A Road To Siachen

Re: Icon # 73

Just out of interest, what did India win in Kargil? Has this issue been settled for once and for all and will never flare up again? Did the crisis in Kargil restore the LoC in some way that such events in the future will not happen again? Has Kargil stopped the huge loss of money and lives on the Siachen, which India is presently suffering? Has Kargil lessened India`s military committment to region, because India ``won`` and there is no more disagreements on the LoC with Pakistan? What did India win? Did India win regional security for its side of the LoC? Did India win by putting an end to issue of Kashmir finally? Just what did India win?

Yes, Pakistan ended up with a bloody nose, but India did not emerge from this mess smelling like roses either!

Re: Jay # 72

Jay, I was amused to hear your remarks about the military being brain dead. Yeah, sure.....

Moshe Dyan was brain dead when he led the Isrealis against the Arab forces and so was Yitzak Rabin, who as Israel Army`s Chief of Staff, planned the Israeli raid to rescue the hostages from Entebbe. May be the Indian General Makenshaw was brain dead too when he planned and executed the Indian Army`s brilliant use of helicopters to over come river obstacles in East Pakistan, which caused so much grief to General Niazi and the Pakistani Army!

Yeah, I guess you`re right. Erwin Rommel was brain dead too when he was tactical nightmare for the British Eight Army in North Africa and so too was the American Caesar, Douglas MacArthur, when he planned his island hopping campaign in the Pacific against the Japanese. I guess it takes no real skills or brains to plan and execute massive landings, such as Normandy or Inch`on. I guess General George Patton was brain dead too when he organized the relive of the 101st Airborne surrounded by German SS troops in Bastgone, by disenegaing in the middle of a battle, and advancing nearly 150 kms in 24 hours.

Yeah, Jay, you`re absolutely right and I have to wonder why huge corporations want their executives to have the skills necessary in a military environment: leadership, problem solving, ability to organize resources and effectivily use them. If the military mind is so brain dead as you claim, could you please tell why the Chinese military strategist Sun Tzu`s Art of the War is required reading for your average corporate raider?

Thanks Jay! I needed that laugh!

Re: Ferozk

Ferozk

`` Just out of interest, what did India win in Kargil? ``

-- I agree, the truth is on a grander perspective India did not win either. More money would be spent on the ARMED forces, and on defence of the country henceforth. There would be an increase in terrorism and counter-terrorism in Kashmir.

I was only pointing out the tendency of some of your fellow countrymen to look for victories where none existed. I was only criticising the view point of some pakistanis who would only believe what they like to believe. .

The one thing India did win though was that there was a national camaraderie from North to South, and East to West and people started rediscovering their inherent Indianness. India did prove to itself that during a crises, we react as Indians and not as communities, castes , and creeds. But then the costs were prohibitive.

A needless adventure which just killed a lot of people on both sides.

-- Iconoclast.

Re; Amit or the other Indian who wished me ill obliquely

Someone made a comment that Indian RAW should target Paki military families living abroad, or something like it in what was intended to be an obvious reference to me. Now i want this idolater to see what has happened in response to his plea. The Lord of the Worlds, not ever to be confused with some pathar ki murti, has ironically answered your plea. Read on for yourself, the result of your perverse wish. Those who wish for our destruction, shall only live long enough to see their loved ones and commmunity hurt.

Two killed, 16 wounded in Kashmir Grenade Attack

SRINAGAR, July 21: Suspected ``Muslim militants`` threw a hand grenade into a crowded market in Kashmir today, killing two civilians and wounding another 16, police said. The attack took place in a crowded vegetable market in Baramulla, 55 kilometers (34 miles) north of the Indian Kashmiri summer capital of Srinagar, a police official said. Two soldiers were among the wounded. The market is a favourite spot for the FAMILIES OF SECURITY PERSONNEL (my capitalization).

The attack created panic in the streets, prompting shopkeepers in the town of Baramulla to lower their shutters. Indian troops have cordoned off the area and launched a massive search operation.

