illusion now.
it doesn`t.
second, do get some experience, like bina said,it`s the least we expect.
third, don`t take any of this to heart, it happens,we deal.

shandana

Javed,

I think by the time you`re in your late 20s and married, you`ll be a little more forgiving of yourself and your youthful antics. This might look awful to you now, but trust me, by the time you`re about 28, it will make you laugh.

Am tempted to post an article about my first introduction to sex education, but it might raise a few eyebrows.

The rest of you guys, esepcially FerozK and Omar1974:

Hey! Don`t be so cynical. You guys are just trying to pretend you were never this young and naive. Don`t tell me you guys came out of the womb the cool studs that you are today.

Oh yes, and one more thing, as a desi chick, I would really hate to marry/date an inexperienced man.

Just read your replies to other posts, Javed. Hm...

Well, while i sympathize with you, and realize that it`s probably rather annoying to have people telling you that your age is showing, perhaps you should accept that to a large extent it is. That`s not necessarily a bad thing. You`re in high school, writing about a high school experience - that`s perfectly valid - and while i`m sure that right now you feel adamant about some things, don`t assume what you will feel the same way in years to come.

First you say that ``even if you were in college`` you`d feel the same way about your relationship. I know you think you know that, but you don`t know that, no more than i know...:) If you get what i mean. People`s views evolve constantly - notice i don`t say `change,` because it`s possible you may still regret this relationship when you`re older. But do give yourself more credit for being a person who can grow, if in no other way than to look back at yourself and not call yourself `scum` and `disgusting` for a perfectly normal incident.

Also, don`t try to inflate your sentiments by asking how people would react to your article if you were ``in your late 20s and married.`` You`re not in your late 20s, and you`re not married, and whether you accept it or not, it shows.

refreshing to read a piece from a younger perspective. the tone is of a youthful, inexperienced and horny hanif kureishi (hmmm...horny hanif kureishi...is that redundant?)

i`d add that it`s not just pakis who play truth or dare to cop a feel.

Omar, bad form stud, true players never kiss and tell.

Javed : A VIRTUOUS Young milksop ...

Javed (Cont`d)

A very chaste (virginal), unsullied, untouched, modest young milksop ... (a young wench)...:)

Re : Post #6

Javed,

Your 2 posts thus far, and the article itself (expressing regrets over nothing), leave me with the irresistable visualization of YOU as a young milk maid carrying a pail to the pasture, on her way to milk the cows, having been ravished against her will along the way, and having enjoyed it though she put up a token resistence of course, and now at confession repenting her sins to the local pastor on a Sunday after a moving service.

HALLELUJUH!!!! PRAISE BE UNTO THE LORD!!! I have sinned and am now redeemed.

AMEEN!!!

Javed

I found your article really interesting, and funny. And I am really disappointed that all that the ``grown-ups`` on Chowk have to say is ``go out and get it``. Hope you won`t let such immature responces get to you. Keep writing.

Sadaf

Javed -

Don`t beat yourself up so much. I think once you`re a little older you`ll realize that experience is a good thing. Your future wife will no doubt thank her stars and agree.

Javed/Hijabman:

Re:YOUR REASONS (Reply #3)! And just what might they be? Did you by any chance contract some version of a Herpes Simplex cold sore? :)

Sorry man, but you crack me up. Kissing well is a high form of art to me, and while kissing someone for whom you posess both love and affection is great, its almost just as nice/good when all you possess is LUST as well. And, its shall we say, even EXPECTED by a fair number of desi chicks that you`ll be experienced in a few depts BEFORE you get married (cause getting experience with other girls/womyn after marriage would be cheating:). It just didn`t occur to me that there is anything wrong with kissing someone if you both enjoy it. Extra/pre-marital Sex, maybe, if you`re religiously inclined, but kissing!!! Where`s the sin in that! Don`t follow the philosophy that if its pleasurable, it must be sinful. Thats just an excuse for both denial of self-gratification and self-imposed mental torture. Don`t go down that path, or your psychiatric bills in later years could well outweight the spiritual benefits (dubious as they maybe) of abstinence.

It`s difficult to write about such topics. But I admit, I really enjoyed reading this article. Brought back some memories.

Great peace of work!

Today, with the publication of ‘Cursed with Scum’, literacy, at chowk, is dead.

Even if I was in college, I`d probably say the same thing, these are my beliefs, bash them all you want, they won`t change. Ahh So its pre pubescent drivel? What if i said i was actually in my late 20`s, married, and still regret what i did back then? then what would you say? Get some? Sorry I`m not a dog. I`d like to devote myself to one person. Yes, sometimes what i write is not my best, but everyone does that. I write alot, and if you think this is bad/stupid compared to my last one, thats fine, i don`t really think its well written either. ... Take care

Javed

Javed,

Sorry about the loser comment, didn`t realize you were 16-17 yrs old. It would definitely apply if you were in college/university, but was perhaps inappropriate for your age, such a YUCKY experience, huh ! :)

My appologies.

OMAR

Editors,

I`m sorry but do we have to be subjected to such pre-pubescent sophmoric drivel? An article about feeling guilty about kissing a girl? Are you guys that hard up for new material?

Javed

Go get some first, then worry about how it screws with your head.

you are entitled to your own opinion, but everything inside me--my morals, and my brain tell me that I won`t kiss another woman till I`m married. That`s a promise. I have my reasons.

Javed

Re: Javed Memon

I have to second what Omar said.

My friend, it is time you moved beyond the aura of the first kiss. From your article I take it that you`re still in high school and if that is the case, there will plenty of other chances.

On the sunny side of the street, this sounded more like an infatuation than true love. Trust me Javed, you are not a loser or scum for asking one last kiss and I will tell you a little secert, after a few years a kiss will still be a kiss and you`ll be lucky if you even remembered their names (as if that matters).

Javed I got 5 words for you .... GROW UP (&) GET A LIFE! This is the most wretchedly pathetic story. And yet you still dwell on it!

First kisses? Let me tell you something. You only get better with practice at frenching. And it sounds like you`re outta practice.

Moral : You need to go out and get some.

Whats really pathetic i suppose is the fact that you weren`t even really attracted to her. That just makes you more of a LOSER, for doing it in the first place, and much more so for dwelling on it years afterwards. Hokw old are you

now anyway?