Face to face with the Indian Muslims

What else can you read from a pakistani.

Have you any idea what rowdies from muslim parties do in India.

When Iran and Iraq went to war, hindu shops were burnt in Hyderabad. For what good reason, because shias and sunnis are fighting it out. And hindus are a good target to throw in for both.

2% in govt jobs you say. I would like to see how. In hyderabad they are definitely way above that number.

Muslims are slaughtered in riots!! Did you also read that most riots are started by muslims. Even in the bombay riots it was started with muslims killing a certain chawla family which had a lame girl who could not move. These brave muslims locked the doors and set the house on fire.

Murder can never be justified, not even as retaliation for babri masjid demolition. Or as retaliation to murder of hindus.

But it depresses me that you can see the suffering only of muslims not anyone else. Are you worth two pennies. Why do you think that the world dislikes the ummah. Because the ummah does not care for anyone else. And it has a history of hatred against everyone that is not a muslim. The automatic assumption that all non muslims are evil. You derive it from the koran. There is no escape.

The pact between chittaranjan and suhrawardy was shot down you say, please tell me how hindus are faring in Bangladesh today.

``Neighbourhood hindus looking forward to eliminate muslims``, you are simply one muslim league windbag. That is the least I can say. In this apartment complex where my friends live there is one muslim family. From some nawabi stuff. These guys root for pakistan. They have relatives in pakistan. Noone stuck a knife in them.

Muslims want to move into ``hindu`` areas, because there is better ambience. More peace rather than the war zone siege mentality in the ghettos that mobs have built in ``muslim`` areas. You haven`t the least idea what you are talking about.

What else can one expect from a muslim leaguer.

And please tell me of the genorosity you have shown to ahmediyas in pakistan. And how lovingly you treat the few miserable hindus in pakistan.

This post is not really about the article but more about this discussion that has started off (as usual Indians and Pakistanis throwing stones at each other and claiming that the other`s country has no right to exist etc.).

I am just a little curious about how the quota system, used for Govt. jobs and postitions in educational institutions, based on the caste a hindu belongs to fits into Indian secularism?

This might be criticism of India but please do try and ignore the fact that I happen to be a Pakistani.

Is the caste system still accepted and practiced in India today?

Some contributors love to post multiple times. Let me also try this strategy. Perhaps I will get a reply

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Mr. Omar1974,

Before making final rebuttal/comments, kindly answers my questions. You love to write, so write whatever you can. But kindly don t digress from these points. We know all about your views on Jinnah, TNT, conditions of muslims in India and other topics in this world.

Kindly restrict yourself to enlightening us on following simple questions

1. Give us benefits of your superior intellect on whose Islam is right, Shias or Sunnis?

2. Are Ahmediyas Muslim?

3. Bangladesh are predominantly muslim. Why do you call them bengalis and not muslims? Another location on same site is full of your insights on Bengali gaddars !!

Re: Icon and All

I quote myself from post #12 (one of the earlier posts that I intended to stimulate this debate with because real issues are indeed involved though you may deny them all you want)

‘We must scratch beneath the surface and unearth the truth. And if we are unable to unearth any `truth,` we must at least examine the possibility that more than one truth exists. Life, and the world are not Unidimensional, perhaps too, neither is India.’

It has been fun. The irony I hope is not lost on you in my revealing my final little prank, that just as India is not Unidimensional, neither are my views though when I have chosen to play any particular side I have always tried to represent it, to its logical extremes as best I could to make it real. I can always see both sides clearly, and in the interests of debate enjoyed various roles in my internet identity here. I am not Unidimensional either:) Anyway. Gladys Stains is a true Saint, I envy her her compassion, I am no Saint, just a realist about the world.

Its been fun. Couldn’t resist the last rebuttal/post as a finale.

Regards to all,

Omar Mirza, a/k/a MPD

Apologies to Icon for partly using him to create this debate. It was necessary. Cheerio.

It seems Truth has few defenders on Chowk, as liberals scurry like rats to the corners,

unwilling to discuss some very valid points about India, simply because the images Mr.Mirza

has conjured up are both distasteful, and not so far from reality which makes some people very uncomfortable.

