Love in the Time of Kargil

Dear My Kumar,

Namaste...I just finished reading your article ``Love In The Time Of Kargil`` You surely make quite a point in your statements and you, I`m sure will be of help to many Pakistani & Indians concerning both countries and

,war,marriage,etc.I really liked your article, was glad to have the opportunity to read it. The only thing that bothered me was the way you slandered the American people. I, myself am an American, though I`m of Italian descent, with many friends that are Pakistani & Indian can only believe what I have been told from both sides concerning this arranged marriage subject. I do not feel it is correct for any of us to judge and generalize a race by only a few`s view point or comments on anothers Country & their religious belief system(IE:Marriage,Etc)Though I have been told quite a few things concerning this arranged marriage deal & some bad things concerning Pakistan & India, does not mean I will ever judge all of you for what a few or some may have done wrong & may continually be doing so. We are all born of 1 God, created in His image. I believe in ``Love, Peace & Tranquility`` I thank God for my heart & thoughts. I`m not nor will I ever be a racist towards mankind. You are one man, I am one woman, but with the voice of only 1 many changes, thoughts and differences can be made. Thank you for your article, only let us learn that we are not here to judge one another, but to love one another & live in unity.

Sincerely, *Yana *

bina

`...and we all know that we can invent flying machines but when they fail for whatever reason, down we plunge - our bodies do not suddenly sprout wings in order to save us from certain death!).`

does that mean that youve never flown/do not fly on aeroplanes ;-)

and you still havent answered my question my friend i didnt ask why islam doesnt consider a marriage between a muslim woman and a non muslim man islamic what i asked is why you wouldnt marry a non islamic man or is that your reason because you think your marriage wouldnt be seen as islamic if so then i have to say that that seems a pretty flimsy reason to me id also like to say that no matter how you cut it the fact as you see it that muslim men can marry non muslim women but muslim women cannot marry outside their religion is as far as i can see sexist and wrong

oh and my friend says what she did is none of your concern either ;-)

djiin ;-)

Djinn:

I really don`t want to go over ground I`ve already covered - I have already stated the generally accepted rules about marriage between Muslims and non-Muslims as I understand them (and we all know that we can invent flying machines but when they fail for whatever reason, down we plunge - our bodies do not suddenly sprout wings in order to save us from certain death!). But, as far as the question about myself is concerned, I would not marry a man until he converted to Islam. I would consider a marriage to a non-Muslim as not a valid Muslim marriage otherwise. Whatever your friend did is not really my concern and I don`t want to waste the energy on debating something that really has no relevance to you or me. I am only answerable for my own actions!

- Bina.

bina

i have no sympathy for the jws they criticise all other religions and claim godly and biblical authority to so do they break up families they discourage their adherents from seeking a university education they claim only a select predetermined number only of their religion will get to heaven im giving them too much credit calling them a religion theyre a cult plain and simple but i digress

i have a query concerning something you said here sometime earlier about not being able to marry a non muslim man recently a muslim friend of mine got married to a non muslim man and there were no conversions involved she still considers herself a `true` muslim and im sure youd not disagree that she has a right to do so if you see no problem with my friends marriage- (whether you see it as an islamic marriage or not is moot my friend was married in a masjid under full islamic rites so try telling her her marriage was not an islamic one)-what id like to know is why do you think islam prevents you from marrying a non muslim i know you already replied to a similar query from rishi by saying you have to accept certain limitations and you used a flying analogy that rishi refuted well (and you didnt respond to) but i do hope youll humor me i dont want to be precious about this but i would like to know does this also mean that youd never date a non muslim or would you if only it was understood that it could never lead to marriage or could it lead to marriage if he converted

thanks a bunch

djiin

Djiin,

Are you kidding? Do you think I`d go around like a Jehovah`s witness - I see them in Karachi, usually a man and a woman, walking along the streets, and I feel sorry for them. At any rate, I have never felt the need to go knocking on people`s doors and convincing them that they need to believe in Jesus or they`ll go to hell. In fact, on a site today I was reading that it is unlawful for any Muslim to say that another Muslim will go to hell, or to call any other Muslim a non-Muslim for any reason. Boy, wish our government leaders would pay attention to that.

