Falsehoods Galore
Fauziya Khan July 4, 1999
#60 Posted by Studebaker on July 21, 1999 5:17:02 pm
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#59 Posted by ad on July 21, 1999 2:03:45 pm
RE: Studebaker & Iconoclast
Guys you both are Indians and muslims, arguing from 2 different points of view.
Studebaker is trying to say that he has been procecuted, because he has a muslim name. Now I understand that in a secular country like India, that should not be the case. However, authorities all over the world use what is called Profiling. Studebaker, you mentioned that you had been checked at the airport. That means you had been travelling. In recent bomb blasts the trend has been that the terrorists come from out of town, do their dirty deeds and then get out. As a majority of them tend to be muslim, and have muslim names, I would understand why the authorities would err on the side of caution. I would only request you as a fellow Indian, and a Hindu to not take that incident to heart. ``A few rotten apples spoil the lot``. This is the essence of Profiling used at airports and public places all over the world. From Chicago where if they see a green (Pakistani) passport, they open the luggage (happened to my Pakistani friend), to Singapore (where they will not stop their cabs for Indians/Pakistanis/browns), becuase we tend to not give good tips.
So please do not feel hurt by that or other similiar incident, now or in the future. They are merely a method of catching the bad apples.
To Iconoclast, I will say that for all the supporting pro-india points you have given, thanks. It is very encouraging to hear such things from fellow Indians who are not Hindus. Another point that you could add, it the fact that muslims in india (for better or for worse)enjoy special rights (the Muslim Civil Law) that is not given in other secular countries like the USA or UK. While I do not agree with this, I feel that it can be used to counter any charges of pseudo-secularism in India. Even though this is ironical, that it the only effective means of combatting the likes of Imam Bukhari and others.
I hope and pray that muslims in general learn to be tolerant of other religons. My neighbours are muslims, (in a good locality in New Delhi). Every year, we get delecious biryani and meat on Eid and we send sweets to them during Diwali. They greet us with the customary greeting on our religious occassions just like we wish them well on theirs.
That is the kind of society that flourishes.
finally the main enemy of the muslims (and Hindus) in India is ignorance arising from uneducation. Nothing else, but education can change the state of the muslims that are going down. And no one will inspire the muslims to get a decent, mordern education, but themselves, just like all the other communities in India.
AD
Guys you both are Indians and muslims, arguing from 2 different points of view.
Studebaker is trying to say that he has been procecuted, because he has a muslim name. Now I understand that in a secular country like India, that should not be the case. However, authorities all over the world use what is called Profiling. Studebaker, you mentioned that you had been checked at the airport. That means you had been travelling. In recent bomb blasts the trend has been that the terrorists come from out of town, do their dirty deeds and then get out. As a majority of them tend to be muslim, and have muslim names, I would understand why the authorities would err on the side of caution. I would only request you as a fellow Indian, and a Hindu to not take that incident to heart. ``A few rotten apples spoil the lot``. This is the essence of Profiling used at airports and public places all over the world. From Chicago where if they see a green (Pakistani) passport, they open the luggage (happened to my Pakistani friend), to Singapore (where they will not stop their cabs for Indians/Pakistanis/browns), becuase we tend to not give good tips.
So please do not feel hurt by that or other similiar incident, now or in the future. They are merely a method of catching the bad apples.
To Iconoclast, I will say that for all the supporting pro-india points you have given, thanks. It is very encouraging to hear such things from fellow Indians who are not Hindus. Another point that you could add, it the fact that muslims in india (for better or for worse)enjoy special rights (the Muslim Civil Law) that is not given in other secular countries like the USA or UK. While I do not agree with this, I feel that it can be used to counter any charges of pseudo-secularism in India. Even though this is ironical, that it the only effective means of combatting the likes of Imam Bukhari and others.
I hope and pray that muslims in general learn to be tolerant of other religons. My neighbours are muslims, (in a good locality in New Delhi). Every year, we get delecious biryani and meat on Eid and we send sweets to them during Diwali. They greet us with the customary greeting on our religious occassions just like we wish them well on theirs.
That is the kind of society that flourishes.
finally the main enemy of the muslims (and Hindus) in India is ignorance arising from uneducation. Nothing else, but education can change the state of the muslims that are going down. And no one will inspire the muslims to get a decent, mordern education, but themselves, just like all the other communities in India.
