Harappa

My last visit to Pakistan was in December of 98. My brother being always so adventurous ended up seeing everythinf from Mohenjendaro (sp?) to Khyber Pass, and of course I got stuck doing the usual Lahore Fort, Badhsahi Masjid, another beautiful masjid by Akbar and Thatta. My aunt didn`t think it appropriate for me to go with a bunch of guys :( It was so sad to see what little protection Pakistan Cultural and Archaeological resources get, let`s not even mention the environmental. Working as an environmental consultant on a billion dollar fiber-optic cable project in CA, I compare how much this country values ``possible`` cultural resources and Native American Burial grounds (NOW, I know of the terrible annhilation of the Native Americans)--to Pakistan`s disregard for it`s extremly rich history. It was so dissappointing to see how one can buy a tomb slab or just pick it up after the 60 year old guard leaves or in front of him--at the huge and beautiful burial site in Thatta. Then on my visit to I was dissapointed to see a British sculpture exhibition in the Lahore fort, where the artist made everything out of trash, and his sculptures juxtaposed against the elegance of Pre-Colonial architecture, made me think of how inferior we`re constatnly trying to see ourselves in relation to the West. I wish something could be done about protecting these resources. Is there an organization that addresses the issue?

Read that you`re in grad school at U of Penn. How long have you been there? Are you from here or from Pakistan? How was working on HARP? Just wanted to know, hope you don`t mind.

Misbah

aas -

good question. although, im not certain the poem was supposed to encourage a verdict of any sort.

chalay, aap hi batadijay kay may koun hou. akhir hum bhi tou dekhayn kay dunya kya souchti hai humaray baray may. laykin iss baat ka zaroor khayal rakh-yai ga - the moment you tell me who i am, i will know who you are as well.

adaab arz hai.

So what`s the verdict?

Who are you?

Dear Uzma:

I read your poem with great interest. I visited Harappa last January. Although it was a fleeting visit for want of time, but it was the culmination of a desire cherished over half a century. I had always wanted to make connection with Harappa. Munir sahib, whose generosity knows no bounds, made it possible for me to travel from Lahore to Harappa and back in one day (He wouldn`t even let me pay the bus fare!). As a student of cultural geography I marvelled at the achievements of the ancient people, and as a person of Indian origin, I felt so privileged to be in the company of a wonderful friend from Pakistan. I could not help but wonder about the ties that bound both of us, as we treaded the ground of the Harappan people who had built this civilization four millennia ago. Thank you for your poem. Maybe one day we can talk about the archeological aspects of Harappa as well.

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Uzma :

Thanks for the references.

I spent the first 26 years of my life in Hyderabad, in the mixed community of Malakpet, south of the Musi river and close to the historic Charminar. Apart from the Salar Jung Musuem, I hope you did have a chance to visit the Gol(lla)gonda fort. The converted Nizam`s palace is located in Begumpet and reputedly housed Salar Jung`s favorite woman of leisure.

Uzma, I hope you had an opportunity to visit the Bazar`s close to Charminar. An astonishing number of stalls selling stone bangles, pearls, diamonds (some genuine, some fake) and crowds of eager shoppers in burqah`s and bindi`s creating a carnival like atmosphere every day !

Your poetry was touching but I hope you were spared the chidhood agonies of separation... Best friends leave to become mohajjirs in a foreign land and others turn their faces away because they are now majlis and I am a kaffir....

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Uzma:

Love the way you end by saying adab arzhay. But correct me if I am wrong -- shouldn`t it come in the beginning?

I do not know of any of Nizam`s palace that was converted into a school or college. However, several `palaces` of Hyderabadi aristocrats were converted into schools and colleges.

One of Nizam`s palace, King`s Kothi I believe it was called was repossessed by the government for non-payment of taxes and turned into a hospital. How Nizam acquired K.K. is another story.

