For Cricket Lovers Only!
Zeemax June 9, 1999
#35 Posted by ferozk on June 25, 1999 3:32:50 pm
Re: Zeemax
Thanks!
The quote you posted, was actually General George ``Blood and Guts`` Patton`s and did not belong to MacArthur. Patton said that to the American invasion troops prior to the Allied landings against the forces of Vichy France in North Africa near Oran, Algiers in early 1942.
My interest in military history comes from having relatives in the Pakistani armed forces and a deep abiding interest in the political history of this century. Since the two most defining events this century were the First World War and Second World War, which would to a greater degree would influence the rest of the century, I am an avid student of military history, because of my interests in those two major wars.
Military history is a fascinating companion to political history, because in the past all great political minds, Napoleon, Frederick the Great, Caesar, Chengiz Khan and Alexander made their marks as military leaders first before turning to politics. It was only in the aftermath of the folly of World War One that our present day disdain and cynism of military mind took root in our way of thinking.
Like the old bards used to say, ``there are only two enduring themes in this world and they belong to both love and war``.
Thanks!
The quote you posted, was actually General George ``Blood and Guts`` Patton`s and did not belong to MacArthur. Patton said that to the American invasion troops prior to the Allied landings against the forces of Vichy France in North Africa near Oran, Algiers in early 1942.
My interest in military history comes from having relatives in the Pakistani armed forces and a deep abiding interest in the political history of this century. Since the two most defining events this century were the First World War and Second World War, which would to a greater degree would influence the rest of the century, I am an avid student of military history, because of my interests in those two major wars.
Military history is a fascinating companion to political history, because in the past all great political minds, Napoleon, Frederick the Great, Caesar, Chengiz Khan and Alexander made their marks as military leaders first before turning to politics. It was only in the aftermath of the folly of World War One that our present day disdain and cynism of military mind took root in our way of thinking.
Like the old bards used to say, ``there are only two enduring themes in this world and they belong to both love and war``.
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#34 Posted by zeemax on June 25, 1999 2:08:31 am
Re FerozK :
How correct Gen Douglas MacArthur was.. Though my favorite of his quotations is `` No son of a bi * * * wins a war by dying for his country .. he wins the war by making the other son of a bi * * * die for HIS country ``
Correct above if it`s not accurate.
Where do you get your knowledge of history of warfare ? Impressed !
Zeemax
How correct Gen Douglas MacArthur was.. Though my favorite of his quotations is `` No son of a bi * * * wins a war by dying for his country .. he wins the war by making the other son of a bi * * * die for HIS country ``
Correct above if it`s not accurate.
Where do you get your knowledge of history of warfare ? Impressed !
Zeemax
#33 Posted by ferozk on June 24, 1999 2:45:58 pm
Sorry about that.....
The saying is : Skills learned on the playing field, on another day on a different field, will produce victory!
The saying is : Skills learned on the playing field, on another day on a different field, will produce victory!
#32 Posted by ferozk on June 24, 1999 2:43:02 pm
Re: Zeemax
US Navy SEALs took up this ``tradition`` from the United States Marine Corps, which came up with it during the Corps` trip to Libya, in 1792, to fight the Barbary Pirates. Incidently, this is where the Marine nom d` guerre ``Leathernecks`` derives from, because the Marines wore leather coverings around their necks to prevent sabre cuts etc by the enemy.
As to recovering their dead and wounded from the battlefield, that has more to do with respect for the fallen than it has anything to do with teamwork. This is not only applicable to the American military, but to all the armed forces in the world, including Indian and Pakistani.
However, your other point is valid, because team sports do teach basic leadership and problem solving skills, which are considered crucial in a combat situation. In fact, the American military academy at West Point, New York, has a sports motto, penned by General Douglas MacArthur, which states that skills learned on a playing field produce results, which on another day and on different field will bring victory!
``The skills learned on the fields of sport
US Navy SEALs took up this ``tradition`` from the United States Marine Corps, which came up with it during the Corps` trip to Libya, in 1792, to fight the Barbary Pirates. Incidently, this is where the Marine nom d` guerre ``Leathernecks`` derives from, because the Marines wore leather coverings around their necks to prevent sabre cuts etc by the enemy.
As to recovering their dead and wounded from the battlefield, that has more to do with respect for the fallen than it has anything to do with teamwork. This is not only applicable to the American military, but to all the armed forces in the world, including Indian and Pakistani.
However, your other point is valid, because team sports do teach basic leadership and problem solving skills, which are considered crucial in a combat situation. In fact, the American military academy at West Point, New York, has a sports motto, penned by General Douglas MacArthur, which states that skills learned on a playing field produce results, which on another day and on different field will bring victory!
``The skills learned on the fields of sport
#31 Posted by zeemax on June 24, 1999 1:37:12 am
SR ..
Your anology of a pack of dogs grudgingly accepted. You have forced me on the backfoot with an in-swinging yorker .. however, you have only commented on the corporate aspect of teamwork and not the military management, of which you have profound knowledge and interest. Are you aware that the US Navy Seals have NEVER left a single dead or wounded teammate behind during an operation,, regardless of impending peril, in their entire history ?
That kind of loyalty is inspired ONLY by teamwork. I`m sure you appreciate it`s an admirable quality.
Zeemax
Your anology of a pack of dogs grudgingly accepted. You have forced me on the backfoot with an in-swinging yorker .. however, you have only commented on the corporate aspect of teamwork and not the military management, of which you have profound knowledge and interest. Are you aware that the US Navy Seals have NEVER left a single dead or wounded teammate behind during an operation,, regardless of impending peril, in their entire history ?
That kind of loyalty is inspired ONLY by teamwork. I`m sure you appreciate it`s an admirable quality.
Zeemax
#30 Posted by SR on June 23, 1999 9:30:00 am
Yes, Super toiletbowl as well as any other World Saucer or World Plate or World Cup, its all the same rediculous nonsense. Yes, I know you corporate types really get hung up on this `team spirit` mantra. To me its the essential difference between herd mentality and individualism. Its the dog-people as opposed to the cat-people. Dogs are pack-hunters, cats are solitary. Dogs are co-dependent, hirerchial, obedient, subservient, either dependent or controlling (depending on where they fit in the pecking-order), have very little independent initiative without the need for approval. They are the model your corporate drones emulate in their lock-step march in the corporate corridors, wearing their pin-striped suits. Robotic, unimaginative and pathetic. But that is, sadly, the majority. They are the borg, and yes, I realize, resistence is futile. They will assimilate all. I for one shall die fighting on my feet instead of living in servitude on my knees.
May the devil take all the astro-turf to hell.
...SR
May the devil take all the astro-turf to hell.
...SR
#29 Posted by zeemax on June 23, 1999 2:23:35 am
SR :
Lost a little bit here .. If you have no interest in Cricket, how does that make it ``Much ado about nothing....and Good riddance!`` ? Tsk . Tsk ..
Cricket World Cup is like the Super Bowl to us Pakistanis. Is the Super Bowl too ``much ado about nothing`` ?
There was an excellent article in Fortune Magazine about ``Teams``. Taking a cue from team sporting, competetive business now has ``Teams`` instead of `` Departments``. Practically all of silicon valley follows this philosophy of management. Even Military Management is based on Teams. Reason being teams are geared towards Leadership, coordination, motivation, Loyalty, and a drive to win. All of which are key elements of success.
Cricket then, is not only a game. It`s a whole way of Life !
Zeemax
Lost a little bit here .. If you have no interest in Cricket, how does that make it ``Much ado about nothing....and Good riddance!`` ? Tsk . Tsk ..
Cricket World Cup is like the Super Bowl to us Pakistanis. Is the Super Bowl too ``much ado about nothing`` ?
There was an excellent article in Fortune Magazine about ``Teams``. Taking a cue from team sporting, competetive business now has ``Teams`` instead of `` Departments``. Practically all of silicon valley follows this philosophy of management. Even Military Management is based on Teams. Reason being teams are geared towards Leadership, coordination, motivation, Loyalty, and a drive to win. All of which are key elements of success.
Cricket then, is not only a game. It`s a whole way of Life !
Zeemax
#28 Posted by SR on June 22, 1999 12:54:41 pm
Let`s come back to our main subject.
I am so glad this stupidity is finally over and done with, at least for this time around. I`ve heard that the Pakis did make it to the finals but, all the mashallahs, subhaanallas, alhumdulillahs and inshallahs notwithstanding, they got the dog-crap beaten out of them.
Much ado about nothing....and Good riddance! Let`s get on with life.
...SR
I am so glad this stupidity is finally over and done with, at least for this time around. I`ve heard that the Pakis did make it to the finals but, all the mashallahs, subhaanallas, alhumdulillahs and inshallahs notwithstanding, they got the dog-crap beaten out of them.
