Falsehoods Galore

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O.K. now that we have got Pakistan and we are sooooo ashamed of it,what do we do with it?

I am afraid it doesn`t fit my dust bin and i CAN`T SEE IT going into India`s hands....maybe we can throw it away into the Indian Ocean..since everything Indian is sooooo great....atleast it would sink into something having an Indian connotation.....or maybe we can sell it and give all the cash to u....

and yes,I dont mind being opressed by whatever irks u....but I would rather die than be ruled over by anybody else...yes BJP I mean!!!

I heard someone was selling freedom!!!

Who said, give me liberty or give me death. If only you had been born in a muslim family in INDIA, would you have known what ``freedom``, ``pakistan`` and ``jinnah`` are.

Nice article as far as compilation of facts in Pakistan history is concerned. But I take STRONG exception to theories put forth by the author in analyzing these facts. Its an article written in rage, which is surprising as normally at chowk I find articles written with an analytical mind. Author has backed up the facts with absurd theories. I won` comment on all of them, but some of them are pretty absurd. For example, during Pakistan Movement, the worst opposition that the movement faced was not from Congress or British, but from the Muslim Clergy of Sub Continent so much so that fatwas and titles like Kaafir-e-Azam were given to Quaid. Prominent leaders like Maulana Madoodi were pretty vocal against the idea of Pakistan. All prominent Islamic schools of that time were against the idea of Pakistan. In short Quaid was not the fall guy, he did it all on his own with out any help from the clergy. Feudals in Punjab did supporte him. Yes for the reason given by author, i.e. to prevent their land holdings from the rule of Congress. I feel the same reason governed their aversion towards rule by East Pakistanis to prevent any land dissolution, ultimately resulting in separation of the country. Arguing whether India or Pakistan started arms race in Sub continent is absurd with out considering the global context. Fact is that India initiated it for concerns from China and Pakistan followed suit. It is useless if we indulge in this debate and start blaming each other. It was an eventuality, which was to happen in the world as a result of non-eradication of nuclear weapons by the super powers. But if author does wish to indulge in it and ascertain as to who initiated the race with in South Asia, than I guess the answer is pretty obvious.

Re: rbian Reply #: 3

`` Who said, give me liberty or give me death. If only you had been born in a muslim family in INDIA, would you have known what ``freedom``, ``pakistan`` and ``jinnah`` are.``

I quite agree with you.

Let us point out some of the terrible options facing Ms. Khan were she born in a muslim family in India.

Perhaps then Ms. Khan may have become a Space Scientist like Abdul Kalam, father of the Indian Space and Missile program or perhaps a world famous music director like A.R. Rehman or perhaps she may have captained the Indian Cricket team (female) like Muhammed Azharuddin or perhaps she may have become a honoured sitar virtuosso like Amjad Ali Khan or a shehnai virtuosso like Bismilla Khan or a tabla virtuosso like Zakir Hussain or perhaps she could have become a famous movie star like Nargis, MadhuBala, ShahRukh or Salmaan or she may have enchanted millions with her voice, like a Muhammed Rafi.

She may have joined the military and earned a pakistani bullet like my junior school-mate Cpt. Hanifuddin.

She may have started a computer company like WIPRO and become the richest Indian in the world like (I forget his name),by sheer hard work.

Why, she may even have become the president of India like Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed.

Why all this when she can be a burqa-clad housewife in a Talibanic society.

On the verge of 52 years since Independence. And in which direction has Pakistan gone but South. This is not the Pakistan envisioned by its founding parents. And I see little hope when so many of the educated, wordly Pakistanis (the potential saviors) flock to the West abandoning Pakistan because they see little hope.

A well-written, passionate, and sobering article. Good work, Fauziya. A bittersweet congratulations.

-!Kamran!-

``The national political leadership has

embarked on a path to further Islamize the country by the imposition of the Sharia -- a

fact that is not liked by a majority of the population``

Correction: not liked by the majority of the westernized social upper-class who like to disparage their surroundings and fellow lower-class (caste?) country-men, and like to pander to western perceptions of the world. Most Pakistani`s simply think it`s odd: how do you Islamize the Islamic republic? People smell a rat...

``Pakistan`s Islamic constituency has now begun to sponsor more than just the ``jihad`` in Kashmir. It has been found to have close links with worldwide terrorist organizations that are united in their hatred of free societies``

What nonsense. The so-called ``free-societies`` are the ones that are avidly and rabidly fearful and hateful towards even the most mild Islamist movement. Islamist movements are invariably non-expansionist and involve themselves with foreign govenrments only when they perceive interference from them. Thus, America is hated because of it`s support for Israel, Britain hated because it`s credited with dismembering the muslim world, etc. Not because there`s this overwhealming desire to conquer the U.K. or America.

For the most part, the hatred is well justified, and hence shared by many Pakistani`s, even the more modereate and yes, even some secular ones.

And yes, the terrorism is justified too, because it works and because the west is not above using the very same tactics either covertly or under the guise of military operations.

I`m no fan of such movements, but if you`re gonna try and write on this issue at least be fair and don`t take such a one-sided view.

``The, the military and the clergy of Pakistan are busy sharpening

their swords, behind the scenes, for the final assault on the United States, Western

Europe and India -- all demonstrably free societies. ``

What the heck are you talking about? This sounds like the paranoid ramblings of a lunatic. You may as well be yelling ``the martians are comming!``.

As I`ve said, the hatred of everything western is due to the Western tradition of medelling in forigen affairs for their own interests. As a result, the regional polity created is not one favourable to the populous that is affected by Western policy. As a result, you have backlash.

However, the goals of the militants in Kashmir is fairly a popular one.

On the whole, the notion of Kashmiri independence or union with Pakistan (more so the former than the latter is a popular one in occupied Kashmir (i.e. Kashmir in it`s entirty). The conflict needs a political solution, and quite frankly playing the Islamic boogy man clause is a bit childesh. It may appease Western pseudo-intellects, but on the whole your analysis leaves much to be desired.

The fact of the matter is, the Kashmiri conflict is real. It`s not a creation of Pakistan`s ISI.

The conlfict needs a resolution, and India can easily resolve the conlfict by holding ``free`` elections. After all, you yourself have described India as a ``deomstrably free`` society, so is it asking too much for it to behave like one?

If India behaved like Canada in her problems with Quebec, then Pakistan would have the wrath of the international community on it for trying to make a big issue out of something that could be resolved internally. However, India`s brain-dead policy is making things difficult for the people of Kashmir. For the most part, Pakistan is on the moral high ground over this particular issue.

Re : rbian

`` If only you had been born in a muslim family in INDIA, would you have known what ``freedom``, ``pakistan`` and ``jinnah`` are. ``

-- I am a Muslim born in a ``muslim family in INDIA``. I know what is freedom. I also know what is Pakistan and i have a fair idea of jinnah. Both have not impressed me much. Earlier i have listed so many muslim achievements in India. The latest...the world`s richest Indian is also a Muslim ``Azim Premji`` and he achieved all this by himself. Just a pointer that a Muslim in India probably can do better than a Muslim in Pakistan. We are lucky. We enjoy being Muslims within a secular democratic setup and can keep the fundamentalists from our religion at bay.

Iconoclast

Hear, hear Iconoclast. As an Indian Muslim myself, I cannot think of myself without the ``Indian.`` My Indianness is intrinsically linked to me, and no other country (despite its many and well documented problems) could have given me so much as the country of my birth. Just had to say that I think.

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you might be right or wrong, but i would rather die, than to live in india or be some other national other than pakistani.

have fun

Re : VY

I`l be with you .. Pakistan is the best .. A great opinion from you after all these ABCD`s ..

A great article, it will go well with this beauty from a pak newspaper.