AD
#58 Posted by iconoclast on July 21, 1999 7:31:56 am
Re: Studebaker:
`` there is killing in sri Lanka but constitutionally all non buddhist there have equal rights ``
-- Today, yes ...but not 10 years back. Tamils had educational quotas which made a Tamil with a higher score ineligible for admission when compared with a Sinhalese. In india, it is actually the other way around. The minorities have quotas which provide them an opportunity even when they have lower scores. India has an affirmative action as in the US, while the Kosovars or the Tamils in srilanka did not enjoy such privileges. There was mass genocide in these areas, which for ur reference has never occurred in India. What is happening in India is localised riots, as much as riots between shias and sunnis happen in Pakistan.
``I want a understanding Govt. ``
-- who does`nt
``which irrespective of its electoral not do what Muslims are made to demand,Babri issue,Shah Bano fiasco,Dilips medal from pakistan,``
-- yes , these are division strategies. But the main culprits here are the Muslim masses who succumb like lambs to these wolfs. As long as we stand united in our ideals and our goals, and let the religious fanatics in our midst at bay, Shah Bano would not have happened. Babri is a different story though....That i agree is a sin by the Hindu fanatics...but i know that most of my hindu classmates were ashamed by that. A friend of mine, a hindu female, actually cried in class the next day ... And i promise that those tears were real.....How many countries can proudly claim that ..?
``What any noble administration should do not so much to appease them like a kid but WHAT IT CERTAINLY KNOWS IS IN THERE LONGTERM INTERESTS &GOOD FOR THEM RATHER THAN SHORT TERM CANDIES TO GET OVER THE ELECTIONS! ``
-- the indian politicians do that with not only the Muslims, but with the christians, the backward classes, the scheduled tribes, the forward classes, and what not... for them it is only a question of votes. As the electorate, we must choose the best breed. People deserve the government they get.
``What i am trying to say there isnt any significant number of Muslims particularly in Tamil Nadu worth even a mention in discussion in the Nixus of political dynamics peri & post partition.``
-- overall we are probably only 5-8 percent. but in certain pockets we are pretty strong in number.
`` I never heard of communal riots southern than maharashtra region.It is the northern region where not only muslims even now (After Partition)remain . ``
-- we have occasional riots in tamil nadu (trichy, coimbatore) , kerala (all over) , karnataka (shimoga, belgaum, bangalore, mangalore), AP (hyderabad) ....even though it is a shame
`` I dont think any body in sane mind can say to muslims to leave voluntarily at the whims of cricket match,or peaceful,demonstration of grievences under democratic country.But what the majority has been succesfully doing is psychologically subjugeting to feel GUILTY,untruly about historical events.
``
-- the way u put across ur views about India, it is a little wonder that hindus and christians of India have their suspicion on us....
iconoclast
`` there is killing in sri Lanka but constitutionally all non buddhist there have equal rights ``
-- Today, yes ...but not 10 years back. Tamils had educational quotas which made a Tamil with a higher score ineligible for admission when compared with a Sinhalese. In india, it is actually the other way around. The minorities have quotas which provide them an opportunity even when they have lower scores. India has an affirmative action as in the US, while the Kosovars or the Tamils in srilanka did not enjoy such privileges. There was mass genocide in these areas, which for ur reference has never occurred in India. What is happening in India is localised riots, as much as riots between shias and sunnis happen in Pakistan.
``I want a understanding Govt. ``
-- who does`nt
``which irrespective of its electoral not do what Muslims are made to demand,Babri issue,Shah Bano fiasco,Dilips medal from pakistan,``
-- yes , these are division strategies. But the main culprits here are the Muslim masses who succumb like lambs to these wolfs. As long as we stand united in our ideals and our goals, and let the religious fanatics in our midst at bay, Shah Bano would not have happened. Babri is a different story though....That i agree is a sin by the Hindu fanatics...but i know that most of my hindu classmates were ashamed by that. A friend of mine, a hindu female, actually cried in class the next day ... And i promise that those tears were real.....How many countries can proudly claim that ..?
