After the defeat

I believe that this article in Frontline is certainly worth a look. Aijaz Ahmad would be a
great addition to CHOWK.

http://www.the-hindu.com/fline/fl1615/16150180.htm

Ras

re: OMAR1974

Now that I am convinced you are clinically insane, I have started empathizing with your situation. You seem to have been raised on a diet of victimization theories, persecution complexes and sort of have a siege mentality (of the tiger sanctuary fame, Muslim in India or Mohajir in Pakistan as you had articulated once many moons ago). I sincerely feel you should seek out some medical help in this regard. `cause the world is a very beatiful place and isn`t just a battlefield where EVERYBODY is against you, as you seem to have been led to believe.

I would love to be of any assistance you in this matter. Feel free to contact me at

RanaRansher@TIGER_HILL.COM

:-)
regards

Nowadays when one visits the interact section on Indo-Pak Chowk articles one senses the presence of RAW, whose viewpoint is effectively and nauseatingly being projected into cyberspace.

All the tired old nonsense about Pakistan is being trotted out. To make matters worse, a certain unnamed intellectual has now started to delve into the realm of mythical conjuecture with little basis in documented fact or proofs to support his wild notions about American threats to Pakistan. I frankly doubt Gen.Z made any threats. And if he did, they will not be repeated

once the range of Paki missiles is extended to cover the Eastern Mediterranean, and ofcourse warhead designs are properly tested. No, the carrot will be used, the stick rendered ridiculous by the regional realities.

Let me join you in denouncing `the enshrining of exclusiveness` in the constitution and psyche of the Pakistani people who voted a woman (albeit foolishly) into power against the Talibani principles

Let me also denounce `enshrining of exclusiveness` in one of the leading political parties of India

Let me denounce `enshrining inhuman violence` in Indian policy towards even the deadliest of the terrorists

Let me denounce the Indian position of not seeking an international mediation on issue of Kashmir. In its absence India is only as right as it claims and so is Pakistan.

Let me denounce all terrorism by anyone against innocent people

Let me denounce the hopes of death and destruction of any nation

Let me denounce keeping scores of muslim/hindu/indian/chinees victories and defeats in wars

Let me hope that Pakistan would be a prosperous secular state of muslim majority that would be the Antithesis of Taliban regime. This I think was in the minds of founders of pakistan who perceived an economic disadvantage for the muslim population in the new political order.

Let me hope that India will be an economic super power and a model of democracy and cultural and religious tolerance as it successfully defeats the various muslim, hindu and nationalist mullahs.

Taliban and Sharia go hand in hand. Those who want Talebanic Islam are the same people who want Sharia. Pakistan by its own blatant and irresponsible admittance is an `Islamic republic`. In `enshrining` exclusiveness in the constitution of that country, how noble, an exclusiveness founded upon inequality and the pretext that humans of divergent religions cannot coexist, the creators of Pakistan looked only far enough to see their own political security, with no farsightedness into the future. Now, after only 50 years, Jinnah`s dream continues to be only that, an utopian fantasy that stands thoroughly discredited in the eyes of any learned person. Even as the evidence that the very foundations of Pakistan are beginning to buckle emerge, the hawkish forces, the ones who are always last to see things the way they are (Omar Mirza is a good example!), are making one last ditch stand at salvaging whatever is left of this flawed excuse of a nation. The world and India disapproved the treachery with which the Mianji shook hands with Vajpayeeji on one side and approved his army to cross the LoC on the other. Did you see how he shunted from world capital to capital, but continued to be rebuffed even by supposedly loyal bedfellows. Well the Mianji learned his lessons the hard way. All his masters told him, ``Bad doggy, no bone for you``.

For India this has been a case of twice bitten, yet to be shy. `Hindi-Chini-Bhai-Bhai` was the first and the bus trip was the second. The Indian leaders must refrain from such open displays of sincerity and goodwill and let the other party sweat it out the next time around. Vajpayeeji was singing urdu poetry while the Paki troops were occupying the strategic peaks. This should never happen again. This was again a situation where the leadership was caught napping. George Fernandez should resign accepting responsibility.