The Nizam sent his personal architect on a tour of Asia and Europe before asking him to design the Usmania University, in the thirties. It has a unique blend of Hindu, Muslim and Roman architectural influences. Some of the scenes and a major dance sequence in the Indian film Nikah was shot there.

Another university that has incorporated interesting architectural styles is the Aga Khan Medical University at Karachi.

Digression: Couple of other interesting buildings:
One, Vivikinanda`s (hope I have spelled him correctly) Church/Mandir whatever, outside of Calcutta and Gaudi`s still under construction cathedral in Barcelona.

Have asked around. Will let you know of any interesting web sites later.

regards

(or perhaps adabarzhay)

re: Ram

As to the evolution of man, my understanding was that he evolved there and then migrated into Asia and Europe. Agreed, there is no, as of yet, record of a civilization in Africa, but that does not preclude its existence. It may not be a civilization, but it could form of a human settlement with some rudimentary technological developement; ability to fashion to tools, a primative language, a class structure etc.

I was not defending Uzma. She is far capable and more articulate than I would in arguing her viewpoints on this topic. As to ``unearthing``, I do that myself occassionally and personally, it is just an excerise in introspection. Plato once said that an unexamined life is not worth living and that is what ``unearthing`` means to me. I often ask myself these questions: who am I, what do I want, where am I coming from and where am I going to? I find that the more a person delves into their inner sanctum, the better they are able to understand as to what motivates them! That is what ``unearthing`` means to me. To ask myself questions that explains my actions and what I should do with my life. Hope this explantion helps....

No. I was not suggesting that I am direct desendent from the people of Harappa. I was merely suggesting that it would interesting to find out just how common we really are and how we share similarities with other people.

I think you just made my point by your references to the DNA. That is what I was suggesting that we all a bunch of mixed DNAs and we evolve through mix marriages and migrations, there will no pure racial characteristics left in anyone of us.

Let me clarify some of the confusion (again).

1. I was never interested in driving the point ``oldest civilization``. An anology is it was like saying I have zillion questions.. I wouldn`t expect anyone to count the questions. It explains how amazed I am about Harappa rather how accurately I put it in. Both the terms `oldest` and the definition of `civilization` were contested unnecessarily.

2. My sole contention was from the subtitle ``unearthing myself``. Uzma has given an explanation. Uzma has also mentioned the subtilte was given by Chowk. The use of the word `unearthing myself` in this context of archeology can`t mean anything else other than searching for `my lineage` unless clearly explained otherwise.

3. My reference to the identification of Hindu symbols was more to disprove the point #2 above that the Harappans could easily be someone other than the ancestors of Pakistani. That is to serve as an evidence. But it was not meant to prove they were Hindu ancestors.

Some one asked who is Ram. Who else a ``RAM`` could be? I am sure it was not sita who asked the question.

RAM#39 KAFIR#38,first a prologue ................

Moenjodaro needs massive conservation, say experts

By Our Correspondent

LARKANA, Aug 23: The director of Unesco, Islamabad, Dr P.K. Kasaju and

Ms Nora De Laet, UNV culture and development expert, visited Mohenjodaro

on Monday to assess the needs of this ancient city of the Indus Valley

civilization. Accompanied by former director general of the Department

of Archaeology, Pakistan, Dr Ishtiaque, they stayed at the site for two

days and visited its various sections.

Dr P.K. Kasaju said that Unesco looked after six such cities of Pakistan

and it was his childhood dream to see the magnificent site of

Mohenjodaro.

No other Unesco director posted in Pakistan had ever visited

Mohenjodaro, he said and further added that he would covey his

observations and findings to the Unesco headquarters to explore possible

avenues of help to conserve the giant site.

He also visited the museum and said that being an international heritage

the site demanded help from both Pakistan and Unesco but Pakistan being

the principal state should take lead in saving its relics from further

devastation.

