Lavishly Citrus

WOw! this keeps getting better and better. Shes interesting I must say-she chooses her words wisely, and him well hes a typical guy.. I love the thought patterns shown with Kamran.. Brilliant..

London is wonderful. Although I`ve only been there twice on brief visits, I really enjoyed the energy of the city. I have a tentative plan to visit a friend and migrant cousins from Karachi there in two months. I think it`ll be an interesting trip. (Next up for me, however, is a visit to your Boston for an American wedding next weekend.)

Unfortunately, I was not familiar with any of the famous people you mentioned. But I am now I suppose. Glad you had such a wonderful time.

I appreciate the deconstruction once again. There is less antipathy in this critique than in your previous ones. I must be growing on you. :)

Rubina wouldn`t use ``pungent``....you`re so right. I sat on that word, going back and forth for a while. Then decided to go ahead with it. Pungent. Pervasive. They seem redundant but they really are not. But I see what you mean because I myself felt that way once.

What happens next? Well, you`ll find out when the next and final piece is posted. :) Do Pakistani women like being able to claim the virgin and the vamp as their own? Some. The most interesting ones in my experience. The ones who get under your skin and leave their mark for a lifetime. My mother fears that one day I will marry one of these virgin/vamps. But there is more to life than the institution of marriage. What about an obsessive love affair? Sure it`s draining but it can be intoxicating too (can`t wait to see Stanley Kubrick`s ``Eyes Wide Shut`` which opens tomorrow in the US). For better or for worse (don`t you love the irony), it`s these virgin/vamps that make life so much more interesting for me. In love with these demure vixens only do I once again explore the fine line between love and hate.

-!Kamran!-

p.s. I would like a copy of ``Fishhooks``. I want to read it again and share it with a dear friend at UCLA who wants to read it for the first time. So, yes, please, Bina, do e-mail a copy to me. (Append aol.com to my chowk username).

I`m not sure about returning to the US, but I wouldn`t mind a stint in London. I was there this summer (my trip was one month, not two!), and oh, it was wonderful. I managed to meet Bapsi Sidhwa and Sara Suleri and a wonderful Pakistani writer called Aamer Husain who lives in Scotland and Meera Syal and and and...(an Asian writers` event at the Royal Festival Hall. I was in heaven).

As for Fishhooks, I have had it removed for personal reasons. I didn`t like the correspondence that it earned me - not Chowki comments but other stuff addressed to my personal mailbox. It made me uncomfortable. I`d be happy to send you a copy if you like, but I`ve withdrawn it for now from the public arena.

``Lavishly Citrus`` is good. A few elements which jarred me had a little bit to do with the unnaturalness of the dialogue, especially at the beginning, the part where R and K are discussing their jobs. It doesn`t sound like real dialogue; more like internal monologue split between two people, if that makes any sense. We usually don`t speak so gramatically correctly, we usually don`t use conjunctions as beautifully as you have in this sentence: ``The key is to keep clients happy and make them feel good about paying me the large amounts of money I bill them. And it`s not a simple task. But with enough practice, as with anything, you get good at it.`` Real dialogue is more haphazard, stilted, interrupted - and you get close to it down at the end, especially after the fight about the kiss. I guess it takes time to settle into a dialogue, whether written or real.

Also, I felt that Ruby and Kamran, although they are supposed to be two separate people, really speak with one voice. Similar sentence constructions, similiar vocabulary, similar rhythms and cadences to their speech. Call me picky, but it did strike me. Though Rubina is a plausible person, as I said earlier, I have a hard time imagining her using a word like ``pungent`` (have I spelled that correctly?). Or perhaps it seemed out of place in the sentence, ``The pungent smell of citrus was so pervasive``. Seemed a bit repetitive, clumsy.

But the overall tone of the conversation is very, very real to me. Prickly, a bit defensive, at times surprisingly sweet, it does capture very well the intricacies of two people getting to know each other. What happens next?

Oh, and I think Pakistani women like being able to claim the psychological realms of both the virgin and the vamp. Makes life so much more interesting...

Welcome back, Bina. Where did you go on your vacation anyway? I was going to say ``ever thought of returning to the US permanently?`` but then thought, hell, she gets 2 month vacations....why would she ever want to come back.