Thanks to the quick planning and retaliation of the Indian forces both militarily and diplomatically, the tide was soon turned and the Pakis had to withdraw. The Paki propoganda which is usually pretty good, this time fumbled, because the story was too hard to play with. The Mujahideen are the biggest joke in all this. The Mujahideen are paid mercenaries who are mostly residuals of the Afghan conflict. Their numbers are mounting with fresh recruitment among unemployed young men who have been brainwashed in the madrasas. These excuse-for-a-soldier types are the mainstay of the Talebanic forces. The confidence they gained in driving out the Soviets has empowered them to take on other assignments. Unfortunately, the mullahs instructing them left out the part in the Afghan victory story where superior weapons were made available to them by Uncle Sam. There is no Uncle Sam to give them such weapons ever again, therefore, if these `holy warriors` -interesting oxymoron, were to face a well trained, conventional army like the Indian army, I can assure you they will be counted out in the first round. It was the Pak army regulars who occupied the peaks, no Mujahideen. Believe me, the Paki generals know better than to depend on half trained nitwits to do the job of occupying strategic peaks. This is one of the reasons why the `Mujahideen occupying peaks` story did not fly.

Finally, this has been a complete and sweet victory for India. That it should come at this juncture is even more welcome because things were reaching a point where Pakistan was getting to be more than an irritant. The ISI, which planned this whole operation, along with the military, is now seen as an organization of bungling fools. Now, in the name of Islam, the `holy warriors` are involved in cowardly acts of violence against innocent people all over India. These young men, brainwashed in the madrasas and proclaimed `Shahids` for laying down their lives, are being wasted. The Pak propoganda that hundreds of civilians in Kashmir are being raped and killed has been swallowed whole by their populace and even the administration has begun to believe their own lies. When the Indian army is dealing with terrorist attacks and guerilla type attacks, it has no choice but to come down strong on such terrorists. The terrorists are the ones to blame for the Indian army taking such a tough stance in Kashmir.

Omar Mirza was claiming that Pakistan was going to bleed India bone dry. Wishful thinking I should say. Pakistan needs to exist as a nation in order for that to happen right? But, Pakistan is a boat fast sinking. Soon the Talebanic forces who have again pledged support for Osama Bin Laden will overrun Pakistan and take that country back to the Bedouin times of a 1400 years ago. The unkempt, smelly, mullahs who pray 5 times a day, will force the people of Pakistan to follow their dictates. The already poor economy will collapse and there will be complete breakdown. This is the direction in which Pakistan is heading. The Indian rulers know this and are doing their best to hasten such a process in Pakistan. How many times do we have to humiliate Pakistan in order for it to understand - `48, `65, `71, `84 and now `99.

The score stands at 5-0 for India.

Re: Ibne Sina

Yes, I would accept your rationale that Osama Bin Laden is the fulcrum, upon which this whole thing seem to hinge on. If you read the papers, Saudi Arabia has been supporting Pakistan, in wake of Kargil, for a final solution to the Kashmiri problem. I have to wonder what they will they ask in return and if the United States and the Saudis have reached an agreement on Bin Laden, a Saudi national, Pakistan has to agree to it. Simply, because Pakistan can not afford to lose Saudi money and American okays for its IMF loans.

Another tranche of the IMF loan has been delayed yet again. If you read the final print, Pakistan depends on the goodwill and blessings of its donars to survive and it does not, in any sense, consitutes, in real terms, the prospect that it is a sovereign nation anymore. Once you have to depend on others and have to ask for their permission to do things, you are not a sovereign nation.

It would be really educational to learn just what happened in Washington and it would not suprise me if, the moderate pro-west oriented half of, the Pakistani military is willing to foresake Bin Laden for its own interests.

Remember, the most recent Defense Authorization Bill, which includes the Sam Brownback Amendment lifting all sanctions on both India and Pakistan is still collecting dust in Senator Trent Lott`s office. Lott`s office still has not decided a date for debating it on the Senate floor and passing it. Under the Brownback amendment, military sales and training of personnels with Pakistan will be resumed and it will be business as ususal.

