Kargil and the Myth of Losing the Media War
Adil Najam August 2, 1999
#65 Posted by ali1 on August 21, 1999 8:37:42 am
Dear Mitr ji, bahmad,
Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.
While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.
While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist soceity``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders.
And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, voilent bigots with a fancy constitution.
Studebaker bhai, If you are a layman like me, and not a philosopher :-) here is a story from India that will warm your heart. Bear with me.
I had a friend in the Middle East, Khan bhai, from Ahmedabad Gujarat. Khan Bhai had lost his family to anti-muslim roiting in the 80s. He had a photo album with numerous snaps of the atrocities committed by the peace loving hindus on the hapless muslim minority. You see, he was no ordinary citizen, he was an Inspector of police and would take pictures of the crime scenes he visited.
One of the photographs was of his 18 month old son, strangled with a barbed wire. I saw this picture myself. The other photograph that he never showed anyone was that of the chopped off breasts of his wife, left on his TV set like decoration pieces.
His family was killed in his official quarters which was in the midst of other offical police residences. Of course his was the only muslim family there. And of course none of the constitution abiding police officials saw or heard anything.
Enough already.
Having lived for 30 years in India, you must have heard stories like this (or seen a distorted version in some Hindi movie). Here is the heart warming part. Friends insisted that Khan Bhai send these photographs to the media and HR organizations, to expose the true face of ``ahinsa`` to the world. ``Nahi bhai``, he would say firmly, ``this is my private grief, and my private war.``
Studebaker, while you, me, mitr and jay can argue back and forth about the finer points of the Indian constitution, there are way too many Khan Bhais out there waiting for their turn. It is just a matter of time.
And the Sangh Pariwar keeps adding thousands to their ranks every year, from Kashmir to Coimbatore.
Ali
Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.
While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.
While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist soceity``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders.
And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, voilent bigots with a fancy constitution.
Studebaker bhai, If you are a layman like me, and not a philosopher :-) here is a story from India that will warm your heart. Bear with me.
I had a friend in the Middle East, Khan bhai, from Ahmedabad Gujarat. Khan Bhai had lost his family to anti-muslim roiting in the 80s. He had a photo album with numerous snaps of the atrocities committed by the peace loving hindus on the hapless muslim minority. You see, he was no ordinary citizen, he was an Inspector of police and would take pictures of the crime scenes he visited.
One of the photographs was of his 18 month old son, strangled with a barbed wire. I saw this picture myself. The other photograph that he never showed anyone was that of the chopped off breasts of his wife, left on his TV set like decoration pieces.
His family was killed in his official quarters which was in the midst of other offical police residences. Of course his was the only muslim family there. And of course none of the constitution abiding police officials saw or heard anything.
Enough already.
Having lived for 30 years in India, you must have heard stories like this (or seen a distorted version in some Hindi movie). Here is the heart warming part. Friends insisted that Khan Bhai send these photographs to the media and HR organizations, to expose the true face of ``ahinsa`` to the world. ``Nahi bhai``, he would say firmly, ``this is my private grief, and my private war.``
Studebaker, while you, me, mitr and jay can argue back and forth about the finer points of the Indian constitution, there are way too many Khan Bhais out there waiting for their turn. It is just a matter of time.
And the Sangh Pariwar keeps adding thousands to their ranks every year, from Kashmir to Coimbatore.
Ali
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#66 Posted by STATESMAN on August 21, 1999 8:37:42 am
This just in,M. Hussain the ``Stephenapoulous ``like Nawaz aide also ex. Editor,Pakistan may have lost the MEDIA war, but seemed to have won the battle,of bringing Kashmir awake!
Pakistan emerged winner in Kargil: Mushahid Husain
KARACHI, Aug 20: Federal Minister of Information and Media Development
Mushahid Hussain Sayed has said Pakistan has emerged a winner in the
Kargil conflict. He was speaking at a seminar organized by Radio
Pakistan Karachi on the post-Kargil scenario.
Quoting the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) report,
the minister said in view of the situation Pakistan had emerged a winner
in the Kargil conflict, adding that these were the basic facts.
He said Pakistan had adopted a sensible policy vis-a-vis the issue and
that its approach was practical.
``And we have gained. We have managed to stabilize our own position and
put India on the defensive,`` Mr Hussain said.
He said Kargil had given a clear and big message. The atmosphere has
changed, and now the pressure is on India. The minister said the Kashmir
issue had been internationalized and pressure on India had increased.
He said the United States had given public commitment at the level of
its president to help resolve the Kashmir issue and resume dialogue.
