Falsehoods Galore

Re: AD

``. I respect them because their practises were based on an age old wisdom, that currently has become obsolete. ``

nothing exemplified the title of this article than this statement. Falsehood galore

Why would you respect someone who follows something that is obsolete. ? beats me

Opinions like yours are more detrimental to India than muslim terrorists, or pakistan.

--

Iconoclast

AD:

I was saddened to read your comments. The extent to which educated people will clutch at straws to find some justification for the caste system - ``death of ayurvedic medicine, viral infections``. Cant you have the courage to say - ``we have some garbage in our past and we are throwing it out``?

Have the courage to say - ``our society was indeed flawed in the past but as the current generation we will reduce the flaws in the future``. Dont sugar coat casteism.

Caste System in Hinduism:

On a historical note, caste system in India was not meant to be rigid. It was a broad way of grouping people based on their occupations. There was no hard and fast rule that people born in the family of a cobbler could not become a teacher, or a warrior.

Now I came across a scholar who presented an intriguing hypothesis. He claimed that the rigidity in the caste system creeped in with the general decline of the ancient Ayurvedic system of medicine. His claim was that due to the loss of that ancient science, the local vaids (doctors) could not cure illnesses that arose out of bacterial infection. This caused a large number of them to die, on the slimest exposure to infection.

The people who worked with infectious materials such as hides, skins (Shurdras) developed an immunity to that since they were exposed to those infections since childhood.

This caused them to become untouchables, because even though they were immune to the infections, they could still pass it on to others.

It may sound far fetched to you untill you look at the practise, as it is followed. A lot of infections are air borne, and hence Brahmins and others who did not have immunity to the diseases would turn around and walk away from the Shudras. The Shudras were not allowed to drink water from the same well or go to the same temple.

All these are precautions that one takes when he is trying to cut down the risk of getting infected. Think about it, a simple fever (caused by non-viral bodies,) is simple, to us because of

the discovery of penicillin/anti-biotics. But it was not simple for our great grand parents. For them an infection like typhoid, or whatever would be fatal.

Lets think about it in todays terms. Imagine if a mutated form of the aids virus was found, that could be transmitted via the air. Then would you not put all the AIDS patients in seclusion and avoid them like the Plauge ?

I for one would believe in the above hypothesis. That is why I respect people who currently follow castesim. I respect them because their practises were based on an age old wisdom, that currently has become obsolete.

AD

Guys, I must admit that personally I have never experienced discrimination in India. Wether it was because I am a Hindu or wether it was becuase I did not come in contact with undeucated people, I do not know.

I do know that my maternal side of the family comes from UP, and there caste and untouchability is very prevelant. The only way that it will go away, is when the economic situation of the region improves. That is why in the business area of Delhi, and Bombay it does not matter who you are. As long as you make money, you are up there.

I am not sure how one should act when faced with discrimination. My mother tells me that in the past, people would not take such incidents to heart. In fact it was very common for muslims and Hindus to be friends, but when serving food, they would server the muslim in a different plate, and that plate would not be used by anyone else subsequently. The muslim would respect the Hindu`s host out of politeness, and that`s it.

In fact my gardener is a Brahmin. He comes to our house, but he will not eat food at our place. And strangely enough, that does not really bother me. Its his belief and if he wants to follow it then thats OK by me. I would care if he was refusing to give me a job because of his beliefs becasuse that would directly affect my economic well being.

BUt other wise, it does not matter to me.

So one way of looking at racism/castesim is to not pay too much of attention to it. So you go to a wedding, and this Brahmin preist comes to you and says that you cannot sit here, you tell him, that if he has a problem, he can go sit wherever he wants. You do not have to move. But do not let his words hurt you, because that is his opinion and not the truth. And the only think that should affect you is the Truth.

Studebaker:

All countries are far from perfect. America is a good country with regard to minority rights. It is not perfect, it is not great, it is good. Similarly, India is not great, it is not good, it is just about average. (However, in some important ways, India is better because our culture is more diverse.It is a lot more acceptable to wear a turban or a skull cap or have an open beard in India - in the US, although they tolerate it they think of you as ``strange`` if you do these things). Since everybody is far from perfect, one has to expect setbacks and not think that a single instance of failure condemns the whole system. We have to be careful to not become negative when we criticize.

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Studebaker:

You are now criticizing India to increase awareness of people about minority problems - this is the action of a patriotic Indian. Anybody who criticizes with the idea of helping India improve is a true Indian. More than a person who keeps quiet and allows people to trample the rights of others.

Like a mother who scolds her son to make sure he learns some lessons for the future, you should keep scolding India. Do it out of love and even out of anger but dont do it out of hate.

PS: This was in response to a posting you had made in an article that has disappeared.