Much ado about nothing....and Good riddance! Let`s get on with life.
...SR
#27 Posted by zeemax on June 18, 1999 1:25:20 am
SR
Read (C) instead of (D)in the first para. Regret the typo. And if you choose to hide behind an allegation of ``Kaj Bahsi``, that`s being trivial !
Read (C) instead of (D)in the first para. Regret the typo. And if you choose to hide behind an allegation of ``Kaj Bahsi``, that`s being trivial !
#26 Posted by zeemax on June 18, 1999 1:25:20 am
SR :
a) Pakistan Rupee depreciated against US$ by 12 % year on year June 1998/99.
b) Pakistan Rupee appreciated against US$ by 22.5% year on year June 1998/99.
c) None of the above.
d) Both of the above.
The correct answer is (d) None of the above. Pakistan Rupee depreciated by 8.7% during the last fiscal year as I originally stated before this onslaught of ridicule(I thought Chowk had a policy against that ..) so I had to clobber you guys :-)
When I advised you to convert your money at 46 I knew the Govt. would not devalue the Rupee chasing the open market, but I did think the open rate may go to 75, hence my despondance at the time (I myself started buying $ at 53 and continued up to 60)But I have learnt a few things since then about the resilience of this economy. Foremost of this newly found wisdom is the nature of the open market in this country.
No one made a loss on their $ accounts just because of the exchange rate (most of these dollars were held by local residents and accumulated at an average rate of 36 ..), only those people lost who were obstinate and didn`t take my advice to convert :-)
As it has turned out, people who DIDN`T convert then @ 46 can convert now @ 50 and get back into 88.50 dollars at open market for every original $100; while people who DID convert then and invested in Rupee instruments can get $102 for each original $100 AFTER all taxation. This is given the interest differentials between the two currencies.
Was my advice wrong? If data doesn`t give you goosebumps ask and I shall send you detailed calculations.
Mr. Walker is barely my companion nowadays .. more interested in Siri Paya and B`BQ in Lahore!Notwithstanding the terrific Lahori Muttyars !
Zeemax
a) Pakistan Rupee depreciated against US$ by 12 % year on year June 1998/99.
b) Pakistan Rupee appreciated against US$ by 22.5% year on year June 1998/99.
c) None of the above.
d) Both of the above.
The correct answer is (d) None of the above. Pakistan Rupee depreciated by 8.7% during the last fiscal year as I originally stated before this onslaught of ridicule(I thought Chowk had a policy against that ..) so I had to clobber you guys :-)
When I advised you to convert your money at 46 I knew the Govt. would not devalue the Rupee chasing the open market, but I did think the open rate may go to 75, hence my despondance at the time (I myself started buying $ at 53 and continued up to 60)But I have learnt a few things since then about the resilience of this economy. Foremost of this newly found wisdom is the nature of the open market in this country.
No one made a loss on their $ accounts just because of the exchange rate (most of these dollars were held by local residents and accumulated at an average rate of 36 ..), only those people lost who were obstinate and didn`t take my advice to convert :-)
As it has turned out, people who DIDN`T convert then @ 46 can convert now @ 50 and get back into 88.50 dollars at open market for every original $100; while people who DID convert then and invested in Rupee instruments can get $102 for each original $100 AFTER all taxation. This is given the interest differentials between the two currencies.
Was my advice wrong? If data doesn`t give you goosebumps ask and I shall send you detailed calculations.
Mr. Walker is barely my companion nowadays .. more interested in Siri Paya and B`BQ in Lahore!Notwithstanding the terrific Lahori Muttyars !
Zeemax
#25 Posted by SR on June 17, 1999 9:40:13 pm
Zeemax
[``…No comment from SR and evasive tactics …Pakistan Rupee depreciated / appreciated against US$ (twelve months- June 1998/99) Which one is true ?…``]
I can just picture you sitting at your desk, handle in hand with your Black friend Mr. Walker. You are howling and laughing and thumping the table with your other hand after writing those lines. While poor Johhny is being drained dry you are behaving like the fisherman who just hooked a big fat bass. Well, you may think it`s a bass, but my friend what you have is really just a minnow. Its Mr. Walker`s company that has you all excited by the tug on the line. Okay, enough metaphor, I`ll answer your question. But before that I exercise my right of `tamheed` not because I want to reward your `kaj-behsi` by taking it seriously, but out of respect for the public forum where some readers may not have any clue as to the perverse humor and convoluted mind game that instigated this line of argument.
You seem to imply that the Pakistani Rupee has in fact appreciated in value against the US Dollar. Most people when confronted with that proposition would have a tendency to not think any further and simply reject the idea. However, you have a smattering of data that can demonstrate otherwise. And that is what you are having fun with.
This reminds me of a story about an international globe trotting constantly-on-the-move corporate executive (such as your former self) who became very concerned about how he could reduce his odds of being on board an airlines that could be carrying a terrorist`s bomb. After PanAm 103 his concern turned into panic so he employed a statistician to find out how he could reduce those odds. ``Carry a bomb in your brief case,`` said the statistician, ``that will reduce your odds of being in a plane with TWO bombs``. While quite true theoritically, this obviously changed nothing. The moral of this story is that the language of numbers has skewed nuances and we must look at the total picture to make sense of what the numbers tell us. You sometimes can state facts truthfully yet obscure the reality. You can count individual trees and distort the view of the forest.
Yes, it is true that if you take a certain day in June, 1998 (I forget which date it was when the rupee fluctuated to its worst depth against the dollar) as the arbitrarily picked starting point of a twelve month period and recount the `recovery` (you chose the misleading term `appreciation`) against the US currency, you will find a great propaganda one-liner, which while absolutely true, does not tell us anything about the over all picture. It makes a partical recovery (or adjustment) look like appreciation.
I remember in the late-mid seventies the bank exchange rate of the US dollar against the Soviet Rubble was zero point seven five rubbles (that is, seventy-five kopeck) equal to one American dollar. The black market rate, however, was five rubbles to a dollar. The Soviet propagandists used to correctly state, in private, that the black market amounts to a very low percentage of the total and does not really make any difference (you make the same argument). Officially, they even denied that the black market existed. But, of course, we are not complaining about the communist slavery of the Soviets. We are discussing the free land of the pure, where the local currency is on the a meteoric rise. Twenty two percent in a twelve month period. Maashaallah...chasham-e-bud-dour.
If you keep up this pace, in less than five years the rupee should double in value. Maybe it is on its way back to the end of the nineteen eighties rate of around thirty rupees to the dollar, or perhaps it won`t just stop there, it will keep appreciating to the late seventies rate of between fifteen and twenty to the dollar. Perhaps it will reach the rate of Rs. 9.90 against the dollar which the Quaid-e-Awam himself decreed when he became chief martial law administrator. But why stop there, why not take the rate of four rupees and eighty paisa per dollar of the pre-1969 crisis? (For those reader who were still in heaven at the time, or were too young to remember, The 1969 crisis was the one that led to the 1970 crisis that further led to the 1971 crisis - also called Bengal crisis --, which is sometimes talked about but not discussed.)
This is the kind of sales-promotion gimmick talk that stock market `advisory services` use while touting their `high rate of return` on investment. This is a view from the rear view mirror and it is distorted. Looking backwards one can find many such statistical `artifacts`. Its called `fishing` and sometimes you do hook a bass.
...SR
[``…No comment from SR and evasive tactics …Pakistan Rupee depreciated / appreciated against US$ (twelve months- June 1998/99) Which one is true ?…``]
I can just picture you sitting at your desk, handle in hand with your Black friend Mr. Walker. You are howling and laughing and thumping the table with your other hand after writing those lines. While poor Johhny is being drained dry you are behaving like the fisherman who just hooked a big fat bass. Well, you may think it`s a bass, but my friend what you have is really just a minnow. Its Mr. Walker`s company that has you all excited by the tug on the line. Okay, enough metaphor, I`ll answer your question. But before that I exercise my right of `tamheed` not because I want to reward your `kaj-behsi` by taking it seriously, but out of respect for the public forum where some readers may not have any clue as to the perverse humor and convoluted mind game that instigated this line of argument.
You seem to imply that the Pakistani Rupee has in fact appreciated in value against the US Dollar. Most people when confronted with that proposition would have a tendency to not think any further and simply reject the idea. However, you have a smattering of data that can demonstrate otherwise. And that is what you are having fun with.
