Falsehoods Galore
Fauziya Khan July 4, 1999
#33 Posted by rudra0 on July 7, 1999 12:59:27 pm
Ms. Khan,
`` Why does India not take any legal action againstt the likes of Bal Thakray who continue to spit venom against the minorities (read Muslims)?``
As others have said earlier, in India people have freedom (a bit too much) to shout their mouth off. This idiocy is not limited to Hindus alone. The happy imam of Delhi, Imam Bukhari had gone to Srinagar in 1988 and given a speech that would have him tried for sedition in any other country. Some maulana in U.P recently said that Muslims might face a conflict of interests in Kashmir since they are bound to assist a jehad. They should have locked him up too. And of course our commie pets always screech from behind the bars of their ideological cages whenever they can - since it`s the only thing left for them to do. I`d deal with them ASAP. But what to do? we are like this only..
`` Why does India not take any legal action againstt the likes of Bal Thakray who continue to spit venom against the minorities (read Muslims)?``
As others have said earlier, in India people have freedom (a bit too much) to shout their mouth off. This idiocy is not limited to Hindus alone. The happy imam of Delhi, Imam Bukhari had gone to Srinagar in 1988 and given a speech that would have him tried for sedition in any other country. Some maulana in U.P recently said that Muslims might face a conflict of interests in Kashmir since they are bound to assist a jehad. They should have locked him up too. And of course our commie pets always screech from behind the bars of their ideological cages whenever they can - since it`s the only thing left for them to do. I`d deal with them ASAP. But what to do? we are like this only..
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#34 Posted by UR on July 7, 1999 12:59:27 pm
Najib:
Your views have a striking similarity with those of Milosevic.
Jinnah was the leader of the Muslim league. The Muslim league had elected representatives from the Muslim communities in India. In hindsight, Jinnah made the correct decision by forming Pakistan. The current Kashmir situation is a good example of what would have happened to Muslims had Pakistan not been created. Even now, the per capita income of a Pakistani Muslim is much higher than that of an Indian Muslim (or Hindu, for that matter).
The Kashmiris want independence from India, for the same reason the Indians wanted independence from the British. No one wants to be forced to live under another group of people. India seems only to be interested in the land of Kashmir, and not in the people.
The Kashmiris will eventually get their independence, just like the Indians and Pakistanis got their independence. It will be a long struggle, with a lot of innocent people getting killed, against an oppresive regime. It will require a lot of sacrificies, but it will happen. The Indian military can only kill innocent people for so long. Eventually, the people in the rest of the world will take notice.
Kashmiris need to be supported by Pakistanis not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. They should be supported because they are right. All religions, Hiduism, Islam, Christianity etc. preach that in the end right defeats wrong.
Your views have a striking similarity with those of Milosevic.
Jinnah was the leader of the Muslim league. The Muslim league had elected representatives from the Muslim communities in India. In hindsight, Jinnah made the correct decision by forming Pakistan. The current Kashmir situation is a good example of what would have happened to Muslims had Pakistan not been created. Even now, the per capita income of a Pakistani Muslim is much higher than that of an Indian Muslim (or Hindu, for that matter).
The Kashmiris want independence from India, for the same reason the Indians wanted independence from the British. No one wants to be forced to live under another group of people. India seems only to be interested in the land of Kashmir, and not in the people.
The Kashmiris will eventually get their independence, just like the Indians and Pakistanis got their independence. It will be a long struggle, with a lot of innocent people getting killed, against an oppresive regime. It will require a lot of sacrificies, but it will happen. The Indian military can only kill innocent people for so long. Eventually, the people in the rest of the world will take notice.
Kashmiris need to be supported by Pakistanis not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. They should be supported because they are right. All religions, Hiduism, Islam, Christianity etc. preach that in the end right defeats wrong.
#35 Posted by ferozk on July 7, 1999 4:43:21 pm
Re: Fauziya Khan
Interesting observations. An excellent synposis of the situation confronting Pakistan, which made a whole lot of sense till the following lines:
``....the military and the clergy of Pakistan are busy sharpening their swords, behind the scenes, for the final assault on the United States, Western Europe and India....``
What could have been an excellent article merely turned out be another in a long series of sabre rattlings. I wish you had avoided the that line all together!
Interesting observations. An excellent synposis of the situation confronting Pakistan, which made a whole lot of sense till the following lines:
``....the military and the clergy of Pakistan are busy sharpening their swords, behind the scenes, for the final assault on the United States, Western Europe and India....``
What could have been an excellent article merely turned out be another in a long series of sabre rattlings. I wish you had avoided the that line all together!
