Kargil and the Myth of Losing the Media War

Hello Ali:

The question is not what India IS - the question is what India SHOULD BE? Even now, in India the terms of the debate are completely different from Pakistan. Believe me, the BJP would LOSE votes if it called itself the Hindu Janta Party. It is not tenable in India that a party with the label Hindu Party could come to power in hte manner in which a party called the Muslim League has come to power in Pakistan. A Hindu Janta Party would get sidelined because almost ALL Indians do not believe in a religion based country. The BJP supporters believe, incorrectly in my opinion, that Hindus have suffered at the hands of secularism and they want Hinduism expressed as a matter of democratic expression. They also support Babri Masjid destruction on the grounds of it being based on the sites of a temple. I disagree with both these positions but it is important to keep in mind what the terms of the debate are: nobody of any consequence, not even the BJP, is seeking a Hindu rashtra. Some do see a supression of Hinduism which I believe is fallacious and wrong. They want to reverse this perceived suppression. This has dangerous connotations but if succesful, it will still not bring India to where Pakistan already is.

RE: ZZ

Hindu Muslim Roiting in India.

Indian government never prints the names of those killed or injured in roiting. Muslims are always killed and their properties looted in disproportionately large numbers. ZZ, only pro-BJP hate mongers think otherwise.

But it seems that terrorist tactics by Indian muslims like bombay bomb blasts can tip the balance a bit. Otherwise, they don`t stand a chance.

Even prior to partition, muslims almost always got beaten up although they had a fighting chance. 80 hindus were killed by Sh. Mujibur Rehman and his goons in Nawakhali. He was a rising Indian Muslim League star then. Mr. Ghandhi cried himself hoarse. Simultaneously, upto 800 villages were cleansed of Muslims in Bhagalpur. Not a whimper from Bapu though.

ZZ, please stop confusing Kashmir with India. What is happening in Kashmir (atrocities by forces, killing of hindus etc.), though extremely deplorable, is entirely consistent with what happened in almost all the recent independence movements against illegal foreign occupation.

Ali

In response to ZZ (Reply # 82):

Dear ZZ: I tend to disagree with some aspects of your post.

Your statement: ``double standards continue to rule the arguments. bahmad and ali agree that hindu organizations did a fascist thing by protesting against MF Husain and threatening him. . . . ``

Comment: Could you please identify specific parts of my posting which you find objectionable? I would like to clarify my position.

I and Ali have not praised each other. I think, Ali is a fine young man with gift for good writing, though our positions/perspectives are diametrically opposite. We also interpret facts differently.

Regards, Bilal Ahmad

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Re: alil#76

As a hindu and an Indian, I strongly denounce what happened to your friend in Ahmedabad. There are indeed some places in India, Gujarat being one of them, where communalism has been very virulent. Similar incidents have been happening to hindus in J&K at the hand of militants and Indian security forces have committed atrocities against muslims in J&K. There is an element of bestiality in our desi nature that rears up its ugly head all over the subcontinent.

Having said that, I feel that you have a misguided notion that everything is going from bad to worse for minorities in India. The reverse is true. Irrespective of what happens politically, one thing has changed irreversibly. The economy in India has opened up significantly and it is booming. There are opportunities being created in every sector and educated folks are not having too much trouble in making a decent living. Recently I was visiting India and for the first time I saw that there was no longer any emphasis on engineering and medicine. Non traditional routes like information systems, journalism, entertainment (TV), advertising, fashion designing etc. are becoming increasingly popular and well paying. There is a strong emphasis on opening your own business. Most of my friends have started their own firms.

This economic environment is affecting everyone from all castes and religions. There is a sense of optimism and electricity in the air, as most people are sensing that there are opportunities for everyone. As a result of the expanding economic pie, muslims are beginning to enter the national mainstream in a big way and a lot of them are doing very well.

