Falsehoods Galore

REF: Jawahara, you asked ``Getting a girl married off at 14 is a crime. Maharaj did anyone report that to the authorities?``

Well, India has to go a long way in terms of its citizens being aware and performing their civic duties.

Moreover, I was very young at that time. One thing I have to be honest about. There was always a fear about Muslims. A fear based on a prejuidice that Muslims are quick to get angry and become violent. A fear that any small confrontation could flare up into a riot. I was brought up to not to get in their way. They are to be left alone.

Regarding child marriages, I understand that they are common among some tribes in Rajasthan. They are not Muslims either.

For the reasons only the Chowk staff knows, my post submitted a week ago re this article did not get posted.

I`d like to know why.

Re: Ras Siddiqui Reply #: 45

``I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the reasons for the genesis of this article...``

Is truth a matter of origin/background of the speaker ? Do facts depend on `how you look` at them ? Something has obviously hurt you deeply.

`` ... we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.``

One can see your emotional feelings here. However you don`t seem to understand that Indians have an EQUAL feeling about Kashmir.

BTW, suppose Kashmir were to be annexed by Pakistan somehow. Which province of the present Pakistan would it look like, after say 10 years of Pakistani rule - Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan or Pakhtoonistan ?

This in response to Ras Siddiqui.

Mr Siddiqui, you have unnecessarily tried to say that Ms Khan thinks of Pakistanis as `lowly` people. She did not say anything to that effect in her article, and it is unfair for you to vent your anger over what certainly are some true facts about Pakistan (in the article).

You also referred to yourself as a person of `Pakistani` origin. That is wrong. All Pakistanis are of Indian origin. Like it or not, the whole landmass, which you now call `Pakistan`, is of Indian origin!

About Kashmir: You people have already taken away a large piece of land (Pakistan) from India and still want more (Kashmir)! How greedy can you be? The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural,lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken

against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its

future? These double-standards of Pakistan has convinced us and the world that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing human lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).

Let peace be everywhere, and let us work together for a better, safer future.

Ms. Khan, what an impartial and balanced article!
I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the
reasons for the genesis of this article which
at best lives up only to it`s title.
Talk about flame-baiting. I`ve recently read
similar work in just about every Indian publication there is.
On Indian Muslims, I for one welcome their retention of their ``Indianess``. All the best to
you guys, but win or lose or as this article states that for us lowly people of Pakistani origin ``lose or lose`` we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.
So please continue to support your Indian nirvana
but remember that our hell as this article seems
to project is and always will be for us (once again) lowly Pakistanis the object of our love.
So give Pakistanis credit that in spite of the Pakistani rulers, a people do exist that have
the talents to match any other on this planet, especially in the area of survival against great odds.

Ras

Maharaj brings up a valid point. Muslims in India, some despite being well off, keep perpetuating idiocies like skimping on education and marrying their daughters off under age. Getting a girl married off at 14 is a crime. Maharaj did anyone report that to the authorities?

Added to that we`ll listen to any bearded mullah to crawl out of the mohalla`s gutters. Before we can point fingers at anyone else, as Indian Muslims we need to put our own house in order.

This in response to what UR posted:

My friend, you have got it all wrong! What makes you think my views are similar to Milosevic`s? Indeed, as a Muslim, the last thing I would like to see is killing/massacres.

You contend that Kashmiris are not the ``same people`` as other Indians and that is why Pakistan wants Kashmir to secede from the Indian Union. Well, India is a diverse country with 32 states and territories, with more than 20 languages and scores of dialects, several religions, etc. In your opinion, all other states of India too should break away! Ridiculous! Indeed, that way, you are giving legitimacy to demands of Sindhudesh in Pakistan. Similarly, the Balochis, Mohajirs, Ahmadiyas etc too should take away a piece of Pakistan and form their own countries.

The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural, lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its future? I again insist that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing innocent lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).

It is also wrong to compare India`s freedom struggle agains the British to the TERRORISM IN KASHMIR. The British were outsiders (like the Moghuls) and a minority. They colonised us and exploited our resources, taking away our fundamental rights. In the case of Kashmir, the Kshmiris are Indians (like you and me; yes, you too are of Indian origin!) living in a diverse and SECULAR country, enjoying the same rights as the rest of their countrymen (and women).

