Falsehoods Galore

Re: Studebaker.

-- I know scores of Hindus who have been victimised in India too.. The point is that we have many a rich Hindu and a rich Muslim or a rich whatever in India living a comfortable life. and a secure one too. If India was anything other than secular, all the rich Muslims of India who do have an option to get out of this country would have done just that... like the hindus did in Pakistan or the Tamils did in Sri Lanka. The issue in India is poverty not religious fundamentalism as in Pakistan where it is both.

Indian secularism is not comparable to SriLanka or Bangladesh. Both do not have secularism,,, they both have national religions . You dim-wit.

It is people like u who give us a bad name.

And the reason we Indians (muslim or hindus or christians ) keep harping on secularism is because we need to keep our masses reminded off it (what with the fundamentalist neighbours we have). America does not face this ---do u dig that. ? Turncoats like u are more dangerous than Pakistanis. I would peg u right in the same league as a Hindu Shiv Shena or our local fundamenatalist Mullah.....

Iconoclast.

Re: Iconoclast

I have read your posts here and on other interacts and feel that you are the kind I would like to have on my team. Thanks Sir for your principled and educated positions on various topics. That you admitted to being Tamilian has earned you one more star in my books.

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RE. Studebaker

You said `What is extra in India as a result of secularism that is

not in other democratic country like,sri Lanka,or Bangladesh etc.`

I cannot believe it. Sri Lanka is a Buddhist country. Tamil Hindus are getting butchered there. The `Buddhist Monks` wield huge power in national politics there. They whip up hatred against Tamil Hindus.

About Bangaldesh. Was it not a country that started off as a secular one under Mujibur Rehaman. Soon after they got rid of him, did not Bangaldesh call itself an Islamic Republic?

BTW, what should India do to be really `Secular` for you? All Hindus should become Muslims?

I do not believe or practice any religious ritual. For that matter looking at the way some `religious people` behave, I am not sure even if GOD exists. But still I call myself as a Hindu.

As a Muslim, what do you want Indian government to do? Give you special rights?. People should fawn over you and patronize you?

I have a white neighbor. All I want him to respect my individual and human rights and treat me fairly. I do not expect him to paint himself Black or Brown to please me.

Re: Studebaker

For the pun of it: You are right, ``beggers can`t be choosers!`` But, the choosers have become beggers!! How ironic!!!

Re: Studebaker

`` I never doubt that Indian Muslims love India & in some extent more than a Hindu but it is like loving a ``Taken woman``. ``

-- Now u are being down right ridiculous. If this issue of a Taken woman is considered, then all of us Muslims should go back to Arabia. If India is a ``Taken woman`` for Indian Muslims, then is Pakistan ``an abducted wife of another man`` for the Pakistani Muslims. something like Should the Blacks stop loving America since it is a White country ? . You are being quite confused Studebaker.... India belongs to Indians.... and not to Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. If India is a Taken Woman for the Indian Muslims, then by the same token , it is a Taken woman for all Indians, since there is no single block of people who are a majority in India to claim this country. Even the Hindus are not united as a block. A tamil Hindu is much closer to a Tamil Muslim than to a Punjabi Hindu.......Look at it without your perverted glasses, will ya.

`` You may love it to death but it aint going to be yours ,``

-- It is already mine. As much as a Kashmiri would claim that Kashmir is his, or a Keralite would claim that Kerala is his. You don`t have to decide for me. If u hate India so be it... you can take the next flight to whereever you want to go...

``All your arguments do not prove a thing ``,

-- they do busybody... all u need to do is to look

`` can you attribute a rich muslims motive of staying in India as patriotism,nationalism& not pure simple economics ``

-- Even a rich Kosavar does not want to stay in Serbia... And now after the Nato action, even a rich Serbian does not want to stay in Kosova. During the Tamil issue in Srilanka, no Tamil rich or poor wanted to stay in SriLanka. The Same could apply for any place. BTW, the rich Indian Muslims could stay in a foreign country as rich as they are in India. Yet, they chose not to do so. Someone as intelligent like Abdul Kalam could have joined an american university and become an american citizen by now... but then he chooses to stay in India and creates the nuclear bomb and the Agni missiles. Now are u telling me that the RAW is forcing him. He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost Brahmin dominated).

`` or a poor muslims inability to do so & not choice, ``

-- precisely my point. Pray tell me, how in day to day life, Indian Muslims are caused Misery by the establishment or by the Hindus... instead of talking of annihilation in india, let us all know what is your view in concrete evidence, and i will counter your view point by point....