Bina.

bina

whatever you do please dont come to my door bearing religious propoganda i mean literature whenever jehovahs witnesses come to my door i try to engage them in theological and philosophical debate but all those lemmings want to do is fob off their magazines and pamphlets on you for a small contribution of course as if they were the last word in everything buts thats another story

ive been rereading on liberty but since your reading time is currently being engaged by dead russian american writers light of my life fire of my loins and all that naughty stuff shame on you as a good muslim should you be reading such things anyway i came across this you might find it of interest

`And while, in the morality of the best Pagan na- tions, duty to the State holds even a disproportionate place, infringing on the just liberty of the individual; in purely Christian ethics that grand department of duty is scarcely noticed or acknowledged. It is in the Koran, not the New Testament, that we read the maxim--``A ruler who appoints any man to an office, when there is in his dominions another man better qualified for it, sins against God and against the State.`` `

i mustve missed that when i read the quran might give it a second look who knows

and if you see any fishes riding bicycles, let me know, ok

djiin (not djinn)

Djinn:

Yeah, I`m beginning to sound like one of those born-again Christians, aren`t I. Sorry, my worldview does include God, but don`t worry. I haven`t been praying for you ;-) Less patronizing now?

- Bina.

bina

`I believe in a God that is a fair judge, and I hope that people like you find favor with him`

oh my goodness no please bina read that aloud and see how patronising that sounds well intentioned though it may be people like me oh dear dont worry about people like me bina well be ok its people like you i worry about what will you do when you leave this world and realise that this is it ;-)

`not everyone has the intelligence or even the opportunity to be able to ``think`` about things in the way that you or I can - and I hope those people are not penalized for their limitations either.`

i was thinking more of the people who *do * have the intelligence and opportunity but refuse to use it or use it to come up with bogus conclusions simply to further their own ends and support their dogmas surely you know such people i certainly do and they annoy the hell out of me

djiin (not djinn)

ps check your mail

How unfortunate that happy instances like this one degenerate into book thumping, chest beating sermonising event whether the book is Quran or anything else. This is a marriage between two human beings and power to them to have the courage to break out of the narrow die cast moulds of religious bigotry and do what everyone else should be doing. Breaking out of their self imposed prison and be free. I wonder if Allah and Brahma are fighting over territory or the souls of human beings? We certainly are!

Congratulation Amitav and Mona and may the power be with you.

bina

`I believe in a God that is a fair judge, and I hope that people like you find favor with him `

oh goodness no please read that aloud bina and try to fathom how patronising well intentioned though im sure it is that that sounds people like me oh goodness im just glad you said hope instead of pray please dont pray for me an exercise in futility even if god does exist dont worry about people like me bina well be ok i just worry what will happen to you when you leave this world and find out this is all there is ;-)

`As for a believer who swallows everything without thinking - well, I suppose technically they are following the rules but of course they are missing out on the intellectual and spiritual sides of the quest. Then again, not everyone has the intelligence or even the opportunity to be able to ``think`` about things in the way that you or I can - and I hope those people are not penalized for their limitations either.`

i was thinking more of the people who *do * have the intelligence and opportunity but refuse to use them surely you as i do know such people they sure irritate the hell out of me

djiin (not djinn)

ps check your mail

Djinn:

No, no, please don`t cry! I liked what you said a great deal and a lot of it resonates with me. I believe in a God that is a fair judge, and I hope that people like you find favor with him - actions and intentions being the most important part of a person`s ``goodness``. As for a believer who swallows everything without thinking - well, I suppose technically they are following the rules but of course they are missing out on the intellectual and spiritual sides of the quest. Then again, not everyone has the intelligence or even the opportunity to be able to ``think`` about things in the way that you or I can - and I hope those people are not penalized for their limitations either.