Here are a few more facts to add to his:

1) The Movie Bombay never played in Hyderabad Daccan. A Hyderabadi Indian friend in the U.S

said there would have been communal riots there if a Moslem girl was shown running away with a Hindu boy. Apparently the Moslems of India have not yet been fully domesticated to accept complete ‘assimilation’ as Mr. Mirza puts it, somewhat bluntly. They are still a trifle prickly about these sorts of things. It would appear, that Secularism has its limits as a unifying cross-religious ideology in India. It has not yet been able to displace Islam.

2) As for Aligargh University, I think all Muslims on the subcontinent should acknowledge the debt the Independence struggle owed to the muslim students and professors here. It is indeed sacrilege if what is alleged in the article is indeed going on. I empathize with Mr.Mirza’s sentiments. BINA, if this constitutes ‘hate mongering’ let us have more of it, not less. The Muslims of Indian are being robbed of the jewels of their cultural heritage. Why should silence prevail? Such silence is based only on an

elitist conception of political correctness far removed from the sentiments of the masses or ground realities at large. It is indeed this very silence on the part of the majority of the German people that condoned genocide against 6 million Jews, lest we are to learn anything from history.

The irony of a liberal, like yourself, among others, calling for censorship is also not lost on me. It seems you have become an advocate of `safe speech`, not `free speech!` (hahaha)

3) Communal violence in India and Pakistan is nothing to shy away from discussing simply because it involves distasteful bloodshed.

4) What is most interesting is that I believe in all likelihood that Mr.Mirza has indeed portrayed one possible scenario of the implosion of India. It should receive a fair hearing, after all we don’t all want to be caught by surprise by CNN camera crews! (having missed the boat now when the opportunity presented itself to air our views, and the subcontinent’s dirty laundry publicly) The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia imploded in this decade, watch out for India to implode in the next!

5) I take note that Mr.Mirza is also not the one to resort to mere vulgarity in this debate, though he has passion, no doubt. ‘Liberals’ who do so are more likely than not to simply likely to lend themselves to his amusement. It seems he wished to provoke us. Free speech has its limits, but in my opinion he has not crossed them thus far in this debate.

6) I would also like to point out to Mr. Iconoclast that his characterization of Sheikh Abullah is fascious at best, or revealing of his deep ignorance. The man is best known for being a political ‘lota’ with no loyalties whatsoever, except political expediency and his ability to change political colors like a chameleon. He is both a charlatan and an unprincipled rascal of the first rank who serves as India’s ‘loyal’ lackey in his role of state figurehead as Chief minister of Kashmir to lend some credibility to

Indian propaganda claims of ‘democracy’ in the valley, and in actual fact to detract from the presence of 700,000 Indian troops and Soldiers in the state.

MPD

Talking about muslim immigration at partition time, author totally ignored the hindus migration.

The fact remains, 99% of Hindus migrated to India where as only 10% of Muslims migrated externally. Half truths are worse than lies.

This in itself explains the highly biased attitude of author.

re: All

As Daffy Duck would say Desss-picchhhhhable (despicable) !!

What a mish mash ? Here we have have Omar90210 who has now reached a level of `divinity` where he believes nobody or nothing. Just in his own victimization theories based on the typical Muslim persecution complex, which I have encountered all my life. ALthough, in so many replies (within this article and others) each and every one his allegations has been ANSWERED. Well, so he will start a Nuclear war someday and I bet he receives `divine` instructions to that effect. Good luck to you !

I have a very fundamental question to Muslims (yes not people just Muslims). There is a pattern I have noticed. The Muslim populace the world over seeks a GOVT OF MUSLIMS, FOR MUSLIMS and BY MUSLIMS. In areas where there are mixed (read secular) populations their Islamic identity (never figured that one out, could use help) is threatened. Once they get that through separation, religious cleansing, 2-10 Nation theories, etc. they then get on with the next phase of WHOSE ISLAM is PURER and is the one they should follow. Now, this doesn`t hold true for EVERY INDIVIDUAL (this word holds the clue) MUSLIM, but this is the way every country with Muslim populations has developed socially and politically. I would be delighted to hear about exceptions.
A beautiful concept of Universal brotherhood has been taken INTERPRETED as the boundary between brotherhoods. A visionary concept that at one time liberated slaves, reconciled racial boundaries, empowered the under class has today defined a very myopic and BIGOTTED world view where the UMMAH consists of only Muslims. The Muslims world view does NOT extend its brotherhood to anyone else and only INCLUDES Muslims.

