A Road To Siachen

Connecting terrorism`s dots

Arnaud de Borchgrave

Dec. 27, 2001

Washington Times

In an attempt to avoid embarrassing Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, and to pre-empt any Indian campaign to extend the war against terrorism to cover terrorist training camps in Pakistan, the White House announced Dec. 20 it was blocking the assets of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET) which it described as ``a Kashmiri terrorist organization that has conducted a number of operations against Indian troops and civilian targets in Kashmir since 1993.``

That was once over very lightly. If truth be known, the facts behind LET are identical to Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda`s organization. The terrorists are interchangeable between both organizations. They were all trained in al Qaeda`s camps and some of bin Laden`s Afghan Arabs have already found refuge among LET`s ranks in Kashmir. The White House`s new formulation calls LET ``a stateless sponsor of terrorism.`` But LET is also Pakistan-based and Pakistan-sanctioned.

LET`s ranks consist of Pakistanis, Afghans, and Arabs led by Pakistani cadres. Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency oversees LET`s terrorist operations. Headquartered at Muridke outside Lahore, LET holds annual conclaves that are attended by serving and retired officers of ISI and the regular army, political leaders, and retired scientists of Pakistan`s nuclear establishment. LET`s terrorists are ``freedom fighters`` dedicated to ``the liberation of Indian-occupied Kashmir.`` Its political cover is called Marka-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), a fiercely anti-U.S. pseudo-religious, extremist organization.

LET`s last big meeting was held in Muridke April 13-15 and was attended by retired Gen. Hameed Gul, a former head of ISI and currently ``strategic adviser`` to Pakistan`s extremist religious parties; Retired Gen. Javed Nasir, another former ISI director general; Abdul Qadir Khan, the father of Pakistan`s nuclear bomb; Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, formerly with the Atomic Energy Commission and recently detained at the request of the U.S. for questioning about his meetings with Osama Bin Laden. The conference passed a resolution calling on its ``freedom fighters`` to capture Hindu temples, destroy the idols and hoist the flag of Islam on them.

ISI was tasked with ensuring that no journalists gained access to the meeting. But some did. The News reported on April 22 that LET ``operates six private military training camps in Pakistan and Kashmir where several thousand are given both military and religious education.`` The newspaper also reported that LET runs 2,200 recruiting offices across Pakistan and some two dozen ``launching camps along the Line of Control [LOC] in Kashmir,`` which makes it ``the biggest jihadi [holy warrior] network in Pakistan.``

No militant training center in Pakistan can operate without the consent of the army, now in power, and ISI, a state within a state whose chief reports only to Mr. Musharraf. Yet the government continues to be in a state of deep denial. Presidential spokesman Gen. Rashid Quereshi says, ``No group operating in Kashmir has any base in Pakistan.``

Mr. Musharraf is riding a terrorist tiger and is having trouble dismounting. Last May 18, Najam Sethi, the editor of ``Friday Times,`` an authoritative weekly journal, summed up the president`s dilemma: ``The Musharraf model seeks to covertly ally with the jihadi groups while overtly keeping the mainstream religious parties out of the power loop. This is to enhance and sustain its covert external agenda, while internally maintaining an overtly moderate anti-fundamentalist stance for the comfort of the international community whose economic support is critical to Pakistan`s financial viability.``

The terrorist attack against the Indian Parliament Dec. 13 was almost certainly the work of Jaish-e-Mohammed (Soldiers of the Prophet), another Pakistan-based terrorist organization. This writer found its slogans painted in towns and villages throughout the Pakistani tribal belt last week, to wit: ``Jaish-e-Mohammed and al Qaeda are Bubbling Blood Brothers`` and ``For Commando Training, Contact Jaish-e-Mohammed.`` The motive for the attack was most probably an attempt to disrupt the budding U.S.-Pakistani alliance and isolate Mr. Musharraf.

After ditching Taliban, it becomes increasingly harder for Mr. Musharraf to crack down on those who would Talibanize Pakistan. In fact, he released from detention the No. 1 religious extremist firebrand, Fazrul Rehman.

Mr. Musharraf is now caught between a rock and four hard places — Afghanistan where the anti-Pakistani, pro-Indian Northern Alliance holds the key government positions in the new coalition under Hamid Karzai; a hostile India on the edge of retaliatory action; a disloyal ISI; and a belligerent extremist clergy.

Despite the appointment of a Musharraf loyalist as the new head of ISI when U.S. bombing started last October, the powerful agency has not been responding to the president`s pro-American policies. One regional ISI general even went so far as to rattle tribal chiefs by telling them Pakistan would be next in America`s crosshairs after the defeat of Taliban. The secret organization continues to undermine him at every turn. The country`s principal political leaders are fearful of ISI. They draw the initials with their fingers in the air when the subject comes out lest they be heard by ubiquitous bugs. And they say nothing short of a top-to-bottom reform of ISI, followed by accountability to a yet-to-be-created national security council of civilian and military leaders, will bring the agency back to its proper place in the body politic.

The Taliban infrastructure in Pakistan emerged unscathed from Taliban`s defeat in Afghanistan. While ISI is officially cooperating with the U.S. in hunting down Taliban`s deposed leaders, senior Taliban officials are now resting comfortably in their second homes in Quetta and Peshawar, the two frontier towns where they had parked their families when the bombing started. One has even given an interview to a British newspaper. Another has given a ``religious lecture`` at the madrassa — the ``University for the Education of Truth`` — where he graduated in the town of Khattak. ISI is doubtless aware of these activities. But is Mr. Musharraf?

Belatedly, over the Christmas weekend, Mr. Musharraf decided to freeze the accounts of LET and Umma Tamee-e-Nau (UTN), the group the U.S. believes passed nuclear weapons data to Osama bin Laden. The LET chief then resigned. It is to be hoped that a thorough housecleaning of ISI is next on Mr. Musharraf`s must-do list as he returns from a weeklong state visit to China.

Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large of The Washington Times and of United Press International

http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20011227-79790204.htm

Jay: We never expected didley squat from negotiations with India in the past or the future, so at least Pakistan saved the cost of serving (imported) tea to a bunch of Indians!

Frankly, your cost analysis is such a load of the crock it makes me laugh. The cost in the continued Indian illkiterates who still don`t have access to potable drinking water and die of T.B and Hepatitis. Its in the cost of each shell that has to be transported to Siachian etc. Hope your immoral stance is worth your people living in abject poverty with no hope of a better tommorrow on the horizon.

Omar

Now that our feint into Kargil has distracted the Indian army, we should strike into the Punjab with everything. India will counterstrike thru Rajestan into Sindh, mainly thru dessert, perfect, walking into our trap. We drop a nuke or 2 right on their armoured strike corps. India can`t retaliate because our army is marching thru densely populated INDIAN Punjab. Meanwhile their strike corps is annhilated in the Paki dessert with minimal Paki civil casualties. Its a beautiful plan. Lets get started on the raod to Delhi! The ball is then in their court as to whether to escalate by attacking Paki cities.

Re: Jay # 80

Jay, for sorry that lecture, but I love to wax lyrical about military history! Now, only if I could find a girl who shares and understands this passion with me....I would be a happy camper!

I think that there might be a little misunderstanding. I thought we were discussing the military mind per se, but it would seem that you were thinking about a military dictator when you based your comments, about its intellience levels. If that is case, then I would have to agree with you that a military dictator is counter-productive for ``creative`` reasons. I was disgreeing with you on the basis that not all military leaders, past and present, are stupid and I was not, for the record, defending military dictators` levels of sanity.

If you would read my post to Wasiq Nawaz, on the article about citizenship rights, you would have a better understanding about my reasons of concern about the tenure of a dictatorship.

On the other hand, your point is valid that a civilian dictator is always better than a military one. That reason for that is, because a military dictator can not allow too much creativity, lest it comes to haunt him. Still, that does not mean that civilian dictator will be any better. Saddam Hussein is a good case in point. His nearly twenty years of reign over Iraq have done nothing to uplift that nation`s technological or academic standards.

I know that PNS Ghazi was sunk with all hands during the 1971 war, but whether it was tasked with sinking the INS Vikrant is open to conjecture. I think that the sinking of Vikrant, if possible, would have been more a result of opporunity than design. The Ghazi was on a ``roving patrol`` and that meant that once hostilities began, it was authorised to do as much damage as it could. It was on a similar mission as the PNS subs during the recent crisis, which prompted the Indians to increase their naval readiness levels in the western Arabian Sea; prevent interdiction.

The other thing, which would raise doubts in my mind that Ghazi was intending to sink Vikrant would be the operational parameters of Ghazi itself. Remember, Ghazi was an old diesel boat with out an AIP (Air Induction Propulsion) system. AIP is a system, which allow the submarine to ``feed`` air into its engines and for breathing purposes and hence, it increases the time the sub can remain submerged. The diesel type submarines have two sources of power; they use their diesel engines while on surface and they use their electric engines while submerged.