As an example, when I was visiting India, I noticed that there was a debate going on about the differences in the Urdu press in India versus the Urdu press in Pakistan. The Urdu press in India is many times more critical of Pakistan than the mainstream media. The keyword in the Indian Urdu press is ``taleem`` or education. Article after article calls for focus on education, employment and enterpreneurship. Muslim kids who have done well academically are treated like film celebraties and given tremendous coverage to motivate other muslims. This is the sign of a resurgent community that is coming back in a big way.

A sense of national unity is developing between hindus and muslims that has never been seen before. The reason is that people are realizing that hindu-muslim relations need not be a zero sum game, where if one side wins the other has to lose. We can be winners together. Muslims were completely supportive of India in the Kargil matter. There were no riots anywhere except for some very minor incidents. There were large number of muslim soldiers and officers killed in the Indian army which included Kashmiris. Whenever, their dead body came back to their home town, hindus and muslim resdents came out in record numbers to pay their homage jointly. That is progress for you. We still have a long way to go and there are problems with the Sangh Parivar etc., but there are some fundamental changes occuring in Indian society that will startle Pakistanis in the years to come.

In response to Ali1 (Reply #: 76):

Dear Ali: I wish to commend you for writing style and the clarity of thoughts. I, however, I would like to submit the following for your consideration.

Your statement: ``Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.`` Comment: I think, both myself and mitr are fully aware of the ``situation on the ground`` and we do not condone any violence of any sort on any human being in any part of the world. Violence is a byproduct of ignorance, weakness, and the inability to resolve conflicts peacefully, amicably, and justly. Peace, friendship, and justice are basic human desires and, in the case of India and Pakistan, basic human needs. Both Indians and Pakistanis can identify numerous cases of gross barbarism inflicted by the other party. Similarly, similar deplorable actions have affected people of diverse identities within each of these countries by their fellow nationals. Violence beget violence, and it has never resolved any problem permanently. In view of the situation, I said: ``We need to open the lines of communication. We still live in two essentially different worlds, where a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is created by people who are incapable of doing something better. I live in a large University town (small otherwise) in the United States where my family is treated with a lot of respect (and love) by our Indian friends. We have developed these relations over time as a result of communicating with them and by adopting a policy to maintain good relations with them. But remember, most of us are well educated people who do not like to be governed by various (un)intended actions that lead to various behavioral weaknesses (such as recourse to a policy of tit for tat). We also realize that with our views and actions we project a good/bad image of ourselves.``

Your statement: While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.``

Comment: You are absolutely right. In any society, both good and evil forces coexist. The existence of evilness does not mean that there is no goodness. Ransacking anybody`s house irrespective of class, gender, ethno-linguistic, religious, and place-based identities is a serious matter. It must be deplored and every effort must be taken such that similar actions do not repeat in future. But, the success of such efforts is more likely when we remain calm and do not get carried away with the tide of ignorance, lawlessness, violence and unfairness.

Your statement: ``While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist society [sic]``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders. And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, violent [sic] bigots with a fancy constitution.``

Comment: Indeed, there have been a lot of cases of violence against innocent citizens of India, including the Muslims in India. Dilip Kumar`s recent trouble is a case in point. Dilip Kumar was ruthlessly demoralized by the extremist supporters of BJP, perhaps with the covert and unwise support of the so-called moderate elements in the BJP. Dilip Kumar had to prove his loyalty to those who even are not loyal to the current and future well-being of their motherland. This is unwarranted and uncalled for. I am sure, good people like mitr and Ramaswamy would agree with me. Nonetheless, how do we know that a large silent majority of Indian people is really supportive of the policies of Hindu extremists who are full of hate for anything but their supporters? I have a feeling that most Indians (particularly Hindus and Sikhs ) are personally very decent human beings. We, therefore, need to act wisely and make every possible effort not to alienate them with our unwiseness. Hence, I wrote: ``We need to continue to learn more about each other for a better understanding and for our mutual enrichment. . . .Most strictly segregated people cannot understand this enrichment. So, we need to lower the walls of our segregation, not to assimilate but to develop a mutual respect for our peaceful coexistence and preservation.`` I further added: ``We . . . need to examine our history critically to learn from the mistakes of our past. One major step in this direction would be to understand the nature and sources of our conflict with the desire to resolve our differences (both major and minor) peacefully, amicably, and justly. Problems get reproduced and become bigger if we do not engage in problem solving.`` This is what has happened, particularly since the Indian Mutiny of 1857.