Why Nawaz-Clinton meeting was held in haste

By Azim M Mian

NEW YORK: The haste in which Nawaz-Clinton meeting took place in Washington, is being explained by some US sources that India had planned a major military offensive against diplomatically ``isolated`` Pakistan.

According to these credible sources, the US warned India to desist from any such offensive and allow 72 hours to the US to work out any solution to the problem.

The US had also warned India that if any such Indian offensive is launched against Pakistan, the US will take punitive measures against India since Pakistan is considered as an old ally of the United States.

The US Administration at the highest level had also asked India to inform Washington at least 48 hours if and when India plans any such attack, these sources insist.

This situation is the reason the US President spent three hours of his time on a national holiday and personally supervised the drafting of 18-line ``Pak-US statement`` on July 4, these sources say. ``This joint

statement`` has averted the full-scale war between India and Pakistan, the US sources claimed. Clinton-Nawaz meeting was set up by those Pakistani and American friends, who had the privileged information about the Indian plans to attack Pakistan and wanted to avert it at any cost, they said.

The statement is a mixed bag of carrots and sticks. Pakistan has averted the war, after India has spent billions of its resources on mobilisation and deployment of its army on the borders. But Pakistan has also taken the responsibility of withdrawal of Mujahideen from Kargil and Drass. Now this is a commitment to the US made by Pakistan, it will have to

happen, while the Nawaz government will have to bear its brunt at the domestic front.

When a US official was asked about the US understanding of the wordings of the statement concerning the Line of Control as per the Simla Agreement, he agreed that the statement is clearly recognising the fact that any alteration of the Line of Control in the post-Simla period is not recognised. India has occupied certain areas by altering LoC through the use of military force after the Simla Agreement was signed.

re:remax & vy

Count me in too.....!!!!

Long live Pakistan!

And down with all those who just know how to degrade it and try to deny it!

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re: StudeBaker
Your religious biases knows no bounds.

You say, ``If you give individual Premji s example please note combined values of each of the Familys of tata,Birla,dalmia,are in billion dollars but they divide it among there 100 sons grand & grand grand sons & daughters as is common among joint family tradition of Hindu bania.``

So even the family structure which most Indians follow is also a social disease from the `Hindus`. Have you ever wondered how Muslim banias or businesses run ?
Your facts about those family assets are wrong anyway. The same articles that point to Azim Premji as the richest Indian also explain the other `families`. The fact that Indian business, in general, is family owned rather that publicly held is the fault of the Hindu.

And TATA`s, WADIAs are Parsees unko to chor do. (Damn it !! how did they escape the Hindu persecution.)

Elsewhere you talk of Urdu speaking Muslims showing downward trends in per capita income, education, etc. Have you cared to find out about trends in those areas (UP,Bihar) of everybody else. You will get your answers. How typically bigotted of you to count only Muslims ?
The population of these states is burgeoning while literacy rates are going down wagera wagera...

You talk of Indian Muslims before and after the Raj. Have you factored in all the educated Muslim elite who migrated to Pakistan ?

You seem to be confused between your ethnic identiy (linguistic state/region) and your religious identity. That aside, what is your argument - that India is not a secular country or that you have faced religious persecution on a personal level.

Lastly, Do you know what Lashkar-i-Tayyiba ( your Mujahideen heroes !!) stands for !!!! If you don`t, you ought to find out.

As an aside, just curios about your pseudonym. What does StudeBaker mean ?

Re: Studebaker

`` Mr.Iconoclast,how dare you barge in like a BULL claiming to be Muslim. ``

-- yeah, right, i barged in and u tip toed like a cat. c`mon.

``(Icanoclast cant be muslim)``

-- while Studebaker can ...

`` You may be in India & what you know Jinnah is a Indian version, ``

-- i do know that he was not a practising muslim, ate pork and drank liquor but was against his daugter marrying a parsi...that man is a complete sell out. But then i don`t think Gandhi or Nehru or Patel are any better too.

`` How do i know?I was born in India Studied & married there. ``

-- if you were discriminated so much in India , i do wonder how you managed to get a comfortable life abroad without the basic education you got in india. Your actions at best could be ungrateful. You are developing a hatred against the country based on the actions of a few Hindu fundamentalists. Remember that these fanatic hindus are at best a subset of the Hindus in India and the majority of Indian Hindus are for secularism since they themselves are no monolithic sect. A tamil hindu would identify more with a tamil muslim and vice versa than with a UP hindu. This is the essence of Indian secularism and pluralism...

`` Dont give me that sellout story of Premji being Muslim Indian& representative of Muslim India as every one know of. ``

-- It is a pointer to what you could have become too, if only you had the same ability as Azimji. (whether or not you/i are muslim). Dig that ?

`` Every statics since partition has consistently shown downward trend in Indian Muslims enrolment in Univ.,Govt.Jobs,Professional colleges, ``

-- True, the fact that these statistics are published by itself shows the democratic nature of India. If only my fellow muslims (the majority are neo-converts from poorer strata and hence are only unemployed hindus becoming unemployed muslims) take up education and try to succeed we would be in better shape.

`` As far as wealth is concerned due to dispropotionately high unemployment among Indian Muslim,particularly urdu speaking PRCAPITA is below national average .``

-- read the above reply. The well to do muslims / or the educated muslims of the 60s are still the educated muslims of the 90s too. This atleast points to the fact that there are no downward trend . lies , damned lies and statistics -- read that somewhere ?

`` I was the one of the best among Indian Scholars in my school & colleges but still ,me could not secure a job for myself ``

-- what did you expect ? that the govt would give a job on a platter for u just because you are the best and you are a muslim. There are scores of Hindus, christians, muslims who go without jobs in India inspite of being good, and that is because of the economic scenario.

`` what can a high school or intermediate average muslim student in India can hope for,Nothing,nothing,nothing. ``

-- the same holds good for hindus or christians or jains too.

`` I know muslim in Gujrat enter there fathers business early and dont face the competition against brahmin &Dalits for limited seats in every college or employment.``

-- the same holds good for hindus or christians or jains too.

`` Independence govt has PURPOSELLY kept them bogged down in Babri,if not then in Shah Bano,or Kashmir. ``

-- what are you talking here. ? with such clarity of thought, i am amazed .........

``You talk about freedom even now when i return to visit my family i am singled out by my Muslim name which i foolishly reserved my berth on And stripped searched in between Delhi & Lucknow after i had paper to prove of having custom cleared from Airport! ``:

-- this is just your word against mine. I don`t face this problem even though i am muslim and indian and even though i speak a smattering of Hindi.

`` I can live easily in India under RAKESH,RAJU, i know the right customs,language,dress,religion to fool any hindu,but that is not how i wanted to live,for i wpould know what will happen as soon as they know who i was!``

-- the same holds good for me too.

``If you give individual Premji s example please note combined values of each of the Familys of tata,Birla,dalmia,are in billion dollars but they divide it among there 100 sons grand & grand grand sons & daughters as is common among joint family tradition of Hindu bania.``

-- nonsense, Azimji did not inherit any wealth he worked for it honestly... and being a Muslim he did not face any discrimination.

-- a white cannot be converted into a black ... and hence a poor white cannot become a poor black... for you to show screwed up statistics.

`` No doubt in there heart KASHMIRI MUSLIMS seeing what happens in the hand of India,wishes they were not Indian even though they might not like Pakistan either! ``

-- lets assume that you are not fortunate enough to live abroad and have to live in India. Then you want the Kashmiris to have their independence because they live in a Muslim majority state. Granted they become a islamic independant country. Would you still think you can live in India as a secular country after this ? what would be the state of the country if the Hindus unite as one masse and remove india`s secularism. Would you relish the prospect of being converted into a Hindu ? Well I don`t , for me secularism in India is my bread and butter. And i would defend it

``I dont hate any Indian more than an Indian muslim who would sell out another ethnic muslims for Indian govt knows very well to play Kerala muslim against U P bihar or Gujrati muslim against South or Andhra! ``

-- Why would you hate anyone at all ?