The Ghazi did not have an AIP or advanced intergrated sonors or targetting systems and that meant it could only ``sprint and drift.`` In other words, it would have to come to surface, scan for targets, and run ``sprint`` on its diesel engines while recharging its electric batteries to silently ``drift`` while underwater and that could be only for limited times.

Hence, aquiring and tracking the Vikrant would be difficult. A submarine runs faster on its diesel engines than it does on its electic power and the speed of the carrier, Vikrant, would be greater than the Ghazi`s speed. So, the Pakistani skipper would have to run on the surface most of the time to stay in order to sustain a ``target solution`` on the Vikrant and if he did that, there is a good chance he might be detected by the carrier`s escort ships or their ASW (anti-submarine warefare) helicopters or even by the Vikrant`s Sea Harriers. Consequently, if the skipper of Ghazi stayed submerged for too long, the carrier would, due to its faster speed, would get out of his reach.

Due to these operational considerations, I do not think that Ghazi could ``tail`` and sink Vikrant. This not a sign of disrespect for the crew of PNS Ghazi nor is this a question of their bravery, but a realistic appraisal of the boat`s limititions. Again, if the Vikrant had been sunk, it would be because it presented itself as a TOO (Target of Opportunity) and that Ghazi was in the right place at the right time.

Incidently, do you know that submarines are referred to as ``pig boats`` in most navies, because of the living conditions on board and I have to wonder just how the Pakistani sailors, who are Muslims, feel about serving on them and being associated with the term ``pig``. Wonder what the mullahs will have to say about this when learn this little piece of triva? May be they will issue a fatwa and dry dock the entire PN sub fleet, because it is against Islam and hence ipso facto, anti-Pakistani! Bet the Indians would love that, if it ever happens!

Sorry for the digression, hope this helps....sorry it had to turn into another lecture!

Ferozk,

I salute (not the military one ) your indepth knowledge of the military history. I always suspected that, a military dictator will be disaster, dur to reason which i posited and you disagreed, but civilian dictator with charisma, hitler to indira gandhi will be good for `creativity` . engineering and technology in general seem to flourish under civilian dictator.

Because you seem to know a lot about military, I read a long time ago that the Pak submarine Ghazi was sent on a mission to sink Vikrant nearly a month before the break out of 1971 war. Can you comment on this. i would appreciate it.

Re: Jay # 78

My friend, this discussion on the merits of military is an interesting one and can go on for ever!

The denigeration of the military mind, as being utterly useless, came about in the midst of the First World War, because of its unimaginative tactics, which resulted in periodic tragedies with names like Marne, Ypres, Somme, Paschendale and Verdun. This is where the saying, ``the grammar school boys always know the best`` comes from, because the leadership of the British and French armies were the best and brightest products of its schools and they were always taught the old maxim: ``to whom much is given, much is expected``. It was because of this, that their sin, the watering the fields of Flanders with the blood of a generation, in the eyes of their fellow country was unpardonable.

Since that war, a military has been seen as the realm of dullards and that impression has never left it, but it was not always this way. Historically, the great captains of war were also considered as able and intelligent political administrators. Look at Ranjit Singh; not only was he an excellent military strategist, but he was also an astute politican who played the ``game`` with the British and his rivals while ruling over Lahore and a great part of Punjab.

Napoleon, another military mind, came up with the Napoleonic Code, a legal system of governance, which still holds sway in France. Even in this century, MacArthur`s political reforms in Japan, which transformed Japan into its present day incarnation was more than just a case of simple memory and analysis. It was his understanding of the oriental mind, which allowed him to fuse the Japanese traditions with the concepts of western democracy. He did it so well that it still forms the bedrock of the Japanese political system. If that is not an example of synthesis by a military mind, then I do not know what can be credited as such.

It was only in the aftermath of the First World War and the specialization of the military, that military became solely devoted to fighting and winning wars. Still, military leaders have proven able politicans when confronted with the task. As to military people coming up with inventions, they have, but not necessarily for civilain purposes originally.

Who do you think designed and created the first submarine? It was not the civilians, but soldiers from the Confederacy trying to perfect a weapon that could break the Union`s blockade of Charleston Harbor. Now days submarines are used in all sorts of things from deep sea exploration to rescue operations.

It was a group of Pakistani Air Force engineers, military people, who came up an invention that increased the flight ceiling of a helicopter by about 2500 meters. They even got a patent for their invention, which they shared with the French firm making the helicopters and that invention is now a standard feature on all helicopters. It has enabled helicopters to conduct more effective search and rescue missions in high alpine areas.

If you want to talk about synthesis, let us talk about the combat pilots and a condition, which they refer to as Situational Awareness. SA, is the ability to ``paint`` a 3D mental picture of the environment outside of your aircraft through a process of synthesis, which intergrates all the in-coming data from the flight computers and instuments about the aircraft`s state of performance and which allows the pilot to carry out an effective series of Air Combat Maneuverings or as it is known in layman`s term, ``dog-fighting.``

ACM is the ultimate art of synthesis, because you can not fly and engage in ACM without having SA and Jay, ACM is not a case of operating between simple memory and analysis! The ability to survive ACM suggests an ability to fuse all the available data in a synthesis, which tells you just what is going around you during an ACM encounter. In an ACM mode, not only must a pilot be aware of the flight enevolve of his aircraft, but he must also understand the flight characteristics of the enemy aircraft and take that bit of knowledge and information and seek a synthesis with his own sense of SA and anticapte the next move of the enemy.

Does this sound like a case of simple memory and analysis to you? Jay, take my word for it. Air combat is not a case of a simple memory and analysis!

Yes, marching has no utility to a military engagement, but it is done to taught a person to operate within a team and as a part of the team and think as a team and not act against it`s interests. The nature of the modern battlefield requires a soldier to have the ability to take divergent pieces of information and fuse them together to form a picture, or a tactical situational parameters, which can then be implemented with the right decision. Modern armies do not want robots, but clear cool headed thinking soldiers who can adapt to any sitution and still prevail.

Do you really think that the Indian soldiers, who were scapmering up the heights in Kargil, were brain dead and it was only their creative officers which were responsible for the Indian Army`s victories?

On the contary my friend, it takes an extremely sane person to overcome his fear of death and nerve himself to do something, which his all instincts tell him is a wrong thing to do. Your brain dead soldier would have run instead and never would have attacked the heights when ordered to do so.

Jay, have you ever been under fire? Do you have any idea what it is like to be on the opposite end of an in-coming bullet? It takes a hell of ``synthesis`` of your environment, your levels of courage, your sense of creeping fear, and your urge to hide, but still operate in such an environment. What is combat in its most basic sense? It is nothing more than a synthesis of fear, the terror of the unknown and your own awareness of what is happening around you, in a radius of about five to ten yards!

My dear friend, if you only knew the full scope of courage and sacrifice of those who are willing to die for you and your country, you would not be so dismissive or arrogant of their last full measure of devotion to call them as ``brain dead.``

Ferzok,

I loved your valient defence of the military men, efforts to prove that they are not brain dead.

At a broad level of categorisation, functions of the brain can be grouped into (1) simple memory and recollection (2) Analysis and (3) synthesis.

I prefer to say that sythesis is the highest form of mental activity that is commonly termed as creative. Again, creative can be losely defined as inventions and discoveries. I havnt heard of many military men credited with these. Military related reseaech lead to inventions, but theses are carried out by `civilians`.

One also can look at the processes in the military. Command and obey, the code of any military is obviously not conducive to creativity.

Another process one can look at is the `marching`, it has no relevance to any situations of encounter, but is used as a method to reinforce the command and obey system, to short circuit the brain, the soldier hears the command and obeys it without thinking.

Ofcourse one can argue that my comments are valid only for the `sipoys`, low lvel operatives, but the corollary is which creative person would want to lead an army of the brain dead.

In conclusion the military person operate at best between simple memory and analysis and never at the realm of synthesis. I repeat my assertion that military is for the brain dead.

Re: iconoclast # 76

I thought that might be the reason, but I was still taken aback, because I had come to view you as a cool headed type and one who was not given to these fits of bravados.

As to my fellow country men, they can believe what they like and it still will not change reality one iota. Like I told a friend, there is no sense in encouraging people who do not want to be convinced on the basis of facts and that applies to both Indians and Pakistanis. I think most Pakistanis are in self-denial on what just happened and when they climb out of their stupors, they will have to face some very harsh questions and I promise you, they will not like the answers.

Yes, it would seem that India has finally forged a national identity for itself, but I still would caution you from too much rejoicing in this matter. There is a very thin line between patriotism and recklessness and if the Indian`s cause celebre over Kargil goes over board, it will hurt your long term interests. I just hope that your hawks and other extreme groups do not learn the wrong lessons from this fiasco.

By that, I mean those elements in Pakistan who really want peace with India. If your hawks indulge in too much martial glory, it will only strenghten the hands of the anti-peace lobby in Pakistan and mererly silence the moderates, who might take this opportunity to discredit the hawks in Pakistan, who have landed us in this quandry.

