After the defeat

Re: ALL

Just saw this somewhere thought you all may be interested...



India hit plane in Pak territory?

WASHINGTON: America`s most secretive National Security Agency (NSA) satellite data have confirmed that Indian fighter planes shot down a Pakistani unarmed aircraft Tuesday within Pakistani territory resulting in the death of 16 people. A secret National Security Agency spy satellite transcript leaked to selected American and Canadian journalists confirmed earlier reports that Indian control tower ordered its fighters to shoot down the Pakistan plane and return to base quickly.

Transcript recorded from the scene also indicates that Indian fighters also violated Pakistani airspace during their operation. Sources in Washington said that NSA officials have in their possession pictures as well as tapes of conversation between Indian MIG 21 pilots and ground control station officials. Observers believe that if the US officials agree to release the transcript and satellite images, a lot of trouble could be created for the Indians. However US State Department officials appear reluctant to do so officially for obvious reasons.

Narain is correct, whatever hope we had for building a constructive relationship with Pakistan has gone up in smoke after the Kargil war. What shocked me and millions of other Indians were the mangled, tortured bodies of Lt. Saurabh Kalia and his men. Tortured for 22 days, death must have only been a relief for them. Revenge is everyone`s mind at the moment. I dont endorse what the IAF did to the Atlantique, but in the light of the incidents of the previous months, it doesnt seem really out of place. The IAF only gave the PAF a taste of it`s own medicine. Frankly, it serves them just right.

Re: Narain.

I agree, pakistan was defenitely involved in something in that sector. but that does not warrant firing upon an unarmed aircraft. not without a warning shot. the aircraft can be force landed in indian territory. the entire warning , and other verbal communications between the two aircrafts could have been recorded and released to the media if things had been done properly. but it was a case of panic over reaction . (but after the mig affairs, the over reaction is to an extent understandable - but it was obviously panic nevertheless). i can believe that the pak navy was so stupid to send reconnaisance missions so close to the border and the indian air force was so much on a live wire. imagine a nuclear episode based on a similar reaction ?

rishi

Re: Ferozk

Feroz, sorry i dont share your optimism as far as the sub continent is concerned. As a set of people we are the most racist, steeped in prejudices and living neck to neck. Adding to this the ever shrinking economic pie, social unrest, failure of law and order only makes the going as much tougher. The paramount effect is again caused by our respective religions. Hinduism which treats sections of its own members as dirt and Islam which treats its women and all other religions as even worse. These two religions in their present (and past) forms are the most perverse and no one in their right minds would kill to defend these religions. india`s bullying attitude, and pakistan`s fascist religious nature (of calling allah for goddamn everything) will only complicate things further. the truth is we are a nation of sinners.

the only reason i would remain a hindu is because atleast i can say this about my religion and walk alive.

for once we should listen to the wise chinese. ``all outstanding issues between the two nations should be put into a backburner for a generation wiser than ours to decide upon. `` -- but then will we do that ?

- Rishi

RE: Ferozk

I am not trying to justify the indian action at all. i do not have the facts to do that. All that i am trying to do is explain why India could have done what it did. Post Kargil all feelings of reconciliation towards pakistan (which incidentally were running pretty strong at one point) have dried out, and patience with it is running very low. The pakistanis shot down one of our planes when it only slightly (if at all) transgressed their airspace in Kargil, and I think this was an admittedly petty, but effective way of getting back at them from an Indian perspective. And, of course, after having grossly violated all norms in Kargil, Indians feel that Pakistan should not cry too much if it gets a taste of its own medicine.

What is happening is very sad. At the beginning of this year I had felt that peace was round the corner, that it was inevitable. Unfortunately, kargil has set it back by atleast a decade. Worse still, from india`s point of view, we offered peace, and were given Kargil in return. Now if pakistan wants peace, they will have to come to us, and sue for peace on our terms. Given the power structure that exists in your country, this is very unlikely. So where do we go from here?

The most unfortunate part is that we all realize what we lost because of Kargil, yet can anybody explain what anyone gained from it?

-narain

India hit plane in Pakistani territory, confirms NSA Satellite

PPA Exclusive

WASHINGTON (PPA) - America`s most secretive National Security Agency (NSA) satellite data have confirmed that Indian fighter planes shot down a Pakistani unarmed aircraft on Tuesday within Pakistani territory resulting in the death of 16 people. A secret National Security Agency spy satellite transcript leaked to selected American and Canadian journalists confirmed earlier reports that Indian control tower ordered its fighters to shoot down the Pakistan plane and return to base quickly. *________________________________________________ *

This was nothing but a cowardly act, that goes against all traditions of military aviation chivalry.