This reminds me of a story about an international globe trotting constantly-on-the-move corporate executive (such as your former self) who became very concerned about how he could reduce his odds of being on board an airlines that could be carrying a terrorist`s bomb. After PanAm 103 his concern turned into panic so he employed a statistician to find out how he could reduce those odds. ``Carry a bomb in your brief case,`` said the statistician, ``that will reduce your odds of being in a plane with TWO bombs``. While quite true theoritically, this obviously changed nothing. The moral of this story is that the language of numbers has skewed nuances and we must look at the total picture to make sense of what the numbers tell us. You sometimes can state facts truthfully yet obscure the reality. You can count individual trees and distort the view of the forest.
Yes, it is true that if you take a certain day in June, 1998 (I forget which date it was when the rupee fluctuated to its worst depth against the dollar) as the arbitrarily picked starting point of a twelve month period and recount the `recovery` (you chose the misleading term `appreciation`) against the US currency, you will find a great propaganda one-liner, which while absolutely true, does not tell us anything about the over all picture. It makes a partical recovery (or adjustment) look like appreciation.
I remember in the late-mid seventies the bank exchange rate of the US dollar against the Soviet Rubble was zero point seven five rubbles (that is, seventy-five kopeck) equal to one American dollar. The black market rate, however, was five rubbles to a dollar. The Soviet propagandists used to correctly state, in private, that the black market amounts to a very low percentage of the total and does not really make any difference (you make the same argument). Officially, they even denied that the black market existed. But, of course, we are not complaining about the communist slavery of the Soviets. We are discussing the free land of the pure, where the local currency is on the a meteoric rise. Twenty two percent in a twelve month period. Maashaallah...chasham-e-bud-dour.
If you keep up this pace, in less than five years the rupee should double in value. Maybe it is on its way back to the end of the nineteen eighties rate of around thirty rupees to the dollar, or perhaps it won`t just stop there, it will keep appreciating to the late seventies rate of between fifteen and twenty to the dollar. Perhaps it will reach the rate of Rs. 9.90 against the dollar which the Quaid-e-Awam himself decreed when he became chief martial law administrator. But why stop there, why not take the rate of four rupees and eighty paisa per dollar of the pre-1969 crisis? (For those reader who were still in heaven at the time, or were too young to remember, The 1969 crisis was the one that led to the 1970 crisis that further led to the 1971 crisis - also called Bengal crisis --, which is sometimes talked about but not discussed.)
This is the kind of sales-promotion gimmick talk that stock market `advisory services` use while touting their `high rate of return` on investment. This is a view from the rear view mirror and it is distorted. Looking backwards one can find many such statistical `artifacts`. Its called `fishing` and sometimes you do hook a bass.
...SR
#24 Posted by zeemax on June 17, 1999 11:27:11 am
SR/Amin Saleh :
No comment from SR and evasive tactics from you. Let me put the question in a multiple choice format which may be easier ..
a) Pakistan Rupee depreciated against US$ by 12 % year on year June 1998/99.
b) Pakistan Rupee appreciated against US$ by 22.5% year on year June 1998/99.
c) None of the above.
d) Both of the above.
Which one is true ? Your answer please.
Zeemax
No comment from SR and evasive tactics from you. Let me put the question in a multiple choice format which may be easier ..
a) Pakistan Rupee depreciated against US$ by 12 % year on year June 1998/99.
b) Pakistan Rupee appreciated against US$ by 22.5% year on year June 1998/99.
c) None of the above.
d) Both of the above.
Which one is true ? Your answer please.
Zeemax
#23 Posted by Amin Saleh on June 17, 1999 10:27:28 am
Zeemax:
1)That is why they call the numbers games
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
2) I don`t think you invest in capital markets abroad because if dividends drive share prices I am sure you would not invest in the likes of Intel and Microsoft or for that matter any other high tech company.
What is classified as undistributable, is undistributable only as far as dividends are concerned. Look at Golden Arrow Mutual Fund that reduced its paid up capital from Rs.10 to Rs. 5. Which is why in companies ordinance they have a term (And Reduced).
So if the company can not make proper use of its funds it will find a way to return it back to its owners, either as return of capital, buybacks or dividends. These are just various forms of distribution. I think you should look to the spirit of the distribution rather than the form. I understand the accounting conventions of which you are speaking but the world has evolved further than the constraints of the accounting dictates. The key focus of finance is engineering.
3) Foreign Exchange Act still exists and as you mention they were only amendments done. The act was not done away with.
4) Strong arm tactics are still abound. No remitting over $10K without getting big brothers permission. Try to buy $1K and you will get ``Sorry we have run out of US Dollars`` come back tomorrow. Price is a medium that put supply and demand into equilibrium.
God why I am saying all this as according to SK you are just yanking my chain.
This is the end no more conversation on this topic from my side.
Have a hearty laugh on my account.
Best wishes.
1)That is why they call the numbers games
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
2) I don`t think you invest in capital markets abroad because if dividends drive share prices I am sure you would not invest in the likes of Intel and Microsoft or for that matter any other high tech company.
What is classified as undistributable, is undistributable only as far as dividends are concerned. Look at Golden Arrow Mutual Fund that reduced its paid up capital from Rs.10 to Rs. 5. Which is why in companies ordinance they have a term (And Reduced).
So if the company can not make proper use of its funds it will find a way to return it back to its owners, either as return of capital, buybacks or dividends. These are just various forms of distribution. I think you should look to the spirit of the distribution rather than the form. I understand the accounting conventions of which you are speaking but the world has evolved further than the constraints of the accounting dictates. The key focus of finance is engineering.
3) Foreign Exchange Act still exists and as you mention they were only amendments done. The act was not done away with.
4) Strong arm tactics are still abound. No remitting over $10K without getting big brothers permission. Try to buy $1K and you will get ``Sorry we have run out of US Dollars`` come back tomorrow. Price is a medium that put supply and demand into equilibrium.
God why I am saying all this as according to SK you are just yanking my chain.
This is the end no more conversation on this topic from my side.
Have a hearty laugh on my account.
Best wishes.
#22 Posted by zeemax on June 16, 1999 4:59:22 pm
On second thought let me re-phrase that question :
Q : Has the Pakistan Rupee depreciated by 12 % or appreciated by 22.5% year on year June 1998/99?
This is fun .. maybe I can turn this into an Inami Scheme ..
Q : Has the Pakistan Rupee depreciated by 12 % or appreciated by 22.5% year on year June 1998/99?
This is fun .. maybe I can turn this into an Inami Scheme ..
#21 Posted by zeemax on June 16, 1999 4:59:22 pm
Amin Saleh / SR:
Quote:``
I am sorry but that is the most absurd thing that I have read. I would persume that you do not have any financial back ground for such a statement. ``Share premiums or capital reserves``. Pray tell me where do they come from and what difference would it make if buybacks are made from current or accumulated income. all money belongs to shareholders and I do not see the distinction between one accounting category versus another.``
Unquote
Well SR has commented upon my background in rather charitable terms so I`ll ``Cease and Desist`` as Lord SR wishes. However by way of education, I`ll only clarify a couple of points :
1) The difference between share premium/capital reserves versus accumulated income is the former are Non-Distributable reserves i.e. these cannot be distributed as dividends while Accumulated Income is meant for distribution as dividend. If treasury stock is allowed out of accumulated income then listed companies will get a further excuse not to pay dividends. Any premium on issue of shares can ONLY be used by law to float further capital, bonus shares, rights issues and so forth but NOT as cash didvidend. You may be confusing non-listed public companies/private companies with Listed public companies which are very tightly regulated by the SEC.
2)The Foreign Exchange act was amended by legislation titled ``Liberalization of Foreign Exchange Act`` during the first tenure of Nawaz Sharif.
3)The Interbank Floating Rate on date of unification was 50/50.50 and has been used for reference. Later fluctuations have not been taken into account as Rupee is now fully floating WITHIN the economy and fluctuations are normal. Even if your indicated rate of 51.90 is taken, the percentage loss of value of Pak Rs will be what .. 12 % ? Even that`s okay considering only half a year was spent in fire-fighting here and the economy only functioned for six months in 1998/1999.
Conversely, $ was at 65 in the open market as you say in June 1998 and now is around 53.
So has the Rupee appreciated by 22.50 % ?
Appreciate an answer to the last para by either you or SR, whoever figures it out first.
Zeemax
Quote:``
I am sorry but that is the most absurd thing that I have read. I would persume that you do not have any financial back ground for such a statement. ``Share premiums or capital reserves``. Pray tell me where do they come from and what difference would it make if buybacks are made from current or accumulated income. all money belongs to shareholders and I do not see the distinction between one accounting category versus another.``
Unquote
Well SR has commented upon my background in rather charitable terms so I`ll ``Cease and Desist`` as Lord SR wishes. However by way of education, I`ll only clarify a couple of points :
1) The difference between share premium/capital reserves versus accumulated income is the former are Non-Distributable reserves i.e. these cannot be distributed as dividends while Accumulated Income is meant for distribution as dividend. If treasury stock is allowed out of accumulated income then listed companies will get a further excuse not to pay dividends. Any premium on issue of shares can ONLY be used by law to float further capital, bonus shares, rights issues and so forth but NOT as cash didvidend. You may be confusing non-listed public companies/private companies with Listed public companies which are very tightly regulated by the SEC.