In other words, instead of losing hope over this mess, people with clear visions and foresights can exploit this situation for a better South Asia. I would not discount peace and there will be peace and prosperity for Indians and Pakistanis yet, because all we have to is free our minds from the chains of hate, which bind us and think of Yitzak Rabin called, ``the peace of the brave``.

Best wishes!!!!!

Re: Icon # 73

Just out of interest, what did India win in Kargil? Has this issue been settled for once and for all and will never flare up again? Did the crisis in Kargil restore the LoC in some way that such events in the future will not happen again? Has Kargil stopped the huge loss of money and lives on the Siachen, which India is presently suffering? Has Kargil lessened India`s military committment to region, because India ``won`` and there is no more disagreements on the LoC with Pakistan? What did India win? Did India win regional security for its side of the LoC? Did India win by putting an end to issue of Kashmir finally? Just what did India win?

Yes, Pakistan ended up with a bloody nose, but India did not emerge from this mess smelling like roses either!

Re: Jay # 72

Jay, I was amused to hear your remarks about the military being brain dead. Yeah, sure.....

Moshe Dyan was brain dead when he led the Isrealis against the Arab forces and so was Yitzak Rabin, who as Israel Army`s Chief of Staff, planned the Israeli raid to rescue the hostages from Entebbe. May be the Indian General Makenshaw was brain dead too when he planned and executed the Indian Army`s brilliant use of helicopters to over come river obstacles in East Pakistan, which caused so much grief to General Niazi and the Pakistani Army!

Yeah, I guess you`re right. Erwin Rommel was brain dead too when he was tactical nightmare for the British Eight Army in North Africa and so too was the American Caesar, Douglas MacArthur, when he planned his island hopping campaign in the Pacific against the Japanese. I guess it takes no real skills or brains to plan and execute massive landings, such as Normandy or Inch`on. I guess General George Patton was brain dead too when he organized the relive of the 101st Airborne surrounded by German SS troops in Bastgone, by disenegaing in the middle of a battle, and advancing nearly 150 kms in 24 hours.

Yeah, Jay, you`re absolutely right and I have to wonder why huge corporations want their executives to have the skills necessary in a military environment: leadership, problem solving, ability to organize resources and effectivily use them. If the military mind is so brain dead as you claim, could you please tell why the Chinese military strategist Sun Tzu`s Art of the War is required reading for your average corporate raider?

Thanks Jay! I needed that laugh!

Re: Ferozk

Ferozk

`` Just out of interest, what did India win in Kargil? ``

-- I agree, the truth is on a grander perspective India did not win either. More money would be spent on the ARMED forces, and on defence of the country henceforth. There would be an increase in terrorism and counter-terrorism in Kashmir.

I was only pointing out the tendency of some of your fellow countrymen to look for victories where none existed. I was only criticising the view point of some pakistanis who would only believe what they like to believe. .

The one thing India did win though was that there was a national camaraderie from North to South, and East to West and people started rediscovering their inherent Indianness. India did prove to itself that during a crises, we react as Indians and not as communities, castes , and creeds. But then the costs were prohibitive.

A needless adventure which just killed a lot of people on both sides.

-- Iconoclast.

Re; Amit or the other Indian who wished me ill obliquely

Someone made a comment that Indian RAW should target Paki military families living abroad, or something like it in what was intended to be an obvious reference to me. Now i want this idolater to see what has happened in response to his plea. The Lord of the Worlds, not ever to be confused with some pathar ki murti, has ironically answered your plea. Read on for yourself, the result of your perverse wish. Those who wish for our destruction, shall only live long enough to see their loved ones and commmunity hurt.

Two killed, 16 wounded in Kashmir Grenade Attack

SRINAGAR, July 21: Suspected ``Muslim militants`` threw a hand grenade into a crowded market in Kashmir today, killing two civilians and wounding another 16, police said. The attack took place in a crowded vegetable market in Baramulla, 55 kilometers (34 miles) north of the Indian Kashmiri summer capital of Srinagar, a police official said. Two soldiers were among the wounded. The market is a favourite spot for the FAMILIES OF SECURITY PERSONNEL (my capitalization).

The attack created panic in the streets, prompting shopkeepers in the town of Baramulla to lower their shutters. Indian troops have cordoned off the area and launched a massive search operation.

More than 24,000 people have been killed since 1989 in separatist violence in Kashmir, India`s only Moslem-majority state. Authorities here fear that the recent two-month conflict with Pakistan-backed forces in Kashmir could lead to a major upswing in separatist activity in the disputed Himalayan territory. (AFP)

If anyone wants to claim that Pak won in the Kargil episode, be my guest. It is not new for Pakistani`s to make tall claims even when they lose miserably. You did win the worldcup too did u not ? having shown the world that u could have won if u wanted to .......ha..ha..ha.. (however the whole wide world thinks differently)

YES, BE MY GUEST...PAKISTAN DID WIN....(why are a few pakistanis saying differently...oh.oh they must be RAW agents). And why is no Indian saying that they lost ((don`t be dumb....they are Indians and they always lie))

PAKISTAN = PROPAGANDA....

Iconoclast

Omar

I liked your rseponse to my post, fairly objectve with mild dose of your usual venom. To talk of labour shortage in india, especially in the army where all trainings are done in house, shows a lack of understanding of the indian situation.

To be selected to the military still demands above average physical fitness. Among the uni graduates, military was never attractive and always attracted those withoyut much of any scholastic aptitude and correctly so, military is for the brain dead.

The comment in the original article that there is a shortage of recruits into the officer cadre is merely a plagiarism of the generalised remarks about military recruitment in the western countries and has no relevance to india.

So, you people think that `Pakistan lost` the Kargil Crisis, and `India Won`? Think again. Well, from a strategic point of view Pakistan has already won. The cost of India mainting 10,000 troops year round in Kargil, Drass, Batalik is reported by Indian newspapers to be 100 million rupees (thats about $2 million daily added to Indian army cost of operations alone). Siachin costs India and Pakistan $1 million and $700,000 daily respectively. It also costs the Indian army hundreds more dead due to the climactic conditions alone, which are not better in Kargil-Drass-Batalik (they occupy the heights at Siachin). So, India has now been forced to spend $2m/day ($730 million annually) extra in its desperate bid to continue its illegal occupation of Kashmir and its resulting confrontation with Pakistan. This is a victory for India, of pyhrric proportions. Pakistan`s total cost for this operation $5-10 million and perhaps 500+ dead. India`s cost of eviction was over $200 million. As I said earlier, Pakistan will bleed India white to the bone. Over a decade that is an additional $7 billion! To put things into perspective, the 300 T-90 Tanks India is acquiring from Russia cost $750 million USD. Resources are not unlimited. Poverty striken India cannot afford this, as sane Indians will privately admit. This is a disaster for India. After having lost a few hundred troops, defending worthless territory has become a national point of honor for them. This is excellent. Pakistan has succeeded in its strategic aims w/o increasing its own costs appreciably.

Omar

Re: Omar

Ja? Seine gross-mutter and vater sind Deutsch? Sprachen sie Deutsch oder English im deine Haus mit deine gross-mutti oder vati?

Re: Jay #61

Frankly Jay, the facts simply do not support your conclusions, which you posted this article in support of, and only demonstrate that your basic assumptions on which your conclusions rest, are highly questionable. The article demonstrates NOT that the Indian masses are super-patriotic, but rather the massive unemployment rate in India and the large pool of desperate job seekers, so desperate that they turn blood thirsty in their effort to seek succor for their distended bellies, which led this mob to such desperate acts as killing police officers (state officials, which amount to an act of treason, one wonder if they would hesitate to kill their own officers in war, or mutiny under fire?), just for the chance to enlist in the army (guaranteed life time employment afterall). Feroz talked about the Indian middle class deserting the IAF/Indian armed forces, particularly the officer corps, not these unqualified ill disciplined masses. In fact, if this is the caliber of the Indian army recruits, frankly, its no wonder the Indian army is guilty of committing atrocities in Kashmir. You have just given us proof of it! You`ve also showwn us why the insurgency continues against all odds in the valley. Such people, are fresh meat for the kill. Also, i don`t think the Pakistan army will be too worried about facing this quality of humans in a war. Faceless Mobs, are easily dispatch once the fighting becomes personal, and individuals remember to save their own skins under fire and become aware of just how vulnerable they are.

regards,

Omar

Re: Amit

Point well taken, this issue is highly emotional and hence, all the reason to approach it with a cool head. You seem to be correct in identifying Kashmir as the sine qua non and as a rasion d`etre of Pakistan. Pakistan needs to de-link Kashmir as its main focus, because it is effectivily curtailing our options to deal with the crisis and only seems to limit our flexibility in dealing with the problem.

Re: Rishi

Rishi, I can follow your advice and refrain from involving myself, but I would only be defeating my own purposes. The reason why I objected to Omar`s posts is, because I fail to understand the source of his hatred and why he persists to demonize and belittle Indians.

Personally speaking, there have been times when I find myself in disagreement with the Indians and what their stance on an issue might have been. However, despite my disagreements with them, I have never opted, or felt the need, to demonize them or belittle them as a people. This is the crux of my question. I would really like to know why Omar can not argue an issue without turning it into a personal grudge match and a verbally abusive interact session?