The Navy aircraft was an unarmed airplane with no escorts. Shooting it down was about as difficult as shooting down an airliner. It was within Pakistani airspace.

Pakistani and Indian radars can see into each others border areas, as it is. Why would Pakistan need to fly a Navy plane to do that? If the plane was doing reconnaisance, it would not be flying at 7000 ft., and most of all there would be Pakistani escort planes ready to protect it. The Indian migs that took off were visible to the Pakistani ground radar. This happens regularly. Pakistanis fighters taking off near the border are monitored by the Indian radar, and vice versa. The fact that the Pakistan did not launch any escorts when they detected the Indian migs taking off indicates that the Navy plane was on a routine mission.

As far as the Mig pilot acting in haste. I do not agree. Mig 21s only have aiming radars. They do not have targeting radars. That means the ground controller gets them into position, to fire a missile. The Mig pilot on his own could not have made the decision to shot down the airplane, so close to the border. The ground controller must have receive approval from higher ups.

Shooting down a fighter in another country`s territory is a crime. Shooting down an unarmed airplane (even in owns own territory) is shameful, and cowardly.

Re: narain # 81

It will be some time before we know just what happened. On the other hand, we may never know what happened given the state of an undeclared war, which exists between the two neighbors.

The Indian charges that the PN Atlantique was on an intelligence gathering mission is a non sequiter, because the aircraft is not the best platform for an ELINT mission. Granted it has the capability to track Indian radar signitures and IAF operational routine, but it can do that from a safe distence without flying to within 10kms of the border. As to prior notification, remember both air forces are operating out of their forward bases and have been doing so for the last few months. Hence, the IAF already was aware of the operational routine of PAF CAPs, because it had been keeping tabs on PAF or PN aircraft, which were flying close to the border.

Yes, you are correct to say that given your intelligence failures in Kargil to detect Pakistani intentions, India was being wary of Pakistani intentions and rightly so. The question I would like answered is why an IAF MiG would fire at an unarmed PN aircraft without any prior warnings and that it would fire, after ingressing into Pakistani airspace?

Concerning Indian claims of prior violations, the question is why did the IAF engage and destroy this particular aircraft and not any other PAF fighters, which might have come closer than 10kms to the border? Are the Indians suggesting that this PN aircraft was responsible for all prior violations of Indian airspace? Could it be that this aircraft made a better and a safer target for IAF MiGs than risk ``dancing`` with a PAF fighter CAP?

Yes, the Indians did send a message to Pakistan and it was that in such cases, the engaging aircraft would have an authority for ``weapons free``. Narain, the next time an IAF aircraft transgresses into Pakistani airspace, it will be shot down without any warnings and incidently, the Indians actions in this matter have done more to violate the intent of 1991 agreement than any air violation could ever hope to!

All the Indians have done is merely stir the hornets nest, so please do not be suprised when your aircraft are targeted and shot at by Pakistan.

RE: Ferozk

I am not so sure that the downing of the plane was accidental. There is more to this then meets the eye. First of all, what was the plane doing so close to the border? There is a 1991 agreement between our two nations not to let fixed wing planes get closer than 10 km from the border without prior information to the other party about its intentions. There is no doubt that this agreement was violated. Given the nature of the aircraft, it is clear too that it was spying. India has claimed prior violations of its airspace. This was done even before this particular craft was brought down. Therefore, I tend to believe that these alleged cases were not premeditated lies, concocted for the purpose of justifying the shooting. All this leads me to believe that the pakistani`s are involved in something in that sector: what, I don`t know, but something for sure. Given our kargil experience, we cannot afford to be caught with our pants down, nor can we allow the pakistan army to continue with whatever activity it is planning. The downing was, I believe, a signal to the pakistanis not to try whatever they have been up to, since india is wise to it.

It is of course sad that 16 people had to lose their lives in this sorry incident. But my sorrow is greatly diminished when i think of the hundreds that had to lose their lives in Kargil. Or how pakistani newspapers gloat when reporting on Indian army fatalities. Unfortunately in this case, it is the pakistani war pigeons which are coming home to roost.

-narain

Re: goyal

I totally agree with your suggestion!

Re: Rishi

I think you are right about the IAF pilot having a panic attack, because this is the only explanation which makes sense. It is really unfortunate that the cover up has already began and like you mentioned, this act of stupidity will be repeated again in the future and no one will ever know the truth of what really happened.