Regards, Bilal Ahmad

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RE ZZ # 75:

There you go mixing issues again.

Plight of minorities in India needs no debate. It is visible to all except pro-BJP elements like you who are blinded by hate and also what seems to me by an impotent rage; probably arising out of reading accounts of real and perceived injustices and atrocities committed by mughals and others.

The suffering of hindus in Kashmir, though touching in purely human terms, is no different from the fate of all collaborators of foreign occupation forces in any fight for independence.

STATESMAN #77, Please give the URL if you think a newspaper article is worth reading. No need to clutter this website.

It looks like VSNL has stopped blocking Pakistani newspaper websites; but don`t get too excited about it STATESMAN; just thank Bhagwan that your facist leaders are letting your read something other than their facist-hindu propaganda.

Ali

This just in,M. Hussain the ``Stephenapoulous ``like Nawaz aide also ex. Editor,Pakistan may have lost the MEDIA war, but seemed to have won the battle,of bringing Kashmir awake!





Pakistan emerged winner in Kargil: Mushahid Husain

KARACHI, Aug 20: Federal Minister of Information and Media Development

Mushahid Hussain Sayed has said Pakistan has emerged a winner in the

Kargil conflict. He was speaking at a seminar organized by Radio

Pakistan Karachi on the post-Kargil scenario.

Quoting the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) report,

the minister said in view of the situation Pakistan had emerged a winner

in the Kargil conflict, adding that these were the basic facts.

He said Pakistan had adopted a sensible policy vis-a-vis the issue and

that its approach was practical.

``And we have gained. We have managed to stabilize our own position and

put India on the defensive,`` Mr Hussain said.

He said Kargil had given a clear and big message. The atmosphere has

changed, and now the pressure is on India. The minister said the Kashmir

issue had been internationalized and pressure on India had increased.

He said the United States had given public commitment at the level of

its president to help resolve the Kashmir issue and resume dialogue.

Mr Hussain stated that in Kargil the Indian army had suffered a lot at

the hands of a few hundred Mujahideen.

Above all, the danger of war had been averted in the region, he added.

The minister referred to the US human rights organization Asia Watch`s

report which said the P-5 countries, namely, the US, Britain, China,

Russia and France should stop aid to India until such time as India

continued to violate human rights.

He said an influential US newspaper, Washington Post, in its July 16

issue said the main issue was India`s denial of the right of self-

determination and the denial of democratic rights to the people of

Kashmir.

Mr Hussain said on May 30, this paper had also written that India wanted

to impose its hegemony on the subcontinent.

He stated that British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary

Robin Cook had said that the UN military observers should be

strengthened on the Line of Control (LOC).

He said there could no longer be a status quo in Kashmir, and that this

issue had to be resolved peacefully and in accordance with the United

Nations resolutions and the wishes of the people of Kashmir.

Replying to a question, he said Kargil issue today was the biggest

divide in Indian politics and its election campaign.

The minister said this was perhaps for the first time that in the Indian

elections the number one issue was Kashmir. All focus will be on this

issue and the outcome of the elections will depend on it.

He referred to the Times of India report which stated that the

allegation that Pakistan had mutilated the bodies of Indian soldiers was

wrong and without any basis.

He said India had five television channels while the PTV had only one.

India has imposed a ban on the PTV, but Pakistan has not banned any of

the Indian channels. ``We are not afraid,`` he added.

The minister pointed out that in 1984 India had launched a military

operation against the Sikhs at the Golden Temple. In 1992 the Babri

Mosque was demolished under a conscious policy. In 1993 Muslims were

massacred in Bombay and in January 1999 an Australian missionary and his

children were burnt to death.

