Of Boylove and Boylovers

star,

yer wrong.

aziz. so are you. cuz acording to your defintion i became baligh at 19..and star according to yours, lets say i did `wajib` namaz a couple more years than i should have.

this is not the issue at hand so lets not focus on it...drop it boys.

rizvi.

Re: PM

``Waheed, Your unflattering invective seemed to be based on the presumption that: (a) children are ``not mature enough to understand complex emotions…````

Hey, putting aside all the liberal, civil, left/right wing issues including how old was ayesha, btw in my opinion which has nothing to do with the issue at hand, the fact, remains that

YOU are a grown, adult, clever, stronger man, who likes to get jerked off by kids.

You seem to keep missing the point that a child is incapable of making complicated, rational, adult decisions, thats why he/she is a child and is going through the process also known as ``learning``,

I am an adult and my own experience tells me that when I was 12, which was 7th or 8th grade, I was in a much different emotional, rational, or sexual stage than when Mr. Smith went to college.

``I submit that society complicates the emotion with regard to sex. Sex can be enjoyed for a number of reasons, ranging, I`d say, from

the purely physical to the spiritual.``

What is this crap...?

1-800-spiritual-sex...??? are you looking for an endorsement from society to ratify both your mental and physical sickness...that OH the society complicates sexual pleasure or enjoyment, so ``I, being PM, say, let me put some more kids in my lap, and should be allowed to fondle them, Oh I bet, they will enjoy it..I guarantee it``

To deny adolescents any of these emotions because we think they`re not ready is simply patronising and, moreover, betrayal of sheer ignorance of a species` history replete with traditions accepting of, and sometimes extolling, childrens`s sexuality (in the inter- as well as intra-generational setting)

TO DENY...????? you pervert, why don`t you say , TO ALLOW YOU...instead...

Even if I think really hard about this historical traditions...once a pervert always a pervert, a pervert in 5th century equals a pervert in the 21st ...comprende...??? simple math...but on a very serious note, there is ``instinct`` and then there is developement of course, on some lines of civilization, evolution, progress... but then the question is , why only stop at have sex with childern, why not start EATING them too, hey, some species in the animal kingdom do that too...look it up...

``Secondly, if you`d bothered to read my personal account without blinders, you`d have found that, although I`m generally supportive of the notion of

loving inter-generational sexual activity of most kinds. I haven`t had the opportunity to express my feelings physically in anything more than occasional hugs.

*The classroom isn`t exactly the best place to make out, you know!)``

Well since now you have put it that way, I think I let you have ``other opportunities`` to relieve youself...you intellectually blinded jack ass...!!!

``Still, assuming I did go the extra step someday, it would be when I was reasonably sure that it wasn`t going to harm him in the long run.``

Spare me the god damn assumptions... lets keep it factual. This being established by your admission that you like to get off from young boys....how in //f */ *// hell do you know that it wouldn`t harm him, are you now psyhic as well....?

``And how could I expect to reach reasonable assurance? Well, judging from how he felt about it, even considering the possible experiences he would

have later in life (if he were in the West) that would suggest that when he was enjoying stroking and being stroked, he was actually being `abused`--no matter how good he felt.``

Well la dee freak`n da...hey, sicko, wake up, we are talk`n, you and a child, a child by default is innocent, he/she cannot relate to sex, love, rationale, apathy, hate, sympathy, deceit etc, as we later ``LEARN`` to understand, exploit and use to our advantage or disadvantage...

This part of my reply is for all the others here....

I sense a lot of response, ranging from very academic to very ``paindoo headed`` like myself, but what I see is a one sided account people....