``I read this again. And I like it. It`s touching. As for a detailed critique, Kamran, I won`t give it to you unless you ask for it... *grin *``

Thanks. Happy I could touch you all the way over in Pakistan. Of course, I want a detailed Bina-critique ala mode.

``Rubina seems totally plausible as a person. You guys need to widen your definition of ``Pakistani woman``. They`re not all blushing maidens on the vines of life.``

No, they`re certainly not that....in my experience. Almost wish sometimes that they`d fake it for a change. :)

-!Kamran!-

p.s. ``Fishhooks`` disappeared. The links point to ``Peter Pan`` or did I already tell you that?

OK, I`m back, in beautiful (ugly) Karachi and feeling a lot better for the break.

I read this again. And I like it. It`s touching. As for a detailed critique, Kamran, I won`t give it to you unless you ask for it... *grin *

Rubina seems totally plausible as a person. You guys need to widen your definition of ``Pakistani woman``. They`re not all blushing maidens on the vines of life.

B.

Re: AmirM

``Are kamran and Rubina a typical example of a prospective Pakistani couple, or are they quite unique.``

Not that typical in my experience. That`s what made is so interesting.

``Do they herald a turning point in Pakistani society`s stance, or is the liberated independent Pakistani female (Rubina) an aspect of everyday life.``

Rubina is not as aspect of everyday life. But as more and more Paki girls are trying to become Rubinas, more and more are becoming the anti-Rubina as well...introverted, conservative, veiled in a shroud of dogmatic, sense-dulling, religion (but I`m sure they`d argue that they are still independent and liberated).

Re: arshiya

``Wow. I`m totally taken in by Rubina & kamran. Great character development through dialogue.``

Thanks. Rubina will move you before it`s all over.

Re: uzma

``the lines that used to be so sharply drawn no longer exist with the same clarity...and are seen by different people at different locations. don`t tell me who i am ...and i won`t tell you who you aren`t.``

I tend to agree with this logic. Desis are widely different in their beliefs and perspectives. Just look at the responses to this piece.

Re: Admirer

``kamran, u got patience man! got to admit that, i mean not only does one come up with great writing, one has to put up with the crap that follows it too!!!``

It`s get easier with time (as with anything else, I suppose). As Zehra once wisely pointed out, Chowk bashings are a rite of passage for the frequent author. Besides....none of this means much anyway....just words on a screen.

-!Kamran!-

for heaven`s sake, the topic of discussion is the article, if u guys want to strangle each other over american ethnic composition, GO ELSEWHERE! *wonder where the heck r the moderators! *

agree with the idea that this place does need light stuff along with the heavy things going on here, which is why this is the perfect piece.



kamran, u got patience man! got to admit that, i mean not only does one come up with great writing, one has to put up with the crap that follows it too!!! very interesting is what i would call ur work, if fiction u got great imagination, if a fact, believe me, u hit the mark alright!

Hello, is anyone out there?

Hmmm...mixed feelings to see this one posted.

Re: nighat

``Through the Paki grapevine, I`ve found that Kamran (not his real name, I`m told) may live in Florida or Georgia maybe. I think Rubina is 100% fictitious...what Pakistani girl sends x-rated cards to her prospective mate? Oh...also heard that he`s vacationing in California somewhere and doesn`t log-on on vacations so probably doesn`t even know his article`s posted. Am I good or what? Did I come close, Kamran?``

You`re not even close, Nighat. I was in California this week for business. Not vacation. ;) A pity though since my work was in Carmel, one of the most romantic places in this country.

Man, did I eat well....I had totally forgotten just how wonderful California restaurants are.

Re: EK

``kamran did u really live in mt. view? i live there and i know that bookstore.``

In fact, I worked in Mountain View (my office was on Castro Street) and lived in downtown San Francisco. Until last year. Printer`s is a great, little bookstore, isn`t it?

-!Kamran Akhtar!-

kamran did u really live in mt. view? i live there and i know that bookstore.

Re: star

mucho gracia amigo!

Re: Daring # 30

Let me see if I got the gist of your post. If I misread, I am sorry and just ignore this post! :)

If you think that I am comparing myself to whites, that is a pipe dream and I do not have the time to engage in that non-sense.

Do I want them to accept me; sure, but for who I am and what I want to be. Do I think I am superior to them? Yes; in some cases I do! If they want to feel superior to me, they can go right ahead and act smug, because this is a free country and everyone has a right to be a moron!