-- I for one don`t have anything against any Pakistani or other Muslim or not. To each his own. But as an Indian Muslim, I don`t want a non Indian Muslim to shed crocodile tears for us. We chose our bed, and we will sleep in it. And if someone has a problem with us being comfortable with being both an Indian and a muslim, this is all i have to say....go get a life

This is not to say that we don`t have problems. Yes we do have problems for being a Muslim in India.. but then we also know that we face the same problems a christian faces in parts of India or even a Hindu faces in parts of India, or what a Tamilian faces in the North or a Bihari faces in Karnataka . The issue of being a Muslim in India has contrary to popular belief in Pakistan , no shame value in India. We live by our culture within the umbrella of a rather tenuous secularism. And we don`t want to claim that we are better of in Pakistan, just that we are happy being whom we are. If Studebaker is not that is his problem....just shows how ungrateful he is with his mother country ....it is people like him who give the Indian Muslims shame not us

Iconoclast

Stop this Pakistan bashing!!! I am proud of Pakistan?s more than five thousand year old history and confident of its prosperous future.

Yes, our political system has to mature and democracy has to strengthen but that DOES NOT mean that we are at a verge of collapse. I did not think that India was at a brink of collapse when it sent forces to the Golden Temple and killed hundreds and thousands of Sikhs, I did not think that India would collapse when fundamentalist Hindus destroyed the Babri Masjid and showed their respect for other religions and I do not think India will collapse even when it is killing thousands of innocent Kashmiries along with the ``terrorists`` sent by ISI.

Then as far as our neighborly relations are concerned -

Besides with India, Pakistan enjoys good relations with all of it?s neighbors - China, Iran and Afghanistan. India on the other hand has problems with almost all of it?s neighbors - China, Pakistan, Bangladesh. Does that prove anything?

Nuclear tests - So if India conducts tests and says that it will not be the first one to use them then does that make them a responsible and mature nation? Do you honestly believe in whatever your politicians say - and whom do you believe in anyway? There is a new government in India every other month and even if one says that it will not be the first one to use nuclear weapons the next one might not agree to that! In any case - Accept it - It was wrong and immature for both countries to test nuclear weapons and it did not matter what political statements they made afterwards.

At the end I would like to say one thing. If India honestly wants to have peace with Pakistan it will have to accept Pakistan?s existence. It should stop dreaming that Pakistan will collapse one day. Pakistan will survive and so will its 140 million peace loving people who love their homeland so much. If our politicians have done some mistakes we accept it and will work towards fixing it. Indians should do the same.

P.S.: Just to point one thing and how inaccurate and biased Indian Media is - just read this article: http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/national/kargil/19990706-2.html

According to India Express, viewing of foreign media has been banned in Pakistan - Pakistanis can watch CNN, BBC, Star etc. even today- Is that not foreign media?

Ms. Khan

Your `analysis` leaves much to be desired. You seem to be offering insight in to the Kashmir issue but fail to get over Partition, which [thank God] has already been decided.

1. On Pakistan`s ideology you state: ``The true reason, though, is not the fear of oppression. It is fueled by a greed for power and control by three groups of people -- feudal lords, clergy, and most importantly, the army.``

The feudal lords and clergy did not support Jinnah. Most of the same mullahs you now denounce were against Partition [ironic, but would have supported you back then]. And the feudal lords weren`t too supportive of Jinnah either. As for the army it was completely different institution at the time of Partition. Jinnah, once commented that he created the nation with a secretary and a typewriter; such was the lack of support shown to him by feudals and religious leaders. So your basic understanding of the ideology of Pakistan is, shall we say, WRONG.

2. ``Once Pakistan was formed, Jinnah was promptly thrown into a cell, albeit well furnished, and declared ill.`` I know that we as a country have horribly failed to live up to Jinnah`s vision, but he was not ``declared`` ill; he was gravely ill even before Partition. Mountbatten later said, if he had known of Jinnah`s health he would have delayed Independence and ``there would never have been a Pakistan``.

3. The nuclear tests. Your inability to ascribe any blame to the Indian government for nuclearising the subcontinent last year is appalling. Harping on democracy, morality as if they were the hallmarks of Indian society (Hah!) you fail to see anything wrong with ``democratic`` governments plunging their region in to such danger in the midst of peace. Shame on you.

4. India and ``demonstrably free societies``. I, personally, hope India does become a free society. But if you think it even close to such an ideal, you`re dreaming. You are correct to speak of constitutions written on paper; for the vast majority of India`s poor (just like their counterparts in Pakistan) the consitution is just that; a piece of paper which the elites of both countries use to claim the right to be called civilized.

5. Many Indians are trying to position themselves as the Pro-western part of the subcontinent and Pakistan as the Fundamentalist portion. I do not see too many Americans (let`s face it; they are the one`s whose opinions matter these days) buying this crap. Pakistani public opinion has usually been more alligned with western ideals than Indian public opinion, not that is a good way to describe the difference between the two countries. Thus while, you rant and rave at the fallout from the Afghanistan war; I for one am proud of what we did there. Indians have always held somewhat of a soft spot for communism; whereas most Pakistanis find it morally repugnant. The collapse of communism and totalitarian regimes (the same ones that supplied India with arms) is now a historical fact, and to hear Indians speak you would never know of their history with those characters.

Secondly, free-India`s `morality` exhibited itself once again in the Kosovo crisis where their fears of international opinion (God forbid) being focussed on Kashmir, actually made them speak in favor of genocidal regimes headed by communists. While we are speaking about international public opinion and Kashmir, have you ever thought why Pakistan is for it and India against it? Its because, like it or not, we have the stronger argument for Kashmir.

Faraz, you wrote:

``Indians have always held somewhat of a soft spot for communism; whereas most Pakistanis find it morally repugnant.``

Perhaps the Pakistani love of ``morally repugnant`` ideologies accounts for its ``brotherly`` relations with the largest communist dictatorship in the world, China!

Arvind

Re: Arvind

Interesting you should bring up China. Pakistan`s friendship with China is more a result of its problems with India than with any affinity we might feel for their politics. In fact, if there wasn`t a constant environment of tension with India; most of the Pakistani public would be focussed on the way the Chinese treat the Muslims in the west.

Also, the Nixon meeting which ``opened up`` China and can be seen as the first sign of change within that country (change that is still continuing, and will eventually lead to democracy there) was arranged by Pakistan.

Faraz

Here is an article from TIME Asia which shows exactly how the pakistan army planned this operation:

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/1999/990712/loc1.html

And here is another. An interview with a pak soldier who spent 77 days in Kargil:

http://cgi.pathfinder.com/time/asia/magazine/1999/990712/soldier1.html

I wonder how the pakistanis at chowk will respond to this.

Brigadier Qureshi and brother Salahuddin and their bare-faced lies ! Will somebody please give him a decent map of kargil. Recently, after India captured the Tiger Hills, this pathetic joker postulated that it was just another Indian propaganda - there was no such place as Tiger Hills on HIS map !!!!!!!

Dear Pakistanis citizens, wake up! Your govt. and generals are playing with your lives and those of your family. They have their foreign bank accounts and families settled abroad while you will be left paying for their sins.

All the arguments seem to disregard two issues:

1. Kashmir is still considered disputed territory, according to the UN. The fact that India or Pakistan occupies it, does not make it undisputed. None of the agreements Simla, Lahore etc. declared Kashmir to be undisputed territory.

2. The future of Kashmir must be decided by the Kashmiris, not by Pakistanis or Indians. Regardless of what kind of logic Indian supporters presents, and how much they try to blame Pakistan for the Kahsmir problem, they still cannot answer one simple question, i.e. if Kashmir is an integral part of India, and most of the Kashmiris (apart from the freedom fighters) want to side with India, then why is India so reluctant to hold a vote there?