#37 Posted by Maharaj on July 7, 1999 5:32:00 pm
Iconaclaust
As a fellow Tamilian, please accept my best regards.
I would like to tell my experience with Muslims in general. My neighbor in the suburb of chennai is a Muslim. He owns a lot of businesses, including a grocery shop and a flour mill. He is the richest person in our neighborhood. None of his children even finished high school. In fact, he got his daughter married off when she was hardly 14. Now, can he blame Hindus if his children could not get jobs?
However, when I went away to college, I came across some Muslims both male and female who were outstanding students. I guess their families must have placed a premium on education.
BTW, being an Iconoclaust, what do you think about Periyar and his movement? Do you think he was a good influence? His atheist followers always attack Hinduism but do not dare to touch Muslims.
As a fellow Tamilian, please accept my best regards.
I would like to tell my experience with Muslims in general. My neighbor in the suburb of chennai is a Muslim. He owns a lot of businesses, including a grocery shop and a flour mill. He is the richest person in our neighborhood. None of his children even finished high school. In fact, he got his daughter married off when she was hardly 14. Now, can he blame Hindus if his children could not get jobs?
However, when I went away to college, I came across some Muslims both male and female who were outstanding students. I guess their families must have placed a premium on education.
BTW, being an Iconoclaust, what do you think about Periyar and his movement? Do you think he was a good influence? His atheist followers always attack Hinduism but do not dare to touch Muslims.
#38 Posted by Najib on July 8, 1999 11:50:55 am
This in response to what UR posted:
My friend, you have got it all wrong! What makes you think my views are similar to Milosevic`s? Indeed, as a Muslim, the last thing I would like to see is killing/massacres.
You contend that Kashmiris are not the ``same people`` as other Indians and that is why Pakistan wants Kashmir to secede from the Indian Union. Well, India is a diverse country with 32 states and territories, with more than 20 languages and scores of dialects, several religions, etc. In your opinion, all other states of India too should break away! Ridiculous! Indeed, that way, you are giving legitimacy to demands of Sindhudesh in Pakistan. Similarly, the Balochis, Mohajirs, Ahmadiyas etc too should take away a piece of Pakistan and form their own countries.
The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural, lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its future? I again insist that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing innocent lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).
It is also wrong to compare India`s freedom struggle agains the British to the TERRORISM IN KASHMIR. The British were outsiders (like the Moghuls) and a minority. They colonised us and exploited our resources, taking away our fundamental rights. In the case of Kashmir, the Kshmiris are Indians (like you and me; yes, you too are of Indian origin!) living in a diverse and SECULAR country, enjoying the same rights as the rest of their countrymen (and women).
You guys also have a distorted view about India`s internal situation, thinking that we are having dozens of `freedom struggles`. The Sikh problem is already over. There is no other major problem, except sporadic incidents in the state of Assam. My friend, you cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it can be for any country of such size and diversity to maintain 100% peace. Pakistan, which is 100% Muslim and much smaller, still faces the Sindhudesh, Mohajir, Balochi uprisal, etc. Try to understand the complexities, and you will learn to appreciate how well we Indians have managed ourselves.
Najib Qureshi
My friend, you have got it all wrong! What makes you think my views are similar to Milosevic`s? Indeed, as a Muslim, the last thing I would like to see is killing/massacres.
You contend that Kashmiris are not the ``same people`` as other Indians and that is why Pakistan wants Kashmir to secede from the Indian Union. Well, India is a diverse country with 32 states and territories, with more than 20 languages and scores of dialects, several religions, etc. In your opinion, all other states of India too should break away! Ridiculous! Indeed, that way, you are giving legitimacy to demands of Sindhudesh in Pakistan. Similarly, the Balochis, Mohajirs, Ahmadiyas etc too should take away a piece of Pakistan and form their own countries.
The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural, lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its future? I again insist that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing innocent lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).
It is also wrong to compare India`s freedom struggle agains the British to the TERRORISM IN KASHMIR. The British were outsiders (like the Moghuls) and a minority. They colonised us and exploited our resources, taking away our fundamental rights. In the case of Kashmir, the Kshmiris are Indians (like you and me; yes, you too are of Indian origin!) living in a diverse and SECULAR country, enjoying the same rights as the rest of their countrymen (and women).
You guys also have a distorted view about India`s internal situation, thinking that we are having dozens of `freedom struggles`. The Sikh problem is already over. There is no other major problem, except sporadic incidents in the state of Assam. My friend, you cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it can be for any country of such size and diversity to maintain 100% peace. Pakistan, which is 100% Muslim and much smaller, still faces the Sindhudesh, Mohajir, Balochi uprisal, etc. Try to understand the complexities, and you will learn to appreciate how well we Indians have managed ourselves.