What really discourages me about this episode is the ``payback`` syndrome and the loss of further lives, which will only end up perpetuating the cycle of hate between the two nations. Rishi, enough is enough and this madness has to stop and the common people of India and Pakistan have to re-learn how to live in peace with each other. It is not impossible to do so, because my dad used to tell me that his neighbors in Agra were Hindus and the friends of his childhood were Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs and Christians! It can be done. All it requires is a will to make it into a reality.

Re: Najib # 79

Najib, congratulations, from your post it seems that you have much in common with OMAR1974, because you also do not know when to keep your mouth shut! The kind of sentiments, which you were expressing is the very reason why this circle of hatred continues, because it is words like yours, which end up pouring gasoline over the fire. Najib, before you gleefully stroke up the fires of nationalism and revanche, just remember that road, which you are advocating and undertaking will one day end in the complete incineration of over a billion people.

Najib, I would listen to what Rishi is suggesting, because if the IAF pilot was a seasoned professional, he would have closely followed the Rules of Engagement (RoE) and each PAF and IAF pilot is duty bound to follow those RoEs, because they know just what will happen if they go around shooting opposing planes out of the sky!

There are three steps, which must be followed before ``splashing`` an intruding aircraft on both sides of the border. First, the intruding aircraft must be asked to leave and escorted to the border. Second; failing that order, PAF or IAF fighter fires a couple of cannon shells across the path of the intruding aircraft. Third, when that fails, the intruder is locked on with a missile so that his threat detection systems imply hostile intentions and lastly, when all the warnings have gone unheeded, the aircraft is fired upon, but ONLY after all possible warnings have been ignored.

It would seem that in this case, the IAF pilot was a rookie and he simply over reacted. As to your contentions of kicking butt, the next time an IAF aircraft intrudes into Pakistani air space, it will fired on without any warnings. Najib, if I were you,I would tamper my sense of national pride, because all the Indians have done is merely raise the stakes in the next potential crisis. With both sides having itchy fingers on the triggers, the chances of accidental war happening have just gone up significantly.

Najib, what we need on the sub-continent is cool heads and sane logic prevailing over emotionally charged rhetoric and calling each other names, no matter how emotionally satisfying, will not avert the specter of nuclear annihilation facing both India and Pakistan!

Yeah, we have kicked butt again! A Paki plane, flying in Indian airspace and acting hostile, was shot down!

It appears that an angered India wants to make sure that the Pakis pay for their incredibly silly misadventure in Kargil. Most Pakistanis often like to compare Pakistan with India, forgetting that India is the world`s second-largest nation, a country with immense resources. Promoting terrorism was foolhardy enough, but by instigating the Kargil attack, the Pakis woke up a sleeping giant.

And the Giant is very angry. Well, Pakis, brace yourselves for more action! India is huge. And now, it`s also angry!! We will kick butt!!!

Our current and future maneouvers will keep the Paki military establishment engaged and will force Pakistan to CONTINUE spending 85% of its resources on defense. This will push Pakistan further into jahannum!

An advice to Pakistanis: Let go of all malice. Let`s try and live in peace. But that can happen only if you, the Pakis, cease to extend moral or immoral support to Islamic terrorists in Afghanistan or elsewhere.

Feroz,

w.r.t to your news clipping on Sir creek/Kori creek dispute --

Generals and politicians from both counteries should be brought together in a neutral playground and allowed to kick each other to their satisfaction. That will allow common people to live their life with burden of a war.

Prepare for fire works on Independence Day!
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India Shoots Down Pakistani Surveillance Aircraft; 16 People Killed

From the New York Times

August 10, 1999

KARACHI, Pakistan -- Indian fighter planes shot down a Pakistani surveillance aircraft on Tuesday. Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz said 16 servicemen were killed.

Both of the nuclear-armed neighbors claimed the plane was shot down in their territory.

The French-built Atlantic-I aircraft was on a training mission when it was shot down near a small coastal town, Aziz said. ``Pakistan reserves the right to make an appropriate response in self-defense,`` he said.

Aziz said wreckage of the aircraft was found a mile inside Pakistani territory.

India, however, said the aircraft was shot down after intruding into Indian airspace and failing to respond to warnings.

The crash came a few weeks after India and Pakistan came to the brink of another war over disputed Kashmir. They have fought three previous wars since gaining independence from Britain in 1947, two over Kashmir.

Aziz described the attack as a violation of Pakistani airspace, calling it a ``blatant and unprovoked act of military aggression against an unarmed aircraft.`.

Yet an Indian air force statement said its planes scrambled to intercept the plane after it was detected by radar on the ground. Air force officials said on condition of anonymity that the Pakistani plane was in Indian airspace for 15 minutes.

