A Road To Siachen

NOW REPEAT AFTER ME. `Nuclear war is preferable to negotiated settlement` (German accent again). Feroz, you lead the chorus, i suspect you have a rather nice singing voice. Well, perhaps when you`ve had a few more drinks and are quite fully intoxicated you will give us ze pleasure? Ja?

Ze herd mentality. Nietzche. Peacenicks! Get it? Or are u all still scratching your heads? Well keep doing it, its a good way to check to see whether a) You have any hair left, and b) if the radioactivity has started effecting you yet.

Omar

`Did we at least git more o` `em? ` (with Southern drawl)

Omar`s comment upon hearing New Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Amritsar, Karachi, Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar and Quetta all got nuked about an hour ago.

Comment #2 folowing the news

Omar to young 18 year old son.

`Son, get a move on to the nearest sportin` goods store and the dept of enengy, we`re gonna go pick up a couple of those anti-radioactive suits, a couple of machettes, sporting rifles with sniper sights and some Evian along the way. Gonna go hunting, git us some pagan scalps. Ought` a be few among the living left who wanna join the dead. Giddy up Silver! Yee-haw!`

DRIVER WHERE U TAKIN` US ... ALL OF THE CHILDREN R INSANE! WAITING for the SUMMER RAIN ...

Yeah!

YEAH BABY! YEAHHHHH!!!

(All posts to be read in chronological order)

GIVE THE MASSES WHAT THEY WANT on both sides of the border. USE THE BOMB!

quote me freely,

Omar Mirza

LESS FRAYDOM, MORE TAXES. (with a harsh gutteral German accent). Its what the masses want. All wisdom comes from the masses. (Red Chinese communist philosophy). We must look to the masses for wisdom. All intellectuels to the fields, labor, will put you in touch with true wisdom. It will also furnish turnips for dinner (German accent, with Mao Cap on). To the fields! Some calluses on your hands comrade! (To show your decidcation to the masses). Nowadays we call it NEW LABOUR. To promote `Correct thinking`, one must .... consult F.K before posting any `obscence` view. He is now the official obscence view-clearer at Chowk (again, German, but slightly softer in ze throat).

F.K should heed his own words from an earlier post, `it is impossible to ever truly understand Omar.` But understanding me, is not relevant to the transfer of Kashmir to Paki sovereignity and whatever is deemed necessary to effect zis transfer, Indians screaming, kicking, wrenching their hair/turbans and gnashing their teeth, notwithstanding. Ja, Feroz, zis new weapon MUST be used! The good of humanity is foremost amongst our thoughts! May the force be with you!

regards,

Omar

f.K; Now while i`m at it (making suggestions for a better world), i also thought i`d add eradicating poverty and world hunger to my list. oh, yes, the universal brotherhood of man, thats my priority in life ya know, eliminating want and suffering. oh, YEAH! I`m planning on dedicating my life to doctors sans frontiers real soon. Oh, YEAH! Its what i really believe in. Nuke thy neighbour, to adapt a quote from Austin Powers (from `the Spy who shagged me`) YEAH BABY, YEAH!

India, GIVE IT UP Baby. Cause we r too `frightining to behold.` Lungi cladders across the border better watch out!

Omar a/k/a A.P 007

(devotee of the Karma Sutra and part time Kali-ma and monkey g-d idol worshipping fiend, blood suckin` hell raising, pagan skull cracking devil worshipper) For References refer to my old friend, F.K.:)

Re: fataquie # 51

First of all, there is no common sense justification for war or for its expenditure in both money and lives. The real costs of war are not measured in dead soldiers, but in ruined and shattered lives of families who have lost a loved one. Consequently, it does not really matter if Pakistan has a less of a war debt than India, because future generations, in both nations, will be paying for this faux pas for a long time to come in terms of hate, anger, and mutual recriminations.

You`re absolutely right. The future of Pakistan and India can be better served by investing in education than in missiles, but then again, this is what makes the tragedy of the sub-continent so bitter-sweet, because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided.

Re:OMAR1974 # 53

Omar, my friend, I am sorry to say the following, but your recent posts have left me with no choice, but to wonder about your levels of rationality. In the past, I had tried to be diplomatic, but since diplomatic tact does not seem to work, please allow me to be extermely blunt in my comments.

