Rehan Ansari May 18, 1999
#9 Posted by rishi on May 19, 1999 1:39:41 pm
Re: Sigalph
Just out of plain curiosity,,, why do you always label the pakistani army as ``the finest army`` in the world. Have they proved this worth through any deed. I scratch my brains and i cannot put forth one single action where they have proved those words.
Could you care to substantiate your words sir
Rishi
Just out of plain curiosity,,, why do you always label the pakistani army as ``the finest army`` in the world. Have they proved this worth through any deed. I scratch my brains and i cannot put forth one single action where they have proved those words.
Could you care to substantiate your words sir
Rishi
#8 Posted by AA on May 19, 1999 11:24:15 am
Re: Godot
What you suggest is very plausible. It may happen even if not by his own design. With all this international attention, he is truly bringing together progressive elements in Pakistani society to rally around freedoms. If he did it by design (which I serious doubt), I hope he didn`t because that may imply subverting people`s freedoms over his personal ambition..and our country will probably crack with the tension of leaderlessness.
On the other hand, as the article quotes a Lahori, Lahore would have been okay, but not Delhi. The deep seated fear, resentment, (de)masculation we feel wrt to our neighbor is as much part of our ``tehzeeb`` as Ashfaq Ahmed plays, so anyone who starts off with that will probably have a lot of knots to untie before he can win the people`s approval. But that hate as part of the national psyche is probably what Sethi is trying to question. I wish we could get beyond this reactionary mentality and really use our dormant brains.
What you suggest is very plausible. It may happen even if not by his own design. With all this international attention, he is truly bringing together progressive elements in Pakistani society to rally around freedoms. If he did it by design (which I serious doubt), I hope he didn`t because that may imply subverting people`s freedoms over his personal ambition..and our country will probably crack with the tension of leaderlessness.
On the other hand, as the article quotes a Lahori, Lahore would have been okay, but not Delhi. The deep seated fear, resentment, (de)masculation we feel wrt to our neighbor is as much part of our ``tehzeeb`` as Ashfaq Ahmed plays, so anyone who starts off with that will probably have a lot of knots to untie before he can win the people`s approval. But that hate as part of the national psyche is probably what Sethi is trying to question. I wish we could get beyond this reactionary mentality and really use our dormant brains.
#7 Posted by SR on May 19, 1999 11:07:53 am
Re: sigalph235
[``...The land which was once ruled by lionhearted men is today ruled by cowards...``]
I beg to differ, on the first count only, not the second. With the possible exception of the reign of Rangit Singh, when have we seen any `lionhearted men` ruling from Lahore? Never.
We Lahoris (yes, I`m from the same soil) are good at barrhaks (slogan mongering), but basically we are baqris (cowards). Through the centuries we would greet invaders from the west, offer them `doodh malai and ladoo` and put flower garlands around their necks. Then we`d line up along the GT road with banners in our hands pointing an arrow eastward with the caption : PANIPAT THIS WAY.
:)
...SR
[``...The land which was once ruled by lionhearted men is today ruled by cowards...``]
I beg to differ, on the first count only, not the second. With the possible exception of the reign of Rangit Singh, when have we seen any `lionhearted men` ruling from Lahore? Never.
We Lahoris (yes, I`m from the same soil) are good at barrhaks (slogan mongering), but basically we are baqris (cowards). Through the centuries we would greet invaders from the west, offer them `doodh malai and ladoo` and put flower garlands around their necks. Then we`d line up along the GT road with banners in our hands pointing an arrow eastward with the caption : PANIPAT THIS WAY.
:)
...SR
#6 Posted by SaimaShah on May 19, 1999 10:41:31 am
I think there is something tragicomic about a nation who thinks that the underdog deserves being underdog.
Your article is fantastic in the truth it reveals.
I think it is because of our deeply inbuilt belief in fatalism, that makes the country so inhuman.
It shows how we think. We perceive strength and might as moral and right, merely because it is strength. Machoness is a value initself. Are we primitive? yes. Do we deserve this Govt.? Yes.
Your article is fantastic in the truth it reveals.
I think it is because of our deeply inbuilt belief in fatalism, that makes the country so inhuman.