Maharaj:

You seem to be a very immature guy. First of all for you to argue with Iconoclast that no Brahmin could have insulted is him because Brahmins are persecuted is the weakest form reasoning. There are bigots and persecuted in all communities - that seems to be a simple point. Let us assume people are telling the truth in terms of facts and let us discuss opinions. For example, Studebaker says he was pulled off a train. We have to assume he is telling a true story and then decide what lessons are to be drawn from that incident. For you to question the truth of what are very possible situations means we cannot have any discussion because we are just accusing others of lying. The problem is not in truth versus lies but in how we interpret the same set of facts. After the train incident, Studebaker could have decided to keep quiet, kill the policeman, talk about it on Chowk, feel alienated from India forever, hate Hindus, work to improve India etc. etc. - we have to debate these types of responses

Why are you asking Icon if it is justified that a Muslim cut a Brahmins sacred thread? Does he have to answer for each and every act of each and every Muslim? This type of stereotyping is what causes problems. You must improve your level of conversation.

Re; Maharaj.

Hey,,,no offence please. I don`t subscribe to anti-brahminism or anti-anything. Was just highlighting one event where when i had to visit a brahmin wedding, an elderly brahmin seeing me asked my brahmin friend in chaste tamil as to why i a shudra was invited on the auspicious occasion. However i just brushed it off as it did not mean anything to me. But then, i also agree with u that today, Brahmins are the most maligned people atleast in TamilNadu. But being a well educated and stronged willed people, they are still achieving a very high degree of success. Let me also tell u that my best friend is a brahmin and i respect his mother as i would my mother. Hopefully, someday in the future we would forget all these differences. Education and social improvement and reduction in economic disparity are the only remedy for all this is my guess.

Iconoclast (no offence meant )

-- just highlighting some Muslims in occupations that were considered non-muslim in India

They are the blue-eyed boys of Police Commissioner L. Revannasiddaiah, the crime-busting dare-devil cops of the Bangalore police force. Inspector Abdul Azeem (46) and Assistant Commissioner G Ahmed Bawa (49), have cracked many a baffling case, restoring the wobbly faith of Bangaloreans in its police force. From nabbing the kidnappers of millionaire businessman Jaipuria to handcuffing fugitive underworld don Tanveer, they have done it all.

On June 25, they were rewarded for their efforts with a sandalwood baton by the Commissioner. Bangalore

Re: Studebaker.

OK, finally i have an inkling as to where u are coming from. But then, let me tell u , u`re experiences are not unique. They have happened to me too. to quote a minor instance During college, after a cricket match between India and Pakistan, some of my friends had the nerve to ask me if i supported India or Pakistan. The funny part is , one of my friends, the class topper, a hindu was an ardent Imran Khan fan and was supporting pakistan . And no one dared to question his patriotism. Angry i was, but then with a few minutes of retrospection, i realized how the surcharged communal situation is affecting even normal people. I just told them that they have no business to ask me what they did. And i asked them how would they feel if i ask the same question to them ? This is only one of the instances. I have been victimised more severely on account of being a south indian (while in Bombay--saala kala madrasi), a muslim , a Tamilian (in Bangalore -- called derogately as a konga nmeaning monkey and refused to be served water at the height of the cauvery crises in hotes and in kerala ), a non-brahmin by brahmins (shudra), a non-anyone by anyone...(all assorted castes and communities stick together)..etc., Funnily my own community too behaved just like that and had derogatory names for everyone of the above people. However, the truth is all these happenings are only exceptions when compared to the majority. The majority of people i have known from all these different parts have always been friendly at best and not bothered about my identity at worst. Hence i would not insult these saner people by being disparaging towards the whole nation just because of the actions of a few....

It would be an insult to the normal person when we attribute an exception`s actions towards him/her. Can i hate my hindu friend because Advani happens to be hindu ? Can i hate my hindu neighbours who pray in a Muslim mosque en-route to their sabarimala pilgrimage, because of Babri masjid episode.? And if i did, am i being fair to them ??? What if they hate me for what the mujahiddeen do to the hindu pandits in kashmir, or what pakistan does to India ? or the assorted muslim gundas did in bombay ?

These are the questions u need to ask yourself, Studebaker.....happy interospection

iconoclast

Studebaker:

Dilip Dsouza makes some good points and some stupid ones. There is no similarity between a man-of-the-match award and Nishan-e-Pakistan. Azharuddin may have also won some man-of-the-match awrds from Pakistan. The Ganguly-Dilip Kumar comparison is very stupid. There is only one living Indian who has the Nishan-e-Pakistan.