2)The Foreign Exchange act was amended by legislation titled ``Liberalization of Foreign Exchange Act`` during the first tenure of Nawaz Sharif.
3)The Interbank Floating Rate on date of unification was 50/50.50 and has been used for reference. Later fluctuations have not been taken into account as Rupee is now fully floating WITHIN the economy and fluctuations are normal. Even if your indicated rate of 51.90 is taken, the percentage loss of value of Pak Rs will be what .. 12 % ? Even that`s okay considering only half a year was spent in fire-fighting here and the economy only functioned for six months in 1998/1999.
Conversely, $ was at 65 in the open market as you say in June 1998 and now is around 53.
So has the Rupee appreciated by 22.50 % ?
Appreciate an answer to the last para by either you or SR, whoever figures it out first.
Zeemax
#20 Posted by SR on June 16, 1999 11:18:05 am
Zeemax:
[``…It must be kept in mind that the local open market rates on which many analysts base their opinions (including Bloomberg) are highly mis-leading and must not be used for serious analysis. … It would actually make no difference at all if all open market forex dealers were shut down. …open market rate is irrelevant in the overall economic set-up of the country being only 2-3% of the total forex turnover. It does have a psychological aspect though…``]
I cannot believe my eyes. I have even pinched myself to see if I was actually awake. You, of all people, Zeemax the former international banker, financier, inter-bank forex trader, stockmarket analyst, how can you possibly write any of this? These are the kinds of arguments which you used to tear to shreds. Last summer in Karachi when I sought your advice you agreed that I should close my account, take the loss, and withdraw the funds at Rs. 46 because you had no confidence left. What has changed? I`m sorry, but I happen to know you too well and refuse to believe that you are serious about any of this nonsense. Unless, of course, you`ve had a stroke or are getting senile in your golden years. :) I think you are just bored stiff and are inventing these kock-and-bull arguments to amuse yourself at the expense of the chowk readership. What`s going on? Why this ``kaj-behsi?``
…SR
(Sorry for exposing your background, but I thought it can be done safely without compromising your identity. I just couldn`t stand people thinking that you were an ignorant `jahil`. An image you seem hell bent on projecting. I suggest you start taking Ginsing and vitamin E.)
[``…It must be kept in mind that the local open market rates on which many analysts base their opinions (including Bloomberg) are highly mis-leading and must not be used for serious analysis. … It would actually make no difference at all if all open market forex dealers were shut down. …open market rate is irrelevant in the overall economic set-up of the country being only 2-3% of the total forex turnover. It does have a psychological aspect though…``]
I cannot believe my eyes. I have even pinched myself to see if I was actually awake. You, of all people, Zeemax the former international banker, financier, inter-bank forex trader, stockmarket analyst, how can you possibly write any of this? These are the kinds of arguments which you used to tear to shreds. Last summer in Karachi when I sought your advice you agreed that I should close my account, take the loss, and withdraw the funds at Rs. 46 because you had no confidence left. What has changed? I`m sorry, but I happen to know you too well and refuse to believe that you are serious about any of this nonsense. Unless, of course, you`ve had a stroke or are getting senile in your golden years. :) I think you are just bored stiff and are inventing these kock-and-bull arguments to amuse yourself at the expense of the chowk readership. What`s going on? Why this ``kaj-behsi?``
…SR
(Sorry for exposing your background, but I thought it can be done safely without compromising your identity. I just couldn`t stand people thinking that you were an ignorant `jahil`. An image you seem hell bent on projecting. I suggest you start taking Ginsing and vitamin E.)
#19 Posted by Amin Saleh on June 16, 1999 9:19:25 am
Zeemax
1) I have visited the site that you have suggested. This was the home page, so I took the liberty of going to the budget speech on the following site:
http://www.cbr.gov.pk/Budget/index.html
Unfortunately this document under item 40 (the same one I pointed out yesterday) carried the same content, which is,
quote:
the incoming passenger should pay duties on their accompanies and unaccompanies baggages in foreign exchange
unquote
This mentions all incoming passengers and not just tourists or visitors. Which means that if a Pakistan is to go on a trip and on his return was to bring some dutiable item he will have to pay in foreign currency. The question is where would he get the foreign currency. Obviously either from the interbank or open market since he would not be earning abroad (an assumption).
So the issue is that its not just on vehicles that will draw foreign exchange but other imports also. Now the issue is not that means much (since if we are to believe the press the interbank rate is about Rs.51.90 vs open market rate of Rs.53.25 see http://www.dawn.com/daily/19990616/forex.htm). But the issue is the message it gives. If the government wants more dollars than what it may get from the interbank market, it should intervene directly in the open market (nobody is stopping it) and if it wants to raise import duty by 2.60% (53.25/51.9) then it should just go outright and raise the duty, but it should stop doing thing in a convoluted manner.
2) I am not clear where you are getting your current unified exchange rate. As mentioned above the current rupee rate for international trade finance (not open market) is Rs.51.9/$. Even if we see one year point from May 28, 98, i.e., May 28, 99 the rate on that day was 51.79. Which beg the question what is your source of information.
I would like to clarify that Bloomberg does not quote open market rates (money exchangers) but only quotes rates by banks which basically means they restrict their information to the inter bank rates.
Dismissing the open market rate as being trivial tantramounts to denying peoples choice for choosing where they want to invest. Today we deny the citizens where to invest (or atleast try at our peril) and tomorrow we will try to compromise on what they can consume (drive white Suzuki Mehran cars only).
You have to realize there was a market before the advent of Kalia and Kalia and there will be a market after the closure of the exchanges. What is more important is that by rationalizing the financial sector and its instruments the government has to create credibility with the users of financial instruments.
I would also suggest that you may read the letters to the editors one of which complained about the unavailability of US$ at the quoted rate. The issue is that the determination of US$ rates is based on the supply and demand factors and any SBP strong arm tactics would only result in the creation of parallel exchange market. The open market rate did not jump to Rs.65 on day one but moved to that rate over several days. The main cause of it was the fact that people had lost confidence in the government and were willing to take a loss (withdrawing their deposits at Rs.46 and buy at Rs.65) and moved their money away from the arms of SBP.
2) Please read the Foreign Exchange Act of 1956 which prohibits holding of bank accounts in foreign countries with more than $100. Yes they can hold foreign currency accounts only in Pakistan. Furthermore, how is a person supposed to create an asset other than by purchasing in the open market which you have already condemned.
3) The 1.5 or 2% return the banks were offering to its customers would be the same that these individual would be able to earn abroad with institutions of superior credit rating. The SBP would offer 5% to the Banks which does not mean that the customers would get the 5% rate as there is the cost of intermediation. However, we have now substituted international banks with AA credit with AAA guarantees from the likes of FDIC (upto $100K US or C$ 60K from CDIC) rating for one which is rated SD (selective default) by S&P. Please invest at your own peril. Capital Flight would continue.
4) Perquistes have been taxed and they are now considered as any other income which basically means it does not matter if they are part of the basic salary or allowances.
quote:
62)
iii) At present, perquisites of employees drawing salary above Rs. 300,000 are being taxed lightly at a reduced rate. Thus, a person enjoying higher emoluments suitably couched in salary and perquisites pays less tax than a person drawing salary with no or little perquisites. It is, therefore, proposed that perquisites and salary may be taxed at similar rates.
source:
http://www.cbr.gov.pk/Budget/index.html
unquote
4) No agricultural income tax is currently leviable and no such tax seems to be leviable in the near future. With a 2/3 majority the Federal government is willing to amend the constitution they way it deems fit but when the point comes about agri tax they conveniently say its constitutional. Give me a break.
5)
quote:
5)The reserves condition for treasury stock is because the majority of listed companies have a habit of not paying divividends at all. So treasury stock can only be bought from share premiums or capital reserves, and not from current or accumulated income.
unquote
I am sorry but that is the most absurd thing that I have read. I would persume that you do not have any financial back ground for such a statement. ``Share premiums or capital reserves``. Pray tell me where do they come from and what difference would it make if buybacks are made from current or accumulated income. all money belongs to shareholders and I do not see the distinction between one accounting category versus another.