It shows how we think. We perceive strength and might as moral and right, merely because it is strength. Machoness is a value initself. Are we primitive? yes. Do we deserve this Govt.? Yes.
#5 Posted by sigalph235 on May 19, 1999 9:37:16 am
Re: SR
Thank you for your post which put a grain of much needed levity in the otherwise drab discourse. When I mentioned lionhearted men ruling ``this land`` I was actually refering to the entire landmass that became Pakistan as a whole rather than just the Punjab. Being not Punjabi myself I really cannot be microscopic but I do know and am related to plenty; they are indeed a great, funloving, and decent people. As for the lionhearted rulers, I meant people like Akbar, Sher Shah Suri, Ranjeet Singh, Liaquat Ali Khan, and H.S. Suhrawardy.
None of that takes away from the fact, as is well mentioned by you and others, that the treatment being meted out to the Sethis is cowardly. The world`s ``finest`` Army is being used to shake-up one journalist because his utterances have made Mian sahib uncomfortable. There is indeed a note of caution here. Militaries get big, bloated, corrupted, and WEAKENED in their actual profession when they are used internally. Any Latin American country is a prime example. Policymakers in Islamabad may well take heed.
Thank you for your post which put a grain of much needed levity in the otherwise drab discourse. When I mentioned lionhearted men ruling ``this land`` I was actually refering to the entire landmass that became Pakistan as a whole rather than just the Punjab. Being not Punjabi myself I really cannot be microscopic but I do know and am related to plenty; they are indeed a great, funloving, and decent people. As for the lionhearted rulers, I meant people like Akbar, Sher Shah Suri, Ranjeet Singh, Liaquat Ali Khan, and H.S. Suhrawardy.
None of that takes away from the fact, as is well mentioned by you and others, that the treatment being meted out to the Sethis is cowardly. The world`s ``finest`` Army is being used to shake-up one journalist because his utterances have made Mian sahib uncomfortable. There is indeed a note of caution here. Militaries get big, bloated, corrupted, and WEAKENED in their actual profession when they are used internally. Any Latin American country is a prime example. Policymakers in Islamabad may well take heed.
#4 Posted by Godot on May 19, 1999 9:37:16 am
Re: AA, #6
``I hope he didn`t because that may imply subverting people`s freedoms over his personal ambition..and our country will probably crack with the tension of leaderlessness.``
I strongly disagree with your ``imply his personal ambition`` and ``subverting people`s freedom``, not to mention ``leaderlessness``.
Why does one always need to question one`s love for his country and people as ``personal ambition``? If you really care about Pakistan and are willing to risk your life to do something about the pathetic state it`s in, should one be justified in saying that you are doing this because of your own personal glory and ambition? Did Nehru and Havel do what they did for their countries for personal ambition and glory? How about Nelson Mandela? To take it a step lot further, did Jesus and Mohammad do what they did for their own ``personal ambition``? On the other hand, Is Nawaz Sharif prime minister of Pakistan because he loves Pakistan? Was Benazir Bhutto? Is Asif Zardari a senator because he loves his constituency and wants to improve its lot? One should be able to separate good from bad! One can figure out a person by the company that person keeps, books he reads, and what he writes. Since I know Najam Sethi only from his writings, I am willing to bet on him, without questioning ``his personal ambition``.
And even if Najam did this by design, what other options you think a thinking and decent person has in Nawaz Sharif`s Pakistan? If anything, Najam seems to want to give Pakistanis the freedom they deserve, not subvert it.
``[L]eaderlessness``? You consider Nawaz Sharif and Benazir leaders? You`ve got to be joking, man!
``I hope he didn`t because that may imply subverting people`s freedoms over his personal ambition..and our country will probably crack with the tension of leaderlessness.``
I strongly disagree with your ``imply his personal ambition`` and ``subverting people`s freedom``, not to mention ``leaderlessness``.
Why does one always need to question one`s love for his country and people as ``personal ambition``? If you really care about Pakistan and are willing to risk your life to do something about the pathetic state it`s in, should one be justified in saying that you are doing this because of your own personal glory and ambition? Did Nehru and Havel do what they did for their countries for personal ambition and glory? How about Nelson Mandela? To take it a step lot further, did Jesus and Mohammad do what they did for their own ``personal ambition``? On the other hand, Is Nawaz Sharif prime minister of Pakistan because he loves Pakistan? Was Benazir Bhutto? Is Asif Zardari a senator because he loves his constituency and wants to improve its lot? One should be able to separate good from bad! One can figure out a person by the company that person keeps, books he reads, and what he writes. Since I know Najam Sethi only from his writings, I am willing to bet on him, without questioning ``his personal ambition``.