Mr Hussain stated that in Kargil the Indian army had suffered a lot at
the hands of a few hundred Mujahideen.
Above all, the danger of war had been averted in the region, he added.
The minister referred to the US human rights organization Asia Watch`s
report which said the P-5 countries, namely, the US, Britain, China,
Russia and France should stop aid to India until such time as India
continued to violate human rights.
He said an influential US newspaper, Washington Post, in its July 16
issue said the main issue was India`s denial of the right of self-
determination and the denial of democratic rights to the people of
Kashmir.
Mr Hussain said on May 30, this paper had also written that India wanted
to impose its hegemony on the subcontinent.
He stated that British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary
Robin Cook had said that the UN military observers should be
strengthened on the Line of Control (LOC).
He said there could no longer be a status quo in Kashmir, and that this
issue had to be resolved peacefully and in accordance with the United
Nations resolutions and the wishes of the people of Kashmir.
Replying to a question, he said Kargil issue today was the biggest
divide in Indian politics and its election campaign.
The minister said this was perhaps for the first time that in the Indian
elections the number one issue was Kashmir. All focus will be on this
issue and the outcome of the elections will depend on it.
He referred to the Times of India report which stated that the
allegation that Pakistan had mutilated the bodies of Indian soldiers was
wrong and without any basis.
He said India had five television channels while the PTV had only one.
India has imposed a ban on the PTV, but Pakistan has not banned any of
the Indian channels. ``We are not afraid,`` he added.
The minister pointed out that in 1984 India had launched a military
operation against the Sikhs at the Golden Temple. In 1992 the Babri
Mosque was demolished under a conscious policy. In 1993 Muslims were
massacred in Bombay and in January 1999 an Australian missionary and his
children were burnt to death.
He quoted from the book Diary of Diplomat, written by a New Zealand
envoy to India, John Reid, in 1986, in which he had said Nehru had
wasted a historic opportunity to resolve the Kashmir issue.
If the Kashmir issue had been resolved there would have been a lasting
peace in the region, and the destiny of South Asia would have been
different, he emphasized.
He said the success of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is that we got the
Americans at the highest level to make a commitment.
Mr Hussain said after the Washington Declaration the focus had shifted
and the international community was saying that there should be talks to
resolve the Kashmir issue.
He said the Kashmir issue had to be resolved at the conference table and
that it had to be resolved through diplomacy.
The minister referred to regional conflicts such as Kosovo, Bosnia, the
Middle East and Northern Ireland, and pointed out that i
Pakistan emerged winner in Kargil: Mushahid Husain
KARACHI, Aug 20: Federal Minister of Information and Media Development
Mushahid Hussain Sayed has said Pakistan has emerged a winner in the
Kargil conflict. He was speaking at a seminar organized by Radio
Pakistan Karachi on the post-Kargil scenario.
Quoting the International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) report,
the minister said in view of the situation Pakistan had emerged a winner
in the Kargil conflict, adding that these were the basic facts.
He said Pakistan had adopted a sensible policy vis-a-vis the issue and
that its approach was practical.
``And we have gained. We have managed to stabilize our own position and
put India on the defensive,`` Mr Hussain said.
He said Kargil had given a clear and big message. The atmosphere has
changed, and now the pressure is on India. The minister said the Kashmir
issue had been internationalized and pressure on India had increased.
He said the United States had given public commitment at the level of
its president to help resolve the Kashmir issue and resume dialogue.
Mr Hussain stated that in Kargil the Indian army had suffered a lot at
the hands of a few hundred Mujahideen.
Above all, the danger of war had been averted in the region, he added.
The minister referred to the US human rights organization Asia Watch`s
report which said the P-5 countries, namely, the US, Britain, China,
Russia and France should stop aid to India until such time as India
continued to violate human rights.
He said an influential US newspaper, Washington Post, in its July 16
issue said the main issue was India`s denial of the right of self-
determination and the denial of democratic rights to the people of
Kashmir.
Mr Hussain said on May 30, this paper had also written that India wanted
to impose its hegemony on the subcontinent.
He stated that British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Foreign Secretary
Robin Cook had said that the UN military observers should be
strengthened on the Line of Control (LOC).
He said there could no longer be a status quo in Kashmir, and that this
issue had to be resolved peacefully and in accordance with the United
Nations resolutions and the wishes of the people of Kashmir.
Replying to a question, he said Kargil issue today was the biggest
divide in Indian politics and its election campaign.
The minister said this was perhaps for the first time that in the Indian
elections the number one issue was Kashmir. All focus will be on this
issue and the outcome of the elections will depend on it.