An account of an adult, who, is trying to justify or rationalize his mental disability, while, only in one remote instance, he , PM, suggests NOMI to us...I think Nomi is totally irrelevant to this entire freak`n debate, Nomi, btw in my humble opinion doesn`t know, his head from his ass...!!! Nomi, is impressionable, growing up, hormonal, confused, a transient from adolescence to adulthood...is very vulnerable to ``external conditioning`` what ever this //f/ *// man says might, ``shape his direction``....? which he may or may not accept of reject later in life, [ a totally diff discussion ]and then we have people like aatish`s friend, who are also irrelevant in the same sense, to me Both are IDENTICAL< in substance and in nature, why does, one ``enjoys it`` and the other gets ``blushed and afraid``...? now that needs to be explored more...in my opinion, for the sake of arguement, I`ll call aatish`s friend, ali..., PM, wants us to believe that Nomi, likes it, well, Nomi is at such a threshold, that Nomi, can probably experience a sensation, or a feeling, but does that mean he ``likes it``....define love at 12, 16, 20, and then redefine love again at 25, 35, 45...??? and probably Nomi, has been ``cajoled, coached, influenced, led to believe`` oh, there is nothing wrong with this, once the ``confusion`` in Nomi`s mind has been diffused Nomi makes his own sense out of it...predominantly, like other instincts

where Nomi gets, hungry, or sleepy, or wants to take a dump, or is afraid...etc etc, the cognition or understanding does come in stages...what is sex to a 5 year old, a little boy smooching a little girl at someones wedding is cute, probably a kodak moment, but a an adult kissing a 12 year ...??? your thoughts...here...

Every parent, at one stage or the other talks to his childern about ``good touching`` and ``bad touching``...why...? you think all parents are homophobs...?

Now lets go to Ali, fearful, embarrassed, more confused, threatened....? how come....?

As this disgusting man would like to give us more ``reasons`` otherwise in ali`s case ....which I would really like to hear..

And how come, after all his ditriabe about ``Adult, physical and spiritual sex bull`` we don`t have more accounts from Nomis and Alis of this world....??? what the hell is wrong with Ali in this picture...? how come he has suddenly gone into a cave of sorts...does he even know, that this is neither wrong nor right...? but PM only likes to give it to those who tend to enjoy it, I guess, now PM would like us believe that, Ali, doesn`t know what Ali is missing...huh..?

How many Nomis are there? or how many Nomis have come out and said to their peers, oh, btw I am absolutely in LOVE both emotionally and sexually with this man who is 35...and I have a grip on this relationship...?

So how come, all the accounts even spread over the context of history comes from Adults, saying Oh, I was in love with this boy and that boy and we were sexually active...and Not from boys who become adults...?

I wonder if PM had a bigger penis and if he could take it up his own ass, would he fall in love with himself and call it a physical and spiritual sexual utopia...?

SAY YOU, SAY ME

Lionel Richie

(Chorus:)

Say you, say me; say it for always

That`s the way it should be

Say you, say me; say it together

Naturally

I had a dream I had an awesome dream

People in the park playing games in the dark

And what they played was a masquerade

And from behind of walls of doubt a voice was crying out

Say you, say me... (Chorus)

As we go down life`s lonesome highway

Seems the hardest thing to do is to find a friend or two

A helping hand - Some one who understands

That when you feel you`ve lost your way

You`ve got some one there to say ``I`ll show you``

(Chorus)

So you think you know the answers - Oh no

`Couse the whole world has got you dancing

That`s right - I`m telling you

It`s time to start believing - Oh yes

Believing who you are: You are a shining star

(Chorus)

Say it together... naturally.

Stop! In The Name Of Love

The Supremes

(Brian Holland/Lamont Dozier/Edward Holland, Jr.)

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Baby, baby

I`m aware of where you go

Each time you leave my door

I watch you walk down the street

Knowing your other love you`ll meet

But this time before you run to her

Leaving me alone and hurt

(Think it over) After I`ve been good to you ?

(Think it over) After I`ve been sweet to you ?

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Think it over

Think it over

I`ve known of your

Your secluded nights

I`ve even seen her

Maybe once or twice

But is her sweet expression

Worth more than my love and affection ?

But this time before you leave my arms

And rush of to her charms

(Think it over) Haven`t I been good to you ?

(Think it over) Haven`t I been sweet to you ?

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Think it over

Think it over

I`ve tried so hard, hard to be patient

Hoping you`d stop this infatuation

But each time you are together

I`m so afraid I`ll be losing you forever

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Stop! In the name of love

Before you break my heart

Baby, think it over

Think it over, baby

Ooh, think it over baby...