I can appreciate the emotional vortex, which the question of Kashmir engenders in people, but from reading your recent posts, it seems that you have completely lost your mind. I am specifically refering to your comment, which suggests that ``a nuclear war may be required`` to settle the issue of Kashmir. Do you have any inkling of what you seem to be advocating?

I think that it is utterly obscene to suggest such a scenrio and then to compound your arrogance by stating a willingness to accept the casualities, which such a course of action might accrue. What makes you think that you have a moral right to condone the murder of millions of people as being something acceptable? As if to show your own sense of rabid hatred on this issue, you are willing to legitimize the countless deaths of innocent human beings who have done you no harm. Who made you God, over their solitary existence, that you can so carelessly end their lives on the basis of your own indulgent personal whims? How dare you suggest this vulgarity, knowing fully well that you will suffer no ill consequences of such a disater while residing in the relative comfort of these United States.

I would like to know where you seem to get your sense of god-like authority, which allows you to judge persons as traitors and ask that their lives be nullfied to soothe your own sense of patriotism? I would like to know what devine inspiration made you God`s chosen avenger, which seems to bless you with an ability to act as a judge and jury over another human being and encourage his murder just to balm your own sense of a personal vanity?

Omar, I am extermely sorry to say this, but your hate filled and bitter posts only inspire a sense of deep disgust in me and when you suggest that human lives could be used as pawns to settle the issue of Kashmir and that murder is justified in the name of a cause, I have an urge to vomit, because I am sickened by such a blantant display of blind hatred. Your last few posts have been nothing more than a series of pure hate mongerings, which seem to cheapen the value of a human life by denying it its ordained sense of sanctity and by demonizing those who seem to disagree with you or do not seem share similar sentiments with your own sense of believes.

Omar, what makes most of your comments seem so absurd is that you are a highly intelligent person who has benefited from an excellent education from some of the world`s finest universities and yet, you have exhibted a sense of ignorance in your comments, which is simply frightening to behold and comprehend.

``Remember what the wise Jedi master Yoda once said: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side! :)``

I can see George Lucas` script writer sueing Yoda on this :-)

Here`s one more mundane:

Greed, propaganda & lies lead to Illusion, Illusion leads to megalomania, megalomania leads to adventurism and adventurism leads to downfall. Comprende ?

fataquie : Reply #: 50

`` ... the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.``

That is infinitely preferable to sending hapless soldiers to certain death on hare-brained strategies. The Indian Commander said that pakistan`s govt. has two statements on any issue -one for outsiders and one for domestic consumption. The bodies of brave pakistani soldiers who followed orders and lost their lives are in India at the moment. Pakistan is refusing to receive them openly since doing so would cause their `facts` turning to `fictions` - and so we hear of ``India trying to politicise the issue`` in the pakistani media. Can there be a greater shame for a nation ? - disowning its own sons who laid down their precious lives ?

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs?

Good question. I`m not sure how seriously you are asking this though (going by your mails). Also, are you asking this of others or to your own self. The former has no meaning at all.

If the British could leave Hong Kong, the French could be driven out of Algeria and Vietnam, the Israelis forced to negotiate with the Palestinians because of the intifada, the Serbs driven from Kosovo (their spiritual heartland), the U.S driven out of Vietnam, the Russians driven out of Aghanistan (the costs of which contributed to the collape of the USSR), and the IRA/Sein Fein and the British, Irish and N.Ireland gov (and basically all Catholic and Protestant groups) could agree to a cease fire and a political peace process, and Pakistan could be driven out East Pakistan, then what is India in the face of the resistence of the people of Kashmir and Pakistan? Its very simple, when the costs escalate, India will be forced to negotiate. Clearly, we have not yet reached the point where costs become intolerable and unsustainable for India. A nuclear war may be required. But whatever it takes, no matter how many people have to die (we really DON`T give a damn), we will prevail in the end, because right is on our side, as are principles. Have no doubts. The basic fact is that the Kashmiris don`t want to be part of India, and do what India may, it cannot change their national/ethnic/ religious sense of identity which is entirely alienated from Indian citizenship. This is a simple fact. Sooner or later India must come to terms with it. Controlling a hostile local population that actively supports action against the state is not a viable strategy in the long term for India. This is a basic fact. It is upto Pakistan and Pakistanis to insure the cost of India`s theft increases daily.