Will they accept me? No, but then again that is their problem and not mine. I am not here to please them or anyone, but to get on with my own life as best as I can. My friend, life is too short to worry about who likes us and who hates us and what we should be doing and how we should do it.

In my experince, the key to assimilation in America or elsewhere is telling these idiots to take their silly self-important opinions and put it, where the sun does not shine. Remember, if you act the victim, you will end up as the victim.
The soul of America, and an American, is based and sustained by individualism and that is the creed to have to follow to be a part of this country; be yourself, because if you are not, then you are just an imposter pretending to someone else and only person you are fooling is yourself!

What was Polonius` advice to his departing son:``..above all else, be true to thy own self``

Ciao!

RE: Ferozk

Right on target... some people think that just because they have Aryan blood, they are superior. Like the Sikhs.. ok so I accept that they must be descendants of Aryans, but that was like hundreds of years ago.... they still think they are superior or something than the rest of the Indians...... and the Pendos...... who think they are also the same. Ok so you consider yourself white, but would the real white accept you as white? try to make a believer out of them.

Well said Star, well said... correct me if I am wrong, but I don;t think you are Desi. Hey by the way, real nice article to read.. nothing against the article. By the way, nighat, why can`t Rubian exist? if American girls can do that, why can`t FOB paki girls?

Wow. I`m totally taken in by Rubina & kamran. Great character development through dialogue.

Re: Daring and Star

My point was ABCDs growing up in this country when they face assimilation problems it is with the mainstream white culture. Just because, despite changing demographics, it is the white culture that dominates (and will continue to for some time) the social, political and economic life here. How you get from this statement of fact, to the notion that I some how view whites as superior is beyond me. Not being an ABCD and planning on eventually returning to Pakistan (just because I like it better), I really don`t think I can be classified as one of those types. As for acting uppity; that nonsense has always been said of people that are successful in foreign cultures. Thus you have blacks who attack successful blacks for ``acting white``. It is precisely this ability to assimilate in to mainstream culture that has allowed some Indian/Pakistani immigrants to do spectacularly well in this country. I also fail to understand why it is that I should have more in common with Blacks and Hispanics than with Whites. If we were to share some cultural characteristics with any of the three (not that we really do) I would say it would be with the goras; after all they we did interact with them for a couple of hundred years. Once again I was never arguing for the superiority of the white culture; I was merely pointing outs its dominance in this country.

Re: nighat

``what Pakistani girl sends x-rated cards to her prospective mate? ``

then again, what prompts a Pakistani girl to dig up some desis background merely on the basis of one article? :)

Faraz

Re: Star # 23

Correct me, if I am wrong, but did not duBois suggest an economical social approach to the problem of blacks, but gave up in the end, because Jim Crow was not interested in, as you suggested, ``accepting`` the blacks into the mainstream (white)society?

In my opinion, Branch Ricky, the mangager of Brooklyn Dodgers, did more for social parity of blacks in America, when he signed Jackie Robinson as a player; the first black to play baseball in the majors. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X might have given the blacks political rights, but it was Robinson who really broke the color barrier in America and forced the white society to accept the blacks as equal, first on the playing field, and then later in America in general. Robinson also gave a headach to the followers of Nathan Bedford Forrest: the Klu Klux Klan from which they have never recovered!

The real acceptance in American society lies through its popular sports and then through politics.

In the case of Pakistanis stranded on these foreign shores, the trick is not being white or brown, but being colorless. It is true that demographically speaking America may not be white; it will be without color, because of the inter-racial marriages that will one day erase all notions of color by making everyone the same. The younger generation is going to be more color blind despite their parents` prejudices, because the future of the world will determined by information mobility, not by color, and that is an equal opportunity concept.

Thats why I love the internet, because it is blind to color and judges people on their merits, which is the first step in the complete empowerment of all as equals. (As soon as we can overcome the information gap between the elites and the disadvantage in the poor nations of the world.)

Incidently, here is a little triva for all you folks out there. Next time you run into some of these white ayran bigots, just remind them that the root of the word ``ayran`` comes from the Ariana Mountain range in Iran and true ayrans are the Iranians, a mutation of the word ``arian``, which the Greek historian Herodotus, travelling with Alexander`s army, used to describe the people who lived in that region.