Re: anarayan

My reference, and article, was on the Pakistani military mind and how it sought to change the equation in Kashmir. In hindsight it was a brilliant strategy if you consider the amount of logistical planning, the training involved, the deception of intent, the covert infilteration into Indian Kashmir and the creation of a support system, which kept the Indian army occupied for a better part of nearly two months trying to re-take the heights.

The fact that it did not work, does not lessen its scope of audacity, because it does offer a textbook model, for professional military planners, to study on how to organize and sustain a military campaign in the mountains. The German Army`s Schlieffen Plan, for the invasion of France during the First World War, was absolutely brilliant despite its failures and it is still a required course of study at all of the worlds` military academies, including at Dehra Dun, on how to plan an offensive.

The Germans lost the Battle of Kursk to the Soviet Red Army, in 1943, but that did not prevent the Israeli armorored forces from adopting it a as role model for their armored forces` training. In fact, the role models for Israeli tankers ares not the Americans or their armor doctrines, but the German Panzerfuhrers of World War Two. Moshe Dyan`s hero was Guderian! Israelis train their armor officers to react like the Germans used to in a battle. Why would they do this if the Germans lost the war?

Do you know that most air force academies teach their students on how to conduct air strikes, on naval ships, by using the model of Iraqi Air Force`s attack on the American naval vessel USS Stark? Why, because it was a textbook operation, which covered all the basics even though the Iraqi Air Force is now considered as a joke!

Consequently, just because I applaud Pakistan`s logistical accumen in Kargil does not mean that I fail to realize the problems of Pakistani military or those of South Asia`s missed opportunites! :)

Re: OMAR1974

What is up with you and this German accent? Omar, since we are speaking German, I have to ask you: was ist los mit du?

A nuclear war should always be considered as ein verboten logik (a forbidden logic or an idea)and it should never be considered as a viable option to any problem. Also, just because you have access to nuclear weapons does not mean that they should be used, because the real value of nuclear weapons lies in their deterrenence and not in their use.

In other words, just because a person owns a firearm, a hand gun, it does not mean that he should play Russian roulette with it!

What i`m trying to tell ya Feroz: (transliteration)tu arey ageis!

Feroz: Akhtuliebe mein en got! Zum Donne-vetta nokhe mal! (just my attempt at transliteration)

(my grandma is German, my dad speaks German, my g.grandmuther was German, any more questions? :)

Omar

Re: Amit Reply #: 63

`` ... I am sorry for the outburst ...``

(No semblance of an apology from the other side we note). Amit, You did serve a purpose though. My general appraisal is that most pakistanis have a pseudo-macho outlook. I hesitate to say this, but it could be an offshoot of the `punjabi` culture - arrogance and bombast, which is magnified 10-fold in pakistan by propaganda and delusions of grandeur.

Pakistan is a pseudo democracy. The army operates independent of any civilian control. The generals don`t give a damn what their actions lead to. We need to make them pay for their little games. To your earlier suggestions, I would add this. Let the Indian intelligence create an assasination wing something on the lines of Israel`s Mossad. This should target the wealth and families of these military personel settled abroad (one of who I suspect contributes his puerile outpourings to this chat).

It would be nice to see Musharraf shed some real tears, instead of the `magarmach` variety for the 700 NLI soldiers - who died for his whim.

Re: Ferozk

Feroz, don`t sully urself by replying to sh * *.

-- Rishi

Re:Ferozek #49

Feroze, I am sorry for the outburst in my previous posting. After reading Omar`s postings, I had simply lost my cool and responded in kind. Since I consider myself to be a moderate, I was surprised at how easy it is to get emotionally carried away on Indo-Pak issues.

On the topic of Kashmir, the only practical solution is some sort of a compromise that requires all the three parties - Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris to move away from their stated positions. It is impossible to implement any one-sided solution that will be humiliating for any of the three parties. I feel that India had started this process with the Lahore declaration. Since the root of the problem lies in hindu-muslim tensions and partition, it makes sense to ask for trade, people to people relations etc. to improve the atmosphere, so as to reach a solution in Kashmir.

After the Kargil affair, people in India are beginning to realize that it is next to impossible to deal with Pakistan. One day you are invited to Lahore and everyone is doing the Bhangra, next day there is war, the third day you again want peace; how can anybody deal with this ? In spite of all the talk about Kashmir, Pakistan has never really launched a full scale invasion of Kashmir. This means that they would want negotiations. However, at the same time Pakistan seems to be adamant about not allowing people to people relations or trade relations. This means that the atmosphere remains vicious and unfriendly and hence we do not see any chance of a solution. It defies logic as to how this policy helps helps the Kashmir cause. The only explanation is that Kashmir is a vested interest for the Pakistani establishment and they are not really interested in solving the problem.

What is really disturbing is that the Pakistani establishment has embraced a doctrine wherein Kashmir is the sole agenda for Pakistan without allowing any solution to actually occur. It is nothing but a ploy to initiate and maintain a Jihad atmosphere against India. The fact that Pakistan seems to have little interest in socio-economic improvement shows that it only wants a negative agenda of spreading Taliban style Jihad in its neighborhood in Afghanistan and South Asia. It is hard to understand the ultimate objective because it cannot be explained by religion. After all, Islam was created as a positive force that encouraged education, knowledge, civilization and socio-economic equality. It is no wonder that Indian muslims are completely supporting India as they know that Pakistan`s policies have nothing to do with Islam. The civil and military leaders in Islamabad are embracing a mad policy and India is unable to develop the right response.

Re: Ferozk Reply #: 55

``The future of Pakistan and India can be better served by investing in education than in missiles,but then again, this is what makes the tragedy of the sub-continent so bitter-sweet, because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided.``

Strange turnaround - from one who was highlighting pakistan`s ``briliant strategy`` in kargil only a few mails ago ?!

Perhaps he just forgot to complete the sentence - ``... because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided...``

I would hazard a few guesses:

``...if these Indians just give us the rest of kashmir.``

``...if the Indian Army allows us to creep in all the way to Ladakh.``

``...if uncle Sam and brother Han show some support.``

There is a comment in the article yhat india is finding difficulty in recruiting army personnel and is running low on recruitment aspirants. The following report could be of interest to khan when he revises the article to `the road away from kargil`

Army job seekers go berserk again

By Our Staff Correspondent

PATNA, JULY 17. At least three persons were killed and over 60, including a score of police personnel, injured today when the aspirants for Army posts turned violent at Darbhanga, Chapra and Aurangabad district headquarters. Police opened fire at the mob which snatched police weapons and fired at them and indulged in arson.

According to the Home Secretary, Mr. U. N. Panjiar and the DGP, Mr. K. A. Jacob, the turnout at the three district headquarters was beyond expectations and when things went out of control, the police opened fire at Darbhanga and Chapra. While one person died in Darbhanga, two were killed in the Chapra incident. The police however, maintained that only one person had died of bullet injuries, in Chapra.

There were no casualties in Aurangabad and the number of injured in the clash between the police and the aspirants was put at six.

The officials maintained that the mob in Darbhanga snatched a rifle from a constable and shot at and injured him. While in Chapra an ASI was relieved of his revolver and was shot at. His condition has said to be critical.

Following the incident, the Army today cancelled the recruitment drive schedule for July 21 in Darbhanga.

Unofficial sources however put the death toll in the two police firing at six.

NOW REPEAT AFTER ME. `Nuclear war is preferable to negotiated settlement` (German accent again). Feroz, you lead the chorus, i suspect you have a rather nice singing voice. Well, perhaps when you`ve had a few more drinks and are quite fully intoxicated you will give us ze pleasure? Ja?

Ze herd mentality. Nietzche. Peacenicks! Get it? Or are u all still scratching your heads? Well keep doing it, its a good way to check to see whether a) You have any hair left, and b) if the radioactivity has started effecting you yet.

Omar

`Did we at least git more o` `em? ` (with Southern drawl)

Omar`s comment upon hearing New Delhi, Bombay, Madras, Calcutta, Amritsar, Karachi, Islamabad, Lahore, Peshawar and Quetta all got nuked about an hour ago.

Comment #2 folowing the news

Omar to young 18 year old son.

`Son, get a move on to the nearest sportin` goods store and the dept of enengy, we`re gonna go pick up a couple of those anti-radioactive suits, a couple of machettes, sporting rifles with sniper sights and some Evian along the way. Gonna go hunting, git us some pagan scalps. Ought` a be few among the living left who wanna join the dead. Giddy up Silver! Yee-haw!`

DRIVER WHERE U TAKIN` US ... ALL OF THE CHILDREN R INSANE! WAITING for the SUMMER RAIN ...

Yeah!

YEAH BABY! YEAHHHHH!!!