I propose the elimination of all traitors, starting with the puppet Chief minister of IOK, F.Abdullah. His swift death at the hands of determined muslims even at the cost of their own lives (martyrs) will energize our struggle like nothing else. It will also be a warning to other collaborators (the few Kashmiri muslims/x-militants India has recruited)that their fate will be same as meted out to Palestinian collaborators. There is no place to hide any longer. The world IS a global village. We`re gonna get ya. You won`t get a moments peace. No one can protect ya. Hey, the Tamils got Rajiv Gandhi. The Sikhs got Indira Gandhi. The muslims R GONNA GET F. Abdullah. Better believe it. Its a matter of time. His days are numbered. Watch the news.

And as for those Indians that keep bringing up India`s remaining muslim `problem` of co-existence to try to confuse the Kashmiri issue, frankly, all we are interested in is Kashmir, not Hyderabad Daccan etc, those people opted to stay in India, they are cut out to make compromises for the sake of coexistence, they are Indian citizens by choice. I don`t see what that issue, a purely internal Indian affair, has anything to do with the illegal occupation of Kashmir by India, where elections are rigged and produce 5% turnouts and there is no political legitimacy whatsoever of the brazen Indian occupation. India`s domestic problems are its omestic problems. We don`t give a hoot about them. Kashmir is Internationally recognized disputed territory. There is a clear difference between muslims in Bombay, and muslims in the vale of Kashmir. Better understand it.

Omar

Omar and Amit, I can understand your sense of passions in this matter. Yes, this is an emotional issue, but I would kindly ask you two gentlemen to refrain from excessive exhibitions of rancor and bitterness in your posts.

We can all go around calling each other names to our heart`s content, but at the end of the day we would have only managed to waste our time without even addressing the problem. Calling India or Pakistan names and praying for its citizens` death will not solve the issue, it will only create a sense of resentment, which will foster and merely nourish one group`s hatred for the other group.

Remember what the wise Jedi master Yoda once said: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side! :)

The influential Washington Post in an editorial captioned `Cooling Kashmir` on Thursday said that `India`s denial of the democratic benefit in Kashmir is what the dispute remains basically about. An initiative along this line would earn India rich tribute.`

To those who are bent on obfuscating the real issue by focusing on fundamentalism in Pakistan, its internal problems, the `Paki-mindset` etc, I think you should, as diplomatic circles would phrase it, `stop interfering in Pakistan`s internal domestic affairs`. Quite frankly, whatever Pakistan`s internal problems, Pakistanis (Secular and Fundamentalists alike) are by and large united on the Kashmir issue. The issue is quite simple. India as a nation is as guilty as a common horse thief of theft and is a nation of mendacious horse thieves. Over the the past 50+ years they have proven their mendacity and duplicity. We will recover our property sooner or later. The tide is rising against Indian occupation of the valley. Look at the fayte of the U.S in S.Vietnam and the USSR in Afghanistan. Kashmir is India`s quagmire. Its continued occupation will destroy India. We, in Pakistan don`t give a damn about anything else when it comes to realtions with India. What we want is Kashmir. (Jammu and Ladhakh might be negotible in a final settlement). Whatever we choose to do with it, Kashmir is our business. INDIA GET OUT OF KASHMIR. This is now all that the process of dialogue should consist of. Lord knows India has heard us on this matter before. The question ladies and gentleman is only what punishment shall be meted out for this daily and continuing theft and rape of our lands and people. What will be the penalty we shall impose for this theft. We are not going to wait another 50 years, our patience is NOW at an end. We are quite prepared to pay any price necessary to insure that India returns (voluntarily or otherwise) Kashmir to Pakistan, its lawful sovereign. We don`t want to hear anything further on the matter. Discussion closed. The ends justify whatever means are used to attain our goals. The only language that needs to be spoken from now on is one of bullets, bombs, shells exploding, and the roar of artillery. Pagan-heathen savages must be dealt with firmly. We have been far too lenient with them thus far.