He quoted from the book Diary of Diplomat, written by a New Zealand

envoy to India, John Reid, in 1986, in which he had said Nehru had

wasted a historic opportunity to resolve the Kashmir issue.

If the Kashmir issue had been resolved there would have been a lasting

peace in the region, and the destiny of South Asia would have been

different, he emphasized.

He said the success of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is that we got the

Americans at the highest level to make a commitment.

Mr Hussain said after the Washington Declaration the focus had shifted

and the international community was saying that there should be talks to

resolve the Kashmir issue.

He said the Kashmir issue had to be resolved at the conference table and

that it had to be resolved through diplomacy.

The minister referred to regional conflicts such as Kosovo, Bosnia, the

Middle East and Northern Ireland, and pointed out that i

Dear Mitr ji, bahmad,

Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.

While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.

While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist soceity``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders.

And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, voilent bigots with a fancy constitution.

Studebaker bhai, If you are a layman like me, and not a philosopher :-) here is a story from India that will warm your heart. Bear with me.

I had a friend in the Middle East, Khan bhai, from Ahmedabad Gujarat. Khan Bhai had lost his family to anti-muslim roiting in the 80s. He had a photo album with numerous snaps of the atrocities committed by the peace loving hindus on the hapless muslim minority. You see, he was no ordinary citizen, he was an Inspector of police and would take pictures of the crime scenes he visited.

One of the photographs was of his 18 month old son, strangled with a barbed wire. I saw this picture myself. The other photograph that he never showed anyone was that of the chopped off breasts of his wife, left on his TV set like decoration pieces.

His family was killed in his official quarters which was in the midst of other offical police residences. Of course his was the only muslim family there. And of course none of the constitution abiding police officials saw or heard anything.

Enough already.

Having lived for 30 years in India, you must have heard stories like this (or seen a distorted version in some Hindi movie). Here is the heart warming part. Friends insisted that Khan Bhai send these photographs to the media and HR organizations, to expose the true face of ``ahinsa`` to the world. ``Nahi bhai``, he would say firmly, ``this is my private grief, and my private war.``

Studebaker, while you, me, mitr and jay can argue back and forth about the finer points of the Indian constitution, there are way too many Khan Bhais out there waiting for their turn. It is just a matter of time.

And the Sangh Pariwar keeps adding thousands to their ranks every year, from Kashmir to Coimbatore.

Ali

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In response to mitr (Reply #: 68):

Dear mitr: Although your posting was directed toward Ali1, I commend you for your positive thoughts and a sense of goodwill. I would like to submit as under:

Your statement: ``Most Indians are not intolerant followers of BJP.``

Comment: I wish we work together and develop, over time, a sense of the veracity of your statement. Tolerance is power. Intolerance suggests ignorance and a weakness of character. Both Indians and Pakistanis need to adopt a policy of tolerance for our mutual benefit and understanding.

Your statement: ``But the fundamental malaise characterising India and I suppose Pakistan, is that there are TWO NATIONS: the babus and the bhaiyyas.`` ``In human terms, this also means that HUMANE COMMUNICATION between these two worlds is a rarity.``

Comment: We need to open the lines of communication. We still live in two essentially different worlds, where a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is created by people who are incapable of doing something better. I live in a large University town (small otherwise) in the United States where my family is treated with a lot of respect (and love) by our Indian friends. We have developed these relations over time as a result of communicating with them and by adopting a policy to maintain good relations with them. But remember, most of us are well educated people who do not like to be governed by various (un)intended actions that lead to various behavioral weaknesses (such as recourse to a policy of tit for tat). We also realize that with our views and actions we project a good/bad image of ourselves. Like most mainstream Americans, we also care about our image.