He referred to the Times of India report which stated that the
allegation that Pakistan had mutilated the bodies of Indian soldiers was
wrong and without any basis.
He said India had five television channels while the PTV had only one.
India has imposed a ban on the PTV, but Pakistan has not banned any of
the Indian channels. ``We are not afraid,`` he added.
The minister pointed out that in 1984 India had launched a military
operation against the Sikhs at the Golden Temple. In 1992 the Babri
Mosque was demolished under a conscious policy. In 1993 Muslims were
massacred in Bombay and in January 1999 an Australian missionary and his
children were burnt to death.
He quoted from the book Diary of Diplomat, written by a New Zealand
envoy to India, John Reid, in 1986, in which he had said Nehru had
wasted a historic opportunity to resolve the Kashmir issue.
If the Kashmir issue had been resolved there would have been a lasting
peace in the region, and the destiny of South Asia would have been
different, he emphasized.
He said the success of Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif is that we got the
Americans at the highest level to make a commitment.
Mr Hussain said after the Washington Declaration the focus had shifted
and the international community was saying that there should be talks to
resolve the Kashmir issue.
He said the Kashmir issue had to be resolved at the conference table and
that it had to be resolved through diplomacy.
The minister referred to regional conflicts such as Kosovo, Bosnia, the
Middle East and Northern Ireland, and pointed out that i
#67 Posted by ali1 on August 22, 1999 12:01:24 am
RE ZZ # 75:
There you go mixing issues again.
Plight of minorities in India needs no debate. It is visible to all except pro-BJP elements like you who are blinded by hate and also what seems to me by an impotent rage; probably arising out of reading accounts of real and perceived injustices and atrocities committed by mughals and others.
The suffering of hindus in Kashmir, though touching in purely human terms, is no different from the fate of all collaborators of foreign occupation forces in any fight for independence.
STATESMAN #77, Please give the URL if you think a newspaper article is worth reading. No need to clutter this website.
It looks like VSNL has stopped blocking Pakistani newspaper websites; but don`t get too excited about it STATESMAN; just thank Bhagwan that your facist leaders are letting your read something other than their facist-hindu propaganda.
Ali
There you go mixing issues again.
Plight of minorities in India needs no debate. It is visible to all except pro-BJP elements like you who are blinded by hate and also what seems to me by an impotent rage; probably arising out of reading accounts of real and perceived injustices and atrocities committed by mughals and others.
The suffering of hindus in Kashmir, though touching in purely human terms, is no different from the fate of all collaborators of foreign occupation forces in any fight for independence.
STATESMAN #77, Please give the URL if you think a newspaper article is worth reading. No need to clutter this website.
It looks like VSNL has stopped blocking Pakistani newspaper websites; but don`t get too excited about it STATESMAN; just thank Bhagwan that your facist leaders are letting your read something other than their facist-hindu propaganda.
Ali
#68 Posted by Studebaker on August 22, 1999 12:01:24 am
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#69 Posted by bahmad on August 22, 1999 12:01:24 am
In response to Ali1 (Reply #: 76):
Dear Ali: I wish to commend you for writing style and the clarity of thoughts. I, however, I would like to submit the following for your consideration.
Your statement: ``Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.`` Comment: I think, both myself and mitr are fully aware of the ``situation on the ground`` and we do not condone any violence of any sort on any human being in any part of the world. Violence is a byproduct of ignorance, weakness, and the inability to resolve conflicts peacefully, amicably, and justly. Peace, friendship, and justice are basic human desires and, in the case of India and Pakistan, basic human needs. Both Indians and Pakistanis can identify numerous cases of gross barbarism inflicted by the other party. Similarly, similar deplorable actions have affected people of diverse identities within each of these countries by their fellow nationals. Violence beget violence, and it has never resolved any problem permanently. In view of the situation, I said: ``We need to open the lines of communication. We still live in two essentially different worlds, where a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is created by people who are incapable of doing something better. I live in a large University town (small otherwise) in the United States where my family is treated with a lot of respect (and love) by our Indian friends. We have developed these relations over time as a result of communicating with them and by adopting a policy to maintain good relations with them. But remember, most of us are well educated people who do not like to be governed by various (un)intended actions that lead to various behavioral weaknesses (such as recourse to a policy of tit for tat). We also realize that with our views and actions we project a good/bad image of ourselves.``
Your statement: While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.``
Comment: You are absolutely right. In any society, both good and evil forces coexist. The existence of evilness does not mean that there is no goodness. Ransacking anybody`s house irrespective of class, gender, ethno-linguistic, religious, and place-based identities is a serious matter. It must be deplored and every effort must be taken such that similar actions do not repeat in future. But, the success of such efforts is more likely when we remain calm and do not get carried away with the tide of ignorance, lawlessness, violence and unfairness.