If there are concrete peaceful steps Pakistan should take immediate they are the following:

1) Hold an immediate plebescite under U.N supervision in accordance with U.N Resolutions, in Azad Kashmir, and withdraw the Pakistan Army from Kashmir entirely during the process. After Pakistan has done this, the onus will be on India to comply as well. International pressure will mount on India to follow suit. After such a long time, this would be a bold diplomatic masterstroke of utter genius on the part of Pakistan. The shoe would then be on the other foot. India`s utter moral bankruptcy would stand is sharp contrast to Pakistan`s adherence to the will of the international community.

2) Following the Plebescite, declare all Kashmiris Pakistani citizens, including those in Indian occupied Kashmir (like West Germany dealt with the East Germans prior to 1989 and Germans today worldwide, and like Israel treats Jews worldwide today), with right of automatic residence in Pakistan plus Pakistani passports.

Omar

Re:Everyone

I am not a military expert but wrote that the Kargil mission or war put Pakistan about $5 million more in debt and India had to bear $something millions on its part.

I just wonder how can this be justified when there are many who want to study and cannot get admission because there arn`t many shchools which can accomodate the increasing number of students both in India and Pakistan???

Can someone answer:

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs??

regards

FT

Re: Najib

At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.

If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.

On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.

In a major diplomatic and political setback to India, the Human Rights Watch on Thursday called on the international community to suspend all military ties with India because of the massive violations of human rights by its military in Kashmir.

``France, Germany, Russia, Britain, United States and India`s other trading partners should suspend all military aid and sales and all programmes of military cooperation with India,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

The demand was made in a report titled ``Behind the Conflict in Kashmir`` that includes a scathing indictment of the Indian security forces and details their horrendous rapes, killings and torture of Kashmiri civilians.

The international community, the Human Rights Watch demanded, should also suspend joint military exercises, until India provides greater accountability on cases of disappearances, torture, and summary killings by its forces in Kashmir and disarms all state-sponsored paramilitary groups operating in Kashmir.

``At the annual World Bank-sponsored donors meeting on India, participant countries should publicly state that continued economic support for India should not be seen as support for the Indian government`s human rights policies,`` the organisation demanded.

``In the statement, and in private and public meetings with Indian government officials, members of the donor group should raise concerns about deteriorating conditions in Doda and other border districts and press India to allow greater access to these areas and other parts of Kashmir to international organisations,`` the Human Rights Watch recommended.

``They should press India to invite the UN special rapporteurs and the working groups to visit Kashmir. They should also raise concerns about attacks on human rights defenders in Kashmir.

``The diplomatic staff of India`s allies and trading partners should make a point of visiting areas of the state outside the Kashmir valley, particularly Doda, Rajouri and Punch, and ensure that their reports reflect current human rights conditions in these areas,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

The report said the escalation in fighting has made it urgent that the international community put pressure on India to end widespread human rights violations by its security forces in Kashmir, and on Pakistan to end its support for militant groups.

The 44-page report focuses on the border areas in southern Kashmir.

Human Rights Watch demanded the Indian government to probe summary executions, disappearances, rape and other assaults by its security forces in Kashmir.

``The government of India should immediately initiate an impartial investigation into reports that the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles Battalion in Doda has been responsible for summary executions, ``disappearances,`` rape, and other assaults on villagers,`` it said.

``Other army units and security personnel named in other incidents of abuse should also be investigated and members found responsible for abuse prosecuted and punished,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

``The government of India should disarm and disband all state-sponsored militias not established and regulated by law and prosecute members of such groups who have been responsible for extra judicial killings, ``disappearances,`` assaults, and other abuses.

``The government of India should establish a civilian review board to oversee any rehabilitation program for surrendered militants.

``This review board should have access to records on surrendered weapons and should review vocational training programs to ensure that the former militants are not compelled to serve in state paramilitary forces not established and regulated by law, or induced to take part in security operations that violate international human rights and humanitarian law.

ôAlthough the government of India has promised since 1993 to establish a centralised register of detainees accessible to lawyers and family members, this has never happened.