(All posts to be read in chronological order)

GIVE THE MASSES WHAT THEY WANT on both sides of the border. USE THE BOMB!

quote me freely,

Omar Mirza

LESS FRAYDOM, MORE TAXES. (with a harsh gutteral German accent). Its what the masses want. All wisdom comes from the masses. (Red Chinese communist philosophy). We must look to the masses for wisdom. All intellectuels to the fields, labor, will put you in touch with true wisdom. It will also furnish turnips for dinner (German accent, with Mao Cap on). To the fields! Some calluses on your hands comrade! (To show your decidcation to the masses). Nowadays we call it NEW LABOUR. To promote `Correct thinking`, one must .... consult F.K before posting any `obscence` view. He is now the official obscence view-clearer at Chowk (again, German, but slightly softer in ze throat).

F.K should heed his own words from an earlier post, `it is impossible to ever truly understand Omar.` But understanding me, is not relevant to the transfer of Kashmir to Paki sovereignity and whatever is deemed necessary to effect zis transfer, Indians screaming, kicking, wrenching their hair/turbans and gnashing their teeth, notwithstanding. Ja, Feroz, zis new weapon MUST be used! The good of humanity is foremost amongst our thoughts! May the force be with you!

regards,

Omar

f.K; Now while i`m at it (making suggestions for a better world), i also thought i`d add eradicating poverty and world hunger to my list. oh, yes, the universal brotherhood of man, thats my priority in life ya know, eliminating want and suffering. oh, YEAH! I`m planning on dedicating my life to doctors sans frontiers real soon. Oh, YEAH! Its what i really believe in. Nuke thy neighbour, to adapt a quote from Austin Powers (from `the Spy who shagged me`) YEAH BABY, YEAH!

India, GIVE IT UP Baby. Cause we r too `frightining to behold.` Lungi cladders across the border better watch out!

Omar a/k/a A.P 007

(devotee of the Karma Sutra and part time Kali-ma and monkey g-d idol worshipping fiend, blood suckin` hell raising, pagan skull cracking devil worshipper) For References refer to my old friend, F.K.:)

Re: fataquie # 51

First of all, there is no common sense justification for war or for its expenditure in both money and lives. The real costs of war are not measured in dead soldiers, but in ruined and shattered lives of families who have lost a loved one. Consequently, it does not really matter if Pakistan has a less of a war debt than India, because future generations, in both nations, will be paying for this faux pas for a long time to come in terms of hate, anger, and mutual recriminations.

You`re absolutely right. The future of Pakistan and India can be better served by investing in education than in missiles, but then again, this is what makes the tragedy of the sub-continent so bitter-sweet, because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided.

Re:OMAR1974 # 53

Omar, my friend, I am sorry to say the following, but your recent posts have left me with no choice, but to wonder about your levels of rationality. In the past, I had tried to be diplomatic, but since diplomatic tact does not seem to work, please allow me to be extermely blunt in my comments.

I can appreciate the emotional vortex, which the question of Kashmir engenders in people, but from reading your recent posts, it seems that you have completely lost your mind. I am specifically refering to your comment, which suggests that ``a nuclear war may be required`` to settle the issue of Kashmir. Do you have any inkling of what you seem to be advocating?

I think that it is utterly obscene to suggest such a scenrio and then to compound your arrogance by stating a willingness to accept the casualities, which such a course of action might accrue. What makes you think that you have a moral right to condone the murder of millions of people as being something acceptable? As if to show your own sense of rabid hatred on this issue, you are willing to legitimize the countless deaths of innocent human beings who have done you no harm. Who made you God, over their solitary existence, that you can so carelessly end their lives on the basis of your own indulgent personal whims? How dare you suggest this vulgarity, knowing fully well that you will suffer no ill consequences of such a disater while residing in the relative comfort of these United States.

I would like to know where you seem to get your sense of god-like authority, which allows you to judge persons as traitors and ask that their lives be nullfied to soothe your own sense of patriotism? I would like to know what devine inspiration made you God`s chosen avenger, which seems to bless you with an ability to act as a judge and jury over another human being and encourage his murder just to balm your own sense of a personal vanity?

Omar, I am extermely sorry to say this, but your hate filled and bitter posts only inspire a sense of deep disgust in me and when you suggest that human lives could be used as pawns to settle the issue of Kashmir and that murder is justified in the name of a cause, I have an urge to vomit, because I am sickened by such a blantant display of blind hatred. Your last few posts have been nothing more than a series of pure hate mongerings, which seem to cheapen the value of a human life by denying it its ordained sense of sanctity and by demonizing those who seem to disagree with you or do not seem share similar sentiments with your own sense of believes.

Omar, what makes most of your comments seem so absurd is that you are a highly intelligent person who has benefited from an excellent education from some of the world`s finest universities and yet, you have exhibted a sense of ignorance in your comments, which is simply frightening to behold and comprehend.

``Remember what the wise Jedi master Yoda once said: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side! :)``

I can see George Lucas` script writer sueing Yoda on this :-)

Here`s one more mundane:

Greed, propaganda & lies lead to Illusion, Illusion leads to megalomania, megalomania leads to adventurism and adventurism leads to downfall. Comprende ?

fataquie : Reply #: 50

`` ... the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.``

That is infinitely preferable to sending hapless soldiers to certain death on hare-brained strategies. The Indian Commander said that pakistan`s govt. has two statements on any issue -one for outsiders and one for domestic consumption. The bodies of brave pakistani soldiers who followed orders and lost their lives are in India at the moment. Pakistan is refusing to receive them openly since doing so would cause their `facts` turning to `fictions` - and so we hear of ``India trying to politicise the issue`` in the pakistani media. Can there be a greater shame for a nation ? - disowning its own sons who laid down their precious lives ?

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs?

Good question. I`m not sure how seriously you are asking this though (going by your mails). Also, are you asking this of others or to your own self. The former has no meaning at all.

If the British could leave Hong Kong, the French could be driven out of Algeria and Vietnam, the Israelis forced to negotiate with the Palestinians because of the intifada, the Serbs driven from Kosovo (their spiritual heartland), the U.S driven out of Vietnam, the Russians driven out of Aghanistan (the costs of which contributed to the collape of the USSR), and the IRA/Sein Fein and the British, Irish and N.Ireland gov (and basically all Catholic and Protestant groups) could agree to a cease fire and a political peace process, and Pakistan could be driven out East Pakistan, then what is India in the face of the resistence of the people of Kashmir and Pakistan? Its very simple, when the costs escalate, India will be forced to negotiate. Clearly, we have not yet reached the point where costs become intolerable and unsustainable for India. A nuclear war may be required. But whatever it takes, no matter how many people have to die (we really DON`T give a damn), we will prevail in the end, because right is on our side, as are principles. Have no doubts. The basic fact is that the Kashmiris don`t want to be part of India, and do what India may, it cannot change their national/ethnic/ religious sense of identity which is entirely alienated from Indian citizenship. This is a simple fact. Sooner or later India must come to terms with it. Controlling a hostile local population that actively supports action against the state is not a viable strategy in the long term for India. This is a basic fact. It is upto Pakistan and Pakistanis to insure the cost of India`s theft increases daily.

I propose the elimination of all traitors, starting with the puppet Chief minister of IOK, F.Abdullah. His swift death at the hands of determined muslims even at the cost of their own lives (martyrs) will energize our struggle like nothing else. It will also be a warning to other collaborators (the few Kashmiri muslims/x-militants India has recruited)that their fate will be same as meted out to Palestinian collaborators. There is no place to hide any longer. The world IS a global village. We`re gonna get ya. You won`t get a moments peace. No one can protect ya. Hey, the Tamils got Rajiv Gandhi. The Sikhs got Indira Gandhi. The muslims R GONNA GET F. Abdullah. Better believe it. Its a matter of time. His days are numbered. Watch the news.

And as for those Indians that keep bringing up India`s remaining muslim `problem` of co-existence to try to confuse the Kashmiri issue, frankly, all we are interested in is Kashmir, not Hyderabad Daccan etc, those people opted to stay in India, they are cut out to make compromises for the sake of coexistence, they are Indian citizens by choice. I don`t see what that issue, a purely internal Indian affair, has anything to do with the illegal occupation of Kashmir by India, where elections are rigged and produce 5% turnouts and there is no political legitimacy whatsoever of the brazen Indian occupation. India`s domestic problems are its omestic problems. We don`t give a hoot about them. Kashmir is Internationally recognized disputed territory. There is a clear difference between muslims in Bombay, and muslims in the vale of Kashmir. Better understand it.

Omar

Omar and Amit, I can understand your sense of passions in this matter. Yes, this is an emotional issue, but I would kindly ask you two gentlemen to refrain from excessive exhibitions of rancor and bitterness in your posts.

We can all go around calling each other names to our heart`s content, but at the end of the day we would have only managed to waste our time without even addressing the problem. Calling India or Pakistan names and praying for its citizens` death will not solve the issue, it will only create a sense of resentment, which will foster and merely nourish one group`s hatred for the other group.

