Pagans and Competitive Conversions

Iconoclast:

Murad`s statement of ``we can both claim descent from Timur I GUESS`` is as tentative and non-judgemental a statement as one can make.

Where do you read fascism etc? The fact of the matter is that Muslim demographics of SOuth Asia stems from a mixture of immigration from West Asia plus indigenous conversions.

There are some rules of thumb that can one can apply. If you met a Malhotra in Madras, its a fair bet that he can trace back his heritage to Punjab. Similarly, a Bhattacharya in Bombay probably had his roots at some point in Bengal.

I am no expert on Muslim family names but it is possible that there is some rule of thumb for certain last names. Why dont you find out about it before passing judgement on Murad?

While you are reflecting on this matter, play around with these names, will you, and make some guesses (just like Murad was doing) about where they`re from?

Wadekar, Gaekwad, Scindia, Gowda, Venkataraman.

And dont be fascist about it!

Murad Ali Baig `Lane`,

I once came accross a person called Allah Rakha,

he believed himself to be a direct descendant of

Allah, the G_d. Pun intended!

Re: Truth

`` To all the dim-witted Indians getting agitated by the reference to Timur: ``

Leave alone references to Timur. Any such reference to someone in the historic past based on name alone smacks of stupidity or false pride. And Murad`s statement implies just that.

If ``Truth`` or someone else thinks that getting agitated by such a reference is being dim-witted so be it. But then, Truth need not degrade his high calibre and outstanding wit by replying to the dim-wits in this section.

By Murad`s statement, then Azharuddin can claim descent from the holy prophet and i can claim descent from Ali. C`mon there is a limit to which someone can paraphrase idiocy and there is also a limit to which another dim-wit can support such a statement.

``Get a life, dim-wits!``

-- I don`t have one . Wonder if you have one though. Why take time to answer such postings if you think that is being dim-wit ? Anyways taking a long look into the mirror my friend.

Iconoclast

To all the dim-witted Indians getting agitated by the reference to Timur:

Murad never said he was proud of it. Its just a point he was making from his name. He is not responsible for what Timur did either. Not every Muslim of India is a convert. For your info, as per historical records, three quarters of Akbar`s civil sevice was foreign-born.

Get a life, dim-wits!

Re: Murad,

What a fascist statement from you ``claiming descent to Timur ``. ? And that too just by your name ... Do you have any material evidence or genetic proof let alone a family tree.

There are millions of Muhammeds in the world. Can they all claim descendants to the Prophet ( i don`t mean spiritual origin here, by which ofcourse every muslim is the holy Prophet`s descendant). For all practical purposes it is your kind of Muslims (probably converts from upper caste Hinduism, due to avarice and monetary benefits of being a Muslim during the Mughal period) who claim such lineages and are bringing in a Hinduism kind of casteist structure within Islam.

So you are a descendant of Timur... and I am a descendant of a poor Hindu laborer . So what, who gives a damn ? your one reply , stinks of snobbery which has caused poorer muslims in India more trouble than you can imagine.

Iconoclast

Man does not live by bread alone.

I UNDERSTAND, MALIANI, without your using a hammer to make sure i get it, okay!

re: maliani

waaah ji waaaah !!!!! I just swirled a couple times in ecstacy :-) beautiful stuff

re: Murad
WHo cares ? Why do you feel that every religion needs to meet the definition and NORMS of `revealed religions`. In revealed religions, terms like pagans, conversion, believer, disbeliever have relevance. In Hinduism (and a lot of other eastern religions) there is no relevance of these. As Rishi pointed out earlier it is the revealed religions who seek to define other religions in their own image and hence require similar defining boundaries. You are falling into the same orientalist trap !!

re: TO whom it may concern

Terms like pagans, believer, disbeliever, kafir, kulfi, faalooda are meaningless to a lot of us, and have always been political terms.
Think love, think INCLUSIVE (as opposed to exclusive)

your condescendingly
RanaRansher

Purrh Purrh ilm kaza paye karan mufti
Bagh ishk dey rahan majhool mian
Parrian ilm naa rubb dee tam hondee
Iko ishk daa haraf makool mian

``Believing they are well read muftis feel they can give judgement;
But without love they have remained ignorant.
Mere studying gives no knowledge of God.
For that there is only one apt word: Love.

Waris Shah

Mirza Murad Ali Baig wrote...

``Incidentally Omar, my full name is Mirza Murad Ali Baig. So we can both claim descent from Timur I guess. But Please call me Murad.``

I am simply curious to know why you would request Omar to call you only Murad and not by your full name... which may indicate your ``descent`` from Timur. Is it that the acts committed by Timur make your head bow in shame... or you don`t want to appear pompous in public by showing a blatant association with ``the great Timur Lang``?? After all every Muslim in Indian subcontinent is a

descendent of either:

1. Prophet Muhammad

2. Mughals

3. Timur Lang

4. Changhez Khan

5. Arabs

6. Abdali or Ghazni

7. Nadirshah

8.... the list can go on...