``What any noble administration should do not so much to appease them like a kid but WHAT IT CERTAINLY KNOWS IS IN THERE LONGTERM INTERESTS &GOOD FOR THEM RATHER THAN SHORT TERM CANDIES TO GET OVER THE ELECTIONS! ``
-- the indian politicians do that with not only the Muslims, but with the christians, the backward classes, the scheduled tribes, the forward classes, and what not... for them it is only a question of votes. As the electorate, we must choose the best breed. People deserve the government they get.
``What i am trying to say there isnt any significant number of Muslims particularly in Tamil Nadu worth even a mention in discussion in the Nixus of political dynamics peri & post partition.``
-- overall we are probably only 5-8 percent. but in certain pockets we are pretty strong in number.
`` I never heard of communal riots southern than maharashtra region.It is the northern region where not only muslims even now (After Partition)remain . ``
-- we have occasional riots in tamil nadu (trichy, coimbatore) , kerala (all over) , karnataka (shimoga, belgaum, bangalore, mangalore), AP (hyderabad) ....even though it is a shame
`` I dont think any body in sane mind can say to muslims to leave voluntarily at the whims of cricket match,or peaceful,demonstration of grievences under democratic country.But what the majority has been succesfully doing is psychologically subjugeting to feel GUILTY,untruly about historical events.
``
-- the way u put across ur views about India, it is a little wonder that hindus and christians of India have their suspicion on us....
iconoclast
#57 Posted by Studebaker on July 20, 1999 5:23:21 pm
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#56 Posted by Studebaker on July 20, 1999 5:23:21 pm
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#55 Posted by Maharaj on July 20, 1999 5:23:21 pm
RE. Iconaclast
You said ``He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost
Brahmin dominated). ``
What university is that?
You said ``He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost
Brahmin dominated). ``
What university is that?
#54 Posted by iconoclast on July 20, 1999 10:47:44 am
Re: Studebaker
`` I never doubt that Indian Muslims love India & in some extent more than a Hindu but it is like loving a ``Taken woman``. ``
-- Now u are being down right ridiculous. If this issue of a Taken woman is considered, then all of us Muslims should go back to Arabia. If India is a ``Taken woman`` for Indian Muslims, then is Pakistan ``an abducted wife of another man`` for the Pakistani Muslims. something like Should the Blacks stop loving America since it is a White country ? . You are being quite confused Studebaker.... India belongs to Indians.... and not to Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. If India is a Taken Woman for the Indian Muslims, then by the same token , it is a Taken woman for all Indians, since there is no single block of people who are a majority in India to claim this country. Even the Hindus are not united as a block. A tamil Hindu is much closer to a Tamil Muslim than to a Punjabi Hindu.......Look at it without your perverted glasses, will ya.
`` You may love it to death but it aint going to be yours ,``
-- It is already mine. As much as a Kashmiri would claim that Kashmir is his, or a Keralite would claim that Kerala is his. You don`t have to decide for me. If u hate India so be it... you can take the next flight to whereever you want to go...
``All your arguments do not prove a thing ``,
-- they do busybody... all u need to do is to look
`` can you attribute a rich muslims motive of staying in India as patriotism,nationalism& not pure simple economics ``
-- Even a rich Kosavar does not want to stay in Serbia... And now after the Nato action, even a rich Serbian does not want to stay in Kosova. During the Tamil issue in Srilanka, no Tamil rich or poor wanted to stay in SriLanka. The Same could apply for any place. BTW, the rich Indian Muslims could stay in a foreign country as rich as they are in India. Yet, they chose not to do so. Someone as intelligent like Abdul Kalam could have joined an american university and become an american citizen by now... but then he chooses to stay in India and creates the nuclear bomb and the Agni missiles. Now are u telling me that the RAW is forcing him. He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost Brahmin dominated).
`` or a poor muslims inability to do so & not choice, ``
-- precisely my point. Pray tell me, how in day to day life, Indian Muslims are caused Misery by the establishment or by the Hindus... instead of talking of annihilation in india, let us all know what is your view in concrete evidence, and i will counter your view point by point....
`` Blaming all mismanagement on poverty is just hiding the dirt under the carpet ``
-- i do not deny the dirt. We have hindu fundamentalism in our country as much as we have muslim or christian fundamentalism. The point is in India, the secular minded far out weigh the fundoos. The state does not practise religion, does not sanction religious segregation. Education, Jobs, administration are all based on equal opportunity. First we muslims are the ones to be blamed for our economic situation. How can u blame the government when you have been given the opportunity to do well ?