Your statement: ``While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist society [sic]``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders. And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, violent [sic] bigots with a fancy constitution.``
Comment: Indeed, there have been a lot of cases of violence against innocent citizens of India, including the Muslims in India. Dilip Kumar`s recent trouble is a case in point. Dilip Kumar was ruthlessly demoralized by the extremist supporters of BJP, perhaps with the covert and unwise support of the so-called moderate elements in the BJP. Dilip Kumar had to prove his loyalty to those who even are not loyal to the current and future well-being of their motherland. This is unwarranted and uncalled for. I am sure, good people like mitr and Ramaswamy would agree with me. Nonetheless, how do we know that a large silent majority of Indian people is really supportive of the policies of Hindu extremists who are full of hate for anything but their supporters? I have a feeling that most Indians (particularly Hindus and Sikhs ) are personally very decent human beings. We, therefore, need to act wisely and make every possible effort not to alienate them with our unwiseness. Hence, I wrote: ``We need to continue to learn more about each other for a better understanding and for our mutual enrichment. . . .Most strictly segregated people cannot understand this enrichment. So, we need to lower the walls of our segregation, not to assimilate but to develop a mutual respect for our peaceful coexistence and preservation.`` I further added: ``We . . . need to examine our history critically to learn from the mistakes of our past. One major step in this direction would be to understand the nature and sources of our conflict with the desire to resolve our differences (both major and minor) peacefully, amicably, and justly. Problems get reproduced and become bigger if we do not engage in problem solving.`` This is what has happened, particularly since the Indian Mutiny of 1857.
Regards, Bilal Ahmad
Dear Ali: I wish to commend you for writing style and the clarity of thoughts. I, however, I would like to submit the following for your consideration.
Your statement: ``Perhaps an intellectual or a philosopher can make sense out of what you guys wrote, but for a layman like me, situation on the ground is a better teacher.`` Comment: I think, both myself and mitr are fully aware of the ``situation on the ground`` and we do not condone any violence of any sort on any human being in any part of the world. Violence is a byproduct of ignorance, weakness, and the inability to resolve conflicts peacefully, amicably, and justly. Peace, friendship, and justice are basic human desires and, in the case of India and Pakistan, basic human needs. Both Indians and Pakistanis can identify numerous cases of gross barbarism inflicted by the other party. Similarly, similar deplorable actions have affected people of diverse identities within each of these countries by their fellow nationals. Violence beget violence, and it has never resolved any problem permanently. In view of the situation, I said: ``We need to open the lines of communication. We still live in two essentially different worlds, where a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is created by people who are incapable of doing something better. I live in a large University town (small otherwise) in the United States where my family is treated with a lot of respect (and love) by our Indian friends. We have developed these relations over time as a result of communicating with them and by adopting a policy to maintain good relations with them. But remember, most of us are well educated people who do not like to be governed by various (un)intended actions that lead to various behavioral weaknesses (such as recourse to a policy of tit for tat). We also realize that with our views and actions we project a good/bad image of ourselves.``
Your statement: While you see ``amazing things happening in the realm of culture``; I see Bajrang Dal activists ransacking M.F.Hussein`s house because he painted a nude hindu goddess.``
Comment: You are absolutely right. In any society, both good and evil forces coexist. The existence of evilness does not mean that there is no goodness. Ransacking anybody`s house irrespective of class, gender, ethno-linguistic, religious, and place-based identities is a serious matter. It must be deplored and every effort must be taken such that similar actions do not repeat in future. But, the success of such efforts is more likely when we remain calm and do not get carried away with the tide of ignorance, lawlessness, violence and unfairness.