Your statement: ``I would still say that in the realm of culture and religion, very wonderful and amazing things are also happening - as has also consistently happened historically.``

Comment: We need to continue to learn more about each other for a better understanding and for our mutual enrichment. Just think, what good Lata and Asha (among others) have brought to this world. These women, to use an Indian expression, are Devis. They have brought a lot of happiness and peace in my life. For a similar tribute to a Pakistani singer, read Ramaswamy`s piece on Reshma. I think, both Hinduism and Islam, and their followers, have enriched the people of India and Pakistan. Most strictly segregated people cannot understand this enrichment. So, we need to lower the walls of our segregation, not to assimilate but to develop a mutual respect for our peaceful coexistence and preservation.

Your statement: ``This ancient magically bounteous land, INDIA-PAKISTAN, is tired and exhausted with centuries of strife, bigotry, injustice, oppression and disgrace of truth.``

Comment: Some people are indeed tired and exhausted. We, however, need to examine our history critically to learn from the mistakes of our past. One major step in this direction would be to understand the nature and sources of our conflict with the desire to resolve our differences (both major and minor) peacefully, amicably, and justly. Problems get reproduced and become bigger if we do not engage in problem solving.

Regards, Bilal Ahmad

From Dawn, letter to the ed August 20th 1999

Kashmir: an Indian`s point of view

I am a second generation Omani of Indian origin and I am very lucky to live in the country of peace, tranquillity, and harmony under the wise leadership of His Majesty Sultan Qaboos. Sultanate of Oman due to the magnanimity of his Majesty, has no border disputes or quarrels with any of its neighbours. I have recently returned from the US and feel that I have returned to a warm paradise on earth.

I am also witness to the fact that we Hindus have never felt victimized, discriminated against, or looked down upon by the overwhelming Muslim majority of Oman in any way. Even the Pakistanis (and there are many Pakistani expatriates here) living in Oman greet the Omani as well as non-Omani Hindus with friendship, courtesy and without any communal feelings of any kind. What hurts me is that when I read the Indian newspapers, and the statements of some of the Indian leaders, I find them full of communal hatred and hysteria against the Muslims living in India. How can India claim to be a secular state when its popular leaders give out such non-secular statements? In retaliation, some fanatical Pakistani leaders make similar jingoistic statements.

The latest episode of shooting down of an unarmed non-hostile Pakistani aircraft, (whether it did or did not cross the border is a matter of claims and counter-claims and immaterial to the basic argument) the debris of which fell within Pakistani territory, is hardly likely to enhance the chances of peace.

The Kashmir problem is being dragged by India and Pakistan for the last 50 years without any solution. Hundreds of billions of rupees have been wasted by both India and Pakistan in an arms race that only benefits the makers of those arms. That money would have been better spent in feeding the hungry of both the countries. They have now also entered a nuclear race, which only spells disaster in the hands of the religious fanatics on both sides. If only that money had been distributed to the people of Kashmir then each one of them would be a millionaire today instead they have had nothing but misery. The human misery of Kashmir is no less than the one in Northern Ireland. Even that problem could not be solved by war and ultimately the solution came across the negotiating table. Let India and Pakistan sit around the negotiating table and solve this problem finally. They should learn from the example of Oman that magnanimity in border disputes brings about lasting peace and harmony that ultimately breaks down the borders forever.

In many ways, the problem of Kashmir is very similar to the problem of Quebec. In Kashmir also there is a linguistically and ethnically different population that is asking for the right to choose their future. There have been two referendums to decide if Quebec will remain in Canada or will separate. Canada does not call Quebec as its integral inseparable part. Why should India?

States of a union - and India is a union of states - stay together based on the desires of the people living in those states and no one can be forced to be a part of any union or country. That is the way of the modern world. The Indian government should also have the courage to hold a referendum in Kashmir so that the Kashmiri people can decide whether they want to stay with India or to separate from it.

Germany, England, and France fought two World Wars in which millions of people died yet today they sit together as good friends around the table of the common European community. If these warring factions of the two World Wars can live in peace and harmony then why can`t India and Pakistan? The Europeans have learned that wars bring hatred, misery, and economic regression whereas peace brings tranquillity, brotherly love, hope, and economic progress. Let the Indians and Pakistanis do the same. Let there be a free and fair referendum under the United Nations, like in East Timor, and let the people of Kashmir decide what they want to be their future.