And you`ve made me interested in rereading John Stuart Mill`s Treatise again - I read it once in college and can`t even remember the opening words for the life of me... if you have an electronic copy, can you send it to me at bina@xiber.com?

Ferozk: You can get in touch with me at bina@xiber.com

Hurray for a peaceful debate!

politics and religion politics and religion ah well in for a penny

re bahamad

i see this getting nowhere you claim i am not sympathetic and i supose i cannot be inclined to diasgree but do not think i am singling out islam i feel the same way about christianity and from what i know of hinduism i feel the same way about it as well i do think though that i have been or tried to be logical and coherent we will probably end up arguing over sematics like what taking things out of context means all id like to say is that when people talk about taking things out of context as far as spiritual texts go they usually mean you have to consider the time in which they were written ie things were different back then which flies in the face of those who say the message is timeless and relevant to our modern world either you believe lock stock and barrel or you dont none of that revisionist stuff permit me finally the liberty of saying that your hints such as they were were not from the muslim perspective but a muslim perspective as im sure bina would tell you there is no one perspective or is there see what i mean i hope we can agree to disagree my friend

re bina

`Let me ask you: what is the source of virtue, if not God or a spiritual being/creator? or if there is no God? (I`m just curious to know what you think).`

curiosity killed the cat you know but i will indulge you as you have so kindly indulged me

as an humanist atheist i believe that god does not exist but this does not grant me free license to do as i please with no fear of consequences rather it places on me and all other humans whether they believe in god or not a duty to my fellow man firstly to live a life that does not in any way endanger or impinge upon his that is the bedrock of my morality which is based upon i suppose if youre looking for a reference john stuart mills treatise on liberty which basically argues that once my actions harm no one else they shold not be disallowed or interfered with by the state of course one can argue among other things the meaning of the word harm

but apart from not doing things that would harm i am also duty bound to do that which would help exactly what is debatable but in general i would say help end or at least partly relieve human suffering in all forms and ways the source of this virtue is humanity itself we must decide as a society or socieites common goods we must work to achieve eg ending hunger crime war abuse of women and children illiteracy celine dion and we must stop bothering with such unimportant inconsequential issues like what we wear and what we eat and who we have sex with

too often i hear so called religious people say things like we cannot end suffering it is gods will or i know it is unfair that children get aids but god knows best or he is suffering because of the sins of his father and such nonsense we are all responisble for each other and whether god exists or not we have a duty to help one another as best we can surely a loving caring god would want that more than adhering to dogmas and singing his praises all the time which to me makes god seem egotistical

`I don`t think God ever promised us a world in which there would be no evil - that is for the next world, if you`re a believer in life after death (if you`re not, whoops!).`

see thats just it i dont believe in a next world i think this is it heaven and hell all in one so we have to make do with what we have even if there is a god and an afterlife i cant see how he could argue with what i have said

`If we contend that there IS a god, then I don`t think I can agree with your supposition. If there is no God, then yes, it`s probably possible. But that wouldn`t make much sense would it... LOL.`

but surely you can agree with me if i say that god if he existed would prefer a humanist atheist who arrived to his (dis)beliefs by using his god given intellect to reason and ponder and reflect rather than the so called devout believer who blindly swallowed all that he was told without thinking for himself i say so called meaning of course not you from what i have read in your posts here you are obviously fair minded and intelligent not to mention a damned fine writer i loved his gift why you are a believer is beyond me but i wish you good luck in your self described lifelong task to unearth whatever it is you are looking for as for me i think i have unlike you and bono found what im looking for i see it every time i look into the eyes of another human being i believe in humanity in all its strengths and frailties i believe in lots wife who looked back ok before i get all sentimental and misty eyed here i shall endeavour to take my leave

a bientot

Re: Bina

I am extermely sorry for this tangent, but could you tell me where I can send you an e-mail asking a couple of questions, which might be of interest to you!