This could be another irritant within the Pakistani Army itself and there is going to a ``debate`` on this issue and we know that the present COAS is for radicalism, because he was deeply involved as a Special Services Group officer in the covert war in Afghanistan, where he seem to have been in contact with the more extreme groups. One has to wonder how the Sandhurst educated and the American trained Pakistani officers are reacting to their Urdu speaking collegues and their adherences to the policies of Talibanization of the Pakistani Army.

I think there is more to this Pakistani masala than meets the eye. Even as we speak, the conflict in Kargil seems to simmer on. Does that mean there is a difference of opinion in the Army leadership; between those who favor the Washington ``understanding`` and those who do not? Does this imply that there are two different camps of thought on the Kargil issue inside the Pakistani Army and they are not seeing eye to eye with each other?

Was this the real reason that Anthony Zinni, the American Marine Corps General in charge of Central Command, came to Pakistan? Did Zinni came to Pakistan to tell COAS that the Americans are ``concerned`` about this ``difference of opinion`` in the Pakistani Army about Kargil? If the Americans were concerned enough to send their top military man in the region to Pakistan,that would suggest two things.

One; the final control of Pakistani nuclear weapons rests with Pakistani Army and not with the Nawaz Sharif, as Sharif seems to claim.

Two; the military itself is divided and there is no sure way of forecasting who will end up with the nuclear weapons in the final run. The Americans may have send Zinni to tell COAS that the Americans might tolerate Pakistani Army`s ``in-house troubles`` and may turn a blind eye to it, but they will not stand aside if those weapons fall into the hands of pro-Taliban elements of the Pakistani Army.

Hence, COAS told Nawaz Sharif to go to Washington to ask the Americans to ``stand down`` and not to strike Pakistani nuclear facilities and in return, he would deal with the Army itself. It is safe to conclude that when Zinni came to Pakitan, he must have shown COAS satellite pictures and told him to either be ``reasonable`` or the Americans would take the matters into their own hands. The Americans have means to do so, two aircraft carriers in Persian Gulf and one in the Arabian Sea enforcing the blockade of Iraq and those American fighter aircraft could easily strike targets in Pakistan if ordered to do so, and Zinni must have told COAS enough to scare him into putting Nawaz Sahrif on a ``red eye`` flight to Washington.

The continued fighting in Kargil would suggest that there seems to a sub-terra difference between the pro-Taliban elements of the Army itself; the extermists and the moderates and COAS`s position is being undermined by certain elements, who see him as a traitor for acceding to American demands and are refusing his orders to disengage from the Kargil operation.

This would seem to give the more moderate pro-west Pakistani officers a chance to bid for the top position, by suggesting that COAS take an early retirement. If that happens, Mian Nawaz Sharif might finally end up using that apartment of his in London and might be doing the local TV talk shows with Benazir Bhutto in England!

It is going to be one long, hot summer and I am not refering about the weather!

An insect falls into a mug of beer....

Englishman : Throws his mug away and walks out

American : Takes the insect out and drinks the beer

Chinese : Eats the insect and throws the beer away

Indian : Sells the beer to the American and insect to the

Chinese and gets a new mug of beer..

Pakistani : Accuses the Indian for throwing insect into his

beer. Relates the issue to Kashmir. Asks the Chinese for Military aid.

Takes a loan from the American to buy one more mug of beer.

Ibne Sina,

It is an interesting article. Perhaps following articles will also be in context. http://www.dawn.com/daily/19990721/fea.htm story of tapes ``M. Ziauddin``

http://www.dawn.com/daily/19990721/op.htm On the edge of the precipice by M.P.Bhandara

``It is a little disturbing to see that you want to do a `Punjab` on it. What does that mean? Setting up a puppet government? Denying people their rights? Have people live in fear of being picked up for voicing their political opinion?``

No, actually I was talking about the Indian side of the Punjab : )

What I meant was that in Punjab, after a decade of strife and terrorism we could restore law and order, democracy and sanity. The hurt of those times is still raw maybe, but we are dealing with it. Similarly peace will be restored in Kashmir, despite the best efforts of pakistan.