Why do think Hitler, the apostle of racial purity, dispatched German doctors to region to determine the characterists of a true aryan and why the Shah of Iran was so pro German! People, we have more ayran bloodlines than most of the people who pretend to aryans in this land!

Great fun! Thanks for that second piece. Wierder things have happened in real life.

Re: aziz and daring

Through the Paki grapevine, I`ve found that Kamran (not his real name, I`m told) may live in Florida or Georgia maybe. I think Rubina is 100% fictitious...what Pakistani girl sends x-rated cards to her prospective mate? Oh...also heard that he`s vacationing in California somewhere and doesn`t log-on on vacations so probably doesn`t even know his article`s posted.

Am I good or what? Did I come close, Kamran?

;) nighat ;)

I dont know what is worse....whining about ``f#$%% up whites`` (as many of you so eloquently put it) or ``f#$%@ up`` pakis whining about fellow about ``f$$$$$ up`` pakis idolising ``f%$%$%$@# up whites``

The tolerance level is flattering....

Senor Faraz, you must be living in a different country.... America is fast changing, even the corporate climate! That is what I am trying to say, that fucked up Pakis just look at one thing, white and that is all... nothing else.. they look up to the white people... as if they are gods... they are fucked up morons............

Faraz:

How about keeping your comments limited to the story. If you like the story, go ahead and say so. If others do not like it, let them express their opinions.

There is no point in calling anyone names just because they do not agree with your point of view, on this story.

RE: AmirM

I will tell you what they are, they are bunch of FOBs who came here when they were about 15 and 12, and were totally overwhelmed by the openness and the sex, since the poor souls had been deprived of these since the beginnig. They had never seen white people, and were totally blown off after seeing them. So they decided that the only way we can be their friends, and get accepted was that they both act like ABCDs and talk bad about Pakistan and Pakistanis. senor Kamran, if you think that you are the coolest Paki, and that talking to girls and having a bunch of white friends, and making a six figure salary makes you cool, think again, there are lots better...............

Chill and peace.

Re: All the whiners

Would you please get off you soap boxes. If you don`t like the story fine, but do you have to imply that everything has to have a deeper meaning? In my opinion chowk needs some light hearted stuff every now then, some residents have a tendency to get big heads. And to the person who had to mention something about ``# * * * * *-up Pakis think[ing] that America is all about white people``? You must be living on a different planet, America is primarily a white country. Yings and Yangs notwithstanding. The primary cultural conflict most ABCDs feel growing up is with the Joe Schmoe/Apple pie culture, and not with Jose Martinez/beef burrito.

Re: Kamran

please keep us posted.

Faraz

mmmm.... loved it.. a bit late... this episode was but was aight. anyways, you never really otld about that kissing incident in detail.. but it is nice to note that there is some maturity in the conversation spiced up with some laudable retorts.

i like it

keep up the good work

and whatever happened to that karachi trip that is `still` hanging in the balance?

Chowk editors,

Wake up guys, I have been a part of this community since 97 and the level of writing keeps on deteriorating. Most replies are much more insightful and comprehensive as compared to the babbling of Mr. K. It seems to come straight out of English 101. We are not idiots, Okay!

kamran,

Thank you for this fascinating thread. I have found it to be not only entertaining, but also very thought provoking. (Ignore all these people criticising you, they are just jealous :)).

I guess the use of actual (?) dialogue makes for a more engaging and stimulating read.

And why do I think the topic is thought provoking: because it embodies far more than the lifestyles of two individuals. I see in it- and relate to- ABCDness, conflict in the writers mind arising from a perceived confusion of where s/he belongs (?) and consequently attempts to ascertain a `way of life` consistent with the prejudices of the east and west... or am I jut talking gobbledegook.

I dont think it is simply about Kamran and Rubina, it is more about how two Pakistanis (who are apparantly well versed in life) try to find their through these societal pressures. Pressures which each and every one of us has to deal with, as we develop through our lives in te west.For example, we have Rubina... who openly admits to having previous lovers...yet disapproves of drinking. Contradiction in terms? This is ABCDness, aint it? Are kamran and Rubina a typical example of a prospective Pakistani couple, or are they quite unique. Do they herald a turning point in Pakistani society`s stance, or is the liberated independent Pakistani female (Rubina) an aspect of everyday life. These are the questions I ask myself, as I attempt to overecome my own ABCDness.

Eagerly Looking forward to more intimations of Rubina and Kamran!