`` Blaming all mismanagement on poverty is just hiding the dirt under the carpet ``

-- i do not deny the dirt. We have hindu fundamentalism in our country as much as we have muslim or christian fundamentalism. The point is in India, the secular minded far out weigh the fundoos. The state does not practise religion, does not sanction religious segregation. Education, Jobs, administration are all based on equal opportunity. First we muslims are the ones to be blamed for our economic situation. How can u blame the government when you have been given the opportunity to do well ?

`` TEMPORARILY ,there is poverty in all countries including in USA,then whole civil rights movement could be brushed aside as ``povert ridden blacks problem``

``

-- No, just like the civil rights movements, we too need similar movements to protect us. not divide us further . like u propose......

``There are non muslims in Bangladesh & Tamilians in Sri Lanka & they will stay there always ,they have choice to leave but they choose to live ``

-- in SriLanka...yes and only today. Not Ten years back. In Bangladesh....I would beg to differ.

``How is your choice any better than theres!!!!``

-- no my choice is not any better than theirs. However theirs and mine are much better than yours. We are atleast not traitors to our own cause.

Iconoclast

RE. Iconaclast

You said ``He is also the honorary chancellor of my univeristy (which BTW is almost

Brahmin dominated). ``

What university is that?

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Re: Studebaker:

`` there is killing in sri Lanka but constitutionally all non buddhist there have equal rights ``

-- Today, yes ...but not 10 years back. Tamils had educational quotas which made a Tamil with a higher score ineligible for admission when compared with a Sinhalese. In india, it is actually the other way around. The minorities have quotas which provide them an opportunity even when they have lower scores. India has an affirmative action as in the US, while the Kosovars or the Tamils in srilanka did not enjoy such privileges. There was mass genocide in these areas, which for ur reference has never occurred in India. What is happening in India is localised riots, as much as riots between shias and sunnis happen in Pakistan.

``I want a understanding Govt. ``

-- who does`nt

``which irrespective of its electoral not do what Muslims are made to demand,Babri issue,Shah Bano fiasco,Dilips medal from pakistan,``

-- yes , these are division strategies. But the main culprits here are the Muslim masses who succumb like lambs to these wolfs. As long as we stand united in our ideals and our goals, and let the religious fanatics in our midst at bay, Shah Bano would not have happened. Babri is a different story though....That i agree is a sin by the Hindu fanatics...but i know that most of my hindu classmates were ashamed by that. A friend of mine, a hindu female, actually cried in class the next day ... And i promise that those tears were real.....How many countries can proudly claim that ..?

``What any noble administration should do not so much to appease them like a kid but WHAT IT CERTAINLY KNOWS IS IN THERE LONGTERM INTERESTS &GOOD FOR THEM RATHER THAN SHORT TERM CANDIES TO GET OVER THE ELECTIONS! ``

-- the indian politicians do that with not only the Muslims, but with the christians, the backward classes, the scheduled tribes, the forward classes, and what not... for them it is only a question of votes. As the electorate, we must choose the best breed. People deserve the government they get.

``What i am trying to say there isnt any significant number of Muslims particularly in Tamil Nadu worth even a mention in discussion in the Nixus of political dynamics peri & post partition.``

-- overall we are probably only 5-8 percent. but in certain pockets we are pretty strong in number.

`` I never heard of communal riots southern than maharashtra region.It is the northern region where not only muslims even now (After Partition)remain . ``

-- we have occasional riots in tamil nadu (trichy, coimbatore) , kerala (all over) , karnataka (shimoga, belgaum, bangalore, mangalore), AP (hyderabad) ....even though it is a shame

`` I dont think any body in sane mind can say to muslims to leave voluntarily at the whims of cricket match,or peaceful,demonstration of grievences under democratic country.But what the majority has been succesfully doing is psychologically subjugeting to feel GUILTY,untruly about historical events.

``

-- the way u put across ur views about India, it is a little wonder that hindus and christians of India have their suspicion on us....

iconoclast

RE: Studebaker & Iconoclast

Guys you both are Indians and muslims, arguing from 2 different points of view.

Studebaker is trying to say that he has been procecuted, because he has a muslim name. Now I understand that in a secular country like India, that should not be the case. However, authorities all over the world use what is called Profiling. Studebaker, you mentioned that you had been checked at the airport. That means you had been travelling. In recent bomb blasts the trend has been that the terrorists come from out of town, do their dirty deeds and then get out. As a majority of them tend to be muslim, and have muslim names, I would understand why the authorities would err on the side of caution. I would only request you as a fellow Indian, and a Hindu to not take that incident to heart. ``A few rotten apples spoil the lot``. This is the essence of Profiling used at airports and public places all over the world. From Chicago where if they see a green (Pakistani) passport, they open the luggage (happened to my Pakistani friend), to Singapore (where they will not stop their cabs for Indians/Pakistanis/browns), becuase we tend to not give good tips.