In this article and its subsequent replies we can see some of these Muslims :
1) see the poor Muslims in a group of poor people
2) see a Hindu shop keeper as the oppresor (yeah my deli wallah oppresses me cause I buy coffe from him and he is a Paki !!) Some would say it could mean Hindu Muslims living in harmony, especially when you have Hindus selling tasbihs, etc. NAHHH!
3) THe intellectual lot - in an attempt to make some rational arguments - come up with proposed case studies where Indian Muslims demographics need to be studied. Some of the things suggested (seeing how many have phones, income levels, etc.) are things I have never grouped people by.
Well, folks, we have been raised on lies about secularism and have never grouped people like that. I am actually appalled at the way you view the world with ISLAMIC glasses (are they green tinted ;-) in these groups of people classified by the religion they are born into. I refuse to stoop to that level.
I even refuse to start naming important Muslims, rich Muslims, etc. to prove something. To prove what ? What about the common Indian (be it Hindu/Sikh, jain, Buddhist, Parsi, Christian) ? Why should I ? I have been raised on secular rhetoric which teaches me to view people as people. THERE ARE NO POLICIES IN PLACE TO SUBJUGATE MUSLIMS. Yet, some of these said famous Muslims of India were recently busy collecting funds for far-way Muslim brothers, although they couldn`t care less for their countrymen living right next door in refugee camps.
THe state of India has institutionalized a governing policy which INCLUDES ALL its citizens. It is full of contradictions, just to appease people wearing Islamic glasses, with separate civil laws, nation-wide bans on anything they don`t like, not allowing newspapers about the KASHMIRI GENOCIDE of Hindus and writing about the Kashmiri Hindus in refugee camps all over India. These people stick out in our faces all the time.
But none of this means anything.
I, meanwhile, have to live with the contempt and hatred Muslims have towards me because I am a Hindu. Kashmiris hate me because I am a Hindu. My parents came from present day Pakistan because I am a Hindu. I may have tried all my life to come up with a world view that reconciled the world around me, yet was at odds with my parents MUSLIM experinces, but that is irrelevant. I need to prove to Muslims how they haven`t been mistreated. And I need to do this in Muslim terms, by comparing them to other Muslims. Yeah...the ethinicity, region they live in, line of work, level of education, family structure, background, etc. have nothing to do with it. Just compare them to other Muslims. How about comparing them to their Hindu neighbours and seeing why certain AREAS are poor and backward. NAHHH ! In the Muslim world view there is no room for the Kafir. (notice how Indian Muslims share geographical, culture similarities with Pakistani Muslims, the Hindus obviously don`t)

Since coming to chowk, I have read some books on Jinnah. Every day my belief in the man gets stronger. Jinnah was right when he said that India has had a Muslim nation and a Hindu Nation for over a 1000 years. I understand what that statement means now. It just needs to be realised now. RR says he thinks Hindus and Muslims could live together in harmony. This is, particularly, interesting given the fact that I remember having a discussion with him a while back where our stances were just the opposite.
Maybe that means SOME SERIOUS PARITIONING again. But, in my opinion, Jinnahs dream will be realised one day. There is no other way. I understood this after I read Jinnah and understood a little more about the UMMAH.
During a discussion with a childhood friend (our neighbour) I was once deeply hurt when he mentioned how ``people stick to their kind``. It was in reference to his concern over bombings in Afghanistan in retaliation to Osama playing diwali all over Africa. He had meant `kind` to imply same religion. I did not understand the UMMAH then and could not understand how the 2 of us, practically lived 15 years together, were not of the same KIND.