The independence of Kashmir will not be decided by India or Pakistan, or any of the other countries of the world. It will be decided by the people of Kashmir. People that want independence have to fight and sacrifice for it, themselves. That is what the Pakistanis had to do to get Pakistan, and that is what the Indians had to do to get India. Just like the British had to be forced out, similarly the Kashmiris will have to force out the Indians.

The international governments have turned a blind eye to the fact that India has not allowed human rights organizations to enter Kashmir. USA and other countries do not want to, ``rock the boat`` with India. They are very hypocritical when it comes to human rights. What the Kashmiris need to do is bring their struggles into the homes on the common man in these countries through the various news sources like CNN, BBC etc. That is when the general population of the world will get up and notice, and force their governments to denounce Indian actions.

Armies cannot go on commiting human rights violations forever. They are not trained to kill civilians. Eventually something has to give. If the Kashmiris can continue with their struggle, then that is what is going to happen with the Indian army in Kashmir.

This should not be looked at as a battle between Pakistan and India; nor is it a battle between Islam and Hinduism. This is a battle between the oppressed (Kashmiris) versus the oppressors (India). Whether India and Pakistan like or dislike each other is immaterial, because it is the innocent Kashmiris that are being victimized.

To quote a famous Kashmiri, from 1947:

``We have decided that the fate of Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the Kashmiri people. That pledge we have given not only to the people of Kashmir but to the world. We will not, and cannot, back out of it. We are prepared, when peace and law and order have been established, to have a referendum held under the auspices of the United Nations. We want it to be a fair and just reference to the people, and we shall accept the verdict. I can imagine no fairer and juster offer.``

Jawahar Lal Nehru (Oct 1947, All India Radio)

It is time that India held up its side of the bargain.

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Studebaker,

If i remember correctly, Studebaker, is the model name of a chrysler car in the 1950s. (some one asked what it stood for), the name itself is a variation of the trade based name of the poms.

Yes, what i wanted to comment upon was the demonisation of islam. I havnt come across anything from the indian govt media trying to demonise islam, in most of india, particularly in south india, political partie vie for muslim support, offering all kinds of incentives.

In kerala, a district of Malappuram was created simply because the area has large muslim concentration. Over the past 20 years since its creation, the palce is a small pakistan, many muslims involved in the bomb attacks in Coimbatore found shelter in this place.

Demonisation of islam started in the western media following the arab-israel war, theterrorist activities of munich olimpics, the burning of a couple of planes in the arab deserts in the 70s gave a visual image to the islam demon.

It would be wrong to generalise from a single event, but the following from Australia might make you wonder about the islamic mentality.

A local govt school was sold to a muslim society to run an islamic school. The local govt and every one liked the idea, a new cultural infusion into the locality. In the school they started having prayers, people were coming and going in the middle of the night, local people distubed by the trafic objected. The muslims said it is part of the education, the prayers will go on. They went to court, the court ordered the practice to stop. Legally, they could only be fined, $100 per day. The muslims said that they would pay the fine and continue with the practice. The above law has stood for 50 years.

Now the Federal Govt in Australia is forced to amend the law for forceful closure of the offending institution

Now tell me Mr Studebaker was it really necessary for the muslims to come to this. Dont you think some other muslim organisation could have come around for mediation. If the australian media demonises islam can you complain.

May be, just may be there is something inherent in islam that teaches intolerance to other religions. Is it true that according to islam kafirs are to be killed. If so can you say unconditionally that that part of islam is crap. No you wont dare to, fatwas take care of you.

I found the following article which might be interesting to Iconoclast and Studebaker

Source: http://www.afmi.mynet.net/growth.html

Economic Growth of Indian Muslims

By Akram Syed

According to a study conducted by the U.S. Commerce department, India`s growing consumer class, otherwise known as ``middle class,`` ranges from 100 million to 300 million people. This middle class is defined as those people having disposable income to purchase an array of luxurious consumer goods which are considered a daily necessity in the western society. This leaves an alarming 650 to 850 million people of India still struggling to make ends meet including a phenomenal figure of over 100 million Indian Muslims on the border of poverty line.

The country`s major shift in investment and trade policies in favor of free enterprise is succeeding in attracting investment by foreign firms which could mean better opportunity and a higher standard of living for a small percentage of people in the short term. For this phenomenon to have a trickle-down effect, however, India needs to invest heavily on its social and educational upliftment programs among its masses

particularly the minorities.

For the last four decades, many political parties have treated Muslims mainly as a ``vote bank`` without bothering about their social/economic/political well being. Unfortunately, other than giving them empty slogans such as `garibi hatao` and playing with their emotions through confusing situations like `Babari Masjid and ``triple talaq,`` the average Indian politician has done little for these suffering masses. As a result, the poor

not only became poorer but were pushed to the periphery of acute backwardness.

By far, the worst victims of this political mishandling have been the Muslims constituting about 12 to 15 percent of the nation`s population. They do not have a meaningful presence in any field. For instance, they are intensely poor having no land or industry, and at least 97 percent of them are non-existent in trade and finance. Millions are without jobs. According to Gopal Singh`s published report, only about 4 percent of Muslims girls and boys reached the higher secondary level, and only about 1.6 percent passed out of college. They fill less than 4.5 percent of government jobs and 7 percent of the seats on the nation`s high court.

Muslims receive about 2 percent of industrial licenses issued by the government, 3.7 percent of available financial assistance, and about 5 percent of loans approved by public sector banks. Among the 528 members of the Lok Sabha, only 23 members constituting 4.4 percent are Muslims. The scene is likewise in the private sector.

As the statistics mentioned above seem to indicate, Muslims have never been fully integrated into modern Indian society. It is almost pointless to debate which group is at the bottom of the barrel in a country with so many people of several religions living in desperate conditions. Muslims unfortunately confront the toughest barriers when trying to break into India`s growing middle class.

It is worth mentioning that the Indian Muslim community is somewhat responsible for its backwardness by having followed the self-centered leaders whose interest was focused more on non-economic and non-educational issues. The Muslim leadership has only educated the community on emotional issues such as the personal law and Urdu language. Its absolutely true that Indian Muslims have not placed much

emphasis on education. Many Muslims keep their children out of school thereby causing the community`s literacy rate to lag far behind that of other groups. The ``madrasa style`` of education has neither been able to promote skill-oriented or vocational education nor address the sense of priorities among the Muslim community.

The Indian Muslim community must come to the realization that the ``only freedom is economic freedom`` and education is the only vehicle from the present state of illiteracy and darkness to a strong progressive future. For several Muslims, education has been a force in transforming poor underprivileged individuals and families into productive community. For the Indian Muslims, education will offer an opportunity to gain

security, status, comparative affluence, and serve the nation by influencing the decision-making process as mainstream Indians.

It is the government of India`s responsibility to seriously make an attempt to identify the real problems and causes of backwardness among Muslims. The government must promote a grassroots educational initiative directed towards the educational upliftment of Muslims. Some type of reservation must be accommodated to motivate and ensure that the rural and urban minorities have the same access to and are treated equally in the educational institutions as in any other community.

The Indian corporations and business community should institutionalize and promote the transition of Indian minorities from the present state into the middle class by contributing for causes such as drive towards literacy, educational upliftment, etc. It would be in their best interest to have a market base of several hundred million skilled, talented, and educated people with enough buying power to sustain the domestic industry. Indian corporations should invest in community services geared towards minorities instead of funding the radical/fanatic political ideologies. Undoubtedly, some day when the Indian Muslims attain their

economic and social destiny, they will, having forgotten the present chapter of communal suspicion and conflict, face the problems of modern life from a modern perspective. Differences will exist, but they will be economic rather than communal. ``There can be no independence without financial independence.`` Every Indian Muslim should welcome these free market reforms as an opportunity for economic growth and

social status which could be achieved through greater emphasis on education.