Feroz,

Interesting obvservation. However I think invoking the welfare of our children is more of a last-ditch effort by the liberals to come up with some semblance of a rational rebuke to PM within the context of their value system. Unfortunately,

it`s severly inconsistant, and therefore unconvincing. To be more specific, liberals are not in the habit of formulating opinions based on exagerated circumstance or hyperbolae.

I think PM successfully pointed out that boy-love need not imply molestation. Fear of molestation alone does not justify condemnation of PM`s behavior in so much as fear of rape justifies condemnation of hetrosexual relations. I`m affraid if we want to condemn PM, we MUST be much more dogmatic and much less rational. Simply put, there is NO RATIONAL reason why we should all condemn PM.

saaf-go,

Yes, interesting point. I personally don`t understand why rationalists adopt any moral position at all. Sodomy, beastiality, pedastry, incest: why not? Science offers us no defense against proponents of such behavior. Mother nature is a real b *itch that way! This is why I challange her every day...long live dogma.

When I read your article I feel you are right. I have not seen much in the responses that present strong arguments against such practice. You have very carefully responded to all the objections one might have to such forbidden love. I must say that you did reach and touch me.

These same people who passionately opposed `honor killings` are actually supporting such treatment of people like you. They want to kill you and shut you up to keep the society clean (their definition of clean). As one of the Pakistani senators said on honor killings `when there is a question of honor, there is no room for discussion`. I think for most of us the matter of such behavior is like what the matter of honor is to those who support and do `honor killing`.

To those who say that what happens when a boy becomes a man and is not physically attractive. I should ask what happens when the spouse gets old and ugly or loses breasts to cancer or becomes impotent?

Despite agreeing with you when I look at my son, who would be 12 years old some day, I feel it is wrong. I think my reasons, as digit explained, are also rooted in centuries old dogma.

I think societies are built on dogma. Why should we not sleep with our mothers and daughters? Why should we be monogamous? (As for those who would present medical reasons, I submit that life is not about being subservient to nature, it is about conquering it. We do defy nature everyday). Such dogma has become building block of my behavior. We restrain from having sex outside of a marriage, even though it may be pleasurable and non-harmful for the partners.

I would like your opinion on such issues. And how are they different from the one that you presented?

rizvi:

even in jafri fiqh... the ages are approximations... an 11 yr old girl if she hasnt had her period .. is not baligh

cheers,

*

Zehra,

``Baloghat`` or ``Baaligh`` in arabic doesn`t mean hitting puberty only. It is a person who is mature both sexually and mentally. According to the true definition, I am not sure a girl can be Baaligh at 9 !.

Re: PM

``Dear Fozia,(reply #5)

What ``despicable act that has ruined countless young lives`` are you referring to?

I chose to reply to this one only because you seem to have hit on what I think is the first problem people have when thinking

of pedophilia, that is ``Acts`` of despicable nature. Let`s lay it out clearly: Is ``sodomy`` the first word that springs to your mind

when you hear ``pedophilia`` or ``boylove``?. If, after reading my article, it still is, I guess no amount of convincing will change

your perceptions. ``

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

The reason why myself and others have problems with your ``platonic pedophelia`` is that we are all very familiar with the nature of ``romantic Love``. When a man and woman who are in platonic romantic love see each other *alone * for increasing periods of time, the relationship will inevitably turn into a sexual one - inside or outside of marriage. Your claims of keeping your ``boy love`` as purely romantic and platonic are rather hard to swallow. Your feelings for the boys are of ``crushes`` and attraction and as such myself and many others are not going to naively believe that this is all that there is to it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

``Still, let me say it again: The pedophilia I speak of is not merely about sex, lady. Not any more than

romantic love is. Equating the former with child abuse is tantamount to equating the latter with rape.``

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This is an illogical analogy. You are mixing pedophelia - which puts an impressionable child in a ``relationship`` with an adult and a romantic relationship between a consenting adult man and woman as essentially the same thing.

As you are fully aware - a child does not have the judgement capacity and emotional maturity to be in a ``romantic`` relationship. These children are easily manipulated and vunerable to an adult.

It`s a question of power: the same can occur in an adult relationship where one party is in a position of power over the other: e.g boss/employee. That is why this relationship *could * be viewed as harassment while another relationship between two consenting adults wouldn`t be.