There are good reasons to return the Nishan-e-Pakistan and there are good reasons to keep it. Good and decent people can disagree on this matter. I remember at the time of Operation Bluestar, Khushwant Singh returned all titles he had received from the Government of India. I disagreed with him and wrote him a letter. He replied saying that he thought Bluestar was stupid and would cause a divide between Hindus & Sikhs. I think history probably has proven Khushwant Singh right but, thanks be to God, Hindu-Sikh relations are fast recovering to the solid state they have had for centuries.

Unfortunately, I do agree with Dsouza when he says that Muslims live under a prove-your-loyalty cloud. This is partly the fault of communal Hindus and partly the fault of the fact that the biggest supporters of Partition in the 1940s were UP & Bihari Muslims. Its a new generation of Muslims and they should not suffer the deeds of their fathers. But with the Kashmir pot boiling mainly on religious grounds, non-Muslim Indians are constantly confused by the commitment of the Muslims to India and have some basis for these unfortunate loyalty tests. I, for one, have Muslim Indian friends and read the posts of Iconoclast, Jawahara, Najib and other Muslims and say the glass is more than half-full. Others may read your posts and interviews with Amanullah Khan of JKLF and say the glass is half-empty. This is the unfortunate residue of the two-nation theory.

If Kashmir stays with India forever, we will have the best of both worlds: the two-nation theory held true and valid by the continued and hopefully prosperous existence of the Islamic Republics of Bangladesh and Pakistan and secularism held valid by the existence of a Muslim majority state in India. Maybe that way both sides can declare victory and move on. It may help stop the need for these horrible loyalty tests.

STUDEbaker

When it comes to the Police, in North India, wether it be New Delhi, or Lucknow or Bihar, they are the scum of the earth. They are uneducated, corrupt B * * * * * *S, who will use what ever excuse they can to extract some money from you.

In your case they used a muslim name. In my case, my friends and I were coming from a 9-12 hindi movie, and were stopped by the police at the many check posts in New Delhi.

They then tried to ask us for money, saying that we looked like hoodlums. They threatened to take us to the `Thana` (police station). It was because we had no problems with it that, he realised that we were not going to bend to his whims and fancies, and he let us go.

Now I understand that when you have your wife and kids with you, you cannot afford to stand up to them. But I told you about this incident just let you know that it is not a hindu/muslim thing when it comes to the corrupt police. They will use, relgion (as in your case), age (in my case) and what ever else that they can think of, just to get their hands on some money.

While on the subject of Hindu/muslims in INdia, I personally have many workers in my business who are muslims, and I have the best of relations with them. One of our drivers is a muslim, (he has been in the family since I was a kid). We call him, bhai, out of respect. He has worked in a Hindu family for his whole life.

I studied in a catholic school in delhi. There is a cathedral, a gurudwara a mosque and a temple, within .5 km radius cirle. I remember when going through that area I would join hands at each and every one of them. My unlce used to tell me that they are all places of worship, and that we should respect all of them.

It was only when I grew up, and came to the US that I got in touch with another breed of muslims. These were the rigid, hard core type, who could not respect other people`s religon, just because it was not Islamic. As I got to know them better I realised that a lot of these people had been brought up in the Gulf and pakistan where they were taught that Hindus were filthy pigs and that they were below contempt. It was a stark contrast from the type of mulims that I knew in Delhi.

However, I used my sense of judgement, to not categorise all the muslims in the one boat. I realised that living in a completely singular community (all muslims) had closed their minds to the fact that poeple can live together, inspite of having different beliefs.

A lot of mulims livning in India, are bought up with Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. The schools they go to normally do not dole out religious teachings (normally... there might be exceptions). So they grow up with an open mind. they tend to keep religon personal (as it should be) and do not try to impose their views on others.

Anyway, that taught me that to generalise a whole group of people based on the negative experience you had with some of them is not correct. However, that remains my opinion, which might be different from yours. But that is OK.. as in India we are free to have whatever opinion we want to have. ;-)

AD

Studebaker:

With regard to the incident in the train. When I was about 15 years old, I was walking in Delhi towards the Republic Day parade. As I got closer to the parade, suddenly a policeman just pulled me by my collars and hurled me. There had been no provacation, words anything. He wanted me to take a different route and this was his way of telling me that. Bottom line, India`s insitutions and society are only half-developed. Many years ago, there was the case of Bhagalpur police in Bihar (or East UP, not sure) blinding prisoners by pouring acid in their eyes. The anti-Sikh riots are there for all to see. The question then becomes: how do we react to all this? Do we just get angry and turn our backs on Indian society or do we maintain our optimistic belief that we can improve things and reform ourselves. I think the reason why you find many of us arguing with you is that some of your statements are broadly anti-India and not limited to being anti the evils of India. If you can remain focussed on the evils and stop criticizing everything, you will find that I am on your side.

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