More than 24,000 people have been killed since 1989 in separatist violence in Kashmir, India`s only Moslem-majority state. Authorities here fear that the recent two-month conflict with Pakistan-backed forces in Kashmir could lead to a major upswing in separatist activity in the disputed Himalayan territory. (AFP)

If anyone wants to claim that Pak won in the Kargil episode, be my guest. It is not new for Pakistani`s to make tall claims even when they lose miserably. You did win the worldcup too did u not ? having shown the world that u could have won if u wanted to .......ha..ha..ha.. (however the whole wide world thinks differently)

YES, BE MY GUEST...PAKISTAN DID WIN....(why are a few pakistanis saying differently...oh.oh they must be RAW agents). And why is no Indian saying that they lost ((don`t be dumb....they are Indians and they always lie))

PAKISTAN = PROPAGANDA....

Iconoclast

Omar

I liked your rseponse to my post, fairly objectve with mild dose of your usual venom. To talk of labour shortage in india, especially in the army where all trainings are done in house, shows a lack of understanding of the indian situation.

To be selected to the military still demands above average physical fitness. Among the uni graduates, military was never attractive and always attracted those withoyut much of any scholastic aptitude and correctly so, military is for the brain dead.

The comment in the original article that there is a shortage of recruits into the officer cadre is merely a plagiarism of the generalised remarks about military recruitment in the western countries and has no relevance to india.

So, you people think that `Pakistan lost` the Kargil Crisis, and `India Won`? Think again. Well, from a strategic point of view Pakistan has already won. The cost of India mainting 10,000 troops year round in Kargil, Drass, Batalik is reported by Indian newspapers to be 100 million rupees (thats about $2 million daily added to Indian army cost of operations alone). Siachin costs India and Pakistan $1 million and $700,000 daily respectively. It also costs the Indian army hundreds more dead due to the climactic conditions alone, which are not better in Kargil-Drass-Batalik (they occupy the heights at Siachin). So, India has now been forced to spend $2m/day ($730 million annually) extra in its desperate bid to continue its illegal occupation of Kashmir and its resulting confrontation with Pakistan. This is a victory for India, of pyhrric proportions. Pakistan`s total cost for this operation $5-10 million and perhaps 500+ dead. India`s cost of eviction was over $200 million. As I said earlier, Pakistan will bleed India white to the bone. Over a decade that is an additional $7 billion! To put things into perspective, the 300 T-90 Tanks India is acquiring from Russia cost $750 million USD. Resources are not unlimited. Poverty striken India cannot afford this, as sane Indians will privately admit. This is a disaster for India. After having lost a few hundred troops, defending worthless territory has become a national point of honor for them. This is excellent. Pakistan has succeeded in its strategic aims w/o increasing its own costs appreciably.

Omar

Re: Omar

Ja? Seine gross-mutter and vater sind Deutsch? Sprachen sie Deutsch oder English im deine Haus mit deine gross-mutti oder vati?

Re: Jay #61

Frankly Jay, the facts simply do not support your conclusions, which you posted this article in support of, and only demonstrate that your basic assumptions on which your conclusions rest, are highly questionable. The article demonstrates NOT that the Indian masses are super-patriotic, but rather the massive unemployment rate in India and the large pool of desperate job seekers, so desperate that they turn blood thirsty in their effort to seek succor for their distended bellies, which led this mob to such desperate acts as killing police officers (state officials, which amount to an act of treason, one wonder if they would hesitate to kill their own officers in war, or mutiny under fire?), just for the chance to enlist in the army (guaranteed life time employment afterall). Feroz talked about the Indian middle class deserting the IAF/Indian armed forces, particularly the officer corps, not these unqualified ill disciplined masses. In fact, if this is the caliber of the Indian army recruits, frankly, its no wonder the Indian army is guilty of committing atrocities in Kashmir. You have just given us proof of it! You`ve also showwn us why the insurgency continues against all odds in the valley. Such people, are fresh meat for the kill. Also, i don`t think the Pakistan army will be too worried about facing this quality of humans in a war. Faceless Mobs, are easily dispatch once the fighting becomes personal, and individuals remember to save their own skins under fire and become aware of just how vulnerable they are.

regards,

Omar

Re: Amit

Point well taken, this issue is highly emotional and hence, all the reason to approach it with a cool head. You seem to be correct in identifying Kashmir as the sine qua non and as a rasion d`etre of Pakistan. Pakistan needs to de-link Kashmir as its main focus, because it is effectivily curtailing our options to deal with the crisis and only seems to limit our flexibility in dealing with the problem.