Dr Ishtiaque, who opted for early retirement from the Department of

Archaeology, said that they were there to assess the degree of damage

and prepare a report to suggest measures to save Mohenjodaro from

increasing water-logging and salinity.

The people at the site briefed them on the condition of the site after

the closure of the Authority for the Preservation of Mohenjodaro (APM).

Dr Ishtiaque said that currently there was no need for further

excavations, rather the focus should be on the conservation of the

uncovered portions.

RAM#39 & KAFIR #38

I really find both of you compelling,because you are apolegetic of limits of our knowledge as of to-day.You both meticulously avoid stepping on other experts,while have a lucid,rational deductive process of coming to your desired conclusion.But because of my biase of argument that ``AGE does not confer wisdom necessarily``I dont see the same desire as you RAM to find that connections to anything that ancient.Also if genetic pool is only(AS quoted by you) 4-Africans,Indian,mongol&white(???),Then we can safely exclude all three except Indian because Indian & pakistani look alike!Besides Hindus are the first to let us know that bulk of us are converts(True or false,i dont care or bothered by that theory,for i will never research that statement ever)Any invasion by foreigners brought only may be armyful of peoples,which certainly couldnot have the capacity to sort of ``replaced the population totally completely & radically.`` burying old underneath.If DNA sample coul ever be gotten from bones ,i know it would not be able to distinguish which one in the Bn. of Indian & millions in B Desh to W. Pakistan it closely resembles.Just a curiosity,RAM,judging by your enthusiasm what in your identitity both national & religous is the missing gap.?????

Ferozk, #36.

As far I know, no civilization has been found in Africa prior to the Indus Valley/Mesopotamia. But, I do not rule out the possibility we may find something. Remember in Africa man evolved (it is disputed too). It would have been tens of thousands of years before he realizes we will do better if we live together in an organized way.

You have restated most of the points what I have said. Yes, it is difficult to draw a stright line to the Harappans. If you are defending Uzma, then you might well explain what is ``unearthing myself`` means. I read it as Uzma thought Uzma had a direct line. You forgot one possibility that the present day locals could be total strangers to the Harappans with no mixing at all. Harappans could have been wiped out in toto in a natural disaster, the invading barbarians could have killed them all, they would have all ran away from Harappa on their own fearing the invaders or looking for greener pastures. `Unearthing myself` indicates you are the one who are emphasizing on a `direct lineage from Harappans`.

Linkage to an old civilization are many fold given that people mix.

Genetic lineage: Genes get mixed up a lot, but as the technology advances we would be able to tell who mixed with who. A Mongol, an African, an Indian and a white man have different traits that can be distinguished by analysing their DNA composition. If some one managed to get some DNA from a Harappans many of this questions can be answered including how much mixing we have acquired afterwards. You also have to remember our Indian subcontinent society do not have voluntary genetic mixing, that is we tend to inbreed and don`t marry someone strange. Only when invasions take place it gets mixed.

Cultural lineage: People tend to adapt certain cultural values. Inspite of how much we mixed we would be able to tell who is adapting those values.

You can also track them back with various other things.. but not worth discussing now, like, language, signs, art, etc.

Re: Uzma

Thanks for your thoughtful response. Your humility and open-mindedness about the nature of your profession are admirable for an academician (and rare!).

Re: civilization

Why do so many people seem concerned with which civilization is the oldest? As if proving that will somehow confer superior status on the people who claim to be its inheritors? My Chinese friends say China is the oldest, Middle Easterners and Persians say that Mesopotamia and Sumeria are the oldest, Egyptians say theirs is the oldest, Indians say Harappa is the oldest, etc. What does it matter? Age does not necessarily confer wisdom. Many of the so-called `uncivilized` peoples of Africa, Native America, and Australasia lead much saner and less destructive lives (both psychologically and environmentally) than their `civilized` counterparts. The agricultural revolution may have been the worst development in the history of this planet, as it has led to human civilizations out of touch with the natural world and ignorant of basic human needs.