They concern womens` rights in Pakistan. I think, I can be of some assistence to you and the cause of women/minority rights in Pakistan. There is a possibility, which I am exploring at the present time, and if it works out, I would sincerely appreciarte yours, Shandana`s and others help, in this matter, to better familarize myself with the role of Pakistani women and their concerns on this issue.

Sincerely,

In response to djiin (Reply # 70).

Dear djiin:

In my reply # 64, I requested you to refrain from taking things out of their context. I also provided you some hints to understand the background and wisdom of Surah 5 51 from the Muslim perspective.

I think my point was very clear and I will not ``reinterpret the text for . . . [you] again and make further revisions and qualifications. . . .`` Permit me to say that Islam is both simple and complex, as life is both simple and complex, and we cannot understand complexity without paying sufficient attention to its understanding. A ``sympathetic`` critique of Islam (or any other religion) is necessary before oubting/challenging the real wisdom of Islam (or any other religion).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Rishi:

Islam does not require a woman to cover her face in front of a man. That injunction was meant for the Prophet`s wives and family only. Other women who choose to do it are going above what is required. I do not practice hijab.

By the way many of the very harsh hadiths concerning women came from a man whose other hadiths regarding every other topic but women were ALL rejected! Only the ones about women were accepted... makes you wonder, huh!

``All i am arguing about is for you to not be judgemental about another`s ation ... My contention is , it is not upon you to decide what is islamic and what is not for something that does not involve you. And i loathe to veer away from this line.``

Can I ask you why you have judged me as being judgemental? (I`d really like to know why you take such a personal interest in my beliefs and how I relate to other people) I don`t recall saying that Mona or Jawahara or anyone else will burn in hell for marrying non-Muslims... All I recall is stating the rule about marriage in Islam. It is not up to me to decide what is Islamic, as you state, but I do have to follow Islam as I see best, and that will include making *some * decisions... I do believe very strongly that Islam has to be practiced in actions as well as philosophy, and that includes prayer, fasting, charity, and the like.

Oh, and I thought some more about the surgery issue. Don`t forget that one of the most important things when God judges someone is their intention. As TQS has pointed out, when saving a life, the issue of uncovered breasts would become irrelevant. And also you must look at the intention (niyat). Does a woman with breast cancer specifically choose a male doctor so that she can show him her bare breasts in an attempt to entice him? I don`t think so...

Djiin:
Yes, my friend, I agree that you can interpret anything in any way that you want to. There`s no arguing there. People`s perceptions, experiences, prejudices and desires can make them argue that a snake is actually a dog or that fire feels cool and pleasant to the touch!

``what it is in essence that has you (i assume) a devout and practising muslim?``

I`m not sure I could qualify myself as devout... I don`t wear hijab, remember... *smile *... I guess when confronted with people who gave me the same arguments about Islam (it`s evil, it oppresses women, you hate non-Muslims don`t you?) I held on to a very basic belief: that the hallmark of Islam, in my opinion, was peace, tolerance, and the way of moderation. And that I believed very strongly in a fair and just God. I would not follow a religion that I felt was otherwise. Keeping that in mind at all times, I endeavoured to dig deeper until I found answers that satisfied me. And that`s a lifelong task, and I will probably be digging till I die... but the process is a rewarding one, as long as I remain patient and trust that the answers will be revealed to me when I am ready to understand them (in this life or the next!).

``and would you agree that a person can live a virtuous and very moral life completely free of religion and even god and be no less in gods eyes than a devout believer?``

If we contend that there IS a god, then I don`t think I can agree with your supposition. If there is no God, then yes, it`s probably possible. But that wouldn`t make much sense would it... LOL.

Let me ask you: what is the source of virtue, if not God or a spiritual being/creator? or if there is no God? (I`m just curious to know what you think).