The jet fighters signaled that the plane should land at an Indian air base, but the Pakistani pilot ``acted in a hostile manner`` by turning his aircraft toward the Indian jet, the statement said.

The MiG-21 opened fire, hitting the Pakistani plane in the right engine, the statement said. Indian helicopters found the wreckage a mile south of the Pakistani border, near Kori Creek in the Rann of Kutch, a desert in Gujarat state. India had no immediate information on casualties.

Also on Tuesday, Pakistan ordered the expulsion of Indian diplomat Madan Mohan Jetly because he allegedly carried out activities incompatible with his official status. No other details were given, but Foreign Ministry officials said his expulsion was not related to the plane crash.

The Atlantic I is a twin-engine, propeller-driven plane used by naval forces in Europe and Pakistan for aerial reconnaissance, anti-submarine operations and to intercept radio signals. The 100-foot-long plane is similar in appearance to a cargo plane, but with a long, tapering tail section that holds special antennas and looks similar to the U.S. Navy`s P-3 Orion. Its standard crew is 12.

India said Pakistan routinely violates Indian airspace in that area, and claimed eight intrusions from May to July.

This year, India fought an 11-week undeclared war with what it described as Pakistani army troops in Indian-held territory.

Pakistan denied its soldiers were involved and said all the fighters were Kashmiri militants.

Re: UR & Feroz

wasn`t there such a simulation or an exercise where IAF, Isareli Air executed to plan like that somewhere in the septemeber of mid eighties...or was that just a rumor...?

but Feroze, I gotta go with UR`s strategy. Get a a bunch of eagles, put em up in India. Come for a quick strike over the lab, while creating some ground and/or some air distraction, and get out quick, that should be too hard...?

so flying the commercial corridors, jamming UAE, getting turkey in, would be too many variables...

met a coursemate yesterday, he is on deputation in Dubai...:) had a funny thing to tell me, said, something like, You have to get Intelligence Clearance to get a freak`n email account...:)

Re: UR #70

UR writes: ``...It is not a coincidence that the Pakistan military has been able to hold its own against an Indian army with resources ten times those of Pakistan..``

What nonsense! Considering all those past defeats (and the recent one in Kargil), nothing could be farther from the truth. And if the Pakistani military has been able to increase its effectiveness (from crappy to so-so) over the past several years, it is only because Pakistan spends 85% of its budget on military and foreign-debt servicing. That leaves nothing for `supporting institutions and infrastructure` that decide the outcome of a war.

UR also added: ``...India has not been able to do the same against China...``

Again, a very ill-informed assumption. India has complete military parity with China. The only difference is that the Chinese are more aggressive. Indeed, after realizing that India is no longer ruled by `doves` like Nehru (who dreamed of a non-violent panchsheel abiding world), and accepting that the world`s second-largest country is now on a military parity, the Chinese are taking care not to antagonize India. Look at how they recently took care not to anger the Indians during the Kargil conflict.

Feroze:

Its good to see that someone shares my interests. Perhaps you should write an article, with your initial plan of attack. Let the readers critique it. Then based on the critiques, rewrite a final plan. That way you will get input from other people, besides myself.

You might want to keep a few things in mind. What you are trying to plan has been discussed down to the minutest details by Pakistan`s military planners, starting from the cadet at the academy to the generals in the high command, for over fifteen years. It has been the topic of many a thesis in the varioius Pakistani defence colleges. PAF`s military excercises are built around this. Pilots have spent their careers flying CAP missions around Kahuta. I know many of them. They probably have the bends in the valleys, and the names of the smallest streets leading to Kahuta memorized. There are stories in the military (probably false) of the army air defence major getting sacked, who refused to fire on a PIA fokker, which flew too low over Kahuta. So you need to keep all these things in mind when planning your attack. Did you see how quickly the Indian Mig was shot down when it entered into Pakistan airspace? That wasn`t a lucky shot.

In brief, this is all that the Pakistan military does during peace time. So the information I am giving you is based on discussing and reading this vast reservoir of knowledge, with different people in the PAF, and army. Having spent time in the PAF, I know they are not very good at management and administration; however they are extremely good at handling what you are trying to plan.

Good luck. You`ll need it :) I think you need input and ideas from other people besides myself. So how about writing out the initial plan.

Re: UR

Points well taken and I think that an article would be a good idea on the topic. UR, this is becoming an additiction, because I would really like to see if this is workable and if nothing else, this excerise is forcing me to develop a better understanding of Pakistan`s air defense network, which has been quite illuminating!

I think, at the present, I am becoming so focused on this that I seem to be missing the graphic for the pixel ! I am going to take some time away from this and re-think my options.