So please do not feel hurt by that or other similiar incident, now or in the future. They are merely a method of catching the bad apples.

To Iconoclast, I will say that for all the supporting pro-india points you have given, thanks. It is very encouraging to hear such things from fellow Indians who are not Hindus. Another point that you could add, it the fact that muslims in india (for better or for worse)enjoy special rights (the Muslim Civil Law) that is not given in other secular countries like the USA or UK. While I do not agree with this, I feel that it can be used to counter any charges of pseudo-secularism in India. Even though this is ironical, that it the only effective means of combatting the likes of Imam Bukhari and others.

I hope and pray that muslims in general learn to be tolerant of other religons. My neighbours are muslims, (in a good locality in New Delhi). Every year, we get delecious biryani and meat on Eid and we send sweets to them during Diwali. They greet us with the customary greeting on our religious occassions just like we wish them well on theirs.

That is the kind of society that flourishes.

finally the main enemy of the muslims (and Hindus) in India is ignorance arising from uneducation. Nothing else, but education can change the state of the muslims that are going down. And no one will inspire the muslims to get a decent, mordern education, but themselves, just like all the other communities in India.

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Studebaker:

With regard to the incident in the train. When I was about 15 years old, I was walking in Delhi towards the Republic Day parade. As I got closer to the parade, suddenly a policeman just pulled me by my collars and hurled me. There had been no provacation, words anything. He wanted me to take a different route and this was his way of telling me that. Bottom line, India`s insitutions and society are only half-developed. Many years ago, there was the case of Bhagalpur police in Bihar (or East UP, not sure) blinding prisoners by pouring acid in their eyes. The anti-Sikh riots are there for all to see. The question then becomes: how do we react to all this? Do we just get angry and turn our backs on Indian society or do we maintain our optimistic belief that we can improve things and reform ourselves. I think the reason why you find many of us arguing with you is that some of your statements are broadly anti-India and not limited to being anti the evils of India. If you can remain focussed on the evils and stop criticizing everything, you will find that I am on your side.

STUDEbaker

When it comes to the Police, in North India, wether it be New Delhi, or Lucknow or Bihar, they are the scum of the earth. They are uneducated, corrupt B * * * * * *S, who will use what ever excuse they can to extract some money from you.

In your case they used a muslim name. In my case, my friends and I were coming from a 9-12 hindi movie, and were stopped by the police at the many check posts in New Delhi.

They then tried to ask us for money, saying that we looked like hoodlums. They threatened to take us to the `Thana` (police station). It was because we had no problems with it that, he realised that we were not going to bend to his whims and fancies, and he let us go.

Now I understand that when you have your wife and kids with you, you cannot afford to stand up to them. But I told you about this incident just let you know that it is not a hindu/muslim thing when it comes to the corrupt police. They will use, relgion (as in your case), age (in my case) and what ever else that they can think of, just to get their hands on some money.

While on the subject of Hindu/muslims in INdia, I personally have many workers in my business who are muslims, and I have the best of relations with them. One of our drivers is a muslim, (he has been in the family since I was a kid). We call him, bhai, out of respect. He has worked in a Hindu family for his whole life.

I studied in a catholic school in delhi. There is a cathedral, a gurudwara a mosque and a temple, within .5 km radius cirle. I remember when going through that area I would join hands at each and every one of them. My unlce used to tell me that they are all places of worship, and that we should respect all of them.

It was only when I grew up, and came to the US that I got in touch with another breed of muslims. These were the rigid, hard core type, who could not respect other people`s religon, just because it was not Islamic. As I got to know them better I realised that a lot of these people had been brought up in the Gulf and pakistan where they were taught that Hindus were filthy pigs and that they were below contempt. It was a stark contrast from the type of mulims that I knew in Delhi.

However, I used my sense of judgement, to not categorise all the muslims in the one boat. I realised that living in a completely singular community (all muslims) had closed their minds to the fact that poeple can live together, inspite of having different beliefs.

A lot of mulims livning in India, are bought up with Hindus, Sikhs, Christians etc. The schools they go to normally do not dole out religious teachings (normally... there might be exceptions). So they grow up with an open mind. they tend to keep religon personal (as it should be) and do not try to impose their views on others.

Anyway, that taught me that to generalise a whole group of people based on the negative experience you had with some of them is not correct. However, that remains my opinion, which might be different from yours. But that is OK.. as in India we are free to have whatever opinion we want to have. ;-)

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