Remember what the wise Jedi master Yoda once said: Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to the dark side! :)

The influential Washington Post in an editorial captioned `Cooling Kashmir` on Thursday said that `India`s denial of the democratic benefit in Kashmir is what the dispute remains basically about. An initiative along this line would earn India rich tribute.`

To those who are bent on obfuscating the real issue by focusing on fundamentalism in Pakistan, its internal problems, the `Paki-mindset` etc, I think you should, as diplomatic circles would phrase it, `stop interfering in Pakistan`s internal domestic affairs`. Quite frankly, whatever Pakistan`s internal problems, Pakistanis (Secular and Fundamentalists alike) are by and large united on the Kashmir issue. The issue is quite simple. India as a nation is as guilty as a common horse thief of theft and is a nation of mendacious horse thieves. Over the the past 50+ years they have proven their mendacity and duplicity. We will recover our property sooner or later. The tide is rising against Indian occupation of the valley. Look at the fayte of the U.S in S.Vietnam and the USSR in Afghanistan. Kashmir is India`s quagmire. Its continued occupation will destroy India. We, in Pakistan don`t give a damn about anything else when it comes to realtions with India. What we want is Kashmir. (Jammu and Ladhakh might be negotible in a final settlement). Whatever we choose to do with it, Kashmir is our business. INDIA GET OUT OF KASHMIR. This is now all that the process of dialogue should consist of. Lord knows India has heard us on this matter before. The question ladies and gentleman is only what punishment shall be meted out for this daily and continuing theft and rape of our lands and people. What will be the penalty we shall impose for this theft. We are not going to wait another 50 years, our patience is NOW at an end. We are quite prepared to pay any price necessary to insure that India returns (voluntarily or otherwise) Kashmir to Pakistan, its lawful sovereign. We don`t want to hear anything further on the matter. Discussion closed. The ends justify whatever means are used to attain our goals. The only language that needs to be spoken from now on is one of bullets, bombs, shells exploding, and the roar of artillery. Pagan-heathen savages must be dealt with firmly. We have been far too lenient with them thus far.

If there are concrete peaceful steps Pakistan should take immediate they are the following:

1) Hold an immediate plebescite under U.N supervision in accordance with U.N Resolutions, in Azad Kashmir, and withdraw the Pakistan Army from Kashmir entirely during the process. After Pakistan has done this, the onus will be on India to comply as well. International pressure will mount on India to follow suit. After such a long time, this would be a bold diplomatic masterstroke of utter genius on the part of Pakistan. The shoe would then be on the other foot. India`s utter moral bankruptcy would stand is sharp contrast to Pakistan`s adherence to the will of the international community.

2) Following the Plebescite, declare all Kashmiris Pakistani citizens, including those in Indian occupied Kashmir (like West Germany dealt with the East Germans prior to 1989 and Germans today worldwide, and like Israel treats Jews worldwide today), with right of automatic residence in Pakistan plus Pakistani passports.

Omar

Re:Everyone

I am not a military expert but wrote that the Kargil mission or war put Pakistan about $5 million more in debt and India had to bear $something millions on its part.

I just wonder how can this be justified when there are many who want to study and cannot get admission because there arn`t many shchools which can accomodate the increasing number of students both in India and Pakistan???

Can someone answer:

Do we really need Agnis and Ghauris or NEDs and IITs??

regards

FT

Re: Najib

At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.

If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.

On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.

In a major diplomatic and political setback to India, the Human Rights Watch on Thursday called on the international community to suspend all military ties with India because of the massive violations of human rights by its military in Kashmir.

``France, Germany, Russia, Britain, United States and India`s other trading partners should suspend all military aid and sales and all programmes of military cooperation with India,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

The demand was made in a report titled ``Behind the Conflict in Kashmir`` that includes a scathing indictment of the Indian security forces and details their horrendous rapes, killings and torture of Kashmiri civilians.

The international community, the Human Rights Watch demanded, should also suspend joint military exercises, until India provides greater accountability on cases of disappearances, torture, and summary killings by its forces in Kashmir and disarms all state-sponsored paramilitary groups operating in Kashmir.

``At the annual World Bank-sponsored donors meeting on India, participant countries should publicly state that continued economic support for India should not be seen as support for the Indian government`s human rights policies,`` the organisation demanded.

``In the statement, and in private and public meetings with Indian government officials, members of the donor group should raise concerns about deteriorating conditions in Doda and other border districts and press India to allow greater access to these areas and other parts of Kashmir to international organisations,`` the Human Rights Watch recommended.

``They should press India to invite the UN special rapporteurs and the working groups to visit Kashmir. They should also raise concerns about attacks on human rights defenders in Kashmir.

``The diplomatic staff of India`s allies and trading partners should make a point of visiting areas of the state outside the Kashmir valley, particularly Doda, Rajouri and Punch, and ensure that their reports reflect current human rights conditions in these areas,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

The report said the escalation in fighting has made it urgent that the international community put pressure on India to end widespread human rights violations by its security forces in Kashmir, and on Pakistan to end its support for militant groups.

The 44-page report focuses on the border areas in southern Kashmir.

Human Rights Watch demanded the Indian government to probe summary executions, disappearances, rape and other assaults by its security forces in Kashmir.

``The government of India should immediately initiate an impartial investigation into reports that the Eighth Rashtriya Rifles Battalion in Doda has been responsible for summary executions, ``disappearances,`` rape, and other assaults on villagers,`` it said.

``Other army units and security personnel named in other incidents of abuse should also be investigated and members found responsible for abuse prosecuted and punished,`` the Human Rights Watch demanded.

``The government of India should disarm and disband all state-sponsored militias not established and regulated by law and prosecute members of such groups who have been responsible for extra judicial killings, ``disappearances,`` assaults, and other abuses.

``The government of India should establish a civilian review board to oversee any rehabilitation program for surrendered militants.

``This review board should have access to records on surrendered weapons and should review vocational training programs to ensure that the former militants are not compelled to serve in state paramilitary forces not established and regulated by law, or induced to take part in security operations that violate international human rights and humanitarian law.

ôAlthough the government of India has promised since 1993 to establish a centralised register of detainees accessible to lawyers and family members, this has never happened.

Nation Newsgroup: 16 July, 99

there is some amount of honesty in your writing. but the problem is that most pakistanis believe kashmir to be some kind of a real estate issue. it is as if getting control over kashmir will solve all the india pakistan problems. the problem between india and pakistan is not the piece of real estate that goes by the name of kashmir. it has a lot to do with the pakistani mindset. after all just 28 years ago, it did have control over east pakistan-what is now known as bangladesh. why did it lose control over this area? the problem pure and simple is that in the first place pakistan has to come to terms with itself. i believe that once the pakistani army its establishment and the people come to terms with themselves, they will stop indulging in such juvenile gimmicks, like the one they tried in kargil. it is true that india did commit a blunder in the sense that it allowed the intruders to settle over such an extended area. and for that we have paid with the lives of our young and valiant soldiers. but it is time that the pakistani establishment realised the fighting the might of the indian army is not like a cricket match. supporting the khalistani militants did not yield any pay off. so supporting the kashmiri militants also is not going to yield dividends. like the punjabis , the kashmiris in india also did not ``rise to the pakistani`` expectations and support such subversive acts. the reason is quite simple. indians unlike the pakistanis are quite at ease with india. and this is true inspite of all the religious and caste divisions. let us face it. there is no substitute for pluralistic society, even though we too have no dearth of fundamentalists who would like to make india a hindu version of pakistan. thank god, they don`t succeed.

Can we keep the discussion civil?

Ilanjetchenni

Re:Omar#41-43

Since you wish to give lessons in history, do you know that Patel had offered Kashmir to Jinnah in exchange for Hyderabad around 1948 ? Jinnah had rejected the offer because he valued Hyderabad more than Kashmir and he felt that he had some chance at getting it. You know quite well that Hyderbad had an overwhelming hindu majority ruled by a muslim ruler. Moreover, Jinnah was also negotiating with the Rajput rulers of Rajasthan although their kingdoms were hindu majority. Jinnah was willing to accept any conditions which would attract them to Pakistan. The reality is that partition was a free for all. Both sides wanted to grab as much territory as possible and they acted in very similar fashion. The only difference is that India managed to get the maximum territory.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, here is a novel suggestion. Why doesn`t Pakistan ask the All Party Hurriyat Conference (APHC) to fight assembly elections in Kashmir ? APHC can continue with its pro Pakistan ideology and demand UN supervisors to ensure no rigging. If APHC can win the elections and form a state government, it would be the clearest signal that Kashmiris want out. It would marginalize Farooq Abdullah and provide a genuine representative to talk to. In 1970, Mujib had fought elections under Pakistani constitution and won it overwhelmingly. As a result, he became the voice of the Bengalis ? Why doesn`t the APHC do the same ? We don`t have to wait till the UN plebiscite to find out what Kashmiris really want.

Finally a thought on your crude, disgusting remarks about Indians and our soldiers. The feelings are mutual on this side. Let me tell you that Pakistan came within inches of getting nuked out of this planet, which made Nawaz run to Washington with his tail between his legs. The mood in India is getting really nasty against Pakistan and people are reaching their limits. If Pakistan keeps this up, India will not be restrained in the future. In a unrestricted nuclear exchange, we may get hurt but you will be vaporized. If you behave like animals, we will do the same and even worse. People like you are a real representative of the Pakistani establishment and their subhuman mindset.