A question to you UMMAH guys (Muslims who don`t believe in this bigotted crap need not respond, I understand not all MUslims are alike). DO you believe in secularism ? How do you reconcile a multi-religious world population in your rather bigotted world view. INSTEAD OF DEFINING WHO YOUR BROTHER IS YOU CLEARLY DEFINE WHO IS NOT YOUR BROTHER (sic!). Do you cringe when you see someone, obviously, not a Muslim ?
What do you really expect from those ignorant NON MUSLIM secularists who keep trying to include you in their `unity of purpose` ? WHat do you say behind closed doors in the comfort of your UMMAH.

Really, all the contradictions about the TNT are irrelevant. THings like different ethnicities still have the same very similar problems in Pakistan (sectarian/caste, whatever). There exists a Bangladesh. The census in Pakistan does not want to count people as Mohajirs, Punjabis, Sindhis, for obvious reasons. India chose a secular path making plenty of concessions for the increasingly paranoid Muslim community as opposed to whatever-you-describe-Pakistans-govt.

ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT THE UMMAH MUSLIM WILL NEVER INCLUDE YOU IN HIS `UNITY OF PURPOSE`. IN FACT YOUR NOT BEING A MUSLIM IS ACTUALLY AN EYE SORE FOR HIM. (whew!! just to recall the number of times I was asked whether I was a Muslim in Afghanistan, bangladesh and Jordan). Nobody else, not christians, not Buddhists, chinese whatever have ever asked me this.

I for one don`t want to become just like these UMMAH bigots. However, even in coversing with them I am forced to start thinking like them. I was actually considering finding out what those stats for Muslims in India were !!!!!
And including such people in your own world view will only lead to dejection, because it is NOT reciprocated .....
The Muslims who are more modern and humanistic are often called Ghaddars, Hindus (thats a derogatory term ...) and they, for all prctical purposes, are not Muslims cause they dont serve the UMMAH.

A highly uni-dimensional article listing the litany of injustices suffered by Muslims in India. The problem which the author laments is not only applicable to the Muslims in India; it is lived, and suffered each day by Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and other minorities in Pakistan. When it comes to the treatment of minorities, the record of South Asia is not really a proud one!

Two things come to mind, upon reading this article, and both need to stressed. One, people who live in glass houses should not throw stones and secondly, if they do, they should be without sin themselves!!!!! Chowk is a highly tolerant community of people and it behooves logic that Chowk should be used as a platform to spew hatred. The common attraction for all of us, I hope, to Chowk is the tolerance of it as debating forum and when that debate degenerates, the only thing which that accomplishes is nothing more than a sense of disenchantment.

In the interests of open debate, I support the submission and the posting of the article on Chowk, but I deplore the message that it seeks to convey!

Re:

About the Glades Stains story

http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/jan/28chris.htm

also you can check www.vikatan.com/1_2_99/main.htm

but this article is in tamil .. you might need a translator.

Iconoclast

Rehan (Reply #31):

Thanks for the constructive suggestions. I am one of those Indians who simply thought of himself as Indian but of late I think of myself as a Hindu Indian. There are two reasons for this change:

1. Regardless of how much I portray myself as ``just Indian``, it is inevitable that a non-Hindu will view me as a Hindu. This is not negative or positive, its just a statement of fact. So in part, my Hindu identity was not something that I could unilaterally renounce.

2. In the run up of aggressive Hinduism, I felt it was necessary for ``normal`` Hindus such as myself (pat myself on the back) not to restrict myself to the ``secular`` label and cede the label ``Hindu`` to bigots. So, in a sense my reconnection to my Hindu identity was driven partly as a reaction to and in opposition to assertive and aggressive Hinduism.

3. Yet, in a very core way, I remain simply Indian. Shankracharya, Gandhi, Akbar, Babar - they are all part of my heritage. This splitting of history into ours and theirs is a peculiarly Pakistani phenomenon which I resist with all my heart.