1) I have visited the site that you have suggested. This was the home page, so I took the liberty of going to the budget speech on the following site:
http://www.cbr.gov.pk/Budget/index.html
Unfortunately this document under item 40 (the same one I pointed out yesterday) carried the same content, which is,
quote:
the incoming passenger should pay duties on their accompanies and unaccompanies baggages in foreign exchange
unquote
This mentions all incoming passengers and not just tourists or visitors. Which means that if a Pakistan is to go on a trip and on his return was to bring some dutiable item he will have to pay in foreign currency. The question is where would he get the foreign currency. Obviously either from the interbank or open market since he would not be earning abroad (an assumption).
So the issue is that its not just on vehicles that will draw foreign exchange but other imports also. Now the issue is not that means much (since if we are to believe the press the interbank rate is about Rs.51.90 vs open market rate of Rs.53.25 see http://www.dawn.com/daily/19990616/forex.htm). But the issue is the message it gives. If the government wants more dollars than what it may get from the interbank market, it should intervene directly in the open market (nobody is stopping it) and if it wants to raise import duty by 2.60% (53.25/51.9) then it should just go outright and raise the duty, but it should stop doing thing in a convoluted manner.
2) I am not clear where you are getting your current unified exchange rate. As mentioned above the current rupee rate for international trade finance (not open market) is Rs.51.9/$. Even if we see one year point from May 28, 98, i.e., May 28, 99 the rate on that day was 51.79. Which beg the question what is your source of information.
I would like to clarify that Bloomberg does not quote open market rates (money exchangers) but only quotes rates by banks which basically means they restrict their information to the inter bank rates.
Dismissing the open market rate as being trivial tantramounts to denying peoples choice for choosing where they want to invest. Today we deny the citizens where to invest (or atleast try at our peril) and tomorrow we will try to compromise on what they can consume (drive white Suzuki Mehran cars only).
You have to realize there was a market before the advent of Kalia and Kalia and there will be a market after the closure of the exchanges. What is more important is that by rationalizing the financial sector and its instruments the government has to create credibility with the users of financial instruments.
I would also suggest that you may read the letters to the editors one of which complained about the unavailability of US$ at the quoted rate. The issue is that the determination of US$ rates is based on the supply and demand factors and any SBP strong arm tactics would only result in the creation of parallel exchange market. The open market rate did not jump to Rs.65 on day one but moved to that rate over several days. The main cause of it was the fact that people had lost confidence in the government and were willing to take a loss (withdrawing their deposits at Rs.46 and buy at Rs.65) and moved their money away from the arms of SBP.
2) Please read the Foreign Exchange Act of 1956 which prohibits holding of bank accounts in foreign countries with more than $100. Yes they can hold foreign currency accounts only in Pakistan. Furthermore, how is a person supposed to create an asset other than by purchasing in the open market which you have already condemned.
3) The 1.5 or 2% return the banks were offering to its customers would be the same that these individual would be able to earn abroad with institutions of superior credit rating. The SBP would offer 5% to the Banks which does not mean that the customers would get the 5% rate as there is the cost of intermediation. However, we have now substituted international banks with AA credit with AAA guarantees from the likes of FDIC (upto $100K US or C$ 60K from CDIC) rating for one which is rated SD (selective default) by S&P. Please invest at your own peril. Capital Flight would continue.
4) Perquistes have been taxed and they are now considered as any other income which basically means it does not matter if they are part of the basic salary or allowances.
quote:
62)
iii) At present, perquisites of employees drawing salary above Rs. 300,000 are being taxed lightly at a reduced rate. Thus, a person enjoying higher emoluments suitably couched in salary and perquisites pays less tax than a person drawing salary with no or little perquisites. It is, therefore, proposed that perquisites and salary may be taxed at similar rates.
source:
http://www.cbr.gov.pk/Budget/index.html
unquote
4) No agricultural income tax is currently leviable and no such tax seems to be leviable in the near future. With a 2/3 majority the Federal government is willing to amend the constitution they way it deems fit but when the point comes about agri tax they conveniently say its constitutional. Give me a break.
5)
quote:
5)The reserves condition for treasury stock is because the majority of listed companies have a habit of not paying divividends at all. So treasury stock can only be bought from share premiums or capital reserves, and not from current or accumulated income.
unquote
I am sorry but that is the most absurd thing that I have read. I would persume that you do not have any financial back ground for such a statement. ``Share premiums or capital reserves``. Pray tell me where do they come from and what difference would it make if buybacks are made from current or accumulated income. all money belongs to shareholders and I do not see the distinction between one accounting category versus another.
#18 Posted by zeemax on June 16, 1999 1:50:36 am
Amin Saleh :
1) I visited the Dawn site carrying Finance Minister`s speech. Para 76 refers to the import duty on vehicles as I stated. Para 40 refers to payment of hotel bills and duties on baggage by foreign nationals (visitors/tourists)in foreign exchange. All other import duties will continue to be paid in local currency. You may verify this on www.cbr.gov.pk.
2)The calculation is as follows : Rate on May 28 1998 (Freeze date)= $1/46, Current unified rate $1/50. Percentage change = 8.7% on base rate of $1/46, i.e. 4/46%=8.7%.
A more accurate calculation will be to work it the other way around i.e. if Rs 46 bought $1 on May 28, 98` (@Rs.1=$.022) and now buys only 92 cents(@.020) then the percentage change would be 9%.
Above rates are the official import/export and conversion rates for $ a/c holders.It must be kept in mind that the local open market rates on which many analysts base their opinions (including Bloomberg) are highly mis-leading and must not be used for serious analysis. The reason being that the open market (cash, hawala)volume is no more than $ 3-5 million per day, which can be manipulated easily by any single broker or investor. This is the reason that when $ crossed Rs. 60/-in the open market the State bank applied arm twisting tactics and the rate swiftly came down to 52/-. It would actually make no difference at all if all open market forex dealers were shut down. They`re being kept open only to keep an avenue open for home remittances other than banks.The point made here is that the open market rate is irrelevant in the overall economic set-up of the country being only 2-3% of the total forex turnover. It does have a pyschological aspect though.
Pakistan`s currency is ring-fenced because of not being convertible on the capital account. You`re correct about this being the reason for the Asian crisis. But you`re mistake re fredom to hold foreign assets. Pakistanis can hold any amount of foreign assets and bank accounts, non-taxable, though they have to declare them if so required at any time.
The recent SBP measure is again a sound measure both for the banks and customers. The banks were charging a 1% handling fee on cash deposits to forex accounts, and giving a return of no more than 1.5 to 2% by placing these funds with their foreign branches/correspodants, resulting in capital flight. Now these funds will remain in the country`s reserves and the customer will get a higher return after deduction of bank`s intermediation costs.
3)An oversight on my part. In fact the perquisites have not been aditionally taxed. Rather, the post retirement perquisites and benefits to senior Govt. employes have been withdrawn.
4)Perhaps with evolvement of a better assesment system for agri incomes with consensus of provinces, the agri tax can be implemented. No such system exists at the moment.
5)The reserves condition for treasury stock is because the majority of listed companies have a habit of not paying divividends at all. So treasury stock can only be bought from share premiums or capital reserves, and not from current or accumulated income.
Zeemax
1) I visited the Dawn site carrying Finance Minister`s speech. Para 76 refers to the import duty on vehicles as I stated. Para 40 refers to payment of hotel bills and duties on baggage by foreign nationals (visitors/tourists)in foreign exchange. All other import duties will continue to be paid in local currency. You may verify this on www.cbr.gov.pk.
2)The calculation is as follows : Rate on May 28 1998 (Freeze date)= $1/46, Current unified rate $1/50. Percentage change = 8.7% on base rate of $1/46, i.e. 4/46%=8.7%.
A more accurate calculation will be to work it the other way around i.e. if Rs 46 bought $1 on May 28, 98` (@Rs.1=$.022) and now buys only 92 cents(@.020) then the percentage change would be 9%.
Above rates are the official import/export and conversion rates for $ a/c holders.It must be kept in mind that the local open market rates on which many analysts base their opinions (including Bloomberg) are highly mis-leading and must not be used for serious analysis. The reason being that the open market (cash, hawala)volume is no more than $ 3-5 million per day, which can be manipulated easily by any single broker or investor. This is the reason that when $ crossed Rs. 60/-in the open market the State bank applied arm twisting tactics and the rate swiftly came down to 52/-. It would actually make no difference at all if all open market forex dealers were shut down. They`re being kept open only to keep an avenue open for home remittances other than banks.The point made here is that the open market rate is irrelevant in the overall economic set-up of the country being only 2-3% of the total forex turnover. It does have a pyschological aspect though.