People in India are itching to have an all out war with you and finish it once and for all. However, we will do it with intelligence. First, the government is going to place a three tier security cordon around Kashmir to ensure that Mujahedin cannot enter the heart of Kashmir and all conflict is localized at the borders. I hope that they put in internal fencing within Indian territory to restrict access to most of Kashmir, while extensively landmining the outer areas. Secondly we should set Pakistan on fire. We should send in trained and motivated subversives to carry out mass scale terrorism in Pakistan. We should seek the help of Iranians, Uzbeks and other Central Asians who cannot tolerate Pakistanis and the Taliban to help out. Thirdly we should rope in the Indian muslims to go to Kashmir and lobby them to support India. Fourthly we should do everything possible to crush Pakistan`s residual economy. Wherever, Pakistan has any exports, India should go in and outprice Pakistani goods. If there are any successful businesses, Indian mercenaries should sabotage them. We should contaminate the Indus river waters to ensure that agriculture fails completely in Pakistan. Finally, we should deploy an arsenal of nuclear weapons and a clear plan for the total destruction of Pakistan and Afghanistan, if we need to. It should be a deadly series of strikes that takes out all the urban centers, the military installations and crush these two places once and for all.

Clarification on previous post

When I said 300-400 dead I meant on an average monthly basis from here on in. Now consider the following, Kargil only cost India about 323 dead (offically doctored Indian govt stats), add to that at least another 200 dead they won`t admit to publically. Well, all that effort and it only got us about 500 Indian casulaties, after all that planning. And did it hurt India? Yes. Now what can we do to hurt India more, and raise casualties. Well, 1 SA-7 handheld SAM is not too expensive, nor is an operation requiring at most a dozen operatives in India to secure a location/residence, establish a cover, near either an IAF base or a major civilian airport and shoot down either IAF fighters or transport aircraft, or a large civilian airliner right in the heart of their country from a rooftop location. The objective must be to make them feel vulnerable. For that reason one must strike indiscriminately, relentlessly, and at virtually any target. In fact the target list neeeds to be expanded by the mujahids if we are gonna get Indians to really sit up and take notice and realize Kashmir is a no-win proposition and they are not willing to pay the cost in human/financial terms that will be imposed on India. This needs to be made personal. Yeah, it could be YOU (if you`re Indian) on that plane buddy, reading this right now. So tell me, is it worth YOUR dying so that India can continue to oppress and occupy Kashmir and Kashmiris against their wishes? And steal Pakistani land? Why is India so afraid to hold an Impartial plebescite? Supposedly as they never tire of telling us and the world, its the world`s largest democracy! So arranging one should be too difficult to manage for them IF they want to. And they don`t want to YET. So they must forced into it. Its useless talking to them. They (the Indians) should all become targets. Tell me, O` Indians, how does it feel to become a target? The only good Indian? A dead one. India GET OUT OF Kashmir!

Omar

India; Applying Pakistan`s historical lessons

The lesson from history which Pakistan must learn is that India cannot be trusted. First J.P.K Nehru lied in promising to settle the dispute amicably, and in 1962 when India was being whipped soundly by China, India got the U.S to make Pakistan to forswear any move on Kashmir in return for a promise to settle the dispute after the Indo-Chinese war. Ayub Khan, a simple soldier took their word. Once the crisis was over, the Indians became tone-deaf to the word Kashmir again. Pakistan should have seized this golden opportunity in 1962, when it was at the height of its military power and soundly whipped Indians like the common horse theives they are. For they as a country and people are no better. History has taught us that the only language that gets through to their thick skulls is when you knock their teeth out. Then one can `talk` to them. India get out of Kashmir, or the only way your soldiers will leave will be in bodybags. And if Indians wanna play games with the dead bodies of Pakistani soldiers KIA (See Dawn today), well, just remember that 2 can play this game. We can send your soldiers arthiees (cremated) back, not the bodies next time. See how you guys like that. Aglee baar hum un ka achii tarha Antim Sanskar jaisay Indian movies may dikhaatay hein, KAR KE aap ko wapaas karein gay. See how their near and dear react to that. I think it may now be well past due for some Indian embassies to be bombed around the world. I`m surprised the mujahideen have not already begun a systematic campaign worldwide. Its really the only way to force a settlement in the long term. 300-400 Indian dead every month in Kashmir/Siachin/LOC/Worldwide is an acheivable/imposeable cost. Over a period of a few years the Indian army can be thoroughly demoralized in Kashmir. Funding should be trebled. The mujahids have already started taking on the nest of vipers in their own dens (ex.recent attack on BSF camp inside Kashmir), and the IAF and the Indian army head on directly, as in Kargil. This is a good begining. Let us have more!

Omar

Re: Anarayan

My dear An, do you really think Kashmiris if given the choice, with a free, fair and transparent plebiscite would vote to remain part of India? I seriously doubt that India would get more than 10% of the Kashmiri vote. The formula for self-determination called for by U.N resolution in 1949 is really a face saving way for India to end its illegal occupation of J&K. In fact its a decent way of telling a thief (India) that we`ll, VOTE U OUT, rather than merely kick you out, which in all justice India deserves fully. You people are lucky to be treated so well, you should be treated the way India has treated its own neighbors. Get out of Kashmir while you can with some pride left.

Basically, I guess I need to teach you a history lesson, not the crap they taught you in school growing up which you evidently swallowed hook, line and sinker.

British India had a number of princely states, these states were to be given the free choice to join either Pakistan or India, no other choice was offered. Now that was the first principle. Even Indian historiofabricators should have no problems with this. Now, what India did in fact do was to deprive Munawadar, Hyderabad and Junadgah of this free choice and used force to insure they joined the Indian Union. Sardar Patel is still eulogised for this act. When this occured, the rules of the game changed. India had come out and set the precedent for breaking the basic principle on which the partition of the subcontinent was based in 1947. What this meant was that India has defacto stated that all Hindu majority states were going to be forced to join India, no ifs, ands or buts about. Now, the contrapositive of this principle is also equally simple, i.e Muslim majority areas should thus join Pakistan. You see it was India that abrogated the basic principle of partition, not Pakistan. Therefore, based on logic and fair play alone, the Maharaja`s signiture on the instrument of accession to India, AFTER he had lost control of the state was tantamount to signing a ratti ka kagaz (worthless piece of paper), which had no significance and cannot be used to legitimise Indian occupation of J&K. The U.N General Assembly decided that hey, lets ask the people of Kashmir which state they want to join. This populist principle was not the principle on which British India had been partitioned, neverthless, there is probably no doubt that the other 3 Indian princely states that were annexed would probably have, if they had held a majority vote, voted to join the Indian Union. Similarly, there is little doubt that the Kashmiri people if consulted in 1947, would also have voted to join Kashmir. It is India ironically that introduced this new principle into the partition process. The U.N General Assembly merely gave it sanction in International law. The process of partition is still unfinished today as a result of Indian-Hindu duplicity, typical of the Hindu-bunya mentality of wanting it all (the cake and eating it as well), willing to squeeze every last drop from the poor peasants given the opportunity-chance, without a care (this is an excellent characterization of India`s International behavior). Now, no where was it ever stated that the Kashmiris had the right to independence, as opposed to accession to either India or Pakistan if that is what your comments are implying.

It is only the norms of democracy, and the seemingly intractable nature of the Kashmir conflict between India and Pakistan that have given birth to this new notion of a third way.

Any questions? I just call a spade, a spade. No need to mince words.

Omar

Re: zeemax

Okay, to answer your question about an Indian blocade of Pakistan`s shipping lanes, the answer is that it can be effected with varing results.

On the computer sim, what became clear was that Indian Navy has the means to chortle Pakistan shipping lanes, but it will have to operate around 250-500kms from the Pakistani coast, within Pakistan`s exclusive economic zone and it will need to deploy its surface assets through the entire lenght of Pakistan`s coastline. This type of a deployment is ideal if the intention is to stop smuggling, but it limits Indian tactical options in a war. Such a deployment would put the Indian Navy`s surface assets within the combat radius of PAF`s fleet of Mirage Vs, which are armed with Exocet AIM-39 (range 45kms)and Harpoon ASM (range 85+kms)missiles. The effective range of Mirage Vs is about 1500+ kms and given the relativily short distance to the Indian ships, their capacity to loiter over the target area would be around 30-45 minutes. Thus, to avoid this threat, the Indian can only move east, because if they move west and north they will heading towards the Arabian peninsula, which raises a whole set of other problems.

Another fact to be considered is that since the Indians are without a carrier, since Vikrant is being consigned to scrap, the Indian Navy would find itself without any early warning and effective fighter cover in case if Pakistan launches an ``vampire`` - air attack. Yes, the Indians out number the Pakistani Navy in total maritime surveillance aircraft (4:1), they can warn the Indian Navy, but they can not provide an effective CAP over Indian assets, which would limit Indian Navy`s overall operational intent in interdicting Pakistani shipping lanes.