Re: AmirM

It`s one thing to become aware of the existence of pedophelia to work on ways to end this abuse and another to listen someone write an essay claiming that under his self described ``special circumstances``, it`s ok for him to engage in ``boy love``.

Just because the auther is obviously very intelligent and has a good command of language, doesn`t make his actions any more acceptable.

What if we were to have an article written by an equally articulate man or woman extolling the virtues of ``honour killings``? I`m sure if we were to all ``open`` our minds and think like Saima`s mother we would all understand better why she would want her daughter shot, and why this world is a much better place with Saima dead than alive. Would it make it any more acceptable?

Would we then just quietly let such things happen?

Regards,

Fozia

Bina,

If you`re not fine with what PM practices, more power to you. Neither am I. In fact, I`m not comfortable with many things. Take homosexuality, for example. I suppose I could raise your same criticisms against any article endorsing a sexual liberalism that`s out of touch with my own values.

BUT given Chowk`s past policy towards posting articles, how exactly is this article any different? I find their policy in deciding to post this article very much consistent with their past decisions. I personally find it repugnant, but it *IS * consistent.

You accuse the author of many things, but anyone with half-a-brain will agree that it *was * sincere, and the author raised many, many valid points. I see no reason to accuse him of anything malicious. I think he`s seriously misguided, and if he gets caught and punished for his acts, I wouldn`t care less. But that`s besides the point.

He`s not a liar, and I don`t think he`s a fraud.

Why are the liberals so against this article? It`s so...out of tune with their purported value systems. I have my excuse. What`s yours?

I wasn`t surprised that chowk put up an article like this. I was, however, surprised at the reaction it got. I should be pleased...but hypocrisy never is pleasing. It`s abundantly clear that the ``liberals`` on this board are simply

mindless Americanna-worshippers. Oh well...when in Rome...

Arif, you raise an excellent point - why exactly should this article be banned or otherwise not included in Chowk? The Chowk Staff has already given their perspective on the issue, let me see if I can add anything useful to say.

Let`s forget about where anyone stands on the issue of pedophelia, that some find it morally reprehensible, that it harms children, etc. etc. Let`s look at the merits of this article from a literary point of view, and also from the point of view that articles on Chowk are meant to educate and enlighten.

Without going into lengthy details, I have grave doubts about the merits of this article as a literary piece. In my opinion, it is not one of the most moving examples of prose I have ever seen in my life.

Has this article enlightened or educated the audience about the topic? I think that living in South Asia, we are aware that pedophelia and child molestation are one of our society`s greatest ills. If that article has opened everyone`s eyes to it, great. But I think this issue could have been handled far more delicately, given its sensitive nature.

I would far rather see an objective article on this subject than an impassioned plea for acceptance by someone who is a practicing pedophile. In that sense, I think the Chowk Staff has failed in its objective - ``1. Discussion on this issue would create awareness that could help rather than hurt``. If it has clarified the issue for anyone, or if it has forced people to rethink their stance on pedophelia, that is certainly something, but is that ``help`` that has truly come without ``hurt``?

Many readers have expressed their sympathy and understanding for the author and his plight. I am afraid that each time I think about this, I think of the hurt of a person who`s been a victim of pedophelia, or the parents of such a person, coming across this article. Yes, life is not pretty, issues and wounds will be touched everywhere, including on Chowk, but this to me seems unnecessarily cruel.

Again, I am not a part of Chowk Editorial Staff and I am sure that they discussed the article for a long time before deciding to publish it - I do think they handle their role with maturity and responsibility. But I cannot say that I feel this is a piece that does Chowk proud. Out of the hundreds of articles that are up on Chowk, this is the only one that I have felt this way about.