And yeah, sure you didn`t send troops into Kashmir in 1948, exactly like it was ``just the mujahideen`` fighting in Kargil in 1997. If that fig leaf keeps you happy, put it on by all means!

Yes, India and pakistan have a lot of mistrust between them. That was why the Lahore agreement was so important. A new start to build a new relationship. But the pakistani response to that gesture has been unequivocal and negative. And guess what? India can do without better relations with pakistan. It is an irritant, but it is bearable. In any case, it seems now that it is tough to separate when you are being friendly and when you are acting hostile.

Believe it or not, I was once an ardent proponent of the peace process. I still recognize its inevitability, but only grudgingly.

-narain

RE: Omar and History lessons

Firstly, how did you assume that the basis of partition was religion? It was a section (only a small section) of muslims which wanted a separate state and they got it. I do not think that you have any right to claim that all muslims wanted it.

Secondly, the basis of the state of India is not the religion of its majority (ie, the Hindus). India is based on the principles of secularism, democracy and the rule of law. Therefore it does not make sense to say that only all Hindu majority princely states should have come to India and all muslim majority states should have gone to pakistan, and then dignify this bigotry by calling it ``logic and fair play``.

Thirdly, India never made any attempt to take over Kashmir prior to the pakistanis attacking it. We were content to let it be independent. Now if you tried to grab it and couldn`t, why do you blame India for catching what you dropped in your haste? Yeh to wohi baat ho gayi, ulta chor kotwal to datey.

And as I said before, normalcy will come to Kashmir, and sooner rather than later now that pakistan has thoroughly discredited itself and the mujahideen before the eyes of the world. As it is Democracy and the rule of law are very good fixes for all kinds of problems. Maybe you too ought to try it sometime?

-narain

1) In 1948 Pakistan did NOT send in troops to occupy Kasmir. Rather it was an insurgency led by Afghan and Pakhtoon bands- though endorsed by the Pakistani government. The Pakistani Army chief of staff was British- and upon engagement of the armed bands with the Indian Army refused to send in any Pakistani troops.

2)What empirical data do you have to suggest that Kashmiris want to stay with India? A 90% Muslim population can hardly bring one to say the Kashmir cause is independant of the Muslim cause. Such a concept is hard for you to fathom because India is in essence a secular state united more by polity than religious dogma. Kashmir has a history of puppet governments- be they muslim. The present Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah is an excellent example.

3) Please tell me which report from Amnesty International narrates instances of Kashmiri Mujahideen massacring Kashmiri Hindus. But of course, you yourself claim that these Mujahideen are semi-organized terrorists- so perhaps this behavior can be justified within your realm of logic. But please try explaining or justifying gross human rights violations carried out by Indian troops, which are a part of a formal civil setup in India.

I do not doubt for a second that India will ever give up Kashmir. Fighting over it is not the solution. It is a little disturbing to see that you want to do a `Punjab` on it. What does that mean? Setting up a puppet government? Denying people their rights? Have people live in fear of being picked up for voicing their political opinion?

As I mentioned earlier- mistrust and vindictiveness has become such a part of our psyche that I feel the problem has to be tackled at a more social level. Reagrdless of what I feel should happen with Kashmir, I ascede that it will never become a part of Pakistan. Why not make the LOC a permanent boundary? reason- mistrust.

In the 1960`s Pakistan effectively gave up river Satloj as part of the Indus Water Treaty. That is essence was supposed to be a confidence building measure. People felt that perhaps a small sacrifice may allow for peace. Didn`t work.

In 1971 India attacked Pakistan in an attempt to `liberate` east Pakistan. Though I realize that East Paksitan was inevitably going to separate, India`s steps did not help much in the way of improving relations.

In 1984, India attacked along the border area of Siachin- endangering Pakistans access to the Karakoram highway.

In 1999 Pakistan attacks Kargil in a bid to cut off the high running through Leh.