And here is a request for more details from learned writer of this article,

1. When you are referring to an article in Indian newspapers, you can certainly quote us the date of the publication?

2. Why don t you enlighten us upon conditions of churches, temples and mosques in Bangladesh and Pakistan?

3. Are you aware that waqf board in India gets grant for subsidizing the Haj? No other community (Christians, Hindus, Jains, Sikhs, Parsis, Bodhs) gets this help.

4. Parsis very proudly claim and acknowledge that they have origin in Persia. Why do they succeed in India and don t face persecution?

5. When you are so much in favor of TNT, why not a three nation theory! Will Christians not demand another nation? Why not FNT four nation theory? Where will you leave Parsis? And will you divide every village and town on this basis. And what kind of muslims will you define as muslims. You defined Ahmediyas as muslims while getting their votes and than threw them away.

Let my first leave few points for Mr Omar Mirza, this self-proclaimed defender of Pakistan and muslims

1. Give us benefits of your superior intellect on whose Islam is right, Shias or Sunnis?

2. Are Ahmediyas Muslim?

3. Bangladesh are predominantly muslim. Why do you call them bengalis and not muslims? Another location on same site is full of your insights on Bengali gaddars !!

I think the person best qualified to speak about
what life is like for an Indian Muslim is....an
Indian Muslim. Let Indian Muslims write articles
about their situations and then I would feel I`d
gotten an authentic point of view.

But face it, we can have as many articlea about
_____ living in _________ (ex. women in Pakistan, foreigners in America, penguins in Antarctica) and it would only be the subjective viewpoint of one person, not an objective study of everyone. We can have numbers, facts, and figures, as Wasiq suggests, and we can have personal essays, and we might approach ``the truth`` - but in the end, the truth is highly dependent on each individual`s experiences and prejudices.

And I am disappointed to see this rabid, intolerant, one upmanship going on in an online community that had until now managed to stay clear of the Pakistan-India bashing game. We as a community should formulate rules that make it a ``hate crime`` to get personal - referring to history and each other`s mothers - and to deal with it accordingly.

I won`t come to Chowk nor write for it anymore if it descends into foolishness. And I bet other contributors will boycott as well. So better not spoil it for all of us!!!

Re: The Article

Let me point you to a similar feeling of deprivation that exists right here in the US: AIDS was invented and spread by the CIA in Africa and in black communities. Drugs and guns are supplied in the black communities by the govt agencies. Blacks are over-represented in combat battallions and under-represented in higher ranks. Very few black faces can be seen in the executive offices or in board rooms in corporate America.

These are just some of the myths, rumors and perceptions that are widely believed in the black communities of the United States. Undoubtedly, some of them are based on facts. But the macro-view of the phenomenon gives a glimpse of the victim mentality that exists in blacks. Why? Well, anyone who is aware of the past knows why. But mainly, it`s because majority of blacks still live in poverty or are still playing the losing game of catching-up to the whites in all fields.

One way is to blame the whites. The other is to take action and do something to eradicate the problem. The Nation of Islam, regardless of their hodge-podge of self-styled belief-system, used it`s rhetoric of black-empowerment to motivate the youth into cleaning-up their neighborhoods of crimes and gangs, and encouraged the blacks to start their own schools, businesses, media and take control of their lives. The second method obviously works much better.

I am surprised myself that I`m saying this, but when I looked at it from a Hindu fundamentalist`s perspective, I came to believe that it is the goodness of the Hindus that they opted the democratic system of government instead of an outright Hindu state in India. They could`ve easily opted at anytime during the last 50 years to proclaim an official Hindu state where Muslims would`ve been treated as declared minorities. Hindus are in majority, there`s no doubt about it.

Therefore, if the Muslims of India want to establish themselves in India, they shouldn`t look at the Hindus to do any favors for them. They`ll have to do everything themselves. It may take 50 years or perhaps a lot more to achieve a better quality of life for them. But India will remain a democracy, hopefully, and no one will take away their accomplishments in that system. They should fight their cases of discrimination in courts and approach the problem in a more systematic and logical manner.

I believe that it is very much possible for Hindus and Muslims to peacefully coexist and even establish a modern and civil society that respects all. I think that the cultural norms of both Hindus and Muslims have much in common. It would be a pity to let the extremist destroy the harmony that existed between the two groups for most of the time in history. Both sides must take some steps towards each other to come closer. Hindus must shed their support for hatemongers of extremist groups.