- Bina

The decision to publish the content was based on two reasons:

1. Discussion on this issue would create awareness that could help rather than hurt

2. We have a responsibility and we must demonstrate that even under the risk of criticism

We dont consider this as a freedom of expression issue. Our reaction was no different from our readers. We simply reacted by sharing this with all the readers in the hope that some good will come out of all this. Our objective has never been to scandalize but to evoke awareness on a ``real`` issue. We hope and pray that our choice will enable parents and individuals to better deal with such occurrences in their lives. In due course [we hope], the discussion on this issue will contain enough information that someone, somewhere, will find important answers in the article and its interactions.

starmarlboro..

didnt say they were Right..said that they were practiced. and i was looking more to aziz786`s gallant response to ayesha being 18 when married..she may or may not have been, thats not the issue..child brides exist and did exist. we like to cover up and uncover things in the past to suit our needs. makes history not count for much, does it?

the ages i got from jafri fiqh. not clear cut but a line drawn nonetheless.

rizvi

I am afraid I disagree with Bina et al on the issue of censoring.

Although I concur with regards to the conclusions drawn on the tastefulness (or rather lack of), and I also agree on the issue that the author is attempting to justify the unjustifiable, I cannot accept that anything that causes us offence should be censored. Everyone has a right to be heard, no matter how crude, how offensive, I think Chowk did the right thing.

Fozia: mention realities in our lives that society refused to admit.

surely, Fozia, that is the whole point, that the author felt it necessary and appropriate to present a reasonable defence and let the `jury`, the general public consider the veracity of his argument.

Incidently, I am impressed by the authors eloquence and self assurance and his attempt to legitimise, what is perceived by the majority to be the most horrendous activity conceivable, but dude, your rhetoric notwithstanding, nothing will change people`s perception of what is right or wrong on this matter. All those analogies, all those historical facts do not lend credence to your argument. If anything, they tarnish the images of the historical characters you cited.

Best Regards,

Amir

Well, out of context means ``out of context`` !

There is no connection with comparing your acts to the Prophet`s life. The Prophet (PBUH) married Ayesha (RU). I do not want to bring religion beyond that.

There is very deep irony here. Surprisingly you did not comment on the Teacher /Student myth that I cared to quote. Let me refer to some of the great teachers Sheikh Saadi and Hazrut Ghous-ul-Azam are the few that I have been reading since my childhood. Coming from a family of Educationists, I can write a detailed analysis of the effect of teachings in a student`s life. That is why I used ``Irony``repeatedly.

In fact, I have taught JUST for a semester and I can well realize how easy it is to mould the mouldable brains of youth. That is the time when children seek guidance. U quoted Prophet (PBUH)`s second wife just to validate your narrative so that the write-up should be well accepted. You forgot the emphasis Islam has posted on ``Education`` and ``The Respect of a teacher``. That is where I felt quite bad that you lack the sense of responsibility (As it appears) but rather than admitting it you are trying to validate your points by bringing in long and unending statements from every ``Kona`` of the world.

In my humble opinion, you know yourself that your actIONs were not justified and you are trying to create a ground where you make the readers say, Oh, justified! Had you been so comfortable with your actions, then you would never have chosen a thesis to support your arguments. Well, let me correct myself here. Thesis are written, but on a new discovery or some experimentation one performs and it yields remarkable results.

(The Phds can help me here, I am only an M.S) Otherwise a murderer and honor killer can come and narrate a story how their expression of emotions resulting in killing are JUSTIFIED.

Just to let thee know I am not trying to add fuel to the fire. You may be one of the most intelligent person on the face of earth and may have some brilliant or let`s assume all the brilliant students in your class, I am sure you will care to make a positive difference in their lives with your thoughts. Not leave them with a bad taste.

God forbid, imagine yourself being a father and reading this narrative from your son`s teacher! Sometimes, even the teachers need words of wisdom.

On ANOTHER note, I also feel the writer may be trying to test the liberals on Chowk. What is the extent of liberalism they will tolerate ?

Note: I guess you are confusing me with a Maseeha (Doctor) on board who was helping her patient. I have yet to develop that heart to see a person in pain.

Thinking, if I faired well with my thoughts in explaining what I intended ?

(?_?)



Anyway,

Take Care

re PM

one more thing: not initiating sexual overtures, but responding to them doesnt let you off the hook. your position (as teacher) and your age (older than your students) gives you more power and responsibility. after all, if the kid makes overtures, you can always say no.

i am curious to hear more about the allusions you made to papua new guinea and native american cultures. please give more detials. thanks.

re zahra

pm`s use of the hazrat ayesha analogy is completely appropriate.

regards