Nation Newsgroup: 16 July, 99

there is some amount of honesty in your writing. but the problem is that most pakistanis believe kashmir to be some kind of a real estate issue. it is as if getting control over kashmir will solve all the india pakistan problems. the problem between india and pakistan is not the piece of real estate that goes by the name of kashmir. it has a lot to do with the pakistani mindset. after all just 28 years ago, it did have control over east pakistan-what is now known as bangladesh. why did it lose control over this area? the problem pure and simple is that in the first place pakistan has to come to terms with itself. i believe that once the pakistani army its establishment and the people come to terms with themselves, they will stop indulging in such juvenile gimmicks, like the one they tried in kargil. it is true that india did commit a blunder in the sense that it allowed the intruders to settle over such an extended area. and for that we have paid with the lives of our young and valiant soldiers. but it is time that the pakistani establishment realised the fighting the might of the indian army is not like a cricket match. supporting the khalistani militants did not yield any pay off. so supporting the kashmiri militants also is not going to yield dividends. like the punjabis , the kashmiris in india also did not ``rise to the pakistani`` expectations and support such subversive acts. the reason is quite simple. indians unlike the pakistanis are quite at ease with india. and this is true inspite of all the religious and caste divisions. let us face it. there is no substitute for pluralistic society, even though we too have no dearth of fundamentalists who would like to make india a hindu version of pakistan. thank god, they don`t succeed.

Can we keep the discussion civil?

Ilanjetchenni

Re:Omar#41-43

Since you wish to give lessons in history, do you know that Patel had offered Kashmir to Jinnah in exchange for Hyderabad around 1948 ? Jinnah had rejected the offer because he valued Hyderabad more than Kashmir and he felt that he had some chance at getting it. You know quite well that Hyderbad had an overwhelming hindu majority ruled by a muslim ruler. Moreover, Jinnah was also negotiating with the Rajput rulers of Rajasthan although their kingdoms were hindu majority. Jinnah was willing to accept any conditions which would attract them to Pakistan. The reality is that partition was a free for all. Both sides wanted to grab as much territory as possible and they acted in very similar fashion. The only difference is that India managed to get the maximum territory.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, here is a novel suggestion. Why doesn`t Pakistan ask the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) to fight assembly elections in Kashmir ? APHC can continue with its pro Pakistan ideology and demand UN supervisors to ensure no rigging. If APHC can win the elections and form a state government, it would be the clearest signal that Kashmiris want out. It would marginalize Farooq Abdullah and provide a genuine representative to talk to. In 1970, Mujib had fought elections under Pakistani constitution and won it overwhelmingly. As a result, he became the voice of the Bengalis ? Why doesn`t the APHC do the same ? We don`t have to wait till the UN plebiscite to find out what Kashmiris really want.

Finally a thought on your crude, disgusting remarks about Indians and our soldiers. The feelings are mutual on this side. Let me tell you that Pakistan came within inches of getting nuked out of this planet, which made Nawaz run to Washington with his tail between his legs. The mood in India is getting really nasty against Pakistan and people are reaching their limits. If Pakistan keeps this up, India will not be restrained in the future. In a unrestricted nuclear exchange, we may get hurt but you will be vaporized. If you behave like animals, we will do the same and even worse. People like you are a real representative of the Pakistani establishment and their subhuman mindset.

People in India are itching to have an all out war with you and finish it once and for all. However, we will do it with intelligence. First, the government is going to place a three tier security cordon around Kashmir to ensure that Mujahedin cannot enter the heart of Kashmir and all conflict is localized at the borders. I hope that they put in internal fencing within Indian territory to restrict access to most of Kashmir, while extensively landmining the outer areas. Secondly we should set Pakistan on fire. We should send in trained and motivated subversives to carry out mass scale terrorism in Pakistan. We should seek the help of Iranians, Uzbeks and other Central Asians who cannot tolerate Pakistanis and the Taliban to help out. Thirdly we should rope in the Indian muslims to go to Kashmir and lobby them to support India. Fourthly we should do everything possible to crush Pakistan`s residual economy. Wherever, Pakistan has any exports, India should go in and outprice Pakistani goods. If there are any successful businesses, Indian mercenaries should sabotage them. We should contaminate the Indus river waters to ensure that agriculture fails completely in Pakistan. Finally, we should deploy an arsenal of nuclear weapons and a clear plan for the total destruction of Pakistan and Afghanistan, if we need to. It should be a deadly series of strikes that takes out all the urban centers, the military installations and crush these two places once and for all.