Re: Rishi

Rishi, I can follow your advice and refrain from involving myself, but I would only be defeating my own purposes. The reason why I objected to Omar`s posts is, because I fail to understand the source of his hatred and why he persists to demonize and belittle Indians.

Personally speaking, there have been times when I find myself in disagreement with the Indians and what their stance on an issue might have been. However, despite my disagreements with them, I have never opted, or felt the need, to demonize them or belittle them as a people. This is the crux of my question. I would really like to know why Omar can not argue an issue without turning it into a personal grudge match and a verbally abusive interact session?

Re: anarayan

My reference, and article, was on the Pakistani military mind and how it sought to change the equation in Kashmir. In hindsight it was a brilliant strategy if you consider the amount of logistical planning, the training involved, the deception of intent, the covert infilteration into Indian Kashmir and the creation of a support system, which kept the Indian army occupied for a better part of nearly two months trying to re-take the heights.

The fact that it did not work, does not lessen its scope of audacity, because it does offer a textbook model, for professional military planners, to study on how to organize and sustain a military campaign in the mountains. The German Army`s Schlieffen Plan, for the invasion of France during the First World War, was absolutely brilliant despite its failures and it is still a required course of study at all of the worlds` military academies, including at Dehra Dun, on how to plan an offensive.

The Germans lost the Battle of Kursk to the Soviet Red Army, in 1943, but that did not prevent the Israeli armorored forces from adopting it a as role model for their armored forces` training. In fact, the role models for Israeli tankers ares not the Americans or their armor doctrines, but the German Panzerfuhrers of World War Two. Moshe Dyan`s hero was Guderian! Israelis train their armor officers to react like the Germans used to in a battle. Why would they do this if the Germans lost the war?

Do you know that most air force academies teach their students on how to conduct air strikes, on naval ships, by using the model of Iraqi Air Force`s attack on the American naval vessel USS Stark? Why, because it was a textbook operation, which covered all the basics even though the Iraqi Air Force is now considered as a joke!

Consequently, just because I applaud Pakistan`s logistical accumen in Kargil does not mean that I fail to realize the problems of Pakistani military or those of South Asia`s missed opportunites! :)

Re: OMAR1974

What is up with you and this German accent? Omar, since we are speaking German, I have to ask you: was ist los mit du?

A nuclear war should always be considered as ein verboten logik (a forbidden logic or an idea)and it should never be considered as a viable option to any problem. Also, just because you have access to nuclear weapons does not mean that they should be used, because the real value of nuclear weapons lies in their deterrenence and not in their use.

In other words, just because a person owns a firearm, a hand gun, it does not mean that he should play Russian roulette with it!

What i`m trying to tell ya Feroz: (transliteration)tu arey ageis!

Feroz: Akhtuliebe mein en got! Zum Donne-vetta nokhe mal! (just my attempt at transliteration)

(my grandma is German, my dad speaks German, my g.grandmuther was German, any more questions? :)

Omar

Re: Amit Reply #: 63

`` ... I am sorry for the outburst ...``

(No semblance of an apology from the other side we note). Amit, You did serve a purpose though. My general appraisal is that most pakistanis have a pseudo-macho outlook. I hesitate to say this, but it could be an offshoot of the `punjabi` culture - arrogance and bombast, which is magnified 10-fold in pakistan by propaganda and delusions of grandeur.

Pakistan is a pseudo democracy. The army operates independent of any civilian control. The generals don`t give a damn what their actions lead to. We need to make them pay for their little games. To your earlier suggestions, I would add this. Let the Indian intelligence create an assasination wing something on the lines of Israel`s Mossad. This should target the wealth and families of these military personel settled abroad (one of who I suspect contributes his puerile outpourings to this chat).

It would be nice to see Musharraf shed some real tears, instead of the `magarmach` variety for the 700 NLI soldiers - who died for his whim.

Re: Ferozk

Feroz, don`t sully urself by replying to sh * *.