You guys also have a distorted view about India`s internal situation, thinking that we are having dozens of `freedom struggles`. The Sikh problem is already over. There is no other major problem, except sporadic incidents in the state of Assam. My friend, you cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it can be for any country of such size and diversity to maintain 100% peace. Pakistan, which is 100% Muslim and much smaller, still faces the Sindhudesh, Mohajir, Balochi uprisal, etc. Try to understand the complexities, and you will learn to appreciate how well we Indians have managed ourselves.

Najib Qureshi

Iconaclaust

As a fellow Tamilian, please accept my best regards.

I would like to tell my experience with Muslims in general. My neighbor in the suburb of chennai is a Muslim. He owns a lot of businesses, including a grocery shop and a flour mill. He is the richest person in our neighborhood. None of his children even finished high school. In fact, he got his daughter married off when she was hardly 14. Now, can he blame Hindus if his children could not get jobs?

However, when I went away to college, I came across some Muslims both male and female who were outstanding students. I guess their families must have placed a premium on education.

BTW, being an Iconoclaust, what do you think about Periyar and his movement? Do you think he was a good influence? His atheist followers always attack Hinduism but do not dare to touch Muslims.

Ms. Khan

Where are you from? India or Pakistan?

Re: Fauziya Khan

Interesting observations. An excellent synposis of the situation confronting Pakistan, which made a whole lot of sense till the following lines:

``....the military and the clergy of Pakistan are busy sharpening their swords, behind the scenes, for the final assault on the United States, Western Europe and India....``

What could have been an excellent article merely turned out be another in a long series of sabre rattlings. I wish you had avoided the that line all together!

Najib:

Your views have a striking similarity with those of Milosevic.

Jinnah was the leader of the Muslim league. The Muslim league had elected representatives from the Muslim communities in India. In hindsight, Jinnah made the correct decision by forming Pakistan. The current Kashmir situation is a good example of what would have happened to Muslims had Pakistan not been created. Even now, the per capita income of a Pakistani Muslim is much higher than that of an Indian Muslim (or Hindu, for that matter).

The Kashmiris want independence from India, for the same reason the Indians wanted independence from the British. No one wants to be forced to live under another group of people. India seems only to be interested in the land of Kashmir, and not in the people.

The Kashmiris will eventually get their independence, just like the Indians and Pakistanis got their independence. It will be a long struggle, with a lot of innocent people getting killed, against an oppresive regime. It will require a lot of sacrificies, but it will happen. The Indian military can only kill innocent people for so long. Eventually, the people in the rest of the world will take notice.

Kashmiris need to be supported by Pakistanis not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. They should be supported because they are right. All religions, Hiduism, Islam, Christianity etc. preach that in the end right defeats wrong.

Ms. Khan,

`` Why does India not take any legal action againstt the likes of Bal Thakray who continue to spit venom against the minorities (read Muslims)?``

As others have said earlier, in India people have freedom (a bit too much) to shout their mouth off. This idiocy is not limited to Hindus alone. The happy imam of Delhi, Imam Bukhari had gone to Srinagar in 1988 and given a speech that would have him tried for sedition in any other country. Some maulana in U.P recently said that Muslims might face a conflict of interests in Kashmir since they are bound to assist a jehad. They should have locked him up too. And of course our commie pets always screech from behind the bars of their ideological cages whenever they can - since it`s the only thing left for them to do. I`d deal with them ASAP. But what to do? we are like this only..

Studebaker:

Iconoclast has the right idea. I`m an upper caste from the Deccan. I grew up in a system with 70% reservation. My generation (and every generation) had to slog it`s butt off to get into college and be someone. This holds for anyone, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Parsi. Seats to colleges are dependent on marks, not on religion. So stop cribbing that Muslims alone are somehow magically excluded from the system. Apparently none of the other Indian Muslims on this forum have suffered from the same affliction as you claim all Muslims do..Life in India is hard, buddy, for everyone..deal with it.