Re: Kidwai

thanx for the report. Precisely my opinion too. I do agree that the govt plays with the sentiments of us muslims. However , when i look at it in a wider angle, i do realize that the govt plays with everyones sentiments. afterall this is just vote bank politics. thus, a scheduled caste/ scheduled tribe is played against the other backward castes, the obc`s are played against the forward caste, the christians , the muslims and the hindus are all pitted against each other for vote gain. However, if one individual irrespective of his background, religion, caste or creed decides that he is going to improve his own livelihood, India does provide him/her with that. Atleast no one is denied admission in college, or employment based on religion. If only n percent of muslims are sanctioned loans, then we should also look at how many muslims apply for loans. IN my circle of friends, there are 3 other muslim, 6 hindus, 2 christians and 1 jain. All the 3 other muslims are from well to do families. Two of them are in the US doing/have done higher studies, and one of them runs a flourishing timber business back home. They are easily the most educated and well to do in our circle. Add me into the picture and you get an idea of where we come from.

As far as Studebakers contention that Kashmiri struggle is not based on religion....that does not hold water. If it does , then we should be asking for referendums in Andhrapradesh and Goa. The point is simple,,, Muslims are not discriminated against in India , especially not in Kashmir (atleast as per official policy) like Hindus and christians are in Pakistan. We are ruled by the law of the land , not religion as in Pakistan. That is the difference and we need to preserve it. For our good and for the good of our kashmiri brethen.

Iconoclast

(yes, it does mean breaker of images - wrong images -- if that means idol breaker well it does )

Let me begin by congratulating Ms Khan for such a balanced, thoughtful, and absorbing article. I enjoyed reading it.

I have also noticed that this article has generated a very healthy debate, with people coming up with all kinds of arguments and counter-arguments. I don`t know if that yields anything, but as an Indian, I like free flow of thoughts and expression.

Many say that the Kashmiris should have the right to self-determination. Well, why? Did the rest of Indians have the same rights (in 1947)? Why wasn`t a referendum held in 1947 to decide whether the Indian people wanted partition? If a referendum had been held, the Indian masses would have rejected the idea of partition. But the British, Nehru, Jinnah, etc (all non-elected people, with no mandate to represent Indians) went ahead and wrongly partitioned the country.

Anyway, what can we do at this time? Well, what do people do when they no longer want to live in their usual place of birth or residence? Of course, they emigrate. They go to UK, US, etc. Similarly, if Kashmiris (or ANYONE from India, for that matter) do not want to live in India, they are free to go to Pakistan or anywhere else. Will Pakistan accept that? Perhaps not. You see, the Pakis are NOT interested in the well-being of the Kashmiris. They just want the land and also want to score a point with the Indians. The people of India are determined not to let that happen. And, Inshallah, India will emerge as the victor in the current and future imbroglios.

Re: Fauziya Khan Reply #: 29

`` Why does India not take any legal action againstt the likes of Bal Thakray who continue to spit venom against the minorities (read Muslims)?``

India is a democracy - and there is the right of speech. However, hardly anyone pays attention to Mr. Bal Thakray. Pakistan`s recent actions only give credence to the likes of him, does it not.

``What about the scenario when Pakistan, with its back to the wall, fires a few Nuclear missiles at India and manages to kill say a couple of hundred thousand Indians (Hindus???) ? I am pretty certaint that India would, even then, not exercise its nuclear option.``

Wow ! Where did you get that from ?

Pakistan is generally regarded in India as a ``buzzing nuisance`` (Pritish Nandy). Not an enemy worthy of full and complete attention. However, if pakistan were to commit the first sin, this would change dramatically. The kid-gloves would be off and pakistan would be well on its way to becoming an ashtray, make no mistake on that.

re: Iconoclast

Hear Hear !!
....And you do, do a good job of smashing the Indian Hindu idol/image in some Muslim minds and the Indian Muslim idol/image in some Hindu minds. :-)

Studebaker:

Iconoclast has the right idea. I`m an upper caste from the Deccan. I grew up in a system with 70% reservation. My generation (and every generation) had to slog it`s butt off to get into college and be someone. This holds for anyone, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Parsi. Seats to colleges are dependent on marks, not on religion. So stop cribbing that Muslims alone are somehow magically excluded from the system. Apparently none of the other Indian Muslims on this forum have suffered from the same affliction as you claim all Muslims do..Life in India is hard, buddy, for everyone..deal with it.

I`ve seen all kinds of statements from Lashkar and Harkat about how they want to liberate Kashmir, starting with Kargil. The problem is that the Balti Shias in Kargil have no desire to be ``liberated`` by these Pakhtun fundamentalists. There has been no insurgency worth the name in Kargil, people have no cribs with the GOI, and they are all very p * * * *ed with Pakistan right now for shelling them. I can refer articles if anyone wants. Makes the ``Mujaheds`` claim of ``liberating`` Kargil seem a bit hollow, dosen`t it?

I`ve also seen statements from Gen. Aslam Beg, I think, to the effect that Ladakh should be taken by Pakistan because the people are not Hindus!. Get a grip, people..I`m sure the Ladakh scouts will welcome you in. The Mujahedin and their backers seem to have mastered the art of making wild statements by the day.

Regarding the Kashmir problem.. the Kashmiris have a problem with being insular. This is a common charecterestic of most valley people in a lot of places, and the Kashmiris are no exception. Even Kashmiri Pundits have often been accused of being very insular even when they migrate elsewhere in India.

This insularity has contributed to the Kashmir problem immensely. Leaders like Sheikh Abdullah and Farooq who regarded the valley as their Jagir have not exactly enabled the integration of the valley with the rest of India. How does this matter? The oft repeated Kashmiri claim that they have been ill-treated by the Union because:

1) Indira annuled the elections of 1983

2) Appointed her own govt.

3) Farooq and Rajiv came together and rigged 1987

and that`s they took to arms is a illogical explanation. Similiar dirty politics have been played in every state in the union. In AP Rama Rao`s govt. was dismissed by Indira with no cause. The people did not slip over to Sri Lanka, load up with Aks and come back to kill (and there are a lot of Muslims in AP too. I didn`t seem them yelling ``Azadi`` and burning houses). They took part in the next election, trounced Indira and brought Rama Rao back. This is the way the system works, people. The problem is when certain people think they deserve extra special treatment (kind of like you, Studebaker) and don`t get it, they run around doing themselves and everyone else a lot of damage. So, Kashmir is not all about a religious problem, despite what people might think.

Ms. Khan,

`` Why does India not take any legal action againstt the likes of Bal Thakray who continue to spit venom against the minorities (read Muslims)?``

As others have said earlier, in India people have freedom (a bit too much) to shout their mouth off. This idiocy is not limited to Hindus alone. The happy imam of Delhi, Imam Bukhari had gone to Srinagar in 1988 and given a speech that would have him tried for sedition in any other country. Some maulana in U.P recently said that Muslims might face a conflict of interests in Kashmir since they are bound to assist a jehad. They should have locked him up too. And of course our commie pets always screech from behind the bars of their ideological cages whenever they can - since it`s the only thing left for them to do. I`d deal with them ASAP. But what to do? we are like this only..

Najib:

Your views have a striking similarity with those of Milosevic.

Jinnah was the leader of the Muslim league. The Muslim league had elected representatives from the Muslim communities in India. In hindsight, Jinnah made the correct decision by forming Pakistan. The current Kashmir situation is a good example of what would have happened to Muslims had Pakistan not been created. Even now, the per capita income of a Pakistani Muslim is much higher than that of an Indian Muslim (or Hindu, for that matter).