Anarayan:
``Even considering a single God, He/She must be a real sadist to have made such a cruel world. How do you explain the childen born with AIDS, paralysed and all the healthy ones who don`t have enough to eat ? This is just the tip of the iceberg.``

I hear what you`re saying. It is hard to comprehend these things. This morning I read an account of the survivors of the Sabra and Shatila Palestinian refugee camps (remember?), and what I read made me want to retch... same goes for when I read about the Bosnians, or the Jews in concentration camps... how can God allow such things to happen?

There is true evil in the world, and it exists to test us, try us, and also teach us about the difference between good and bad. The world contains much duality, and evil vs. righteousness is just one of those dualities. I don`t think God ever promised us a world in which there would be no evil - that is for the next world, if you`re a believer in life after death (if you`re not, whoops!).

And then, there is suffering, but I`d like to hope there is no such thing as needless suffering. Although we all must go through some sort of pain and difficulty and trauma in our lives, it is there not to torture us, but to strengthen us, teach us, and purify us too, and those around us. Find me someone who has suffered and not touched ANY SINGLE PERSON on the planet with his or her suffering (regardless of time, geography, etc)... and then I would agree that my theory is nonsense! If you have read an account of someone dying in an earthquake, being a victim of AIDS, or any other tragedy, and it has moved you even just a little bit, and you then have compassion for people, well, then those people`s suffering taught you or changed you in some way... and that is all part of the plan. Though that is an idealistic way of looking at it, I agree - but the only one that lets me sleep at night.

Peace to all!
Bina :)

re bina

you always seem to get to me before anyone else does

`I don`t think God thinks Christians and Jews are ``not just people``. `

nor do i but the verse in contention surely makes it seem that way doesnt it

`Seems like you have a bone to pick, my friend, you are seeing everything in a very negative light and your posts are pretty obviously indicating that you aren`t very open to instead trying to see things positively.`

you misunderstand me the point i am driving at which you seem to agree with is that even the seemigly simplest and unequivocal of scriptural texts can have a multitude of interpretations (thou shalt not kill to use the ten commandments you brought up yet not a single major religion officially denounces the death penalty because also an eye for an eye but then jesus said turn the other cheek and you see what i am getting at)

too many schisms too many sects too many versions of texts too many interpretations too many too many i have spent years trying to see things openly and be positive i have studied i have prayed i have reflected and i have come to the conclusion that religion is of no use to me and it beats me how it could be of any use to anyone who has bothered to even consider these things

perhaps youd like to tell me what it is in essence that has you (i assume) a devout and practising muslim

and would you agree that a person can live a virtuous and very moral life completely free of religion and even god and be no less in gods eyes than a devout believer if you can then id be happy to call this discussion quits

(I love Lauryn Hill, though, doesn`t that song kick ass?) :)

sure does

but check out macy gray the album macy gray on how life is she kicks even more ass than lauryn

re tqs

`I?m not saying that no one should interpret Quran. If you want to interpret Quran do your homework first. Put in the effort, time, energy that takes years and years (decades) of training, education, experience, and knowledge, wisdom, intellect, and scholarship. Once you have achieved that level, you can interpret it. When we have a problem in understanding Quran, we go to the scholars of Islam. In the 1400 years history of Islam, scholars are well known and well accepted throughout the Muslim world.`

silly me here i was thinking religion was for all and the religious texts were meant to be read and understood by all rich or poor simple minded or intellectual because we are all equal in gods eyes arent we not but i guess we all need phds in theology from the yale divinity school with post doctoral work done in the fields of islamic science and god alone knows what else and need to be old before we can read and understand the quran or the bible or whatever text you care to mention in early times the catholic church fought tooth and nail not to have the bible translated from latin to the language of the people lest they find out about the meek inheriting the earth and all that good stuff your reasoning sure echoes those times

re saaf go

`If by sending prophets and scriptures, god intended to confuse people, he (or is it she? has done it masterfully. If not, he/she has failed miserably.`

succinctly put

and a good note on which to end