I`ve seen all kinds of statements from Lashkar and Harkat about how they want to liberate Kashmir, starting with Kargil. The problem is that the Balti Shias in Kargil have no desire to be ``liberated`` by these Pakhtun fundamentalists. There has been no insurgency worth the name in Kargil, people have no cribs with the GOI, and they are all very p * * * *ed with Pakistan right now for shelling them. I can refer articles if anyone wants. Makes the ``Mujaheds`` claim of ``liberating`` Kargil seem a bit hollow, dosen`t it?

I`ve also seen statements from Gen. Aslam Beg, I think, to the effect that Ladakh should be taken by Pakistan because the people are not Hindus!. Get a grip, people..I`m sure the Ladakh scouts will welcome you in. The Mujahedin and their backers seem to have mastered the art of making wild statements by the day.

Regarding the Kashmir problem.. the Kashmiris have a problem with being insular. This is a common charecterestic of most valley people in a lot of places, and the Kashmiris are no exception. Even Kashmiri Pundits have often been accused of being very insular even when they migrate elsewhere in India.

This insularity has contributed to the Kashmir problem immensely. Leaders like Sheikh Abdullah and Farooq who regarded the valley as their Jagir have not exactly enabled the integration of the valley with the rest of India. How does this matter? The oft repeated Kashmiri claim that they have been ill-treated by the Union because:

1) Indira annuled the elections of 1983

2) Appointed her own govt.

3) Farooq and Rajiv came together and rigged 1987

and that`s they took to arms is a illogical explanation. Similiar dirty politics have been played in every state in the union. In AP Rama Rao`s govt. was dismissed by Indira with no cause. The people did not slip over to Sri Lanka, load up with Aks and come back to kill (and there are a lot of Muslims in AP too. I didn`t seem them yelling ``Azadi`` and burning houses). They took part in the next election, trounced Indira and brought Rama Rao back. This is the way the system works, people. The problem is when certain people think they deserve extra special treatment (kind of like you, Studebaker) and don`t get it, they run around doing themselves and everyone else a lot of damage. So, Kashmir is not all about a religious problem, despite what people might think.

re: Iconoclast

Hear Hear !!
....And you do, do a good job of smashing the Indian Hindu idol/image in some Muslim minds and the Indian Muslim idol/image in some Hindu minds. :-)

Re: Fauziya Khan Reply #: 29

`` Why does India not take any legal action againstt the likes of Bal Thakray who continue to spit venom against the minorities (read Muslims)?``

India is a democracy - and there is the right of speech. However, hardly anyone pays attention to Mr. Bal Thakray. Pakistan`s recent actions only give credence to the likes of him, does it not.

``What about the scenario when Pakistan, with its back to the wall, fires a few Nuclear missiles at India and manages to kill say a couple of hundred thousand Indians (Hindus???) ? I am pretty certaint that India would, even then, not exercise its nuclear option.``

Wow ! Where did you get that from ?

Pakistan is generally regarded in India as a ``buzzing nuisance`` (Pritish Nandy). Not an enemy worthy of full and complete attention. However, if pakistan were to commit the first sin, this would change dramatically. The kid-gloves would be off and pakistan would be well on its way to becoming an ashtray, make no mistake on that.

Let me begin by congratulating Ms Khan for such a balanced, thoughtful, and absorbing article. I enjoyed reading it.

I have also noticed that this article has generated a very healthy debate, with people coming up with all kinds of arguments and counter-arguments. I don`t know if that yields anything, but as an Indian, I like free flow of thoughts and expression.

Many say that the Kashmiris should have the right to self-determination. Well, why? Did the rest of Indians have the same rights (in 1947)? Why wasn`t a referendum held in 1947 to decide whether the Indian people wanted partition? If a referendum had been held, the Indian masses would have rejected the idea of partition. But the British, Nehru, Jinnah, etc (all non-elected people, with no mandate to represent Indians) went ahead and wrongly partitioned the country.

Anyway, what can we do at this time? Well, what do people do when they no longer want to live in their usual place of birth or residence? Of course, they emigrate. They go to UK, US, etc. Similarly, if Kashmiris (or ANYONE from India, for that matter) do not want to live in India, they are free to go to Pakistan or anywhere else. Will Pakistan accept that? Perhaps not. You see, the Pakis are NOT interested in the well-being of the Kashmiris. They just want the land and also want to score a point with the Indians. The people of India are determined not to let that happen. And, Inshallah, India will emerge as the victor in the current and future imbroglios.