Muslims must accept that they are nationals of India and that they are there to stay. Pakistan considers them as Indian as it regards the Hindus. If they think that Pakistanis have any sympathy for them they should wake up to reality.

If Pakistanis had the slightest soft-corner for the Indian Muslims, they would not have abandoned the 200,000 Pakistani-nationals, who happened to be Behari-Muslims, in Bangladesh. Pakistan supports the Kashmiris for political purposes and for self-interest. There are Punjabis, Sindhis, Pathans, and Balochis in Pakistan. People who migrated from India thinking they were going to a Muslim homeland, they too, now proudly call themselves Mohajirs. Those Indian Muslims who still support Pakistan against India must reset their priorities. Indian Muslims must give their heart and soul to India and India will give them back all it`s got.

The recent rise in Hindu fundamentalism is only an expression of self-realization by the Hindu majority that, they too, have an identity other than just being Indian. It`s not necessarily bad. It only creates problem when extremists exploit it`s power for their quick political gains by unleashing it for destructive purposes and creating hatred, instead of channeling it for more positive and productive purposes.

What needs to be done is to have the extremists on both sides sidelined, and moderates must come forward to fill the gap. India will emerge as a global superpower only if it is able to resolve it`s interal conflicts successfully. And the only way to do that is for the Indian people to realize that there can`t be and won`t be anymore splits and geographical divisions and that people who live in India today are there to stay. Better live in peace with each other and benefit from each other`s success, than lose that chance of attaining greatness that they aspire so much. And that can only come through tolerance, unity of purpose and collective effort.

Rehan Rizvi.

Icon:

I keep my word. But you`ll pardon me for asking for the exact citation information and the URL of Rediff on the net before i do so. One thing i`ve learned ... never trust anything anyone says without independent verification. I`m sure you won`t mind this one concession. Not that i doubt your word, i just like 100% proof.

Btw, regarding the India v. Pakistan situation, I never stated Pakistan was `an abode of heaven` today or words to that effect. But i object to the holier than thou attitude Indians love to

portray about India, when the truth is far from it.

OMAR MIRZA

Indian Muslims cannot but must be viewed relatively, ie, to their closest counterparts, the Pakistanis (this is so, I believe, both because of their common history and close cultural and geographical proximity).

- Of the total Muslims in India, what percentage of them are economically better off than the percentage in Pakistan, eg, 10% Indian Muslims v 60% Pakistani Muslims (Note: this is just an example).

- What percentage of Indian Muslims have how many years of education v percentage in Pakistan?

- What percentage of Indian Muslims feel that their properties, their lives, and their honor are secure v the percentage in Pakistan who feel that way, especially in Bombay v Karachi (both commercial hubs)?

- How many Shia/Sunni riots have taken place in the past 5 years in India v in Pakistan?

- How many Shias have been murdered by the Sunnis, and vice versa, in India v in Pakistan in the past 5 years?

- How many mosques in India have been invaded by the Muslims and murder of innocent people praying there have taken place v the same in Pakistan?

- Are the Muslims in India by Indian non-Muslims viewed and treated the same as the Qadianis in Pakistan?

- Are the Qadianis in India by Indian Muslims viewed and treated the same as the the Qadianis in Pakistan?

- What percentage of Indian Muslims feel that a particular brand of Islam has been shoved down their throat v the percentage of Pakistanis who feel that way?

I`m sure many more relative questions can be raised.

Now, I`m not an Indian, but I do feel that answers to some of these questions could be quite disturbing to the Pakistanis who view the ``plight`` of the Muslims in India through dark glasses. Nonetheless, the only way to find out for sure is for someone to do an unbiased and unemotional research and come up with the comparable statistics that should lay this debate to rest, that is, as a South Asian Muslim, is he/she better off in India or in Pakistan.

More importantly, however, the research will answer the fundamental question: Is Pakistan worth the price that was paid for it in terms of human sacrifice and suffering?