`` TEMPORARILY ,there is poverty in all countries including in USA,then whole civil rights movement could be brushed aside as ``povert ridden blacks problem``
``
-- No, just like the civil rights movements, we too need similar movements to protect us. not divide us further . like u propose......
``There are non muslims in Bangladesh & Tamilians in Sri Lanka & they will stay there always ,they have choice to leave but they choose to live ``
-- in SriLanka...yes and only today. Not Ten years back. In Bangladesh....I would beg to differ.
``How is your choice any better than theres!!!!``
-- no my choice is not any better than theirs. However theirs and mine are much better than yours. We are atleast not traitors to our own cause.
Iconoclast
`` I never doubt that Indian Muslims love India & in some extent more than a Hindu but it is like loving a ``Taken woman``. ``
-- Now u are being down right ridiculous. If this issue of a Taken woman is considered, then all of us Muslims should go back to Arabia. If India is a ``Taken woman`` for Indian Muslims, then is Pakistan ``an abducted wife of another man`` for the Pakistani Muslims. something like Should the Blacks stop loving America since it is a White country ? . You are being quite confused Studebaker.... India belongs to Indians.... and not to Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. If India is a Taken Woman for the Indian Muslims, then by the same token , it is a Taken woman for all Indians, since there is no single block of people who are a majority in India to claim this country. Even the Hindus are not united as a block. A tamil Hindu is much closer to a Tamil Muslim than to a Punjabi Hindu.......Look at it without your perverted glasses, will ya.
`` You may love it to death but it aint going to be yours ,``
-- It is already mine. As much as a Kashmiri would claim that Kashmir is his, or a Keralite would claim that Kerala is his. You don`t have to decide for me. If u hate India so be it... you can take the next flight to whereever you want to go...
``All your arguments do not prove a thing ``,
-- they do busybody... all u need to do is to look
`` can you attribute a rich muslims motive of staying in India as patriotism,nationalism& not pure simple economics ``
-- Even a rich Kosavar does not want to stay in Serbia... And now after the Nato action, even a rich Serbian does not want to stay in Kosova. During the Tamil issue in Srilanka, no Tamil rich or poor wanted to stay in SriLanka. The Same could apply for any place. BTW, the rich Indian Muslims could stay in a foreign country as rich as they are in India. Yet, they chose not to do so. Someone as intelligent like Abdul Kalam could have joined an american university and become an american citizen by now... but then he chooses to stay in India and creates the nuclear bomb and the Agni missiles. Now are u telling me that the RAW is forcing him. He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost Brahmin dominated).
`` or a poor muslims inability to do so & not choice, ``
-- precisely my point. Pray tell me, how in day to day life, Indian Muslims are caused Misery by the establishment or by the Hindus... instead of talking of annihilation in india, let us all know what is your view in concrete evidence, and i will counter your view point by point....
`` Blaming all mismanagement on poverty is just hiding the dirt under the carpet ``
-- i do not deny the dirt. We have hindu fundamentalism in our country as much as we have muslim or christian fundamentalism. The point is in India, the secular minded far out weigh the fundoos. The state does not practise religion, does not sanction religious segregation. Education, Jobs, administration are all based on equal opportunity. First we muslims are the ones to be blamed for our economic situation. How can u blame the government when you have been given the opportunity to do well ?
`` TEMPORARILY ,there is poverty in all countries including in USA,then whole civil rights movement could be brushed aside as ``povert ridden blacks problem``
``
-- No, just like the civil rights movements, we too need similar movements to protect us. not divide us further . like u propose......
``There are non muslims in Bangladesh & Tamilians in Sri Lanka & they will stay there always ,they have choice to leave but they choose to live ``
-- in SriLanka...yes and only today. Not Ten years back. In Bangladesh....I would beg to differ.
``How is your choice any better than theres!!!!``
-- no my choice is not any better than theirs. However theirs and mine are much better than yours. We are atleast not traitors to our own cause.
Iconoclast
#53 Posted by Kant_Patel on July 20, 1999 10:47:44 am
Re: Studebaker
For the pun of it: You are right, ``beggers can`t be choosers!`` But, the choosers have become beggers!! How ironic!!!