Pakistan`s currency is ring-fenced because of not being convertible on the capital account. You`re correct about this being the reason for the Asian crisis. But you`re mistake re fredom to hold foreign assets. Pakistanis can hold any amount of foreign assets and bank accounts, non-taxable, though they have to declare them if so required at any time.
The recent SBP measure is again a sound measure both for the banks and customers. The banks were charging a 1% handling fee on cash deposits to forex accounts, and giving a return of no more than 1.5 to 2% by placing these funds with their foreign branches/correspodants, resulting in capital flight. Now these funds will remain in the country`s reserves and the customer will get a higher return after deduction of bank`s intermediation costs.
3)An oversight on my part. In fact the perquisites have not been aditionally taxed. Rather, the post retirement perquisites and benefits to senior Govt. employes have been withdrawn.
4)Perhaps with evolvement of a better assesment system for agri incomes with consensus of provinces, the agri tax can be implemented. No such system exists at the moment.
5)The reserves condition for treasury stock is because the majority of listed companies have a habit of not paying divividends at all. So treasury stock can only be bought from share premiums or capital reserves, and not from current or accumulated income.
Zeemax
#17 Posted by Amin Saleh on June 15, 1999 12:06:28 pm
Zeemax
quote:
1) The requirement for import duty to be paid in foreign exchange has solely been levied on motor vehicles.
unquote:
Please refer to the following website:
http://www.dawn.com/events/bud1999-2000/speech.htm
Payment in foreign exchange
40. In order to earn foreign exchange it has been decided that all foreigners should pay their hotel bills in foreign exchange. This amount will be deposited by the management of hotel in the State Bank at inter-bank rates.In addition, the incoming passenger should pay duties on their accompanies and unaccompanies baggages in foreign exchange. In the future customs duty on cars will also be paid in foreign exchange. I will present its details later.
quote:
Pakistan has not lost faith in it`s currency, which has only depreciated by 8.7 % despite the severe crises of 1998. In comparison, Indonesian currency depreciated by 75 % and Thai currency by
54.5% after their respective crises.
unquote
Please advise me how this 8.7% was calculated. According to Bloomberg Financial Information the exchange rate was Rs.44/$ on Jan 2, 98 and by December 25 it stood at Rs.49.85/$. On June 11 it was quoted as 51.74. So to sum up, 1998 errosion was about 13.3% and to date it would be 17.6%.
Ofcourse, you do have to consider that while the Indonesian and Thai economies did not have capital flow restrictions, Pakistan does not allow its citizens to freely hold foreign asset (i.e. abroad).
Infact, the SBP is so tempramental that it initially allowed the banks to invite fresh FC deposits in July 98 and allowed them to place deposits abroad. And now forces them to place funds with SBP at below market rates (below from the sense of the credit rating of Pakistan).
Pakistan should build up foreign exchange by pursuing prudent policies and not by coersion. It needs to improve its credibility with the investors and citizens as a whole. Adhoc decisions keep people afraid of committment which is only resolved with higher risk premiums.
quote:
2) Three tax slabs have been introduced for individual taxable incomes over Rs. 500,000/- (almost Rs. 42,000 a month) which does not cause additional burden on general populace. The rationale is to encourage corporatization and thus documentation of the economy. Under the previous slabs it was beneficial for businesses not to incorporate themselves or rather form sole proprietorships etc., which do not have audit requirements. The new slabs are - 500,001 to 700,000= 25 %, 700,001 to 1,000,000 = 30 %, and above 1,000,000 = 35 %.
3)Tax on perquisites too does not cause any burden on the general populace. Corporate employees in any case are compensated by their respective emloyers for these increases.
unquote
So the corporates are supposed to compensate its employees for governments stupidities. This increases the cost of doing business for the company rendering it cost ineffective in the international markets.
And its very interesting to see that those who draw a high salary are not part of the general populace but those that might be making crore of rupees from agricultural income are...
quote:
Agri tax is highly controversial and even if implemented will disappoint versus collection from
industry. Since industrial progress yields revenue in many forms i.e. import duties, sales tax, excise and so forth, the Agri tax if implemented is estimated to yield only a fraction of that. Further, it`ll be a highly contentious issue as regards distribution to provinces re their share. So the Govt. has for the time being left it to provincial Govts as they choose, and concentrating on incentives to industry instead.
unquote
Again its the governments ineptitude. If they cannot get their officers to go to the rural areas to collect taxes then why not just collect more and more taxes from its taxpayers in the cities.
And Agri taxes that are currently defined are a poor disguise of property tax. It has no relationship with how much income is earned from the land but only expected earning capacity (similar to estimated rental value of house property).
quote
5) The main issue to be decided for treasury stock is whether to allow companies to buy their stock
below par value, which would deprive common investors. A decision on this matter will be reached soon. In general, treasury stock will boost the equity markets.
unquote
SEC regulations for stock buyback runs into 10s of pages outline all possible conditions that have to be met before undertaking this activity. In Pakistan`s case the company has to set aside reserves. what sort of a condition is that.
quote:
Let me clarify that Institutional investors have not been exempted from income tax, rather only the
withholding tax.
unquote
I stand corrected.
quote:
1) The requirement for import duty to be paid in foreign exchange has solely been levied on motor vehicles.
unquote:
Please refer to the following website:
http://www.dawn.com/events/bud1999-2000/speech.htm
Payment in foreign exchange
40. In order to earn foreign exchange it has been decided that all foreigners should pay their hotel bills in foreign exchange. This amount will be deposited by the management of hotel in the State Bank at inter-bank rates.In addition, the incoming passenger should pay duties on their accompanies and unaccompanies baggages in foreign exchange. In the future customs duty on cars will also be paid in foreign exchange. I will present its details later.
quote:
Pakistan has not lost faith in it`s currency, which has only depreciated by 8.7 % despite the severe crises of 1998. In comparison, Indonesian currency depreciated by 75 % and Thai currency by
54.5% after their respective crises.
unquote
Please advise me how this 8.7% was calculated. According to Bloomberg Financial Information the exchange rate was Rs.44/$ on Jan 2, 98 and by December 25 it stood at Rs.49.85/$. On June 11 it was quoted as 51.74. So to sum up, 1998 errosion was about 13.3% and to date it would be 17.6%.
Ofcourse, you do have to consider that while the Indonesian and Thai economies did not have capital flow restrictions, Pakistan does not allow its citizens to freely hold foreign asset (i.e. abroad).
Infact, the SBP is so tempramental that it initially allowed the banks to invite fresh FC deposits in July 98 and allowed them to place deposits abroad. And now forces them to place funds with SBP at below market rates (below from the sense of the credit rating of Pakistan).
Pakistan should build up foreign exchange by pursuing prudent policies and not by coersion. It needs to improve its credibility with the investors and citizens as a whole. Adhoc decisions keep people afraid of committment which is only resolved with higher risk premiums.
quote:
2) Three tax slabs have been introduced for individual taxable incomes over Rs. 500,000/- (almost Rs. 42,000 a month) which does not cause additional burden on general populace. The rationale is to encourage corporatization and thus documentation of the economy. Under the previous slabs it was beneficial for businesses not to incorporate themselves or rather form sole proprietorships etc., which do not have audit requirements. The new slabs are - 500,001 to 700,000= 25 %, 700,001 to 1,000,000 = 30 %, and above 1,000,000 = 35 %.
3)Tax on perquisites too does not cause any burden on the general populace. Corporate employees in any case are compensated by their respective emloyers for these increases.
unquote
So the corporates are supposed to compensate its employees for governments stupidities. This increases the cost of doing business for the company rendering it cost ineffective in the international markets.
And its very interesting to see that those who draw a high salary are not part of the general populace but those that might be making crore of rupees from agricultural income are...
quote:
Agri tax is highly controversial and even if implemented will disappoint versus collection from
industry. Since industrial progress yields revenue in many forms i.e. import duties, sales tax, excise and so forth, the Agri tax if implemented is estimated to yield only a fraction of that. Further, it`ll be a highly contentious issue as regards distribution to provinces re their share. So the Govt. has for the time being left it to provincial Govts as they choose, and concentrating on incentives to industry instead.
unquote
Again its the governments ineptitude. If they cannot get their officers to go to the rural areas to collect taxes then why not just collect more and more taxes from its taxpayers in the cities.
And Agri taxes that are currently defined are a poor disguise of property tax. It has no relationship with how much income is earned from the land but only expected earning capacity (similar to estimated rental value of house property).
quote
5) The main issue to be decided for treasury stock is whether to allow companies to buy their stock
below par value, which would deprive common investors. A decision on this matter will be reached soon. In general, treasury stock will boost the equity markets.
unquote
SEC regulations for stock buyback runs into 10s of pages outline all possible conditions that have to be met before undertaking this activity. In Pakistan`s case the company has to set aside reserves. what sort of a condition is that.
quote:
Let me clarify that Institutional investors have not been exempted from income tax, rather only the
withholding tax.
unquote
I stand corrected.