We have a history of mistrust. Our issues are much deeper than who gets kashmir and who doesn`t.

Re: Nameless

Please visit the BJP web site (www.bjp.org) especially their ``philosphy`` section. You honestly expect me to believe that they do not discriminate against Islam. Their is an essay entitled ``Semitic monotheism- the root of intolerance in India`` which makes very interesting reading. Not to mention their stance on the Babri Mosque.

re: asfand (#19)

I think the verse actually goes as:

yeh qazi-e taqdeer ka fatwa hai azal say

hay jurm-e-zaifi ki saza marg-e-mufajaat

Qibla app nay to sher ki tang hi tor dali :)

I have a comment here. People usually equate the word ``zaifi`` only with physical weakness and use this to justify military spending. The word means only weakness, and even in this context means only weakness. It can be physical, mental, spritual, economic, etc. etc.

So if we re-read this verse with only weakness, then surely, mental weakness or economic weakness or moral weakness, will also yield the same result. These are the weaknesses that Pakistan has , and believing this couplet, would lead to a permanent death.

Ref: Iqbal Kasim #21

``They will do to us what Reagan did to the Soviet Union- bankrupt us.``

Your observation is absolutely correct. People like OMAR1974 do not have any concept of RELATIVE economic numbers. It happens when one is consumed in his own righteousness. Indian economy can easily bear the numbers he has mentioned - although I would prefer every penny spent in primary education and creating better living environment. I wonder if OMAR (or people like him) knows that millions of dollars have been voluntarily contributed to Army welfare and Prime Minister`s relief funds during last 3 months. In fact I believe that this conflict has created an awareness about lack in defense preparedness just like 1962 debacle when Indian/Tibet border became active. India`s defense budget had been consistently falling during last 10 years. Now there will be big increase and Pakistan will be obliged to match it that it can not do.

`` My relatives in India tell me that while the BJP is not too Muslim friendly they have not had any riots.``

BJP record is better then that. BJP organized Shia/Sunni understanding and there were no riots last year on Muharram in Kanpur/Lukhnow areas in UP. In fact there is big miss understanding about BJP. It is by no means a radical Hindu party. It is like US Republicans who have very small extremist Christian elements. Even those elements are not physically violent. They are conservative and NATIONALIST.

`` We can`t beat India and so must….``

On this point I disagree. I suggest that strategic decisions should not be based on fear or negative thoughts but on the current state of the human evolution. Situation today is lot different then 7th century. Today mixing of religion and politics is a NO NO and SECULARISM is the only way.

How I wish pakistanis could have reacted to the kargil differently. Learn it from India, india lost very badly to china, no body cringed about it at that time, we realised that india is no match for china, we ignored it, went along to create a place for ourself under the sun in the last 37 years after the defeat. There was no govt change after the defeat, indi-chini bhai bhai, we realised was a mistake, Krishna menon, the defence Minister resigned, a few books `the himalayan blunder ` sold a few copies. When india exploded a few bombs and stated that china is the major threat, chinese objected, they said they are a friendly country and we reminded them of the indi-chini bhai bhai.

My be the right thing for pakistan to do is to forget about india, forget about kashmir, and concentrate on the pressing problems.

It is pathetyic to see pakistan running and trusing the US a country which took the money and did not deliver the F16s. It must have been a desperate act and I am sure pakistan will continue to pay for its surrender to the US, the mujahideen, the terrorism and the talibans which have wide spread support in pakistan will have to contained as the price for the `persona` interst.

I am ashamed that a south asian country had to accept the rulings of another white man after 50 years of formally ending the colonisation.

No doubt another low point in Pakistan-India
relations but still not rock bottom.
Hardly a military defeat but certainly a diplomatic one, or so it seems.
Now I remember why I was so concerned at Jahangir
Karamat`s sudden departure (last year?).
But Pakistanis are survivors by nature. There
will be another day to fight.
Win or lose, the LOC still appears to be unacceptable as an international border. So
just maybe Nawaz has not succeeded after all.

Ras