For the pun of it: You are right, ``beggers can`t be choosers!`` But, the choosers have become beggers!! How ironic!!!
#52 Posted by Maharaj on July 20, 1999 10:47:44 am
RE. Studebaker
You said `What is extra in India as a result of secularism that is
not in other democratic country like,sri Lanka,or Bangladesh etc.`
I cannot believe it. Sri Lanka is a Buddhist country. Tamil Hindus are getting butchered there. The `Buddhist Monks` wield huge power in national politics there. They whip up hatred against Tamil Hindus.
About Bangaldesh. Was it not a country that started off as a secular one under Mujibur Rehaman. Soon after they got rid of him, did not Bangaldesh call itself an Islamic Republic?
BTW, what should India do to be really `Secular` for you? All Hindus should become Muslims?
I do not believe or practice any religious ritual. For that matter looking at the way some `religious people` behave, I am not sure even if GOD exists. But still I call myself as a Hindu.
As a Muslim, what do you want Indian government to do? Give you special rights?. People should fawn over you and patronize you?
I have a white neighbor. All I want him to respect my individual and human rights and treat me fairly. I do not expect him to paint himself Black or Brown to please me.
You said `What is extra in India as a result of secularism that is
not in other democratic country like,sri Lanka,or Bangladesh etc.`
I cannot believe it. Sri Lanka is a Buddhist country. Tamil Hindus are getting butchered there. The `Buddhist Monks` wield huge power in national politics there. They whip up hatred against Tamil Hindus.
About Bangaldesh. Was it not a country that started off as a secular one under Mujibur Rehaman. Soon after they got rid of him, did not Bangaldesh call itself an Islamic Republic?
BTW, what should India do to be really `Secular` for you? All Hindus should become Muslims?
I do not believe or practice any religious ritual. For that matter looking at the way some `religious people` behave, I am not sure even if GOD exists. But still I call myself as a Hindu.
As a Muslim, what do you want Indian government to do? Give you special rights?. People should fawn over you and patronize you?
I have a white neighbor. All I want him to respect my individual and human rights and treat me fairly. I do not expect him to paint himself Black or Brown to please me.
#51 Posted by Studebaker on July 20, 1999 8:56:56 am
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#50 Posted by JR on July 19, 1999 3:38:24 pm
Re: Iconoclast
I have read your posts here and on other interacts and feel that you are the kind I would like to have on my team. Thanks Sir for your principled and educated positions on various topics. That you admitted to being Tamilian has earned you one more star in my books.
I have read your posts here and on other interacts and feel that you are the kind I would like to have on my team. Thanks Sir for your principled and educated positions on various topics. That you admitted to being Tamilian has earned you one more star in my books.
#49 Posted by iconoclast on July 19, 1999 2:17:23 pm
Re: Studebaker.
-- I know scores of Hindus who have been victimised in India too.. The point is that we have many a rich Hindu and a rich Muslim or a rich whatever in India living a comfortable life. and a secure one too. If India was anything other than secular, all the rich Muslims of India who do have an option to get out of this country would have done just that... like the hindus did in Pakistan or the Tamils did in Sri Lanka. The issue in India is poverty not religious fundamentalism as in Pakistan where it is both.
Indian secularism is not comparable to SriLanka or Bangladesh. Both do not have secularism,,, they both have national religions . You dim-wit.
It is people like u who give us a bad name.
And the reason we Indians (muslim or hindus or christians ) keep harping on secularism is because we need to keep our masses reminded off it (what with the fundamentalist neighbours we have). America does not face this ---do u dig that. ? Turncoats like u are more dangerous than Pakistanis. I would peg u right in the same league as a Hindu Shiv Shena or our local fundamenatalist Mullah.....
Iconoclast.
-- I know scores of Hindus who have been victimised in India too.. The point is that we have many a rich Hindu and a rich Muslim or a rich whatever in India living a comfortable life. and a secure one too. If India was anything other than secular, all the rich Muslims of India who do have an option to get out of this country would have done just that... like the hindus did in Pakistan or the Tamils did in Sri Lanka. The issue in India is poverty not religious fundamentalism as in Pakistan where it is both.
Indian secularism is not comparable to SriLanka or Bangladesh. Both do not have secularism,,, they both have national religions . You dim-wit.
It is people like u who give us a bad name.