The Kashmiris want independence from India, for the same reason the Indians wanted independence from the British. No one wants to be forced to live under another group of people. India seems only to be interested in the land of Kashmir, and not in the people.

The Kashmiris will eventually get their independence, just like the Indians and Pakistanis got their independence. It will be a long struggle, with a lot of innocent people getting killed, against an oppresive regime. It will require a lot of sacrificies, but it will happen. The Indian military can only kill innocent people for so long. Eventually, the people in the rest of the world will take notice.

Kashmiris need to be supported by Pakistanis not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. They should be supported because they are right. All religions, Hiduism, Islam, Christianity etc. preach that in the end right defeats wrong.

Re: Fauziya Khan

Interesting observations. An excellent synposis of the situation confronting Pakistan, which made a whole lot of sense till the following lines:

``....the military and the clergy of Pakistan are busy sharpening their swords, behind the scenes, for the final assault on the United States, Western Europe and India....``

What could have been an excellent article merely turned out be another in a long series of sabre rattlings. I wish you had avoided the that line all together!

Ms. Khan

Where are you from? India or Pakistan?

Iconaclaust

As a fellow Tamilian, please accept my best regards.

I would like to tell my experience with Muslims in general. My neighbor in the suburb of chennai is a Muslim. He owns a lot of businesses, including a grocery shop and a flour mill. He is the richest person in our neighborhood. None of his children even finished high school. In fact, he got his daughter married off when she was hardly 14. Now, can he blame Hindus if his children could not get jobs?

However, when I went away to college, I came across some Muslims both male and female who were outstanding students. I guess their families must have placed a premium on education.

BTW, being an Iconoclaust, what do you think about Periyar and his movement? Do you think he was a good influence? His atheist followers always attack Hinduism but do not dare to touch Muslims.

This in response to what UR posted:

My friend, you have got it all wrong! What makes you think my views are similar to Milosevic`s? Indeed, as a Muslim, the last thing I would like to see is killing/massacres.

You contend that Kashmiris are not the ``same people`` as other Indians and that is why Pakistan wants Kashmir to secede from the Indian Union. Well, India is a diverse country with 32 states and territories, with more than 20 languages and scores of dialects, several religions, etc. In your opinion, all other states of India too should break away! Ridiculous! Indeed, that way, you are giving legitimacy to demands of Sindhudesh in Pakistan. Similarly, the Balochis, Mohajirs, Ahmadiyas etc too should take away a piece of Pakistan and form their own countries.

The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural, lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its future? I again insist that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing innocent lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).

It is also wrong to compare India`s freedom struggle agains the British to the TERRORISM IN KASHMIR. The British were outsiders (like the Moghuls) and a minority. They colonised us and exploited our resources, taking away our fundamental rights. In the case of Kashmir, the Kshmiris are Indians (like you and me; yes, you too are of Indian origin!) living in a diverse and SECULAR country, enjoying the same rights as the rest of their countrymen (and women).

You guys also have a distorted view about India`s internal situation, thinking that we are having dozens of `freedom struggles`. The Sikh problem is already over. There is no other major problem, except sporadic incidents in the state of Assam. My friend, you cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it can be for any country of such size and diversity to maintain 100% peace. Pakistan, which is 100% Muslim and much smaller, still faces the Sindhudesh, Mohajir, Balochi uprisal, etc. Try to understand the complexities, and you will learn to appreciate how well we Indians have managed ourselves.

Najib Qureshi

Maharaj brings up a valid point. Muslims in India, some despite being well off, keep perpetuating idiocies like skimping on education and marrying their daughters off under age. Getting a girl married off at 14 is a crime. Maharaj did anyone report that to the authorities?

Added to that we`ll listen to any bearded mullah to crawl out of the mohalla`s gutters. Before we can point fingers at anyone else, as Indian Muslims we need to put our own house in order.

Ms. Khan, what an impartial and balanced article!
I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the
reasons for the genesis of this article which
at best lives up only to it`s title.
Talk about flame-baiting. I`ve recently read
similar work in just about every Indian publication there is.
On Indian Muslims, I for one welcome their retention of their ``Indianess``. All the best to
you guys, but win or lose or as this article states that for us lowly people of Pakistani origin ``lose or lose`` we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.
So please continue to support your Indian nirvana
but remember that our hell as this article seems
to project is and always will be for us (once again) lowly Pakistanis the object of our love.
So give Pakistanis credit that in spite of the Pakistani rulers, a people do exist that have
the talents to match any other on this planet, especially in the area of survival against great odds.

Ras

This in response to Ras Siddiqui.

Mr Siddiqui, you have unnecessarily tried to say that Ms Khan thinks of Pakistanis as `lowly` people. She did not say anything to that effect in her article, and it is unfair for you to vent your anger over what certainly are some true facts about Pakistan (in the article).

You also referred to yourself as a person of `Pakistani` origin. That is wrong. All Pakistanis are of Indian origin. Like it or not, the whole landmass, which you now call `Pakistan`, is of Indian origin!

About Kashmir: You people have already taken away a large piece of land (Pakistan) from India and still want more (Kashmir)! How greedy can you be? The problem with your standpoint is that you think that people from different cultural,lingual, or religious backgrounds cannot and should not live together. I refuse to accept that. Diversity is a strength and it is desirable. We in India believe that all kinds of people can and should live together. It is on this basis that I consider the partition of India (and creation of Pakistan) a wrong incidence. Moreover, if Pakistan is so concerned about right to self-determination, why is your government supporting China`s hold over the poor Tibetans? How many Pakistanis have spoken

against the oppression of Muslims in China`s Xingjiang (western) province? How many of you have spoken in favor of Taiwan`s right to determine its

future? These double-standards of Pakistan has convinced us and the world that the Pakis have no interest in the well-being of the people of the Indian state of Kashmir. You guys are frustrated by our repeated victories and simply wish to score a point. Sadly, it is costing human lives. Allah will never pardon Pakistan for this (he has punished Pakistan once by creating Bangladesh).

Let peace be everywhere, and let us work together for a better, safer future.

Re: Ras Siddiqui Reply #: 45

``I believe that CHOWK should continue it`s practice of introducing the background of each writer. I certainly would be interested in the reasons for the genesis of this article...``

Is truth a matter of origin/background of the speaker ? Do facts depend on `how you look` at them ? Something has obviously hurt you deeply.

`` ... we are not yet ready to give up on Kashmir.``

One can see your emotional feelings here. However you don`t seem to understand that Indians have an EQUAL feeling about Kashmir.

BTW, suppose Kashmir were to be annexed by Pakistan somehow. Which province of the present Pakistan would it look like, after say 10 years of Pakistani rule - Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan or Pakhtoonistan ?

For the reasons only the Chowk staff knows, my post submitted a week ago re this article did not get posted.

I`d like to know why.

REF: Jawahara, you asked ``Getting a girl married off at 14 is a crime. Maharaj did anyone report that to the authorities?``

Well, India has to go a long way in terms of its citizens being aware and performing their civic duties.

Moreover, I was very young at that time. One thing I have to be honest about. There was always a fear about Muslims. A fear based on a prejuidice that Muslims are quick to get angry and become violent. A fear that any small confrontation could flare up into a riot. I was brought up to not to get in their way. They are to be left alone.

Regarding child marriages, I understand that they are common among some tribes in Rajasthan. They are not Muslims either.

Re Najib:

You need to keep one thing in mind, i.e. Kashmir never belonged to India (or to Pakistan, for that matter). It was occupied by both these countries. If I occupy your house against your will, does it belong to me? Even if I occupy it for 50 years, it still does not belong to me.

That is where Kashmir is different from any other region in India or Pakistan. As I mentioned earlier, I support the Kashmiris not because they are Muslims, nor because they are battling India. I support them because their land has been occupied against their will, by a country that is more interested in the land, than it is in the people.