Your statement: ``While you hope that ``India will become a just, pluralist society [sic]``; I see that India is fast becoming a facist hindu society, where minorities have to prove their loyalty to India as and when demanded by the hindu leaders. And please don`t give me the ``actions of a few`` or ``fringe extremist elements`` bull. These people are your elected rulers today, and we will see them return with a even bigger majority, proving once and for all that India is a country of intolerant, violent [sic] bigots with a fancy constitution.``
Comment: Indeed, there have been a lot of cases of violence against innocent citizens of India, including the Muslims in India. Dilip Kumar`s recent trouble is a case in point. Dilip Kumar was ruthlessly demoralized by the extremist supporters of BJP, perhaps with the covert and unwise support of the so-called moderate elements in the BJP. Dilip Kumar had to prove his loyalty to those who even are not loyal to the current and future well-being of their motherland. This is unwarranted and uncalled for. I am sure, good people like mitr and Ramaswamy would agree with me. Nonetheless, how do we know that a large silent majority of Indian people is really supportive of the policies of Hindu extremists who are full of hate for anything but their supporters? I have a feeling that most Indians (particularly Hindus and Sikhs ) are personally very decent human beings. We, therefore, need to act wisely and make every possible effort not to alienate them with our unwiseness. Hence, I wrote: ``We need to continue to learn more about each other for a better understanding and for our mutual enrichment. . . .Most strictly segregated people cannot understand this enrichment. So, we need to lower the walls of our segregation, not to assimilate but to develop a mutual respect for our peaceful coexistence and preservation.`` I further added: ``We . . . need to examine our history critically to learn from the mistakes of our past. One major step in this direction would be to understand the nature and sources of our conflict with the desire to resolve our differences (both major and minor) peacefully, amicably, and justly. Problems get reproduced and become bigger if we do not engage in problem solving.`` This is what has happened, particularly since the Indian Mutiny of 1857.
Regards, Bilal Ahmad
#70 Posted by amit on August 22, 1999 12:01:24 am
Re: alil#76
As a hindu and an Indian, I strongly denounce what happened to your friend in Ahmedabad. There are indeed some places in India, Gujarat being one of them, where communalism has been very virulent. Similar incidents have been happening to hindus in J&K at the hand of militants and Indian security forces have committed atrocities against muslims in J&K. There is an element of bestiality in our desi nature that rears up its ugly head all over the subcontinent.
Having said that, I feel that you have a misguided notion that everything is going from bad to worse for minorities in India. The reverse is true. Irrespective of what happens politically, one thing has changed irreversibly. The economy in India has opened up significantly and it is booming. There are opportunities being created in every sector and educated folks are not having too much trouble in making a decent living. Recently I was visiting India and for the first time I saw that there was no longer any emphasis on engineering and medicine. Non traditional routes like information systems, journalism, entertainment (TV), advertising, fashion designing etc. are becoming increasingly popular and well paying. There is a strong emphasis on opening your own business. Most of my friends have started their own firms.
This economic environment is affecting everyone from all castes and religions. There is a sense of optimism and electricity in the air, as most people are sensing that there are opportunities for everyone. As a result of the expanding economic pie, muslims are beginning to enter the national mainstream in a big way and a lot of them are doing very well.
As an example, when I was visiting India, I noticed that there was a debate going on about the differences in the Urdu press in India versus the Urdu press in Pakistan. The Urdu press in India is many times more critical of Pakistan than the mainstream media. The keyword in the Indian Urdu press is ``taleem`` or education. Article after article calls for focus on education, employment and enterpreneurship. Muslim kids who have done well academically are treated like film celebraties and given tremendous coverage to motivate other muslims. This is the sign of a resurgent community that is coming back in a big way.
A sense of national unity is developing between hindus and muslims that has never been seen before. The reason is that people are realizing that hindu-muslim relations need not be a zero sum game, where if one side wins the other has to lose. We can be winners together. Muslims were completely supportive of India in the Kargil matter. There were no riots anywhere except for some very minor incidents. There were large number of muslim soldiers and officers killed in the Indian army which included Kashmiris. Whenever, their dead body came back to their home town, hindus and muslim resdents came out in record numbers to pay their homage jointly. That is progress for you. We still have a long way to go and there are problems with the Sangh Parivar etc., but there are some fundamental changes occuring in Indian society that will startle Pakistanis in the years to come.
As a hindu and an Indian, I strongly denounce what happened to your friend in Ahmedabad. There are indeed some places in India, Gujarat being one of them, where communalism has been very virulent. Similar incidents have been happening to hindus in J&K at the hand of militants and Indian security forces have committed atrocities against muslims in J&K. There is an element of bestiality in our desi nature that rears up its ugly head all over the subcontinent.
Having said that, I feel that you have a misguided notion that everything is going from bad to worse for minorities in India. The reverse is true. Irrespective of what happens politically, one thing has changed irreversibly. The economy in India has opened up significantly and it is booming. There are opportunities being created in every sector and educated folks are not having too much trouble in making a decent living. Recently I was visiting India and for the first time I saw that there was no longer any emphasis on engineering and medicine. Non traditional routes like information systems, journalism, entertainment (TV), advertising, fashion designing etc. are becoming increasingly popular and well paying. There is a strong emphasis on opening your own business. Most of my friends have started their own firms.