And the reason we Indians (muslim or hindus or christians ) keep harping on secularism is because we need to keep our masses reminded off it (what with the fundamentalist neighbours we have). America does not face this ---do u dig that. ? Turncoats like u are more dangerous than Pakistanis. I would peg u right in the same league as a Hindu Shiv Shena or our local fundamenatalist Mullah.....
Iconoclast.
#48 Posted by Studebaker on July 19, 1999 10:36:37 am
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#47 Posted by Truth on July 16, 1999 4:18:40 pm
Iconoclast:
Thanks - I`m flattered to be quoted. There are so many Indians, including many with Muslim names and backgrounds, standing up for secularism and more specifically Indian secularism, warts and all, on this forum. I feel a fraternity with all such people. The point is not so much what India IS but what we want it to BE. That is India. Everything else is getting there.
Thanks - I`m flattered to be quoted. There are so many Indians, including many with Muslim names and backgrounds, standing up for secularism and more specifically Indian secularism, warts and all, on this forum. I feel a fraternity with all such people. The point is not so much what India IS but what we want it to BE. That is India. Everything else is getting there.
#46 Posted by fataquie on July 16, 1999 4:18:40 pm
Re: Najib
At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.
If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.
On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.
At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.
If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.
On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.
#45 Posted by UR on July 13, 1999 1:48:30 pm
Re Najib:
You need to keep one thing in mind, i.e. Kashmir never belonged to India (or to Pakistan, for that matter). It was occupied by both these countries. If I occupy your house against your will, does it belong to me? Even if I occupy it for 50 years, it still does not belong to me.
That is where Kashmir is different from any other region in India or Pakistan. As I mentioned earlier, I support the Kashmiris not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. I support them because their land has been occupied against their will, by a country that is more interested in the land, than it is in the people.
If the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side wanted independence from Pakistan, or wanted to join India, I would support them as well. But being half-Kashmiri myself, I know that the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side are quite content.
Its a very simple concept. I will explain it to you once again. Kashmir was occupied by force, against the will of its people. The people are are not happy with this situation. They are fighting for their independence, and are being killed. Pakistan is willing to give them the right to vote for their independence, India is not.
Please remember Kashmir is legally, morally, and ethically still disputed territory. So the Kashmiri freedom fighter can only be called atraitor, if he goes against the interests of Kashmir. Currently, he is going against the interests of India, and not against the interests of Kashmir. So he is not a traitor. India is trying to suppress the people in the hope that over time, the people will give up, and accept Indian rule. Unfortunately for India, this is not working out.
Civilized countries allow people to vote for their future. The example of Quebec in Canada is a good example (even though Quebec is not even a disputed territory).
If India is so sure that the average Kashmiri wants to be a part of India, then why not let the Kashmiris vote. This will solve the problem, once and for all. What is India afraid of?
You need to keep one thing in mind, i.e. Kashmir never belonged to India (or to Pakistan, for that matter). It was occupied by both these countries. If I occupy your house against your will, does it belong to me? Even if I occupy it for 50 years, it still does not belong to me.
That is where Kashmir is different from any other region in India or Pakistan. As I mentioned earlier, I support the Kashmiris not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. I support them because their land has been occupied against their will, by a country that is more interested in the land, than it is in the people.
If the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side wanted independence from Pakistan, or wanted to join India, I would support them as well. But being half-Kashmiri myself, I know that the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side are quite content.
Its a very simple concept. I will explain it to you once again. Kashmir was occupied by force, against the will of its people. The people are are not happy with this situation. They are fighting for their independence, and are being killed. Pakistan is willing to give them the right to vote for their independence, India is not.
Please remember Kashmir is legally, morally, and ethically still disputed territory. So the Kashmiri freedom fighter can only be called atraitor, if he goes against the interests of Kashmir. Currently, he is going against the interests of India, and not against the interests of Kashmir. So he is not a traitor. India is trying to suppress the people in the hope that over time, the people will give up, and accept Indian rule. Unfortunately for India, this is not working out.
Civilized countries allow people to vote for their future. The example of Quebec in Canada is a good example (even though Quebec is not even a disputed territory).
If India is so sure that the average Kashmiri wants to be a part of India, then why not let the Kashmiris vote. This will solve the problem, once and for all. What is India afraid of?
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