Amir

Man, just marry the chick and get it over with.

I`ve had the same conversations...in high school.

I`m smiling. Not the punch of the first one, I`ll have to go through it again, but there`s an impact there somewhere.

Boy, the longer you go between writing, the worse your language gets...vacation is corrupting me!!

B.

have to agree with ibn e sina. I thought trashy bestsellers were bad, this is way worse.

First of all, am I just seeing it or is Mr.Kamran actually supposed to be 100 times more well-read and cultured teacher of this woman, who has supposedly read nothing but Cosmo and Degas????

On the other hand our ABCD shams-ul-ulema Mr.Kamran has read Ghalib, Rumi, Iqbal, etc. And while gems of knowledge are flowing out of every word Mr.Kamran is saying, the girl is supposed to know of Rumi through Deepak Chopra? This is pathetic, so damn pathetic it makes me cry.

Khush kismat hain key aap beywafa nikle. Wafadaar to kut-tay hotay hain

At one end Mr.Kamran is a connoisseur of high-flying poetry of Ghalib, Iqbal and Rumi. On the other hand he is quoting this supposed she`r (out of metre, btw) which the girl finds funny.

Anyway this whole thing is incredibly sappy. I resisted my temptation to barf as I read it. As if this whole desi relationship topic hadn`t been beaten to death before, we have a story of an Allama Kamran sweeping a `dumb blonde` off her feet by quoting poetry. Second half seems to be a `charba` from Jackie Collins or something. Jeez! Grow up!

Noor

Does Chowk have nothing better to print than the private telephone conversations of a boy and a girl?

Hmm... so let me get this straight.. R lives 100 miles away from K.. and K lives in Dallas.. so that can only mean one thing, R lives in San Antonio.. and they could have gone down all the way to houston to the Galveston beach! R if you live in San Antonio, you are mine!!!

K: Well, someone has to look around once in a while...it was dark and late at the beach, y`know...you had your eyes shut the whole time so I...

I didn`t know there was a beach in Dallas !!!. In part I, K mentions that he is 100 miles from Rubina who is in Dallas. You also mentioned that Ruby takes Kamran to her apartment whichsjould be in Dallas!!!. Mr. Author, ``Mirch Masala`` is OK but it tells me a lot about you.

As R says :

``There are days when I feel so American, so assimilated...I feel I can almost marry a white man.``



and I say, ``Yeah but would a white man marry you`` Drums and tadadtishhh!!! (Audience break into a fit of laughter)

On the serious side, why do # * * * * *-up Pakis think that America is all about white people, they always say of marrying a ``white man`` or a ``White girl``, why, are the Hispanic and Black, or Asian, in other words the non whites, any less American than whites? Why are we so racist? I can`t help it if you people only see ``Tyrone`` or ``Pablo`` or

``Yang`` as the stereotypical ``Non - whites``, believe me there are lots who are better. Personally I am a very rasict person, I don`t like white people, actually I hate them. Another thing I find strange about #$$$$##-up ABCD`s is that they make fun of blacks, Asian and Hispanic. So do the whites, but they do so cuz they think they are superior, and what do these ABCD`s do, they look upto white people, and think of them as more superior than any other race, even theirs. Peace and chill!

Get a life

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This guy is, like, a teen-ager playing it out with an older woman or what?

I ignored the first part of this stupidity hoping that it would die quietly, but NO! So I have to say this: Can someone, anyone, stop this peurile, self-indulgent and downright irritating second-by-second diary of the self-absorbed, the shallow and the uninteresting? If I want a corny soap opera, I have plenty of T.V channels to choose from, I don`t need to come to Chowk to read this trash!

I wish the narrator had kept his thoughts to himself, at least then one could give him the benefit of the doubt. They took away whatever this reader was willing to grant. And worse, they weren`t even unintentionally humorous. But as they say he had to do it ...

Talking of Rumi and Ghalib: As if the downright inanity of the lives of these two characters wasn`t enough, Mr. K just had to talk about something he knows nothing about. Is nothing sacred anymore?? My advice, let these gentlemen be with those who can appreciate them, and Mr. K should just concentrate on flirting with twenty-something year olds with the minds of fourteen year olds.

thanks for the distinction...got me to chuckle too. :)

rizvi

This article is part 2 of ``Pakistani men just don`t know how ...``

A very lund-awakening article indeed! .