This economic environment is affecting everyone from all castes and religions. There is a sense of optimism and electricity in the air, as most people are sensing that there are opportunities for everyone. As a result of the expanding economic pie, muslims are beginning to enter the national mainstream in a big way and a lot of them are doing very well.
As an example, when I was visiting India, I noticed that there was a debate going on about the differences in the Urdu press in India versus the Urdu press in Pakistan. The Urdu press in India is many times more critical of Pakistan than the mainstream media. The keyword in the Indian Urdu press is ``taleem`` or education. Article after article calls for focus on education, employment and enterpreneurship. Muslim kids who have done well academically are treated like film celebraties and given tremendous coverage to motivate other muslims. This is the sign of a resurgent community that is coming back in a big way.
A sense of national unity is developing between hindus and muslims that has never been seen before. The reason is that people are realizing that hindu-muslim relations need not be a zero sum game, where if one side wins the other has to lose. We can be winners together. Muslims were completely supportive of India in the Kargil matter. There were no riots anywhere except for some very minor incidents. There were large number of muslim soldiers and officers killed in the Indian army which included Kashmiris. Whenever, their dead body came back to their home town, hindus and muslim resdents came out in record numbers to pay their homage jointly. That is progress for you. We still have a long way to go and there are problems with the Sangh Parivar etc., but there are some fundamental changes occuring in Indian society that will startle Pakistanis in the years to come.
#71 Posted by Studebaker on August 22, 1999 2:46:15 pm
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#72 Posted by bahmad on August 22, 1999 3:36:46 pm
In response to ZZ (Reply # 82):
Dear ZZ: I tend to disagree with some aspects of your post.
Your statement: ``double standards continue to rule the arguments. bahmad and ali agree that hindu organizations did a fascist thing by protesting against MF Husain and threatening him. . . . ``
Comment: Could you please identify specific parts of my posting which you find objectionable? I would like to clarify my position.
I and Ali have not praised each other. I think, Ali is a fine young man with gift for good writing, though our positions/perspectives are diametrically opposite. We also interpret facts differently.
Regards, Bilal Ahmad
Dear ZZ: I tend to disagree with some aspects of your post.
Your statement: ``double standards continue to rule the arguments. bahmad and ali agree that hindu organizations did a fascist thing by protesting against MF Husain and threatening him. . . . ``
Comment: Could you please identify specific parts of my posting which you find objectionable? I would like to clarify my position.
I and Ali have not praised each other. I think, Ali is a fine young man with gift for good writing, though our positions/perspectives are diametrically opposite. We also interpret facts differently.
Regards, Bilal Ahmad
#73 Posted by ali1 on August 23, 1999 7:09:02 am
RE: ZZ
Hindu Muslim Roiting in India.
Indian government never prints the names of those killed or injured in roiting. Muslims are always killed and their properties looted in disproportionately large numbers. ZZ, only pro-BJP hate mongers think otherwise.
But it seems that terrorist tactics by Indian muslims like bombay bomb blasts can tip the balance a bit. Otherwise, they don`t stand a chance.
Even prior to partition, muslims almost always got beaten up although they had a fighting chance. 80 hindus were killed by Sh. Mujibur Rehman and his goons in Nawakhali. He was a rising Indian Muslim League star then. Mr. Ghandhi cried himself hoarse. Simultaneously, upto 800 villages were cleansed of Muslims in Bhagalpur. Not a whimper from Bapu though.
ZZ, please stop confusing Kashmir with India. What is happening in Kashmir (atrocities by forces, killing of hindus etc.), though extremely deplorable, is entirely consistent with what happened in almost all the recent independence movements against illegal foreign occupation.
Ali
Hindu Muslim Roiting in India.
Indian government never prints the names of those killed or injured in roiting. Muslims are always killed and their properties looted in disproportionately large numbers. ZZ, only pro-BJP hate mongers think otherwise.
But it seems that terrorist tactics by Indian muslims like bombay bomb blasts can tip the balance a bit. Otherwise, they don`t stand a chance.
Even prior to partition, muslims almost always got beaten up although they had a fighting chance. 80 hindus were killed by Sh. Mujibur Rehman and his goons in Nawakhali. He was a rising Indian Muslim League star then. Mr. Ghandhi cried himself hoarse. Simultaneously, upto 800 villages were cleansed of Muslims in Bhagalpur. Not a whimper from Bapu though.
ZZ, please stop confusing Kashmir with India. What is happening in Kashmir (atrocities by forces, killing of hindus etc.), though extremely deplorable, is entirely consistent with what happened in almost all the recent independence movements against illegal foreign occupation.