#16 Posted by zeemax on June 15, 1999 1:54:36 am
Re : Amin Saleh, Ras Siddiqui
I`m working on the budget document, however since it takes a while before an article is posted, I`ld like to reply briefly to the points brought up by you :-
1) The requirement for import duty to be paid in foreign exchange has solely been levied on motor vehicles. Since an excess capacity exists for motor vehicle manufacturing in Pakistan this step would help the local industry. The cars imported right now into Pakistan are invariably the luxury variety i.e. BMW, Mercedes and 4x4 vehicles which are not produced here, so the importers of these cars fall into the topmost income bracket.For overseas Pakistanis this should not cause any additional expense. Mind you all other levies on vehicles import i.e. sales tax, income tax and CVT have been abolished.
Pakistan has not lost faith in it`s currency, which has only depreciated by 8.7 % despite the severe crises of 1998. In comparison, Indonesian currency depreciated by 75 % and Thai currency by 54.5% after their respective crises.
Pakistan has to pursue all reasonable avenues to build up foreign exchange in order not to fritter away the time gained through donor agencies.
2) Three tax slabs have been introduced for individual taxable incomes over Rs. 500,000/- (almost Rs. 42,000 a month) which does not cause additional burden on general populace. The rationale is to encourage corporatization and thus documentation of the economy. Under the previous slabs it was beneficial for businesses not to incorporate themselves or rather form sole proprietorships etc., which do not have audit requirements. The new slabs are - 500,001 to 700,000= 25 %, 700,001 to 1,000,000 = 30 %, and above 1,000,000 = 35 %.
3)Tax on perquisites too does not cause any burden on the general populace. Corporate employees in any case are compensated by their respective emloyers for these increases.
4)Zila tax and Octroi has been abolished to simplify tax structure and increase revenue through these sources which has been mostly been misappropraited by corrupt officals and contractors for collection. For example, the octroi revenue is estimated to be in excess of Rs. 500 crore while the Govt. was only getting around Rs. 50 crore from the contractors.
Agri tax is highly controversial and even if implemented will disappoint versus collection from industry. Since industrial progress yields revenue in many forms i.e. import duties, sales tax, excise and so forth, the Agri tax if implemented is estimated to yield only a fraction of that. Further, it`ll be a highly contentious issue as regards distribution to provinces re their share. So the Govt. has for the time being left it to provincial Govts as they choose, and concentrating on incentives to industry instead.
5) The main issue to be decided for treasury stock is whether to allow companies to buy their stock below par value, which would deprive common investors. A decision on this matter will be reached soon. In general, treasury stock will boost the equity markets.
6)Let me clarify that Institutional investors have not been exempted from income tax, rather only the withholding tax. This means they will not have to pay income tax in advance on receipt of profit from TFC`s but rather pay it on their final assessment. This would help their cash flow to some extent. The rationale is to encourage a shift of corporate bank borrowing to corporate debt instruments thus making bank credit cheaper.
Loving Pakistan certainly does not mean loving the Govt. or the budget, but it certainly means loving the State, and an understanding of the vital isues here.
I`m working on the budget document, however since it takes a while before an article is posted, I`ld like to reply briefly to the points brought up by you :-
1) The requirement for import duty to be paid in foreign exchange has solely been levied on motor vehicles. Since an excess capacity exists for motor vehicle manufacturing in Pakistan this step would help the local industry. The cars imported right now into Pakistan are invariably the luxury variety i.e. BMW, Mercedes and 4x4 vehicles which are not produced here, so the importers of these cars fall into the topmost income bracket.For overseas Pakistanis this should not cause any additional expense. Mind you all other levies on vehicles import i.e. sales tax, income tax and CVT have been abolished.
Pakistan has not lost faith in it`s currency, which has only depreciated by 8.7 % despite the severe crises of 1998. In comparison, Indonesian currency depreciated by 75 % and Thai currency by 54.5% after their respective crises.
Pakistan has to pursue all reasonable avenues to build up foreign exchange in order not to fritter away the time gained through donor agencies.
2) Three tax slabs have been introduced for individual taxable incomes over Rs. 500,000/- (almost Rs. 42,000 a month) which does not cause additional burden on general populace. The rationale is to encourage corporatization and thus documentation of the economy. Under the previous slabs it was beneficial for businesses not to incorporate themselves or rather form sole proprietorships etc., which do not have audit requirements. The new slabs are - 500,001 to 700,000= 25 %, 700,001 to 1,000,000 = 30 %, and above 1,000,000 = 35 %.
3)Tax on perquisites too does not cause any burden on the general populace. Corporate employees in any case are compensated by their respective emloyers for these increases.
4)Zila tax and Octroi has been abolished to simplify tax structure and increase revenue through these sources which has been mostly been misappropraited by corrupt officals and contractors for collection. For example, the octroi revenue is estimated to be in excess of Rs. 500 crore while the Govt. was only getting around Rs. 50 crore from the contractors.
Agri tax is highly controversial and even if implemented will disappoint versus collection from industry. Since industrial progress yields revenue in many forms i.e. import duties, sales tax, excise and so forth, the Agri tax if implemented is estimated to yield only a fraction of that. Further, it`ll be a highly contentious issue as regards distribution to provinces re their share. So the Govt. has for the time being left it to provincial Govts as they choose, and concentrating on incentives to industry instead.
5) The main issue to be decided for treasury stock is whether to allow companies to buy their stock below par value, which would deprive common investors. A decision on this matter will be reached soon. In general, treasury stock will boost the equity markets.
6)Let me clarify that Institutional investors have not been exempted from income tax, rather only the withholding tax. This means they will not have to pay income tax in advance on receipt of profit from TFC`s but rather pay it on their final assessment. This would help their cash flow to some extent. The rationale is to encourage a shift of corporate bank borrowing to corporate debt instruments thus making bank credit cheaper.
Loving Pakistan certainly does not mean loving the Govt. or the budget, but it certainly means loving the State, and an understanding of the vital isues here.
#15 Posted by Amin Saleh on June 14, 1999 12:28:24 pm
Re: Zeemax
Quote:
Okay .. I like to write about Pak`s economics but many people like to hear only criticism when I
have many positive opinions .. so a litle disheartened with all the Paki bashing by our bretheren ..
nevertheless I`ll post something soon ... on the budget perhaps which was presented yesterday.
Unquote.
Most interested in your coverage of the following issues:
1) Has the government lost faith in its own currency when it requires import duty to be paid in hard currency.
2) No Tax increase budget has taxes maximum slab increased on individual, AOP and HUF from 20% to 30%.
3) No Tax increase budget has taxes on perquisites
4) No taxes on Agricultural income being touted as provincial matter yet zila tax is being abolished.
5) Treasury Stock introduced. Yet one year back the law minister feigned ignorance on this issue on chowk.com. Regulations surrounding this issue has not been completely addressed and therefore will not be effective from control and implementation point of view.
6) The government is still trying to work on identifying on the anomalies in the tax structure of instruments and continues to add more anomalies into the system (Institutional investors are exempt from taxes on TFCs).
Love or Leave Pakistan!!! equal Love the government equals Love the budget???
Quote:
Okay .. I like to write about Pak`s economics but many people like to hear only criticism when I
have many positive opinions .. so a litle disheartened with all the Paki bashing by our bretheren ..
nevertheless I`ll post something soon ... on the budget perhaps which was presented yesterday.
Unquote.
Most interested in your coverage of the following issues:
1) Has the government lost faith in its own currency when it requires import duty to be paid in hard currency.
2) No Tax increase budget has taxes maximum slab increased on individual, AOP and HUF from 20% to 30%.
3) No Tax increase budget has taxes on perquisites
4) No taxes on Agricultural income being touted as provincial matter yet zila tax is being abolished.
5) Treasury Stock introduced. Yet one year back the law minister feigned ignorance on this issue on chowk.com. Regulations surrounding this issue has not been completely addressed and therefore will not be effective from control and implementation point of view.
6) The government is still trying to work on identifying on the anomalies in the tax structure of instruments and continues to add more anomalies into the system (Institutional investors are exempt from taxes on TFCs).
Love or Leave Pakistan!!! equal Love the government equals Love the budget???
#14 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on June 13, 1999 12:12:14 pm
Good article. Unfortunately like many others I`m
kind of distracted these days with the Kashmir
situation.
Zeemax, I`d like to see something written on
Pakistan here on CHOWK that offers a viewpoint that it will survive and is not falling apart.