This does not mean that Pakistani shipping will have an easy time, and if the Indians deploy their assets, tactically, outside of the Straits of Hormuz, they can easily intercept Pakistan bound ships. The question then is how to identify ships bound for Karachi and the Indians can not board any vessel they like, because that would be a violtion of the admirality laws on commerce on the open seas and the biggest patron of this international law priniciple is America. I highly doubt the Indian Navy wants the American naval assets in the Arabian Gulf to moniter its movements.

The only trick to circumvent the Indian blocade, and it worked in the sim, would require the cooperation of the Iranians. If the Iranians would give safe passage, the ships bound for Pakistan can sail within Iranian territorial waters, upon reaching the western end of Hormuz, near Bahrain, and thus, simply pass into Pakistani territorial waters. Iranians might be convinced to do this, but then in return they would surely ask Pakistan to do something about the violence between sunnis and shias in Pakistan.

Hence, the whole enterprise devolves into a series of trade-offs. What is the final cost and how bad does one want to pay for it!

Hope this helps.....

Re: anarayan # 23

This belated reply is in response to your question of where I got the information on the high accident rate of the Indian Air Force. That information came from an article in The Times of India, June 13, 1998, which reported the 1998 Report of the Comptoller and Auditor-General of India. According to that report, IAF lost 187 aircraft and 63 pilots killed between 1991-97. Of the 187 aircraft, which crashed 147 were totally destroyed and beyond repair.

In a similar period PAF lost 35 aircraft.

This fact was further complimented by the Military Balance 1998/1999 of the Insitute for Strategic Studies, published by the Oxford University Press. MB`s report said that the high rate of IAF accidents was due to the fact that IAF was still using Kiran Mark II and Polish Iskra basic trainers and it was using the MiG 21UB as an advanced trainer for conversion purposes. The IAF students could not handle the MiG 21UB, because while they were accustomed to react within minutes on the Kiran, the MiG was forcing them to react within seconds. The IAF pilots were having spatial problems of reacting and antcipating situations ahead of time and this was severely impacting their sense of situtional awareness.

Situational Awarness is a term, which means that the pilot must be aware of his immediate surroundings and he must have at all times a 3D mental picture, based on the data available to him. Also, he must at all times know the orientation of his aircraft to the ground, while being mindful of his vector, altitude, speed and the energy ``bleed`` of his aircraft; thrust to weight ratios and how to continually maximize aircraft performance rates while in flight.

I think that it was Najib who mentioned that IAF suffers a high accident rate than IAF, because it pilots fly more sorties and thus log more flight hours.

This is not true either. According MB, the most hours logged per year was by the United States Air Force, which averaged about 230 hrs per year for its pilots; PAF was second with its pilots arveraging 220 hrs per year. Israeli Air Force came in at 180 hrs per year and the IAF average was 130 hrs per year.

Hope this answers your questions about the source of my infomation.

Interesting article Mr. Khan (though

I do not share many of your analysis

and conclusions).

Here is a link to an article by Eric Arnett

that deals partly with the air thinking on the part of India and Pakistan (with a relevant reference to retired Air Marshal Ayaz Ahmed Khan`s article ``Challenge of the Indian Air Threat`` in The Nation in 1997). The article

itself is larger in scope (title: ``Nuclear

Stability and Arms Sales to India: Implications for U.S. Policy).

http://www.armscontrol.org/ACT/august/arnett.html

Ilanjetchenni

Re: OMAR1974 Reply #: 37

``... but until all of Kashmir is part of Pakistan, and India ends its illegal occupation of Kashmir,India and Indians shall remain orgre(s)#1 for almost all Pakistanis``.

We HAVE (unwittingly) admitted it, have we !

At least spare us the rhetoric on ``self-determination of kashmiris`` and ``freedom struggle``. If you (ever) thought that India did`nt see through your BS, think again.

Amit #33 or 31? Anyway, Sure there are a ton of problems in Pakistan (I never said there weren`t), but until all of Kashmir is part of Pakistan, and India ends its illegal occupation of Kashmir, India and Indians shall remain orgre(s)#1 for almost all Pakistanis.

Omar

Here is a list of some more weapons projects and weapons being made by Pakistani defense industries.

The following systems are being made by Dr. A.Q. Khan Labs, at Kahuta

Surface to Air guided missiles (Anza Mk I and II);
Anti Tank Guided missile Weapons System; Anti Tank Mine Clearing Charges; Remote Control Mine Exploders; MBRLS (Multi Barrel Rocket Launcher);
Laser Range Finders; Laser Threat Senors; Laser
Actuated Target; Laser Aiming Device; Digital Goniometers; TOW Missiles Modules; Add-on Reactive Armor kits.

Also, the following systems and sub-systems are in R&D status or in prouction with the following firms:

ATCOP Drivers Night Sight for T-Series Tanks
ATCOP Intergrated Fire Control Systems
ATCOP Laser Range Finders for T-Series Tanks
(Al Technique Corp. Pakistan)

DNVP-1A Drivers Night Viewers
AN/PVS-5A Night Vision Goggles Third Generation
(Insitute of Optronics)

100mm APFSDS Tank Barrels
(Machinecrafts, Pvt. Lahore)

155mm; 130mm, 125mm, HEAT SABOT, FE, projectiles plus 125mm; 81mm, 75mm mortar rounds and small arms munitions
(Pakistan Ordnance Factories)

Below is a list of other defense related firms in Pakistan:

Insitute of Optronics
Pakistan Ordnance Factories
Dr. A.Q. Khan Labs
Al-Technique Corp.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (Aircraft Manufacturing Complex; Mirage and Chinese aircrafts)
Heavy Industries (production M113 APCs and Khalid MBT)
Machinecrafts
Alsons Industries
Military Vehicile Research and Development Establishment.

These are some of the defense related projects presently being undertaken by Genesis Real Time, a software company in Pakistan, for Pak armed forces.

AIR COMBAT MANEUVERING INSTRUMENTION SYSTEM

The Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) System was a joint effort between the Air Weapons Complex and Genesis Real Time. The software of this system was developed by Genesis Real Time and the airborne and ground based hardware by the AWC.

The purpose of the ACMI system is to aid the debriefing of PAF pilots after an air to air combat training mission. The ACMI system consists of airborne data recorders installed on all aircrafts taking part in a training mission. These recorders record the aircraft`s flight parameters. After the completion of a mission, the ground based debrief system assimilates all the aircrafts data and recreates the whole mission in 3D computer generated graphics for the pilots debriefing.

In this system, the mission can be played at various speeds. The users have several viewing options. They can select the pilots view and view the mission from the cockpit of any selected aircraft. Or they can select the perspective view to view the maneuvers from any point of the exercise space outside the aircraft by controlling the viewing angle and distance.

The system can display a single view on the monitor screen or split the viewscreen to show 2 or 4 independent views on the same monitor. The user can configure each split section independently to provide several different perspectives of the same scenario.


PROJECTS FOR CELSIUSTECH NAVAL SYSTEMS AB (Sweden)

Software Consultancy and Development Services

Genesis Real Time had signed a contract with CelsiusTech to provide various software consultancy and development services in 1997. This contract was renewed for another year in 1998.

Logistics Database

Designed and developed a Logistics Database software for one of CelsiusTech`s customers. Genesis was also responsible for carrying out front-end analysis and generation of a format requirement specification.

Visit CelsiusTech [http://www.celsiustech.se]


SKY TRACKER & SKY NAVIGATOR

Sky Tracker and Sky Navigator constitute a suite of software for the ground-based tracking of remotely piloted vehicles (RPV`s)/unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV`s). This software suite was developed for the Air Weapons Complex when it embarked on a project for the indigenous development of UAV`s in the middle of 1998. The software gets the UAV`s GPS positional data from a radio data link. This data is used to show the position of the UAV as a 2D plot along with essential UAV data like, speed, altitude, heading etc. This plot can be overlaid onto area maps also. This information is used by the pilot for flying the UAV beyond visual range.

The software has mission planners with way-points and labels for landmarks and mission timers. It can log the mission data and then later play it back for evaluation. The software also controls the main video link directional antenna to ensure clear reception of the Video Data from the UAV.

Sky Tracker is optimized for the use of the UAV`s pilot, feeding him critical data required for control of the vehicle beyond visual range. Sky Navigator is optimized for the use of the video / intelligence operator who controls the video data from the UAV.

These software have been developed keeping in mind the requirements of local as well as international customers.


CBT ON THE STARTING FUEL SYSTEM OF AN AIRCRAFT FOR PAF

Developed an interactive multimedia CBT application on the Starting Fuel System of an aircraft whose duration is 30 CBT minutes. The work on the application involved complete design (outlines, flows, storyboards, scripting, etc.), and development. The CBT was fully interactive and was based on audio narratives, text, custom graphics, custom animation, pictures and video (with custom narration) for just in time concept reinforcement. Hyperlinking was also used to allow the student to jump to related areas instantly. In addition to the basic lesson, it consisted of a virtual laboratory where the student could see the working of an aircraft`s