If the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side wanted independence from Pakistan, or wanted to join India, I would support them as well. But being half-Kashmiri myself, I know that the Kashmiris on the Pakistan side are quite content.

Its a very simple concept. I will explain it to you once again. Kashmir was occupied by force, against the will of its people. The people are are not happy with this situation. They are fighting for their independence, and are being killed. Pakistan is willing to give them the right to vote for their independence, India is not.

Please remember Kashmir is legally, morally, and ethically still disputed territory. So the Kashmiri freedom fighter can only be called atraitor, if he goes against the interests of Kashmir. Currently, he is going against the interests of India, and not against the interests of Kashmir. So he is not a traitor. India is trying to suppress the people in the hope that over time, the people will give up, and accept Indian rule. Unfortunately for India, this is not working out.

Civilized countries allow people to vote for their future. The example of Quebec in Canada is a good example (even though Quebec is not even a disputed territory).

If India is so sure that the average Kashmiri wants to be a part of India, then why not let the Kashmiris vote. This will solve the problem, once and for all. What is India afraid of?

Re: Najib

At many places in this forum, you have written that the creation of Pakistan was ``wrong`` and ``illegal``.

If that is the case, then my friend all of India should be ruled by muslims just like the way it was ruled before the British came to India.

On the other hand, the Pakistanis should ask for all of the land(India)that they, muslims, ruled before the British came to India. So the Pakistanis should not only be asking for Kashmir, but also for West Bengal, Assam, Hyberabad Deccan and all the other territories and states ``illegally`` occupied by the ``worst`` democracy in the world, India, which can ban news on tv and newspapers which show more facts than fiction about Kashmir and India as a whole.

Iconoclast:

Thanks - I`m flattered to be quoted. There are so many Indians, including many with Muslim names and backgrounds, standing up for secularism and more specifically Indian secularism, warts and all, on this forum. I feel a fraternity with all such people. The point is not so much what India IS but what we want it to BE. That is India. Everything else is getting there.

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Re: Studebaker.

-- I know scores of Hindus who have been victimised in India too.. The point is that we have many a rich Hindu and a rich Muslim or a rich whatever in India living a comfortable life. and a secure one too. If India was anything other than secular, all the rich Muslims of India who do have an option to get out of this country would have done just that... like the hindus did in Pakistan or the Tamils did in Sri Lanka. The issue in India is poverty not religious fundamentalism as in Pakistan where it is both.

Indian secularism is not comparable to SriLanka or Bangladesh. Both do not have secularism,,, they both have national religions . You dim-wit.

It is people like u who give us a bad name.

And the reason we Indians (muslim or hindus or christians ) keep harping on secularism is because we need to keep our masses reminded off it (what with the fundamentalist neighbours we have). America does not face this ---do u dig that. ? Turncoats like u are more dangerous than Pakistanis. I would peg u right in the same league as a Hindu Shiv Shena or our local fundamenatalist Mullah.....

Iconoclast.

Re: Iconoclast

I have read your posts here and on other interacts and feel that you are the kind I would like to have on my team. Thanks Sir for your principled and educated positions on various topics. That you admitted to being Tamilian has earned you one more star in my books.

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RE. Studebaker

You said `What is extra in India as a result of secularism that is

not in other democratic country like,sri Lanka,or Bangladesh etc.`

I cannot believe it. Sri Lanka is a Buddhist country. Tamil Hindus are getting butchered there. The `Buddhist Monks` wield huge power in national politics there. They whip up hatred against Tamil Hindus.

About Bangaldesh. Was it not a country that started off as a secular one under Mujibur Rehaman. Soon after they got rid of him, did not Bangaldesh call itself an Islamic Republic?

BTW, what should India do to be really `Secular` for you? All Hindus should become Muslims?

I do not believe or practice any religious ritual. For that matter looking at the way some `religious people` behave, I am not sure even if GOD exists. But still I call myself as a Hindu.

As a Muslim, what do you want Indian government to do? Give you special rights?. People should fawn over you and patronize you?

I have a white neighbor. All I want him to respect my individual and human rights and treat me fairly. I do not expect him to paint himself Black or Brown to please me.

Re: Studebaker

For the pun of it: You are right, ``beggers can`t be choosers!`` But, the choosers have become beggers!! How ironic!!!

Re: Studebaker

`` I never doubt that Indian Muslims love India & in some extent more than a Hindu but it is like loving a ``Taken woman``. ``

-- Now u are being down right ridiculous. If this issue of a Taken woman is considered, then all of us Muslims should go back to Arabia. If India is a ``Taken woman`` for Indian Muslims, then is Pakistan ``an abducted wife of another man`` for the Pakistani Muslims. something like Should the Blacks stop loving America since it is a White country ? . You are being quite confused Studebaker.... India belongs to Indians.... and not to Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. If India is a Taken Woman for the Indian Muslims, then by the same token , it is a Taken woman for all Indians, since there is no single block of people who are a majority in India to claim this country. Even the Hindus are not united as a block. A tamil Hindu is much closer to a Tamil Muslim than to a Punjabi Hindu.......Look at it without your perverted glasses, will ya.

`` You may love it to death but it aint going to be yours ,``

-- It is already mine. As much as a Kashmiri would claim that Kashmir is his, or a Keralite would claim that Kerala is his. You don`t have to decide for me. If u hate India so be it... you can take the next flight to whereever you want to go...

``All your arguments do not prove a thing ``,

-- they do busybody... all u need to do is to look

`` can you attribute a rich muslims motive of staying in India as patriotism,nationalism& not pure simple economics ``

-- Even a rich Kosavar does not want to stay in Serbia... And now after the Nato action, even a rich Serbian does not want to stay in Kosova. During the Tamil issue in Srilanka, no Tamil rich or poor wanted to stay in SriLanka. The Same could apply for any place. BTW, the rich Indian Muslims could stay in a foreign country as rich as they are in India. Yet, they chose not to do so. Someone as intelligent like Abdul Kalam could have joined an american university and become an american citizen by now... but then he chooses to stay in India and creates the nuclear bomb and the Agni missiles. Now are u telling me that the RAW is forcing him. He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost Brahmin dominated).

`` or a poor muslims inability to do so & not choice, ``

-- precisely my point. Pray tell me, how in day to day life, Indian Muslims are caused Misery by the establishment or by the Hindus... instead of talking of annihilation in india, let us all know what is your view in concrete evidence, and i will counter your view point by point....

`` Blaming all mismanagement on poverty is just hiding the dirt under the carpet ``

-- i do not deny the dirt. We have hindu fundamentalism in our country as much as we have muslim or christian fundamentalism. The point is in India, the secular minded far out weigh the fundoos. The state does not practise religion, does not sanction religious segregation. Education, Jobs, administration are all based on equal opportunity. First we muslims are the ones to be blamed for our economic situation. How can u blame the government when you have been given the opportunity to do well ?

`` TEMPORARILY ,there is poverty in all countries including in USA,then whole civil rights movement could be brushed aside as ``povert ridden blacks problem``

``

-- No, just like the civil rights movements, we too need similar movements to protect us. not divide us further . like u propose......

``There are non muslims in Bangladesh & Tamilians in Sri Lanka & they will stay there always ,they have choice to leave but they choose to live ``

-- in SriLanka...yes and only today. Not Ten years back. In Bangladesh....I would beg to differ.

``How is your choice any better than theres!!!!``

-- no my choice is not any better than theirs. However theirs and mine are much better than yours. We are atleast not traitors to our own cause.

Iconoclast

RE. Iconaclast

You said ``He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost

Brahmin dominated). ``

What university is that?