And even if Najam did this by design, what other options you think a thinking and decent person has in Nawaz Sharif`s Pakistan? If anything, Najam seems to want to give Pakistanis the freedom they deserve, not subvert it.
``[L]eaderlessness``? You consider Nawaz Sharif and Benazir leaders? You`ve got to be joking, man!
#3 Posted by Godot on May 19, 1999 6:06:20 am
It`s very plausible that Najam Sethi, being as intelligent as he is, planned it all, and the government, being as intelligent as it is, fell right into his hands. Najam Sethi now commands a deep sympathy by the country`s intelligentsia and is probably a household name in Pakistan, a prerequisite for a national leader, not to mention the all-critical international attention he`s getting.
Well, good for him, and for Pakistan. Whether this incident is by accident or by design, I hope Najam Sethi gets to run Pakistan. Pakistan needs leaders like him. Then, only time will tell if his deeds are as good as his marvelous writings. For now, it is my most sincere hope that he turns out to be another Vaclav Havel.
Well, good for him, and for Pakistan. Whether this incident is by accident or by design, I hope Najam Sethi gets to run Pakistan. Pakistan needs leaders like him. Then, only time will tell if his deeds are as good as his marvelous writings. For now, it is my most sincere hope that he turns out to be another Vaclav Havel.
#2 Posted by sigalph235 on May 19, 1999 6:06:20 am
The author of the article proves a hypothesis well put by the late President Kennedy: freedom is indivisible; when one is enslaved, none is free. The abridgement of Mr Sethi`s liberties underlines the lack of freedom of the Lahoris to stand up for themselves and their own. Pakistan`s founding fathers, people like Mr Jinnah and Mr Liaquat Ali Khan, will be spinning in their graves knowing how much Pakistan has REGRESSED in terms of freedom since 1947. Indeed it is quite correct to say that personal liberties have contracted in Pakistan in the last semi century just as they have expanded everywhere else in the world. The land which was once ruled by lionhearted men is today ruled by cowards who have to assault a respectable Muslim woman in her own home to capture her husband against whom they have no charges. So much for the rule of Shari`a; in any proper polity ruled by Islamic law, such men who assaulted women would have been lashed at least eighty times if not worse. Or may be I have it wrong: perhaps the Shari`a we talk about in Pakistan is actually the Shari`a -e-Nawaz Sharif. Shame on such cowards! Maybe we should all send a large set of bangles to Nawaz Sharif, Mushahid Hussain, Gen. Musharraf, and the Taleban chief, I mean Pakistan chief, Rafiq Tarrar.
#1 Posted by ferozk on May 18, 1999 6:05:11 pm
A recent United Nations` conference in Geneva voted that democracy is the right of all people and every person in the world has a right to freedom of expression, the right to take part in political dissent and a right to be free from religious persecution. Only China and Cuba abstained from voting in favor of the resolution.
The delegates also noted that economic freedom does not consitute political freedom (a reference to Chinese economic reforms, but a lack of political reforms). This right to democracy is likely to be added with other rights in the UN Charter and consequently, to be further incorporated into other legal documents and texts on the issue.
It is amazing that just when the world is moving forward on the issue of human rights as a political right, Pakistan is determined to regress into a state of repression and seems willing to risk international alienation for the sake of its political leadership`s own vested interests.
For a complete text of the article, please go to www.iht.com for Tuesday`s edition.
The delegates also noted that economic freedom does not consitute political freedom (a reference to Chinese economic reforms, but a lack of political reforms). This right to democracy is likely to be added with other rights in the UN Charter and consequently, to be further incorporated into other legal documents and texts on the issue.
It is amazing that just when the world is moving forward on the issue of human rights as a political right, Pakistan is determined to regress into a state of repression and seems willing to risk international alienation for the sake of its political leadership`s own vested interests.
For a complete text of the article, please go to www.iht.com for Tuesday`s edition.
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