Ali
#74 Posted by Truth on August 23, 1999 1:23:11 pm
Hello Ali:
The question is not what India IS - the question is what India SHOULD BE? Even now, in India the terms of the debate are completely different from Pakistan. Believe me, the BJP would LOSE votes if it called itself the Hindu Janta Party. It is not tenable in India that a party with the label Hindu Party could come to power in hte manner in which a party called the Muslim League has come to power in Pakistan. A Hindu Janta Party would get sidelined because almost ALL Indians do not believe in a religion based country. The BJP supporters believe, incorrectly in my opinion, that Hindus have suffered at the hands of secularism and they want Hinduism expressed as a matter of democratic expression. They also support Babri Masjid destruction on the grounds of it being based on the sites of a temple. I disagree with both these positions but it is important to keep in mind what the terms of the debate are: nobody of any consequence, not even the BJP, is seeking a Hindu rashtra. Some do see a supression of Hinduism which I believe is fallacious and wrong. They want to reverse this perceived suppression. This has dangerous connotations but if succesful, it will still not bring India to where Pakistan already is.
The question is not what India IS - the question is what India SHOULD BE? Even now, in India the terms of the debate are completely different from Pakistan. Believe me, the BJP would LOSE votes if it called itself the Hindu Janta Party. It is not tenable in India that a party with the label Hindu Party could come to power in hte manner in which a party called the Muslim League has come to power in Pakistan. A Hindu Janta Party would get sidelined because almost ALL Indians do not believe in a religion based country. The BJP supporters believe, incorrectly in my opinion, that Hindus have suffered at the hands of secularism and they want Hinduism expressed as a matter of democratic expression. They also support Babri Masjid destruction on the grounds of it being based on the sites of a temple. I disagree with both these positions but it is important to keep in mind what the terms of the debate are: nobody of any consequence, not even the BJP, is seeking a Hindu rashtra. Some do see a supression of Hinduism which I believe is fallacious and wrong. They want to reverse this perceived suppression. This has dangerous connotations but if succesful, it will still not bring India to where Pakistan already is.
#75 Posted by ferozk on August 23, 1999 6:13:10 pm
Re: Kashmir, India and Pakistan
Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.
Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad.
#76 Posted by tariq on August 23, 1999 7:39:10 pm
Re Amit: ``There is an element of bestiality in our
desi nature....``.
While I applaud the humility and intellectual honesty which this statement reflects, I do not agree with it. If I can think of a really crippling desi cultural feature, it is caste. In Pakistan, I have seen people been designated as ``kammi``, ``lohar``, ``tarkhan``, etc; not only to refer to their occupation derisively, but also in
reference to their allegedly low caste status. In India, I believe, things are worse. As we look down upon those who perform productive labour in society, it is not surprising that our societies remain as backwards as they are.
Communal conflict, however, is another story. Our ancestors lived peacefully, side by side in their villages for centuries. Rulers fought eachother, the ruled did not. Modern communalism is more a colonial inheritance, as well as the result of middle class competition for state patronage. Human nature (including the desi one) is amenable
to calls for brutality when certain conditions are conducive to this. For example, social inequality, presence of grievances, avialability of potential scapegoats (Ahmadis, Muslims, Jews..), and above all the presence of elites ready to exploit the situation for political reasons. In these circumstances, people like Milosovich, maudoodi, and Advani find the most fertile ground.
Milovan Djilas has said that Serbian and Croation
nationalisms were not indigenous. They were 19th century Germanic cultural imports. I think we can say the same about modern Hindu and Muslim nationalism too. The type of nationalism which
preaches that one`s next door neighbour belongs to a different nation on account of his or her religion or language is potentially deadly, and should be rejected by all decent people. This is what recent history teaches us.
desi nature....``.
While I applaud the humility and intellectual honesty which this statement reflects, I do not agree with it. If I can think of a really crippling desi cultural feature, it is caste. In Pakistan, I have seen people been designated as ``kammi``, ``lohar``, ``tarkhan``, etc; not only to refer to their occupation derisively, but also in
reference to their allegedly low caste status. In India, I believe, things are worse. As we look down upon those who perform productive labour in society, it is not surprising that our societies remain as backwards as they are.
Communal conflict, however, is another story. Our ancestors lived peacefully, side by side in their villages for centuries. Rulers fought eachother, the ruled did not. Modern communalism is more a colonial inheritance, as well as the result of middle class competition for state patronage. Human nature (including the desi one) is amenable
to calls for brutality when certain conditions are conducive to this. For example, social inequality, presence of grievances, avialability of potential scapegoats (Ahmadis, Muslims, Jews..), and above all the presence of elites ready to exploit the situation for political reasons. In these circumstances, people like Milosovich, maudoodi, and Advani find the most fertile ground.