Critics will have their fill on CHOWK but I`m
the kind of person who likes to believe in the
strength of a people. And believe me, in spite
of all the adversity, Pakistanis are an amazing
lot and as long as they retain hope, Pakistan
can have a bright future (beyond Cricket even).
Ras
#13 Posted by zeemax on June 13, 1999 8:26:23 am
Re : hielme
Okay .. I like to write about Pak`s economics but many people like to hear only criticism when I have many positive opinions .. so a litle disheartened with all the Paki bashing by our bretheren .. nevertheless I`ll post something soon ... on the budget perhaps which was presented yesterday.
Okay .. I like to write about Pak`s economics but many people like to hear only criticism when I have many positive opinions .. so a litle disheartened with all the Paki bashing by our bretheren .. nevertheless I`ll post something soon ... on the budget perhaps which was presented yesterday.
#12 Posted by hielme on June 13, 1999 3:24:47 am
Dreams are dreams after all ...
But atleast u got the half part right about the pakistan team gettin thru ...
All thats needed now is 2 consecute wins by any one of these four teams and they have the cup
irrespective of who plays who ...
And common says that its anyones cup from here on ...
Pakistan have an edge because they have had a string of 3 defeats before the last game and so are like to win at least one of the next 2 matches ...
If in the final ... the odds are again in pakistans favour because they did come thru the premilinaries with the maximum points ...
A great article though Zeemax ... how about one on the conomics of this country and one on the politics....
would love to hear your views
cheers
But atleast u got the half part right about the pakistan team gettin thru ...
All thats needed now is 2 consecute wins by any one of these four teams and they have the cup
irrespective of who plays who ...
And common says that its anyones cup from here on ...
Pakistan have an edge because they have had a string of 3 defeats before the last game and so are like to win at least one of the next 2 matches ...
If in the final ... the odds are again in pakistans favour because they did come thru the premilinaries with the maximum points ...
A great article though Zeemax ... how about one on the conomics of this country and one on the politics....
would love to hear your views
cheers
#11 Posted by ferozk on June 12, 1999 2:59:15 pm
Re: NasreenK # 10
There was a match? Against whom? Who won? As to sarcasm after the match, that would depend on whom our petulent players played against. I still think that the odds are against the warriors of Allah in this tournment. If perchance they won against some team from a banana republic, that still does not mean they can defeat Australia or India or South Africa to win.
Whatever happens, the game fixing boys from Pakistan had a good innings in this tournment!
There was a match? Against whom? Who won? As to sarcasm after the match, that would depend on whom our petulent players played against. I still think that the odds are against the warriors of Allah in this tournment. If perchance they won against some team from a banana republic, that still does not mean they can defeat Australia or India or South Africa to win.
Whatever happens, the game fixing boys from Pakistan had a good innings in this tournment!
#10 Posted by NasreenK on June 11, 1999 1:52:28 pm
Re FerozeK
Really? You sounded petulant not sarcastic. How about some sarcasm after today`s match?
Really? You sounded petulant not sarcastic. How about some sarcasm after today`s match?
#9 Posted by zeemax on June 11, 1999 9:50:10 am
Re : JR
Thanks. Very encouraging comments. I hope I can connect with readers on other subjects too.
Rgds.
Thanks. Very encouraging comments. I hope I can connect with readers on other subjects too.
Rgds.
#8 Posted by zeemax on June 11, 1999 9:50:10 am
Re : SR .. Well I got so worked up arguing about Pak economy / nuke test and so forth that I fell asleep and had this dream. And Yes .. hun aish karan dey eahoey maidan reh gaey nain ..
Cheers Mate !
Cheers Mate !
#7 Posted by JR on June 10, 1999 3:42:19 pm
I cannot but lavish praise for this wonderful piece. You have captured the essence of what it means to be a true cricket fan. I think the title is appropriate. Those non-fans should stay out, bail out and bowl out of this exclusive terrain that is sacred to the cricket fan. I could not help feeling exactly in tune with you. Good work, keep it up. A writer must connect with his/her readers and you have.
#6 Posted by SR on June 10, 1999 2:39:58 pm
``For Cricket Lovers Only`` you claim. Well, that completely rules me out yet I cannot help but notice with amusement whence commeth your jollies these days. Surely, I am a spoilsport to interrupt your wet-dream about, of all things, cricket -- ah, how age alters a man`s libido! -- by reminding you that no matter how well the white clad buffoons (or are they wearing different color clothes now?) juggle the red ball (or is it yellow now?), the reality in the streets of subcontinent shall remain unchanged. The solutions to the problems of the average person will be no closer to realization the morning after the dream. In ancient Rome the masses were kept amused by a constant display of gladiator `sports` while the rot, corruption, and injustice went on. Not very far have we come over two thousand years, have we?
Enjoy your dream, for being awake may be a real nightmare. (Good to see a contribution from you.)
cheers...SR
Enjoy your dream, for being awake may be a real nightmare. (Good to see a contribution from you.)
cheers...SR
#5 Posted by ferozk on June 10, 1999 2:11:43 pm
Re: NasreenK
Ever heard of sarcasm......I was joking and you need to chill hard before you have a stroke or something!
Re: Temporal
Agreed! Just as the articles on the infamous Delhi-Lahore bus, this is another example of overkill on Chowk. Ten days to go before this nightmare ends.
Ever heard of sarcasm......I was joking and you need to chill hard before you have a stroke or something!
Re: Temporal
Agreed! Just as the articles on the infamous Delhi-Lahore bus, this is another example of overkill on Chowk. Ten days to go before this nightmare ends.
#4 Posted by temporal on June 9, 1999 11:03:57 pm
Zeemax:
Thanks for sharing your dream with us. Let me share mine with you.
I had a dream.
I had a dream that I was going to dream about World Cup..........then
I had a dream that the world cup was on.
I had a dream that of the thirteen articles on Chowk`s Page 1 less than half were about cricket.
I had a dream that if one more article on cricket appears, I would stop dreaming.
And then your dream appeared. That is 7 out of 13. Oh how I wish you had kept sleeping.
..................yawn, time for me to dream again.
regards
Thanks for sharing your dream with us. Let me share mine with you.
I had a dream.
I had a dream that I was going to dream about World Cup..........then
I had a dream that the world cup was on.
I had a dream that of the thirteen articles on Chowk`s Page 1 less than half were about cricket.
I had a dream that if one more article on cricket appears, I would stop dreaming.
And then your dream appeared. That is 7 out of 13. Oh how I wish you had kept sleeping.
..................yawn, time for me to dream again.
regards
#3 Posted by NasreenK on June 9, 1999 7:23:34 pm
Re FerozeK
Sometimes I wonder if you even know about the things you write about. Did you see the matches Pakistan played against Australia and South Africa? Effortless???
The unforgiving nature of our cricket `fans` is more immature than the whole team put together!
Sometimes I wonder if you even know about the things you write about. Did you see the matches Pakistan played against Australia and South Africa? Effortless???
The unforgiving nature of our cricket `fans` is more immature than the whole team put together!
#1 Posted by ferozk on June 9, 1999 6:01:38 pm
Re: Zeemax
Yeah, right!!
Pakistan team is proving once again that it is the stuff of pipe dreams. When the going gets tough, the Pakistanis collapse under pressure. We, as a team do not lack any talents, but we sure lack some character in our players.
These over paid and over indulged players, on whom the Pakistani hopes rest, might end up in the finals by chance, but they will not be the victors that day! Pakistanis may want the glory, but they are not willing to fight for it; they want to win with the effortless ease of gods and that will never happen, because the gods love obsecure and hate the obvivious!
As to dreams, they have an unerring habit of turning into nightmares and Lord`s on the appointed day will not be an exception. At dusk on that day, there will be a flag flying, but it will be a tri-color and it will hide the cresent in the penumerba of its aura and Bob Hope will sing,``thanks for the memories`` and there will be rejoicing in Kargil, but it will not be about cricket!
Yeah, right!!
Pakistan team is proving once again that it is the stuff of pipe dreams. When the going gets tough, the Pakistanis collapse under pressure. We, as a team do not lack any talents, but we sure lack some character in our players.
These over paid and over indulged players, on whom the Pakistani hopes rest, might end up in the finals by chance, but they will not be the victors that day! Pakistanis may want the glory, but they are not willing to fight for it; they want to win with the effortless ease of gods and that will never happen, because the gods love obsecure and hate the obvivious!
As to dreams, they have an unerring habit of turning into nightmares and Lord`s on the appointed day will not be an exception. At dusk on that day, there will be a flag flying, but it will be a tri-color and it will hide the cresent in the penumerba of its aura and Bob Hope will sing,``thanks for the memories`` and there will be rejoicing in Kargil, but it will not be about cricket!
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