Najib Qureshi
#39 Posted by jawahara on July 8, 1999 11:50:55 am
Maharaj brings up a valid point. Muslims in India, some despite being well off, keep perpetuating idiocies like skimping on education and marrying their daughters off under age. Getting a girl married off at 14 is a crime. Maharaj did anyone report that to the authorities?
Added to that we`ll listen to any bearded mullah to crawl out of the mohalla`s gutters. Before we can point fingers at anyone else, as Indian Muslims we need to put our own house in order.
Added to that we`ll listen to any bearded mullah to crawl out of the mohalla`s gutters. Before we can point fingers at anyone else, as Indian Muslims we need to put our own house in order.
#40 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on July 10, 1999 12:00:11 am
Ms. Khan, what an impartial and balanced article!
I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the
reasons for the genesis of this article which
at best lives up only to it`s title.
Talk about flame-baiting. I`ve recently read
similar work in just about every Indian publication there is.
On Indian Muslims, I for one welcome their retention of their ``Indianess``. All the best to
you guys, but win or lose or as this article states that for us lowly people of Pakistani origin ``lose or lose`` we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.
So please continue to support your Indian nirvana
but remember that our hell as this article seems
to project is and always will be for us (once again) lowly Pakistanis the object of our love.
So give Pakistanis credit that in spite of the Pakistani rulers, a people do exist that have
the talents to match any other on this planet, especially in the area of survival against great odds.
Ras
#41 Posted by Najib on July 10, 1999 9:03:22 am
This in response to Ras Siddiqui.
Mr Siddiqui, you have unnecessarily tried to say that Ms Khan thinks of Pakistanis as `lowly` people. She did not say anything to that effect in her article, and it is unfair for you to vent your anger over what certainly are some true facts about Pakistan (in the article).
You also referred to yourself as a person of `Pakistani` origin. That is wrong. All Pakistanis are of Indian origin. Like it or not, the whole landmass, which you now call `Pakistan`, is of Indian origin!
About Kashmir: You people have already taken away a large piece of land (Pakistan) from India and still want more (Kashmir)! How greedy can you be? The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural,lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken
against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its
future? These double-standards of Pakistan has convinced us and the world that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing human lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).
Let peace be everywhere, and let us work together for a better, safer future.
Mr Siddiqui, you have unnecessarily tried to say that Ms Khan thinks of Pakistanis as `lowly` people. She did not say anything to that effect in her article, and it is unfair for you to vent your anger over what certainly are some true facts about Pakistan (in the article).
You also referred to yourself as a person of `Pakistani` origin. That is wrong. All Pakistanis are of Indian origin. Like it or not, the whole landmass, which you now call `Pakistan`, is of Indian origin!
About Kashmir: You people have already taken away a large piece of land (Pakistan) from India and still want more (Kashmir)! How greedy can you be? The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural,lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken
against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its
future? These double-standards of Pakistan has convinced us and the world that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing human lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).
Let peace be everywhere, and let us work together for a better, safer future.
#42 Posted by anarayan on July 10, 1999 9:03:22 am
Re: Ras Siddiqui Reply #: 45
``I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the reasons for the genesis of this article...``
Is truth a matter of origin/background of the speaker ? Do facts depend on `how you look` at them ? Something has obviously hurt you deeply.
`` ... we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.``
One can see your emotional feelings here. However you don`t seem to understand that Indians have an EQUAL feeling about Kashmir.
BTW, suppose Kashmir were to be annexed by Pakistan somehow. Which province of the present Pakistan would it look like, after say 10 years of Pakistani rule - Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan or Pakhtoonistan ?
``I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the reasons for the genesis of this article...``
Is truth a matter of origin/background of the speaker ? Do facts depend on `how you look` at them ? Something has obviously hurt you deeply.
`` ... we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.``
One can see your emotional feelings here. However you don`t seem to understand that Indians have an EQUAL feeling about Kashmir.
BTW, suppose Kashmir were to be annexed by Pakistan somehow. Which province of the present Pakistan would it look like, after say 10 years of Pakistani rule - Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan or Pakhtoonistan ?
#43 Posted by Godot on July 10, 1999 2:35:01 pm
For the reasons only the Chowk staff knows, my post submitted a week ago re this article did not get posted.
I`d like to know why.
I`d like to know why.
#44 Posted by Maharaj on July 13, 1999 12:03:38 am
REF: Jawahara, you asked ``Getting a girl married off at 14 is a crime. Maharaj did anyone report that to the authorities?``
Well, India has to go a long way in terms of its citizens being aware and performing their civic duties.