Milovan Djilas has said that Serbian and Croation
nationalisms were not indigenous. They were 19th century Germanic cultural imports. I think we can say the same about modern Hindu and Muslim nationalism too. The type of nationalism which
preaches that one`s next door neighbour belongs to a different nation on account of his or her religion or language is potentially deadly, and should be rejected by all decent people. This is what recent history teaches us.
#77 Posted by bahmad on August 23, 1999 7:39:10 pm
Dear Friends:
After the Noakhali massacre both Jinnah and Gandhi issued a joint proclamation (Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Mahatama Gandhi, p. 529). Both leaders said:
``We deeply deplore the recent acts of lawlessness and violence that have brought the utmost disgrace on the fair name of India and the greatest misery to innocent people, irrespective of who were the aggressors and who were the victims.
We denounce for all time the use of force to achieve political ends, and we call upon all the communities of India, to whatever persuasion they may belong, not only to refrain from all acts of violence and disorder; but also to avoid both in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to such acts.``
What attract me most, in the present context, the part where both urged the people to ``to avoid in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to such acts`` of violence. Do we really pay any heed to our founding fathers? Are we careful in our speech and writing?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
After the Noakhali massacre both Jinnah and Gandhi issued a joint proclamation (Robert Payne, The Life and Death of Mahatama Gandhi, p. 529). Both leaders said:
``We deeply deplore the recent acts of lawlessness and violence that have brought the utmost disgrace on the fair name of India and the greatest misery to innocent people, irrespective of who were the aggressors and who were the victims.
We denounce for all time the use of force to achieve political ends, and we call upon all the communities of India, to whatever persuasion they may belong, not only to refrain from all acts of violence and disorder; but also to avoid both in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to such acts.``
What attract me most, in the present context, the part where both urged the people to ``to avoid in speech and writing, any words which might be construed as an incitement to such acts`` of violence. Do we really pay any heed to our founding fathers? Are we careful in our speech and writing?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#78 Posted by bahmad on August 24, 1999 7:35:01 am
In my reply #92, kindly read ``After the Noakhali and Bihar massacres. . . . ``
I regret for my sloppiness.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
I regret for my sloppiness.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#79 Posted by jay on August 24, 1999 7:35:01 am
Here is a paradox for the modern thinkers of pakistan. To call a person belonging to a sect of islam KAFIR has been declared an offence punishable by 15 years of imprisonment. I can reasonably conclude that the term Kafir is a highest form of insult in pakistan. So what is the status of REAL KAFIRS, that is the people who can be legally called KAFIRS with out invoking the penal sanctions in pakistan.
The following is from DAWN. Read before it is edited out
LAHORE, Aug 22: Branding any class of people or any individual belonging to any sect of Islam ``Kafir,`` is being made an offence punishable with 14 years` imprisonment plus fine.
Punishment for passing derogatory remarks against holy personages and the Ahle Bait is being raised from three years to 14 years.
The following is from DAWN. Read before it is edited out
LAHORE, Aug 22: Branding any class of people or any individual belonging to any sect of Islam ``Kafir,`` is being made an offence punishable with 14 years` imprisonment plus fine.
Punishment for passing derogatory remarks against holy personages and the Ahle Bait is being raised from three years to 14 years.
#80 Posted by bahmad on August 24, 1999 10:57:33 am
In response to Jay (Reply #: 94):
Kafir is derogatory word. It was used for the ``Kuffar-e-Mecca`` some 1400 years back. This word is often loosely and unwisely used by people who, in my view, lack an adequate understanding of the true spirit of Islam.
Jay has raised an important question. But, could Jay explain why the law makers have passed such a law? Is there any wisdom (or its lack of) involved in it? Is there any good that such a law could bring? Do we need to amend this law? What kind of conflicts should we anticipate if the law makers try to amend this law?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. In the present context, we need to exclude the word ``Kafir`` from our vocabulary.
Kafir is derogatory word. It was used for the ``Kuffar-e-Mecca`` some 1400 years back. This word is often loosely and unwisely used by people who, in my view, lack an adequate understanding of the true spirit of Islam.
Jay has raised an important question. But, could Jay explain why the law makers have passed such a law? Is there any wisdom (or its lack of) involved in it? Is there any good that such a law could bring? Do we need to amend this law? What kind of conflicts should we anticipate if the law makers try to amend this law?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. In the present context, we need to exclude the word ``Kafir`` from our vocabulary.
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