-- Rishi

Re:Ferozek #49

Feroze, I am sorry for the outburst in my previous posting. After reading Omar`s postings, I had simply lost my cool and responded in kind. Since I consider myself to be a moderate, I was surprised at how easy it is to get emotionally carried away on Indo-Pak issues.

On the topic of Kashmir, the only practical solution is some sort of a compromise that requires all the three parties - Indians, Pakistanis and Kashmiris to move away from their stated positions. It is impossible to implement any one-sided solution that will be humiliating for any of the three parties. I feel that India had started this process with the Lahore declaration. Since the root of the problem lies in hindu-muslim tensions and partition, it makes sense to ask for trade, people to people relations etc. to improve the atmosphere, so as to reach a solution in Kashmir.

After the Kargil affair, people in India are beginning to realize that it is next to impossible to deal with Pakistan. One day you are invited to Lahore and everyone is doing the Bhangra, next day there is war, the third day you again want peace; how can anybody deal with this ? In spite of all the talk about Kashmir, Pakistan has never really launched a full scale invasion of Kashmir. This means that they would want negotiations. However, at the same time Pakistan seems to be adamant about not allowing people to people relations or trade relations. This means that the atmosphere remains vicious and unfriendly and hence we do not see any chance of a solution. It defies logic as to how this policy helps helps the Kashmir cause. The only explanation is that Kashmir is a vested interest for the Pakistani establishment and they are not really interested in solving the problem.

What is really disturbing is that the Pakistani establishment has embraced a doctrine wherein Kashmir is the sole agenda for Pakistan without allowing any solution to actually occur. It is nothing but a ploy to initiate and maintain a Jihad atmosphere against India. The fact that Pakistan seems to have little interest in socio-economic improvement shows that it only wants a negative agenda of spreading Taliban style Jihad in its neighborhood in Afghanistan and South Asia. It is hard to understand the ultimate objective because it cannot be explained by religion. After all, Islam was created as a positive force that encouraged education, knowledge, civilization and socio-economic equality. It is no wonder that Indian muslims are completely supporting India as they know that Pakistan`s policies have nothing to do with Islam. The civil and military leaders in Islamabad are embracing a mad policy and India is unable to develop the right response.

Re: Ferozk Reply #: 55

``The future of Pakistan and India can be better served by investing in education than in missiles,but then again, this is what makes the tragedy of the sub-continent so bitter-sweet, because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided.``

Strange turnaround - from one who was highlighting pakistan`s ``briliant strategy`` in kargil only a few mails ago ?!

Perhaps he just forgot to complete the sentence - ``... because it is a tragedy, which can easily be avoided...``

I would hazard a few guesses:

``...if these Indians just give us the rest of kashmir.``

``...if the Indian Army allows us to creep in all the way to Ladakh.``

``...if uncle Sam and brother Han show some support.``

There is a comment in the article yhat india is finding difficulty in recruiting army personnel and is running low on recruitment aspirants. The following report could be of interest to khan when he revises the article to `the road away from kargil`

Army job seekers go berserk again

By Our Staff Correspondent

PATNA, JULY 17. At least three persons were killed and over 60, including a score of police personnel, injured today when the aspirants for Army posts turned violent at Darbhanga, Chapra and Aurangabad district headquarters. Police opened fire at the mob which snatched police weapons and fired at them and indulged in arson.

According to the Home Secretary, Mr. U. N. Panjiar and the DGP, Mr. K. A. Jacob, the turnout at the three district headquarters was beyond expectations and when things went out of control, the police opened fire at Darbhanga and Chapra. While one person died in Darbhanga, two were killed in the Chapra incident. The police however, maintained that only one person had died of bullet injuries, in Chapra.

There were no casualties in Aurangabad and the number of injured in the clash between the police and the aspirants was put at six.

The officials maintained that the mob in Darbhanga snatched a rifle from a constable and shot at and injured him. While in Chapra an ASI was relieved of his revolver and was shot at. His condition has said to be critical.

Following the incident, the Army today cancelled the recruitment drive schedule for July 21 in Darbhanga.

Unofficial sources however put the death toll in the two police firing at six.