VIJAY AJIT KESHAVJI

Muscat, Oman

Hasan Khan.

Yes. In ideal conditions to your suggestion, “There is only one solution to Kashmir issue and that is to let Kashmiris decide what they want to do: join with Pakistan, independence or stay with India. All solutions that don`t inovolve the Kashmiris` wishes will fail.” a ear could be lent to. In present, you must be kidding! Take a ride on the shuttle and try expanding the 2nd option.

Ref: Reply #77

Goyal.

I vehemently second your suggestion. Let’s join hands and do it. For these idiots our future generations will not forgive us. They will loathe our attitude that we could not live, as good neighbours. Even like a cattle herd- they do not entangle their horns as too often. Today Germany and England, the perpetual rivals have joined together to form European common market, yet keeping their singular identities.

Ref:Reply # 63

Studebaker.

My reply #57 was in response to a query from Wasiq #48 originated from my reply #47 against IMRAN KHAN THE NEXT PRIME MINISTER OF PAKISTAN BY GEORGE F.MAXIMILLIAN.

Sorry to have missed you and others.

Happy mileage!

tariqlodi.

Re: Jay # 67

I agree with Dawn`s comment below. Unlike the Indian newspapers who dare not come out of the patriotic straight jacket, Pakistani print media presents a spectrum of opinion on all subjects of national importance.

Taleban are fighting a civil war and Pakistan has no business there. However, Kashmiris are fighting a war of independence from a brutal foreign occupation and deserve our full support and sympathies.

Ali

Re. No. 66:

Dear Ali-bhai,

While I agree with you in essence, perhaps you need to qualify your comments somewhat. Most Indians are not intolerant followers of BJP. The Indian mainstream IS on the whole extremely blind, insular, bigoted, AND many of those who are apparently anti-BJP are equally blind and insular, and do not bode well for a healthy future. But notwithstanding that, one will also find a very large number of people, among the common folk as well as educated sections, who are largely free of prejudice. This last group is perhaps the silent, suffering majority - in whose name all claim to speak and act, but never quite connect to. But the fundamental malaise characterising India and I suppose Pakistan, is that there are TWO NATIONS: the babus and the bhaiyyas. There is an immense socio-economic and cognitive hiatus between these two worlds. The cognitive universe of the English-speaking, English mass media relating section exists only in its own imagination, but this section is powerful beyond measure in maintaining and benefiting from the inequitous status quo. The typical life experience of the babu is such as to keep him in a delusionary world, of law and order, knowledge, ethics, culture, while being totally ignorant of ground reality. Thus they also remain perpetually blind to, the inherent un-ethicality of vast aspects of their everyday life, because of their own location in a power structure that is highly inequitous. With growing material aspirations among this class, they are now forming the reality in accordance with their worldview that does not see beyond the tip of their own nose - in the form of a privileged island surrounded by a sea of deprivation. In human terms, this also means that HUMANE COMMUNICATION between these two worlds is a rarity.

Having said this, I would still say that in the realm of culture and religion, very wonderful and amazing things are also happening - as has also consistently happened historically, with a CITY of MAN being built steadily trans-historically. So one has the conviction that India shall yet successfully accomplish the historical, civilisational challenge of building a just, pluralist society. And the secret of this is simply the harmonious coming together, for the first time, of historically distanced peoples. The silent chorus of millions of free and empowered voices, that have forever been stilled and held from singing together, is deafening.

This ancient magically bounteous land, INDIA-PAKISTAN, is tired and exhausted with centuries of strife, bigotry, injustice, oppression and disgrace of truth. All that the children of this dear mother can aspire for is to serve her, by working ceaselessly, in whichever way possible, to strengthen peace, justice and harmony in their land.

Regards

Mitr