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Re: Studebaker:

`` there is killing in sri Lanka but constitutionally all non buddhist there have equal rights ``

-- Today, yes ...but not 10 years back. Tamils had educational quotas which made a Tamil with a higher score ineligible for admission when compared with a Sinhalese. In india, it is actually the other way around. The minorities have quotas which provide them an opportunity even when they have lower scores. India has an affirmative action as in the US, while the Kosovars or the Tamils in srilanka did not enjoy such privileges. There was mass genocide in these areas, which for ur reference has never occurred in India. What is happening in India is localised riots, as much as riots between shias and sunnis happen in Pakistan.

``I want a understanding Govt. ``

-- who does`nt

``which irrespective of its electoral not do what Muslims are made to demand,Babri issue,Shah Bano fiasco,Dilips medal from pakistan,``

-- yes , these are division strategies. But the main culprits here are the Muslim masses who succumb like lambs to these wolfs. As long as we stand united in our ideals and our goals, and let the religious fanatics in our midst at bay, Shah Bano would not have happened. Babri is a different story though....That i agree is a sin by the Hindu fanatics...but i know that most of my hindu classmates were ashamed by that. A friend of mine, a hindu female, actually cried in class the next day ... And i promise that those tears were real.....How many countries can proudly claim that ..?

``What any noble administration should do not so much to appease them like a kid but WHAT IT CERTAINLY KNOWS IS IN THERE LONGTERM INTERESTS &GOOD FOR THEM RATHER THAN SHORT TERM CANDIES TO GET OVER THE ELECTIONS! ``

-- the indian politicians do that with not only the Muslims, but with the christians, the backward classes, the scheduled tribes, the forward classes, and what not... for them it is only a question of votes. As the electorate, we must choose the best breed. People deserve the government they get.

``What i am trying to say there isnt any significant number of Muslims particularly in Tamil Nadu worth even a mention in discussion in the Nixus of political dynamics peri & post partition.``

-- overall we are probably only 5-8 percent. but in certain pockets we are pretty strong in number.

`` I never heard of communal riots southern than maharashtra region.It is the northern region where not only muslims even now (After Partition)remain . ``

-- we have occasional riots in tamil nadu (trichy, coimbatore) , kerala (all over) , karnataka (shimoga, belgaum, bangalore, mangalore), AP (hyderabad) ....even though it is a shame

`` I dont think any body in sane mind can say to muslims to leave voluntarily at the whims of cricket match,or peaceful,demonstration of grievences under democratic country.But what the majority has been succesfully doing is psychologically subjugeting to feel GUILTY,untruly about historical events.

``

-- the way u put across ur views about India, it is a little wonder that hindus and christians of India have their suspicion on us....

iconoclast

RE: Studebaker & Iconoclast

Guys you both are Indians and muslims, arguing from 2 different points of view.

Studebaker is trying to say that he has been procecuted, because he has a muslim name. Now I understand that in a secular country like India, that should not be the case. However, authorities all over the world use what is called Profiling. Studebaker, you mentioned that you had been checked at the airport. That means you had been travelling. In recent bomb blasts the trend has been that the terrorists come from out of town, do their dirty deeds and then get out. As a majority of them tend to be muslim, and have muslim names, I would understand why the authorities would err on the side of caution. I would only request you as a fellow Indian, and a Hindu to not take that incident to heart. ``A few rotten apples spoil the lot``. This is the essence of Profiling used at airports and public places all over the world. From Chicago where if they see a green (Pakistani) passport, they open the luggage (happened to my Pakistani friend), to Singapore (where they will not stop their cabs for Indians/Pakistanis/browns), becuase we tend to not give good tips.

So please do not feel hurt by that or other similiar incident, now or in the future. They are merely a method of catching the bad apples.

To Iconoclast, I will say that for all the supporting pro-india points you have given, thanks. It is very encouraging to hear such things from fellow Indians who are not Hindus. Another point that you could add, it the fact that muslims in india (for better or for worse)enjoy special rights (the Muslim Civil Law) that is not given in other secular countries like the USA or UK. While I do not agree with this, I feel that it can be used to counter any charges of pseudo-secularism in India. Even though this is ironical, that it the only effective means of combatting the likes of Imam Bukhari and others.

I hope and pray that muslims in general learn to be tolerant of other religons. My neighbours are muslims, (in a good locality in New Delhi). Every year, we get delecious biryani and meat on Eid and we send sweets to them during Diwali. They greet us with the customary greeting on our religious occassions just like we wish them well on theirs.

That is the kind of society that flourishes.

finally the main enemy of the muslims (and Hindus) in India is ignorance arising from uneducation. Nothing else, but education can change the state of the muslims that are going down. And no one will inspire the muslims to get a decent, mordern education, but themselves, just like all the other communities in India.

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Studebaker:

With regard to the incident in the train. When I was about 15 years old, I was walking in Delhi towards the Republic Day parade. As I got closer to the parade, suddenly a policeman just pulled me by my collars and hurled me. There had been no provacation, words anything. He wanted me to take a different route and this was his way of telling me that. Bottom line, India`s insitutions and society are only half-developed. Many years ago, there was the case of Bhagalpur police in Bihar (or East UP, not sure) blinding prisoners by pouring acid in their eyes. The anti-Sikh riots are there for all to see. The question then becomes: how do we react to all this? Do we just get angry and turn our backs on Indian society or do we maintain our optimistic belief that we can improve things and reform ourselves. I think the reason why you find many of us arguing with you is that some of your statements are broadly anti-India and not limited to being anti the evils of India. If you can remain focussed on the evils and stop criticizing everything, you will find that I am on your side.

STUDEbaker

When it comes to the Police, in North India, wether it be New Delhi, or Lucknow or Bihar, they are the scum of the earth. They are uneducated, corrupt B * * * * * *S, who will use what ever excuse they can to extract some money from you.

In your case they used a muslim name. In my case, my friends and I were coming from a 9-12 hindi movie, and were stopped by the police at the many check posts in New Delhi.

They then tried to ask us for money, saying that we looked like hoodlums. They threatened to take us to the `Thana` (police station). It was because we had no problems with it that, he realised that we were not going to bend to his whims and fancies, and he let us go.

Now I understand that when you have your wife and kids with you, you cannot afford to stand up to them. But I told you about this incident just let you know that it is not a hindu/muslim thing when it comes to the corrupt police. They will use, relgion (as in your case), age (in my case) and what ever else that they can think of, just to get their hands on some money.

While on the subject of Hindu/muslims in INdia, I personally have many workers in my business who are muslims, and I have the best of relations with them. One of our drivers is a muslim, (he has been in the family since I was a kid). We call him, bhai, out of respect. He has worked in a Hindu family for his whole life.

I studied in a catholic school in delhi. There is a cathedral, a gurudwara a mosque and a temple, within .5 km radius cirle. I remember when going through that area I would join hands at each and every one of them. My unlce used to tell me that they are all places of worship, and that we should respect all of them.

It was only when I grew up, and came to the US that I got in touch with another breed of muslims. These were the rigid, hard core type, who could not respect other people`s religon, just because it was not Islamic. As I got to know them better I realised that a lot of these people had been brought up in the Gulf and pakistan where they were taught that Hindus were filthy pigs and that they were below contempt. It was a stark contrast from the type of mulims that I knew in Delhi.

However, I used my sense of judgement, to not categorise all the muslims in the one boat. I realised that living in a completely singular community (all muslims) had closed their minds to the fact that poeple can live together, inspite of having different beliefs.

A lot of mulims livning in India, are bought up with Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. The schools they go to normally do not dole out religious teachings (normally... there might be exceptions). So they grow up with an open mind. they tend to keep religon personal (as it should be) and do not try to impose their views on others.

Anyway, that taught me that to generalise a whole group of people based on the negative experience you had with some of them is not correct. However, that remains my opinion, which might be different from yours. But that is OK.. as in India we are free to have whatever opinion we want to have. ;-)

AD