Moreover, I was very young at that time. One thing I have to be honest about. There was always a fear about Muslims. A fear based on a prejuidice that Muslims are quick to get angry and become violent. A fear that any small confrontation could flare up into a riot. I was brought up to not to get in their way. They are to be left alone.
Regarding child marriages, I understand that they are common among some tribes in Rajasthan. They are not Muslims either.
Well, India has to go a long way in terms of its citizens being aware and performing their civic duties.
Moreover, I was very young at that time. One thing I have to be honest about. There was always a fear about Muslims. A fear based on a prejuidice that Muslims are quick to get angry and become violent. A fear that any small confrontation could flare up into a riot. I was brought up to not to get in their way. They are to be left alone.
Regarding child marriages, I understand that they are common among some tribes in Rajasthan. They are not Muslims either.
#45 Posted by UR on July 13, 1999 1:48:30 pm
Re Najib:
You need to keep one thing in mind, i.e. Kashmir never belonged to India (or to Pakistan, for that matter). It was occupied by both these countries. If I occupy your house against your will, does it belong to me? Even if I occupy it for 50 years, it still does not belong to me.
That is where Kashmir is different from any other region in India or Pakistan. As I mentioned earlier, I support the Kashmiris not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. I support them because their land has been occupied against their will, by a country that is more interested in the land, than it is in the people.
If the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side wanted independence from Pakistan, or wanted to join India, I would support them as well. But being half-Kashmiri myself, I know that the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side are quite content.
Its a very simple concept. I will explain it to you once again. Kashmir was occupied by force, against the will of its people. The people are are not happy with this situation. They are fighting for their independence, and are being killed. Pakistan is willing to give them the right to vote for their independence, India is not.
Please remember Kashmir is legally, morally, and ethically still disputed territory. So the Kashmiri freedom fighter can only be called atraitor, if he goes against the interests of Kashmir. Currently, he is going against the interests of India, and not against the interests of Kashmir. So he is not a traitor. India is trying to suppress the people in the hope that over time, the people will give up, and accept Indian rule. Unfortunately for India, this is not working out.
Civilized countries allow people to vote for their future. The example of Quebec in Canada is a good example (even though Quebec is not even a disputed territory).
If India is so sure that the average Kashmiri wants to be a part of India, then why not let the Kashmiris vote. This will solve the problem, once and for all. What is India afraid of?
You need to keep one thing in mind, i.e. Kashmir never belonged to India (or to Pakistan, for that matter). It was occupied by both these countries. If I occupy your house against your will, does it belong to me? Even if I occupy it for 50 years, it still does not belong to me.
That is where Kashmir is different from any other region in India or Pakistan. As I mentioned earlier, I support the Kashmiris not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. I support them because their land has been occupied against their will, by a country that is more interested in the land, than it is in the people.
If the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side wanted independence from Pakistan, or wanted to join India, I would support them as well. But being half-Kashmiri myself, I know that the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side are quite content.
Its a very simple concept. I will explain it to you once again. Kashmir was occupied by force, against the will of its people. The people are are not happy with this situation. They are fighting for their independence, and are being killed. Pakistan is willing to give them the right to vote for their independence, India is not.
Please remember Kashmir is legally, morally, and ethically still disputed territory. So the Kashmiri freedom fighter can only be called atraitor, if he goes against the interests of Kashmir. Currently, he is going against the interests of India, and not against the interests of Kashmir. So he is not a traitor. India is trying to suppress the people in the hope that over time, the people will give up, and accept Indian rule. Unfortunately for India, this is not working out.
Civilized countries allow people to vote for their future. The example of Quebec in Canada is a good example (even though Quebec is not even a disputed territory).
If India is so sure that the average Kashmiri wants to be a part of India, then why not let the Kashmiris vote. This will solve the problem, once and for all. What is India afraid of?
#46 Posted by fataquie on July 16, 1999 4:18:40 pm
Re: Najib
At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.
If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.
On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.
At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.
If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.
On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.
#47 Posted by Truth on July 16, 1999 4:18:40 pm
Iconoclast:
Thanks - I`m flattered to be quoted. There are so many Indians, including many with Muslim names and backgrounds, standing up for secularism and more specifically Indian secularism, warts and all, on this forum. I feel a fraternity with all such people. The point is not so much what India IS but what we want it to BE. That is India. Everything else is getting there.
Thanks - I`m flattered to be quoted. There are so many Indians, including many with Muslim names and backgrounds, standing up for secularism and more specifically Indian secularism, warts and all, on this forum. I feel a fraternity with all such people. The point is not so much what India IS but what we want it to BE. That is India. Everything else is getting there.
#48 Posted by Studebaker on July 19, 1999 10:36:37 am
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