Isn`t that right. In fact a preponderance of them are ``direct`` descendent with not a single drop of polluting Indian (or Hindu) blood in them. And all of them are exceedingly proud of the fact. So why aren`t you.

I wonder why anybody would like to hide one`s ``glorious`` identity!!!

Murad states:

Sufi dervishes are little different from the Shamans of Pagans.

I`m glad one can acknoweledge this without being called a bigot! Like i said, these people`s spiritual msg has a respectful place of its own. I do not want to be seen as denigrating it. I was a little angry earlier on because the illiterate masses of Pakistan are misled by their gullibility into thinking spirituality and religion are always one and the same. They are not always the same. Just as long as everyone is clear on this point of mine. Yes, passing one off as exactly the same as the other and pretending there is no difference at all, now that it what i referred to earlier as the `perverse synthesis.` See my earlier posts carefully, RanaRansher. I don`t think you can say I`ve changed my stance at all, you merely misinterpreted it, perhaps i was to blame for my failure to state it clearly enough early on. But you guyz assumed i was TOTALLY anti-sufi from the get-go the moment i opened my mouth ... i`m not at all anti-Sufi, as should be clear from my posts. I`m just anti-Charlatan, and i certainly concede there are a few uncorrupted pirs or fakirs today that may be called true sufis.

Meeting them would be interesting.

Murad states:

Sufi dervishes are little different from the Shamans of Pagans.

I`m glad one can acknoweledge this without being called a bigot! Like i said, these people`s spiritual msg has respectful place of its own. I do not want to be seen as denigrating it. I was a little angry earlier on because the illiterate masses of Pakistan are misled by their gullibility into thinking spirituality and religion are always one and the same. They are not always the same. Just as long as everyone is clear on this point of mine. Yes, passing one off as exactly the same as the other and pretending there is no difference at all, now that it what i referred to earlier as the `perverse synthesis.` See my earlier posts carefully, R.R. I don`t think you can say I`ve changed my stance at all, you merely misinterpreted it, perhaps i was to blame for my failure to state it claerly enough early on. But you guyz assumed i was totally anti-sufi ... i`m not at all anti-Sufi, as should be clear from my posts. I`m just anti-Charlatan, and i certainly concede there are a few uncorrupted pirs or fakirs today that may be called true sufis.

Murad Ali Baig forwarded the following response directly.



Dear Omar, RanaRansher, maliani, Aasif, Saima, etc.,

I`m overwhelmed. I`ve just got back from a trip to Poona and Ahmednagar and am off to Madras tomorrow in my other `avtar` as a motoring journalist. The 22 pages are most interesting and I will reply to some key points on return. However, I think we have all drifted a bit from Pagans. Animism is not bad in my view and continues to be a factor in many present forms of worship. Sufi dervishes are little different from the Shamans of Pagans.

Incidentally Omar, my full name is Mirza Murad Ali Baig. So we can both claim descent from Timur I guess. But Please call me Murad.

Regards

Re: OMAR1974

The movie is not ``Blood of Hussain`` which is a documentary movie about the dark days of Zia`s regime, rather it is ``Immaculate Conception``. And the movie is not really about false pirs. It has a political message. Besides the couple was not american but Anglo-American. And it is not the pir that is wanting green card but rather it is the poor kid who had impregnated the american woman.

And no body is supporting false pirs. Unfortunately, Sufism has been institutionalized which is totally opposite to Sufi teachings.

Parr Parr hazaar kitaban
Aalim howay saaray hoo
Hiko haraf ishk daa naa parr day
Bholay phiran wichaaray hoo

Having read a thousand books they feel they know;
But as they have not read the one essential word, Love,
They wander astray, and the poor ones are lost.

--Sultan Bahu

Maliani, I stand corrected.

On Corrupted Pirs



I`m curious about what people have to say about Pir Pagara (Sindhi),reputedly a pohncha hua pir, though i have never met him. I thought that these mystics were suppose to be removed from earthly posessions, material things, yet not only (I believe) is he very wealthy, not exactly some half naked faqir wandering around living on charity, but he is also involved in power politics. And politics in Pakistan is a cesspool as we all know. So for a representative of a group of people who are supposed to be far removed from the eathly concerns of this world, he seems rather immersed in both the trappings of power and wealth, and strangely unable to shake off `life`s mortal coil.`

Comments?

There is a movie (Blood of Hussein)that raised an uproar in Pakistan a few years back, about how an America couple (wife infertile) get duped by a pir at some mazar (Pir Sahib first dopes her, then rapes & impregnates her, she had come to the shirne to pray to G-D for a child). The story gets even more interesting, the pir wants a green card. A good characterization of the low, slimy characters of pirs in general today in Pakistan. Required viewing for those who would defend them.